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geochuck
May 22nd, 2005, 08:16 AM
I hate to bring up stroke count again.

What is your Timed Swim Stroke Count for front crawl.

SCM 50 or SCY 50 Push off start (no swimming under water for half the pool)

Commonly called golfing or swolf, I call it TSSC score.

My score at the moment 62 for 50 SCM.

Guvnah
May 23rd, 2005, 06:19 PM
George -- Can you elaborate? Maybe I'm counting something else, but I'll take a (pretty consistent) average of 14 strokes per length in a SCY pool. So that would put me at 28. But the faster I go, the more strokes I'll end up taking. 14 is what I do at my basic aerobic (do-it-for-a-mile) pace. On an average day I'll swim that at a little under 45 seconds per 50. On my best day I can sustain that count at a 40 second pace (maybe 41) but I can't sustain that for more than 400-500 yards or so. Anything faster than that, and my stroke count starts to rise. So I want to say my count for 50 is 28.

What am I missing?

knelson
May 23rd, 2005, 06:23 PM
About 54-55 for SCY.

geochuck
May 23rd, 2005, 07:12 PM
Your score 28 strokes for 2 lengths and 40 seconds for the 50y equals a score of 68 good score.

My score 26 strokes for 2 lengths and 36 seconds for 50m equals a score of 62. I do these 50s on two minutes, about 80 sec rest.

If I go faster than 36 for the fifty meters my stroke count may go up. But not necessarily making the golfing score go up because the speed is faster. It is strokes and time added together.

If I slow down I can do 10 strokes per length and maybe 8 or 9 then the time goes up. Score could still be the same maybe not.

thisgirl13
May 23rd, 2005, 07:38 PM
Guvnah,

My coach refers to this little game as "Golfing". He makes us do this game to death. Some days I'm okay with it, and some days I don't have the concentration to remember all the stupid numbers, because we do them as a set - usually 10 x 50's on :50.

Here's how it works: Count your strokes for the entire 50, then add your time to it. Let's say you swim 14 strokes up, 14 back, and you swim it in a time of :35 seconds. Add 28 + 35, and your "score" is 63.

The goal is to get as low a number as you can - what's interesting about this game, is to find out that most people achieve a lower score by increasing their DPS and going a little slower, rather than swimming faster.

Does that help?

George, my last score was a 50, I believe.

geochuck
May 23rd, 2005, 08:11 PM
thisgirl13

Great explanation. I would die on 10 x on 50 seconds, may be not?

I only do this when I am swmming at a lap swim, not as a workout, 10 times takes 20 minutes. All under control, swimming quality.

thisgirl13
May 23rd, 2005, 08:44 PM
George,

I think you would do just fine with 10x50's on :50.

I am recommending your idea of when to use this game to my coach. He gets a little bit over-zealous, I'm afraid, and as a result, the golf-stroke game is more over-worked than we are!

knelson
May 24th, 2005, 12:20 AM
We do it quite a bit as a short warmup set, but I have to say I think it's a little flawed. The idea is to get the lowest combined score, but really the only thing that matters in swimming is the time. If someone can swim a 19 second 50 free, but it takes him 50 strokes, why is that worse than swimming a 19 second 50 free in 25 strokes?

auto208562
May 24th, 2005, 12:41 AM
I'm not a pool swimmer, but I swim more for triathlons, and it would matter as the length of the swim increases, as it will be more efficient and energy saving. Think of a 2.4 mile swim (ironman) doing 50 strokes per 50m as opposed to 25 strokes per 50m. The times may be the same, but I guarantee the guy who swam the 50 strokes per 50m would be way more tired for the bike and run disciplines that follow.

I would think in shorter races it wouldn't matter.


Originally posted by knelson
We do it quite a bit as a short warmup set, but I have to say I think it's a little flawed. The idea is to get the lowest combined score, but really the only thing that matters in swimming is the time. If someone can swim a 19 second 50 free, but it takes him 50 strokes, why is that worse than swimming a 19 second 50 free in 25 strokes?

geochuck
May 24th, 2005, 12:50 AM
When I swam the long distance races, I turned over at race pace 60 - 62 strokes a min the other guys did anywhere from70 - 75 per minute. We were all tired after the race. A swimmer we called Windmill Willie did 100 strokes a minute and Gambi an Italian also did 100 a min.

Knelson... It is flawed however the secret is to swim fast with a slow turnover. So you must become more efficient in swimming and get the most out of your efforts. When I raced the 100 every one said if I tried harder I would be faster. I was turning over slower than any one else yet I was putting out the best I could and did beat a lot of guys who turned over faster. In the 1954, 55 and 56 I was rated in the top five sprinters in the world. I had to be efficient as I was only training 800 yards a day.

The secret is to swim fast, with a slow turnover.

knelson
May 24th, 2005, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by geochuck
The secret is to swim fast, with a slow turnover.

Tell that to Janet Evans! In general I think you're right, and that's the idea behind this drill, but like I said before the only thing that truly matters is how fast you complete the race. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

geochuck
May 24th, 2005, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by knelson
Tell that to Janet Evans! In general I think you're right, and that's the idea behind this drill, but like I said before the only thing that truly matters is how fast you complete the race. Different strokes for different folks and all that. If you don't swim fast when you are counting strokes there is no sense doing it. Now when I do 36 seconds for a 50m swim I am swimming almost as fast as I can remember take pity on this fat old fellow. I used to have a TSSC of 49, 24 strokes 25 sec 50m sc.

LindsayNB
May 24th, 2005, 09:31 AM
I think it's important to remember the real goal of these drills is to learn to swim more efficiently at higher speed NOT to get a lower score. The score is just there as a way to make sure that you are not sacrificing speed in order to lower your stroke count. The basic idea is to play around with your stroke to find ways to make it more efficient without making it slower. As Kirk says, slower with lower stroke count is still slower, the hope is that by playing with your stroke you will learn how to swim faster.

knelson
May 24th, 2005, 10:52 AM
Well said, Lindsay. I think you're right on the money. Maybe this is a better way to do this set: start out with a baseline 80% effort 50 and count your strokes and remember your time. Now try to hit this same time but reduce the number of strokes taken on the subsequent 50s. This will give a truer indication of what changes actually produce more efficient swimming without sacrificing speed.

geochuck
May 24th, 2005, 10:57 AM
This is what it is all about... TSSC Timed Swim Stroke Count... Your stroke count is down to 8 or 10 but the timed swim time is up to 50 sec for 50m this is not good. It is better to stroke a little faster and get your swim time down.

geochuck
May 25th, 2005, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Michael Heather
28 for LCM 50 at 42 seconds
Time plus strokes = 70 - if par is 72 (golf) you are two under par. Anything under par is good.

jswim
May 25th, 2005, 10:59 AM
short course yards.. 14 strokes per length and 36 seconds..
=64.