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BillS
May 24th, 2005, 08:57 PM
Hi, new to the board, back in the pool about 4 months.

Worked up to doing Mo Chambers workouts, but always substituting for fly in the IM's because I just never learned it.

I've always been a lousy kicker, but I bought a pair of Zoomers and quit using the board, which has helped a bunch. I do dolphins front and side and flutter on my back. I just started to dolphin kick off the flip (without the fins), which has really helped reduce stroke count (10 catchup; 13 -- 14 normally; 15 + is a failed lap). I'm 6'2" and dropped from 200+ when I started down to 190 - 195, which feels great.

Today I tried doing the fly legs in the IM's wearing the Zoomers, and I think there's some hope. Can a 44 year old lousy kicker learn to fly? Is it OK to learn with fins? Are there bad habits to watch out for when learning with or without the fins? Or should I forget about fly and just concentrate on the other three strokes?

I'm having a lot of fun swimming again, love the workouts and chat here, and am not afraid of looking like a complete dweeb.

etrain
May 26th, 2005, 11:11 AM
And always remember that Butterfly rarely feels as beautiful as it looks, so don't be discouraged if you feel jerky while swimming, it is common.

I totally disagree with that. If your butterfly is jerky, then you have something wrong. You want to be smooth and flowing while swimming butterfly. Jerky to me means butterstruggle, and that is no way to swim butterfly.

Check out the Four Strokes Made Easy from Total Immersion (http://www.totalimmersion.net).

Just my $0.02!!!

etrain

Seagurl51
May 26th, 2005, 11:21 AM
I have the Four Strokes Made Easy DVD and it's amazing! I felt a difference in my fly after about a week. My fly is still terrible, but sooo much better than it was. I highly recommend it, it's well worth the investment.

BillS
May 26th, 2005, 12:55 PM
I've looked at the TI stuff and wondered if it was worth a damn . . . this gives me an excuse to exercise my credit card, one of my favorite sports-related activities . . .

Thanks for the advice. I'm up to a whopping 50 meters without drowning, which is a significant improvement over my earlier about 10-meters-then-drowning efforts, but the last 15 is largely sub-surface flailing and then I need to hang on the wall for about forever to recover. I pretend to be figuring out the next phase of the workout -- which probably isn't going to work in the middle of an IM. I'll keep at it for a while.


if you have strong abs, you can do it relatively easily.
LOL, now there's my problem. I abandoned my 6 pack about 25 years ago for those seductive 6 packs filled with green bottles. I definitely can't do it "relatively easily."

LindsayNB
May 26th, 2005, 01:02 PM
Having recently learned butterfly I'll offer some of the observations I've made of late:

1) Know whether you are going to swim one-kick or two-kick butterfly. The TI stuff teaches a one-kick stroke, a majority of other sources teach a two-kick stroke. Both are legitimate and there are swimmers at the highest levels using both, but if you try to use the TI drills while your coach is teaching you the two-kick stroke confusion and frustration will result.

2) The single most common stroke flaw I see and one I have to continually be aware of is breathing too late and/or keeping your head up too long. Your head should start descending toward the water as your hands come out of the water. It should feel like your head and shoulders are pulling your arms around in the recovery. If you stand with your arms at your side and your head back as if you were lifting it to breath (if you were horizontal) and "drop" your head forward while bringing your arms around as if recovering you should get a feel for the relationship between the two movements.

3) Another extremely common problem is kicking from the knees instead of undulating. Beginners often drop their knees and then kick back with their lower legs and feet. Usually this quickly results in the lower body dropping in the water and a lot of effort going into kicking the whole body up to the surface to breath (aka butterstruggle). You should be able to swim quite good butterfly with good body undulation and minimal knee bend.

4) Don't dive into the water with your hands and arms. You do inititiate the recovery with your head and shoulders but you want to keep your hands near the surface (to the extent that your flexibility allows). You want to press your chest down not dive down. Pressing your chest down will cause your hips to pop up to the surface where they belong. If you stand and lean your chest forward your hips will move back, it is the same feeling when swimming fly.

5) Once you are in the chest down, hip and legs up position you can bring your hips and legs down as you pull and your chest and upper body will pop up easily allowing you to breath easily. The chest, hips, knees feet moving down in progression is the undulation everyone refers to and it is very distinct from a leg based kick.

6) The important aid in using fins is that they give you forward speed. If you just undulate up and down without forward movement all you are doing is pushing water up and down with a little bit of water pushed back by the lower legs. If you aren't moving forward when you go from the chest pressed to the chest lifted to breath you are lifting a lot of water straight up. If you are moving forward you are sliding out from under the water over your back rather than lifting it up. The fins allow you to keep your forward speed easily so you can get the feel of undulating through the water. You should be able to move forward with very little "kick". If you use fins too much you will feel you feet slipping up and down when you try to swim without them.

7) Timing makes a huge difference in butterfly. As your hands enter and you press your chest down you should feel as though you are sliding down a wave and timing your kick to propel you down that wave will maintain your forward momentum. If the timing is not right it will feel more like you landed on top of the wave. This is the kick that you do in one kick butterfly. The kick that flows out of the chest press, hip press, leg press is the one that will propel you forward and up out of the water to breath and if the timing is right relative to the pull it will make getting high enough to breath easy. This is the second kick and even one-kick swimmers do it a bit, just with less emphasis, which is why some people refer to one kick fly as one and a half kick fly.

I think that while learning fly its all about the hips. It is crucial to get the hips up to the surface with the chest press or your stroke will quickly turn towards vertical and you'll be spending a lot of energy on vertical movement instead of forward movement. Be sure to breath as early and as quickly as possible.

Good luck!

LindsayNB
May 26th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by BillS
Thanks for the advice. I'm up to a whopping 50 meters without drowning, which is a significant improvement over my earlier about 10-meters-then-drowning efforts, but the last 15 is largely sub-surface flailing and then I need to hang on the wall for about forever to recover.

I think there is a pretty broad concensus that it is better to only swim as far as you can with relatively good form, i.e. it is better to swim 25m of quality fly, recover, and repeat than to try to swim 50m and have some of it be bad form.

I have several butterfly videos, including the TI butterfly and breaststroke video, and my favorite is the Go Swim Butterfly with Misty Hyman. http://goswim.tv/ It outlines a number of focus points and common errors with a lot of good video. The TI video is good from the point of building a stroke up from scratch using a progression of drills, but it teaches one kick fly and if you are used to two kick fly and have a coach that teaches two kick fly it can be frustrating, and there is not enough good underwater video of whole stroke swimming for my taste.

fatboy
May 26th, 2005, 04:02 PM
I have been working on fly by switching to one arm fly drill ( alternate arms every two strokes) once I cannot keep the stroke smooth.

Anyone else doing this?

poolmonkey
May 26th, 2005, 04:32 PM
I usually do that too.

When I was first learning fly, it really helped with the smooth part.

conradical
May 26th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by BillS
.... Can a 44 year old lousy kicker learn to fly? ....
Yes.

Try this forum post I made recently that collects some threads here, and some useful links:
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4552

LindsayNB made a lot of good points here, especially #2, 3, & 5 if you are just starting out. I seem to recall seeing photos of some Olympian that looked like they bent their knees rather significantly on the kick (though I agree, that action can drop you like a stone)... hummm... the opinion mill starts. (Actually I saw this photo in a 06-25-2004 by LindsayNB.)

Here are some additional notes I just made for myself:

Coach Hines says: "My philosophy is that successfully racing 200 fly requires the ability to swim relaxed fly at a moderate pace for 500 yards." He does this with his "half-fly" practice method. - from p11 of the Mar-Apr-05 issue of USMS Swimmer. The same article quoted swimmer/coach Dennis Baker saying: "Most people have a problem with their timing... trying to kick down while their arms are pulling down." His solution is to not kick at all, just let the legs drag and follow the hips, and add the timing of the kick later.

I agree that when done right butterfly (like all strokes) should feel as smooth as silk. And timing is everything! Far more critical than all the other strokes combined probably, especially for looking (and feeling) even halfway presentable when you do it.

One bit I recall seeing somewhere recently is that authorities (coaches) will often differ on opinion on certain aspects of swimming technique, but when the majority of them agree on the same item, then you can pretty well bet that it is important, and worth further scrutiny.

You will just need to glean through all the opinions, try stuff for yourself (like keeping the hips up), and decide what works best for you.

When I began earnestly practicing butterfly I was told I needed a good kick (which is true), and that I'd get a nice set of six-pack abs (I'm still waiting for that, but I'm starting to feel it). But the paradox is that it was not until I quit trying to kick that I was able to develop a good rhythm (as coach Baker, and others, confirm). As my conditioning developed and I was able to stay more horizontal (as opposed to tiring and slipping into the vertical butter-struggle), I slowly began to develop the right kick, along with that "core" strength and "undulating" movement you hear so much about (that seems so elusive till you get it).

With Butterfly you will know when you hit it. It is quite the revealing moment of clarity. Of course then the task is then to be able to maintain that moment. (Practice, study, practice, study, practice, practice, etc.) I have a ways to go before I sign up for the 200 fly, but I'm thinking I can see it now on the horizon.

I'm 6'2", 185#, and 46y/o... I've been practicing fly now for about 2 years, and I'm able to knock off 50's without much effort. I'm really enjoying it now, especially those first few 50's. But when I really learn is when I start to get tired and can still maintain my form (for me it takes a lot of concentration). I agree 100% that when you start to fall apart you need to quit, or switch to something else (another stroke, kick drills on your back, etc.).

I've never used any props (fins, kick board, etc.), but umpty-ump number of swimmers can't be wrong, so I'm sure they will help shorten the learning curve. But I'm no expert either.
expert \`ek-spert\ n - "x" = the unknown factor, "spurt" = a drip under pressure. :-)

One thing I've been focusing on recently that really seems to help, especially when I feel fatigue starting to creep in, is to really stretch out where you can put some glide into your stroke. Open the chest really wide with the arms fully extended (you should feel a really good stretch along your sides, almost into your lats), pulling your elbows back behind you (up towards the surface). It helps to have some forward motion (as described in the slipping action getting from under the water over your back). I can get a longer pull this way, which makes it easier to generate the thrust to grab that breath. I can be almost at a standstill and still keep fairly decent form with this method when I start getting tired. Momentum certainly does help though. When I do this well rested, and keeping my hips up (legs trailing behind), the stroke really flows. There is little doubt to me that this sets you up for that undulating motion so often mentioned. I recall seeing a photo in Scott Rabalais' (Duck & Dive) article that illustrated this position very well. I wish I could recall which issue of SWIM Magazine it was in.

Have Fun!

LindsayNB
May 26th, 2005, 05:41 PM
No disagreement from me that the kick can eventually include a significant bend in the knees (as illustrated by the image of Michael Phelps I posted elsewhere). My point was that you need to learn to undulate properly first and then learn to strengthen the kick. I've just seen too many people that haven't learned to undulate substitute kicking from the knee, which doesn't work well. It's a learning strategy thing not a final stroke form thing.

When I want to really stretch out my stroke I find it useful to delay my kick until after my hands enter to ensure that I get a good "downhill" glide, and then wait until my hips and legs are fully up on the surface before starting the next pull.

I also use the one arm fly a lot to warm up and establish the feel of the stroke before doing full fly, and do sets of 4-4-4, or 3-3-3 or 2-2-2 or 2-2-rest of the way full, etc.

Off topic: if you make a duplicate post you can click on the edit button, check the box at the top left and then click on the delete button at the top right.

mattson
May 29th, 2005, 08:20 AM
I tried the head-lead underwater kick drill (arms at your side, body-dolphin kick). My first time, I barely moved, flopped around like a fish on land. (This was very recent! I've been swimming fly for years, but I know my technique is screwed up.) My kick is getting better, as I've tried to coordinate the body movements. Like people say, start the pulse in the chest, and let it "whip" down to the legs.

What also helped was thinking about kicking from the hips, and not the legs. By that, I mean that I was trying to imagine kicking with the lower abdomen, and letting the legs trail behind. (That was the feeling, not what was actually happening.) I am getting better wave motion, less stress on the thighs, *and* a stronger kick.

Scansy
May 29th, 2005, 09:52 AM
What is the advantage to kicking with the arms at the side.... as opposed to in front in a streamlined position. I dolphin kick with the arms in front some but NEVER with them at my side. I can butterfly for about 3/4 of a length and then butterstruggle to the end. Although as soon as I hit the butterstruggle, I swim the rest of the way freestyle.

I know what you mean by the kick from the hips. I do this (reasonably) well early in a workout, but then later in the workout I fall into a habit of kicking with the legs.:(

I really want to learn to fly well enough to do two lengths (SCY) without stopping......I seem to suffer with the stamina though. Probably in part because my form is bad and I really have to work hard to move anywhere. Should I go back to step one - very basic wave/undulation work and build up from there? Sometimes I think that would be good.... but I don't have a coach so I'm not sure I would ever know what I was doing right/wrong.

Susan
May 29th, 2005, 10:50 AM
I think keeping your arms at your sides enables you to emphasize the undulation more. It's just like lots of other drills where you isolate one part of the stroke to work on.

Scansy
May 29th, 2005, 11:06 AM
OK, so the couple of times I have tried that.... arms at the side.... I barely move at all. I guess that's telling me my undulation is bad!?:(

How quickly is everyone able to move down the pool with arms at their sides?

LindsayNB
May 29th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Paul, have you tried various combinations of one armed fly? I always do a few lengths of one arm fly before starting into full stroke. You can do 4-4-4 (4 right-four left-four full) or 3-3-3 or 2-2-rest of the way or whatever pattern allows you to swim whatever distance you want to do. One arm fly allows you to relax and focus on your undulation or other aspects of the stroke. I find the one arm really lets me get the feel and rhythm which I can then continue into the full stroke.

You do have to make sure you are doing one arm fly and not one arm crawl with a dolphin kick.

geochuck
May 29th, 2005, 12:22 PM
Here are some animated videos, although not perfect show all the strokes including butterfly... http://people.westminstercollege.edu/faculty/ccline/clinetv/swimmers.html

Michael Heather
May 30th, 2005, 01:41 AM
Bill,

Unless you would rather watch TV than swim butterfly, save your money. If you have a coach, listen to him, he will tell you everything that is on any tape for sale.

My original post to you (since removed) was in support of your quest of swimming butterfly without struggling. Since then, you have gotten a lot of feedback about tapes and drills and such. I would not be surprised to find you confused at what to do first (or next).

Repetition is the best training, and if you repeat the correct stroke, you will be happy with the results.

Drills are something to do instead of real training. Go ahead, folks, quote that plenty!

I don't know how much butterfly these other posters have done in their lives, but it is my favorite and best stroke, and I was paid by a university to swim it for 2 years (I was a transfer student).

I totally reject the term butterstruggle because it demeans the stroke. Anyone who attempts to swim this stroke deserves respect and congratulations for their efforts.

Conniekat8
May 30th, 2005, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Michael Heather
I totally reject the term butterstruggle because it demeans the stroke. Anyone who attempts to swim this stroke deserves respect and congratulations for their efforts.

Of course they do deserve respect and congratulations, I look at them (you being one of them) with a healthy dose of envy for making it look so easy while I butter-struggle and thrash in the outside lane.

Michael Heather
May 30th, 2005, 02:24 AM
If you want to self describe your efforts that way, it is your choice. I resent someone else placing the label.

Butterfly is not easy, but it is simple. Master the simplicity of the stroke, and it looks easy.

I have been reminded that perhaps I am in the vast minority in my kinesthetic sense, so drills are helpful for almost anyone but me. I find them unfulfilling and frustrating. Just tell me what to fix on the stroke, and I'm on my way.

Scansy
May 30th, 2005, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Michael Heather
If you want to self describe your efforts that way, it is your choice. I resent someone else placing the label.

Butterfly is not easy, but it is simple. Master the simplicity of the stroke, and it looks easy.

I have been reminded that perhaps I am in the vast minority in my kinesthetic sense, so drills are helpful for almost anyone but me. I find them unfulfilling and frustrating. Just tell me what to fix on the stroke, and I'm on my way.

Two thoughts....

1. I love the part about butterfly not being easy but being simple. I have always thought that was the case. I suspect that once I get the rhythm down.... really get it down.... it will make the stroke feel great..... feel simple. But it will nver be easy - it seems to require more core body strength than the other strokes. Although a good core strength is an advantage in all strokes, breast, back and free can be done without it.

2. I tend to feel the same about drills. I don't do many true drills. I will pull or kick.... and I will do a full stroke (any of the four) where I am focusing on one piece. For example swim free focusing on body rotation. But I don't do a drill such as four kick on one side then stroke as a means to focus on that. Or swim focusing on front quadrant technique without doing a catch-up drill. I just think I can focus on a specific aspect as part of a full stroke and get the same benefit. Especially for free and breast.

All of that being said I must ask Lindsay...What is the benefit of one arm fly? I will try it the next time I'm at the pool, but want to make sure I know what I am looking for.

gull
May 30th, 2005, 07:35 AM
I don't watch many swimming tapes, but a teammate lent me Michael Phelps Flying Lessons (which he rented from this site). Some things that were emphasized:

1. Soft hands on entry.

2. Short distance repeats (25s, 50s, 75s)--with short rest-- so your form does not deteriorate.

3. One arm drills like 2-2-2 (two strokes with one arm, two with the other, than two complete strokes) to work on timing over longer distances without tiring.

4. Emphasis on the "body dolphin" (kicking with the core as well as the legs), with repeats on the surface, underwater, on the side, and vertical (with weights). His coach considers this now a fifth stroke.

LindsayNB
May 30th, 2005, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Scansy
All of that being said I must ask Lindsay...What is the benefit of one arm fly? I will try it the next time I'm at the pool, but want to make sure I know what I am looking for.

Craig beat me to answering your question:


Originally posted by Scansy
3. One arm drills like 2-2-2 (two strokes with one arm, two with the other, than two complete strokes) to work on timing over longer distances without tiring.

To elaborate, one arm fly allows you to slow down the stroke and do it with less energy and therefore for a longer period of time and distance. In Phelps/Bowman terminology it is an energy management issue. I can do one arm fly almost indefinately keeping good form and concentrating on timing and form where swimming whole stroke I exhaust too quickly. The slower pace also lets me better concentrate on the timing of the various parts of the stroke. With freestyle you can swim it at any speed you like, with butterfly it is harder to swim it slow and relaxed, and I find I swim differently when I swim it slow than fast. I think the key difference is that you don't need to lift yourself as far out of the water with one arm. I don't think one arm fly really has anything to do with concentrating on that one arm.

Scansy
May 30th, 2005, 10:50 AM
OK, one question. The arm that is just along for the ride.... in front or at your side?

Scansy
May 30th, 2005, 10:50 AM
OK, one question. The arm that is just along for the ride.... in front or at your side?

geochuck
May 30th, 2005, 11:05 AM
Michael Heather

I like what you say basically. When I learned to fly, I found my kick interferred with my timming so I reduced my effort on the kick and thought more about my arm entry, the kick then came natural. Next was the breathing, I stopped breathing every stroke then the rythm started to kick in. I had never done the butterfly until the dolphin kick came into the stroke. My training was all crawl work out and no drills. With a few 25s, 50s and 75s, of butterfly thrown in. I never swam more than a 75 fly during training. It was Bill Yorzyk and Jack Nelson who showed me how to fly. My first fly race was a hundred after two weeks of learning the fly. I set a new Canadian record... slow by todays standards, 57 seconds for the 100 yards but fast for those days. I did get down to just under 1:00 for a LC 100 fly.

I like full stroke workouts forget the drills...

gull
May 30th, 2005, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Scansy
OK, one question. The arm that is just along for the ride.... in front or at your side?

In front--so it's ready to begin a pull.

Scansy
May 30th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Thanks

BillS
June 6th, 2005, 01:01 PM
Thanks for all the great feedback, I've been reading the posts each day before hitting the pool and trying to remember them as I work on the stroke. Here are results so far, and a question:

The fins were helpful at first in feeling the rhthym and keeping forward momentum, but quickly turned into a crutch and, as suggested, slowed down the kick, so I quit using them. But I can recommend them if you are having trouble, as I was, in even getting going at the outset. I used the short red Zoomers.

Without the guidance of a coach or at least the videos, I didn't attempt the drills, but just concentrated on trying to swim the stroke consistently. I did get some feedback from a woman in the next lane, who pointed out I was raising my chin too high. That helped me lead with my head and get the swimming downhill feeling going, at least until I get tired. I noticed I tend to start kicking with my knees as I get tired, too. And a guard reminded me that I don't need to breathe every stroke, but can keep my head down for a cycle.

A couple more questions. What kind of stroke count should I be looking for in a 25 m length? Looking at the videos, it appears that a quick turnover rate is more important in fly than a whole lot of glide, so that means a relatively high stroke count? I'm going 10 -- 12 right now (although I'm staying underwater off the walls and dolphining for all I'm worth to cut down on the amount of time I actually have to swim the stroke :)) And the rules say I don't need to breathe every stroke, right?

Thanks for all the tips.

LindsayNB
June 6th, 2005, 01:50 PM
The rules don't specify how often you have to breath, you can breath every stroke or not at all or anywhere inbetween.

Maryyyyyy
June 6th, 2005, 02:00 PM
I'm no expert, but at Berkeley I used to swim next to a girl named Mary T., aka Madame Butterfly...

I asked her: "how do you do that?"

She replied: "NEVER think of pulling your arms out of the water - it's impossible, so if you think about it you'll never be able to do it. Forget that part. Think only of THROWING your hands back into the water for the re-entry. And, enter your head in the water leading with the crown, NOT with your face... the rest follows."

I know it's not much, but it came from a lady who knew what she was doing, and sure helped my stroke! I just love doing 50m fly!!

Mary

Tom Ellison
June 6th, 2005, 02:21 PM
One post here made a great point with the advice regarding short dist. workouts in the fly. Once a swimmer gets super tired in the fly, the next thing that happens is the stroke falls apart. Once the stroke falls apart swimming fly is as helpful as getting drunk at practice.

Fishgrrl
June 6th, 2005, 02:50 PM
LOL! Tom...I had to reread your post because I thought it read, "....once the stroke falls apart it is helpful to get drunk at practice...."

I was thinking, "OK...that's one way to look at it. At least I'd be relaxed..."

Matt S
June 6th, 2005, 11:56 PM
Coach Hines wrote two articles a while back, and I have found them very helpful. You can find them at his team's web site: http://www.h2oustonswims.org/

Click on the "Articles" tab, and then read "Slip Slidin' Away" & "Vive Le Papillon" About three-four years ago I resolved to become an example of "that guy." (Read the articles and you'll know what I mean.) I was officially there last April at the Illinois Masters SCY Championships when I swam one of the easiest 200 fly races ever.

Please note that the goal was not to swim my fastest 200 fly ever (well, a PR from college days pretty much took that off the table regardless of what I do), but an easy 200 fly. In other words have control of my pace and technique so that I can swim a 200 or longer anytime I chose, and have the option of accelerating during some portion of the second half of the race. Here are a few lessons I learned on the way. These are idiosyncratic and may or may not be relevant to you:
- One kick fly works. I've gone with the Emmett Hines/Total Immersion approach, which as Lindsey points out is a one beat kick per stroke cycle. The application to distance fly is pretty clear. The surprise is I can sprint this way too. I simply think of kicking up with as much authority as I kick down, and I broke a PR in the 50m fly with this technique.
- Swim with your body, not your arms. Learn to body dolphin first, then fit your arm stroke in to the body dolphin rhythm. This usually means karate chopping your arms out a little earlier than full arm extension at the back of the stroke, so you can complete the arm stroke in one body dolphin. For 200s, I found the key to maintaining form was to think of NOT pulling, but simply let my arms go along for the ride.
- Oxygen management. What makes fly so challenging is the problem of lifting your shoulders out of the water enough for over arm recovery and breathing, and still lifting your hips up to the surface so you don't drag them through the water. One way to solve that is to not breath every cycle, which lets you keep you shoulders a little lower and helps the sinking hips problem. The challenge is swiming fly with one third to one half less oxygen than if you breathed every stroke. The solution that worked for me was to breath every stroke, and use a small glide after my arms recovered. During this time, I pressed my chest deeper for a split second longer, and my hips floated into position every stroke cycle. I was waiting longer for the breath, but breathing every stroke more than made up for it. This is what really let me throttle down my fly so I could swim it as long as I chose. A great drill for that is to alternate two cycles of breaststroke with two cycles of fly. Make the fly feel more like breast (i.e. a glide) and make the breast feel more like fly (i.e. more body dolphin action).

Meaning no disrespect to Michael by using the term butterstruggle, it is simply a statement of reality for most of us. Michael is the gifted exception. As a scholarship flyer, I'm sure he can power through a 200 fly with great speed and control, and look terrific. He's the other kind of swimmer Emmett described in his articles. Unfortunately for me (and I did swim a little fly as a Div III athlete myself, so I ain't exactly chopped liver) I don't have those skills, and I have to be very crafty with my technique to avoid the dreaded butterstruggle.

BTW, I wholeheartedly agree that you should limit fly distances and repeats to those you can do with good form. Don't grind yardage after it falls apart or you will be learning butterstruggle. That is the genius of Emmett's 500 yard "easy fly" swim. You only do good form fly, AND you get the confidence boost of working towards not just 200, but 500 yards of fly.

Matt

cinc3100
June 7th, 2005, 01:21 AM
Well, for many swimmers fly and 200 fly is conditioning. That why 1000's of 13 year old girls can break the 3:00 barrier in 200 meter fly and only 7 women master swimmers 45 to 56 can do that. We don't workout the yardage for it. Unlike Breaststroke which is easy but you have to have perfect timing,fly you have to be in shape for, especially if its further than a 50.

LindsayNB
June 7th, 2005, 10:12 AM
The breathing frequency issue reminds me of an observation I made at a recent meet where I was a turns judge. Many of the younger and slower swimmers did not keep a constant stroke rhythm when they breathed, their stroke rate was faster when they weren't breathing than on strokes where they were. The faster swimmers seemed to have a pretty much even stroke rate regardless of whether they were breathing on any particular stroke. I know that for shorter distances I swim faster when I breath less often. I expect some of this is simply that I keep a more streamlined body position when I don't breath, but I wonder if maybe I don't also delay my recovery a bit when I breath. I really need to get video taped...

BillS
June 7th, 2005, 01:12 PM
Thanks, Matt, I read Emmet's articles yesterday after re-reading the older fly thread and was anxious to give his techniques a try -- and then an ENTIRE MIDDLE SCHOOL showed up at MY POOL and took up almost the entire pool, turning it into a churning rapid. And a nice lady who asked to share my lane thought lane splitting meant that she swam the center line while I hugged the lane line. After I about clipped her a couple of times doing catchup free, I gave up on any fly for the day, cause I'm sure I would have tagged her then.

Just as a rhetorical question, if you are a nice middle aged lady and have 3 single swimmer lanes to choose from, why would you choose the one with the tallest guy in the pool with the longest arms? Although she was not in the same league as the woman who dropped into my lane, unannounced from the opposite end, in the middle of sprints, whom I encountered to my great surprise while I was in full cry mid-length. She was doing the sidestroke dead center down the lane, and fixed me with a steely glare for almost hitting her.

But I digress. Actually, it's great to see the kids having a good time at the pool, and my wife brought our 5 and 2 year old down. There's nothing much better in this world than the look on my learning-to-swim-but-already-thinks-he-can 5 year old's face after retrieving a diving ring off the bottom.

And I know I'm spoiled -- I usually have an entire lane, and often there's no more than one or two other people swimming over the lunch hour. If I go past 1:00, it's often just me, which is a great way to concentrate on stroke mechanics.

And today I have a schedule conflict and can't swim. But I'm hoping to try some of Emmett's stuff tomorrow, because I, too, am hoping to become "that guy," even though a couple of weeks ago I'd never done fly for more than 10 meters.

Thanks to all the posters for the comments and advice, they are greatly appreciated.

LindsayNB
June 7th, 2005, 02:00 PM
Another use for one arm fly: to get past an oncoming swimmer without anyone getting hurt. ;)

BillS
June 7th, 2005, 05:34 PM
I knew there was a reason for that drill!:D

jswim
June 7th, 2005, 05:51 PM
what is the best way to do one armed fly?

I've seen people do it with their arm in front of them, which is the way I do it, but then have read here that some people do it with their arm at their side..

Which is best (if any?)

Matt S
June 7th, 2005, 11:21 PM
Cin,

Yes for a lot of people the 200 is conditioning, and it certainly helps. But if you want to discover the tao of the fly, learn from your elders. My first steps on the path to enlightenment (or what passes as such in my darkened corner of the jungle) was watching the swimmers in the 70-74 age group for the 200 fly at Nationals. Those dudes are decidely NOT powering through the race on pure conditioning. That was my first clue to breathing more often than every other stroke, since they generally breathed every stroke, but their hips magically stay up. Things that made me say "hmm."

Safety point: I have developed a habit I call break away arm stroke to avoid injury. It's very simple. If I feel my arm encounter anything as it recovers (especially another arm or body part of a swimmer going the opposite direction), I immediately let it go limp &/or flop it back to my side. Missing half of a stroke cycle is infinitely preferable to breaking or pulling something for either one of us.

I was pretty amused at your description of a whole middle school invading your pool. Been there. When I was a kid on a summer league team, we used to take over a chunk of a large municiple pool that was 25 yards wide. The lifeguards would simply run off the rec swimmers, and we'd take over that section for an hour or so. One practice our coach had us doing all out 25 sprint flys, from the dive off the side of the pool. That section looked pretty inviting to one swimmer (funny how immersion of the exterior of the body has such profound effects on the internal operation of people's cerebral cortext. Folks who would never think of coming within 10 feet of the out of bounds line on a land sport think nothing of sashaying right in front of a swimmer in full out sprint mode, usually with about one foot separation) 'cause he wandered into our area with precisely zero situational awareness. The first any of us became aware of his presence is when I speared the dude with the crown of my head directly impacting his torso at full speed. If it was the NFL, they would have flagged me for 15 yards and ejected me from the game. Lucky for us both I'm me, and not Ian Crocker, because neither of us was more than stunned. I'd be willing to bet though that dude was pretty careful about avoiding the swim team section of the pool in the future.

When that's all I have for the IT cracker barrel tonight.

Happy laps,
Matt

BillS
June 8th, 2005, 12:45 PM
Awww, don't get me started -- the Aquarobes finish up around noon. The lap lanes in our pool are in the middle, with the Aquarobes doing their thing in the shallow end, and the locker rooms adjacent to the deep end. Several of them daily bob through the lap lanes after their deal heading to the locker room, usually with no regard for the lap swimmers, or if they do pay attention, hanging on the lane lines, or worse, the wall, until the offending swimmer passes by. It's not so much the distraction, or the hanging -- it's the insane amounts of perfume most of them seem to wear and leave in (always her) wake. The water smells and tastes of it for a long, long time after they bob through.

I mean no disrespect to Aquarobes in general. I have great respect for anyone who does any degree of exercise consistently. But perfume in the pool?

I'm trying Emmett Hines's stuff today; we'll see how it goes. I've been sticking to 25's, and stopping fly as soon as technique falls apart, even mid-length. I'm hoping to start stretching yardage using his suggestions. I figure there is absolutely no point learning to Butterstruggle at my age; I'll either get it right or I'll revert to substituting other strokes to get through the IM's. Curiously, Hines says it shoud be easier to do SAP with the arms at the side than in a streamline position. I've found the opposite to be true, and I ain't exactly flexible. I'll try it both ways.

craiglll@yahoo.com
June 8th, 2005, 01:08 PM
I knew a guy once who wanted to improve his fly. So he started swimming nohting but fly. He would break whenever he was tired. He started doing 50's & 25's, then he worked up to doing 100's & 200's. He didn't care about form, only how tired he was. In time he got to where he could go 600 to 800 yds straight doing perfect fly. He would breath every stroke. Sometimes he was barely able to get his arms above the water on the recovery. But in time, that didn't matter.

In his case, form was unimportant for much of the time. Distance was more important. He would do work outs of 2000 yds all fly. He got a great set of ab muscles along the way. He did no kicking nor arm drills. Just fly. His shoulders became boulders!

BillS
September 22nd, 2005, 01:28 PM
I went back and re-read all of the posts in this thread 4 months after I started out. They make a whole lot more sense to me now than when I first read them, and all are spot-on.

So here's where I've ended up:

I fell into a 2 kick fly. It just feels more natural to me.

I'm currently breathing just about every stroke after trying an every other pattern early on. As I stretch the distances, I'm grateful for the oxygen intake, and it gives me an opportunity to work on my head position every stroke. I don't notice an appreciable difference in my stroke when I skip a breath.

I was bending my knees too much and kicking way too hard. I find it helps to think about the whip metaphor, and concentrate on the forward momentum coming off straight legs with fully extended toes.

My kick timing was messed up, I think due to my confusion over one kick vs. 2 kick fly. A private coaching session helped clear that up for me by emphasizing the rhythm.

She also showed me how to correctly do one arm fly; I was struggling to understand how to do it. One arm is a great drill, and a great way to finish a length when I run out of gas.

50's are finally starting to feel pretty solid. Tuesday I decided a good challenge would be to do 15 consecutive 100 IM's in the middle of the workout; I was able to get through those by allowing myself to rest as needed between 100's. Yesterday I swam 6 200 IM's, although not consecutively, plus a couple of 100 IM's, plus a few extra 25's of warmup fly for good measure. The last few 200's weren't pretty, but I concentrated hard on not butterstruggling and allowed myself to come up early on the breastroke pullout a couple of times.

So my immediate goal is to be able to do a 200 IM reasonably comfortably. Then I think I'll try and get to the point where I can get through a 100 fly.

So far so good. Thanks for all the pointers, I appreciate each and every one.

gjy
September 29th, 2005, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by BillS
I went back and re-read all of the posts in this thread 4 months after I started out. I was cleaning up old bookmarks and I came across this thread. I re-read all of it too, like BillS (the originator). The first time was rather quick and I understand things a little better now too. I get to BillS' post at the end and I see his "4 Month Update" from last week but somehow I missed seeing this thread up top (I should have gravitated to anything "butterfly"). I agree this is a real good thread and all comments are interesting.

I forgot about the number of people (two here?) that don't like doing drills which is also me.

I see there is an explanation of the one-arm fly drill here which I had been looking for. Not that I want to do it at this point - I wanted to know what was to be accomplished by it. Mostly I get here that it allows you to work on timing - other than that, the purposes seem kind of weak. I don't need to work on timing anymore - I've got it now - it's automatic. A couple weeks ago, I did finally give the one-arm drill a better try, for a full couple laps (but I erroneously, I guess, did not switch arms) and I couldn't even guess what its purpose was. I think there is a rule, isn't there, that you don't do a drill unless you know what you are trying to accomplish.

One thing about this thread seems highly typical. The people willing to talk about butterfly techique (other than in "bullet" form) are all people who have recently learned or are still very much learning. It seems once we figure it out, we don't have much to say.

I see a couple here, including BillS, are going with breathing every stroke. I was on the verge of taking this course myself. Congratulations, BillS, on your success to date ("50's are finally starting to feel pretty solid"), you've stayed ahead of me. Several weeks ago I was able to knock out good 50's on occassion. And since then my form has more than dramtically improved. But due to asthma/allergies, my breathing ability has correspondingly degraded. I had already been paying a heavy price because I was getting a ridicuously runny nose for the rest of the day most times I went swimming (it never runs while swimming though, only congestion). Often the running would carry over to part of the next day. But then the problem turned to primarily congestion and it's been lasting one or two days after each swim. It's not mild congestion either. So it looks like the only way I'm going to get 50 and beyond is with drugs or possibly with a different pool. Maybe next year. In the meantime, I've gotten great physical benefit from doing fly (3 days a week, and all the fly I could do, for the past month). My back seems to be more flexible and my upper body muscle has maintained even though I stopped weight training a couple months ago. My stomach muscles have got to be stronger. Every time I get my breathing back, I feel great.

BillS
September 29th, 2005, 01:51 PM
But due to asthma/allergies, my breathing ability has correspondingly degraded.

I can't imagine trying to learn fly with asthma or chronic congestion. I have yet to get to the point where I can finish any set of fly of almost any distance without serious oxygen debt.

Good luck to you, I hope you can figure out a way to make it work for you. I agree that fly is an incredible stroke for conditioning, particularly for the core. I think it's helping my breaststroke, too, although I have no empirical evidence at this point.

We did a set this morning that was kind of interesting: a 400 IM broken with the 100's as a 25 pull, 50 swim, 25 kick. I took the fly real easy, and cheated and kicked a little on the first 25, but found that I felt pretty good for most of the 50 and the kick. Somehow, the easy "pull" 25 got me going in a way that didn't sap all my energy and led me into the 50.

gjy
September 30th, 2005, 02:45 AM
"Serious oxygen debt" is dead on.

Most of the time, the asthma is not a major impediment while swimming, considering only that I'm not planning to enter competition. The main affect is probably just the length of the sets that I can do. However, you know as well as I do just how short you can come up on breath (even beyond serious oxygen debt) when you push fly at the wrong time. But I imagine it's the same for any other stroke if you push hard enough (hmmm, funny how so far I can only get the same level of breath exhaustion from breaststroke).

Many times I switch to breathing every fly stroke, towards the end of a lap, but often not soon enough. I don't know why I seem to wait too long except that maybe it is not as obvious just how short the breath is getting until it's too late. I think I'm going to adopt "breathing every stroke" for at least all of the second 25's.

This past week the (hot) winds have been so bad that I'm having trouble breathing, swimming or not. And I'm not even downwind of the fires you see on tv. It's weird that even though fly can be extremely hard in times like this, if possible, I'll try to swim tomorrow because I am still motivated by the fly (and not so much by the other strokes I do). Otherwise, I would call it a wrap for the season given the water temperature and the congestion.

jpheather
September 30th, 2005, 09:29 AM
I've got asthma and even though we're not downwind from the fires (Pasadena) my asthma has been bothering me more than normal. I think the particulate matter in the air is higher, even though you can't see or smell it. It's the small stuff and that's more likely to aggrevate asthma than the big snowflake size stuff.

If you're out of breath learning fly, that's OK. If you're wheezing learning fly, then talk to your doctor. There's so much they can do and it will make learning fly (and swimming in general) much easier! I also find that using my inhaler right before I swim makes a big difference. If I don't, I start wheezing about 15 min into the workout, which is the exercised induced asthma acting up.

gjy
October 4th, 2005, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by jpheather
If you're out of breath learning fly, that's OK. If you're wheezing learning fly, then talk to your doctor. There's so much they can do and it will make learning fly (and swimming in general) much easier! I also find that using my inhaler right before I swim makes a big difference. If I don't, I start wheezing about 15 min into the workout, which is the exercised induced asthma acting up. I never wheeze or get a runny nose while swimming. Once in a rare while I might sneeze. When cycling, all kinds of stuff happens (because of the allergens being slammed into you) that does not happen when I swim. However, when cycling, and I do cycle very hard, my asthma is far less restrictive than it is for swimming. In fact, I don't even consider it much of a handicap for cycling. I do not get exercise induced asthma unless that is what is happening during and after swimming. What happens when I swim is that my "carburetor choke valve" (nasal region respiration) isn't properly open. But what happens after I'm done swimming is actually worse - it's like having a sinus only cold. Twenty years ago a doctor gave me an "inhaler" but it didn't seem to do anything for me although I am worse off now than I was then (I would be willing to try again especially for swimming). Over ten years plus I tried every asthma medication on the market and almost none was good for me except that the steroid nose sprays help a lot. A couple years ago I stopped the nose spray because my insurance costs have gone up so much I thought I would see what it is like without it. I'm more than ready to get back on because it probably helps about 20% and I feel it is safe. The only other medication I've used is one with pseudoephedrine in it. It often helps and I still have a few capsules stored in the fridge but I never tried it for swimming, until now. I took one (low dose time release cap) before I went swimming yesterday and it helped quite a bit, especially at first. My "choke valve" eventually became closed enough to be a pretty restrictive but after I was done swimming the nasal problems did not happen like they always do. So I think I need these "banned?" items: steroids and pseudoephedrine (a stimulant I believe). The (now "legal") caffeine and ibuprofen are optional. Perhaps I need to top it off with an inhaler. Then I should be good to go!

I've gone swimming now two times (in cold water dammit) since I adopted "breathing every stroke" for fly. First I discovered what a great drill it is to breathe every stroke. I found out that my form was quite rough when I breathe every stroke. I really went to work on my breathing stroke. Previously I had been a "late" breather and that was no longer working for me. I have to rise and breathe sooner to smooth out the stroke; I would have thought the opposite. Breathing every stroke still seems a little less elegant and I am slower now too. I should be able to improve both these. Perhaps I can skip the last breath or two when getting coming up to a stop because at that point I don't think the final breaths matter. You would think that for all the demand that fly places on oxygen usage, that breathing twice as often would help more. I'm guessing that it only makes it 5 or 10 % easier. I wonder why. Lately I'm doing freestyle right after fly and I want to breath almost every stroke for freestyle. Breathing every stroke for free seems to make a lot more difference than it does for fly.

jpheather
October 4th, 2005, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by gjy
But what happens after I'm done swimming is actually worse - it's like having a sinus only cold.

Have you tried an antihistime before you swim (like Claritin)? Sure sounds like you're allergic to the water or air around the pool!

squintytwinkie
October 5th, 2005, 12:30 AM
Is it a problem to have a runny nose once u start swimming? I get runny noses but that's it. I blow it out and then it's solved and I dont' have other symptoms.

gjy
October 5th, 2005, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by jpheather
Have you tried an antihistime before you swim (like Claritin)? Sure sounds like you're allergic to the water or air around the pool!
Thanks so much Julie for trying to help.

I tried Claritin about fifteen years ago and it didn't do anything at all (like most of the allergy meds I've tried). When Claritin-D came out, I tried it and it opened my nasal passage like nothing I had experienced before or since. Unbelievably good breathing! However, if you were to read the possible side-effects on the label, I had many of them massively. It totally blew me away, made me sick.

Late last night when I made my last post, I said that the pseudoephedrine combo had helped a lot. About the time of that post, it was wearing off and I was congested all night and all day again and I'm tired of dealing with it. If I would have known, I would have taken more of the drug this morning although I think it loses its value the more I take it.

I'm at a low point right now. The weather is hanging in there but I'm going to have to quit swimming for the year. I didn't expect to be able to swim this long and figuring it was going to end was the reason I stuck it out as things gradually became worse. Whatever is bothering me, possibly chlorine, has become cumulative. And the problem carrying over to following days should seem odd but it isn't for me. I just chalk it up to yet another thing that now makes me sick. Next year I'll either swim a lot less or be ready with whatever new drugs I can try. One of the reasons I am an exercise nut is because it provides relief for these problems. Swimming is the best exercise of them all so I hope I find a way to get back to it.

"Is it a problem to have a runny nose once u start swimming? I get runny noses but that's it. I blow it out and then it's solved and I dont' have other symptoms."

Well there is some good to my posting about my stupid problems after all. See how lucky you are to have such a slight problem. Sounds reasonably normal to me. I would just try to be discreet and proper about it.

HeatherCW
October 5th, 2005, 07:31 AM
I have the same symptoms as you at one of the pools in my area. I switched to another pool (still run by the same recreation department) and have had no problems.

I wonder whether there's something in the walls or the ceiling at the pool that we're allergic to - mould, fungus, etc.?

Heather

jpheather
October 5th, 2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by gjy
I tried Claritin about fifteen years ago and it didn't do anything at all

I admit, it doesn't do anything for me either. I use Allegra, but it's still prescription only.

Another thing you might want to try is Nasalcrom, I believe it is over the counter, but you have to use it regularly for it to work (it's a nasal spray).

It's also ragweed season in California right now, and my sinuses have gone crazy.

What pool do you swim at?

gjy
October 5th, 2005, 05:16 PM
"Is there another pool available? I have the same symptoms as you at one of the pools in my area. I switched to another pool (still run by the same recreation department) and have had no problems."

Well all this is bearing fruit after all. I didn't expect that anybody else would have had similar symptoms. I've been using only one outdoor community association pool. I really don't know how close the closest public or lap pool is; I need to look into that.

"I wonder whether there's something in the walls or the ceiling at the pool that we're allergic to - mould, fungus, etc.?"

The pool was resurfaced at the beginning of the year. I don't remember what problems I had last year but I've had a problem the whole time this year. I've swam a whole lot more this year, more than ever before although I was in the pool frequently as a small kid. It seems that the longer I'm in the pool on a given day the more symptoms I have (in addition to the overall worsening). In the past, if I had nasal problems after swimming, I might not have thought so much about it since I have plenty of ongoing problems anyway. I've been tested to be allergic to mold as well as most of the rest of the things they probably tested for.

"I admit, [Claritin] doesn't do anything for me either. I use Allegra, but it's still prescription only. Another thing you might want to try is Nasalcrom"

I've given Allegra and Nasalcrom a good try. Neither works. I've been asked your original question, "Have your tried Claritin?", many times. I haven't tried the products that came out in the last several years so I should have a few new ones to try.

"It's also ragweed season in California right now, and my sinuses have gone crazy."

I'm sure that one gets me too. Possibly it is all the stuff that blows into the pool. Say when I cycle on a bad day, it is easier to recognize the problem. For one, the symptoms occur immediately and I may feel bad and my eyes will end up being bloodshot. Those noticeably bad days are not terribly frequent and mostly in the spring. After swimming, I never feel bad, quite the opposite. It is limited to the annoying nasal problems but a few times I have had trouble getting air because of the congestion. I particularly don't like this which almost never otherwise happens.

Thanks much! I got some ideas to work on - probably for next year.

ljodpundari
October 10th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Pseudoephedrine isn't illegal, just restricted. In Oklahoma* you can only buy something like 90 tablets a month (and present an ID, sign a logbook, etc.), but taking more than that would probably be bad for your health anyhow.

You want to be careful with this if you have high blood pressure or any sort of heart problem, but small doses would probably be OK.

Chili pepper (capsaicin) is a natural decongestant, but it might be inadvisable to go out for Thai food just before a workout. I find a nice spicy soup works wonders sometimes when nothing else seems to get my head clear.

Disclaimer: My problem is (severe) hayfever, not asthma. And my butterfly is simply hilarious.

Tom
AFAIK Oklahoma was the first state to restrict the sale of pseudoephedrine (Sudaphed, etc.). The law has caused a dramatic drop in the number of methamphetamine labs, as well as in the associated fires and explosions.

LindsayNB
October 10th, 2005, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by gjy
I forgot about the number of people (two here?) that don't like doing drills which is also me.

I see there is an explanation of the one-arm fly drill here which I had been looking for. Not that I want to do it at this point - I wanted to know what was to be accomplished by it. Mostly I get here that it allows you to work on timing - other than that, the purposes seem kind of weak. I don't need to work on timing anymore - I've got it now - it's automatic. A couple weeks ago, I did finally give the one-arm drill a better try, for a full couple laps (but I erroneously, I guess, did not switch arms) and I couldn't even guess what its purpose was. I think there is a rule, isn't there, that you don't do a drill unless you know what you are trying to accomplish.
[/B]

On the Phelps/Bowman fly video Bowman refers to one arm fly when talking about energy management, i.e. you can do more one arm fly than you can two arm fly.

One arm fly also allows you to slow the whole stroke down (as opposed to just adding a glide phase) which allows you to concentrate on various technique issues the same way many people advocate swimming at a slower pace in freestyle while you work on technique. Apparently Phelps swims a lot of one arm fly and feels it is important to maintaining and improving his technique.

swiminton
October 10th, 2005, 09:24 PM
I agree with most of the things said here. I myself am still learning fly. To me timing is almost the single most important thing. I always try to kick my hands in and hands out. I actually disagree that you should not think about kicking from the knees at all. This may lead someone to think keeping the legs straight (as almost in freestyle). When I learned, for a short while, I was under that misconception. For me, the easier way is to think of your whole legs as a big tail with the lower part bend at some angle when propellig (45 degrees). As long as you are moving your upper legs and hips the lower legs shoudl come naturally.

Again, I am still learning it and just my two cents.

The trouble I have is more on the pull. Do you pull backward immeidately after your hands enter water, or is there an outsweep and insweep involved?

geochuck
October 11th, 2005, 09:17 AM
The fly kick, the more you think about it the worse it gets, kick from the shoulders and how in the world are your kmees going to be rigid and straight there is a natural bend in the knees other wise you woud be like a stiff legged tin solder . We have to let things happen naturally.

BillS
February 27th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Signed up for a pentathlon (one event of each stroke plus an IM) in March. I never did swim fly as a kid, so this is the first time in competition for me and the public debut of my new stroke.

I would have liked to do 100's in the other strokes and the 200 IM, but wasn't comfortable leading off my day with a 100 fly, so I signed up for 50's and 100 IM.

"What's the worst that can happen?" I thought rhetorically as I mailed in the entry. Please don't answer that question; I'm sure I'll find out on my own.:o

I swim meters, and the meet is SCY, so I'm psyching myself up by reminding myself that the 50 is 10% shorter, plus the dive will eat up some serious pool (I'm planning on gliding for as long as I can or as adrenalin allows, whichever somes first.)

Should be some fun.

geochuck
February 27th, 2006, 07:17 PM
50 yards is only half of the 100 that you intended to do in the first place. It will be a breeze.

Matt S
February 28th, 2006, 11:33 AM
Go to www.h2oustonswims.org

Click on the Articles link

Find "Slip-Slid'n Away" Read it.

If you find it interesting, useful, etc., read "Vive Le Papillon!"

Most important of all, swim fly with your body, not your arms.

Matt

AnnG
February 28th, 2006, 01:46 PM
Bill your pentathlon is going to be great - this was my first masters meet ten years ago and you are further along in your training than I was at that time. You are going to have a blast! Just don't miss your heat - they go very quickly.
Actually if you want to step up your training I was thinking you would be a good partner in one of my LT sets. I am to a point where I am struggling to maintain the sendoff on the 100's on my own. Since you are faster I thought you could help pull me through the last third of the set. So what do you think, the week of March 13th, 1/2 hour of 100m free on 1:40? Would not be quite LT for you but would really help me! Ann

BillS
February 28th, 2006, 02:16 PM
Thanks, MattS, for reminding me about those articles. I've read them a few times now, but I went back and read them again this morning. I find something new, or that something he says makes more sense, with each read.

By the way, there are a lot of really good articles at the site, many of which are highly relevant to the apocalyptic TI debate which was recently raging yet again.

Ann, do I need to know what LT means to make the set work? Sure, happy to help out, Wed. or Fri noonish work for me. And trust me, 30 minutes of 100 SCM's on a 1:40 sendoff will be plenty sporty for me, even if they are not quite whatever LT is.