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Ion Beza
May 15th, 2005, 10:44 PM
Today, I swam the 200 yards free in 2:09.11.

This beats my previous best of 2:09.54 from April 1994.

I challenged the 2:09.54 in the past 11 years, over 20 times, many times under what I learned the hard way to be the wrong preparation, and never came close.

My result will be posted officially in the USMS databse.

I won't be able to make the 2005 Short Course Nationals, but hopefully I will make the 2005 Long Course Nationals.

The reason that I bring this success here is that there are some lessons to learn from it:

1.) to pursue virtue and excellence by meeting the intrinsic requirements that come to having a worthwhile goal (in my case, the goal is to stay in my prime intellectually and physically, for longtime), that's intelligence and tenacious work;

I immigrated to U.S. and relocated within U.S. on job skills in science to live my lifestyle;

this lifestyle comprises now, over 39 weeks of the 2004-2005 season so far, of 1,093 kilometers of training (an average of 28.025 kilometers per week, or 30,828 yards per week, no matter the holidays, tapering or illness, that includes kicking, strokes, and technique quotas), the most mileage I slowly built my late starter physiology up to in life, mostly under a Masters club with primarly college and age group swimming expertise, which I searched for and choosed;

I also cross train consistently in weights and running;

2.) I scrutinize self-indulgence and greed (to an employer who was asking me to work overtime like his Japanese employees do, even though I was ahead in schedule in a project, and who thought that I am a slave to him giving me a work visa, I stated "You know, my life doesn't depend on you." and I walked away from a near six-figures salary because it was jeopardizing my swim training; I looked for and found another) and I scrutinize good intentions backed up by feelings without hard data.

2:09.11 and staying in my prime, that's a tribute to 1.) and 2.).

knelson
May 15th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
2:09.11 and staying in my prime, that's a tribute to 1.) and 2.).

Congrats, Ion. Next year knock it down to a 2:08 or lower!

Ion Beza
May 15th, 2005, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by knelson
Congrats, Ion. Next year knock it down to a 2:08 or lower!
Manually it was 2:08.77.

I could have done an electronic 2:08 today, at the 100 mark I felt strong and unchallenged, and I swam the second half too 'cute' instead of strong.

A lot of credit goes to the coaching that has that age group swimming expertise for lifetime bests.

The Masters club is filled with college alumnus, one who went today 4:41 in the 500 free, untapered and not shaved, he trains in 100s repeats leaving every 1:05, and he finishes threshold workouts with a 100 all out, from push off the wall in 49 seconds.

There is a lot of college and age group spirit and knowledge for improvement in this Masters club.

Plus, young Kathryn watches and likes me.

hooked-on-swimming
May 16th, 2005, 12:19 AM
Ion, that is really cool!Although I did not hit the wall in my times yet, it is harder and harder to improve and when I do, it gives me SUCH SATISFACTION!!!You must be feeling like the happiest man alive now, since you waited for 11 years to break your time again!!!Congrats!

Ion Beza
May 16th, 2005, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
Ion, that is really cool!Although I did not hit the wall in my times yet, it is harder and harder to improve and when I do, it gives me SUCH SATISFACTION!!!You must be feeling like the happiest man alive now, since you waited for 11 years to break your time again!!!Congrats!
Yes.

And we have things in common Dima, I followed silently your progress since you were doing last fall 1:20 in the 100 meters short course and were dismayed in this forum about stagnation, up until now with your 1:03 and wondering about 55 seconds.

Scansy
May 16th, 2005, 05:08 AM
Nice time Ion. Staying in the prime for a long time is difficult and will require a lot of dedication. I have no doubt you can do it though. You are certainly one of the most dedicated swimmers at this site.

gull
May 16th, 2005, 09:59 AM
That's excellent. I swam in college but since joining USMS two years ago have been unable to break 2:07. Of course I was never a sprinter and overcame a lack of talent with lots of yardage. Interestingly, in the 500 the gap between me and the fastest in my age group remains about the same as it was 25 years ago. In his book The Naturalist Prof. E.O.Wilson describes how he, as an adult, decided to train seriously in running. Despite his training, he found that the gap between him and the fastest runners in his age group remained the same as it had been when he was younger. He attributed this to genetics. Ion's (and Dima's) success as a late starter in the sport is likely due to a combination of genetics and a lot of training. Unfortunately, I can't change my genes.

Leonard Jansen
May 16th, 2005, 10:05 AM
I'd kill my entire family with a chainsaw if it would get me anywhere in that time range for a 200.

-LBJ

SwiminONandON
May 16th, 2005, 10:08 AM
I'd sell my family up the river to go under 2 minutes ...

ande
May 16th, 2005, 10:17 AM
Congratulations on your swim.
Enjoy the moment

Ande

ande
May 16th, 2005, 10:19 AM
"selling your family up the river" won't work

keather, you've just got to train really hard for really long,
perfect all your strokes,

Ande


Originally posted by SwiminONandON
I'd sell my family up the river to go under 2 minutes ...

gull
May 16th, 2005, 10:21 AM
In my first Masters meet two years ago, I was so confident I'd be under 2:00 that I "conservatively" entered a seed time of 1:53. The other guys in my heat had hit the showers by the time I finished. Sadly, I wasn't even in an outside lane. That had to be the biggest damn piano I'd ever seen.

SwiminONandON
May 16th, 2005, 10:26 AM
lol ... that's hysterical ... Ande, I actually was responding to Leonard's comment about going Texas Chainsaw Masacre on his family ... but thanks ... going under 2:00 is a goal of mine, but it ain't happening anytime soon ...

ande
May 16th, 2005, 10:33 AM
You've got to remember the agony factor in the 200 IM,
It sucks to poorly split a 200 IM

last summer I took out my 200 LCM IM at zones way too hard,
I kicked too much, I was probably under 28 don't know for sure because they weren't running splits at both ends,
but I was out in 1:03.0 and back 1:14.9
which 74.9 - 63 = 11.9 difference
this summer I hope to swim it much smarter,
take it real easy on the fly and the back
saving my legs for the breast and free.
I'd really like to be under 40 on the breast split.
we'll see

Ande


Originally posted by gull80
In my first Masters meet two years ago, I was so confident I'd be under 2:00 that I "conservatively" entered a seed time of 1:53. The other guys in my heat had hit the showers by the time I finished. Sadly, I wasn't even in an outside lane. That had to be the biggest damn piano I'd ever seen.

Tom Ellison
May 16th, 2005, 10:33 AM
Going under 2:00 was a goal I set when I started back swimming in 1990. I only did it once in a Zone Championship meet in Dallas in 1997. I went 1:59.67 at 47 years old....and was very happy to have swam under 2:00. What is wild is that placed me 3rd or 4th and the first two were high 40's low 50's.....Very fast company I must say....Heck, I could not go under 2:00 now even if they threw me out the Door of a Boeing 747 in cruise....

knelson
May 16th, 2005, 10:43 AM
The 200 free has always been a personal nemesis of mine. When I was younger I never really had the speed to put together a fast 200. Now I don't have the endurance to put together a good swim of much longer than the 200!

My personal goal for this week (Nationals) is to break 1:50. There, I said it. Now I've got to do it :)

jswim
May 16th, 2005, 11:07 AM
Congratulations Ion!...

truly inspirational!.. sounds like you've been working your A## off, you deserve it!!

J.

aquageek
May 16th, 2005, 11:09 AM
1:50 is smoking fast, for me anyway. Good luck with your pursuit!

SwiminONandON
May 16th, 2005, 11:23 AM
Ande, I'm talking 200 free, not IM ... not like it wont' take a lot of work, but it's a BIG difference!

knelson
May 16th, 2005, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
1:50 is smoking fast, for me anyway. Good luck with your pursuit!

Thanks. The key for me is taking it out fast enough. I have a tendency to nearly even split the race, and that's probably not the best strategy for a 200 free!

Fishgrrl
May 16th, 2005, 12:36 PM
I would sell my first born to get that close to a 200 time...if I had a first born....;)

One time, I put myself in a paper bag, a big brown one, just to see if I could sprint my way out of it, and I could't - I got stuck in the paper bag.

(to the tune of Gwen Stefani's Rich Girl...)

"If were a fast girl...na na na na na na na na na na na..."

But put me in a 1650 and it's a whole different story, baby!

Congrat, Ion!!!!

valhallan
May 16th, 2005, 12:51 PM
Excellent job Ion.

Faster Ion.

old dog
May 16th, 2005, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ion Beza
[B].

"A lot of credit goes to the coaching "

Way to go, you old dog.;)

Bob McAdams
May 16th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Congratulations, Ion!

ande
May 16th, 2005, 02:12 PM
even splitting is a smart way to go,
I've done the 200 both ways
even or close splitting feels much better.

ande


ande
Originally posted by knelson
Thanks. The key for me is taking it out fast enough. I have a tendency to nearly even split the race, and that's probably not the best strategy for a 200 free!

Jeff Commings
May 16th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Ion, it's great to hear that you dropped time after so many years.

When I got into Masters six years ago, I didn't think I would be anywhere close to getting anymore lifetime bests.

But two years ago I went under 1:00 for the first time in the 100 LC back (59.86). Last summer I went 59.21!

I've also swum best times in short course backstrokes as well. Of course, I never swam a shaved backstroke race in college, but I still thought my physical level (as well as my training level) wasn't going to get me close to 50-point in the 100 back.

Goes to show anything is possible.

Now, if I could go 1:02.4 again in the 100m breast ....

Ion Beza
May 16th, 2005, 07:59 PM
I read the replies, quickly and under pressure and I appreciate the congratulations.

But congratulations are always for winners.

And to me, the process is bigger than winning.

Where winning is bigger than the process is in the business world, where the bottom line for results overtakes life's values.
I never liked this.

Me, I congratulate winners and losers though, providing the process is honestly searching for right.

For years I stress in this forum my quest for a right process.
I remember my disappointment at my declining results when I first joined this forum in 2001.
And my partial conclusions from different experiences in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004.

My opening post stresses the quest for the right process during eleven years.

I tell my coach here that I let the nature decide about winning, because we are only working on the process with the little that we know about the nature.

bud
May 16th, 2005, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
I'd sell my family up the river to go under 2 minutes ...
Actually, being "sold down the river" is the more common phrase, because it was worse. Basically it was a death sentence. Slaves sold down the (Mississippi) river had a life expectancy of about 3-4 years due to the harsh conditions in the south Louisiana sugar cane fields.

old dog
May 16th, 2005, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
.

But congratulations are always for winners.

And to me, the process is bigger than winning.

Where winning is bigger than the process is in the business world, where the bottom line for results overtakes life's values.
I never liked this.

Me, I congratulate winners and losers though, providing the process is honestly searching for right.

For years I stress in this forum my quest for a right process.
I remember my disappointment at my declining results when I first joined this forum in 2001.
And my partial conclusions from different experiences in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004.

My opening post stresses the quest for the right process during eleven years.

I tell my coach here that I let the nature decide about winning, because we are only working on the process with the little that we know about the nature. [/B]

Ion,
Is your PB any more impressive than anyone elses PB?

If someone else did a PB in the 200 F in 4:00 or 1:40 would
it be any less of an a accomplishment?

Just curious....:confused:

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by old dog
Ion,
Is your PB any more impressive than anyone elses PB?
...

My PB is impressive because given condition A (in my case A is late starter and declining), then the process that I choose to address A does prove naysayers here (including you who were decrying my training regimen), wrong.

My process works.

aquageek
May 17th, 2005, 08:27 AM
A personal best is just that, a personal best. It is totally irrelevant what process was followed as long as you feel proud of your accomplishment, proud but not boastful. It is neither better nor worse than anyone else's PB. There are many paths to PBs and a PB by itself may mean nothing to a person who has accomplished so many other wonderful things along the way to that PB.

LindsayNB
May 17th, 2005, 09:18 AM
Personally I don't think it is very interesting to think in terms of how "impressive" a PB is or try to rank one PB as more or less impressive than another. I do find the question of process interesting because it is potentially relevant to my own training. Knowing what did and didn't work for Ion, and others, gives me a basis for designing my own training and judging what will be necessary to achieve a given goal. I would be interested to hear more about what did and didn't work for Ion.

gull
May 17th, 2005, 09:27 AM
In the past year my times for the 1000 and the 500 remained the same. Is that a failure of the (training) process, or a success in that aging tends to slow us down? Perhaps if I modify my training I can in fact lower my times next year. However, a personal best would require bettering my college times which I don't believe is possible (not that I was all that fast back then, but it's all relative).

aquageek
May 17th, 2005, 09:58 AM
gull:

Go ahead, rub it in, you are an early bloomer.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
Personally I don't think it is very interesting to think in terms of how "impressive" a PB is or try to rank one PB as more or less impressive than another. I do find the question of process interesting because it is potentially relevant to my own training. Knowing what did and didn't work for Ion, and others, gives me a basis for designing my own training and judging what will be necessary to achieve a given goal. I would be interested to hear more about what did and didn't work for Ion.
Exactly.

Also baron Pierre de Coubertin -the founder of the modern Olympics- stated that the process and the struggle are more important than the exact result.

Many Olympic swimmers who won gold are quoted as saying that the process beats the gold.

My past posts and my thread here give credit to the process that I was searching for and choose in a given situation.

gull
May 17th, 2005, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
Go ahead, rub it in, you are an early bloomer.

Actually, not exactly. I really didn't start training seriously until I was 17, so technically I missed the "window of opportunity" for maximum aerobic development.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by gull80
In the past year my times for the 1000 and the 500 remained the same. Is that a failure of the (training) process, or a success in that aging tends to slow us down? Perhaps if I modify my training I can in fact lower my times next year. However, a personal best would require bettering my college times which I don't believe is possible (not that I was all that fast back then, but it's all relative).
It depends on how hard you want a lifetime best.

If a lifetime best is one of your goals, you can you establish a process that is going to be time consuming.

I remember that you are from San Francisco, married now, and a medical doctor specialized in the heart.

Are your goal and process going to eat into this?

In my case, my goal to stay in mental and physical prime thru a process, that's part of a bigger goal that I have in life and that's part of my lifestyle.

gull
May 17th, 2005, 10:29 AM
Time is one factor--what I was able to achieve in college required a lot of work. Also, it's taken me two years just to build up to 3000/day because of shoulder "issues." Fortunately my shoulder now feels better than it has in many years.

Swimmer Bill
May 17th, 2005, 11:18 AM
I had over 50 lifetime bests at ages 37 and 38, including a one-minute drop in the 1650 from a personal best that was done more than ten years prior -- and I didn't start late. In the 1650 I dropped to 18:36.

Where does that put me?

Just curious...

gull
May 17th, 2005, 11:41 AM
I think the question is how do you achieve personal bests as an aging Masters swimmer. I'm not convinced it's all that common. Tom Wolf is swimming faster at 50 than he did in his 40s, which is very remarkable, but he is not recording personal bests.

aquageek
May 17th, 2005, 11:45 AM
Good question, gull, and a pleasant diversion form the egocentric discussion this thread is taking.

I think the concept of personal best changes as we age. I know I was faster in my 20s. It also took a lot less effort. Now, my concept of personal best is still to break or approach those times but I achieve a great deal of satisfaction in staying healthy as my peers become blobs.

When I look at my older teammates in their 50s and 60s, it seems their quality of life is a personal best that swimming plays a part of.

An obsession to break a time for 11 years is one way to motivate but a lifestyle improvement through exercise seems much more motivating.

SwiminONandON
May 17th, 2005, 11:51 AM
Why I love masters ... by nature I am an extremely competitive person. I love racing. When I get to race people win, lose, or draw if I set a PB I'm thrilled. I "use" other people in my heat to make me go faster. I'm new to swimming so I set lots of PB's this year, but all this reminds me of a quote by Thorpe in which he basically says I race myself and if I get out of the pool knowing I raced as well as I could then I won.

sibleyclan
May 17th, 2005, 12:00 PM
I think it's a matter of personal outlook.

I was turning into one of the blobs Aquageek referred to. I got back in the pool in February (after 30+ years) to help my 6 year old get ready for his first meet. (His older sisters have been swimming for over a year.) Figuring I was in the water anyway, I thought I might as well set some goals and work toward them once he got proficient enough to join the other juniors at practice. That's how I ran across Masters. I saw a meet in Charlotte in July and thought I'd try to get in good enough shape to enter a few events.

For now, I'm going to count every event I finish a personal best regardless of time since I'm 1) exercising and 2) (and I think more importantly) setting an example for my kids.

SwiminONandON
May 17th, 2005, 12:08 PM
I'd like to throw this in too ... swam the 50 fly individual for the first time at our state meet a few weeks ago. Had a less than steallar start, a bad turn and not a great finish. Even though I set a PB I was disappointed with my race. I swam the 50 fly as part of two different relays too, improved my time and my race each time. What mattered most to me was that I raced it better each time, regardless of what the clock said.

Matthias
May 17th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
but all this reminds me of a quote by Thorpe in which he basically says I race myself and if I get out of the pool knowing I raced as well as I could then I won.

that's funny. those two quotes by Ian Thorpe are basicly the foundation of my training philosophie.

The one you are reffering to is :
"For myself, losing is not coming second. It's getting out of the water knowing you could have done better. For myself, I have won every race I've been in"
This is basicly what made me really looking forward to meets and competition and helps me to perform at my best don't caring about how well others do or don't although I beeing still able to recognize good performes from other swimmers and congratulat them.

the second one is :
"I am my toughest competitor; I don't concern myself with what other people's performances are, because I can't change them, I have no control over them. I focus on myself and worry about my own performances. "
This one helps me to focus on myself in training and keeps me from thinking "oh no, I can't keep up with my teammates". It also helps me to look at my performance and judge it without relating it to someone else's performance.

knelson
May 17th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I know a pretty good part of why I can't, or at least haven't, approached my personal bests is I'm only training a fraction of the time I did then. Still, I think if I won the lottery, quit my job and spent all my time training it would still be very difficult to get down to those times. I might get close, but at 35 I have doubts I could get all the way back.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by gull80
I think the question is how do you achieve personal bests as an aging Masters swimmer. I'm not convinced it's all that common. Tom Wolf is swimming faster at 50 than he did in his 40s, which is very remarkable, but he is not recording personal bests.
I think this is the question indeed that my opening post adresses.

It adresses this by searching a process to do it.

The process has the points 1.) and 2.) in the opening post.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Swimmer Bill
I had over 50 lifetime bests at ages 37 and 38, including a one-minute drop in the 1650 from a personal best that was done more than ten years prior -- and I didn't start late. In the 1650 I dropped to 18:36.

Where does that put me?
...
It puts you in the company of Jeff Commings, Jim Clemmons in 2002 at the Short Course Nationals in Hawaii in 500 free in 4:59, Jim Thornton who dropped from 1:56 in the 200 free as an age grouper to 1:55 at age 49, and me too:

people who got lifetime bests after many years of training, while being adults, living a lifestyle.

The differences between you and me are that:

.) you didn't start swimming late, I did, so our times are of different caliber,

and

.) you had numerous lifetime bests at 37 while at 37 in 1996 I got one lifetime best.

But other than this, we chosed and followed respective processes.

In this experience, I stress the chosing of a process.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB

...
Knowing what did and didn't work for Ion, and others, gives me a basis for designing my own training and judging what will be necessary to achieve a given goal. I would be interested to hear more about what did and didn't work for Ion.
My points 1.) and 2.) in the opening post, and my next few posts after that, they summarize in a nutshell what works for me.

They are easy to read, but that's deceptive, they encompass painstakingly built experiences, many that I shared in this forum for years.

I can expand with details on them, once you pick from there points to debate.

Swimmer Bill
May 17th, 2005, 02:17 PM
I consider myself to be a late-bloomer -- particularly in distance swimming and IMs. I thought of myself as a sprinter in high school, and didn't swim in college.

Realizing that my previous competitive swimming experience was limited to mostly the 50 and 100 free, I decided to try everything when I joined Masters.

My first Hour Swim was when I was maybe 27 or 28. I think I did just over 4000 yards. I did it a year or two later and did 4585 yards. For about ten years, that was my best. I didn't train for it, and didn't participate in the event much after that.

I tried the Hour Swim again in 2003, and did 5075 yards -- an improvement of almost 500 yards.

In 2002, I dropped from a previous best of 5:59 in the short course meters 400 IM to 5:21. The following year, I dropped to 5:10.

Seeing this type of improvement at age 37 and 38 led me to conclude that I never really came close to reaching my potential as a youth age group and high school swimmer. Although I thought of myself as a sprinter, I may have done well in a wider range of events. I think you could call that a lack of experience -- lack of training experience, and lack of experience doing many of the different races in the sport of swimming.

It may not be how everyone defines the term "late bloomer" -- we saw the buds early on, and then winter came -- but in a sense, I am definitely a late-bloomer.

That's one of the things I love obout competing in Masters swimming. We can reinvent ourselves.

Karen Duggan
May 17th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Bill,

It's funny to me, actually kind of strange, that people (not you in particular) feel the need to "label" this or that achievement. Or to provide reasons why this or that did or didn't happen.

Naturally, you look at things and try to improve, but to give ones circumstances a general label is... I don't know the word... weird?
It's seems more natural to be like the Nike ad and "Just do it."

My husband and I have joked that we have our life best times and our life best times post having three kids- of course that's just it, we're joking, because we don't feel the need to qualify any of our swims. We know our circumstances and we do the best we can, plain and simple. Our FRIENDS (and I consider you one :) ) also know our circumstances. If it's relevant to something, I'll share, if not I just quietly go about my life :)

My .02 (that's two cents, not two hundredths 'ya swimmer!)

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Swimmer Bill
I consider myself to be a late-bloomer -- particularly in distance swimming and IMs. I thought of myself as a sprinter in high school, and didn't swim in college.

Realizing that my previous competitive swimming experience was limited to mostly the 50 and 100 free, I decided to try everything when I joined Masters.

My first Hour Swim was when I was maybe 27 or 28. I think I did just over 4000 yards. I did it a year or two later and did 4585 yards. For about ten years, that was my best. I didn't train for it, and didn't participate in the event much after that.

I tried the Hour Swim again in 2003, and did 5075 yards -- an improvement of almost 500 yards.

In 2002, I dropped from a previous best of 5:59 in the short course meters 400 IM to 5:21. The following year, I dropped to 5:10.

Seeing this type of improvement at age 37 and 38 led me to conclude that I never really came close to reaching my potential as a youth age group and high school swimmer. Although I thought of myself as a sprinter, I may have done well in a wider range of events. I think you could call that a lack of experience -- lack of training experience, and lack of experience doing many of the different races in the sport of swimming.

It may not be how everyone defines the term "late bloomer" -- we saw the buds early on, and then winter came -- but in a sense, I am definitely a late-bloomer.

That's one of the things I love obout competing in Masters swimming. We can reinvent ourselves.
You are a good swimmer.

As an anecdote, before the 1500 free at the 1998 Long Course Nationals in Fort Lauderdale, you -as a deck coach- asked me what time I was going to do, I said that I wanted to come close to a time of 20:45 which I did in the early 90s, you said that you never swam that time before, and now after your processes and lifestyle you are in the nineteen minutes Long Course range.

Nature works in mysterious ways...

(But character no, and I stick to me valuing people's character, including promises)

LindsayNB
May 17th, 2005, 03:34 PM
What I would find interesting would be for you to contrast the training that didn't work for you with the training that did and perhaps your experience of what made the most difference.

Our circumstances are quite a bit different in that you are a lot faster and you have been swimming much longer, so not everything that worked for you will necessarily be right for me right now, but it should be interesting none the less.

aquageek
May 17th, 2005, 04:45 PM
I can tell you this, swimming 28K yards per week with a family and a job would mean a quick trip to divorce court for me!

Swimmer Bill
May 17th, 2005, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
What I would find interesting would be for you to contrast the training that didn't work for you with the training that did and perhaps your experience of what made the most difference.

Our circumstances are quite a bit different in that you are a lot faster and you have been swimming much longer, so not everything that worked for you will necessarily be right for me right now, but it should be interesting none the less.

The main difference is that I would do anything to cut practice in high school. We didn't really have an individualized approach to swimming.

As an adult, I want to go every day when I'm really in the routine. I coach myself, and do what my body tells me to do.

I guess those are pretty major differences...

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
What I would find interesting would be for you to contrast the training that didn't work for you with the training that did and perhaps your experience of what made the most difference.
...

When I joined my first swimming club at 28 in 1986 in France, coming from public swim only, I looked promising, while getting early successes:

29 in the 50 metter free short course, 1:04 in the 100 meter free short course, 20:32 in the 1500 free short course.

But when progress got harder to do, then I developed a process that I refined over the years, including:

a.) go to the country that has the most Olympic medals and adult swimmers;

b.) in that country, go to the state that has the best climate and facilities;

c.) in that state, go to the club that has in Masters Swimming the spirit most closely matching age-group and college swimming, since age-group and college swimming have a mission to produce lifetime bests, while Masters Swimming doesn't;

d.) make sure the Masters workouts address five types of training (Aerobic, Threshold, VO2Max, Sprint Race, Explosive), diving from the blocks, technique in swimming and in flip turns, strokes, exactly like age-group and college program do;

e.) make sure the program is filled with competitive, faster swimmers;

f.) supplement the program with kicking with a board for a quota of 1/3 of your weekly mileage being spent on kicking (as a reference, with my power in legs I was able to kick repeats of 100 yards leaving every 1:30 last December, which is college caliber kicking), a quota spent on swimming in 12 strokes per 25 yards, a quota spent on no breath swimming, a quota spent on strokes, a quota spent on swimming while rotating the hips;

g.) supplement the program with weights and running;

h.) achieve a weekly quota of training mileage, no matter the holidays, storms, illness, tapering;

i.) achieve a yearly quota of races, so that racing is blase.

j.) involve the coaches in your goals;

k.) make sure that work doesn't tamper with swimming, i.e.: keeps your mind serene, not stressed, doesn't ask you for overtime and interfere with recovery, allows you to sleep plenty;

l.) once every so often, break the cycle by amusing yourself unpredictably, improvising fun to get out of the monotony;

m.) eat a diet rich in minerals and vitamins.

Ironically, when there is improvement from how I started in 1986 at 28, it's only in the magnitude of tenths of a second, the ballpark of what I do was pretty much set by the physiology that I got at the end of teenage years, the physiology of a non swimmer.

It's like taking a Volkswagen and hoping that with a V6 engine and fine tuning oil and tires, I can race V12 engines.

gull
May 17th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
I can tell you this, swimming 28K yards per week with a family and a job would mean a quick trip to divorce court for me!

I swim 20K/week, most of it at 6am weekdays. I get up at 5 so I have time to make a steaming hot (180 degrees) latte for my wife before I leave for the pool. As she likes to say, she loves me a latte!

gull
May 17th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
make sure that work doesn't tamper with swimming, i.e.: keeps your mind serene, not stressed, doesn't ask you for overtime and interfere with recovery, allows you to sleep plenty;


Work definitely can get in the way of swimming!

I guess you're familiar with Dick Jochums' quote regarding technique: You build a Volkswagen, you drive a Volkswagen. You build a Porsche, you drive a Porsche.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by gull80

...
I guess you're familiar with Dick Jochums' quote regarding technique: You build a Volkswagen, you drive a Volkswagen. You build a Porsche, you drive a Porsche.
I know the quote, yes.

And I saw you posting it in a thread about famous quotes, recenly, when I was still on strike from posting.

That quote applies to bodies in formative years.

Me, I pretty much have a Volkswagen since I started at 28.

I only fine tune it and change the tires, to race Porsche engines.

Karen Duggan
May 17th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Yes, as we get older it does become harder for VW's to race with Porsches. However, that is why Masters is in age groups (one of the reasons I believe).

I also know that there are people in their 50's plus that have Porsche bodies.

I tend to believe that the fastest swimmers (elite) have many positive training habits, good nutrition, etc., but they also have one more thing that very many lack, talent.

Whether you start swimming at 15 or 50, you are talented or you're not. You can only control the hardworking part, etc.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 05:36 PM
In my experience, this:

Originally posted by Karen Duggan

...
Whether you start swimming at...50, you are talented...
...

doesn't exist, someone starting at age 50 and making a 200 yards free in 1:38, or 1:49 never existed in the USMS database with results.

But there are people starting at 50 and making the 200 in 3:30.

SwiminONandON
May 17th, 2005, 05:38 PM
And to think I joined the team I did because the people were cool ...

SwiminONandON
May 17th, 2005, 05:39 PM
way to misquote her ...

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
way to misquote her ...
What did I miss?

She said that no matter the age of starting, talent is there.

I quoted that.

And said no, talent is related to the age of starting.

Here, is this better?

In my experience, this:

Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Yes, as we get older it does become harder for VW's to race with Porsches. However, that is why Masters is in age groups (one of the reasons I believe).

I also know that there are people in their 50's plus that have Porsche bodies.

I tend to believe that the fastest swimmers (elite) have many positive training habits, good nutrition, etc., but they also have one more thing that very many lack, talent.

Whether you start swimming at 15 or 50, you are talented or you're not. You can only control the hardworking part, etc.
doesn't exist, someone starting at age 50 and making a 200 yards free in 1:38, or 1:49 never existed in the USMS database with results.

But there are people starting at 50 and making the 200 in 3:30.

SwiminONandON
May 17th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan


Whether you start swimming at 15 or 50, you are talented or you're not. You can only control the hardworking part, etc. [/B]

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 05:54 PM
Controling the hard working part doesn't change "Whether you start at...50, you are talented...".

Starting at 50 and being talented, doesn't exist, no matter the controling of the hard work, period.

SwiminONandON
May 17th, 2005, 05:56 PM
Why can't someone be talented at 50?

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
Why can't someone be talented at 50?
Way to misquote me.

I said that starting at 50 and being talented, doesn't exist, no matter the controling of the hard work, period.

Starting at 50 allows someone for less talent, it limits that person with regards to talent, no matter the hard work that person puts in.

I said it here:

Originally posted by Ion Beza

...someone starting at age 50 and making a 200 yards free in 1:38, or 1:49 never existed in the USMS database with results.

But there are people starting at 50 and making the 200 in 3:30.

Punk
May 17th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Of course people at 50 can be talented. A talented hardworking 50 year old swimmer would be faster than all of the other 50 year olds. A talented lazy 50 year old and a non-talented hardworking 50 year old would be closley matched, and a lazy non-talented 50 year old would be slower than everyone. (just loose categories, lots of ranges really) But whether a 50 year old could be faster than someone of a different age? Well there are some very different possibilities...

But look, ok it's not likely that someone slightly past their prime like that could break an olympic record, but you never know, things like that tend to happen when people least expect it.

aquageek
May 17th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by gull80
I swim 20K/week, most of it at 6am weekdays. I get up at 5 so I have time to make a steaming hot (180 degrees) latte for my wife before I leave for the pool. As she likes to say, she loves me a latte!

That's what I do also, oddly enough, at the same time of day. I save my scalding coffee for afterwards, however.

Phil Arcuni
May 17th, 2005, 06:50 PM
Me too, Geek. Same yardage, same time, same coffee break.

However, when I *know* my coffee is scalding, I let it cool till it is hot. (I hate that skin peeling off the roof of my mouth.)

(How do you stand it, everyday?) ;)

Punk
May 17th, 2005, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Bill,

It's funny to me, actually kind of strange, that people (not you in particular) feel the need to "label" this or that achievement. Or to provide reasons why this or that did or didn't happen.

Naturally, you look at things and try to improve, but to give ones circumstances a general label is... I don't know the word... weird?
It's seems more natural to be like the Nike ad and "Just do it."

My husband and I have joked that we have our life best times and our life best times post having three kids- of course that's just it, we're joking, because we don't feel the need to qualify any of our swims. We know our circumstances and we do the best we can, plain and simple. Our FRIENDS (and I consider you one :) ) also know our circumstances. If it's relevant to something, I'll share, if not I just quietly go about my life :)

My .02 (that's two cents, not two hundredths 'ya swimmer!)










I have to agree. I'm not an "aging swimmer" or whatever you want to call it. I'm only 15, but I've been swimming for 5 years. That's 1/3 of a lifetime for me. All I know is swimming feels good and I like it. I like feeling new strength when I first get in the water. I like feeling my muscles uncoil on the morning after a hard workout. I just like being in the water, not neccesarilly swimming, but just sitting on the bottom and lookign up at the "sky" and stuff. Swimming is great, who cares about ranking or whatever?

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by ande
Congratulations on your swim.
Enjoy the moment

Ande
Thanks Ande.

I often read your tips.

Scansy
May 17th, 2005, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
I can tell you this, swimming 28K yards per week with a family and a job would mean a quick trip to divorce court for me!

Or bankruptcy court

Scansy
May 17th, 2005, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Punk
Of course people at 50 can be talented. A talented hardworking 50 year old swimmer would be faster than all of the other 50 year olds. A talented lazy 50 year old and a non-talented hardworking 50 year old would be closley matched, and a lazy non-talented 50 year old would be slower than everyone. (just loose categories, lots of ranges really) But whether a 50 year old could be faster than someone of a different age? Well there are some very different possibilities...

But look, ok it's not likely that someone slightly past their prime like that could break an olympic record, but you never know, things like that tend to happen when people least expect it.

Hey, a heavy, lazy, untalented 50 year old swimmer would be faster than me ... and I'm 35!:p

But I am faster than I was when I started swimming seriously two and a half years ago.

gull
May 17th, 2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I said that starting at 50 and being talented, doesn't exist, no matter the controling of the hard work, period.

You're confusing talent, which represents undeveloped potential, with actual achievement. Starting a sport late in life is a disadvantage regardless of the amount of talent an individual may possess. Hard work can achieve (and overcome) only so much.

LindsayNB
May 17th, 2005, 10:11 PM
My interpretation of Ion's comments was that he was referring to the widely accepted fact that there is a period in your teens during which your body is able to make significant physiological adaptations that it will not undergo with the same training anytime later in life. A person who was training during this period gains an advantage that a person who didn't start until later will never attain. While I don't think there is much scientific controversy over this I don't know about the magnitude of these adaptations relative to regular training adaptations. In any case I think Ion's argument is that the person who starts at 50 has an upper limit on performance that is lower than a 50 year old who trained as a teenager.

Most of us who started later in life will never train with the intensity that is normal in age group and college swimming and I suspect this is a greater limitation. I expect that I'll be getting personal bests for years to come because there is so much room for improvement in my technique that age effects will be outweighed for some time.

I have a friend that swam exactly once in the two months between two meets we swam at and swam a 50 free seven seconds faster than me despite the fact I was training quite hard. I think that was because he has hardwired great technique into his neurons from many years of intense training years ago, it clearly wasn't due to his training in those two months! If I ever swim like he swims when he is out of shape I'll be quite satisfied.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 11:34 PM
Well put Lindsay from New Brunswick.
From Frederickton maybe?

Your post deserves to be read slowly and absorbed here.

In the list that I made earlier to describe my process, the essence is not to re invent the wheel, the essence is to emulate on most points the age group swimmers who train for lifetime bests, even with our lesser potential, and also, even in Masters Swimming -a less competitive program-.

I add to that list, having coaches in Masters Swimming who -like the coaches in age group swimming- time trial their swimmers about five times per workout in average, and who later on -like in age group swimming- remember the swimmers' splits.

This age group swimming approach to swimming works for me.

Ion Beza
May 17th, 2005, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by gull80
You're confusing talent, which represents undeveloped potential, with actual achievement.
...

I understand your distinction.

You are saying that a 1:36 for 200 free is actual achievement.

And someone starting to swim at 50, had undeveloped potential.

They are being confused here, and I confront this.

Lindsay re phrases well what I say.

Karen Duggan
May 18th, 2005, 12:19 AM
Heather,

I gracefully bow out of this thread. Ion is on my ignore list so I don't really know all of what he is saying, nor do I care. I sense it's just more of the same old "stuff". He doesn't communicate clearly and I'm not going to bite, and let the fun of these boards in the last few months take on an unpleasant taste.

I'll see you on the fun threads :)

aquageek
May 18th, 2005, 05:11 AM
Another hijacked thread, starts with a decent idea, detriorates into blabber. I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Another hijacked thread, starts with a decent idea, detriorates into blabber. I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee.
Yeah, what are you doing here?

Attacking the thread with sentiments, but no swimming data from you.

I reported your post.

swim53
May 18th, 2005, 12:17 PM
here we go again (?!)

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Heather,

I gracefully bow out of this thread. Ion is on my ignore list so I don't really know all of what he is saying, nor do I care. I sense it's just more of the same old "stuff". He doesn't communicate clearly and I'm not going to bite, and let the fun of these boards in the last few months take on an unpleasant taste.

I'll see you on the fun threads :)
I reported your coming in here, to write this sentimental personal attack only, and a sabotage of the data in the thread.

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 12:39 PM
Ok this is the last time I am posting in this thread ... All I was trying to say was that I think someone that has never swum before can start at age 50 and be good. For example, if someone of Phelp's caliber never swam until he was 50 he'd probably still be able to blow away a lot of the competition if he worked hard. If you have talent, you have talent no matter what age you are or how hard you work. That's all I was getting at.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 12:41 PM
Can you prove it?

With official data.

aquageek
May 18th, 2005, 12:45 PM
At least the previous 51 weeks on this forum have been fun.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 12:47 PM
More sabotaging, geek?

That's all that you got in you:

sabotaging.

laineybug
May 18th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Life and swimming do not always boil down to hard data. Some people never grasp that and it makes them very irritating. Life must be very cold and lonely when it is all based on data. Yeah, I know Ion, go ahead and accuse me of posting sentiment. And go ahead and report my post.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by laineybug
Life and swimming do not always boil down to hard data.
...

We talked about this 14 months ago.

For non scientists is like you say.

For scientists is like I say.

For the neutral world (newspapers, T.V., USMS statistics, swimming competitions, etc.) is like I say.

Originally posted by laineybug

...
Some people never grasp that and it makes them very irritating. Life must be very cold and lonely when it is all based on data. Yeah, I know Ion, go ahead and accuse me of posting sentiment. And go ahead and report my post.
Keep hoping.

You didn't derail my thread or engaged in personal attacks.

You are discussing.

And that's why we are in this thread.

aquageek
May 18th, 2005, 01:20 PM
Bug:

I report you to the logic police! Your punishment is 10 X 50 on your favorite fast repeat. You can alter your time depending on your bloomer status - early, early mid, mid, mid late or late. And, if you don't do well, blame it on your bloomer status. If you do well, blame it on your bloomer status. Heck, blame your whole life on your bloomer status.

And, for your pervs out there, I'm not talking about ladies undergarments.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 01:25 PM
That's it geek with your unrelated stuff?

Are you done?

laineybug
May 18th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Ion, I have my degrees from major US universities and have been trained in the scientist/practioner model. I am a scientist too, but I get it.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 01:27 PM
I remember that, bug.

Soft science.

Psychology.

No mathematics.

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 01:28 PM
I was trying to ignore this thread but alas, I've been wooed back ...

Ion, there is no data to back up the exsistence of God or any other higher being, so are the billions and billions of people that believe in him/her/it wrong?

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON

...
Ion, there is no data to back up the exsistence of God or any other higher being, so are the billions and billions of people that believe in him/her/it wrong?
God is unrelated to this thread.

Go to www.infidels.org and find that yes, they are wrong.

Just submitting this parallel is a fallacy, it's appeal to popularity, it's not appeal to reason backed up by hard data.

We know how much garbage appeal to popularity does achieve on T.V..
Or how much garbage appeal to popularity did achieve when believing that the earth is flat.

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 01:48 PM
All I'm going to say is this....

"Things that never change....tend to remain the same!"

laineybug
May 18th, 2005, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I remember that, bug.

Soft science.

Psychology.

No mathematics.

LOL, tell that to the numerous folks who left my PhD program because the couldn't pass the math and statistics required. You need to stop looking down you nose at any field that isn't math.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by laineybug

...
You need to stop looking down you nose at any field that isn't math.
I will keep looking down at any field that isn't mathematics.

Swimming results that's 100% numbers.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
All I'm going to say is this....

"Things that never change....tend to remain the same!"
You mean that you will keep never posting one single swimming datum, Ellison?

gull
May 18th, 2005, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Swimming results that's 100% numbers.

Right. And unfortunately that's why we can't qualify these numbers based on variables like swimming background, aerobic development, etc. When I finish a race and see my time on the scoreboard, it's just a number. It may or may not accurately reflect the amount of time and effort I invested in my training. It's up to me to put that number in perspective.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:05 PM
But I do qualify numbers, Craig.

Read the list that I posted for Lindsay.

It has quotas of numbers that make up my training, my process.

laineybug
May 18th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I will keep looking down at any field that isn't mathematics.


I rest my case.

Tom, you are right, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Yes, Ion, I could if I wanted to research the literature and give you hard data, that comes from well controled experiments, to prove that.

old dog
May 18th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Manually it was 2:08.77.

I .

Plus, young Kathryn watches and likes me.

Can you convert the "Kathryn effect" into a number or data
we can use?

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Ion:
I will keep looking down at any field that isn't mathematics. Swimming results that's 100% numbers.

If you want to stay with the numbers being everything....especially in the area of swimming results....
Perhaps you need to get a few more crutches other then being a late bloomer.....Now, this is not an attack...It is just my thoughts put forth in a decent manner and based on your posts.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by laineybug

...
Tom, you are right, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
...

No need for Ellison here.

You could have said: "Ion, you are right, the best predicator of future behavior is past bevavior."

I am a picture of consistency in goals and means.

Originally posted by laineybug

...
Yes, Ion, I could if I wanted to research the literature and give you hard data, that comes from well controled experiments, to prove that.
In swimming?

That talented people who start swimming at 50, become fast?

Like in 1:49 per 200 free?

No way.

None.

gull
May 18th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
But I do qualify numbers, Craig.

Read the list that I posted for Lindsay.

It has quotas of numbers that make up my training, my process.

You misunderstood my post. I said "qualify" not "quantify." That's the trouble with numbers--they have no soul.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by old dog
Can you convert the "Kathryn effect" into a number or data
we can use?
Yes.

The Kathryn effect on my time is zero.

I am me, with my swimming numbers, with or without Kathryn.

Kathryn is a plus outside my swimming numbers.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by gull80

...
That's the trouble with numbers--they have no soul.
That's the trouble with soul:

no numbers.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Ion:

If you want to stay with the numbers being everything....especially in the area of swimming results....
Perhaps you need to get a few more crutches other then being a late bloomer.....Now, this is not an attack...It is just my thoughts put forth in a decent manner and based on your posts.
Like if you show to know anything.

Anything...

aquageek
May 18th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Tom - this is why you need to spend less time with Mr. Moose. You forget there is the time we all use to judge ourselves and then "late bloomer time" that Ion uses to handicap his results. I swim with people with real disabilities who never blame a slower than expected time on their handicap.

You should see the clocks for late bloomer time. They speed up when you go slow and slow down when you go fast. It's a built in excuse at every distance. I'm thinking about getting one, you should too.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:42 PM
More sabotage, geek?

It's not like you ever contributed, so it's not like you can contribute, but then, stay out.

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 02:42 PM
Ion.....if you want to continue with this and your posts....I am ok with that....What I do know.... is that I never used any of my physical limitations as a crutch....and I also know that even with past horrific injuries......I banged away to reach my goals...and the last time I looked....I swam 7 Top Ten Times....1 FINA Int'l Top Ten Time and I won Alcatraz in my age group.....I'd say I know how to work hard, swim smart, goal set....listen to my coaches....and try to be the very best I could REGARDLESS of what I have endured in my lifetime....or when I started back swimming.

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 02:45 PM
Good thought Geek....but....as I posted above.....Naaa....I don't need one....;)

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
...What I do know.... is that I never used any of my physical limitations as a crutch....and I also know that even with past horrific injuries...
Ooops.

Ellison is inconsistent.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
...I don't need one....;)
You know Ellison, you need to contribute or get out.

gull
May 18th, 2005, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Ion.....if you want to continue with this and your posts....I am ok with that....What I do know.... is that I never used any of my physical limitations as a crutch....and I also know that even with past horrific injuries......I banged away to reach my goals...and the last time I looked....I swam 7 Top Ten Times....1 FINA Int'l Top Ten Time and I won Alcatraz in my age group.....I'd say I know how to work hard, swim smart, goal set....listen to my coaches....and try to be the very best I could REGARDLESS of what I have endured in my lifetime....or when I started back swimming.

Exactly. Your numbers, Tom, speak for themselves. No need to qualify them. Placed in their proper perspective, though, they're even more impressive.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by gull80
...Placed in their proper perspective, though, they're even more impressive.
...elsewhere.

laineybug
May 18th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
No need for Ellison here.

You could have said: "Ion, you are right, the best predicator of future behavior is past bevavior."

I am a picture of consistency in goals and means.

In swimming?

That talented people who start swimming at 50, become fast?

Like in 1:49 per 200 free?

No way.

None.

LOL, Ion, you know as well as I do that I meant your behavior, which so many find unacceptable, will not change, you are, if nothing else consistent. Consistency becomes BORING after awhile.

You also misunderstood what I meant when I said I could back up that claim with hard data. It was in a paragraph with, "Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior" Surely, with your great grasp of English (and how many other languages?) you realized I was referring to finding research that looked at past behavior as a predictor of future behavior. Or am I wrong, that ideas related to one another are found in the same paragraph?

I'm outta here.

Lainey

aquageek
May 18th, 2005, 02:52 PM
Fortunately we only have to put up with this nonsense a few more days before a certain someone returns to his teenage forum. Then we can return to swimming discussion and away from obsessive compulsive swimming disorder.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by laineybug

...
Consistency becomes BORING after awhile.
...
Lainey
But it gets results.

Like a lifetime best.

And many other results.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Fortunately we only have to put up with this nonsense a few more days before a certain someone returns to his teenage forum. Then we can return to swimming discussion and away from obsessive compulsive swimming disorder.
When you return, make sure to put some data.

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Thank you Craig....
My point though was NOT to toot my horn...but to point out to Ion that I UNDERSTAND setting a plan in gear, following the plan, hard work, goal setting....determination and grit....and I also understand numbers....and NEVER EVER have I felt like my times needed adjustment because I have an art. right hip or Hep C....IT IS WHAT IT IS....I CANNOT CHANGE THAT....I can change many things...but not the past!

Lastly, I think I contribute....at least I hope I contribute....and I think my history of positive contribution and sick demented humor speaks for itself ....and they do not require any defense on my part.....

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Thank you Craig....
My point though was NOT to toot my horn...
No?

I thought you did.

Originally posted by Tom Ellison

...
Lastly, I think I contribute....at least I hope I contribute...
Not at the level of my process.

Only noise.

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 02:58 PM
I used my Top Ten results as a point of reference as you so often demand Ion...Now that I backed up my writing with FACTS....it does not serve you well to slam me for backing myself up with FACTS....Yes Ion...FACTS....not excusses!

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Ion.....humbly I say this...PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR NOT BEING ON YOUR LEVEL....I will try harder in the future to attain you level!

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
I used my Top Ten results as a point of reference as you so often demand Ion...
When?

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Ion.....humbly I say this...PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR NOT BEING ON YOUR LEVEL....I will try harder in the future to attain you level!
Oh, come on.

You don't try.

You preach your horn.

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 03:04 PM
Ion asked when he requested it...In your USMS statistices statement.....

"For the neutral world (newspapers, T.V., USMS statistics, swimming competitions, etc.) is like I say."

Ion, this is where we are 180 deg's different.....I don't preach my horn....I SWIM IT...and as you love to say...the facts speak for themselves....and without a crutch or excuse.....

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Ion asked when he requested it...In your USMS statistices statement.....

"For the neutral world (newspapers, T.V., USMS statistics, swimming competitions, etc.) is like I say."

Ion, this is where we are 180 deg's different.....I don't preach my horn....I SWIM IT...and as you love to say...the facts speak for themselves....and without a crutch or excuse.....
You misunderstand my quote.

It's about numbers in "...the neutral world (newspapers..." supporting that no one started at 50 to swim 200 in 1:49.

It's certainly not about you.

So you don't contribute to my process here, you misunderstand and start tooting your horn like a preacher.

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Ion, you don't need my help to contribute to your process....gosh, your as good as it gets at contributing to your own process! Good job Ion....JOB WELL DONE!

laineybug
May 18th, 2005, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
But it gets results.

Like a lifetime best.

And many other results.

Yeah, I'm being inconsistent.

Ion, I wasn't referring to your training. Face it, there is a whole level of interaction you just don't get, and never will. That's why you find a need to rely on the only thing in your life that has been reliable... hard data. I've said this to you before and I'll say it again, you need to read the research on multiple intelligence. You got some of it, but are seriously lacking in others.

gull
May 18th, 2005, 03:17 PM
I once read a quote attributed to C.S. Lewis--something to the effect that you should approach your work like a craftsman and not seek or require the approval of others. Good advice, but easier said than done.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Ion, you don't need my help to contribute to your process....gosh, your as good as it gets at contributing to your own process! Good job Ion....JOB WELL DONE!
That's why I say you don't try.

swimr4life
May 18th, 2005, 03:18 PM
"HE'S BAAAACCCKKK!...and so the peaceful, happy atmosphere of our forum is being challenged. Don't waste time trying to change the unchangeable. Life is way too precious and short!;)

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by laineybug

...
Ion, I wasn't referring to your training.
...

You won't believe how often consistency applies to many things.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by gull80
I once read a quote attributed to C.S. Lewis--something to the effect that you should approach your work like a craftsman and not seek or require the approval of others...
Never looked for approval from the likes of Ellison.

He just jumps in, and toots his horn.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by swimr4life
"HE'S BAAAACCCKKK!...and so the peaceful, happy atmosphere of our forum is being challenged. Don't waste time trying to change the unchangeable. Life is way too precious and short!;)
"...the peaceful, happy atmoshere of our forum...".

Read 'Candide ou l'optimisme', by Voltaire.

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Ion, many things in this life I will not try! Heck, my Father used to tell me, "Never whiz on a flat rock, because you'll get a wet pants leg." I always knew Dad had some serious wisdom in that saying....and for that....I can honestly say, I never tried that....!
The same holds true when I think of what my Father said about picking a fight with Superman.....never did that either.....

laineybug
May 18th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
You won't believe how often consistency applies to many things.

ROTF, Ion, I preach consistency every day to parents and teachers who are trying to shape a child's behavior. Don't try to tell me about the effects of consistency (and inconsistency which also serves to shape and change behavior, even physical behaviors like swimming) until you have as much training and experience in it as I have.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
...I can honestly say, I never tried that....!
...
You appeal to the readers, not to me.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by laineybug

...
Don't try to tell me about the effects of consistency (and inconsistency which also serves to shape and change behavior, even physical behaviors like swimming) until you have as much training and experience in it as I have.
I have a bunch of it.

Look in how I described my process to Lindsay.

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 03:28 PM
I picked a fight with superman once kick his sorry little butt all the way back to Smallville ...

Scansy
May 18th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Didn't I already read this thread? I think it was a year ago. I swear, this is the same discussion!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Tom Ellison
May 18th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Ion wrote: "You appeal to the readers, not to me."
That is ok Ion, you are not my type anyway....

Now Connie..or Heather....and Karen (if she was not married).....Mr. Moose is loose....and he is a nice Moose too....

dorothyrde
May 18th, 2005, 03:33 PM
I am just trying to figure out WHY it began.<stay away, far, far, away>

Karen Duggan
May 18th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Tom, I think loose moose are engaging! :p
Definitely appealing.

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 03:50 PM
Karen, what about an I heart Moose t-shirt, I think that shirt should make an appearance at World's next year ...

Karen Duggan
May 18th, 2005, 03:52 PM
YES! Fantastic idea.

I know lots of very creative, talented artists. Let's design one.

As Wheezy says on Dragon Tales, "LOOOOOOOOOOOVE IT" in a real high, squeaky voice.

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Karen, have you noticed that we seem to take over every thread? What would Walnut Creek do if I moved there?!

Hugh
May 18th, 2005, 03:53 PM
It looks like we may need to send some people to their rooms for a while.

We have had a number of posts reported and emails sent directly to the Web Administrators complaining about this thread. Please remember that we all have better things to do with our time than to baby sit a forum. If you don't want to see posts from a particular individual, please add them to your "ignore list" instead of insulting them. There are many people who feel that the Discussion Forum reflects on the image of USMS. Let's keep it civil.

Karen Duggan
May 18th, 2005, 03:54 PM
He started it :p

Hugh
May 18th, 2005, 03:56 PM
Karen,
Go to your room.

Karen Duggan
May 18th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Can I bring Aaron?

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 03:58 PM
HEY NOW!

Karen Duggan
May 18th, 2005, 03:59 PM
OK, you can come too!

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Ok, we're getting into a weird area here now ...

laineybug
May 18th, 2005, 04:00 PM
do I have to go to my room too because I'm laughing at Karen "getting in trouble?"

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 04:01 PM
How do I become an administrator?

Karen, we seriously hijack every thread ...

Conniekat8
May 18th, 2005, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
YES! Fantastic idea.

I know lots of very creative, talented artists. Let's design one.

As Wheezy says on Dragon Tales, "LOOOOOOOOOOOVE IT" in a real high, squeaky voice.

Cute:
http://tinyurl.com/aaffm

These are too funny:
http://www.emilysgifts.com/bigsky/barefoots/moose/index2.htm

Scansy
May 18th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
OK, you can come too!


Whooooooooaaaaaaaaa! :D

Is this a private party or can I get into trouble too! Just give me the word and I can be bad!:D

Conniekat8
May 18th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Okay, you guys, Shhhh!
Hugh is like the boss of the administrators...
It's really really BAD to get him all mad!!!

It's like... like... um.... when Mom says, you just wait till your father gets home!

Scansy
May 18th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Conniekat8
Okay, you guys, Shhhh!
Hugh is like the boss of the administrators...
It's really really BAD to get him all mad!!!

It's like... like... um.... when Mom says, you just wait till your father gets home!

Hey, I'm not bashing anyone, I just want to be invited too!

Conniekat8
May 18th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Scansy
Hey, I'm not bashing anyone, I just want to be invited too!

Is there a bash somewhere? I wanna go tooo!

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Awh, heck why not ... consider yourself on the VIP list.

Conniekat8
May 18th, 2005, 04:12 PM
Would it help if I dropped a NAME... umm, like, I know Mr. Moose? ;)

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Name dropping always helps ... Connie's in, too ...

aquageek
May 18th, 2005, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Scansy
Didn't I already read this thread? I think it was a year ago. I swear, this is the same discussion!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

AMEN to that!

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Scansy
Didn't I already read this thread? I think it was a year ago. I swear, this is the same discussion!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
No you didn't read this thread a year ago, you want to confuse the substance.

I reported your attitude.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
AMEN to that!
Amen to creating confusion, geek?

When one creates confusion, that's not flattering.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
I am just trying to figure out WHY it began.<stay away, far, far, away>
It began because I did a personal best, I say how, and people here try to derail the information.

SwiminONandON
May 18th, 2005, 05:12 PM
How about this ... you did a lifetime best, congrats ... now let's let this thread die.

Ion Beza
May 18th, 2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
How about this ... you did a lifetime best, congrats ... now let's let this thread die.
How about what I wrote, that this thread is not about congratulations, but about the process?

Now let's let this thread live.

Swimmer Bill
May 18th, 2005, 07:53 PM
I sure picked the wrong thread to subscribe to...spent the day on the airplane, and arrived in Ft. Lauderdale to see over 100 e-mail messages, primarily from this thread.

OY!

~SB (now unsubscribed)

LindsayNB
May 18th, 2005, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by gull80
You're confusing talent, which represents undeveloped potential, with actual achievement. Starting a sport late in life is a disadvantage regardless of the amount of talent an individual may possess. Hard work can achieve (and overcome) only so much.

It seems to me that this (the part in bold) is basically all Ion is trying to say with reference to "late blooming". I should note that the post that started the thread doesn't make any reference to late starts, he just says what it took for him to meet his goal and what his motivation was.

For people who started swim training when they were young the issue of just how large a disadvantage starting late is isn't very interesting. For people who did start later the topic is interesting because it explains some of the difference in performance they experience relative to others and can be used in setting attainable goals for the level of time and effort they are able/willing to invest. It's easy to say that you can achieve anything you want to if you set your mind to it and train hard, but it simply isn't true, we can all construct circumstances under which it just isn't possible to win an Olympic gold medal. It's interesting and useful to have some idea of just what it will take to achieve a goal. Clearly Ion is willing to pay a much higher cost to achieve his swimming goals than most of us here. If you want to swim in the Olympics it is useful to know just how much work the people who are getting there have had to put in. If it takes the level of effort Ion describes to beat lifetime bests set a decade earlier many of us will choose another goal.

It would be interesting if someone could point out one or more people with top ten times who didn't start swimming until in their thirties.

Another interesting tangent would be to determine just what level of training is sufficient to attain all the health benefits of swimming and at what point further effort is useful only as a way of maintaining interest and motivation.

Phil Arcuni
May 18th, 2005, 09:37 PM
It seems to me that this (the part in bold) is basically all Ion is trying to say with reference to "late blooming".

This is not "all" Ion is trying to say, if it were there would be no trouble. What Ion is also saying is that the combination of his talent and his hard work and his dedication make it extremely unlikely that *anyone* else in an equivalent "late-bloomer" situation could ever swim faster.

That is what Ion believes and what he has said several times. He will respond strongly to even hints that my summary is not true.

Look, friends. Whether you think it is true or not, or whether you think it reflects poorly on his personality, LET IT GO! Ion is a dedicated swimmer who can contribute much to this forum if we let the issue lay when Ion brings it up. There are some questions that should not be asked (you can find one of them if you go back through this thread.) Perhaps some of the newer posters need to know this, but the rest of you already should.

As an early bloomer (but a pretty small bloom at the time) I know that I will never do a lifetime best in my strongest events. Unlike Ion, I will not let swimming pick my job or my country, my family will always come first, and I get tired swimming 30,000 yards a week for very long. Also unlike Ion, I am competing against a 20 year old who swam more than 50,000 yards a week with near-personalized workouts and daily competition.

Ion's dedication is very impressive, if not something I want to copy.

dorothyrde
May 18th, 2005, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
How about what I wrote, that this thread is not about congratulations, but about the process?

Now let's let this thread live.

OK, this was what I was looking for. Trying to figure out why you posted if you did not want to be congratulated(which is what people usually want to do when someone achieves a good time).

You want to discuss your process that achieved this.

Fine, but please realize, many people cannot stop all else, or limit all else in their lives to dedicate to swimming.

So I won't congratulate you, because you don't want that and whatever you hope to achieve by posting, good luck, I hope you get it.

HEy I did think of a question. I saw you swim at Spring Nationals in 2004, and one thing I noticed was that you could cut time by improving your turns. In your process to get faster, did you focus on things like your turns, and what technique tips helped you the most?

Ion Beza
May 19th, 2005, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrde

...
You want to discuss your process that achieved this.
...
HEy I did think of a question. I saw you swim at Spring Nationals in 2004, and one thing I noticed was that you could cut time by improving your turns. In your process to get faster, did you focus on things like your turns, and what technique tips helped you the most?
This is my last post.

I am off to www.usswim.org because a friend convinces me that this thread is a this for that, and not about bettering oneself thru a process, which is what I intended it to be.

If the masses want fries and coke, then give them fries and coke.

The last three posts, including the one by Lindsay, are serious.
But Lindsay can debate me me in www.usswim.org

To answer your question Dorothy, I have a weakness in turns, I practiced good turns for 39 weeks, good turns are still not efficient for me as I look at the clock in repeats in wokouts, bad turns are more efficient for me in workouts and meets, my bad turns are not efficient when compared to the good turns of others, and in the 2005 Long Course Nationals I hope to do the good turns in a 1500 meters free because the walls come slower than in short course so I have more time to think.

In the 2004 Short Course nationals I swam the 200 free in 2:11.10 and I was happy, May 15 2005 I swam the 200 free in 2:09.11, a lifetime best.
I swam it with the same technique, it's only my fitness that improves gradually in this Masters program that I joined in November 2002.

As a side note, when I was not posting in the past year, I followed your posts Dorothy about your son's progression, from a 2:02 a year and a half ago in the 200 free, to 1:56 now that he grew to almost 6 feet, a tribute again to -what I think- is possible in bodies developing their swimming physiology at age 17.

Good bye.

Scansy
May 19th, 2005, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
No you didn't read this thread a year ago, you want to confuse the substance.

I reported your attitude.

OK Thanks. I hope you explained it as confused and bored.

Suit Chaser
May 19th, 2005, 06:47 AM
well...at least that would be better than cryptic, egotistical, confused and antagonistic...

dorothyrde
May 19th, 2005, 07:34 AM
Thanks for answering my question. I know turns are also difficult for me, and for the longest time my open turn was faster than my flip turn. I have been working on them alot in practice, and was able to race 1000 yards in a meet doing all flip turns. I hope you keep working on perfecting your turn, because I think that is one area you can reduce your time a great deal, especially in the distance. I did not mean to imply that your 200 was slow at that NAtionals, just that the turns were one area that I think can greatly improve your time. I know that is easier said than done, as I have worked 5 years on them and still cannot do them really well.

Unfortunately, my son has decided that other activities were more worth his time, and has not swum since February. He is still growing, and has made some noise about swimming again in the fall. I am laying low and letting it be his decision. Maybe someday he can swim Masters, and enjoy the sport again.

laineybug
May 19th, 2005, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I am off to www.usswim.org because a friend convinces me that this thread is a this for that, and not about bettering oneself thru a process, which is what I intended it to be.

If the masses want fries and coke, then give them fries and coke.

The last three posts, including the one by Lindsay, are serious.
But Lindsay can debate me me in www.usswim.org



The problem is you think you are the only one serving steak, lobster and wine. Anyone will gag on anything when it is shoved down the throat.

gull
May 19th, 2005, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Phil Arcuni
This is not "all" Ion is trying to say, if it were there would be no trouble. What Ion is also saying is that the combination of his talent and his hard work and his dedication make it extremely unlikely that *anyone* else in an equivalent "late-bloomer" situation could ever swim faster.

That is what Ion believes and what he has said several times. He will respond strongly to even hints that my summary is not true.

Look, friends. Whether you think it is true or not, or whether you think it reflects poorly on his personality, LET IT GO! Ion is a dedicated swimmer who can contribute much to this forum if we let the issue lay when Ion brings it up. There are some questions that should not be asked (you can find one of them if you go back through this thread.) Perhaps some of the newer posters need to know this, but the rest of you already should.

As an early bloomer (but a pretty small bloom at the time) I know that I will never do a lifetime best in my strongest events. Unlike Ion, I will not let swimming pick my job or my country, my family will always come first, and I get tired swimming 30,000 yards a week for very long. Also unlike Ion, I am competing against a 20 year old who swam more than 50,000 yards a week with near-personalized workouts and daily competition.

Ion's dedication is very impressive, if not something I want to copy.

Very well said, Phil.

Conniekat8
May 19th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
It would be interesting if someone could point out one or more people with top ten times who didn't start swimming until in their thirties.


Do relay top ten's count?

Tom Ellison
May 19th, 2005, 12:35 PM
The reason behind Ion’s posts is not the issue with me. I could care less if he after praise, congratulations, accolades or a forum to showcase his PLAN to achieve the goals he set. Am I impressed? Yes, actually I am impressed that he set a lofty goal then implemented a plan to achieve this goal and then worked the plan! Good job!

What I am not impressed with is his ongoing need to ALWAYS throw the Late Bloomer equation into the mix. I believe that I/we chose swimming as my/our sport. Swimming did not choose me/us. I came to swimming with the God given talent I was blessed to have or not have. I came to swimming with life’s experiences and limitations and positives and negatives and anything else that happened to me, was given to me at birth or developed throughout my life. I never asked for any quarter, nor was I given any quarter. I chose swimming on SWIMMINGS terms, not my terms. Not my set of standards, not my window to look out and view what I perceive are good times are or not so good times.

I also take issue with the fact the he belittles others when they challenge his thinking or accomplishments, yet he continues to hide behind this Late Bloomer nonsense. OK, you are a Late Bloomer, but you cannot change that, there are no categories to swim in USMS called “Late Bloomer”, and the times you swim are relative ONLY to your own thinking and the standard set forth in competition. No more and certainly no less!

I cringe when I read the crutch nonsense about Late Bloomer…..get over it, you chose to COME TO SWIMMING REGARDLESS OF WHEN YOU BEGAN…AND THAT WAS YOUR CHOISE! You are here....deal with it.......ON THE TERMS EVERYONE ELSE EXCEPTS!

Mark in MD
May 19th, 2005, 12:38 PM
Nice words. Very nice.

aquageek
May 19th, 2005, 01:03 PM
Tom is right, this late bloomer stuff is a pile of poo. When we greet new members or visitors to our team we don't ask when they started swimming, we ask their name and welcome them. They can choose whichever lane suits their ability.

I took up golf in my 20s, I suck. I played youth basketball from 5-18, I suck at that also. I started drinking coffee in college and now consider myself an expert in the 7 cup-a-day chug.

What Beza needs to do it take a break and go watch my 6 year old's swim team. There's a lot of laughter and good times, which I doubt you see in the lane with Beza. Did you know you can fit 18 small frys in a single lane, hilarious.

bda721
May 19th, 2005, 01:28 PM
Aquageek has a good point, just go out and have fun. The Geek says he sucks at golf and basketball, but at least he is out there having fun. I just recently competed in my first meet in a number of years and I am slower than I would like, but at least I am there having fun, just like the 80 something competitors that were there. I hope you guys go to nationals.

Rob Copeland
May 19th, 2005, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
It would be interesting if someone could point out one or more people with top ten times who didn't start swimming until in their thirties.

My mother, but she didn’t start swimming until her 50’s, and she’s ususlly a top 10 swimmer these days. Would this count?

Conniekat8
May 19th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I reported your attitude.

I have a feeling you're going to annoy the heck out of the administrators of this board with your frivolous reports, especially right now while they're short handed since many of them are actually competing at the Nationals that you didn't go to.

I thought you were all competetive and tough and 'swimming uber all else'... How come you didn't go to SCY Nat's?

Tom Ellison
May 19th, 2005, 02:21 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I reported your attitude.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your reporting anyones attitude is akin to John Mac Enrow giving anger mgmt classes to the side judges at the US Open......

Conniekat8
May 19th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
The reason behind Ion’s posts is not the issue .....
Snipped Tom's great post for brevity

I don't even mind the late bloomer thing so much... It's his People skills and contradictions that he falls into when he gets all riled up and defensive and starts belittling people.
It makes him look like he's very insecure, and hypersensitive, with a fake superior attitude to try and cover it up.
Sort of turns you off from wanting to interact with him, even if he has some valid points.
It's the lack of people skills that comes along with it that, for me makes it not really worth it. I'm sure it's like that for many others, and that inadvertantly just makes Ion feel more invalidated, and more defensive etc...
With him, you sort of have to give him special consideration that you wouldn't give most people, and ignore his abrasive remarks. Like dealing wioth someone who has a disability in human interactions.

To me it's all pretty ironic, considering how he toots his horn of physical, mental and intelectual superiority so hard.

I mean, when someone is really superior, or worth noticing, they get noticed. There's no need for them to say someting tanamount to: "Hey, let me point out to you, I'm better than..." When you really are, people notice.

I bet Ion would get more noticed if he wasn't trying so hard to get noticed.

Conniekat8
May 19th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland
My mother, but she didn’t start swimming until her 50’s. Would this count?

How about Rita Simonton?
She has world records too!
She didn't start swimming till she was around 40 or 50. I'd need to look up her bio to remember exactly.

Fishgrrl
May 19th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Great analogy, Tom! :p

SwiminONandON
May 19th, 2005, 02:40 PM
hahaha .. Tom, you rock!

gull
May 19th, 2005, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
It would be interesting if someone could point out one or more people with top ten times who didn't start swimming until in their thirties.

I've posted this before. My dad taught himself to swim (by watching Johnny Weissmuller movies, I believe) growing up in New York City in the 20s and 30s. He never had formal instruction or swam on a team. He joined USMS at age 80 and began competing for the first time. Now 82, he has three individual top ten times (for short course meters). If he'd swum the mile in Savannah he'd have picked up one for long course. Arguably the 80-84 age group is less competitive than, say, 45-59. On the other hand, you have to keep in mind that these guys haven't just managed to stay alive (most of them had to survive WWII) but physically are still able to train and compete. No small feat.

old dog
May 19th, 2005, 04:24 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ion Beza
[B]This is my last post.

.... this thread is a this for that, and not about bettering oneself thru a process, which is what I intended it to be....


I have a weakness in turns, I practiced good turns for 39 weeks, good turns are still not efficient for me as I look at the clock in repeats in wokouts, bad turns are more efficient for me in workouts and meets, my bad turns are not efficient when compared to the good turns of others, and in the 2005 Long Course Nationals I hope to do the good turns in a 1500 meters free because the walls come slower than in short course so I have more time to think.

In the 2004 Short Course nationals I swam the 200 free in 2:11.10 and I was happy, May 15 2005 I swam the 200 free in 2:09.11, a lifetime best.
I swam it with the same technique, it's only my fitness that improves gradually in this Masters program that I joined in November 2002.

This is Ion in a nut shell.
He knows his turns are weak, but insists on doing bad turns his own way. He did a tremendous amount of yardage but lacked
the will or skill to improve his technique. If he had spent time
perfecting his turns, he might easily have dropped another 3+ seconds.
IMHO, this is where his "process" is flawed. Of course, late
blooming has nothing much to do w/ good turns. ;0)

dorothyrde
May 19th, 2005, 04:55 PM
From what I saw of his turns, more than 3 seconds. That is why I was hoping he had worked on them. Perhaps one day his coach will get them fixed.

SwiminONandON
May 19th, 2005, 05:03 PM
Ah yes, but remember it's all about the process ... wasting time on turns won't get in the necessary yardage ...

dorothyrde
May 19th, 2005, 05:38 PM
Well he actually thinks like alot of coaches.....

Swimmer Bill
May 19th, 2005, 05:41 PM
Margery Meyer didn't start swimming until she was older...I think she was in her 60's. She is a USMS and world record holder.

aquageek
May 19th, 2005, 05:51 PM
I'm thoroughly enjoying watching this house of cards crumble.

SwiminONandON
May 19th, 2005, 05:56 PM
I heart Geek!

(please don't report my attitude)

Ion Beza
May 19th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
I'm thoroughly enjoying watching this house of cards crumble.
I don't doubt that you would enjoy watching it crumble, but it doesn't crumble:

when I say that my turns are less efficient than other people's, I mean people in my club like Joe Thomas.

I don't mean you.

Or Dorothy here.

Or Heather here.

Or old dog here.

How is the house of cards crumbling when I get a lifetime best?

My turns are a work in progress, and I didn't hit the perfect race.

You wish with your profile and no lifetime best for you now, that it was crumbling at your level.

geek's 'worthy' goal in life:

to enjoy that someone faster than him fails.

Tom Ellison
May 19th, 2005, 06:21 PM
Forgive me for speaking for Geek....but I thought he was refering to this POST, NOT your lifetime best swimming time.....

Ion Beza
May 19th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Ah, I see.

He was refering to top 10 who started in their 30s.

We talked about this.

It happens in the women's older age groups and in men's old age groups.

There is little competition there, everybody alive and swimming has a world record or near world record.

It doesn't happen in men 40-44 where I was recently and 45-49 where I am now.

Last year Paul Smith at 44 went 45 for 100 free, and Gary Hall Jr. at 29 went 44 for 100 free, then Gary won gold in the 50 meters free in the Olympics and swam again a 100 (a 100 meters now), good enough for #13 in the Olympic world.

And in the 40-44 and 45-45, plenty follow closely Paul Smith.

No, it doesn't happen to be a top ten in these age groups when starting in the 30s.

There is no house of cards that crumbles.

No.

gull
May 19th, 2005, 06:32 PM
I don't believe it's possible to make top ten in our age group as a late starter. However, that's not the only factor--there's also the matter of talent. As I posted previously, I was about 40 seconds behind the top swimmers in the 500 when I was in college, and as a Masters swimmer the gap is the same.

As the saying goes, the journey is the destination, so I'll keep trying to close the gap.

Ion Beza
May 19th, 2005, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by gull80
I don't believe it's possible to make top ten in our age group as a late starter. However, that's not the only factor--there's also the matter of talent.
...

USMS men 40-44 and 45-49 overflows with swimmers from the generation of the 1976 Montreal Olympics, when U.S. had the strongest base and showing in the world.

And from the generation of the 1980 non participation of U.S. in the Olympics.

The 1976 Montreal Olympics is considered the best U.S. men showing, the best generation of U.S. men swimmers.

Many U.S. men swimmers were very good, but didn't make the Olympics, and are now very good in Masters.

It should be a top 200, not a top 10, to include most of them.

Fritz (I mean Fritz Lehman), Jay Yarid, Clay Britt and Paul Smith are examples.

aquageek
May 19th, 2005, 06:51 PM
I know when I think of Hall, Jr I also think of Beza. After all, they are both shameless self promoters but only one has the hardware to back it up.

Next time I get a PB, I'll start a thread begging for congrats. I might even start my own web site: geeks-PB-in-clownsuit.com

The teenagers miss you on USSWIM.org, head back promptly.

Ion Beza
May 19th, 2005, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
I know when I think of Hall, Jr I also think of Beza.
...

Finally.

That was long to come.

Conniekat8
May 19th, 2005, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Forgive me for speaking for Geek....but I thought he was refering to this POST, NOT your lifetime best swimming time.....

First glance I thought that said: "Forgive me for spanking Geek..." ;)

Scansy
May 19th, 2005, 07:31 PM
Hey guys, I'm back. My attitude right now is tired. Deadline tomorrow morning.... lots of work to do. :(

Tomorrow evening, my attitude will likely be tipsy.... a few beers after a hell week. :D

This weekend it will be laid back. Lot's of yard work - flowers and veggies to plant. Should be relaxing. :)

Just wanted to check in with my attitude.

Oh, and no, I don't swim as fast as most of you. I do love it though. My process is pretty much haphazard. No coach. No consistent workout times. I decide what stroke to work on that day on my way into the Y. I wear myself out and feel good about it.

Fishgrrl
May 19th, 2005, 07:38 PM
Hi Paul...I like that you checked in with your attitude. Mine sucks right now. I am in the WORST mood ever!! :mad:

My attitude was way too tipsy last night; and I got stood up! Probably why my attitude is bad.

Today in the pool my attitude was mean, but in a good way. I did a 200 for time and it sucked, so of course I feel terrible.

I don't think I'm a late bloomer, whatever the hell that means and no worries, I don't swim as fast as most of these guys/gals either but I'm really happy when I have a good workout and I am competitive.

There - now my attitude is a little better. ;)

Ion Beza
May 19th, 2005, 07:50 PM
I briefly interrupt this program to announce that Kirk Nelson (knelson here) went a few moments ago at the 2005 Short Course Nationals a 18:05.33 in the 1,650 free, good for #4 in men 35-39.

aquageek
May 19th, 2005, 08:02 PM
I plan to be an early bloomer to a six pack tomorrow and post a top 10 consumption time.

Cards crumbling...

old dog
May 19th, 2005, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
From what I saw of his turns, more than 3 seconds. That is why I was hoping he had worked on them. Perhaps one day his coach will get them fixed.


Here is a sympathetic swimmer. Ion bashes her along w/ many other well meaning students of the sport. In his arrogance,
he takes what fellow swimmers offer as constructive criticism
as personal insult.

SwiminONandON
May 19th, 2005, 10:32 PM
Kari I've been in a rather pissy mood most of the week ... I think I'm overly tired ... anyway ... I come here though b/c usually it makes me smile. I decided today that IM sucks ... work sucks ... and all that. Oh well tomorrow is Friday and I have a wedding to go to on Saturday and I can drink for free wahoo!

dorothyrde
May 19th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Yes I caught that. And actually my turns are better than his were at 2004 Nationals. Yes, I am not as fast in the water(nor will I ever be), but who knows, if I had started as young as Ion, I might have been. He started 10-15 years earlier than me.:) Ion, I say that with a sense of humor, OK, humor, got it?

Ion used to(have not seen him lately), do a funny corkscrew like turn on all his turns, that made him hang out a long time on each wall.
This is not an uncommon thing, my 12 year old does it when she gets lazy. There is a man I swim beside sometimes who does it. He is a foot taller, somewhat my same speed, but I get him on every turn, because of the wasted time spinning from back to front instead of allow the body to push of on the side in stream line. I have improved mine by watching our Senior/National team underwater and how they turn and doing my best to imitate.

Ion, I hope they film you. You can learn alot from watching yourself. And since there is areas like turns to improve on, if willing to work on it, you will continue to get faster, and maybe break into that top 10.

And like Scansy, I am tired. I coached a girl's softball team(we won), sat in a 95 degree gym for a band concert(favorite song, Godzilla ate Las Vegas), and have come home to pack up all my computer equipment to run a 3 day age group meet this weekend.

So good luck everyone with this thread, I will pull an Ion, and not be back(maybe), chuckle, chuckle, chuckle(humor Ion, humor)

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by old dog
Here is a sympathetic swimmer. Ion bashes her along w/ many other well meaning students of the sport. In his arrogance,
he takes what fellow swimmers offer as constructive criticism
as personal insult.
Grasping at straws, dog.

Without your arrogance, prove to me that you have a constructive criticism because you are qualified to understand and do better turns than me.

As of now, you are unqualified.

And you offer unqualified advice.

Last year, your unqualified advice was to deem my training and process as not likely to produce a lifetime best.

My lifetime best this year, proves you wrong.

You only focus on negativity.

To display your unqualified advices.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
Yes I caught that. And actually my turns are better than his were at 2004 Nationals.
...

Come on.

You do a 1,000 yards in 30 minutes.
You wrote that.
That's 39 flip turns.

I do 2,400 yards in 30 minutes, more than twice your distance.
That's 95 flip turns.

So many more turns and faster swim that I do in 30 minutes, they mean that I am much more efficient than you in turns.

My turns, almost three times as many in 30 minutes, must be faster, longer and stronger than yours.

When I wrote that my turns are not good, that's not compared to yours or dog's.

You have no modesty in mediocrity.

Fast swimmers who do good turns do not get me in turns when I do my turns.

My turns are not good compared to Joe Thomas' and Rob Bellamy's turns in my club.

cinc3100
May 20th, 2005, 01:39 AM
Well, Dorothy you probably could beat Ion in Breaststroke. What's your 200 yard breaststroke time Ion?

aquageek
May 20th, 2005, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

I do 2,400 yards in 30 minutes, more than twice your distance.


Ion:

At this pace, what are you hoping to accomplish? You are grinding yardage and not looking for any stroke improvement. You set one PB and you think you are now the authority on coaching and improvement. My goodness, comrade, it took you 11 years to do this. Slow down, relax, practice technique, and think about what you are doing. Instead of trying to swim a gazillion yards, why don't you work on your corkscrew turns?

And, for the last time, stop pandering for admiration. It's really childlike.

dorothyrde
May 20th, 2005, 06:35 AM
Ion












my 30 minute 1000 yards was 5 years ago when I started at age 38. That was when I first was learning and gaining confidence and had never swum anything over 50 yards before. If you read my posts, you know I refer to this when people are struggling to swim any distance at first. I slowed way down to achieve the distance, and to especially achieve the mental thought to be able to achieve the distance.

Last March I swam 1000 yards in a race. I did it in under 16 minutes. So I would say I had a PB, and have you had that percentage of rate of improvement in 5 years?

Guess what. This year I could only get in the water 3 times a week 45 minutes at a time because I changed from part to full time, and still kept my full time Mom job(never give that up).

I did what I could each practice, concentrating alot on form, and really focused on turns. Because my goals are not soley based on times. My goals are to be able to finish races such as the 1000 free, and the 400 IM and the 100 fly. Things that 5 years ago I could not even dream of. My goal for the 1000 was to 1. finish 2. do all flip turns 3. get under 16 minutes. In that order. I also even split it, 7:56 and 8:00 500's, which I was actually very please with.

My goals are very different than yours, please honor that other people have different goals. I tried to do that with you, you want to be faster and faster.. work on your turns and other problems with your stroke. You can prove that as you approach 50, you can continue to train massave yardage, but I got news for you. At some point, your body will not be able to do that. It is a fact of life. We age. And the way you are going to improve after that is technique.


:) My breaststroke is OK, but my fly is better, and my IM not bad(except backstroke!) Thanks guys you made me laff again.

Got to get in to work way to early so I can make the Friday night set-up at the meet. Later gators.


Edited later for Ion. Be careful about cutting other peoples times down. I am well versed in what age group kids times are around the country. The record in Illinois for 10 and under girls for the 200 free is 2:03. That girl was on our age group team, and she was a little teeny tiny thing. So you compare your times to mine, I can compare your times to a 60 pound 10 year old girl! Since VO2 is really not developed until the 12-13 year old in girls(yes Ion, I actually have heard your theory from coaches, I am not just a dumb middle age woman, I have a little knowledge), those 10 year olds that are faster, have not developed it yet. She had, and still has massive talent and great technique.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
Ion:

At this pace, what are you hoping to accomplish?
...
My goodness, comrade, it took you 11 years to do this.
...

But it works.

As in opposed to it works not.

As for 11 years, it would be less if I was doing what I do now, and not stumble on the wrong Masters programs across U.S..

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
Ion
...
Last March I swam 1000 yards in a race. I did it in under 16 minutes. So I would say I had a PB, and have you had that percentage of rate of improvement in 5 years?
...
My goals are very different than yours, please honor that other people have different goals. I tried to do that with you, you want to be faster and faster.. work on your turns and other problems with your stroke. You can prove that as you approach 50, you can continue to train massave yardage, but I got news for you. At some point, your body will not be able to do that. It is a fact of life. We age. And the way you are going to improve after that is technique.
...
Edited later for Ion. Be careful about cutting other peoples times down. I am well versed in what age group kids times are around the country. The record in Illinois for 10 and under girls for the 200 free is 2:03. That girl was on our age group team, and she was a little teeny tiny thing. So you compare your times to mine, I can compare your times to a 60 pound 10 year old girl! Since VO2 is really not developed until the 12-13 year old in girls(yes Ion, I actually have heard your theory from coaches, I am not just a dumb middle age woman, I have a little knowledge), those 10 year olds that are faster, have not developed it yet. She had, and still has massive talent and great technique.
Then you speak from the height of a 15:xx in the 1,000 and different league, different goals.

Be careful about unqualified advice.

As for the 10 years old, it means that she has more hormones than an adult, swims on energy not on technique, and that she burns out.
There is someone in Florida doing 5:10 in the 500 free, at age 10.
She has more hormones than an adult, swims on energy from her hormones, not on technique, she overtrains and burns out.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison

...
What I am not impressed with is his ongoing need to ALWAYS throw the Late Bloomer equation into the mix.
...
...yet he continues to hide behind this Late Bloomer nonsense. OK, you are a Late Bloomer, but you cannot change that,
...

To Tom and his echo (Mark):

this is saying that you don't want to know the conditions under which an action is performed.

Like a truck driver doesn't want to know the conditions under which he drives on the road.

Nice education...

aquageek
May 20th, 2005, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
But it works.

As in opposed to it works not.

As for 11 years, it would be less if I was doing what I do now, and not stumble on the wrong Masters programs across U.S..

So, let me understand your point here. If you improve your time, we are supposed to pay homage to the great Ion. If, on the other hand, you grind out big yardage but don't improve, it's the fault of the Masters program. Seems your process is more about making excuses.

What is this bologna about ten year old hormones? I thought you respected little kids, after all you sing the praises of their discussion forum, USSWIM.org.

More crumbling

gull
May 20th, 2005, 08:59 AM
A personal best is impressive at any age. Your "process" seems to work. But look at it this way. In eleven years you've improved your 200 time by .43 seconds. Yes your results are impressive for someone joining the sport late. But .43 seconds can be lost (or gained) in a single turn or on the start. The fact that you've gained ground while the aging process is pulling in the other direction is not insignificant. I can relate to that. However, isn't it possible that you've already acquired the aerobic base and strength you need, and now you need to focus more on technique? There are seven turns in a 200. Shave off a second on each turn and you've qualified for nationals. Without swimming any more yardage. As for your stroke, I've never seen you swim, but as Dick Jochums said, build a Porsche. Changing your stroke may require that you miss some intervals at first, but so what? It took me about three months to change to a four beat kick, now I'm swimming faster in practice.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
So, let me understand your point here. If you improve your time, we are supposed to pay homage to the great Ion. If, on the other hand, you grind out big yardage but don't improve, it's the fault of the Masters program. Seems your process is more about making excuses.
...
More crumbling
No:

it works as in producing lifetime bests.

This is not just one instance of lifetime best, in this Masters program I got a lifetime best 50 free in 2003, a fourth lifetime best in 200 yards free in 2004, a fourth lifetime best in 200 meters free in 2004, a second lifetime best in the 100 yards free in 2003.

aquageek
May 20th, 2005, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
No:

it works as in producing lifetime bests.

This is not just one instance of lifetime best, in this Masters program I got a lifetime best 50 free in 2003, a fourth lifetime best in 200 yards free in 2004, a fourth lifetime best in 200 meters free in 2004, a second lifetime best in the 100 yards free in 2003.

Wow, so now we get to congratulate you more. You gon't give a dawg a treat every time he brings home a dug up sock.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Conniekat8
I don't even mind the late bloomer thing so much... It's his People skills and contradictions that he falls into when he gets all riled up and defensive and starts belittling people.
...

You speak like if you ever achieved charm and consistency.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by gull80
A personal best is impressive at any age. Your "process" seems to work. But look at it this way. In eleven years you've improved your 200 time by .43 seconds. Yes your results are impressive for someone joining the sport late. But .43 seconds can be lost (or gained) in a single turn or on the start. The fact that you've gained ground while the aging process is pulling in the other direction is not insignificant. I can relate to that. However, isn't it possible that you've already acquired the aerobic base and strength you need, and now you need to focus more on technique? There are seven turns in a 200. Shave off a second on each turn and you've qualified for nationals. Without swimming any more yardage. As for your stroke, I've never seen you swim, but as Dick Jochums said, build a Porsche. Changing your stroke may require that you miss some intervals at first, but so what? It took me about three months to change to a four beat kick, now I'm swimming faster in practice.
You don't get it, Craig.

11 years were mostly wasted in the wrong masters programs across U.S..

The ones that have the likes of Scansy here say that they are 35 years old and a lazy 50 year old is faster than them.

My process is not either aerobic or turns.

My process is all of them.

Read the list that I put up for Lindsay.

Carefully.

It's a work in progress to hit the perfect race.

It's just that old dog and company had and have unqualified advice.

Beware of unqualified advice.

Mary
May 20th, 2005, 09:18 AM
I am interested in the hormonal argument that Ion posed for the reason that the ten year old girl is faster than he is in the 200 free. As an endocrinologist, I am not aware of the facts behind this post. Could you please point me to the data on this from the literature? (This means peer-reviewed scientific publications on pre-teen hormonal levels equating to improved athletic performance)

gull
May 20th, 2005, 09:21 AM
Look, it's obvious that you're in great shape. And I'm not critiquing your process. I'm just proposing that you focus on technique. You don't have to drive a Volkswagen (and he wasn't referring to VO2max--he was referring to technique). It's possible that your times could drop significantly.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Mary
I am interested in the hormonal argument that Ion posed for the reason that the ten year old girl is faster than he is in the 200 free. As an endocrinologist, I am not aware of the facts behind this post. Could you please point me to the data on this from the literature? (This means peer-reviewed scientific publications on pre-teen hormonal levels equating to improved athletic performance)
Sure.

Hormones during pre teen training that allow for striatic tissue development while swimming.

One window of opportunity in life.

aquageek
May 20th, 2005, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Beware of unqualified advice.

Like, for instance, the crutch of early blooming.

Mary
May 20th, 2005, 09:39 AM
Re-read my post. What you posted is common knowledge. What I asked for was a scientific reference that equates the different hormonal levels in childhood to improved athletic performance. There are variations in multiple hormones between children and adults but this occurs in all children not just those that are good swimmers, runners, etc. I was interested in the published data to support your specific claim. Thanks

laineybug
May 20th, 2005, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
this is saying that you don't want to know the conditions under which an action is performed.


Okay you guys, I have to agree with Ion on this one. It is very important to know what conditions an action is performed under in controled scientific experiements (yes Ion, we do that in psychology... it isn't as soft as you think... and I must point out here too that your late bloomer thing is a 'soft variable', that would fit very well into a catageory of 'unquantifable things' psychology has been trying to quantify for many years) There are several problems with Ion's experiement. First, even though there appears to be a control group (swimmers who don't train as he does) the control group isn't controled enough. In true scientific research, everyone in the control group gets the same 'treatement.' The experimental groups get the same treatement but with a change (hopefully only in one variable so if significance is found, the significance can be attributed to the change in the variable). Second, an n of 1 in your experimental group? Come on Ion! Third, you haven't produced any true numbers that have come from statistically analysis that show what the 'control' group does isn't as effective as what you are doing.

Ion, I believe you are just the person, to do a study that could contribute a lot to the current knowledge about training... design an experiement, objectively define early bloomer, define, some sort of out come you wish to measure, define other variables, get participants to agree to several different training conditions, and start collecting data from Masters' programs all over the country. Then come talk to us when you have real hard, scientifically analized data.

Lainey

gull
May 20th, 2005, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Hormones during pre teen training that allow for striatic tissue development while swimming.

Actually, muscle development can be achieved at any age. Which is why weight lifting is now recommended for the older population (in addition to the favorable effects on osteoporosis).

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by gull80

...
I'm just proposing that you focus on technique.
...

You are still wrong, Craig.

The focus is on all the points I put out for Lindsay.

The points complement each other.

It's a process.

You are talking to me about technique, you don't know my technique except from reading luminaries like Dorothy or old dog (who never saw my technique), and you don't grasp that the whole program has points complementing each other.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by gull80
Actually, muscle development can be achieved at any age. Which is why weight lifting is now recommended for the older population (in addition to the favorable effects on osteoporosis).
Not striatic tissue.

Only pre teen training in swimming does it.

I got this from coach Mark Schubert.

gull
May 20th, 2005, 09:46 AM
No, I've never seen you swim--I said that. I do know that in the 70s the emphasis was on yardage with very little if any technique work (at least in the programs where I swam). I still have a tendency to associate yardage with success. I just think you might be able to improve a lot more than .43.

gull
May 20th, 2005, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Not striatic tissue.

Only pre teen training in swimming does it.

I got this from coach Mark Schubert.

Striatic tissue is skeletal muscle. Which can be developed at any age. With all due respect to Dr. Schubert.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Mary

...
There are variations in multiple hormones between children and adults but this occurs in all children not just those that are good swimmers, runners, etc.
...

No, Mark Schubert says that striatic tissue occurs only in pre-teens who are swimming.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by gull80
Striatic tissue is skeletal muscle. Which can be developed at any age. With all due respect to Dr. Schubert.
The shoulder striatic tissue occurs only in pre teens training in swimming.

gull
May 20th, 2005, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
No, Mark Schubert says that striatic tissue occurs only in pre-teens who are swimming.

Either you misunderstood him, or he's wrong. It happens.

dorothyrde
May 20th, 2005, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Then you speak from the height of a 15:xx in the 1,000 and different league, different goals.

Be careful about unqualified advice.

As for the 10 years old, it means that she has more hormones than an adult, swims on energy not on technique, and that she burns out.
There is someone in Florida doing 5:10 in the 500 free, at age 10.
She has more hormones than an adult, swims on energy from her hormones, not on technique, she overtrains and burns out.


<sigh> This girl was not training on hormones, was not at all physically developed, and is not burned out. She is 16, at the National level now, and will probably get a darn good scholarship to somewhere like Standford. She has spent a tremendous amount of time developing her technique along with the yards she trains.

I posted before I read the rest, so am editing. Truly this 10 year old and other's like her our very talented and that attributes to her success alot. My daughter has undergone the same program, but does not have the passion or the talent this girl has, so therefore, does not swim as fast. Talent has a whole bunch to do with young swimmers swimming that fast. Now you add to that talent, quality technique work, and you get the great times.

Ion, you are very dedicated, that is very obvious, and I believe you will continue to improve. I don't know if you are working alot or a little on technique. I am just saying, I hope you do, because it will greatly enhance your times to do so. In swimming, you can overcome things like a late start with hard work. You are showing that. Now continue with the technique work too.

I would not have even compared the 10 year to your times, but you were pretty unkind about my times. Whether someone swims a 1000 in 8 minutes or 16 a PB is a PB, and P stands for personal. Remember that and have a great day!

Mary
May 20th, 2005, 09:57 AM
Okay, since you have still not directly answered my question. I thought I would look up your authority. I just looked Mark Schubert up on pubmed (Yes, I really did this. You can do it too. It is public access). He does not have any publications on this subject. I know that pubmed is not an exhaustive indexing system, but I don't think I would find it if I did a more extensive search. I really should get back to my work:)

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by gull80
Either you misunderstood him, or he's wrong. It happens.
I trust Schubert on this.

Ion Beza
May 20th, 2005, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrde

...
She has spent a tremendous amount of time developing her technique along with the yards she trains.
Now you understand my process of training too.

I listed these points in the list for Lindsay, two days ago.

And many more.

In detail.

Because talk is cheap, prove to me that you read that list.

Doing the list is more expensive than talking and ignoring the list.

For example, from that list, me doing a quota of swimming by taking 12 strokes per 25, that's expensive.

Get back after you read, learn and implement some of my list in your own swimming, for your own performance.