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ande
February 24th, 2005, 11:08 AM
One topic of great interest to us all is

"What do you need to do to have a major swimming breakthrough?"

"What do you need to do to significantly improve your swimming times over one season?"

Do you have any specific, nitty gritty type suggestions.

I think it's really easy to fall into ruts, to just show up and go through the motions rather than seizing the moment while we train.

Any one have any thoughts on what we need to do to significantly improve?

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=6979

gull
February 24th, 2005, 06:17 PM
I'm familiar with the question (I ask myself this regularly), but I don't have an answer. Last spring I improved 25 seconds in the 500 (Jan. to May) but have not been able to swim faster since then. Maybe I'm not training enough to offset the effects of aging. Or maybe there is a physiological limit as to how close I can get to the times I swam 25 years ago. Or maybe I just need to move back to Walnut Creek (near where I grew up) and train with a good coach.

ande
February 25th, 2005, 12:14 PM
I believe most people have the potential to significantly improve, a good question to ask yourself is

What am I NOT doing in my swimming training that I could or should be doing?

Begin with

How many times a week are you training?

How far do you go in each practice?

How hard and fast do you go?

Do you have any training partners who are as good or better than you?

Are you splitting your race correctly?

did you taper?

did you shave?

are you wearing a fast skin body suit in races?

how good was the pool you swam in?

how psyched were you before and during your race?

are you making any technique mistakes you could improve?

how close are you to your ideal body weight?

how strong are you?

Ande


Originally posted by gull80
I'm familiar with the question (I ask myself this regularly), but I don't have an answer. Last spring I improved 25 seconds in the 500 (Jan. to May) but have not been able to swim faster since then. Maybe I'm not training enough to offset the effects of aging. Or maybe there is a physiological limit as to how close I can get to the times I swam 25 years ago. Or maybe I just need to move back to Walnut Creek (near where I grew up) and train with a good coach.

LindsayNB
February 25th, 2005, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Last spring I improved 25 seconds in the 500 (Jan. to May) but have not been able to swim faster since then.

Do you attribute that improvement to anything in particular?

gull
February 25th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
Do you attribute that improvement to anything in particular?

I started training more seriously in October of 2003 (after going through rehab for my shoulder). I increased my yardage from 1500 to 3000 yards/workout over several months. I was consistent with my dryland program (still am). I added more endurance work as well as race pace sets.

Ande--good questions. I'll get back to you on that--don't have time right now.

ande
February 25th, 2005, 05:22 PM
glad you like those questions

hope they help you figure out what you need to do to breakthrough and improve
look forward to reading your replies

anyone else here hoping to breakthrough?

ande


Originally posted by gull80
I started training more seriously in October of 2003 (after going through rehab for my shoulder). I increased my yardage from 1500 to 3000 yards/workout over several months. I was consistent with my dryland program (still am). I added more endurance work as well as race pace sets.

Ande--good questions. I'll get back to you on that--don't have time right now.

waves101
February 25th, 2005, 06:18 PM
I find that I need to "learn to swim fast". By this, I mean most of the time you are building up in the season to a final meet. In this build up time most of workout is focused on endurance but then in the final 6 weeks before the meet I switch to "learning to swim fast". Taper is the ultimate test but I find that periodically I need to continue to swim beyond the final meet. When I do this my base is set at a whole new level and the times drop accordingly.

Seagurl51
February 25th, 2005, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by ande


anyone else here hoping to breakthrough?

ande

I'm hoping to see my times drop dramatically so I can make the team at the college I am transfering too. Problem is dramatically translates to about 20 to 30 seconds. I'm glad you posted this thread though, I'm hoping to get some good ideas about how to get my times down.

~Kyra

gull
February 25th, 2005, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by ande


How many times a week are you training? Six.

How far do you go in each practice? 3000 (I only have an hour on weekdays).

How hard and fast do you go? I reach close to max HR on race pace sets, but I might be doing too much endurance and not enough speed work.

Do you have any training partners who are as good or better than you? No.

Are you splitting your race correctly? Lately my 500s have been evenly split, maybe going out too slow.

did you taper? Sort of. Sets with more rest. No weights.

did you shave? No.

are you wearing a fast skin body suit in races? Legskin.

how good was the pool you swam in? Pretty fast, I think.

how psyched were you before and during your race? More nervous than psyched.

are you making any technique mistakes you could improve? Definitely (two beat crossover kick, for one, if you consider that a mistake).

how close are you to your ideal body weight? Pretty much there, I think.

how strong are you? Could be stronger, but working on it.

ande
February 25th, 2005, 07:35 PM
that's true, as you get closer to competition, if you compete in the sprints, you need to have speed.

very often in the 50 and the 100 who ever turns first at the 25 is going to win the race.

to develop speed you need to do stroke drills and some very fast, 15 meter, 25's, 50's, 75's, and 100's

you need to get used to coming at the wall faster and turning with more speed.

At the 1991 Masters meet in Nashville, I went 20.87 in the 50 free. That same year Robert Peel went 19.83. After he did that I interviewed him asking how he trained.

He said he'd been lifting weights, playing basketball, and doing a little swimming. On a whim he entered a swim meet and went 21.6 in the 50 free, he was shocked so he started training a little more, he felt he didn't have time to go through a training cycle, so he just concentrated on speed. Mainly doing doing 12.5 and 25 sprints really fast with plenty of rest.
he swam in another meet and went 20.6 after training for 4 or 6 weeks, then he went to masters nationals and went 19.83.

Robert wound up training for the 1992 Olympic Trials, i think he made top 8 and went 22.83 50 LCM.

the point I want to make is that the people who are swimming really fast, like Trip Hedrick and Richard Abrams, do have talent, but they are also training to swim very fast.

In 1991 - 1992 I wound up going
50 LCM FR 23.65 and
50 SCY FR 20.52

the 23.65 was my lifetime best time, I did it 5 years after I finished college on less than 3,000 yards a day.

ande


Originally posted by waves101
I find that I need to "learn to swim fast". By this, I mean most of the time you are building up in the season to a final meet. In this build up time most of workout is focused on endurance but then in the final 6 weeks before the meet I switch to "learning to swim fast". Taper is the ultimate test but I find that periodically I need to continue to swim beyond the final meet. When I do this my base is set at a whole new level and the times drop accordingly.

ande
February 25th, 2005, 07:38 PM
I suggest you spend your summer training the the best program you can find

ande


Originally posted by Seagurl51
I'm hoping to see my times drop dramatically so I can make the team at the college I am transfering too. Problem is dramatically translates to about 20 to 30 seconds. I'm glad you posted this thread though, I'm hoping to get some good ideas about how to get my times down. ~Kyra

ande
February 25th, 2005, 08:09 PM
One of the keys to a break through season is

THE REASONS you want to breakthrough.

I had a break through season in the summer of 1984.

that summer I went from

21.0 to 20.5 in the 50 y Free
46.4 to 44.7 in the 100 y Free and
50.6 to 49.1 in the 100 y Fly.

One of the reasons I broke through is
I HAD TO.

In the spring Eddie Reese told me
if I didn't make National cuts.
He wouldn't let me back on the team in the fall.
I quit swimming in April, 1984 for a whole month.
In early May I felt like I had more to prove,
I didn't want to quit
so I started training to make Nationals and
earn a spot on the team for the Fall of 1984.

If you really want to break through
Set a goal, and
Find the reasons why you must,
Then remind yourself of those reasons
just before you train and while you train.

Create a new self image of
who you hope to be and
what you hope to do.

Then every moment in practice,

act as if you already are
what you most want to be. But
don't just think it and
don't just say it
PROVE IT BY THE WAY YOU TRAIN

ACTING AS IF
IS POWERFUL STUFF.

This alone will help you perform at a higher level and
will help you handle training fatigue.

I hope you breakthrough,

Ande

Seagurl51
February 25th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by ande
I suggest you spend your summer training the the best program you can find

ande

Idaho's not exactly a swim capitol for good programs. Any ideas of what I can do on my own?

~Kyra

ande
February 25th, 2005, 11:07 PM
exactly,
my point is why spend the summer in idaho
trying to train yourself
why not spend the summer in a different town with a great swimming program, like austin or some place where an awesome team trains, and work your but off with a great coach and fast team mates

ande


Originally posted by Seagurl51
Idaho's not exactly a swim capitol for good programs.
Any ideas of what I can do on my own?

~Kyra

Seagurl51
February 26th, 2005, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by ande
exactly,
my point is why spend the summer in idaho
trying to train yourself
why not spend the summer in a different town with a great swimming program, like austin or some place where an awesome team trains, and work your but off with a great coach and fast team mates

ande

That's something I hadn't thought of. One question though, how much would it cost? I'm a college student so that limits my options. Know of any good places with good swimming programs that are cheap to swim and live?

~Kyra

ande
February 26th, 2005, 01:10 PM
don't know what it would cost
depends on where you went and
your situation once you got there

if you had a host family
a family who had a daughter in the same program as you

you might be able to stay somewhere for free
though you might have to pay for some meals and such

what are the good program near idaho
how about the university of Utah in SLC?

you can do anything you set your mind to
how determined are you?

anyone else out there wanna breakthrough?


Originally posted by Seagurl51
That's something I hadn't thought of. One question though, how much would it cost? I'm a college student so that limits my options. Know of any good places with good swimming programs that are cheap to swim and live?

~Kyra

kaffrinn
February 26th, 2005, 07:16 PM
the point I want to make is that the people who are swimming really fast, like Trip Hedrick and Richard Abrams, do have talent, but they are also training to swim very fast.

ande [/B]

Trip Hedrick wrote a very interesting article about his training in the last edition of Minnesota's masters newsletter, if you are interested. I found it very inspiring and helpful; since I do not have regular pool access this year, I have been doing more dryland training.

You can read it at www.minnesotamasters.com, just click on the Newsletter or Old Sternwheeler link.

ande
February 26th, 2005, 08:45 PM
thanks that's an excellent article http://www.minnesotamasters.com/newsletter/sternwheeler.pdf


Originally posted by kaffrinn
Trip Hedrick wrote a very interesting article about his training in the last edition of Minnesota's masters newsletter, if you are interested. I found it very inspiring and helpful; since I do not have regular pool access this year, I have been doing more dryland training.

You can read it at www.minnesotamasters.com, just click on the Newsletter or Old Sternwheeler link.

hooked-on-swimming
March 5th, 2005, 06:22 PM
Talking about break-throughs, I HAVE to share my today's experience with everyone, 'cause I have never been happier with my results since I started swimming.Anyways, today all of a sudden I was swimming like I did not for a long time.I cut my number of strokes from 15 to 14 per 25 m. free which I could not do comfortably for about at least 3 months, my butterfly FINALLY came together , felt awesome and I flew(well, for me) vs. two days ago. My body kinda woke up all of a sudden and it felt like I was a totally different person!!!I have no idea what that has to do with, maybe because I finally decided to stop killing myself and took a day off yesterday after about 9 straight days of work-outs(I know, that is crazy, but I love swimming, I should really give myself more rest, though :-))). So it could have been a mini-taper for me.Or there is another thing I thought about which is weird and I highly doubt it: today the water was extremely warm compared to the usual temperature.Could that have had any effect on my muscles, maybe some relaxing factor, but just like I said I do not think so ...
Well, I just hope that I simply improved and that tomorrow I will still see 14 strokes per 25m and a graceful butterfly...It can't run away from me now, can it?lol

Scansy
March 6th, 2005, 10:27 AM
The water temperature works the opposite for me. If it's warmer I don't swim as well. The pool I swim at is kept at about 82F - but one time the heat didn't work and it dropped to about 75F. Other than the initial shock, it was great. I felt like I could swim forever! Stronger, faster too.

ande
March 6th, 2005, 04:58 PM
pool temp definitely effects your performance
especially in longer swims

i prefer pool temp a little on the cool side
my masters group often trains in the diving well which is kept a little warmer for the sake of the divers

when the main set arrives i tend to take off my cap
if we're swimming long and hard

ande


Originally posted by Scansy
The water temperature works the opposite for me. If it's warmer I don't swim as well. The pool I swim at is kept at about 82F - but one time the heat didn't work and it dropped to about 75F. Other than the initial shock, it was great. I felt like I could swim forever! Stronger, faster too.

ande
March 11th, 2005, 11:36 AM
Isn't there anyone else here who wants to make a
MAJOR swimming BREAKTHROUGH?

Post a question, I wanna help YOU
SWIM FASTER FASTER.

Ande

hooked-on-swimming
March 22nd, 2005, 03:02 AM
I just realised what made my freestyle stroke count drop.My kick!!!It became a lot smoother and coordinated(6-beat).Before for some odd reason part of it was good, i.e. i followed the rhythm pretty well as my body rotated to the right(right hip facing down the bottom) but it would be a little erratic when my body was rotated to the left, that would happen as I was taking a breath(I breathe to the right and mostly every cycle), now it seems to be evened out and I do better kicking on a breathing hand, too.My kick did not get stronger but just like I said before it just makes a lot more sense now.My guess is that I was sinking a bit on my breathing hand and I would slow dow tha way with an erratic kick and now with the improved one it gives me a better streamline position and I feel a better flow of my body :-)))

Blue Horn
March 23rd, 2005, 11:47 AM
I just started training with a team in the mornings. There are no consistent Masters teams in Corpus Christi, TX, so I am swimming with HS kids being trained by Billy Barton. So far I love it. I am actually having more fun than when I swam competitively as a kid. More than anything, I am building up my lung capacity and just trying to keep up, but it won't be long before I am able to really push it again. What a great way to start the day! The biggest thing I have to improve is my kick. My catch and pull is actually pretty good and I can easily hang with everyone during the pull sets. Thanks for the motivation.

I would like to make some of the meets this summer here in South and Central Texas. I used to swim the 200 breast and 200 IM. I wouldn't mind doing that and the 400 Free. I am only 5'10 so I doubt I could compete in the 50 Free, not to mention that I am probably swimming around 28 for 50 yds. Although, a lot can change after 3 months of solid training.

Hook'em
Blue

Kae1
March 23rd, 2005, 12:43 PM
Ande,
I've been trying for a while for a breakthrough. I got back into serious swimming when I convinced some coworkers to form a triathlon team, with me as the swimmer. I had been swimming about 1000 yards, twice a week. I upped it to 1800 meters (switched pools when I moved), 3x/ week. This was7 months ago. About a month ago, I realized that I want to start competing again, and started pulling workouts off the internet (swim2000.com). Went from 1800m to 3000m in a week, resulting in a pulled bicep tendon :rolleyes: oops. I've been re-working the workouts to incorporate more drills and less pulling (and have a great massage therapist who works on my shoulder, which is doing much better). Right now, I'm at 3200m, 3x a week, and an additional 1500m or so of drills on Sunday if I can. Anyway, my issues are:

1. I've been practicing drills from the Total Immersion book I got, and have problems with balance because by the time I get my body into the "sweet spot", my face is almost completely underwater, making it hard to breathe and very easy for water to go up my nose and down my throat.

2. The workouts I'm using often have intervals set at times I just can't make; I don't know what a proper interval would be for training. Also, the intervals given seem to be only applicable for freestyle, even when the workout specifies some other stroke. How do I adjust intervals for breastroke?

3. I'd love to swim with a team, but my schedule and finances don't allow it right now. Plus, I am extremely sensitive to the sun, and practices outdoors in Arizona year-round will probably wind me up back in a dermtalogists' office.

4. My freestyle seems to be pretty good. I average 15 strokes per 25m, about 18 when sprinting. I'm continuing to work on it. I swim alone, though I've met a number of other swimmers at my gym, and am trying to convince some friends to start joining me.

Kae

ande
March 23rd, 2005, 05:16 PM
Bet that's gonna help
kicking is tricky, the key is to learn how to sprint with a sustainable intensity and pattern that will hold up over an entire 100.

good luck

ande


Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
I just realised what made my freestyle stroke count drop.My kick!!!It became a lot smoother and coordinated(6-beat).Before for some odd reason part of it was good, i.e. i followed the rhythm pretty well as my body rotated to the right(right hip facing down the bottom) but it would be a little erratic when my body was rotated to the left, that would happen as I was taking a breath(I breathe to the right and mostly every cycle), now it seems to be evened out and I do better kicking on a breathing hand, too.My kick did not get stronger but just like I said before it just makes a lot more sense now.My guess is that I was sinking a bit on my breathing hand and I would slow dow tha way with an erratic kick and now with the improved one it gives me a better streamline position and I feel a better flow of my body :-)))

ande
March 23rd, 2005, 05:22 PM
training with age groupers is an excellent way to train.
You're likely to work much harder and longer keeping up with them.

Ande


Originally posted by Blue Horn
I just started training with a team in the mornings. There are no consistent Masters teams in Corpus Christi, TX, so I am swimming with HS kids being trained by Billy Barton. So far I love it. I am actually having more fun than when I swam competitively as a kid. More than anything, I am building up my lung capacity and just trying to keep up, but it won't be long before I am able to really push it again. What a great way to start the day! The biggest thing I have to improve is my kick. My catch and pull is actually pretty good and I can easily hang with everyone during the pull sets. Thanks for the motivation.

I would like to make some of the meets this summer here in South and Central Texas. I used to swim the 200 breast and 200 IM. I wouldn't mind doing that and the 400 Free. I am only 5'10 so I doubt I could compete in the 50 Free, not to mention that I am probably swimming around 28 for 50 yds. Although, a lot can change after 3 months of solid training.

Hook'em
Blue

ande
March 23rd, 2005, 05:30 PM
looks to me like you've got a handle on it
I imagine your focus event is the 1,500
either open water or in a pool

my suggestions are

+ adjust for your injury and don't make it worse

+ train more than 3 x per week

+ train a little further if possible,
readjust work out paces to ones you can make the way you're supposed to make them different sets require different amounts of rest.
pay attention to your training times and work on improving them

+ figure out a way to train with a team or find some training partners, you're much more likely to train harder and longer if you have partners you are accountable to

Break on through,

Ande


Originally posted by Kae1
Ande,
I've been trying for a while for a breakthrough. I got back into serious swimming when I convinced some coworkers to form a triathlon team, with me as the swimmer. I had been swimming about 1000 yards, twice a week. I upped it to 1800 meters (switched pools when I moved), 3x/ week. This was7 months ago. About a month ago, I realized that I want to start competing again, and started pulling workouts off the internet (swim2000.com). Went from 1800m to 3000m in a week, resulting in a pulled bicep tendon :rolleyes: oops. I've been re-working the workouts to incorporate more drills and less pulling (and have a great massage therapist who works on my shoulder, which is doing much better). Right now, I'm at 3200m, 3x a week, and an additional 1500m or so of drills on Sunday if I can. Anyway, my issues are:

1. I've been practicing drills from the Total Immersion book I got, and have problems with balance because by the time I get my body into the "sweet spot", my face is almost completely underwater, making it hard to breathe and very easy for water to go up my nose and down my throat.

2. The workouts I'm using often have intervals set at times I just can't make; I don't know what a proper interval would be for training. Also, the intervals given seem to be only applicable for freestyle, even when the workout specifies some other stroke. How do I adjust intervals for breastroke?

3. I'd love to swim with a team, but my schedule and finances don't allow it right now. Plus, I am extremely sensitive to the sun, and practices outdoors in Arizona year-round will probably wind me up back in a dermtalogists' office.

4. My freestyle seems to be pretty good. I average 15 strokes per 25m, about 18 when sprinting. I'm continuing to work on it. I swim alone, though I've met a number of other swimmers at my gym, and am trying to convince some friends to start joining me.

Kae

hooked-on-swimming
March 24th, 2005, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by ande
Bet that's gonna help
kicking is tricky, the key is to learn how to sprint with a sustainable intensity and pattern that will hold up over an entire 100.

good luck

ande

I am sure it will!I am really happy with that new feeling, 'cause I FEEL faster, not sure yet if I am(I did not time myself).The improved kick keeps me high on the water, too, especially when I sprint!
I will let you know about results in like 3 weeks...

Blue Horn
March 24th, 2005, 07:11 PM
My kick is the biggest thing holding me back in my free times. That and lung capacity. To many nights partying on 6th Street in smoky bars, and smoking cigars. I stopped doing that a few years ago, but I can tell that it had a major effect.

Back to my kick: I am stuck on a two beat kick, because a six beat just wears out my lungs right now. Coach noticed that I will do a six beat kick when we do sets with fins, so we have been doing more sets with fins and more hypoxic sets to build up my lung capacity. The one positive thing that I have noticed is that I can keep up and even pass people in other lanes on our pull sets.

I figure that if I keep eating one bite at a time I will eventually eat the elephant (winning races). It is just going to take some time.

Hook'em
Blue

hooked-on-swimming
March 24th, 2005, 08:08 PM
To Blue Horn:

Once you switch to a 6-beat kick I am POSITIVE you will see some major improvement.I have been doing it for a while but the key is also to do it right!It got a lot better recently and I feel as if in heaven when swimming free now.It pretty much improved my entire freestyle performance, including my endurance.Weird?Once I got my six-beat to be natural and rhythmic, I feel like my legs do not work much anymore and it is not nearly as hard as it used to be to make intervals and stuff.I think what happened is the improved kick gave me a chance to take of some stress from my hands and shoulders, 'cause I swim with a better rhythm and streamline, so the amont of work on my hands did not exactly change, but with a better way of going through water with the help of the better kick it feels GREAT!So to those who diminish the improtance of a kick, I can say: YOU ARE WRONG!
P.S. Work on your kick, it might feel awkward and hard first but it will get easy some day, just believe in it...

ande
March 28th, 2005, 04:57 PM
let us know what kind of training times you're doing with your new technique, 25's, 50's, 75's, 100's, 150's, and 200.

ande


Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
To Blue Horn:

Once you switch to a 6-beat kick I am POSITIVE you will see some major improvement.I have been doing it for a while but the key is also to do it right!It got a lot better recently and I feel as if in heaven when swimming free now.It pretty much improved my entire freestyle performance, including my endurance.Weird?Once I got my six-beat to be natural and rhythmic, I feel like my legs do not work much anymore and it is not nearly as hard as it used to be to make intervals and stuff.I think what happened is the improved kick gave me a chance to take of some stress from my hands and shoulders, 'cause I swim with a better rhythm and streamline, so the amont of work on my hands did not exactly change, but with a better way of going through water with the help of the better kick it feels GREAT!So to those who diminish the improtance of a kick, I can say: YOU ARE WRONG!
P.S. Work on your kick, it might feel awkward and hard first but it will get easy some day, just believe in it...

Blue Horn
March 28th, 2005, 06:19 PM
I assume that you are asking Hooked, but if you are asking me here is my response: My biggest thing is just trying to get back in shape and keep up with the kids. I always watched my times working out by myself, but recently I have been sucking so much wind between sets that I am just going when Coach says go. My lung capacity is so bad that I have a difficult time doing flip turns throughout the entire workout. But, when I started last week, I had to stop doing flip turns after our 1k warm-up so I am improving and it has only been a week. I figure that I will be in decent shape in another 6 weeks, and good to very good shape by the end of summer. Maybe I can make the LC meet in the Woodlands at the end of July.

Saturday I worked on my turns and a 6 beat kick. It was a recovery day for me (last week was my first working out with a team and my body felt it), so I was going about as slow as I ever do. Swimming lazy and using a 6 beat kick I was able to swim 100 repeats at 1:28.

Is it possible for me to get down around a minute per 100 by the end of the summer? What would be a good/realistic goal for the end of summer?

Hook'em
Blue

ande
March 29th, 2005, 05:23 PM
i think your goals should be to
+ train consistently 4 - 5 x per week
+ lose weight and
+ improve your stamina

As far as being able to swim 100 under a minute,
Who's to say what you're capable of?

What were your times when you trained when you were younger?

I say put in the work, do as good as you can, and be happy with whatever time you happen to swim at the end of the summer.

Ande



Originally posted by Blue Horn
I assume that you are asking Hooked, but if you are asking me here is my response: My biggest thing is just trying to get back in shape and keep up with the kids. I always watched my times working out by myself, but recently I have been sucking so much wind between sets that I am just going when Coach says go. My lung capacity is so bad that I have a difficult time doing flip turns throughout the entire workout. But, when I started last week, I had to stop doing flip turns after our 1k warm-up so I am improving and it has only been a week. I figure that I will be in decent shape in another 6 weeks, and good to very good shape by the end of summer. Maybe I can make the LC meet in the Woodlands at the end of July.

Saturday I worked on my turns and a 6 beat kick. It was a recovery day for me (last week was my first working out with a team and my body felt it), so I was going about as slow as I ever do. Swimming lazy and using a 6 beat kick I was able to swim 100 repeats at 1:28.

Is it possible for me to get down around a minute per 100 by the end of the summer?
What would be a good/realistic goal for the end of summer?

Hook'em
Blue

Blue Horn
March 29th, 2005, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by ande
i think your goals should be to
+ train consistently 4 - 5 x per week
+ lose weight and
+ improve your stamina

As far as being able to swim 100 under a minute,
Who's to say what you're capable of?

What were your times when you trained when you were younger?

I say put in the work, do as good as you can, and be happy with whatever time you happen to swim at the end of the summer.

Ande

I agree completely with your assessment, I just wanted to add a time component to my goals, especially since the Woodlands meet is at the end of the summer. Right now, I would agree with your list that my goals should be to (1) train consistently (I am going 5 days a week and actually look forward to getting up at 4:50 am every morning) (2) definitely lose weight (I am 185 lbs and 5'10, but need to be down around 160-165: I have very broad shoulders and doubt that I could get any lower than that without suffering deleterious effects) and (3) improve my stamina, which is most important right now. Once I improve my stamina everything else should fall into place.

As to my previous times, I had to quit swimming in HS to focus on football and keep my weight on (I should have stayed with swimming). Since I focused on breast stroke events and IMs in HS, I just don't recall my times from that far back. Plus, I now realize that my freestyle technique in HS was beyond pathetic. However, I didn't have any difficulties keeping the intervals.

My current times: If I push of the wall I can do a 25 around 13 to 14 seconds, and I am right at the 30 second mark for the 50, but my 100 is around 1:18. I guess I am back to the stamina goal.

FYI on my background: I shattered the head of my left humorous racing supercross about 6 years ago, and it really tooks its toll. I still don't have a full range of motion but I have noticed it getting much better recently. I am finally able to push it everyday without serious pain and numbness. Actually, these problems are now pretty much gone, so I am able to push it much harder.

Thanks for all of your help, I really enjoy your posts.

Hook'em
Blue

hooked-on-swimming
March 30th, 2005, 02:48 AM
Ande, I have started swimming in August with no prior swimming background.So eight now The mosst I can do is sets of 100s.I can swim 200 but I die after a couple of them and am pretty much shot for the rest of the work-out.Although when I started I could hardly swim more than one length of the pool without panting.Now I am in a great shape,24 y.o., 6'1", 162-165lb, very strong(5 years of lifting), my problem though is my endurance which is improving, but still leaves much to be desired...
Well, as for my sets(they are in SCM) I can sustain 100s on 1:40 interval taking them out in around 1:10-1:13 each, as for 50s , well, I can do those forever...Usually to crank it up I will do them on a 55 sec. interval( around 7-10 of those) each at around 32-34 sec. pace...I feel that as my stamina is improving(and my recent better kick) it gets easier and easier to make those intervals, I used yo finish every swim with a desire to quit , 'cause I was panting like crazy, now I do get my heart rate up, but I think it is not that high anymore, 'cause it feels better...All the intervals and times are from a pushh off the wall...So judging by that, what do you think I am capable of in a meet(50 and 100m free) where I am determined to do my best, where the pool is fast vs. my slow pool where I train, shaved, tapered and wearing a good suit?

ande
March 30th, 2005, 12:34 PM
hi blue,

thanks
Just do the best you can in each training session and make sensible eating and drinking choices out of the pool.

when you do practice sets like
10 x 100 on not much rest
work to keep smooth, push a little but not too much
as you get in better shape
you'll be able to hold faster times on faster intervals

Do your fast training swims with someone timing you on a watch, so you'll know your practice times to the 10th of a second.

Glad you like my posts.

I'm hoping to
put in writing most of what I know about swimming and
continue to learn as much as I can about swimming faster faster.

What I don't want you to do is set some sort of time related goal then miss it and be disappointed. So I write, put in the training, swim in a few meets and find out where you are.

Though I do set time goals at the beginning of each season, lately I've found myself having to get real about what I'll be capable of at Zones in the 200 IM.

Ande


Originally posted by Blue Horn
I agree completely with your assessment, I just wanted to add a time component to my goals, especially since the Woodlands meet is at the end of the summer. Right now, I would agree with your list that my goals should be to
(1) train consistently (I am going 5 days a week and actually look forward to getting up at 4:50 am every morning)
(2) definitely lose weight (I am 185 lbs and 5'10, but need to be down around 160-165: I have very broad shoulders and doubt that I could get any lower than that without suffering deleterious effects) and
(3) improve my stamina, which is most important right now. Once I improve my stamina everything else should fall into place.

As to my previous times, I had to quit swimming in HS to focus on football and keep my weight on (I should have stayed with swimming). Since I focused on breast stroke events and IMs in HS, I just don't recall my times from that far back. Plus, I now realize that my freestyle technique in HS was beyond pathetic. However, I didn't have any difficulties keeping the intervals.

My current times: If I push of the wall I can do a 25 around 13 to 14 seconds, and I am right at the 30 second mark for the 50, but my 100 is around 1:18. I guess I am back to the stamina goal.

FYI on my background: I shattered the head of my left humorous racing supercross about 6 years ago, and it really tooks its toll. I still don't have a full range of motion but I have noticed it getting much better recently. I am finally able to push it everyday without serious pain and numbness. Actually, these problems are now pretty much gone, so I am able to push it much harder.

Thanks for all of your help, I really enjoy your posts.

Hook'em
Blue

ande
March 30th, 2005, 12:43 PM
Dima,

If you're concentrating on the 50 and 100

work on your speed, technique, and splitting.


do fast half length sprints and 25's with plenty of rest.
followed by a 75 easy

do fast 50's where you
cruise the first 25
hit a great turn and
sprint home
then give yourself plenty of rest before you start the next one
follow the hard swim with an easy 150 with perfect form

do negative split 100's too

When's your big meet?

if you want to improve your endurance
do things like
10 x 100 free on 1:25 holding 1:20's or 1:20 holding 1:15's

good luck

ande




Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
Ande, I have started swimming in August with no prior swimming background.So eight now The most I can do is sets of 100s. I can swim 200 but I die after a couple of them and am pretty much shot for the rest of the work-out.Although when I started I could hardly swim more than one length of the pool without panting. Now I am in a great shape, 24 y.o., 6'1", 162-165lb, very strong(5 years of lifting), my problem though is my endurance which is improving, but still leaves much to be desired...

Well, as for my sets(they are in SCM) I can sustain 100s on 1:40 interval taking them out in around 1:10-1:13 each, as for 50s , well, I can do those forever...Usually to crank it up I will do them on a 55 sec. interval( around 7-10 of those) each at around 32-34 sec. pace...I feel that as my stamina is improving(and my recent better kick) it gets easier and easier to make those intervals, I used yo finish every swim with a desire to quit , 'cause I was panting like crazy, now I do get my heart rate up, but I think it is not that high anymore, 'cause it feels better...All the intervals and times are from a pushh off the wall...So judging by that, what do you think I am capable of in a meet(50 and 100m free) where I am determined to do my best, where the pool is fast vs. my slow pool where I train, shaved, tapered and wearing a good suit?

SwiminONandON
March 31st, 2005, 01:54 PM
Hey Blue, I PMed you. Did you get it?

jswim
April 4th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by ande
Isn't there anyone else here who wants to make a
MAJOR swimming BREAKTHROUGH?

Post a question, I wanna help YOU
SWIM FASTER FASTER.

Ande

I would LOVE to have a major swimming breakthrough! I am training on my own, have had very little coaching in the past, but can do all strokes relatively soundly. I have no idea what events would be best for me, but I would love to do IM's, as I enjoy all strokes. I get into the pool only about 3-4 times per week during lunch hours, as that is all the time I can afford right now, do I need to be swimming more than that?
I am swimming about 2000 yds in about 45 minutes give or take a few.. and I feel fast in the pool i'm working out in, compared to those swimming with me, but know based on times i see on these forums that I would be put to shame at a meet! lol...
I'm not sure what I can do to make a major breakthrough at this time, with limited coaching availability etc...I'm 31, and know that I could be in much better shape than i'm in, so I know that that is a limiting factor that i'm working on at the present time..
I've also started a general weight lifting regimen to gain strength.
any ideas or help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Jeanette.

ande
April 5th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Hello,

first pick two events to train for and focus on plus
find out what your current times are

you'd benefit from swimming 4 - 5 times a week
please add anything else you'd like to include

give me some answers and I'll write more soon.

Ande


Originally posted by jswim
I would LOVE to have a major swimming breakthrough!
I am training on my own, have had very little coaching in the past, but can do all strokes relatively soundly. I have no idea what events would be best for me, but I would love to do IM's, as I enjoy all strokes. I get into the pool only about 3 - 4 times per week during lunch hours, as that is all the time I can afford right now, do I need to be swimming more than that?
I am swimming about 2000 yds in about 45 minutes give or take a few.. and I feel fast in the pool i'm working out in, compared to those swimming with me, but know based on times i see on these forums that I would be put to shame at a meet! lol...
I'm not sure what I can do to make a major breakthrough at this time, with limited coaching availability etc...I'm 31, and know that I could be in much better shape than i'm in, so I know that that is a limiting factor that i'm working on at the present time..
I've also started a general weight lifting regimen to gain strength.
any ideas or help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Jeanette.

jswim
April 7th, 2005, 07:31 PM
Thanks Ande!
I'll make some decisions and get some more info to you soon.
I just found out that the YMCA in Norman OK, has masters swim classes two days a week, and a regular masters swim clinic! I'M SO EXCITED! I've been looking for swimming guidance off and on for about 3 years now, so this is huge to me! woohoo!
i plan on going tonight (if I can make it), and next week too..

Once I get some sort of plan, and events worked out, I'll be back on this post to tell you more, (and probably ask for more assistance, as I can use all of it that I can get!)

Thanks again!
Jeanette.

Fred Johnson
April 19th, 2005, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by ande
Isn't there anyone else here who wants to make a
MAJOR swimming BREAKTHROUGH?

Post a question, I wanna help YOU
SWIM FASTER FASTER.

Ande

I am training alone (without a team) at the local YMCA. Not a fast pool but very close to my house. With kids and work, I have about an hour and 15 mins. from 5:45 am to 7:00 am 4-5 days per week. I get in about 3500 - 3700 scy per workout. I am 40, 6'0" and 199 (which I'd like to turn in to 185). I can hold 1:20 per 100 for 5 - 10 reps on the 1:35. I confess I haven't competed in a meet in 23 years.

So my question is this: what are people doing to turn in qualifying times for nationals if qualifying is 24.00 (roughly) in the 50 free and a 54.00 (roughly) in the 100 free for my age group 40-44? I swam 50 flat as a 14 year old but that seems very far off right now.

I want to enter a meet in San Antonio in June but am crawfishing because I have NO idea where I am competitively.

Thoughts?

ande
April 20th, 2005, 03:16 PM
just do a "MEET" in a couple of your practices and get some times
so you have some sort of clue where you are.

warm up and do a 50 for time on a watch
warm down rest 15 minutes and do a 100 for time

Ande


Originally posted by Fred Johnson
I am training alone (without a team) at the local YMCA. Not a fast pool but very close to my house. With kids and work, I have about an hour and 15 mins. from 5:45 am to 7:00 am 4-5 days per week. I get in about 3500 - 3700 scy per workout. I am 40, 6'0" and 199 (which I'd like to turn in to 185). I can hold 1:20 per 100 for 5 - 10 reps on the 1:35. I confess I haven't competed in a meet in 23 years.

So my question is this: what are people doing to turn in qualifying times for nationals if qualifying is 24.00 (roughly) in the 50 free and a 54.00 (roughly) in the 100 free for my age group 40-44? I swam 50 flat as a 14 year old but that seems very far off right now.

I want to enter a meet in San Antonio in June but am crawfishing because I have NO idea where I am competitively.

Thoughts?

hooked-on-swimming
April 21st, 2005, 01:13 AM
Just wanted to share another discovery with you, guys...I just lowered my 50 m. breaststroke by 2 more seconds and was curious what I did that gave me that edge.I have been trying very much to streamline and "ride the glide" after every kick, but the main change I noticed is that my hips and my entire body are a lot higher now while I glide(actually at times I feel my butt slightly breaking the surface).I also feel like my feet are grabbing water better, I doubt that the kick got stronger, it seems that before I was kicking too deep, but now my feet are closer to the surface, too, than they used to be.
I would like knowledgeable breasstrokers out there to comment on that one and let me know if that makes sense...

ande
April 22nd, 2005, 10:43 AM
congratulations
sounds to me like you improved your breastroke technique
keep working on fine tuning your streamline body position
Ride the Glide

ande


Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
Just wanted to share another discovery with you, guys...I just lowered my 50 m. breaststroke by 2 more seconds and was curious what I did that gave me that edge.I have been trying very much to streamline and "ride the glide" after every kick, but the main change I noticed is that my hips and my entire body are a lot higher now while I glide(actually at times I feel my butt slightly breaking the surface).I also feel like my feet are grabbing water better, I doubt that the kick got stronger, it seems that before I was kicking too deep, but now my feet are closer to the surface, too, than they used to be.
I would like knowledgeable breasstrokers out there to comment on that one and let me know if that makes sense...

Seagurl51
May 9th, 2005, 02:58 PM
Ande I need your help! I am going to San Antonio this summer to train (yay!) and I need help picking a team. I e-mailed the coach of the university team that I'm hoping to make and got some ball park times. Needless to say I have A LOT of work to do. Should I join the Master's team (M.O.S.T-Masters of South Texas), it's a good team, or should I join the USS team? Either way I'm going to have people push me and get a good workout and good coaching , but the USS team has 2 a days where the Master's team doesn't. Any ideas?

ande
May 9th, 2005, 04:08 PM
i think the 2 best places to train are

1) at the blossom athletic complex / josh davis pool or

2) the university of incarnate word

here’s info on a meet in june
http://www.aaaa-sa.org/PDF%20MI/2005%20Capital%20Challenge.pdf

for more info drop by
http://www.aaaa-sa.org

email
Aquatex101@aol.com

live close to where you train and work
san antonio is a huge city

ande



Originally posted by Seagurl51
Ande I need your help! I am going to San Antonio this summer to train (yay!) and I need help picking a team. I e-mailed the coach of the university team that I'm hoping to make and got some ball park times. Needless to say I have A LOT of work to do. Should I join the Master's team (M.O.S.T-Masters of South Texas), it's a good team, or should I join the USS team? Either way I'm going to have people push me and get a good workout and good coaching , but the USS team has 2 a days where the Master's team doesn't. Any ideas?

Seagurl51
May 9th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Thanx Ande. I e-mailed Susan (the address you gave) yesterday and she was the one who suggested maybe joining a USS team. I've checked out that site before also. They are both wonderful programs. I was just wondering which you think would benefit someone more. Training with younger kids (I have a complex about getting passed by little kids thanx to snowboarding) or a Master's team that may not be quite as intense? Either way I stand to benefit. Thanks for your help!!

p.s. The place I am staying at is closer to the Master's program, but I will have a way to get to the USS program, so it really isn't that big of an issue.

SwiminONandON
May 9th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Kyra, there may be some younger kids that you swim with but there may be kids in college there that are home for the summer. Swimming wise you are probably better off with a USS team, however, two a days are rough especially when you aren't used to them at all. You might not be able to get through the workouts for the first few weeks. However, you will get better faster with a USS team workingout twice a day than with a maters team. Does the masters team only have morning workouts? Perhaps you could go to a few sessions of both and see what you think.

Also, since you are only 19 (Happy Birthday!) you will probably find more people closer to your age on the USS team.

If you can I really recommend trying them both.

Seagurl51
May 9th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Thanks H/Keather (and for the Happy Birthday too). I was thinking about trying both. The Master's team only has morning workouts, so I was thinking maybe doing master mornings and age group evenings. Downside of that is it's twice the money. I'll see what I can do about trying both though.

p.s. I see you never made it to work today.:p

SwiminONandON
May 9th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Actually I got a lot done today. I just leave this on most of the time and click refresh from time to time ....

I would try out both programs before committing to either, they SHOULD let you do that.

Also, see how strict a USS team would be with you in terms of how many workouts/week you'd have to make. Some teams only allow you to miss one a week. Now you are obviously in a different situation so they might be more flexible.

Seagurl51
May 9th, 2005, 06:49 PM
Glad to hear you got work done...sorry that you had to and couldn't mess around all day.

I just e-mailed the coach of the USS team so we'll see what happens.

jswim
May 12th, 2005, 02:19 PM
HI Ande!
Well, I've got the meet results, have my (terrible times), and some events I'd like to start training for.. and some more questions...

I'm aiming at getting in to swim at least 4-5 times per week now, and would like to work up to more when I'm ready. I swam my first meet last saturday, here's what I swam with my times..

100 M Free.. 1:28.50

50 M Free.. 38.88

50 M Breast 51.41
(i'm pretty sure I've already improved that time a little now with some work, and would like to do more)

50 M Fly 45.56

100 M IM DQd.. but they said my time was around 1:40.. yuck!

Ok, I've also been doing weights regularly to build some strength, but now wonder (because of a comment to me at the meet) If I should focus on longer distances.. Though I really enjoy the sprints, and I know I can improve my times, as I have been working with a coach for a short time and have already seen improvements in some of my strokes.

Can one do both long distance, maybe freestyle long distance swims, and sprints in other strokes, or is that not a good way to train?

Here's what I'd like to focus on:

Breaststroke and backstroke sprints, ( I know i didn't swim back in the meet, but I hadn't practiced the start before, now I have and know it's one of my better strokes)

IM's.. 100 and 200M

possibly some middle or longer distance freestyle, unless that's a contradictory combo to do...

Thanks for your help Ande, love your posts!
Jeanette.

ande
May 12th, 2005, 03:46 PM
hello jeanette,

wonderful to hear from you

congratulations on swimming in your first meet.
now you know the times to beat.

you asked
"Can one do both long distance, maybe freestyle long distance swims, and sprints in other strokes, or is that not a good way to train?"

YES, at this point any training you do will cause you to swim faster. work on improving your technique and speed.

ande



Originally posted by jswim
HI Ande!
Well, I've got the meet results, have my (terrible times), and some events I'd like to start training for.. and some more questions...

I'm aiming at getting in to swim at least 4-5 times per week now, and would like to work up to more when I'm ready. I swam my first meet last saturday, here's what I swam with my times..

100 M Free.. 1:28.50

50 M Free.. 38.88

50 M Breast 51.41
(i'm pretty sure I've already improved that time a little now with some work, and would like to do more)

50 M Fly 45.56

100 M IM DQd.. but they said my time was around 1:40.. yuck!

Ok, I've also been doing weights regularly to build some strength, but now wonder (because of a comment to me at the meet) If I should focus on longer distances.. Though I really enjoy the sprints, and I know I can improve my times, as I have been working with a coach for a short time and have already seen improvements in some of my strokes.

Can one do both long distance, maybe freestyle long distance swims, and sprints in other strokes, or is that not a good way to train?

Here's what I'd like to focus on:

Breaststroke and backstroke sprints, ( I know i didn't swim back in the meet, but I hadn't practiced the start before, now I have and know it's one of my better strokes)

IM's.. 100 and 200M

possibly some middle or longer distance freestyle, unless that's a contradictory combo to do...

Thanks for your help Ande, love your posts!
Jeanette.

Seagurl51
May 13th, 2005, 01:25 AM
Ande--

I was just looking at the info on that meet in June. Hopefully I'll get to go, it's being hosted by the team I'm joining. Are you going? I would love to meet you and pick your brain.;)

ande
May 13th, 2005, 12:30 PM
i'd like to go
it will be my only chance to swim in a LCM meet this summer.
If i'm there please say hello

ande


Originally posted by Seagurl51
Ande--

I was just looking at the info on that meet in June. Hopefully I'll get to go, it's being hosted by the team I'm joining. Are you going? I would love to meet you and pick your brain.;)

hooked-on-swimming
May 13th, 2005, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
Talking about break-throughs, I HAVE to share my today's experience with everyone, 'cause I have never been happier with my results since I started swimming.Anyways, today all of a sudden I was swimming like I did not for a long time.I cut my number of strokes from 15 to 14 per 25 m. free which I could not do comfortably for about at least 3 months, my butterfly FINALLY came together , felt awesome and I flew(well, for me) vs. two days ago. My body kinda woke up all of a sudden and it felt like I was a totally different person!!!I have no idea what that has to do with, maybe because I finally decided to stop killing myself and took a day off yesterday after about 9 straight days of work-outs(I know, that is crazy, but I love swimming, I should really give myself more rest, though :-))). So it could have been a mini-taper for me.Or there is another thing I thought about which is weird and I highly doubt it: today the water was extremely warm compared to the usual temperature.Could that have had any effect on my muscles, maybe some relaxing factor, but just like I said I do not think so ...
Well, I just hope that I simply improved and that tomorrow I will still see 14 strokes per 25m and a graceful butterfly...It can't run away from me now, can it?lol

I think I wrote about the above break-through I had like a month ago and I could not even think that I would have another so soon.I got down my stroke count per 25m to 12(warm-up)-14(200m free pace) now.I am so happy.I am sure the times improved but I am not rushing to check, I think I will wait till that becomes second nature so that I do not mess up that feeling by trying to go faster and hence not paying attention to the technique.What I think helped me this time was the following:
1)I started very intense stretching (I want to be able to do the splits, I used to do them at 15 last);
2)I worked on the coordination of my hip rotation and the kick, that I decided to do when I sawthe underwater video of Klete Keller, his hip rotation is amazing.So I engraved Keller's way of swimming in my head and was trying to simulate it...I think it is working.
Just 3 months ago I could not cover 25 m. with less than 15 strokes

ande
May 16th, 2005, 04:33 PM
it should make a big difference for you
please let me know how your kicking project is going

ande


Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
I think I wrote about the above break-through I had like a month ago and I could not even think that I would have another so soon.I got down my stroke count per 25m to 12(warm-up)-14(200m free pace) now.I am so happy.I am sure the times improved but I am not rushing to check, I think I will wait till that becomes second nature so that I do not mess up that feeling by trying to go faster and hence not paying attention to the technique.What I think helped me this time was the following:
1)I started very intense stretching (I want to be able to do the splits, I used to do them at 15 last);
2)I worked on the coordination of my hip rotation and the kick, that I decided to do when I sawthe underwater video of Klete Keller, his hip rotation is amazing.So I engraved Keller's way of swimming in my head and was trying to simulate it...I think it is working.
Just 3 months ago I could not cover 25 m. with less than 15 strokes

Punk
May 16th, 2005, 07:45 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ande

"What do you need to do to have a major swimming breakthrough?"

"What do you need to do to significantly improve your swimming times over one season?"

Do you have any specific, nitty gritty type suggestions.


i don't know from much expirience but my dad went through boot camp and my mom is a personal trainer. they say that if you work yourself hard enough (almost to muscle failure) you'll be out of action for a bit but when you come back you will platou and go up to the next physical level. so far i'v found this to be true.:D

good luck!

ande
May 27th, 2005, 11:37 AM
anyone else out there want to make a major swimming breakthrough?

Ande

SwiminONandON
May 27th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Nah, I'm content with being mediocre ... ;)

Matthias
May 27th, 2005, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by ande
anyone else out there want to make a major swimming breakthrough?

Ande

yap, I would. I had my "final" meet yesterday and I was pretty disappointed with it. Two weeks ago I swam the 50br in 35.72 as a part of a relay. Unfortunatley that doesn't count for the ranking as a breaststroker. So I wanted to swim a 35 in this meet, but I only made a 36.80.
But I'll see the positiv things. It was about 0.02 faster than the actual time I'm listed with in the ranking. I felt less pain and burning in my arms during and after the race. Seems like my lactat tolerance training the last two weeks worked despite what my coach thinks about it :D
I'm currently planning my training for this summer. In about 3 weeks I'll have time to concentrate more on my training and in August I'll have 6 weeks off so I can train as hard as I want (And I want to train as hard as possible).
By the end of the year I hopefully go the 50br in 34.

Alex
May 30th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by ande
Isn't there anyone else here who wants to make a
MAJOR swimming BREAKTHROUGH?

Post a question, I wanna help YOU
SWIM FASTER FASTER.

Ande

Ande:

OK, I want to do it:

I am thinking on making a succesfull participation on the World Master Championship 2006 at SF, since I am going to take my family and some friends to go along. This is a two days trip driving from Mexico City.

I am 38 years old now but I will be competing at the 40-45 year group by then as I turn 40 on mid June.

I have been a master swimmer since 13 years ago, and I never practiced swimming before that.

I am thinking to enter the next events and I am including my actual times:

50 meters free (29 high)
100 meters free (1:06 low)
200 meters free (2:28)
50 meters Backstroke (36 high)
100 meters Backstroke (1:20)
50 meters Fly (31 high)

I have only an hour available to train from Tuesday to Friday, plus all morning on Saturdays and Sundays most of the times (though I just take two hours right now at those days).

I would love to drop my times by around four seconds for the 100 meters (1:02 or better) and so on for the rest of the events.

I am going to participate on the Mexican Nationals LCM in August where I am specting to see my first improvements.

What would it be your advice?... thanks in advance.

ande
May 31st, 2005, 12:59 PM
great

my advice to you is to

Start training, hard and fast

focus on the 100 free
work on increasing your speed,
do 12.5, 25, and 50 sprints with plenty of rest,
to go 1:02 in the 100 you need to be able to go 27 in the 50

work on correctly splitting your 100
to go 1:02, you should split it 30, 32
that first 30 should feel pretty easy.

why not train to break 1:00 in the 100 free?


how tall are you?
how much do you weigh?
are you lifting weights?

ande



Originally posted by Alex
Ande:

OK, I want to do it:

I am thinking on making a succesfull participation on the World Master Championship 2006 at SF, since I am going to take my family and some friends to go along. This is a two days trip driving from Mexico City.

I am 38 years old now but I will be competing at the 40-45 year group by then as I turn 40 on mid June.

I have been a master swimmer since 13 years ago, and I never practiced swimming before that.

I am thinking to enter the next events and I am including my actual times:

50 meters free (29 high)
100 meters free (1:06 low)
200 meters free (2:28)
50 meters Backstroke (36 high)
100 meters Backstroke (1:20)
50 meters Fly (31 high)

I have only an hour available to train from Tuesday to Friday, plus all morning on Saturdays and Sundays most of the times (though I just take two hours right now at those days).

I would love to drop my times by around four seconds for the 100 meters (1:02 or better) and so on for the rest of the events.

I am going to participate on the Mexican Nationals LCM in August where I am specting to see my first improvements.

What would it be your advice?... thanks in advance.

Alex
May 31st, 2005, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by ande


how tall are you?
how much do you weigh?
are you lifting weights?

ande

Ande:

Thanks for your tips, now:

I am not very tall: 5' 8"

Neither fat: 150 pounds

And I am not lifting weights but I would if needed.

Alex

EyeoreSAM
May 31st, 2005, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by ande
anyone else out there want to make a major swimming breakthrough?



I am always searching to make a breakthrough. I'd love suggestions!

ande
June 2nd, 2005, 01:40 PM
If you were stronger you would probably swim faster
weight training is important for sprinters

ande


Originally posted by Alex
Ande:

Thanks for your tips, now:

I am not very tall: 5' 8"

Neither fat: 150 pounds

And I am not lifting weights but I would if needed.

Alex

ande
June 2nd, 2005, 01:41 PM
this is kind of vague,
i need specifics on your situation to give you good suggestions

where are you now
how have you been training
where do you hope to be

the more info the better

ande


Originally posted by EyeoreSAM
I am always searching to make a breakthrough.
I'd love suggestions!

Matthias
June 2nd, 2005, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by ande
where are you now
how have you been training
where do you hope to be


I think I will give it a try. Since I set my new goals according to your swim faster faster tip, I will propably need a lot of help on my way there.

So, where am I now?

Currently, I am at a 35.72 PB for the 50br but it seems as I could only reproduce 36.80-36.83 if I try hard. When I swam the 35, I was totaly in my mental "zone" swimming like in trance.

How am I training?
Currently I am training 4-5 times a week. Next monday I will start a high intensive 18 weeks calisthenics/running schedule for dryland training. In the summer I will also spend 6 weeks with a intensive weight training schedule.

Where do I hope to be?

Well, the big goal is to make national squad times by 2008. This would mean with a look at the age group I will be in by 2008 that I have to swim that 50br in around 28 secs.
To make it more realistic and more motivating I broke it down into several goals having one for the end of each year.
This means I will swim a 34 by the end of this year, a 32 by the end of next year, a 30 by the end of 2007 and then finaly a 28 by the end of 2008.

I hope you can give me some help with this. My swim buddy whom I told this thinks I am crazy (if he hasn't thought that before) and also offered me a vacation at his expense. One more reasons to make it till 2008. As the mental thing now is set and for me, there is no doubt I will make the times of my dream when I want to swim them, the hard work starts.

Alex
June 2nd, 2005, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by ande
If you were stronger you would probably swim faster
weight training is important for sprinters

ande

I will start lifting weights right away, but as I only have an hour a day I guess I have to swim Tus, Thurs, Sat and Sun & lift weights Wedn. and Fridays. (Mondays the club closes)

What do you think??

I will also ask my coach her recomendation, though there is a new coach in our master team since the older retired for other activities (he did not make enough money for his needs), and the new one is preatty young and I don´t think she knows much.

:rolleyes:

EyeoreSAM
June 2nd, 2005, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by ande
this is kind of vague,
i need specifics on your situation to give you good suggestions

where are you now
how have you been training
where do you hope to be

the more info the better

ande

Ande-

I sent you a PM with some specifics. Your tips are great and I appreciate any and all input!!

Suzanne

ande
June 2nd, 2005, 05:26 PM
you're better off swimming each day but monday
and just doing push ups, sit ups, pull ups, and jumps for exercise.
i would sacrifice two training sessions a week

Ande


Originally posted by Alex
I will start lifting weights right away, but as I only have an hour a day I guess I have to swim Tus, Thurs, Sat and Sun & lift weights Wedn. and Fridays. (Mondays the club closes)

What do you think??

I will also ask my coach her recomendation, though there is a new coach in our master team since the older retired for other activities (he did not make enough money for his needs), and the new one is preatty young and I don´t think she knows much.

:rolleyes:

401kman
June 11th, 2005, 11:36 PM
Hey Ande! If you are giving advice I can use all that I can get. I have been frustrated over the last 3-5 months in that I no longer seem to see any improvement.

I am 47 year old male, 5'11 1/2", 208 lbs, 29% body fat, and have tested my resting heart rate as low as 52 but more often about 54 Beats Per Minute. I only started swimming 1 year ago and had never done any swimming workouts prior to that, though I was a fairly dedicated competitive runner in high school (1:57 half-mile). Other points of note are that I have a ruptured and degenerative disc disease of my L5/S1 lumbar disc (which is the reason why I had to take up swimming to address what was my increasing weight problem). So I only do open turns out of fear about my back. When I began I weighed in at about 230 lbs, dropped down to 198 lbs, but have now come back up to 208 lbs -:( . I swim fairly consistently with a local masters swim club 3 times per week where we average 3,000 - 3,600 yards per workout over an hour to hour and 15 minutes. Most of these workouts consist of shorter intervals (25's, 50's, 100's) and at least one of the weekly workouts is focused or includes IM training. I generally swim an additional 2 times a week on my own. These workouts I tend to do longer distances and have several times exceeded 6,000 yards, but more often average in the 4,000 to 5,000 yard range (intervals of 200's, 300's, and 500's). I have been averaging 16,000 - 20,000 yards per week (when I do not include the rare week where I can't train or only train 1-2 days for work or other reasons). All my training is in SCY pools. While I have not competed yet, I hope to next year. So I am guaging my improvement on "time trials" often completed at the end of workouts with the masters team - all of which are done as push-offs. It is worth noting that when I am swimming with the team, my times are noticably faster - I guess due to the fear of slowing down those in my lane though they make me lead the lane most of the time. Freestyle is my best stroke, with butterfly next. My breast and back are pathetic and I have serious kick issues on all strokes (based upon kick sets I do with the others in my lane, I can easily outpace everyone in my lane when doing full freestyle stroke, but can't come close to keeping up when doing kick sets). About 5 months ago I got a 100y time trail at the end of a workout down to about a 1:05. And last Friday, I did about a 1:07. I have definitely plateaued in ths area and can't figure out how to get out of this rut. Any ideas?

ande
June 13th, 2005, 01:04 PM
hello,

first be careful with your back situation

next I encourage you to get slim, get back to 198 and trim down even more if you can,

try the acting as if technique and the last battle technique on hard efforts in key sets,
you can read about them in the swim faster faster thread

Lastly do some speed training and this might help you drop your 100 time down to what you'd like it to be.

good luck, keep me posted,

ande


Originally posted by 401kman
Hey Ande! If you are giving advice I can use all that I can get. I have been frustrated over the last 3-5 months in that I no longer seem to see any improvement.

I am 47 year old male, 5'11 1/2", 208 lbs, 29% body fat, and have tested my resting heart rate as low as 52 but more often about 54 Beats Per Minute. I only started swimming 1 year ago and had never done any swimming workouts prior to that, though I was a fairly dedicated competitive runner in high school (1:57 half-mile). Other points of note are that I have a ruptured and degenerative disc disease of my L5/S1 lumbar disc (which is the reason why I had to take up swimming to address what was my increasing weight problem). So I only do open turns out of fear about my back. When I began I weighed in at about 230 lbs, dropped down to 198 lbs, but have now come back up to 208 lbs -:( . I swim fairly consistently with a local masters swim club 3 times per week where we average 3,000 - 3,600 yards per workout over an hour to hour and 15 minutes. Most of these workouts consist of shorter intervals (25's, 50's, 100's) and at least one of the weekly workouts is focused or includes IM training. I generally swim an additional 2 times a week on my own. These workouts I tend to do longer distances and have several times exceeded 6,000 yards, but more often average in the 4,000 to 5,000 yard range (intervals of 200's, 300's, and 500's). I have been averaging 16,000 - 20,000 yards per week (when I do not include the rare week where I can't train or only train 1-2 days for work or other reasons). All my training is in SCY pools. While I have not competed yet, I hope to next year. So I am guaging my improvement on "time trials" often completed at the end of workouts with the masters team - all of which are done as push-offs. It is worth noting that when I am swimming with the team, my times are noticably faster - I guess due to the fear of slowing down those in my lane though they make me lead the lane most of the time. Freestyle is my best stroke, with butterfly next. My breast and back are pathetic and I have serious kick issues on all strokes (based upon kick sets I do with the others in my lane, I can easily outpace everyone in my lane when doing full freestyle stroke, but can't come close to keeping up when doing kick sets). About 5 months ago I got a 100y time trail at the end of a workout down to about a 1:05. And last Friday, I did about a 1:07. I have definitely plateaued in ths area and can't figure out how to get out of this rut. Any ideas?

Matthias
June 15th, 2005, 04:26 PM
hey everyone,

I feel like i've just had a breakthrough. It all started yesterday evening. While editing a videoclip I used a song called "Top of the world" by Van Halen. Somehow the song and its lyrics ("nothing's gonna stop me - nothing's gonna scary me") got me into IPS. Luckily I could transfer a good deal of this feeling into today's workout and it really made a difference.
Right at the begining during warmup I felt like I was going faster than before and much more effortless. During the training I could keep this feeling and I was always bumpin' into the swimmer right in front of me, although I gave them a good headstart every turn. (In a 10x50's on a minute I would not start until passed the middle of the pool, sprint down until I had to stop a few meters from the wall to avoid bumpin' into their turn, wait again until they passed 15 meter mark and then sprint again and finish right with them).
And I also could set a much faster cruise pace on the 18x100's we did today than I was ever able to set even with much less 100's. By the end of the workout I was really getting tired and had to fight to finish the sets and keep my technique acceptable but in the end, I feel like I've gotten a great workout today. I hope I can save this feeling for my future workouts because I feel like this is the kind of workout I need if I wanna make national squad times by 2008.

ande
June 20th, 2005, 04:56 PM
thanks for sharing your experience
I hope you work hard and smart and accomplish your goals.

ande


Originally posted by Matthias
hey everyone,

I feel like i've just had a breakthrough. It all started yesterday evening. While editing a videoclip I used a song called "Top of the world" by Van Halen. Somehow the song and its lyrics ("nothing's gonna stop me - nothing's gonna scary me") got me into IPS. Luckily I could transfer a good deal of this feeling into today's workout and it really made a difference.
Right at the begining during warmup I felt like I was going faster than before and much more effortless. During the training I could keep this feeling and I was always bumpin' into the swimmer right in front of me, although I gave them a good headstart every turn. (In a 10x50's on a minute I would not start until passed the middle of the pool, sprint down until I had to stop a few meters from the wall to avoid bumpin' into their turn, wait again until they passed 15 meter mark and then sprint again and finish right with them).
And I also could set a much faster cruise pace on the 18x100's we did today than I was ever able to set even with much less 100's. By the end of the workout I was really getting tired and had to fight to finish the sets and keep my technique acceptable but in the end, I feel like I've gotten a great workout today. I hope I can save this feeling for my future workouts because I feel like this is the kind of workout I need if I wanna make national squad times by 2008.

ande
July 29th, 2005, 05:10 PM
anyone else wanna break through?

gull
August 8th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Don't know if this will result in a breakthrough, but I'm finally (after 2 years) able to swim (no pull buoy) descending sets of 400s, 300s and 200s. Why is that? I credit the following, in no particular order:

Healthy (relatively) shoulder
Training partner of similar ability
Coached workouts 3 days/wk with the Masters team
Coached workouts with the age groupers 3 days/wk during the summer
Dry land work
Stroke improvement, including a change from a 2 beat to a four beat kick (and for the first time able to kick 50s on 1:00--no fins, no board).

My new goal (among others) is to swim faster at 50 than in my 40s (inspired by Tom Wolf).

Blue Horn
August 8th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Hey Ande,

Recently, I had 2 sets of 10x50 SCY on 2:00 where I was coming in at 34 seconds in free and on the second set (which was breaststroke) I was coming in at 35 to 36. When I first started with the age group team a few months back, I was at 40 to 45 seconds for free. I would start off around 40 to 42 seconds and by the end of the set I was at 45 seconds. I still have a long way to go but the improvement is exciting so I figured I would tell you. I am really looking forward to getting to beinf in good enough shape to compete.

One more thing, at the end of practice in the 50 LCM pool we did an all out 50 from a push and I went 25 seconds with fins. Going that fast felt really cool. Having water flowing along you at that speesd really lets you see how important streamlining is. Now, I WANT to go that fast without fins, that is my new goal. It is freaky how much fun I am having at a practice. I love it, even the under water work.

Hook'em
Blue

ande
August 11th, 2005, 06:18 PM
congratulations!

Ande


Originally posted by gull80
Don't know if this will result in a breakthrough, but I'm finally (after 2 years) able to swim (no pull buoy) descending sets of 400s, 300s and 200s. Why is that? I credit the following, in no particular order:

Healthy (relatively) shoulder
Training partner of similar ability
Coached workouts 3 days/wk with the Masters team
Coached workouts with the age groupers 3 days/wk during the summer
Dry land work
Stroke improvement, including a change from a 2 beat to a four beat kick (and for the first time able to kick 50s on 1:00--no fins, no board).

My new goal (among others) is to swim faster at 50 than in my 40s (inspired by Tom Wolf).

ande
August 11th, 2005, 06:19 PM
congratulations
you've made impressive progress

ande


Originally posted by Blue Horn
Hey Ande,

Recently, I had 2 sets of 10x50 SCY on 2:00 where I was coming in at 34 seconds in free and on the second set (which was breaststroke) I was coming in at 35 to 36. When I first started with the age group team a few months back, I was at 40 to 45 seconds for free. I would start off around 40 to 42 seconds and by the end of the set I was at 45 seconds. I still have a long way to go but the improvement is exciting so I figured I would tell you. I am really looking forward to getting to beinf in good enough shape to compete.

One more thing, at the end of practice in the 50 LCM pool we did an all out 50 from a push and I went 25 seconds with fins. Going that fast felt really cool. Having water flowing along you at that speesd really lets you see how important streamlining is. Now, I WANT to go that fast without fins, that is my new goal. It is freaky how much fun I am having at a practice. I love it, even the under water work.

Hook'em
Blue

69gscal
August 11th, 2005, 06:51 PM
I need to join a team and get into a regular schedule!

I swam on a Master's team last year for a total of two months and saw amazing improvements.
I went from not being able to swim more than 1,000 Yards/ hour to swimming 3,000.
My 100 meter free went from over 1:30 to 1:07.
And my most prized claim, a 10.8 second 25 yard freestyle from a dive off of the deck (no platform). Back then I had no idea what a split was and my turns were disgusting. Anything over 50 y/m was always very disappointing for me.

This was the first organized swimming I had ever participated in; no high school or college teams.

At 25 years old I think I could still be a great swimmer. But I think I need to find myself a team first and foremost.

ande
August 12th, 2005, 11:15 AM
there are plenty of great teams in phoenix.
good luck improving

ande


Originally posted by 69gscal
I need to join a team and get into a regular schedule!

I swam on a Master's team last year for a total of two months and saw amazing improvements.
I went from not being able to swim more than 1,000 Yards/ hour to swimming 3,000.
My 100 meter free went from over 1:30 to 1:07.
And my most prized claim, a 10.8 second 25 yard freestyle from a dive off of the deck (no platform). Back then I had no idea what a split was and my turns were disgusting. Anything over 50 y/m was always very disappointing for me.

This was the first organized swimming I had ever participated in; no high school or college teams.

At 25 years old I think I could still be a great swimmer. But I think I need to find myself a team first and foremost.

geochuck
August 12th, 2005, 11:41 AM
What I need to have a major break through, I am 6' 3" tall I need to be another 3 to 4 inches taller. Here is the proof http://www.gsv1.de/koerper.htm

gull
August 12th, 2005, 01:16 PM
What do I think I need to do? Be able to repeat 100s on 1:10 and 200s on 2:30. That's my goal for the year.

Today we did 16 100s, the last 4 on 1:15 holding 1:10.

dvarner
August 16th, 2005, 01:43 AM
Thanks, Ande -

The repeated discussions about careful splitting and the need to take risks to make breakthroughs finally sunk in. It helped to see your examples and excerpts on top of what we all know is supposed to be a smart strategy; there's no substitute for repetition and proof.

After two "stupid" swims at Nationals (200 + 400 free) I took a chance, defying my tendency to succumb to race anxiety and go out too fast, and negative splitted a best time. Dropped :47 since early July, and, best of all, did not wish for any number of spectacular, premature ends to the race while doing it. I don't think I ever negatively splitted any best times in any event during all the years I swam age group.

Even though it's a long way before I reach the big heats there was success on a smaller scale thanks to the discussions you've begun.

Sincerely,

DV

ande
August 16th, 2005, 04:11 PM
keep training your aerobic system

do some long smooth sets where you're going strong but not all out, do some sets where you push and test your limits, and some where you attempt to make 100's on and find out where you fail
when you fail, attempt to make 1:15

also do some sets where you attemp to hold faster times on 1:15 and 1:20

if you have a digital pace clock, try repeating 100's on
1:11 to 1:14

if you consistently train, you'll get better over time
there's much more in swim faster faster

you want to get to where you can comfortable make it.

congrats on doing 4 on 1:15 holding 1:10

Ande


Originally posted by gull80
What do I think I need to do? Be able to repeat 100s on 1:10 and 200s on 2:30. That's my goal for the year.

Today we did 16 100s, the last 4 on 1:15 holding 1:10.

ande
August 16th, 2005, 04:15 PM
you're welcome, congratulations!!!
isn't fun when you split a race correctly and swim a best time?
It's awesome when the correct splitting concept it finally sinks in, you use it and it works.

keep experimenting and training hard.

ande


Originally posted by dvarner
Thanks, Ande -

The repeated discussions about careful splitting and the need to take risks to make breakthroughs finally sunk in. It helped to see your examples and excerpts on top of what we all know is supposed to be a smart strategy; there's no substitute for repetition and proof.

After two "stupid" swims at Nationals (200 + 400 free) I took a chance, defying my tendency to succumb to race anxiety and go out too fast, and negative splitted a best time. Dropped :47 since early July, and, best of all, did not wish for any number of spectacular, premature ends to the race while doing it. I don't think I ever negatively splitted any best times in any event during all the years I swam age group.

Even though it's a long way before I reach the big heats there was success on a smaller scale thanks to the discussions you've begun.

Sincerely,

DV

jenmik
August 24th, 2005, 03:13 PM
in response to the original question:

"What do you need to do to have a major swimming breakthrough?"

"What do you need to do to significantly improve your swimming times over one season?"

Do you have any specific, nitty gritty type suggestions.

I think it's really easy to fall into ruts, to just show up and go through the motions rather than seizing the moment while we train.

Any one have any thoughts on what we need to do to significantly improve?

My little commentary:
I think in order to have a breakthrough, and improve swimming you'll mainly need to focus on the following two things: your awareness while swimming, and your intention/focus while swimming.

Awareness means you know why you are swimming, and more importantly HOW you are swimming. (i.e. Where is your hand when you begin your catch, what position is it in? how long is the extension thru the arm during the catch? etc) If you are not aware of any of this, and even the best of swimmers may not be, its time to SLOW down, and take account of what is happening and how you can little by little, iron out all the little problems areas. You'll see more result swimming with QUALITY vs. quantity.
Awareness also means you know yourself in the pool. For example, what is your stroke count (per 25)at a medium pace? at a fast pace? do you have control over it? If you don't know any of this, it is something to examine. You should know your stroke count, be able to maintain that count every time, and adjust it accordingly and at will. For example. lets say your stroke count is 16 per 25 yds/meters (stroke count will be different for everyone depending upon height, etc) you should be able to swim a medium paced 100 and hit that count of 16 every time. If you are sprinting, raise it to 18 (or whatever number) but be very specific about it, and plan it before you start swimming. Lately I've been neg splitting my 100's by adjusting stroke count. I'll swim the 100 with stroke counts of 16-16-18-18. Again, its awareness, control and intention about what you are doing.
Drills are a great way to slow down, take account of what you are doing, notice where you are in the pool, and really examine whats going on.
Try alternating 25 drill with 25 stroke and see what happens. Count strokes on a daily basis and see if you can track what is going on. Totalimmersion.net has some really great drills that help raise your awareness. I was able to drop my stroke count significantly (thus increasing my efficiency and being more hydrodynamic) thru awareness and focus. If you are simply going thru the motions, all the yardage in the world will not help you.
Its also great to cross train with something like Yoga, where again, not only are you benefitting from the physical aspect it has to offer, but you are becoming more aware of your body, where your body is in space, and your focus of what you are doing.

Some other little items to help oneself improve:
Write down a swim log of your own swims, how you swam, your experience thru the swim, etc and compare over a few weeks.

Pick a focus of the day while swimming, maybe mondays and thursdays is getting a great push off for EVERY flip turn. Maybe Tuesdays and fridays you count strokes. Maybe wednesdays and saturdays its about keeping the head in a streamlined position. there's tons of variables, and i think you get the general idea.

work two strokes together - back and free can be worked on together and you'll find some missing ingredients for each within the other. same for breast and fly.

eat good food, fuel your body well.

ask a friend to watch you swim, or videotape yourself to get that external perspective.

swim with a GOOD coach, but most importantly, learn how to be your own coach.

remember its a long term process, no instantaneous results!

good luck!!

ande
September 7th, 2005, 04:31 PM
looks like some great advice

ande

ow-swimmer
October 12th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Hello,

First, I am new to this forum and to the USMS. I was originally a 1m springboard diver in H.S. but not active in swimming. When I started swimming on our Masters team in February 2005, I entered the 500, 200, 100, and 50 FS races. My 500 time for my first race was 10:30, not bad but I wanted to improve. My last 500 race at the Keystone games in July was 8:30, a whole two minutes improvement. Here's what I contribute it to:

1. Practice 4x (+)/week
2. Stroke development w/ coach
3. Bi-lateral Breathing
4. Goal setting -To cross the English Channel in August 2007

I swim open water races in addition to my pool workout. Currently I swim 4x/week 5,000+ yds/swim. I mix it up by using workouts I found in Swim Magazine and Marcia Cleavland's website doversolo.com. I'll swim for an hour before the team shows up on team nights. Hope you all enjoyed my input.

Tony

ande
October 24th, 2005, 05:51 PM
you've made some excellent progress
keep doing what you're doing

ande


Originally posted by ow-swimmer
Hello, First, I am new to this forum and to the USMS. I was originally a 1m springboard diver in H.S. but not active in swimming. When I started swimming on our Masters team in February 2005, I entered the 500, 200, 100, and 50 FS races. My 500 time for my first race was 10:30, not bad but I wanted to improve. My last 500 race at the Keystone games in July was 8:30, a whole two minutes improvement. Here's what I contribute it to:

1. Practice 4x (+)/week
2. Stroke development w/ coach
3. Bi-lateral Breathing
4. Goal setting -To cross the English Channel in August 2007

I swim open water races in addition to my pool workout. Currently I swim 4x/week 5,000+ yds/swim. I mix it up by using workouts I found in Swim Magazine and Marcia Cleavland's website doversolo.com. I'll swim for an hour before the team shows up on team nights. Hope you all enjoyed my input.
Tony

reej
February 22nd, 2006, 08:24 PM
are you still around, ande? I certainly would like to discuss strategies to make leaps and bounds (or maybe less splashes, then :D)

ande
February 28th, 2006, 12:57 PM
hello

yes I am but I don't check this thread often

I've written many tips in
swim faster faster
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4229

ande


Originally posted by reej
are you still around, ande? I certainly would like to discuss strategies to make leaps and bounds (or maybe less splashes, then :D)

ande
May 11th, 2006, 03:52 PM
anyone care to have a breakthrough?

ande

aquaFeisty
May 23rd, 2006, 11:22 PM
Hi Ande,

I would love to break through the minute in the 100 free. Here are my lifetime bests:

2002 IL States 1:01.79 (29.48, 32.31)
2003 Nationals 1:01.91 (28.64, 33.27)
2006 IL States 1:02.30 (29.46, 32.84)
2006 Nationals 1:02.16 (29.61, 32.55)

I took the 03-04 and 04-05 seasons off (burnt-out and pregnant, respectively). In 2002 and 2003, my 50 time was 27.77 and this past season it was 27.94. In *theory* a sub minute 100 should be possible.

This past season, I swam 2-4 times/week for an hour to hour 15 - these were coached practices. I was really ugly-out-of-shape at the beginning of the season, so initially focussed on technique on slow repeats. Specifically, I spent the season working on taking at least 2 dolphins off every single flip turn, streamlining out of turns, and kicking with a 6-beat kick all the time (even if the kick wasn't all that strong - this was a huge improvement over my old 1 1/2 beat kick). My in-season times were really slow, 1:07, so I was very psyched to be so close to my best times at the end of the season. This was despite packing around a 20 lb baby at meets... not carrying the baby should help my arms a bit next season.

So what can I work on to get down closer to and hopefully under a minute? This is my goal for the end of the 06-07 season. I know I die off way too bad on the 2nd 50... how can I bring this back better? Or, how can I use less energy on the first 50 to help bring the 2nd one back faster? My legs sap so much energy, but if I don't kick hard on that first 50 I have no chance of a decent time. FYI, my 200 is even uglier in terms of dying off... best time is 2:19.7 (in 2002), this season it was only 2:23.

Thanks!
Feisty

ande
June 28th, 2006, 04:45 PM
hi Feisty,

on paper if you can go a 27.9
you should be able to
take your 100 fr out in 28.9 and come home in 30.4
which is a 59.3
at worst you should come back in 30.99
which still puts you at 59.99


from reading your splits below, it looks to me like you're haing a hard time finishing your races
I would work on the things I write about in swim faster faster

train more often
train harder
swim faster in practice
wear a fast skin
shave
lose weight
work on splitting
lift weights
pick a meet set a goal

good luck
hope this helps

ande



Originally posted by aquaFeisty
Hi Ande,

I would love to break through the minute in the 100 free. Here are my lifetime bests:

2002 IL States 1:01.79 (29.48, 32.31)
2003 Nationals 1:01.91 (28.64, 33.27)
2006 IL States 1:02.30 (29.46, 32.84)
2006 Nationals 1:02.16 (29.61, 32.55)

I took the 03-04 and 04-05 seasons off (burnt-out and pregnant, respectively). In 2002 and 2003, my 50 time was 27.77 and this past season it was 27.94. In *theory* a sub minute 100 should be possible.

This past season, I swam 2-4 times/week for an hour to hour 15 - these were coached practices. I was really ugly-out-of-shape at the beginning of the season, so initially focussed on technique on slow repeats. Specifically, I spent the season working on taking at least 2 dolphins off every single flip turn, streamlining out of turns, and kicking with a 6-beat kick all the time (even if the kick wasn't all that strong - this was a huge improvement over my old 1 1/2 beat kick). My in-season times were really slow, 1:07, so I was very psyched to be so close to my best times at the end of the season. This was despite packing around a 20 lb baby at meets... not carrying the baby should help my arms a bit next season.

So what can I work on to get down closer to and hopefully under a minute? This is my goal for the end of the 06-07 season. I know I die off way too bad on the 2nd 50... how can I bring this back better? Or, how can I use less energy on the first 50 to help bring the 2nd one back faster? My legs sap so much energy, but if I don't kick hard on that first 50 I have no chance of a decent time. FYI, my 200 is even uglier in terms of dying off... best time is 2:19.7 (in 2002), this season it was only 2:23.

Thanks!
Feisty

BillS
June 29th, 2006, 02:19 PM
Along these lines, how much slower than my best 50 free time do I want my 50 split in the 100 to be? How about the 200? I'm pretty sure I went out too slow in my last meet at about 2 seconds slower in the 100 and 5 in the 200.

ande
June 29th, 2006, 05:44 PM
hello

I've written about this topic in my swim faster faster series


for the 100
Ideally your first 50 split for the 100 should be between
1.0 - 2.0 seconds slower than your 50 time
your second 50 split should be 1.0 - 2.5 slower than what you did your first 50 in, ideally 1.5

so if you go 22.0 in the 50
when you're swimming a 100
you should go out in 23.5 and come back in 25.0


for the 200
the key is to take your race out fast but relaxed, breathe often, stay in control and save your legs

your first 50 should be 2 - 3 seconds slower than your all out 50
your next 3 50 splits should be very close
ie
let's say you go
22.0 in the 50 and
48.5 in the 100
you should be able to go
1:47.0 in the 200
splitting it in the vicinity of 52.5 54.5
ideally
25.25 27.25 27.25 27.25

a good rule of thumb is to take your 100 time
double it and add 10 seconds
so if you go 55.0 in the 100 free
you should be able to go 2:00 in the 200 free so
your first 100 should be 4 seconds slower than your 100 time and
your last 100 should be 6 seconds slower than your 100 time
split their 200 59.0, 1:01.0

distance swimmers might only add 4 - 8 seconds
drop dead sprints might add 11 - 15

when you compare 100 splits for the 200
your first and second 100 should be in the range of
0 - 4 seconds
Ideally 1.0 - 2.0

to use real life examples heres some actual times from the recent Santa Clara meet

Keller, Klete D 24
1:48.69
0:26.30
0:53.86 (27.56)
1:21.58 (27.72)
1:48.69 (27.11)


Coughlin, Natalie
1:58.47
0:27.47
0:58.20 (30.73)
1:28.01 (29.81)
1:58.47 (30.46)


Proper splitting really boils down to perceived effort and motivation:

How does the swimmer feel at the half way point of her race?

How intensely does the swimmer want to race the second last half?

ande



Originally posted by BillS
Along these lines, how much slower than my best 50 free time do I want my 50 split in the 100 to be? How about the 200? I'm pretty sure I went out too slow in my last meet at about 2 seconds slower in the 100 and 5 in the 200.

BillS
June 29th, 2006, 06:15 PM
Thank you, Ande, that is most helpful.

I know you did a table of contents for your Swim Faster series, but it is still hard to find topics in there, and harder still to scroll through the many pages get to the right spot in that big thread. There is so much good stuff in there, I sure wish someone at USMS would set it up as a separate spot where you could jump directly from each topic to the responsive posts.

ande
July 5th, 2006, 12:16 PM
your welcome
I've created swim faster faster in a word document and a PDF
I just haven't made if available
I also need to update the most recent info

ande


Originally posted by BillS
Thank you, Ande, that is most helpful.

I know you did a table of contents for your Swim Faster series, but it is still hard to find topics in there, and harder still to scroll through the many pages get to the right spot in that big thread. There is so much good stuff in there, I sure wish someone at USMS would set it up as a separate spot where you could jump directly from each topic to the responsive posts.

aquaFeisty
July 5th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Thanks for the advice, Ande. It's good to know that the sub-minute hundred should be doable. I have read through your swim faster faster tips. This season, I'm really going to focus on training more often and going harder/faster at practice.

Here's a quick question: what do you think about using stretch cords as a way to do weights? We have stretch cords at home (no weights) so these are really convenient. For reference, I have never lifted weights or consistently used the stretch cords... so it's not like I have a 'real' background with weights.

ande
July 13th, 2006, 02:47 PM
you're welcome
using stretch cords might help
they are probably better than nothing

ande


Originally posted by aquaFeisty
Thanks for the advice, Ande. It's good to know that the sub-minute hundred should be doable. I have read through your swim faster faster tips. This season, I'm really going to focus on training more often and going harder/faster at practice.

Here's a quick question: what do you think about using stretch cords as a way to do weights? We have stretch cords at home (no weights) so these are really convenient. For reference, I have never lifted weights or consistently used the stretch cords... so it's not like I have a 'real' background with weights.

ande
August 26th, 2006, 11:41 AM
any one interested in breaking through?

ande

08sharmag
November 3rd, 2006, 09:21 PM
hey ande,

I'm primarily a freestyle swimmer, and I want to get a lot faster in the 50 freestyle. Last year, I was able to go at the fastest time, 27.4 sec. I want to try to get my time under 24.3, which is the WPIAL time. Is this possible?

I'm 5'11
155 lbs
I do lift weights, but also what exercises should I focus on to get a lot faster in sprints, and what type of sets?

Thank you so much for helping, because I really want to get faster.

CreamPuff
November 13th, 2006, 01:57 PM
Me! I'd love advice on a swimming breakthrough!

First, after a 12 year swimming "break," I'm finally at (just a bit better or on them) my best times as a kid. Yippee! I did not start back at this level - I was sucking wind! What helped me have a "mini" breakthrough was:

Coaching kids and adults (it's CHALLENGING to practice what you preach)!

Swimming with the men @ Masters practices - I used to say, "Well, they are men and so fast. They are supposed to beat me." And I'd focus on swimming against the women. No more! I race any one and any age. So this was a bit of a mental adjustment. I've improved a lot just from this one aspect.

Started doing triathlons - this got me in better physical condition. But now, I'm focusing on swimming.

Attitude change in general - really working my weak strokes like backstroke and my once weak events - distance free and 400 IM; thinking positively about things that I am not as naturally gifted in. I was a high maintenance sprinter as a kid. Now, first time up on the blocks swimming a 400 IM (SCM), I placed 10th in the World for masters swimming! I want to keep going.

Goal - how to place top 3 in the world in one or more events (100 Fly/ 400 IM/ 200 IM - LCM) I'm guessing I need to focus in on an event or two? The problem is that I love variety in my workouts - Fly day, distance free another day, IM day, etc. Currently in the 30-34 age group to move up to the 35-39 group in 2007. Have multiple Top 10 in the nation swims in lots of events.

Currently, swim 1.5 hours six times a week. No weights. I'm guessing I'll need to add that in? I feel great as of now. I could do a lot more. I jog 3 to 5 miles two to three times a week - I'm thinking maybe doubles in the pool could be better. . . Or is this overkill? Continue to work on my mental toughness. . .

Should I watch my food intake more? Am 5'8" and 138. As a kid (15) I was 5'8" and 130.

Thanks for any tips Ande!

ande
November 14th, 2006, 12:28 PM
hello

just noticed this
I don't check this page much
first get under 27
read Swim Faster Faster
just about everything I know about improving in swimming can be found there

do drills, speed work, and get strong
I think the most important exercise is lat press
it exercises the same muscles that you need for the power phase of your stroke

ande


hey ande,

I'm primarily a freestyle swimmer, and I want to get a lot faster in the 50 freestyle. Last year, I was able to go at the fastest time, 27.4 sec. I want to try to get my time under 24.3, which is the WPIAL time. Is this possible?

I'm 5'11
155 lbs
I do lift weights, but also what exercises should I focus on to get a lot faster in sprints, and what type of sets?

Thank you so much for helping, because I really want to get faster.

ande
November 14th, 2006, 12:33 PM
hi kristina,

It sounds like you are already doing a lot of things right
it's great you have a goal
focus on it
it's good you're an IMer since you like variety
It might help you to lose a little weight
did you read Swim Faster Faster
you might find some tips to apply

ande


Me! I'd love advice on a swimming breakthrough!

First, after a 12 year swimming "break," I'm finally at (just a bit better or on them) my best times as a kid. Yippee! I did not start back at this level - I was sucking wind! What helped me have a "mini" breakthrough was:

Coaching kids and adults (it's CHALLENGING to practice what you preach)!

Swimming with the men @ Masters practices - I used to say, "Well, they are men and so fast. They are supposed to beat me." And I'd focus on swimming against the women. No more! I race any one and any age. So this was a bit of a mental adjustment. I've improved a lot just from this one aspect.

Started doing triathlons - this got me in better physical condition. But now, I'm focusing on swimming.

Attitude change in general - really working my weak strokes like backstroke and my once weak events - distance free and 400 IM; thinking positively about things that I am not as naturally gifted in. I was a high maintenance sprinter as a kid. Now, first time up on the blocks swimming a 400 IM (SCM), I placed 10th in the World for masters swimming! I want to keep going.

Goal - how to place top 3 in the world in one or more events (100 Fly/ 400 IM/ 200 IM - LCM) I'm guessing I need to focus in on an event or two? The problem is that I love variety in my workouts - Fly day, distance free another day, IM day, etc. Currently in the 30-34 age group to move up to the 35-39 group in 2007. Have multiple Top 10 in the nation swims in lots of events.

Currently, swim 1.5 hours six times a week. No weights. I'm guessing I'll need to add that in? I feel great as of now. I could do a lot more. I jog 3 to 5 miles two to three times a week - I'm thinking maybe doubles in the pool could be better. . . Or is this overkill? Continue to work on my mental toughness. . .

Should I watch my food intake more?
Am 5'8" and 138. As a kid (15) I was 5'8" and 130.

Thanks for any tips Ande!

CreamPuff
November 18th, 2006, 11:12 AM
Thanks for your encouragement Ande.
Yes - I really have enjoyed reading though lots of the tips (and comments on the tips) on Faster, Faster.

BTW, I just swam with Senior I today and I have to say - this is one way to have a swimming breakthrough I believe! It was blast in addition to crazy (those kids have tons of energy and the coaches really have to reign them in!); scary (6500 yards in well under 2 hours; tight intervals; fast pace meaning hardly any rest between sets; lots of FLY for me as it was stroke day); inspiring (super, long, lean bodies were all around me and the kids and two coaches were very encouraging and welcoming!!!); and exhilarating (I made it through the whole practice!) It was really cool to feel 16 again.

Don't get me wrong. I love the masters practices. But, it's neat to see how far you can push yourself on occasion by swimming with the young 'uns.

What an experience! Can't wait to see if I can hang during the killer long course practices over the Turkey break.

On the weight thing - I see you weigh yourself to the tenth of a pound every day. Woa! I don't think I'll be going that far. I need to simplify things and will see if I can drop 4 to 5 pounds by just cutting out desserts (I eat well otherwise.) It was interesting to look around and feel short and stocky compared to the very long and lean girls and boys - and I'm 5'8" and a size 6 and still felt short and wide! But, I know that the 34 year old body type is not the same as the 16 year old body type! It's a-okay!

Best of luck to you too Ande. I continue to be a fan.

ande
November 30th, 2006, 12:09 AM
very nice to hear from you
thank you and I wish you the best with your training
the most important thing is to remain consistent
especially in the moments when you don't feel like working out

thanks for being a fan

ande


Thanks for your encouragement Ande.
Yes - I really have enjoyed reading though lots of the tips (and comments on the tips) on Faster, Faster.

BTW, I just swam with Senior I today and I have to say - this is one way to have a swimming breakthrough I believe! It was blast in addition to crazy (those kids have tons of energy and the coaches really have to reign them in!); scary (6500 yards in well under 2 hours; tight intervals; fast pace meaning hardly any rest between sets; lots of FLY for me as it was stroke day); inspiring (super, long, lean bodies were all around me and the kids and two coaches were very encouraging and welcoming!!!); and exhilarating (I made it through the whole practice!) It was really cool to feel 16 again.

Don't get me wrong. I love the masters practices. But, it's neat to see how far you can push yourself on occasion by swimming with the young 'uns.

What an experience! Can't wait to see if I can hang during the killer long course practices over the Turkey break.

On the weight thing - I see you weigh yourself to the tenth of a pound every day. Woa! I don't think I'll be going that far. I need to simplify things and will see if I can drop 4 to 5 pounds by just cutting out desserts (I eat well otherwise.) It was interesting to look around and feel short and stocky compared to the very long and lean girls and boys - and I'm 5'8" and a size 6 and still felt short and wide! But, I know that the 34 year old body type is not the same as the 16 year old body type! It's a-okay!

Best of luck to you too Ande. I continue to be a fan.

08sharmag
December 10th, 2006, 10:08 PM
Hey Ande,

The season for my school as started, and for the 50 yd freestyle I have gotten down to a 27 flat as my lifetime best. The time I would like to go, as I mentioned before, is less than a 24.3 sec.

I have heard that running helps swimming, and I believe that, but does it really help in terms of sprinting? For endurance during minutes or hours of swimming, no doubt it will help, but for a 30 second interval of time (or a 24.3 second interval of time) will it make much of a difference?

Thanks a lot,
08sharmag

08sharmag
December 10th, 2006, 10:53 PM
And also, when you said lat press, what is that? What I do is lat pulldown, is that the same thing? I tried searching on google for images of lateral press, but none really came up.

Wisey
December 11th, 2006, 01:14 AM
Here some of my statistics

16 years old
6 feet tall
175 pounds (I can fluxuate it easily from 165-185 depending whats going on in my life)
I swam a summer season that lasted about 6 weeks long and I took my my 50 free time from a 35 second in yards to a 27 high, in yards in just 6 weeks.

Now my HS 5 month long season has begun. My PB is 26.85 in the 50 free and my 100 PB is 1:03.16

My goals are a 58.0 - 100 Free
24.9 - 50 Free

I have 2-3 meets a week. and 3-5 practices a week. So 6 or so swims a week. practices are like...3,500-4,500 yards long.

are my goals realistic? and I want to be a State winner when im 18. is that possible?
Im really athletic and dedicated and I want to know what I can do outside of regular swimming with my team to get better.

and my dive needs work!!

funny story-yesterday at a club meet I feel in the pool after false starting slighltly and trying to stop myself. hahahha.

any who. Sweet forum ande!

Wisey
December 13th, 2006, 12:38 AM
haha today I did a 1:01 in the 100 and a 26.2 in the 50. heck yes to improvements!

ande
December 15th, 2006, 03:50 PM
If you're only focused on the 50
DON'T RUN
Improving your jumping ability will help your 50

Loaf long endurance sets
endurance training kills speed

sprint on sprint sets
get your times
get timed

concentrate on perfecting your technique
lift weights, get strong

lat press is just like taking an underwater freestyle or butterfly pull with weights

don't do the recovery stroke,
go back up the way you came down

ande



Hey Ande,

The season for my school as started, and for the 50 yd freestyle I have gotten down to a 27 flat as my lifetime best. The time I would like to go, as I mentioned before, is less than a 24.3 sec.

I have heard that running helps swimming, and I believe that, but does it really help in terms of sprinting? For endurance during minutes or hours of swimming, no doubt it will help, but for a 30 second interval of time (or a 24.3 second interval of time) will it make much of a difference?

Thanks a lot,
08sharmag

ande
December 15th, 2006, 04:13 PM
hi wisey,

congratulations on your improvements

without seeing you or you swim
I have no way of guessing how much more you can improve within a particular time frame and even if I did it's just one opinion and the only opinion that really matters is yours

so I don't know if your goals are realistic or not
they way you're still improving,
they are probably very doable

you should be able to go much faster in the 100 free

train as often as you can
do a lot of sprinting and race rehearsals
lift weights,

work on each aspect of the 50 and 100

who's to say if you can win state
what does it take now?
for now work on getting under 26

I know if you don't train it won't happen
READ my swim faster faster tips
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=4229

Ande


Here some of my statistics

16 years old
6 feet tall
175 pounds (I can fluxuate it easily from 165 - 185 depending whats going on in my life)
I swam a summer season that lasted about 6 weeks long and I took my my 50 free time from a 35 second in yards to a 27 high, in yards in just 6 weeks.

Now my HS 5 month long season has begun. My PB is 26.85 in the 50 free and my 100 PB is 1:03.16

My goals are a 58.0 - 100 Free
24.9 - 50 Free

I have 2-3 meets a week. and 3-5 practices a week. So 6 or so swims a week. practices are like... 3,500 - 4,500 yards long.

are my goals realistic? and I want to be a State winner when im 18. is that possible?

Im really athletic and dedicated and I want to know what I can do outside of regular swimming with my team to get better.

and my dive needs work!!

funny story-yesterday at a club meet I feel in the pool after false starting slighltly and trying to stop myself. hahahha.

any who. Sweet forum ande!

LindsayNB
December 15th, 2006, 05:11 PM
My 2005/2006 season was a disaster, I didn't improve any of the times I did at 2005 Nationals at the end of the previous season, partly due to getting sick a lot.

This year I decided to try the swim fast in meets by swimming fast in practice strategy, and to concentrate on getting faster in shorter distances, so I have been concentrating on the 50 and 100 in free and fly. I have also started going to the gym. I've swum in five meets this fall and improved my 100 free time in each one, in the last meet I took 3sec off my time from the meet the week before (2.5sec of my 2005 Nationals PB), which really surprised the heck out of me! I only hope that it wasn't a once in a lifetime swim! :eek: I've still got lots of specific things to work on. E.g. starts and turns and SDK. Luckily our coaches have been giving us more sprint stuff in workouts, but I still do a lot of "adjusting" to the sets we get to avoid one long medium intensity workout.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still relatively slow, but it is nice to be getting better again!

Thanks for all the tips and advice you've posted Ande! :notworthy:

ande
December 19th, 2006, 04:00 PM
hi lindsay,

great to hear from you

glad the tips are working

in terms of time drops, I think you have a good ways to go before you hit the wall where improvements stall

keep working on your speed and technique
don't do distance and aerobic sets
keep us posted on your progress

Ande


My 2005/2006 season was a disaster, I didn't improve any of the times I did at 2005 Nationals at the end of the previous season, partly due to getting sick a lot.

This year I decided to try the swim fast in meets by swimming fast in practice strategy, and to concentrate on getting faster in shorter distances, so I have been concentrating on the 50 and 100 in free and fly. I have also started going to the gym. I've swum in five meets this fall and improved my 100 free time in each one, in the last meet I took 3sec off my time from the meet the week before (2.5sec of my 2005 Nationals PB), which really surprised the heck out of me! I only hope that it wasn't a once in a lifetime swim! :eek: I've still got lots of specific things to work on. E.g. starts and turns and SDK. Luckily our coaches have been giving us more sprint stuff in workouts, but I still do a lot of "adjusting" to the sets we get to avoid one long medium intensity workout.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still relatively slow, but it is nice to be getting better again!

Thanks for all the tips and advice you've posted Ande! :notworthy:

jsmwbnc
December 22nd, 2006, 07:31 PM
Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and also new to masters. I'm 20 years old male, my name is Jesse. I just joined masters a couple weeks ago but I joined unattached because the masters team where I live (wilmington, nc) doesn't accomodate my schedule. I swam my first ever masters meet last weekend. I started swimming a little over 3 years ago during my senior year of high school. Before that I was a runner so I came into it was a good aerobic base, I just didn't know anything about technique. After about 6 months on a club team I went 5:13 500 fr, 1:57 200fr, and 52.8 100fr. These times were at a meet where I was shaved and tapered. Back then I was 6'0" and weighed about 155lbs, and was swimming with my team about 30,000 yds. a week. 3 years later and in college I am still 6'0" but 175 lbs. I didn't gain much fat though, mostly muscle because I started lifting weights. The meet I swam last weekend I went 5:16 500 fr, 11:02 1000 fr (first time I swam the 1000 and now it's my new favorite race), and 53.8 100fr. I was pleased with the times from this meet because my training isn't as much as it was when I got my best times and I wasn't shaved or tapered for it. After high school I kept swimming but it was mainly just to stay in shape, I was only doing 2000-3000 easy yards 4 or 5 times a week. I started back serious training again about 4 months ago. My goal for the next year is to break 5:00 in the 500 fr. My training now is I'm swimming tue, thu, and sat about 4,500 yds each practice, and on mon, wed, fri, I lift first then swim between 2,500 and 3,000, all my yardage is scy. I swim alone with no coach or teammates so it can get kinda boring. I also make up all my practice and most of my main sets are between 1500 and 2500 yds free on a 1:20 base interval with other random stuff thrown in there to get the yardage up. I know there is no magic set that makes anyone faster but I'm looking for workouts tailored to improving 500y free and 1000 y free. I know there are ways out there for me to improve I just haven't gotten my hands on them yet. I want to keep my yardage where it's at for now but maybe even it out from day to day. Could it be possible to break 5:00 in the 500 on 4,000 yds./day with weightlifting and quality yardage? Any advice will be greatly appreciated, especially from ande, you really know your stuff. I feel like I am going in circles as far as training goes. I want to have that breakthrough that this thread is all about.

FlyQueen
December 28th, 2006, 03:47 PM
Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and also new to masters. I'm 20 years old male, my name is Jesse. I just joined masters a couple weeks ago but I joined unattached because the masters team where I live (wilmington, nc) doesn't accomodate my schedule. I swam my first ever masters meet last weekend. I started swimming a little over 3 years ago during my senior year of high school. Before that I was a runner so I came into it was a good aerobic base, I just didn't know anything about technique. After about 6 months on a club team I went 5:13 500 fr, 1:57 200fr, and 52.8 100fr. These times were at a meet where I was shaved and tapered. Back then I was 6'0" and weighed about 155lbs, and was swimming with my team about 30,000 yds. a week. 3 years later and in college I am still 6'0" but 175 lbs. I didn't gain much fat though, mostly muscle because I started lifting weights. The meet I swam last weekend I went 5:16 500 fr, 11:02 1000 fr (first time I swam the 1000 and now it's my new favorite race), and 53.8 100fr. I was pleased with the times from this meet because my training isn't as much as it was when I got my best times and I wasn't shaved or tapered for it. After high school I kept swimming but it was mainly just to stay in shape, I was only doing 2000-3000 easy yards 4 or 5 times a week. I started back serious training again about 4 months ago. My goal for the next year is to break 5:00 in the 500 fr. My training now is I'm swimming tue, thu, and sat about 4,500 yds each practice, and on mon, wed, fri, I lift first then swim between 2,500 and 3,000, all my yardage is scy. I swim alone with no coach or teammates so it can get kinda boring. I also make up all my practice and most of my main sets are between 1500 and 2500 yds free on a 1:20 base interval with other random stuff thrown in there to get the yardage up. I know there is no magic set that makes anyone faster but I'm looking for workouts tailored to improving 500y free and 1000 y free. I know there are ways out there for me to improve I just haven't gotten my hands on them yet. I want to keep my yardage where it's at for now but maybe even it out from day to day. Could it be possible to break 5:00 in the 500 on 4,000 yds./day with weightlifting and quality yardage? Any advice will be greatly appreciated, especially from ande, you really know your stuff. I feel like I am going in circles as far as training goes. I want to have that breakthrough that this thread is all about.

I'm not Ande, and I'm just a sprinter, but my advice would be to do more pace work. Your body (and mind) need to know exactly what it feels like to swim at a sub 5:00 pace. Sets of 100s are great, do 10 x 100 - you should be doing them faster than 1:20 if you are going :53 in meets untapered - you should be able to do them on 1:10 no problem ...

A set you need to do/master is 6 x 100 on 1:10 trying to hold under 1:00 on each 100 - then once you can do that do it on 1:05 - the goal of this is simply to make your body swim at the pace you want to during the 500 - that way you know what it feels like ...eventually you want to do a 500 in practice at under a 1:05 pace ...

Also, sets like 5 x 200 desced on 2:40 or even 10 x 200 done 2 @ 3:00, 2 @ 2:55, 2 @ 2:50, 2 @ 2:45 and 2 @ 2:40 or similiar would be good for you - teaching you how to either hold pace or descend the pace ... GOOD LUCK!


I'm sure Ande will have some great advice for you when he gets back!

jsmwbnc
December 28th, 2006, 04:23 PM
When I said I'm doing sets on 1:20 base interval I meant the interval is 1:20 per 100 but I'm swimming around 1:10-1:13 pace. Sorry I wasn't too clear about that. Thanks for the input by the way. So should I be shortening my main sets from 2500 yds to somewhere around 1000-1500 and just swimming faster with less rest?

FlyQueen
December 28th, 2006, 05:39 PM
I understand what you meant, but you should try and drop that down to 1:15. 1:20 seems a bit slow if you are going :53 in meets - really you should be able to hold between 1:05 and 1:10, especially if you are a distance swimmer. Maybe, I'm off on that, but I'm basing this off of my times, and base 100 time and that of my teammates.

Keep the sets at the length you have them. I was just giving you an idea for some shorter sets - pacing is key in a 500 and a 1000, but endurance is important, too. You need to work on both. I'd focus on E2 and E3 sets ....

Also work on turns, and streamlining off of them, the less you actually have to swim the better and less tired you'll be.

jsmwbnc
December 28th, 2006, 07:58 PM
When swimming by myself I can do 1:15 intervals for about 1500 before I start missing the interval. I will start trying to gradually lower my intervals though during main sets and see what I can do. Again, thanks for the advice. Ever since I started swimming about 3 years ago my turns have sucked and are definitely the weakest part of my swimming. I've been trying to work on them lately and have improved them a little bit, my streamlines are pretty good though.

ande
December 29th, 2006, 12:15 PM
hi jesse,

very nice to hear from you
you gave me lots of details

you said
My goal for the next year is to break 5:00 in the 500 fr.

then you asked
Could it be possible to break 5:00 in the 500 on 4,000 yds/day with weightlifting and quality yardage?

you've already gone 5:16
so yes it is possible for you to break 5:00 in the 500 free

here's my suggestions

1) find someone to train with or find a coach to train under
you'll train harder if you're part of a group

2) the best way to break 5:00 is to break it by a lot, train to break 4:55

3) to prepare for the 500 you need to work on
racing, speed, endurance, technique and correct splitting

Racing: swim at one fast 500 for time each week
preferably with someone timing you and getting your splits

Speed: work on your 25, 50, 75 and 100 speed
do fast swims with plenty of rest

Endurance: you need to step up your practice pace for these types of sets
you should be flirting with 1:05 and easily make swims on 1:10

Technique spend time in your practices concentrating on fast turns and great streamlines off each turn

correct splitting to swim the fastest possible time, it's important for you to correctly split your races
if you look at your 500 by 50's, by 100's and by 250's:

by 50
your first 50 should be easy,
the next 4 should feel relaxed
the next 4 should be strong
the last one should be a sprint with all you have left
ie:
27.9 29.9
29.9 29.9
29.9 29.9
29.9 29.9
29.9 28.9


by 100
your first 100 should feel relaxed
your next 100 should be strong but far from all out
next should be consistent
next should be consistent
last should be a sprint with all that's left

57.9
59.9
59.9
59.9
58.9

by 250
you want to keep your first and 2nd 250 with in -1 to 4
ie
out in 2:27.9
back in 2:28.9

you need to swim fast in practice
keep us posted on your progress
you can make your breakthrough happen

Ande




new to masters.
20 years old
male,
Jesse.
joined masters a couple weeks ago
swam my first ever masters meet last weekend.
started swimming a little over 3 years ago during my senior year of high school.
used to be a runner
st didn't know anything about technique.
After about 6 months on a club team
went
5:13 500 fr,
1:57 200fr, and
52.8 100fr.
times at a meet where I was shaved and tapered.
I was 6'0" and weighed about 155lbs,
swimming with my team about 30,000 yds. a week.
3 years later and in college I am still 6'0" but 175 lbs.
I didn't gain much fat though, mostly muscle because I started lifting weights.
The meet I swam last weekend I went
5:16 500 fr,
11:02 1000 fr (first time I swam the 1000 and now it's my new favorite race), and
53.8 100fr.
wasn't shaved or tapered for it. After high school I kept swimming but it was mainly just to stay in shape, I was only doing 2000-3000 easy yards 4 or 5 times a week. I started back serious training again about 4 months ago.
My goal for the next year is to break 5:00 in the 500 fr.
My training now is I'm swimming tue, thu, and sat about 4,500 yds each practice, and on mon, wed, fri, I lift first then swim between 2,500 and 3,000, all my yardage is scy. I swim alone with no coach or teammates so it can get kinda boring. I also make up all my practice and most of my main sets are between 1500 and 2500 yds free on a 1:20 base interval with other random stuff thrown in there to get the yardage up. I know there is no magic set that makes anyone faster but I'm looking for workouts tailored to improving 500y free and 1000 y free. I know there are ways out there for me to improve I just haven't gotten my hands on them yet. I want to keep my yardage where it's at for now but maybe even it out from day to day.
Could it be possible to break 5:00 in the 500 on 4,000 yds./day with weightlifting and quality yardage?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated, especially from ande, you really know your stuff.
I feel like I am going in circles as far as training goes.
I want to have that breakthrough that this thread is all about.

jsmwbnc
December 31st, 2006, 11:26 AM
Ande, thanks a lot for the reply, it was a lot of help. So how long of a set should I aim for doing while using the 1:10/100 interval?

jsmwbnc
December 31st, 2006, 01:31 PM
Another quick question, do you think it's better to lift weights right before swimming or right after it if you are doing them on the same day?

ande
December 31st, 2006, 11:59 PM
see how many you can make
you can also change it up
50's on 35
100's on 1:10
150's on 1:45
you get the idea


Ande, thanks a lot for the reply, it was a lot of help. So how long of a set should I aim for doing while using the 1:10/100 interval?

ande
January 1st, 2007, 12:02 AM
I prefer before
ande


Another quick question, do you think it's better to lift weights right before swimming or right after it if you are doing them on the same day?

Shaman
January 1st, 2007, 11:26 PM
Why is it my technique falls to pieces out of practice? I've never had a race that ever felt great like some sets in practice have. I've begun to think it's my dive because it's such a change from the wall start you get used to in practice.

FlyQueen
January 2nd, 2007, 04:02 PM
I've been told you swim in meets how you swim when you are tired. You might trying to increase your stroke rate too much, you might now be used to racing ... how much race pace work are you doing in practice?



The difference of the dive shouldn't matter for more than a few seconds, anything after the first 15 it should feel the same ...

ande
January 2nd, 2007, 11:07 PM
there could be lots of reasons

not warming up enough
sometimes in practices you get on a roll and feel great
could be poor splitting choices
could be fatigue from previous races
could be being effected by pressure and nervousness

ande


Why is it my technique falls to pieces out of practice? I've never had a race that ever felt great like some sets in practice have. I've begun to think it's my dive because it's such a change from the wall start you get used to in practice.

Shaman
January 11th, 2007, 02:33 PM
I've been told you swim in meets how you swim when you are tired. You might trying to increase your stroke rate too much, you might now be used to racing ... how much race pace work are you doing in practice?



The difference of the dive shouldn't matter for more than a few seconds, anything after the first 15 it should feel the same ...

People have told me my stroke gets very shallow, but how do you control such a thing midrace? Is it simply controlling nerves and not psyching yourself out?

ande
January 12th, 2007, 02:13 PM
Concentrate on keeping your stroke long
your intensity depends on how long your race is
figure out what to concentrate on to do it correctly

Ande


People have told me my stroke gets very shallow, but how do you control such a thing midrace? Is it simply controlling nerves and not psyching yourself out?

mikeh
January 13th, 2007, 11:21 AM
Talking about break-throughs, I HAVE to share my today's experience with everyone, 'cause I have never been happier with my results since I started swimming.

Congratulations to you, and keep up the good work!

ande
January 25th, 2007, 04:18 PM
doesn't anyone wanna break through?

ande

Chuckie
February 1st, 2007, 08:42 PM
I tend to work on my technique while in the pool and work on my conditioning on the land. Although if you only workout in the pool you should just break up your workout into two parts, one for technique and one for conditioning.

krsIM06
February 8th, 2007, 05:53 PM
It's my first year swimming and right now my best times are

50 meter free (29.37)
100 meter free (106.24)

50 yard free (26.54)
100 yard free (59.43)

I'm 16 a junior in highschool and just decided to start swimming this year with my school team. my stroke skill in order from best to worst would be like free, fly, breast, back I'm told i have a natural talent for swimming and have the body for it, I'm like 5'11 with real long arms. i'd loveee to keep improving my times but right now they've been pretty much staying the same.

I don't really know whats wrong with my stroke, other than i dont really understand how my kick should be going its just kind of all over the place i know it needs work.

also im not exactly sure I'm pulling correctly, how can i be sure?

my coach says my finishes and starts need work but that should just come with practice.

I'm in love with this sport and will definatley be swimming year round.

ande
February 12th, 2007, 01:25 PM
train hard
work on speed
lift weights

read and use the ideas from swim faster faster
you can go much faster than what you've been so far

ande


It's my first year swimming and right now my best times are

50 meter free (29.37)
100 meter free (106.24)

50 yard free (26.54)
100 yard free (59.43)

I'm 16 a junior in highschool and just decided to start swimming this year with my school team. my stroke skill in order from best to worst would be like free, fly, breast, back I'm told i have a natural talent for swimming and have the body for it, I'm like 5'11 with real long arms. i'd loveee to keep improving my times but right now they've been pretty much staying the same.

I don't really know whats wrong with my stroke, other than i dont really understand how my kick should be going its just kind of all over the place i know it needs work.

also im not exactly sure I'm pulling correctly, how can i be sure?

my coach says my finishes and starts need work but that should just come with practice.

I'm in love with this sport and will definatley be swimming year round.

Shaman
February 25th, 2007, 12:03 AM
I understand what you meant, but you should try and drop that down to 1:15. 1:20 seems a bit slow if you are going :53 in meets - really you should be able to hold between 1:05 and 1:10, especially if you are a distance swimmer. Maybe, I'm off on that, but I'm basing this off of my times, and base 100 time and that of my teammates.


I think you could definately be swimming 100's faster in practice. I can swim around that fast if not a bit faster than that in practice and I'm still not under 5 minutes.

ande
April 24th, 2007, 04:32 PM
true it helps to swim faster in practice


I think you could definately be swimming 100's faster in practice. I can swim around that fast if not a bit faster than that in practice and I'm still not under 5 minutes.

Muppet
April 25th, 2007, 12:40 AM
doesn't anyone wanna break through?

ande

YOU BET I DO, Ande!
My main goal for this year are to go 4:55 in the 500, but am looking for PBs in the rest of my events. Haven't yet gotten under 5 (was a 5:01 high at '05 scy nats, :03 last year), but I figure if I set the bar high, I can "disappoint" myself with a 4:59.99. Injury free year for the first time since 04. Been working hard, playing ice hockey for extra cardio and crosstraining. Its been a good training year - i've been able to consistently hold under 1:05s on 100s; sub 1:07s on 200s and right about 1:09s on 300s in practice throughout the winter/spring. Sprint 100s have been under :59 (as low as :57) all year, which is something that has been difficult in the past. we've been doing a test set of 75s throughout the year, every other wednesday, and I've been at :42 for the last 3 weeks. I feel like my stroke is holding together a lot better at the end of a 500 than it used to.
:groovy:

ande
May 1st, 2007, 04:53 PM
It would be great for you to break 5:00 in the 500

If you are good at SDK, it could come from taking 3 kicks off each turn.
Keep working on your sprints, splitting and conditioning.
Train to finish fast
It would definitely help you to swim faster in practice, keep testing and pushing your limits.

Ande


YOU BET I DO, Ande!
My main goal for this year are to go 4:55 in the 500, but am looking for PBs in the rest of my events. Haven't yet gotten under 5 (was a 5:01 high at '05 scy nats, :03 last year), but I figure if I set the bar high, I can "disappoint" myself with a 4:59.99. Injury free year for the first time since 04. Been working hard, playing ice hockey for extra cardio and crosstraining. Its been a good training year - i've been able to consistently hold under
1:05s on 100s; sub
1:07s on 200s and right about
1:09s on 300s in practice throughout the winter/spring. Sprint 100s have been under :59 (as low as :57) all year, which is something that has been difficult in the past. we've been doing a test set of 75s throughout the year, every other wednesday, and I've been at :42 for the last 3 weeks. I feel like my stroke is holding together a lot better at the end of a 500 than it used to.
:groovy:

Muppet
May 3rd, 2007, 12:55 AM
It would be great for you to break 5:00 in the 500

If you are good at SDK, it could come from taking 3 kicks off each turn.
Keep working on your sprints, splitting and conditioning.
Train to finish fast
It would definitely help you to swim faster in practice, keep testing and pushing your limits.

Ande

Thanks, Ande!

Regarding the testing/pushing limits, almost hurled up the food samples I had tested earlier in the day. I've been working those SDKs the last couple of months, but am getting in only 1-2 per turn. I am finding that I can't work in 3 consistently w/o either losing all my air (and thus an immediate energy drain), or getting timing to work well with my first stroke.
I think the most interesting thing will be how everything holds up with this being the very last event of nationals. It worked very well for worlds. I am hoping for more of the same.

knelson
May 3rd, 2007, 02:38 PM
I think the most interesting thing will be how everything holds up with this being the very last event of nationals. It worked very well for worlds. I am hoping for more of the same.

I agree as I'm in the same boat. I decided to only swim the 500 on the last day. I hope that helps!

ande
May 18th, 2007, 12:18 PM
cool
please let me know how it goes

ande


Thanks, Ande!

Regarding the testing/pushing limits, almost hurled up the food samples I had tested earlier in the day. I've been working those SDKs the last couple of months, but am getting in only 1-2 per turn. I am finding that I can't work in 3 consistently w/o either losing all my air (and thus an immediate energy drain), or getting timing to work well with my first stroke.
I think the most interesting thing will be how everything holds up with this being the very last event of nationals. It worked very well for worlds. I am hoping for more of the same.

Jazz Hands
May 21st, 2007, 04:27 PM
I just had a major swimming breakthrough in the 50 free at nationals, and I attribute it to two things: muscle mass from lifting heavy weights at low reps (weighted chin-ups, weighted dips, squats, and deadlifts), and race-specific training. The only swimming workouts I did were simply 1x50 freestyle all out. I dropped over a second (22 to 21) from nationals last year.

knelson
May 21st, 2007, 07:08 PM
The only swimming workouts I did were simply 1x50 freestyle all out.

Now, that's taking the "quality over quantity" thing to the extreme!

You only ever swam 50 yards per workout and went a 21 second 50 free? That is truly astounding.

Jazz Hands
May 21st, 2007, 07:17 PM
Now, that's taking the "quality over quantity" thing to the extreme!

You only ever swam 50 yards per workout and went a 21 second 50 free? That is truly astounding.

Sort of. Getting to 22 seconds took years of high yardage training. And I think that my weight workouts were just as important as what I did in the pool, although those were also very low volume.

It's astounding by the standards of traditional swimming training, but I was thinking logically and using my knowledge about physiology, psychology, and adaptation. I know that muscles are what moves us through the water, so bigger muscles should mean faster swimming. I also know that to improve at a skill, you only have to practice that specific skill. I wanted to improve my 50 free, so I practiced swimming the 50 free.

P.S. Are you from Husky Masters? I'm from WWU, and I swam with a couple Huskies on relays this weekend.

ande
May 22nd, 2007, 12:51 PM
congratulations

you were 22 point what?
you went 21 point what?

How old are you?
did you do any warm up or warm down?

You don't have to do much yardage to swim a fast 50

Stronger muscles and great body shape lead to faster swimming
though there comes a point of diminishing returns in the
swimming speed vs strength vs muscle mass formula
otherwise taken to the extreme, body builders would be the fastest swimmers and they are not

that type of training defies conventional thinking.

did you do any other events?




Sort of. Getting to 22 seconds took years of high yardage training. And I think that my weight workouts were just as important as what I did in the pool, although those were also very low volume.

It's astounding by the standards of traditional swimming training, but I was thinking logically and using my knowledge about physiology, psychology, and adaptation. I know that muscles are what moves us through the water, so bigger muscles should mean faster swimming. I also know that to improve at a skill, you only have to practice that specific skill.
I wanted to improve my 50 free,
so I practiced swimming the 50 free.

P.S. Are you from Husky Masters?
I'm from WWU, and I swam with a couple Huskies on relays this weekend.

Jazz Hands
May 22nd, 2007, 01:15 PM
congratulations

you were 22 point what?
you went 21 point what?

How old are you?
did you do any warm up or warm down?

You don't have to do much yardage to swim a fast 50

Stronger muscles and great body shape lead to faster swimming
though there comes a point of diminishing returns in the
swimming speed vs strength vs muscle mass formula
otherwise taken to the extreme, body builders would be the fastest swimmers and they are not

that type of training defies conventional thinking.

did you do any other events?

So many questions!

I only did relays last year, and I think my best split was 22.1.

This year I went 20.94 on a relay and 21.59 in the individual.

I'm 21 years old.

I swam the medley relay on Saturday afternoon, and the 50 free Sunday morning. I warmed up a little bit on Saturday morning, mostly practicing starts because my pool doesn't have any starting blocks. After that I just did my races without warming up.

I only did the 50 free because it's the one event I really love to do.

You may be right about diminishing returns. I plan to keep lifting and hopefully gaining muscle until it no longer helps me. I also want to find a way to practice my starts more, because they were definitely the worst part of my races.

knelson
May 22nd, 2007, 02:08 PM
P.S. Are you from Husky Masters? I'm from WWU, and I swam with a couple Huskies on relays this weekend.

Yes, I know who you are now because I saw you before the relay on Saturday. I swam in the PNA 35+ A relay, so you guys went just after we did. You mentioned something about swimming against Anthony Ervin.

Obviously your training strategy is working for you.

Jazz Hands
May 22nd, 2007, 02:49 PM
Yes, I know who you are now because I saw you before the relay on Saturday. I swam in the PNA 35+ A relay, so you guys went just after we did. You mentioned something about swimming against Anthony Ervin.

Obviously your training strategy is working for you.

Yep, that was me. I didn't get a chance to chase down Anthony Ervin because he ended up swimming backstroke.

Dolphin72
May 25th, 2007, 10:16 PM
What I think most people forget about is recup time. We all push ourselves the the limits and maybe you started out a few days a week at first. Now though as you are stronger and a more consistent swimmer the days end up being anywhere from 6-7 days a week. It is very important for any athlete to have down time though. It is similar to running. Most runners know that at some point you just stop improving. Your body adjusts, but doesn' have time to build itself back up. That is why many good runners will have slow and easy work outs or even no workout days mixed in to the hard core days. What I am thinking is that maybe you need to pull pack a little in your training in order for your body to recover from all the break down. Try it. It couldn't hurt. Try for a balance between easy and hard workouts and maybe 2 days of cross-training mixed in. Also, rest atleast one day. After you do this for atleast 4 weeks tell me if you see any difference in your performance.

angelicswimbabe
June 4th, 2007, 12:30 AM
Why is it bad to run for sprint swims?

I am 18 years old and swim with my college. Last season, I only dropped a tenth of a second in my 50 free - from 25.6 to 25.5 when I was hoping to break 25. I thought running would help. My coach also has me swimming the 100 free and I may swim either the 200 free or the 100 fly as my third event. Is running that bad? Can I run and do jumping exercises?

I was hoping the run would give me overall strength so that I can last through our three day prelims and finals meet.

Thanks!

ande
June 4th, 2007, 12:58 PM
You don't need to run to improve your swimming:

You need to
1) lift weights and get stronger,
2) sprint and get faster,
3) improve your streamlined dolphin kick (SDK), and
4) improve your sprinting technique



Why is it bad to run for sprint swims?

I am 18 years old and swim with my college. Last season, I only dropped a tenth of a second in my 50 free - from 25.6 to 25.5 when I was hoping to break 25. I thought running would help. My coach also has me swimming the 100 free and I may swim either the 200 free or the 100 fly as my third event. Is running that bad? Can I run and do jumping exercises?

I was hoping the run would give me overall strength so that I can last through our three day prelims and finals meet.

Thanks!

Rob Copeland
June 4th, 2007, 02:26 PM
Why is it bad to run for sprint swims?Ashley,

Running is not bad for sprint swimmers.

However, the type of running you do is what determines how much benefit translates to your swimming. For example running stadium stairs and repeat sprints (40’s, 100’s and 200’s) can be beneficial. Running 10K’s, not so much.

Also running will not give you overall strength. Swimming sprints demands more core body and upper body muscle groups. Running does nothing for these.

Syd
June 13th, 2007, 01:55 PM
This is my first post. I have been lurking for about a month trying to absorb the wealth of information on this site but the sheer volume of it all is quite overwhelming and the search function does not always yield the results I want it to, so forgive me if I repeat some questions others have already asked.

I last competed when I was 16 years old. I turned 40 two weeks ago. Don't be alarmed, I have exercised in the interim. I ran half marathons in my early 20's, played waterpolo in my late 20's, have swum laps intermittently and have regularly used the Royal Canadian Airforce 5BX plan. (Anyone else on this site used that fitness routine?) Unfortunately, as my father once scandalously said, and I scandalously repeat, I don't know whether I learned to talk first or smoke first and my bouts of exercise have been punctuated by a pack a day. I kicked it finally over three years ago.

About a year ago I started swimming regularly: 3 - 4 times a week and covering a distance of only 1000m each session. Typically I would do a 500m warm up followed by 10 x 50m at the fastest pace I could manage, allowing myself enough rest between each 50 to maintain a really fast sprint. That meant taking anything from 2- 4 mins rest between each 50m. This worked pretty well and my time for 50m got faster until it levelled out at about 27 secs. This was roughly what I used to do when I was 16. To be honest it was such a long time ago I can't remember but I don't think I ever went 26. My fastest time back then (Summer of '83) for the 100m was 57. I never trained particularly hard and my coaches weren't particularly good either. I remember my one coach used to bark "1000m crawl. Take your marks, (and then he would utter this strange guttural sound, emulating a starting gun) HUT!" and off he would go into his office to read the newspaper. My other coach, although a much more likeable fellow never really gave me any advice on my stroke and how it could be improved. In his defence, though, I never showed enough interest that would motivate him to spend time and effort on me!

About 7 months ago I upped my distance to 2000m a workout, adding a set of 10 x 100m at 2 min intervals. I would start the first one off at a slow 1:20 and descend the set until I was doing the final one at about 1:05. That exhausted me when I first started doing it.

It paid off. 3 months ago I got a friend to time me off the blocks in 50LCM pool and I went 26:52. It didn't feel smooth though. I was fighting the water.

About that time I found this site and realised the need to increase my distance considerably. I now swim 6 times a week, doing 4000m four times a week and 2500m twice a week. A 4000m session might typically include: 500m warm up, 5 x 200m @ 3:15, 10 x 100 @ 1:45 or 1:30, 500m kick (alternating 50 free, 50 fly, 50 breast), 40 x 25m @ 30secs (alternating free and fly). Sometimes I will do 20 X 100 instead of the 200's but otherwise that is pretty much it. Not much variation. On the shorter days I will focus more on sprinting.

Now I haven't got anyone to time me again so I don't know if my 50 time has improved or not ( I suspect it might have marginally but probably not that much) however my stamina certainly has. To give you an example I can now do those 10 X 100m's @ 1:45 mainting 1:08 for all of them and then with and extra 2 mins rest after the 9th one, do the final one in 59.

I should mention at this point I am quite addicted to my swimming workouts. I have to force myself to take one day off a week and I hate doing it. I am having so much fun swimming. It was never this much fun when I was a kid.

My question: how can I make a significant improvement on my times?

My problem areas: My Kick - practically non-existent, my legs cross over the whole time and I have no idea if I have a six beat or two beat kick. It most certainly can't be a 6 beats per stroke but it could quite conceivably be 6 per 25m. Quite frankly I don't know how I would go about calculating it. I am so busy trying to breathe smoothly and pull efficiently that I couldn't possibly, at the same time, divert my attention to count my kick as well. Everything would go to pieces. For the most part it feels as if my legs drag lazily behind me.

SDK - I had no idea what that was until I joined this site - honest. Mine is terribly weak as I discovered.

Starts - have only done one of those in the last 24 years!

Other strokes. I swim a pretty competent Fly. Breastroke is ok but then whose isn't? Backstroke is my worst. I feel like there is water going up my nose and I am about to drown. I swim in fear of breaking my hand against the wall and can't wait to turn over onto my stomach again.

What else is relevant? Ok, perhaps my goals. I would like to do 56 for the 100m, 25 for the 50m and go under 2:10 for the 200m free. I would also like to add a 50 fly and maybe a 100 fly as 4th and 5th events.

Oh, I didn't mention that I train on my own. Swimming is not a big sport in Taiwan and I have yet to find someone to train with. I am constantly racing the clock. Also I imagine I have this 'other swimmer' in the lane next to me who is always a shoulder length ahead and this helps a lot.

Finally, I am really impressed with the solid advice on this site and have been motivated in no small way by the encouragements. I think of Ande in particular.

Syd

ande
June 18th, 2007, 11:45 AM
hi Syd,

great to hear from you
sorry it took so long to respond
I started this same thread in general so I'd be more likely to see it
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=6979

you wrote: my goals are:
56 100m fr,
25 50m fr and
2:09.9 200m free

You asked:
How can I make a significant improvement on my times?
First specify the tenths and hundredths of your goals
which goal is most important to you?
Train for that one

Train to sprint

1) do fast 15's, 25's, 50's and 100's with plenty of rest
get timed

2) get a hi-neck fast skin suit

3) lift weights and get strong

4) keep training consistently

5) Read Swim Faster Faster and apply the sprint tips
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=4229

you're off to a strong start

good luck

ande

ps I answered more of your questions in this thread
http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=98147&postcount=1482





This is my first post. I have been lurking for about a month trying to absorb the wealth of information on this site but the sheer volume of it all is quite overwhelming and the search function does not always yield the results I want it to, so forgive me if I repeat some questions others have already asked.

I last competed when I was 16 years old. I turned 40 two weeks ago. Don't be alarmed, I have exercised in the interim. I ran half marathons in my early 20's, played waterpolo in my late 20's, have swum laps intermittently and have regularly used the Royal Canadian Airforce 5BX plan. (Anyone else on this site used that fitness routine?) Unfortunately, as my father once scandalously said, and I scandalously repeat, I don't know whether I learned to talk first or smoke first and my bouts of exercise have been punctuated by a pack a day. I kicked it finally over three years ago.

About a year ago I started swimming regularly: 3 - 4 times a week and covering a distance of only 1000m each session. Typically I would do a 500m warm up followed by 10 x 50m at the fastest pace I could manage, allowing myself enough rest between each 50 to maintain a really fast sprint. That meant taking anything from 2- 4 mins rest between each 50m. This worked pretty well and my time for 50m got faster until it levelled out at about 27 secs. This was roughly what I used to do when I was 16. To be honest it was such a long time ago I can't remember but I don't think I ever went 26. My fastest time back then (Summer of '83) for the 100m was 57. I never trained particularly hard and my coaches weren't particularly good either. I remember my one coach used to bark "1000m crawl. Take your marks, (and then he would utter this strange guttural sound, emulating a starting gun) HUT!" and off he would go into his office to read the newspaper. My other coach, although a much more likeable fellow never really gave me any advice on my stroke and how it could be improved. In his defence, though, I never showed enough interest that would motivate him to spend time and effort on me!

About 7 months ago I upped my distance to 2000m a workout, adding a set of 10 x 100m at 2 min intervals. I would start the first one off at a slow 1:20 and descend the set until I was doing the final one at about 1:05. That exhausted me when I first started doing it.

It paid off. 3 months ago I got a friend to time me off the blocks in 50LCM pool and I went 26:52. It didn't feel smooth though. I was fighting the water.

About that time I found this site and realised the need to increase my distance considerably. I now swim 6 times a week, doing 4000m four times a week and 2500m twice a week. A 4000m session might typically include: 500m warm up, 5 x 200m @ 3:15, 10 x 100 @ 1:45 or 1:30, 500m kick (alternating 50 free, 50 fly, 50 breast), 40 x 25m @ 30secs (alternating free and fly). Sometimes I will do 20 X 100 instead of the 200's but otherwise that is pretty much it. Not much variation. On the shorter days I will focus more on sprinting.

Now I haven't got anyone to time me again so I don't know if my 50 time has improved or not ( I suspect it might have marginally but probably not that much) however my stamina certainly has. To give you an example I can now do those 10 X 100m's @ 1:45 mainting 1:08 for all of them and then with and extra 2 mins rest after the 9th one, do the final one in 59.

I should mention at this point I am quite addicted to my swimming workouts. I have to force myself to take one day off a week and I hate doing it. I am having so much fun swimming. It was never this much fun when I was a kid.

My question: how can I make a significant improvement on my times?

My problem areas: My Kick - practically non-existent, my legs cross over the whole time and I have no idea if I have a six beat or two beat kick. It most certainly can't be a 6 beats per stroke but it could quite conceivably be 6 per 25m. Quite frankly I don't know how I would go about calculating it. I am so busy trying to breathe smoothly and pull efficiently that I couldn't possibly, at the same time, divert my attention to count my kick as well. Everything would go to pieces. For the most part it feels as if my legs drag lazily behind me.

SDK - I had no idea what that was until I joined this site - honest. Mine is terribly weak as I discovered.

Starts - have only done one of those in the last 24 years!

Other strokes. I swim a pretty competent Fly. Breastroke is ok but then whose isn't? Backstroke is my worst. I feel like there is water going up my nose and I am about to drown. I swim in fear of breaking my hand against the wall and can't wait to turn over onto my stomach again.

What else is relevant? Ok, perhaps my goals. I would like to do 56 for the 100m, 25 for the 50m and go under 2:10 for the 200m free. I would also like to add a 50 fly and maybe a 100 fly as 4th and 5th events.

Oh, I didn't mention that I train on my own. Swimming is not a big sport in Taiwan and I have yet to find someone to train with. I am constantly racing the clock. Also I imagine I have this 'other swimmer' in the lane next to me who is always a shoulder length ahead and this helps a lot.

Finally, I am really impressed with the solid advice on this site and have been motivated in no small way by the encouragements. I think of Ande in particular.

Syd

ande
August 5th, 2007, 11:05 PM
doesn't any one else want to break on through to the other side?

J0nath0n3
October 20th, 2007, 12:20 AM
One of the keys to a break through season is

THE REASONS you want to breakthrough.

I had a break through season in the summer of 1984.

that summer I went from

21.0 to 20.5 in the 50 y Free
46.4 to 44.7 in the 100 y Free and
50.6 to 49.1 in the 100 y Fly.

One of the reasons I broke through is
I HAD TO.

In the spring Eddie Reese told me
if I didn't make National cuts.
He wouldn't let me back on the team in the fall.
I quit swimming in April, 1984 for a whole month.
In early May I felt like I had more to prove,
I didn't want to quit
so I started training to make Nationals and
earn a spot on the team for the Fall of 1984.

If you really want to break through
Set a goal, and
Find the reasons why you must,
Then remind yourself of those reasons
just before you train and while you train.

Create a new self image of
who you hope to be and
what you hope to do.

Then every moment in practice,

act as if you already are
what you most want to be. But
don't just think it and
don't just say it
PROVE IT BY THE WAY YOU TRAIN

ACTING AS IF
IS POWERFUL STUFF.

This alone will help you perform at a higher level and
will help you handle training fatigue.

I hope you breakthrough,

Ande
Thanks Ande!
Im going to follow your adviice my season starts this tuesday morning. Im so excited to get back in the water.

I really Want to improove my 50m Free Style!
I do it in 26s Right now. Best i done was high 25's
Do you have any advice?
Im 6'5 190lbs.
16, And im swimming for my high school team and i REALLY want to make state on the individual relay this year.
I need to get to at least 23.50 to make it
but i want to go down to at least 22s so i actually dont get last place in state!
What should i do!?
I have from This tuesday 5am in the morning till february 9th next year to make it! Ahh.
Please Tell me if you got anything that can improove my free style.
Id apreciate it Thats my breakthrough.
I kick pretty fast. Im going to try counting my kicks now to see if im doing 6beat
and im going to work on my SDK.. But i never used it before so ill tell you the results later if you got any tips just post it here and let me KNOW! Thanks!

ande
October 23rd, 2007, 12:26 AM
hi jonathan

work on your free technique, SDK, and speed
starts and turns too

lift weights and get strong

sprint and get fast
get timed on 25's and 50's

learn how to correctly split your 50's and 100's

You've got a great frame
not many swimmers are 6' 5"

if you want to go 23.5
you need to split it
11.6 11.9
11.5 12.0
11.4 12.1
11.3 12.2
11.2 12.3
11.1 12.2
so train to
get out in 10.9 from your start to your feet
come home in 11.9 from your feet to your hand


read and use the ideas in
swim faster faster
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=4229




Thanks Ande!
Im going to follow your adviice my season starts this tuesday morning. Im so excited to get back in the water.

I really Want to improove my 50m Free Style!
I do it in 26s Right now. Best i done was high 25's
Do you have any advice?
Im 6'5 190lbs.
16, And im swimming for my high school team and i REALLY want to make state on the individual relay this year.
I need to get to at least 23.50 to make it
but i want to go down to at least 22s so i actually dont get last place in state!
What should i do!?
I have from This tuesday 5am in the morning till february 9th next year to make it! Ahh.
Please Tell me if you got anything that can improove my free style.
Id apreciate it Thats my breakthrough.
I kick pretty fast. Im going to try counting my kicks now to see if im doing 6beat
and im going to work on my SDK.. But i never used it before so ill tell you the results later if you got any tips just post it here and let me KNOW! Thanks!

Terry5306
October 23rd, 2007, 12:33 PM
Hi Ande,

I just cannot improve my swim splits over the distance. I've been trying for 3 years now with very little improvement. I can swim a sub 30 sec. 50 yard and a sub 1 minute in a 100 yard but cannot hold it over longer distances. My best distance splits are:

500yds. = 6:18
1.5K = 22:19
1 mile = 23:56
2.4 mile = 1:03:50

I've been swimming 4x per week about 3,000-4,000 yards per day. Mostly sets like 20x100's w/15 sec rest and 10x200's w/20 sec rest and 4x500's w/30 sec rest. My 20x100's are average about 1:18 per, and that's the fastest I can go and still do 20 of them.

I have good form in water. I think it may be my strength that's the issue, I'm 6'3 and 175lbs with broad shoulders with size 10.5 feet and normal size hands, (ie. large frame with normal size hands and feet.) Is it my size that is limiting me and strength issues? My main goal is to go sub 20 in 1.5K swim. What workouts or things should I be doing to get out of this rut?

Thanks,
Terry
:notworking:

J0nath0n3
October 23rd, 2007, 05:52 PM
hi jonathan

work on your free technique, SDK, and speed
starts and turns too

lift weights and get strong

sprint and get fast
get timed on 25's and 50's

learn how to correctly split your 50's and 100's

You've got a great frame
not many swimmers are 6' 5"

if you want to go 23.5
you need to split it
11.6 11.9
11.5 12.0
11.4 12.1
11.3 12.2
11.2 12.3
11.1 12.2
so train to
get out in 10.9 from your start to your feet
come home in 11.9 from your feet to your hand


read and use the ideas in
swim faster faster
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=4229
sweet thanks man, look i get cramps on my leg sometimes when i do sdk

pwolf66
October 24th, 2007, 12:46 PM
sweet thanks man, look i get cramps on my leg sometimes when i do sdk

With that information, I would guess that you are kicking from the thighs and not from the hips. a good SDK involves the entre body, like a wave that starts small at the extended hands and ends large at the feet.

Paul

J0nath0n3
October 27th, 2007, 09:41 AM
With that information, I would guess that you are kicking from the thighs and not from the hips. a good SDK involves the entre body, like a wave that starts small at the extended hands and ends large at the feet.

Paul
THANKS PAUL! ur so right cause i got it on my thighs Im gonna work on using my entire body under water..

J0nath0n3
October 27th, 2007, 10:56 AM
I just had a major swimming breakthrough in the 50 free at nationals, and I attribute it to two things: muscle mass from lifting heavy weights at low reps (weighted chin-ups, weighted dips, squats, and deadlifts), and race-specific training. The only swimming workouts I did were simply 1x50 freestyle all out. I dropped over a second (22 to 21) from nationals last year.
Did you feel like you worked hard and swam faster in practice to have dropped that much on ur 50?

ande
October 30th, 2007, 12:54 PM
depends
different people do it different ways
michael phelps has a long sweeping SDK
Ian Crocker takes short fast kicks
figure out what works best for you


With that information, I would guess that you are kicking from the thighs and not from the hips. a good SDK involves the entre body, like a wave that starts small at the extended hands and ends large at the feet.

Paul

ande
October 30th, 2007, 12:56 PM
all he did in practice is one fast 50
he got stronger and swam faster


Did you feel like you worked hard and swam faster in practice to have dropped that much on ur 50?

J0nath0n3
October 31st, 2007, 09:05 PM
depends
different people do it different ways
michael phelps has a long sweeping SDK
Ian Crocker takes short fast kicks
figure out what works best for you
Im better with SDK .. / faster in my opinion at least from the walls.

I am having problems with my butterfly anytips? i often get so tired and i lose balance alot..

ande
November 1st, 2007, 04:36 PM
part of it is strength and conditioning get stronger and swim faster
part of it is technique, I can't offer corrections sight unseen
i need to see you swim,
put a vid of you swimming fly on youtube and give us the link

ande


Im better with SDK .. / faster in my opinion at least from the walls.

I am having problems with my butterfly anytips? i often get so tired and i lose balance alot..

J0nath0n3
November 6th, 2007, 08:45 PM
part of it is strength and conditioning get stronger and swim faster
part of it is technique, I can't offer corrections sight unseen
i need to see you swim,
put a vid of you swimming fly on youtube and give us the link

ande

Okay i will my coach is going to film us this saturday and hopefully i can put it on youtube for you to see ! :)

ande
November 16th, 2007, 02:53 PM
look forward to seeing it

ande


Okay i will my coach is going to film us this saturday and hopefully i can put it on youtube for you to see ! :)

J0nath0n3
November 19th, 2007, 09:57 PM
look forward to seeing it

ande
ugh i got it on my video camara but my computer doesnt seem to be wanting to copy it im so pissed.. what do i do lol.

ande
December 19th, 2007, 04:46 PM
not sure
let us know
when you got something to watch

ande


ugh i got it on my video camara but my computer doesnt seem to be wanting to copy it im so pissed.. what do i do lol.

ande
February 23rd, 2008, 06:38 PM
anyone want to breakthrough
what are you going to do about it

ande

SwimMann
February 24th, 2008, 01:46 AM
I want to have a breakthrough. I have a swim meet the first of March and after that I will put in a solid 2-3 months of base and hope to have a great summer meet in Missouri at the Show-Me-State games. My goals are a 24s 50yd free, 55s 100yd free, 2:05 200yd free, 5:40 500yd free, 1:08 100 back, and a 1:07 100 fly. I need to do the following things for that to happen:

1)Swim faster repeats during practice
2)Swim more doubles
3)Eat healthier and drink less around race time
4)Get technique help from coach
5)Treat my goal like the Olympic Games
6)Stretch more

Big AL
March 5th, 2008, 05:55 PM
Of course pool training, weights, drill, technique, core, starts, turns, etc.

But I have found the most critical factor is excess weight. The water displacement (cross section being pushed through the water), feeding it oxygen, and the big problem for me.... the heat dissipation. The bigger I am, the harder it is to train, and the HOTTER I get, until it is almost intolerable to train any faster... the radiator totally tapped out. Having a thinner core allows me to cool better while I train.

Since our lungs have a limited volume, increasing the efficiency of oxygen uptake against total body mass becomes the paramount factor in any breakthrough. Improving that ratio by reducing excess weight is one way to get there.

ande
March 6th, 2008, 07:10 AM
hey al,

all excellent points
in swim faster faster my tip was
lug less lard
it's an issue for me too
I'm 10 - 20 pounds over my ideal weight

the more our bodies deviate on the plus side due to excess fat
the greater resistance we have in the water and the slower we go



Of course pool training, weights, drill, technique, core, starts, turns, etc.

But I have found the most critical factor is excess weight. The water displacement (cross section being pushed through the water), feeding it oxygen, and the big problem for me.... the heat dissipation. The bigger I am, the harder it is to train, and the HOTTER I get, until it is almost intolerable to train any faster... the radiator totally tapped out. Having a thinner core allows me to cool better while I train.

Since our lungs have a limited volume, increasing the efficiency of oxygen uptake against total body mass becomes the paramount factor in any breakthrough. Improving that ratio by reducing excess weight is one way to get there.

geochuck
March 6th, 2008, 09:34 AM
Ande It is hard to believe you can be overweight. Maybe your prefect weight is in that 10 or 20 lbs you want to lose.

Being too skinny is not going help anyone swim faster.

ande
April 19th, 2008, 04:45 PM
george

I'm in no danger of being too skinny

anyone looking to have a major breakthrough

ande


Ande It is hard to believe you can be overweight. Maybe your prefect weight is in that 10 or 20 lbs you want to lose.

Being too skinny is not going help anyone swim faster.

pwolf66
April 19th, 2008, 10:36 PM
Actually I just realized that I need to do ALOT more drill work as part of my training. Just in the last 2-3 weeks I have lowered both my PRs and my training splits for 50 and 100 free just working on DPS, finger tip and catchup drills. I've gone from 12-13 strokes per 25m to 8-9 strokes per 25m in my drill sessions.

So once Nats are over, there will be quite a lot more drill work for all strokes in my training plan.

Paul

jordangregory
May 19th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Ande,
I had a professor once tell me that having more body fat may be advantageous in swimming, adding buoyancy, allowing one to swimming higher in the water. Less work to keep body floating, higher in water so less resistance encountered in the water, but more work to pull the extra weight
Greg

ande
May 22nd, 2008, 12:21 PM
I don't buy that theory
The thinner a swimmer is, the less resistance they require to slice through the water. Swimmers have to balance muscle and size.

You could test it

swim a fast 100 for time then

lose 15 pounds and retest then

gain 30 pounds and retest again

compare the results

ande


Ande,
I had a professor once tell me that having more body fat may be advantageous in swimming, adding buoyancy, allowing one to swimming higher in the water. Less work to keep body floating, higher in water so less resistance encountered in the water, but more work to pull the extra weight
Greg

jordangregory
May 23rd, 2008, 04:07 PM
It would be impossible to test the way you have presented. There are so many more variables as opposed to weight when losing 15 lbs and then gaining 30lbs. For example, gaining 30 lbs is most likely due to a lack of training.
In my experience, which is in no way scientific, when I gained 15lbs of fat in high school one season, I still swam fast, even without much training. All of my coaches and others that I raced were amazed that with how I looked, and with how little I trained, that I could be as fast as I was.
I think if we simply look at biomechanical and physiological principles, gaining fat will be offset almost entirely by increased buoyancy if all other physiological factors stay the same (VO2 max, anaerobic threshold, blood buffering properties, anaerobic enzymes, technique, etc.)
If I were to accept that gaining fat causes one to have more resistance on their body, then gaining weight will cause one to train harder during practice, causing additional physiological adaptations, resulting in a wash speed wise. Then, when weight is lost, thus, reducing work during practice, times will get worse, another wash.

Ande said:

The thinner a swimmer is, the less resistance they require to slice through the water. Swimmers have to balance muscle and size.

You could test it

swim a fast 100 for time then

lose 15 pounds and retest then

gain 30 pounds and retest again

compare the results

ande
May 23rd, 2008, 04:41 PM
i was kind of kidding about the lose / gain challenge

Look at the bodies of the fastest humans on the planet
in almost all cases they are lean and powerful
otherwise FAT people would be the fastest swimmers and they aren't
swimmers have to balance strength with their ability to slice through the water

read build a better boat
http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?p=73330

what were your times that high school season?

I've seen people swim fast with very little training and it kind of baffles me

ande



It would be impossible to test the way you have presented. There are so many more variables as opposed to weight when losing 15 lbs and then gaining 30lbs. For example, gaining 30 lbs is most likely due to a lack of training.

In my experience, which is in no way scientific, when I gained 15lbs of fat in high school one season, I still swam fast, even without much training. All of my coaches and others that I raced were amazed that with how I looked, and with how little I trained, that I could be as fast as I was.
I think if we simply look at biomechanical and physiological principles, gaining fat will be offset almost entirely by increased buoyancy if all other physiological factors stay the same (VO2 max, anaerobic threshold, blood buffering properties, anaerobic enzymes, technique, etc.)

If I were to accept that gaining fat causes one to have more resistance on their body, then gaining weight will cause one to train harder during practice, causing additional physiological adaptations, resulting in a wash speed wise. Then, when weight is lost, thus, reducing work during practice, times will get worse, another wash.

Ande said:

The thinner a swimmer is, the less resistance they require to slice through the water. Swimmers have to balance muscle and size.

You could test it

swim a fast 100 for time then

lose 15 pounds and retest then

gain 30 pounds and retest again

compare the results

swimman79
July 3rd, 2008, 11:48 AM
-something different than you've been doing

Slid
July 4th, 2008, 04:01 PM
i was kind of kidding about the lose / gain challenge

Look at the bodies of the fastest swimmers on the planet.
In almost all cases they are lean and powerful
otherwise FAT swimmers would be the fastest swimmers and they aren't.
Swimmers have to balance strength with their ability to slice through the water

ande

Never seen a skinny looking blue whale.

But, BTW, I thought the test:

Swim 50
Lose 10 lbs
Swim 50
etc

Was one of the funniest things I ever saw on this site.
You can't be a true American ande, because you "get" irony!

ande
July 4th, 2008, 09:42 PM
thanks
I thought it was too


Never seen a skinny looking blue whale.

But, BTW, I thought the test:

Swim 50
Lose 10 lbs
Swim 50
etc

Was one of the funniest things I ever saw on this site.
You can't be a true American ande, because you "get" irony!

jordangregory
July 5th, 2008, 09:22 PM
It is true that the fastest swimmers are lean. But the question remains, is that because you have to be lean to be a fast swimmer, or is it simply a consequence of the amount of training needed. Perhaps, a higher percent body fat would allow these swimmers to go faster, but it is not possible with all of the long hours of training.
I am no suggesting that a morbidly obese person has the ideal body composition for an elite swimmer, but I do believe that there is a happy medium between 3-4% body fat and, lets say 30% body fat (error on the high side).
Watching the Olympic Trials, I noticed that the top swimmers are really not that lean. I don’t see 3-4% body fat. Many of the top swimmers do not have a visible six pack. There is definitely a layer of fat. Fat that could be lost, but I don’t see any of these talking about how if they could just lose a few extra pounds.
I think the question for this thread should be “what is the ideal percent body fat”
If body fat does not alter the shape of your body dramatically, I believe it would be advantageous for a swimmer to have body composition in the ~15% range. More buoyancy allows for less energy to be used to keep the body on top of the water. I would put my money on a swimmer with 10% body fat as opposed to a swimmer with 5% body fat if all other variables were equal.
Fat floats, and if you can stay on top of the water with fat as opposed to using part of your arm stroke energy, then more energy can be used for forward propulsion as opposed to keeping your body on top of the water.

ViveBene
July 6th, 2008, 12:56 AM
When I was 10 and very skinny and long, I could not float at all. Sank like a rock.

Also, some ppl have a higher specific density (don't know the density of exactly what they are referring to, but some have denser bone) and have a difficult time swimming.

So factors other than body fat percentage enter into the equation.

Seems to me there are energy costs to moving a fat(ter) vessel through the water. Gain a little through floating and lose a little through having to propel self forward.

Interesting question. I see different body types successful in swimming.

VB

ande
July 6th, 2008, 10:55 AM
fat floats however fat creates volume for the swimmer to pull through the pool


It is true that the fastest swimmers are lean. But the question remains, is that because you have to be lean to be a fast swimmer, or is it simply a consequence of the amount of training needed. Perhaps, a higher percent body fat would allow these swimmers to go faster, but it is not possible with all of the long hours of training.
I am no suggesting that a morbidly obese person has the ideal body composition for an elite swimmer, but I do believe that there is a happy medium between 3-4% body fat and, lets say 30% body fat (error on the high side).
Watching the Olympic Trials, I noticed that the top swimmers are really not that lean. I don’t see 3-4% body fat. Many of the top swimmers do not have a visible six pack. There is definitely a layer of fat. Fat that could be lost, but I don’t see any of these talking about how if they could just lose a few extra pounds.
I think the question for this thread should be “what is the ideal percent body fat”
If body fat does not alter the shape of your body dramatically, I believe it would be advantageous for a swimmer to have body composition in the ~15% range. More buoyancy allows for less energy to be used to keep the body on top of the water. I would put my money on a swimmer with 10% body fat as opposed to a swimmer with 5% body fat if all other variables were equal.
Fat floats, and if you can stay on top of the water with fat as opposed to using part of your arm stroke energy, then more energy can be used for forward propulsion as opposed to keeping your body on top of the water.

MAC swimmer
July 6th, 2008, 12:38 PM
Ande,

My kick is weak. I can tell because I can stay with the fastest swimmers when I pull regardless of distance. Any suggestions? Also, I see the ex-college swimmers have insane kicking ability and that they never use kick boards. They are always on their backs in a streamline or face down streamline flutter kick.

Should I focus on fast kicking (on intervals) or hard kicking or more fin work?

Thanks for any help!

jordangregory
July 6th, 2008, 05:50 PM
when one if floating higher, more of their body is above the water line. No need to pull that through the water anymore. Maybe that offsets the weight gain.

ande
July 7th, 2008, 12:04 PM
hey MAC

ABSOLUTELY YES

follow my suggestions in this thread
http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5818


Ande,

My kick is weak. I can tell because I can stay with the fastest swimmers when I pull regardless of distance.
Any suggestions?
Also, I see the ex-college swimmers have insane kicking ability and that they never use kick boards. They are always on their backs in a streamline or face down streamline flutter kick.

Should I focus on fast kicking (on intervals) or hard kicking or more fin work?

Thanks for any help!

ande
July 7th, 2008, 12:13 PM
let it go already

long distance cold water swimming is the only type of swimming where having extra fat is a good thing, it provides insulation
(ie crossing the english channel, swimming from catalina)

please do this:
test yourself in a 50 free right now
then gain 20 pounds of blubber then retest yourself
then report your results

or this
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=134565&postcount=184

even though a heavier you floats more
you still have to drag your body through the water
skinnier people slice through the water better
look at Dara Torres
she's lean and strong, she swam lifetime best times at age 41




when one if floating higher, more of their body is above the water line. No need to pull that through the water anymore. Maybe that offsets the weight gain.

Chris Stevenson
July 7th, 2008, 04:12 PM
I see the ex-college swimmers have insane kicking ability and that they never use kick boards. They are always on their backs in a streamline or face down streamline flutter kick.

Should I focus on fast kicking (on intervals) or hard kicking or more fin work?

I still use a kickboard about 35-40% of the time, mostly when I want to work the legs hard and not worry about breath control. (Snorkels might be good for this also but I still have a love-hate relationship with mine...actually, mostly it's hate.)

Some people use fins a lot and are happy with the results. I only use them occasionally myself, though I've been trying to do more. (I really only like to use them in a LCM pool so I don't have to worry about walls. Also my lane-mates sometimes complain when I put on fins so I try to do it when I swim on my own.)

I think the key to making a kick useful is to attack kick sets with the same intensity and work ethic as "regular" swim sets. Also do them varying distances, not just 25s or 50s.

Also: make some swim sets "kick intensive." For example, you can make it a point to do more kicks from the wall than usual (our coach calls these "double-do" sets, where you go twice as far as usual off the walls) and really push the kicks from the wall while backing off slightly the swim portion (to recover a little before the next wall). Or you can "double-do" the back half of hard repeats to try to work on your ability to use your legs even when you are tired.

jordangregory
July 7th, 2008, 04:29 PM
ande,
ever read this article??
http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=104

There are a range of body compositions that are advantagous for swimming. Many swimmers are in that range. For many, losing weight may be detrimental for a variety of reasons, one being that body fat helps people float. I just think that making a blanket statement that losing weight will help you swim faster is not acurate. If you are 100 lbs over weight, sure. But maybe not if you are at 12% body fat and you drop down to 8%

MAC swimmer
July 7th, 2008, 04:39 PM
Great suggestions. Thank you. I especially like encorporating hard kicking into regular swims. I have to do this anyway, even in a 100 free. I try to build my kick to finish strong rather than bury myself and die at the end. I see elite swimmers can kick so fast that their arm stroke rate never "spins" water...that is a hard kick!

ehoch
July 7th, 2008, 07:22 PM
My next area of improvement will be underwater kicks. Even though I don't believe that I will ever be faster doing 4-5 kicks off the wall compared to one and then swimming, I do believe it will help me off the start and for that 1-2 kicks off the wall.

I need even stronger abs for that

I need to be able to use fins on a more regular basis

I need to start building to the Eddie Reese set (8x100 Fly kicks on your back) - but not go overboard - looking for 1-5 explosive kicks not 100s

This one will be the toughest -- 2-3 dolphin kicks off every single wall.

My main problem is momentum - I am not sure when to start the kick and how to transition into swimming quickly.

jordangregory
July 7th, 2008, 10:28 PM
I am having the same problem off walls, I am not sure when to start kicking. I usually glide for about a second, then do two dolphin kicks before I start swimming. But I feel when I start to kick off the wall, I slow down. Watching Phelps this last week, it seems like he starts his kick as soon as he pushes off the wall.

beluga
July 8th, 2008, 10:11 AM
please do this:
test yourself in a 50 free right now
then gain 20 pounds of blubber then retest yourself
then report your results



Did this experiment

Dec 07, 225#, 50 Fly 36.00scm, converts to about 32.43scy, about .25 off my then best
May 08, 245#, 50Fly 31.42scy, a personal best!!!:applaud:

Unfortunately, by my activity level, appearance, and the way my clothes fit, the extra 20# is blubber. :cry:

Right after the Dec 07 meet I fell on some ice, hurting my shoulder and aggravating the medial epicondylitis (Golfers Elbow) I have in both elbows. Made it difficult to swim much or with any intensity. It also turned out a side effect of the Diclofenic I was taking for my elbows is weight gain.

However, I don’t attribute the improvement to additional ‘flotation’ from the extra 20# of fat. More likely the improvement was due:

1 – When I did swim I did a much higher percentage of kick work, flutter and SDKs
2 – I swam the 50 Fly in Dec after swimming PBs in the 100 & 200 Free, while in May I was rested and it was my first event of the day

The rest of the May meet didn’t go nearly as well as my 50 Fly. I was about a second off my best times in the 50 Bk and Br, within 0.12 of my best in the 100IM (which at my level of swimming is almost as good as a PB).

And my 200 Free, I decided to try save face and just call it a cool down,:whiteflag: it was a just a hair better than my first 200Free at my first masters meet over three years ago and SLOWER than my 200 split from my 500 and 1000 Free.

IMHO, lugging the extra 20# did not make me any faster

Chris Stevenson
July 8th, 2008, 01:24 PM
My main problem is momentum - I am not sure when to start the kick and how to transition into swimming quickly.

Erik, don't over-think it. You obviously have good feel for the water, go with your instinct on when to start kicking and how to best transition to swimming. You should work on it (eg 2-3 hard kicks) on every freestyle turn, not just on specific sets; like anything else it will feel more natural the more you do it in practice.

pwolf66
July 8th, 2008, 02:58 PM
Did this experiment

Dec 07, 225#, 50 Fly 36.00scm, converts to about 32.43scy, about .25 off my then best
May 08, 245#, 50Fly 31.42scy, a personal best!!!:applaud:


Well, I can cast a little doubt on the accuracy of this 'experiment'. I am finding that conversions from SCM to SCY for my Masters swimming is a little suspect. It seems that that extra 7.5 feet per length of meters does not lend itself to a linear translation from yards. Especially in fly. I'm finding that there is about a full second real difference between my real SCY time (26.03) and my converted from SCM time (30.21 converted to a 27.22 SCY) proving that that extra 15 feet can make a huge difference.

Paul

CreamPuff
July 8th, 2008, 03:52 PM
proving that that extra 15 feet can make a huge difference.

Paul

Agreed. My fly times NEVER converted (were always waaay slower in SCM or LCM) until I started doing some beefy fly sets with the kids. Now they convert.

KimRice
July 8th, 2008, 05:18 PM
I would love to have a breakthrough! I didn't swim in college and took a long break from swimming. I've been back swimming very consistently for a little over a year. Mostly I have been training for long open water swims and just signed up to swim the English channel in July 2010.


How many times a week are you training? 5-6. Will start adding doubles soon to start training for the channel. Will build up to 9 practices a week.

How far do you go in each practice? 3-5,000. In the months before a long OW races, I try to do one 10-14,000 practice per week.

How hard and fast do you go? I like to swim at a high intensity. I can make 10-20 hundreds on 1:15. We usually swim most of practice at a base interval of 1:20 and I'll hold about a 1:12 pace. I really would like to be able to comfortably swim on a 1:10 interval by next year.

Do you have any training partners who are as good or better than you? yes usually

Are you splitting your race correctly? usually, though I died during the last hour of my last 12.5 mi race. Didn't have quite enough endurance.

did you taper? yeah

did you shave? yup

are you wearing a fast skin body suit in races? no, but I just got the blue seventy point zero3

how good was the pool you swam in? NA

how psyched were you before and during your race? pretty psyhed

are you making any technique mistakes you could improve? I'm trying to learn the I-pull to increase my turnover. I am about to read Total Immersion and I hope that will be helpful. Also I am trying to work on my kick. I don't kick - at all, not even a 2 beat kick. That makes me start to sink at the end of long races. I run 20 mi/week and have big strong legs, but I don't use them.

how close are you to your ideal body weight? I think I'm about 40 lb over my idea weight. I love love love carbs and sweets. ::sigh:: I'm gonna start the South Beach diet next week

how strong are you? I don't lift but I am pretty strong. I used to use the Vasa trainer and might start doing that again. I also think I could benefit from some abs/core work.

Thanks for the advice!

ViveBene
July 8th, 2008, 09:01 PM
It seems that that extra 7.5 feet per length of meters does not lend itself to a linear translation from yards....<snip> ... proving that that extra 15 feet can make a huge difference.

Paul

Isn't it amazing how the physiology gets so finely trained! After swimming 8 years in a 20-yard pool before moving to a 25-yd pool, I still, 15 months later, have a slight dip in effort and forward motion at yd 21.
:cane:

VB

ande
July 16th, 2008, 04:23 PM
congrats on your goal and posting here

looks like you're well on your way

if you want to swim the channel
it's good to have some insulation

Lynne (who I train with sometimes) swam the channel and catalina
she did a lot of cold water swimming to prepare
here's her blog (http://itisnicetohaveaninterest.com/2.html)
you might find some useful info there

did you have a particular question?



I would love to have a breakthrough! I didn't swim in college and took a long break from swimming. I've been back swimming very consistently for a little over a year. Mostly I have been training for long open water swims and just signed up to swim the English channel in July 2010.


How many times a week are you training?
5-6. Will start adding doubles soon to start training for the channel. Will build up to 9 practices a week.

How far do you go in each practice?
3-5,000. In the months before a long OW races, I try to do one 10-14,000 practice per week.

How hard and fast do you go?
I like to swim at a high intensity. I can make 10-20 hundreds on 1:15. We usually swim most of practice at a base interval of 1:20 and I'll hold about a 1:12 pace. I really would like to be able to comfortably swim on a 1:10 interval by next year.

Do you have any training partners who are as good or better than you?
yes usually

Are you splitting your race correctly?
usually, though I died during the last hour of my last 12.5 mi race. Didn't have quite enough endurance.

did you taper?
yeah

did you shave?
yup

are you wearing a fast skin body suit in races?
no, but I just got the blue seventy point zero3

how good was the pool you swam in?
NA

how psyched were you before and during your race?
pretty psyhed

are you making any technique mistakes you could improve?
I'm trying to learn the I-pull to increase my turnover. I am about to read Total Immersion and I hope that will be helpful. Also I am trying to work on my kick. I don't kick - at all, not even a 2 beat kick. That makes me start to sink at the end of long races. I run 20 mi/week and have big strong legs, but I don't use them.

how close are you to your ideal body weight?
I think I'm about 40 lb over my idea weight. I love love love carbs and sweets. ::sigh:: I'm gonna start the South Beach diet next week

how strong are you?
I don't lift but I am pretty strong. I used to use the Vasa trainer and might start doing that again. I also think I could benefit from some abs/core work.

Thanks for the advice!

KimRice
July 18th, 2008, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the link! I'm sure I will find it helpful.

ande
July 18th, 2008, 07:42 PM
you're welcome
good luck

this might help you too
swim faster faster (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=4229)


Thanks for the link! I'm sure I will find it helpful.

ande
August 7th, 2008, 02:09 PM
anybody else wanna

EllenT
August 14th, 2008, 06:35 PM
I would also like to make a breakthrough in the next year. Although it may seem a very humble goal to most: I'd like to be able to qualify in one event for the USMS LCM Nationals next year in Indianapolis. I live in Chicago and know I'll be going anyway and will swim in some events I can't qualify in (allowed up to 3), but it would be GREAT to actually qualify in something.

I believe my best shot is the 50 breast. I just swam in a LCM meet a few weeks ago and clocked a 48.54. The qualifying time this year was 45.01; so I need to make up about 3.5 seconds--maybe 4 as the qualifying time will probably be lower next year. I really think I can do it--I just started swimming breaststroke in the past 8 months and have improved my SCY time by about 2.5 seconds. In practice we swim soooo much freestyle that I am sure if I concentrated more on breaststroke I'd see some results.

I have answered some of the questions asked in an earlier post and would like some advice on what kind of training (both dry and in the pool) I should be working on. How much yardage/meters should I accomplish per workout? How many days per week do I swim/train? How may times per day?

How many times a week are you training? In the pool 5-6 times a week, but can amp up in the fall/winter/spring when I can also practice at night. I am currently not doing any other kind of training or weights, etc.

How far do you go in each practice? 1800-3800 meters (LC and SC)/yards depending upon pool and how much time I have

How hard and fast do you go? Depends, but KNOW I could train harder and faster

Do you have any training partners who are as good or better than you? Yes, but not every day

Are you splitting your race correctly? Is there a split in a 50 LCM breast?

did you taper? No

did you shave? Yes

are you wearing a fast skin body suit in races? No

how good was the pool you swam in? Shallow--5 ft at deepest section

how psyched were you before and during your race? Nervous mostly

are you making any technique mistakes you could improve? Probably...haven't had any real coaching ever (just watch videos to pick up technique, but have little idea what I look like). Our team doesn't have a coach--we've been trying to find someone...no luck so far

how close are you to your ideal body weight? Could lose 20 pounds and am actively working on this

how strong are you? Pretty strong

Thanks for any help and/or advice!!!

Ellen

LindsayNB
August 15th, 2008, 12:14 PM
are you making any technique mistakes you could improve? Probably...haven't had any real coaching ever (just watch videos to pick up technique, but have little idea what I look like). Our team doesn't have a coach--we've been trying to find someone...no luck so far

The one thing that will help you the most is to get some coaching, if your team can't find a coach either swim (even part time) with a team that has a good coach or get some individual coaching. Breaststroke is highly technique based, a coach can evaluate your stroke and tell you what to work on and how. As a start, get someone to video your stroke and post it on youtube with a link here to get some advice.

ande
August 15th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Hi Ellen,

so you'd like to breakthrough
qualify in one event for the USMS LCM Nationals
50 LCM breast you've been 48.54
QT 45.01

You're training 5 - 6 times a week in the pool
that's plenty add weights 2 or 3 x per week
swimming: 1800 - 3800 meters per practice
make sure you're doing breastroke kicking, technique work, and speed swims

you KNOW you could train harder and faster
GUESS WHAT
THE 50 BREAST IS A SPRINT
TO GO FASTER YOU NEED
TECHNIQUE, STRENGTH, & SOME CONDITIONING
do more speed and strength work

Is there a split in a 50 LCM breast?
ACTUALLY YES

Tapering might help you

shaving helps

get a Tech suit
read Tip 201 Which Suit Suits you? More On Racing Suits (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732)
Tip 213 Even More On Racing Suits (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=137375&postcount=771)
basically get a speedo pro (http://tinyurl.com/264te8) or Blue Seventy Nero Comp (http://tinyurl.com/6dcwha)


how psyched were you before and during your race? Nervous mostly
nervous is good

are you making any technique mistakes you could improve? Probably...haven't had any real coaching ever (just watch videos to pick up technique, but have little idea what I look like). Our team doesn't have a coach--we've been trying to find someone...no luck so far
GET VIDEO TAPED AND PUT IT ON YOUTUBE

how close are you to your ideal body weight?
Could lose 20 pounds and am actively working on this
DO IT

how strong are you?
Pretty strong
GET STRONGER
STRONGER SWIMMERS GO FASTER

READ SWIM FASTER FASTER (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4229) AND APPLY IDEAS

USE CONCEPTS IN Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible! (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5818) TO
IMPROVE YOUR BREASTROKE KICKING SPEED (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=133395&postcount=245)

BASICALLY YOU NEED TO DO MORE FAST BREASTROKE IN PRACTICE WITH REST
RACE 1 50 BREASTROKE A WEEK IN PRACTICE

KEEP US POSTED ON YOUR PROGRESS

THIS WILL WORK
YOU WILL GET FASTER

GOOD LUCK ELLEN,

ANDE

Slid
August 15th, 2008, 03:50 PM
congrats on your goal and posting here

looks like you're well on your way

if you want to swim the channel
it's good to have some insulation

Lynne (who I train with sometimes) swam the channel and catalina
she did a lot of cold water swimming to prepare
here's her blog (http://itisnicetohaveaninterest.com/2.html)
you might find some useful info there



Your times, body shape and swimming distances are such that there is nothing much more you can do about completing the Channel Swim. The only obstacles are the strange specifics of the geography. The waves in the Channel are enormous. The more time you can spend in open water, generally and in the waves specifically, the better you can cope with whatever Mother Nature throws up on the day.

The Channel is tough!

EllenT
August 15th, 2008, 06:48 PM
Thanks for the tips Lindsay and Ande!

I am looking at getting some technique instruction and will also post a video of me doing a few 25s or a 50 of breaststroke. I realized today that I was getting my arms stuck under myself, so I'll work on that. I am also pretty certain that when I kick I am allowing my hips to splay too much.

I'm defnitely going to start with the weights and maybe pilates--my core is strong but you can always be stronger!

Thanks again--I'll post the video when I have it and will update you on my progress. I KNOW I can do this!

Ellen

ande
August 20th, 2008, 01:22 PM
you're welcome
good luck
hope you have excellent results

ande


Thanks for the tips Lindsay and Ande!

I am looking at getting some technique instruction and will also post a video of me doing a few 25s or a 50 of breaststroke. I realized today that I was getting my arms stuck under myself, so I'll work on that. I am also pretty certain that when I kick I am allowing my hips to splay too much.

I'm defnitely going to start with the weights and maybe pilates--my core is strong but you can always be stronger!

Thanks again--I'll post the video when I have it and will update you on my progress. I KNOW I can do this!

Ellen

shadowlink18
August 20th, 2008, 03:26 PM
I'm looking to make my college team either this year or next (probably next). My goal times are 20.99 (50 FR SCY) and 46.99 (100 FR SCY). Right now I'm hovering right around 23.1 and I'm not sure about my 100 because I haven't had a chance to race it since February. My main question is what kind of weightlifting should I do to best compliment my swimming? I'm 5'10 and weigh only 125 lbs.

I know 2 seconds in a 50 sounds like a lot, but I can tell from my swims that I'm capable of going that fast. Any other advice on how I should train, or specific aspects of training I should pay attention to is welcome.

Chris Stevenson
August 24th, 2008, 11:34 AM
I've decided I need better top-end speed and "easy speed" so I can get out faster on 100s. (I'm not really that interested in 50s for their own sake.)

Posters like Ande and Jazz have had great success with this, but I'm not going to follow their philosophy exactly mostly because I want to keep my endurance for 200s and the 500 free.

So my plan is going to center around resistance training in the water. I bought one of those adjustable swimming parachutes and will use it at the end of practice on days that I don't lift. I plan on doing 25s mostly, perhaps some broken 50s, with the chute to work on power/explosiveness and SDK speed.

At least, that's the initial plan -- I haven't even used the device yet. I'd be curious about others' experience with this equipment. I'll share my own thoughts as I use it.

JMiller
August 24th, 2008, 11:19 PM
Isn't Josh Davis doing a pretty good program based on that type of training? This is something I've been thinking about. You know it makes sense, as your body is pulled through the water that increases the flow resistance and trains you to adapt to the fluctuating pressure. Learning how to reduce resistance during top speed swimming is very important.



So my plan is going to center around resistance training in the water. I bought one of those adjustable swimming parachutes and will use it at the end of practice on days that I don't lift. I plan on doing 25s mostly, perhaps some broken 50s, with the chute to work on power/explosiveness and SDK speed.

At least, that's the initial plan -- I haven't even used the device yet. I'd be curious about others' experience with this equipment. I'll share my own thoughts as I use it.

Chris Stevenson
August 25th, 2008, 06:28 AM
Isn't Josh Davis doing a pretty good program based on that type of training? This is something I've been thinking about. You know it makes sense, as your body is pulled through the water that increases the flow resistance and trains you to adapt to the fluctuating pressure. Learning how to reduce resistance during top speed swimming is very important.

No, it is the other way: the chute slows you down quite a bit. It isn't like working with the stretch cords or fins to speed up. I think Josh Davis talked about his work with swimming against weights using a pulley system, or some such. We don't have anything like that at our pool, though, and the parachute is portable.

I tried it yesterday briefly after practice with the hole all the way closed. It reminds me a little of one coach I had who used to make me swim with jean cut-offs, complete with pockets. One advantage of the parachute over the cut-offs is that it doesn't feel like it affects my body position as much for some reason.

My reasoning with the parachute is to try to build more swimming-specific strength/power, sort of like overgearing or hill sprints in cycling. Weights are nice but sometimes I wonder if the strength gains transfer completely to swimming power. Paddles are another option but I have a problem getting a good turnover with them and they can cause joint stress if I overuse them.

JMiller
August 25th, 2008, 10:21 AM
Right, parachute? Never tried it, but I completely agree with the changing gears analogy. Full length pool tubing has a similar effect, you can swim with the cord or against it. Changing the water pressure on your body is a great way to have appropriate adaptation without thinking too much. It's like being a rock in the ocean.


No, it is the other way: the chute slows you down quite a bit. It isn't like working with the stretch cords or fins to speed up. I think Josh Davis talked about his work with swimming against weights using a pulley system, or some such. We don't have anything like that at our pool, though, and the parachute is portable.

I tried it yesterday briefly after practice with the hole all the way closed. It reminds me a little of one coach I had who used to make me swim with jean cut-offs, complete with pockets. One advantage of the parachute over the cut-offs is that it doesn't feel like it affects my body position as much for some reason.

My reasoning with the parachute is to try to build more swimming-specific strength/power, sort of like overgearing or hill sprints in cycling. Weights are nice but sometimes I wonder if the strength gains transfer completely to swimming power. Paddles are another option but I have a problem getting a good turnover with them and they can cause joint stress if I overuse them.

ande
August 25th, 2008, 10:55 AM
hey shadow,

to go 46.99 in the 100
you should at least split it
22.49 24.49

to be able to get out in 22.49
you need to be able to go at least 21.49 in the 50
20.99 is better

To be able to go 20.99 in the 50
you need to be able to go 9.99 to your feet from a go
though it's better to have a 0.60 difference or less in your 25's
which would be 10.19 10.79

anyway you look at it the key to sprint swimming is speed
The key to speed is technique, strength, and correct splitting

how old are you?

1) lift weights to get stronger 2, 3 or 4 times a week
you need to gain 5, 10 or 15 pounds of muscle

2) do speed sets with lots of rest
focus on 15, 25, 50, 75, & 100 speed
swim one practice a week that is like a meet

3) improve your kick flutter and SDK
you should be able to
kick a 50 scy fr under 30
SDK a 50 under 25 or 24

4) don't do aerobic work, don't get broken down from aerobic training

5) get a full body tech suit
wear it on fast swims at least once a week in practice
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732

6) read Swim Faster faster (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4229)

7) swim a few meets

8) find a coach
train with a team

the bottom line is:
Improve your 25 speed and you'll be faster



I'm looking to make my college team either this year or next (probably next). My goal times are 20.99 (50 FR SCY) and 46.99 (100 FR SCY). Right now I'm hovering right around 23.1 and I'm not sure about my 100 because I haven't had a chance to race it since February. My main question is what kind of weightlifting should I do to best compliment my swimming? I'm 5'10 and weigh only 125 lbs.

I know 2 seconds in a 50 sounds like a lot, but I can tell from my swims that I'm capable of going that fast. Any other advice on how I should train, or specific aspects of training I should pay attention to is welcome.

ande
August 25th, 2008, 11:02 AM
hey chris,

you'll find parachutes are a drag
good luck
look forward to reading your reports

ande


I've decided I need better top-end speed and "easy speed" so I can get out faster on 100s. (I'm not really that interested in 50s for their own sake.)

Posters like Ande and Jazz have had great success with this, but I'm not going to follow their philosophy exactly mostly because I want to keep my endurance for 200s and the 500 free.

So my plan is going to center around resistance training in the water. I bought one of those adjustable swimming parachutes and will use it at the end of practice on days that I don't lift. I plan on doing 25s mostly, perhaps some broken 50s, with the chute to work on power/explosiveness and SDK speed.

At least, that's the initial plan -- I haven't even used the device yet. I'd be curious about others' experience with this equipment. I'll share my own thoughts as I use it.

ande
August 25th, 2008, 11:26 AM
josh davis might have done a program like that in years past
his training before 2008 SCY masters nats was sporatic
He said he did clinics several times a month where he'd do 25 races against the kids, he'd give them a head start then try to catch them.
plus he'd do a little training at home when he could. He was very surprised with his times at masters nationals. He wore a LZR in his races.


the parachute increases drag, which allows the swimmer to apply more pressure on his pull and kick.
it doesn't do much for reducing resistance at fast speeds,
what would help this is:
1) swimming fast in a tech suit,
2) assisted swimming, swimming with a stretched stretch cord vs swimming against and
3) concentrating on ideal body position at top speed

the issue all of us face is
create more power and less resistance
some body types slice the water better than others
some swimmers are better than others at positioning their bodies to cut through the water in optimal ways


Isn't Josh Davis doing a pretty good program based on that type of training? This is something I've been thinking about. You know it makes sense, as your body is pulled through the water that increases the flow resistance and trains you to adapt to the fluctuating pressure. Learning how to reduce resistance during top speed swimming is very important.

shadowlink18
August 25th, 2008, 06:23 PM
Hey, thanks for the advice. I'm 20 years old. I've been reading through the swim faster faster tips and they're all very thoughtful and inspiring. I have yet to put any of them to work, but I'm going to start with my swim today.



hey shadow,

to go 46.99 in the 100
you should at least split it
22.49 24.49

to be able to get out in 22.49
you need to be able to go at least 21.49 in the 50
20.99 is better

To be able to go 20.99 in the 50
you need to be able to go 9.99 to your feet from a go
though it's better to have a 0.60 difference or less in your 25's
which would be 10.19 10.79

anyway you look at it the key to sprint swimming is speed
The key to speed is technique, strength, and correct splitting

how old are you?

1) lift weights to get stronger 2, 3 or 4 times a week
you need to gain 5, 10 or 15 pounds of muscle

2) do speed sets with lots of rest
focus on 15, 25, 50, 75, & 100 speed
swim one practice a week that is like a meet

3) improve your kick flutter and SDK
you should be able to
kick a 50 scy fr under 30
SDK a 50 under 25 or 24

4) don't do aerobic work, don't get broken down from aerobic training

5) get a full body tech suit
wear it on fast swims at least once a week in practice
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732

6) read Swim Faster faster (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4229)

7) swim a few meets

8) find a coach
train with a team

the bottom line is:
Improve your 25 speed and you'll be faster

ande
August 31st, 2008, 12:37 PM
Hey Shadow

you're welcome
good luck with your training

ande


Hey, thanks for the advice. I'm 20 years old. I've been reading through the swim faster faster tips and they're all very thoughtful and inspiring. I have yet to put any of them to work, but I'm going to start with my swim today.

ande
December 3rd, 2008, 07:59 AM
this is still a great question

what do I need to do to make a major breakthrough?

geochuck
December 3rd, 2008, 08:55 AM
A major breakthrough... I am presently working with Julio a Mexican handicaped swimmer. He attended tryouts for the Pan American 2011 games team rooster and was told there was no room for him. One of the team coaches asked him to swim a 100, he got up on the blocks and did a 100 m swim in 1 min 26 seconds. They changed their minds and put him on to workout with the team. I think this is a major breakthrough for him.

Knelson they liked his dive we worked so hard on to perfect.


this is still a great question

what do I need to do to make a major breakthrough?

bareblar02
December 10th, 2008, 10:43 AM
Ande, I'm hoping to achieve some significant drops in my 50 SCY because I'm considering calling it my secondary event next to the Breaststroke, what should I focus on during practice and during my regular pool visits outside of practice?

I'm going to try a lot of work on my turns and dolphin kick off of the wall but the problem I face there is that my dolphin kick comes mostly from the knees. I know it is supposed to be a full body wave but I just can't achieve it!

I also have a question, how fast should I stroke during a SCY 50, and how much of a difference does breathing make?

Looking forward to a response, thanks. :)

ande
December 10th, 2008, 10:54 AM
Hi Anthony,

The perfecting the single downward dolphin kick might reduce your time by 1 or 2 10ths per 25. (not much)

Perfecting turns is critical, why give up time to bad turn technique

if you want to drop way more time
Pefect your Breastroke technique
Get stronger
Get Faster doing Breastroke speed training and
get your equipment right

you asked
how fast should I stroke during a SCY 50?
Jeff commings or David Guthrie could give you a better answer
since they are world class masters breastrokers
I believe you want to do complete strokes as fast as possible
(don't shorten your stroke)

How much of a difference does breathing make?
not much, it's a 50 you don't need to breathe




Ande, I'm hoping to achieve some significant drops in my 50 SCY because I'm considering calling it my secondary event next to the Breaststroke, what should I focus on during practice and during my regular pool visits outside of practice?

I'm going to try a lot of work on my turns and dolphin kick off of the wall but the problem I face there is that my dolphin kick comes mostly from the knees. I know it is supposed to be a full body wave but I just can't achieve it!

I also have a question, how fast should I stroke during a SCY 50, and how much of a difference does breathing make?

Looking forward to a response, thanks. :)

bigsky0708
December 31st, 2008, 04:17 AM
I am 50 years old. I swam competitive earlier in life up to age 18. I now swim and compete in Masters. For the first time, I want to train and compete in the 400 IM. I would love some training advice specifically for this event. Any thoughts?

ande
December 31st, 2008, 12:13 PM
read swim faster faster
http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4229

train
+ all the strokes
+ work on your weakest stroke
+ for the 500 free to improve your conditioning
+ 4, 5 or 6 times a week
+ build up to 3,000, 4,000 or even 5,000 a practice
+ weights to get stronger
+ to correctly split the race
+ to get your body right, lose weight if you're over weight
+ with a coach and a team
+ race the 400 IM once a week in practice

get a tech suit
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=137375
Mens Jammers
http://tinyurl.com/2wree6
Mens LegSkins
http://tinyurl.com/25hzh4
Mens Full Body
http://tinyurl.com/yu2hwd

enter a local meet

ande


I am 50 years old. I swam competitive earlier in life up to age 18. I now swim and compete in Masters. For the first time, I want to train and compete in the 400 IM. I would love some training advice specifically for this event. Any thoughts?

pwb
January 2nd, 2009, 08:50 PM
I am 50 years old. I swam competitive earlier in life up to age 18. I now swim and compete in Masters. For the first time, I want to train and compete in the 400 IM. I would love some training advice specifically for this event. Any thoughts?

Craig,

The 400 IM is a beautiful event, IMHO the best one out there. Definitely follow Ande's advice. I train for this, as well as the 500, and the first two entries in my blog outline the broad strokes of my training plan: http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=5013&page=2

bigsky0708
January 4th, 2009, 12:19 PM
The 4IM advice is greatly appreciated. I look forward to working hard and improving my technique and times. Thanks again and Happy New Year from Montana.

ande
February 3rd, 2009, 04:05 PM
sure
how's it going now

ande


The 4IM advice is greatly appreciated. I look forward to working hard and improving my technique and times. Thanks again and Happy New Year from Montana.

Swims With Twins
February 11th, 2009, 12:55 AM
I use the parachute when I do my kicking. It's made a big difference for me, especially because I hurt my right shoulder doing too much pulling.

bigsky0708
February 17th, 2009, 10:40 AM
Ande

I've been swimming more 400IM drills and swimming at least one 400IM in each practice. I also began some cross training with core strength and spinning workouts.

I also have been working much more on my kicking. That has never been something I focused on. Practiced with a highly accomplished D1 swimmer over the Christmas break and he mentioned the value of strengthening my kick workouts especially for something like the 400IM. The Montana State SCY meet is a month away. My goal is to swim 4:45 or faster. Fly 1:07, back 1:15, breast 1:20, free 1:03. I'll keep you posted.

ande
March 31st, 2009, 03:37 PM
good luck
how did it go

ande


Ande

I've been swimming more 400IM drills and swimming at least one 400IM in each practice. I also began some cross training with core strength and spinning workouts.

I also have been working much more on my kicking. That has never been something I focused on. Practiced with a highly accomplished D1 swimmer over the Christmas break and he mentioned the value of strengthening my kick workouts especially for something like the 400IM. The Montana State SCY meet is a month away. My goal is to swim 4:45 or faster. Fly 1:07, back 1:15, breast 1:20, free 1:03. I'll keep you posted.

ande
August 25th, 2009, 12:58 AM
anyone working on having a breakthrough?

ande

bmswim
August 25th, 2009, 11:11 AM
I am. I have been training for approximately 2 months (weights and swimming). My goal for now is to get down to the 45-46 area in the 100 yard free. After training for only a month (not that seriously) I went a 51.5 in my 100. I am hoping to get it down to about a 49 low to a mid 48 before I taper. I feel much stronger than I ever did when I used to compete but don't have the endurance that I once did. I am sure that will come in time. Just rambling.

ande
September 3rd, 2009, 04:11 PM
good luck hope you do
how old are you?
how fast were you at your peak?


I am. I have been training for approximately 2 months (weights and swimming). My goal for now is to get down to the 45-46 area in the 100 yard free. After training for only a month (not that seriously) I went a 51.5 in my 100. I am hoping to get it down to about a 49 low to a mid 48 before I taper. I feel much stronger than I ever did when I used to compete but don't have the endurance that I once did. I am sure that will come in time. Just rambling.

bmswim
September 8th, 2009, 05:09 PM
I am 27. My fastest time in the 100 FR was a 47.09 SCY. I believe I was 18 when I did this time. At the time I weighed around 165 lbs. I also feel I was being over-trained. I now weigh 221 lbs (recently lost 35 lbs.) and would like to get down to 210 - 215 lbs.

My practices now consist of no more than 4000 yards.
MWF Are my harder days
T TH Are weights and between 1600 to 2800 yards in the pool
Saturday is active recovery

zollers
September 21st, 2009, 01:01 AM
I'm a 19 years old and a sophomore in College. I stopped swimming after my senior year of high school, but now I'm trying to get back into swimming and possibly tryout for my college swim team at the start of next year. At my peak I swam 100 breast in 1.07 200 breast in 2.30 100 fly in 1.00 and 200 fly in 2.20, all in SCY. I'm still in good physical shape because I was on my school crew team last year but my swimming skill has weakened. I was wondering if you had any pointers or suggestions on practices and workouts.

figgskzoo
November 18th, 2009, 11:56 PM
Ande, I want a breakthrough!

Currently, training is typically 1700-2000 SCY 5 days a week. Usually something like:

500 w.u.
10x 50 on 1:00 (80%-90% max H.R.)
2min rest
500 pull
2min rest
250 hard (80% max H.R.)
2min rest
200-500 cruise (60% max H.R.)
with a 1-3 mile run 1 to 2 days a week
and 3 days a week (mild) weight training and situps

I'm 44 and my PRs (in 1984 - at 18 years old) are:
22.8 - 50 free
48.9 - 100 free
1:58 - 200 free
5:49 - 500 free
Today's times are roughly:
27.5 - 50 free
1:08 - 100 (see, my stamina is suffering)
2:35 - 200
6:45 - 500

So yes, I'm no where near where I used to be. I think it was the 20+ years of beer and b0n9hits that did me in. But I'm clean and sober for 3 years and more determined than ever to get State-Level times back in my possession. Your thoughts on a plan to return to 'above mediocre'?

Heart Rate: Theoretically, my max H.R. should be about 175, but when hit 165 I feel pretty dang light-headed and max'd out. The highest I've ever seen it go is 168 and I was very toasty. I'd like to get your input on this.

I just joined USMS with the hope of meeting more like-minded people as my local YMCA doesn't really have much in the way of similar-aged, similar-paced, and similarly-driven 44 year-olds like me. It looks like I have a club nearby with such people as members. I'm looking forward to start working out with them.

I'm rambling.:blah: Would love to hear your thoughts on what I have written so far. Any and all input will be most gratefully received.

---figgs

Lump
November 19th, 2009, 09:37 AM
All I need for a breakthough is probably a team to swim with. I need that day in, day out competition you have with other folks during practice to push you that extra 10%.

I currently train myself alone. There is a team at one of the pools I can swim at but I don't care for the coach and its too $$$ for me at this time. I feel I'm doing pretty good on my own, but I KNOW I could be alot better/faster with a team.

hnatkin
November 19th, 2009, 10:39 AM
Jeff,
You should really try coming to Emory on Sun am at 8. I think you'd enjoy it and at least have some training partners one day/wk
-Heidi

racer
December 17th, 2009, 04:29 PM
good luck
how did it go

ande


Yeah Craig, how did it go?
Hope our paths will cross at a meet soon. There's one here next week.
Has been many, many years since we swam in the same pool together. Not quite so many years since we boated on the same lake. You wrote me a ticket for skiing without a spotter...
Hope all is well with your family. It's been a long time.

ande
May 26th, 2010, 01:27 PM
as one season ends SCY and a new one begins, LCM, it might be helpful to ask yourself:

"What do I need to do to have a major swimming breakthrough?"

What are my focus events?

What would a breakthough look like?

~ ~ ~

please share your answers.
I had an unintended breakthrough this season.
My 50 breastroke dropped from 28.6 last year to 27.4 this year

It also helps to ask,

"What do I need to do to get better?"

write down each aspect
create a plan to address it
then get to work.

hope this helps you swim faster faster and break on through to the other side.

Ande

Gdavis
May 26th, 2010, 08:48 PM
I also had a mini-breakthrough in breaststroke this year. In March 2009 I swam 50 in 31.33, which was a masters PR for me by a good margin. In the same meet this year I swam 30.81. At nationals my split in the relay was 29.4, which I equate to around 30 flat start. More importantly for me, I have made similar improvements in the BR split in the 200IM. The things that seem to have worked for me are: 1. Swimming Br in practice 2. Working on technique: higher hips, improving DPS/efficiency, some kick work with Br fins 3. A Br specific warm-up routine before Br and IM races. Now working up plan to consolidate and further improve. What lead to your breakthrough Ande?