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View Full Version : oscillating deformations of subcutaneous adipose tissue when swimming at higher speed



ande
May 10th, 2005, 12:19 PM
saw this in an article:

oscillating deformations of subcutaneous adipose tissue when swimming at higher speeds

why didn't he just write,

fat ripples when you swim fast

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/swimming/bodysuit/fiveauth.htm


Ande

Karen Duggan
May 10th, 2005, 02:00 PM
Hey Ande,

Very interesting. I skimmed through the entire article- that sucker's long!

I keep asking people what suit to wear for what event. I swim back, breast, and IM and the occasional mile.

I prefer the "old" style suit for breaststroke, and I've used long legs for back and IM. But I'm not sold on 'em. I think I prefer the short leg. And being female, according to this, I probably wouldn't benefit too much (buoyance) with the long leg...

I did notice that when I wore my long leg suit and took it off, there was A LOT of water in it. I thought, "Hmm, was I lugging all that through the water?" Couldn't be good.

I think I'm done with the long leg suit.

I think for Nationals I'll go with the "old" style suit and perhaps a short leg suit (no arms, never got on that bandwagon!)

I have always noticed the buoyancy factor and now I know what causes it- those little bubbles are attached to me and pushing me out of the water, well trying! Again, thanks for sharing the article.

geochuck
May 10th, 2005, 03:04 PM
This is not new we talked about this in the 50s, when we had under water films of dolphins. My coach explained it as, the body ripples through the water.

George

jswim
May 10th, 2005, 03:25 PM
lol.. I like your title best Ande!

I do remember someone discussing this very topic, and stating that for the most part these suits are for shaving off tenths and hundredths of seconds, not whole seconds.

so it seems as though MANY factors during your swim could account for adding or subtracting tenths of a second, including getting your reflexes honed so your start is faster, streamlining better, turning efficiently etc..

It seems as though the full body suit is just one small step to getting only slightly faster, and that there are MANY other ways to achieve that type of time gain.. (if it even accounts for any time gain as the article questioned..)

interesting...

ande
May 10th, 2005, 03:33 PM
it's not my title, it's just a phrase from the paper, that I thought was hilarious. We'd discussed it a few days earlier.

looks to me like the author spent a lot of time gathering facts and writing it up

ande



Originally posted by jswim
lol.. I like your title best Ande!

I do remember someone discussing this very topic, and stating that for the most part these suits are for shaving off tenths and hundredths of seconds, not whole seconds.

so it seems as though MANY factors during your swim could account for adding or subtracting tenths of a second, including getting your reflexes honed so your start is faster, streamlining better, turning efficiently etc..

It seems as though the full body suit is just one small step to getting only slightly faster, and that there are MANY other ways to achieve that type of time gain.. (if it even accounts for any time gain as the article questioned..)

interesting...

knelson
May 10th, 2005, 04:20 PM
I think it's worth pointing out that Rushall, one of the authors of that article, isn't exactly neutral on the subject of body suits. If you click on the link for "return to table of contents..." at the end of the article you are greeted by a page titled "SAVE OUR SPORT!
BODYSUITS: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO THE VERY NATURE OF COMPETITIVE SWIMMING"

jswim
May 10th, 2005, 04:22 PM
aha.. nice catch. ;)

ande
May 10th, 2005, 04:52 PM
the problem is pandoras box has opened

there are now world records done by swimmers wearing the suits

Would it be fair to remove these records from the books?

Would it be fair to ban the suits and allow swimmers who aren't permitted to wear the suits to compete against the times of those who did?

Ande


Originally posted by knelson
I think it's worth pointing out that Rushall, one of the authors of that article, isn't exactly neutral on the subject of body suits. If you click on the link for "return to table of contents..." at the end of the article you are greeted by a page titled "SAVE OUR SPORT!
BODYSUITS: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO THE VERY NATURE OF COMPETITIVE SWIMMING"

jswim
May 10th, 2005, 04:56 PM
good point...

There are also, I noticed, women from countries where showing skin is taboo, who are now able to compete because of these suits, I thought that was pretty cool!

Conniekat8
May 10th, 2005, 05:57 PM
I always wear my fastskin, Love it.
People ask me, does it *really* help.
I say, of course, it holds in all the fat ripples. I drop about 3-4 seconds per 100 wearing it.

Of course, I'm not fast by any stretch of the immagination.
Seem like it doesn't help top swimmers as much.

Bob McAdams
May 10th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by ande
the problem is pandoras box has opened

there are now world records done by swimmers wearing the suits

Would it be fair to remove these records from the books?

Would it be fair to ban the suits and allow swimmers who aren't permitted to wear the suits to compete against the times of those who did?

I suppose the same questions could be asked regarding various changes that have been made to the stroke rules over the years.

The bottom line is that there are world records that have been set by swimmers wearing the suits, and there are world records that have been set by swimmers who weren't wearing the suits, suggesting that the suits (contrary to the manufacturers' claims) haven't made much difference (though who knows whether that will continue as the suits continue to be redesigned).

I think it would have been better to have banned the suits in the beginning, but I see no problem with doing it now.


Bob

LindsayNB
May 10th, 2005, 10:57 PM
I am no fan of the new suits, which seem to me to do little more than make the sport a whole lot more expensive, but I wonder exactly what a ban would look like. It seems to me that careful testing for bouyancy should be possible and that the current testing methods may be flawed, but when you go beyond that what do you do, set a maximum area limitation?

I'm hoping the article turns out to be correct and that cheap tight suits or just shaving is as fast.

ande
May 10th, 2005, 11:59 PM
swimming is fairly affordable when compared with sports like
tennis, equestrian events, or golf

the suits are definitely better for swimmers who have loose skin

muscular 20 year olds might not need it things held in place,
but as we get older it helps more

ande



Originally posted by LindsayNB
I am no fan of the new suits, which seem to me to do little more than make the sport a whole lot more expensive, but I wonder exactly what a ban would look like. It seems to me that careful testing for bouyancy should be possible and that the current testing methods may be flawed, but when you go beyond that what do you do, set a maximum area limitation?

I'm hoping the article turns out to be correct and that cheap tight suits or just shaving is as fast.

knelson
May 11th, 2005, 04:09 PM
After reading some of the stuff on the site Ande originally linked, I'm now wondering whether I should wear a leg suit for my distance events at Nationals. Any opinions? I've never worn a "speed suit" before but just got a Speedo Legskin. Some of the articles mention that once the suits get waterlogged they could actually slow you down. Would I be better off with a standard suit for the 500 and 1650 frees?

gull
May 11th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Perhaps a waterlogged legskin explains why I didn't lower my times for the 500 and the 1000. Of course, sloppy turns and not enough distance work might also have a played a role.

SwiminONandON
May 11th, 2005, 05:26 PM
Nah, Gull it was all the suit ...

knelson
May 11th, 2005, 05:36 PM
I never thought of it that way: one more thing to blame for a sub-par performance! All my swims will be outstanding, though, so I won't need that excuse.

Karen Duggan
May 11th, 2005, 06:13 PM
I swam the mile at our Pacific Champs. in a leg suit. I was only off my best by 2 seconds, unshaved and untapered. But when I took it off is when I noticed that there was A LOT of water in it! I can't complain...

hrietz
May 11th, 2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by knelson
After reading some of the stuff on the site Ande originally linked, I'm now wondering whether I should wear a leg suit for my distance events at Nationals. Any opinions? I've never worn a "speed suit" before but just got a Speedo Legskin. Some of the articles mention that once the suits get waterlogged they could actually slow you down. Would I be better off with a standard suit for the 500 and 1650 frees?

I'm not sure about the mile but I have done my best time in the 500 (in Fort Lauderdale:))wearing a leg skin. Ande once said that Jill Sterkel said the female distance swimmers at Texas didn't wear the long suits because they got too hot. I would imagine since the mile is after the 1000 and will probably be around noon that perhaps you wouldn't want to wear it because of the heat factor. Personally I do believe the suits help keep me "higher" in the water and all of my best times have come wearing the long suit. I have never felt too hot nor heavy (i.e. waterlogged) in it but I don't swim the mile...I have seen men wear them in the 1500 in the Olympics and the NCAA 1650 so they can't be taking up that much water or the best in our sport wouldn't be wearing them when it matters most...

kristilynn
May 11th, 2005, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by knelson
After reading some of the stuff on the site Ande originally linked, I'm now wondering whether I should wear a leg suit for my distance events at Nationals. Any opinions? I've never worn a "speed suit" before but just got a Speedo Legskin. Some of the articles mention that once the suits get waterlogged they could actually slow you down. Would I be better off with a standard suit for the 500 and 1650 frees?


I had wondered the same thing about wearing my TYR Aquapel (long legs, no arms) for my distance events. Ande suggested that I simply try it out, so I did. I swam for a triathlon team (It was an odd distance, 750), but I absolutely loved it! I haven't competed very much since college, and I'm certainly not working out as much now as I used to, but my 500 split was a 5:26, only a hair off of my best 500 time from my college days. I also wore my Aquapel for my 500 in a very small intersquad meet last week and went a 5:24. I'm definitely sold on the suits and plan on wearing mine at Nationals.

That's just my experience. Hope it helps!

Kristi

knelson
May 11th, 2005, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by kristilynn
my 500 split was a 5:26, only a hair off of my best 500 time from my college days. I also wore my Aquapel for my 500 in a very small intersquad meet last week and went a 5:24.

That's impressive. I'm still trying to get within 30 seconds of my college time in the 500 free!

LindsayNB
May 12th, 2005, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by kristilynn
I also wore my Aquapel for my 500 in a very small intersquad meet last week and went a 5:24. I'm definitely sold on the suits and plan on wearing mine at Nationals.


Out of curiousity, do you have a recent comparison time when you were shaved and/or wearing a regular competition suit?

gull
May 12th, 2005, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by knelson
I'm still trying to get within 30 seconds of my college time in the 500 free!

When you figure out how to do that, let me know.

kristilynn
May 12th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
Out of curiousity, do you have a recent comparison time when you were shaved and/or wearing a regular competition suit?

Unfortunately I hadn't raced a 500 for a while so I don't know how accurate the comparison will be. I swam a 5:35 in a regular suit in Nov. 2003. I'm training about the same amount now as I was back then, and the 5:35 was an all-effort. I was thrilled with my 5:24.

SwiminONandON
May 12th, 2005, 12:10 PM
When in practice my coach says I want this 100 within 5 seconds of your personal best, I say, but I had on a fastskin and had a block start, it was all the suit.

When at our state meet, my teammate said wow, that was fast that suit really must help I said, it was the hard work, not the suit.


I blame the suit and take credit for myself ... ;)

craiglll@yahoo.com
May 12th, 2005, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Bob McAdams
I suppose the same questions could be asked regarding various changes that have been made to the stroke rules over the years.

The bottom line is that there are world records that have been set by swimmers wearing the suits, and there are world records that have been set by swimmers who weren't wearing the suits, suggesting that the suits (contrary to the manufacturers' claims) haven't made much difference (though who knows whether that will continue as the suits continue to be redesigned).

I think it would have been better to have banned the suits in the beginning, but I see no problem with doing it now.


Bob
Doesn't the rule about suits state that they can't enhance performance in any way. I tried to find the FINA rule but couldn't. Is there someone with the rule intheir head or could get it quickly?

I have a fastskin brief. I really liked wearing it when I race. Right now I'm working out with a Speedo Endurance. I wish that the legs were either longer or shorter. The leg openning keeps riding up my leg.

knelson
May 12th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
Doesn't the rule about suits state that they can't enhance performance in any way. I tried to find the FINA rule but couldn't. Is there someone with the rule intheir head or could get it quickly?

SW 10.7 No swimmer shall be permitted to use or wear any device that may aid his speed, buoyancy or endurance during a competition (such as webbed gloves, flippers, fins, etc.). Goggles may be worn.