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tjrpatt
June 9th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Did anyone see the new Gary Hall, Jr Barbarsol commerical. It is about time swimmers get some good endorsements besides Speedo and the other swimming apparel companies. Madison Ave has really come a long way in the last few years. You would never see a swimmer in a commerical a year after the Olympics before. It is nice to know that all the endorsements aren't going to Phelps even though the boy more than deserves whatever endorsements he get. I mean Phelps is out of this world.

SwiminONandON
June 9th, 2005, 05:11 PM
Gary Hall annoys me ... though I respect his tremendous talent, and find SOME of his antic funny ...

Edited to add: yeah to swimmers getting endorsements and to someone other than Mike or Amanda getting them (love both of them)

Seagurl51
June 9th, 2005, 05:33 PM
I was Houston a few weeks ago and I saw a billboard that had a swimmer on it. It wasn't any "big name" just someone doing fly. But still, a swimmer is a swimmer. I had to laugh though when I saw that it was advertising beer...couldn't help but think how fitting. :D

SwiminONandON
June 9th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Flyers are alcoholics ;)

tjrpatt
June 9th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
Gary Hall annoys me ... though I respect his tremendous talent, and find SOME of his antic funny ...

Edited to add: yeah to swimmers getting endorsements and to someone other than Mike or Amanda getting them (love both of them)

I know Mel Stewart does that low calorie beer commerical where he swims against the pool and she gets out early.

tjrpatt
June 9th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
Gary Hall annoys me ... though I respect his tremendous talent, and find SOME of his antic funny ...

Edited to add: yeah to swimmers getting endorsements and to someone other than Mike or Amanda getting them (love both of them)

Gary does annoy me too but he does have alot of Olympic medals.

Larry
June 9th, 2005, 06:52 PM
The problem with Gary Hall Jr. (imo) is that he hasn't figured out that swimming is a team sport. A case in point is during the past couple of Olympics, he dons the "Gary Hall Jr" boxing robe, those stupid Apollo Creed style shorts and struts on the blocks like Roberto Duran while his teammates wear traditional Team USA uniforms and generally conduct themselves with class. He also fires up his Australian opponents with "air guitar" comments without regard for his teammates. Small wonder that he was excluded from the 4x100 relay team in Anthens even though he is among the world's fastest sprinters. He's an enormous talent and it's a shame that he squanders it because of his selfishness and immaturity. Gary Hall Sr. was on those two amazing men's Olympic teams in '72 and '76 and didn't feel compelled to act like a jerk. I'd be more inclined to buy a product pitched by Hall Sr, Phelps, Vendt, Crocker, Malchow, or just about anyone besides GH Jr.

aquageek
June 9th, 2005, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Larry
The problem with Gary Hall Jr. (imo) is that he hasn't figured out that swimming is a team sport.

He's figured out swimming just fine and has the hardware to prove it.

Fishgrrl
June 9th, 2005, 07:44 PM
Aquageek!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. I saw him interviewed and he was dignified and classy, I thought.

aquageek
June 9th, 2005, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Larry
I'd be more inclined to buy a product pitched by Hall Sr, Phelps, Vendt, Crocker, Malchow, or just about anyone besides GH Jr.

I'd be more inclined to party with Phelps and Hall, Jr personally.

swimrat
June 9th, 2005, 08:42 PM
I think if swimming was a team sport we'd all be playing water polo.

I don't think that swimming is a team sport in any way, other than racking up INDIVIDUAL points contributing to your team. Gary Hall in my opinion showed his team spirit by just being from the USA, and I think he's great for wanting to stand out.

kaffrinn
June 9th, 2005, 09:07 PM
I have to admit, I'm a big fan. I have always looked forward to his races and have made a point to watch them. First of all, he's fast, but I also love the strutting, the flexing, and the outrageous get-ups. It makes me laugh out loud and want to cheer for him all the more. His behavior isn't out of control or overly rude, it's just fun, and I think his personality attracts even more viewers to these events.

kaffrinn
June 9th, 2005, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Larry
Gary Hall Sr. was on those two amazing men's Olympic teams in '72 and '76 and didn't feel compelled to act like a jerk.

Well, in the 1976 Olympics, when each country could send 3 swimmers in each event, Gary Hall Sr. himself said that the men's US team would strut through the Olympic Village towards the pool, with an American Flag and a broom, chanting "Sweep! Sweep! Sweep!"

I think that ranks up there with "play them like guitars."

tjrpatt
June 9th, 2005, 10:45 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by swimrat
[B]I think if swimming was a team sport we'd all be playing water polo.

I don't think that swimming is a team sport in any way,


Swimming is a team sport?? I didn't get the memo. I never thought that swimming is a team sport.

cinc3100
June 10th, 2005, 12:09 AM
Well, Gary Hall Sr may not be all that innocent. His father in law Charles Keating was sent to prison for defrauding thousands of senior citizens for the Lincoln Savings scandal . Gary Hall Sr and Charles Keating's other son-in laws didn't face charges but it has not been proven one way or another how involved they were with the family business. Gary Hall Jr is allright as far as I'm concern. And swimming is mainly an indivdual sport rather than a team sport. Only a handful of relays are a group effort,most events you swim against other people and the clock.

SwiminONandON
June 10th, 2005, 10:09 AM
I like Gary Hall until Athens. I didn't have a problem with him until the whole relay debacle. I'm sorry but if I'm coaching the team I'm putting the four fastest athletes on the relay wether they technically qualified or not. Phelps was on fire in Athens he deserved to be on that relay.

But what really pissed me off was that he didn't go to one night of finals (which was required for all the swimmers to attend if they were not swimming) and instead he went off to one of the islands.

Swimming isn't exactly a team sport. But when you are swimming at the Olympics you are (like it or not) part of the US Olympic swim team and you are representing your country.

He's a phenomenal athelte and much of his episodes I did and do find humerous. I also think he's a big jerk.

EyeoreSAM
June 10th, 2005, 11:00 AM
I think that he brings attention to the sport which is good. I just like the flair that he has and the confidence that he displays. He's fast and he sure is fun to watch. He is a showman and I think this got a lot more people to watch.

aquageek
June 10th, 2005, 11:39 AM
Jerk is a pretty strong word. The guy has broght more press and attention to swimming than anyone else in decades. He's charismatic and one heck of a hard trainer. He's also quite the ambassador for diabetes. And, he promotes swimming on his own although he apparently now does commercials for the worst shaving cream ever invented.

I'll take his warts along with his good deeds. We need more flambouyant characters like Hall in swimming.

Seagurl51
June 10th, 2005, 12:23 PM
I think that he is an amazing showman, fantastic swimmer, and I agree a huge asset in the fight against diabetes. He most certainly does attract an audience with his ostentatiousness. However, since he is in the public eye he needs to make to sure that he conveys a good message about swimming. If everyone thinks that all swimmers are showy, they may ignore it even more. While sometimes I think he walks the line in cockiness, and occasionally slips to the other side, I don't think he's crossed it entirely just yet.

Blue Horn
June 10th, 2005, 12:36 PM
He makes swimming fun and he has fun. He may talk the talk, but he backs it up and walks the walk.

You people have no idea what Hall is really like. He may or may not be a jerk, but you certainly can't tell from seeing less than 1% of his life. What about all that he did for the other swimmers he helped out in the Race Club or people with diabetes. The thing is that he is fun to watch, he is a GREAT swimmer and he is a huge benefit to the sport. He derseves our respect for his hard work and dedication. I really don't get all the bashing.

Has anyone here ever made a mistake or acted imaturely? I know that I have, but those few moments do not define me or my life.

Hook'em
Blue

Tom Ellison
June 10th, 2005, 12:37 PM
"But what really pi--ed me off was that he didn't go to one night of finals (which was required for all the swimmers to attend if they were not swimming) and instead he went off to one of the islands. " Heather has a good point here!

Having said that...That may have been a jerk thing to do to other USA team members....but the good he has brought to swimming and his help fighting diabetes...still puts him high regard with me....

SwiminONandON
June 10th, 2005, 12:45 PM
I never met to say or imply that he hasn't done good things for swimming, but I also must say that most of my friends that aren't in the know refer to him as the jerk with the fluffy hair.

He absolutely backs up his attitude (minus the 100 free debacle in Athens). I think for the most part his teammates like him and repsect his talent and he has done good things for USA Swimming.

Sure we all have our moments and I wouldn't judge anyone based off of what they did for a few minutes once. He was/is great to watch. I laugh while watching him.

nkace
June 10th, 2005, 03:23 PM
I would have to say that Gary Hall is not just an athlete but a performer. The rivalry between the U.S. & Australia is not just hype & I think he fed off that. I mean look at the Red Sox & the Yankees. So he's a show off, big deal, he's at the olympics for crying out loud.

newmastersswimmer
June 10th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Flyers are alcoholics posted by SwiminOnandOn


Maybe that's why I have trouble remembering my college years then?....Are there any other bad habbits flyer's tend to have?....I can't seem to remember.


Newmastersswimmer

SwiminONandON
June 10th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Depending on who you ask flyers tend to be attention whores too ...

Oh, and flyers are simply the coolest.

uscmaria
June 10th, 2005, 06:43 PM
I was in Athens with Gary and know first hand that his absence during one night of finals had nothing to do with lack of TEAM, but everything to do with the time he needed to refocus before the 50, the one event he had to best represent his TEAM and his COUNTRY. As far as the show he puts on before his races - this is his mental game, and as swimmers we should all know there are some things that pump us up. For Gary, it's shadowboxing. For others, it's spitting in their opponents lane (Amy Van Dyken, Alex Popov, Jason Lezak, just to name a few). I'd say shadow boxing is a lot less JERK-like than that.

He also is a big TEAM player when it comes to working with diabetes. Aside from showing thousands of children and adults that you don't have to go blind or lose a limb by age 40 - that you can actually live a normal, or supernormal life - he also raised a ton of money at his first annual Circle of Champions bruncheon held in Miami last December. This year he hopes to double it.

His Team Race Club is the best thing that has happened to swimming in a long time. The funding his foundation provides for elite swimmers from all over the world to come to Islamorada, Florida can't even be matched. Now he has created camps to allow swimmers from all levels take part on this TEAM, in which part of that money will go straight back to paying for more elite swimmers to have the opportunity to keep swimming.

I say Gary is an inspiration and probably the best thing that's ever happened for the promotion of swimming.

newmastersswimmer
June 11th, 2005, 07:29 AM
I just wanted to chime in and say that I am also a big fan of Gary's for all the reasons that have been stated on this thread. I also thought it was cool to see him posing for pictures with many of the masters swimmers at Ft. Lauderdale (and thier families). He was shaking hands with everyone and wishing people good luck on thier swims.....Too bad he didn't swim though b/c I would have loved to have seen him compete first hand.....If I remember correctly, he and some of the members of the race club did compete in Indianapolis last year (from what I read on this board)....but that was before I started swimming again and so I missed it......It was was also very cool to see him not only make the Olympic team again, but win another gold medal!......I say Kudos to Gary Hall!!


Newmastersswimmer

uscmaria
June 11th, 2005, 11:03 AM
Gary will be swimming in the Edmonton Masters Worlds in July and also in Mission Viejo Nationals in August. As part of the Race Club, I know we all had a lot of fun at Ft. Lauderdale watching some pretty old records fall and talking to everyone...

craiglll@yahoo.com
June 11th, 2005, 12:34 PM
One of the main reasons swimmers didn't get a lot of endorsements was because they didn't know hosw to promote themselves. Now Gary Hall, Jr. does & he gets bad labels from swimmers. You can' thave it both ways. Many peole said the same thing about some of the female swimmers after Sydney. If we bad mouth our standouts what does that say about the swimming population as a group?

swimrat
June 11th, 2005, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by tjrpatt
[QUOTE]Originally posted by swimrat
[B]I think if swimming was a team sport we'd all be playing water polo.

I don't think that swimming is a team sport in any way,


Swimming is a team sport?? I didn't get the memo. I never thought that swimming is a team sport.

I didn't say it was a team sport. Someone in the post above me did. I don't think swimming is a team sport at all.

geochuck
June 11th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Does it really pay to have sponsors. My best sponsor gave me lots of money until - 1966 Dow Brewery destroys 4,546,000 litres of beer after 16 people die in Quebec City area; 1 million gallons go down the drain.

knelson
June 11th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
If I remember correctly, he and some of the members of the race club did compete in Indianapolis last year

Yes, that's true. Here's the funniest thing about that. Gary was third in the 50 free behind Sabir Muhammad and Aaron Ciarla. So, Gary placed third at Masters Nationals and first at the Olympics. Now what does that tell you about the level of competition in Masters swimming? ;)

By the way, I always thought Gary came across as a jerk and I think his actions at Athens were pretty childish. But I have to say he and the other Race Club swimmers at Indy last year went out of there way to talk to the other competitors and made a very positive impression. I saw Gary on deck again this year and once again he was very friendly and talked to anyone who introduced themselves.

breastroker
June 12th, 2005, 11:01 AM
uscmaria

Maria,
Let me welcome you to Masters swimming. I hope you can swim at our Long Course nationals in August, down the freeway at Mission Viejo.

Just remember what Masters swimmers are " Just like 8 year olds but with credit cards":D

And we allow booze on deck but no smoking!!!!

I always smile when I see the hard working meet officials sneaking out of the pool area to smoke:cool:

White Buffalo
June 13th, 2005, 11:41 AM
Gary Hall Jr defines everything that is wrong with society and swimming and it is difficult to stomach individuals posting praise for him. Let us look at the data:

Gary went to UT and went 1.33+ 200 free as a freshman, but dropped out and went back home to Arizona! There is no questioning his talent and what he did at the 1996 and 2000 Olympics. Whether injecting insulin for his diabetes gives him a metabolic advanatage, especially as he ages, is best left for another "thread".

However, how he conducted himself at the 2004 Olympics was disgraceful! Again, let us carefully look at the accurate data:

1) He did not get top two in the 100 freestyle at the Olympic trials and did not earn to swim the individual race! The rule was the top two finishers were automatically placed on the 400 freestyle relay and the next 4 swam for the final two places if they hit a certain time! Phelps was the wildcard since he was the National Champion in this event as I recall.
2) Men's Head coach Ed Reese set up specific guidelines as to what the remaining 4 individuals had to go in the morning relay, 48 something. Gary again had a second chance at getting on the relay and again failed whereas Neal Walker hit the time.
3) However, my judgment is Gary Sr. has failed at teaching his son personal accountable and so why should the rules apply to Gary Jr. even though he failed twice, he should be entitled to be on the relay!
4) Ian Crocker was sick and the relay performed poorly with Phelps on it. Gary Jr. violated the conduct code and was not present to support his country, his team and his teammates that night as it is mandatory that all members of the team attend the evening sessions!
5) Gary Jr. was held accountable and fined for breaking his covenant regarding the rules and requirements to be on the USA Olympic swimming team!
6) Gary Jr. badmouths Eddie and anyone and everyone with his excuses and what he would have done after failing twice!

My only regret is that Duje did not beat him in the 50. The beauty about swimming is that it is an objective sport, not subject to the subjective and political nature of diving, gymnastics, etc. This has been eroded recently with the poor handling of relay members, especially by Richard Quick. Hindsight is always 20- 20 and I am certain that Eddie, Mark Schubert and Bob Bowman had no idea that Crocker would swim so poorly. However, in hindsight, keeping Gary Jr. off the relay after his failing to earn his way on it twice, his embarrassing behavior afterwards by a grown man and his self justification along with his father's support is symbolic of the victim and "self-entitlement" behavior prevalent in our society today! One thing is for cetain in my opinion: 21+ in the 50 and the inability to break 49 in the 100 demonstrates that no matter how much talent one is, they still have to have background!Maybe Gary Jr. out to take a look at that shadow, since he has choosen not to train properly for the 100 and go 47+!

geochuck
June 13th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Gary Hall,

Lets not be critical of a great swimmer. I don't like him and who are we to say why he does these things, but we all, even Gary Hall have the right to do what we want. When I was swimming the papers wrote some nasty stuff about me. But I had my own reasons why I did not train the way everyone thought I should. When you live in the shadow of someone great it is hard to live up to everyone elses desires.

White Buffalo
June 13th, 2005, 12:01 PM
Geochuck:

I hear you identifying with Gary Jr. based upon your own personal experience. Please do not lose the theme of what I am saying which is merely the following:

He did not earn his way on the relay, broke team rules and was held accountable!

Training is a personal matter. The afforementioned is when others hold one personally accountable. Again, my judgment is his behavior is a disagrace to United States Swimming based upon his actions and inactions. If he feels he lives in the shadow of his father, there are plenty of world class psychiatrists he can see!
WB

TheGoodSmith
June 13th, 2005, 12:03 PM
Fact of life:

Some great swimmers (and athletes) are great people as well.

Some great swimmers (and athletes) are a real egotistical pain in the ass to deal with.

Just because a swimmer is great doesn't mean we can't praise or criticize them.


John Smith

aquageek
June 13th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by White Buffalo
Gary Hall Jr defines everything that is wrong with society and swimming and it is difficult to stomach individuals posting praise for him.

You gotta be kidding, Hall is indicative of society's problems? Have you watched TV lately? I can think of a few worse things he could have done. We get one flambouyant swimming personality in a generation and now he's the poster boy for society's ills? Oh, and maybe we shouldn't let him inject himself with insulin for a few weeks before and after meets. And, if you are an asthmatic stay off the bronchodilators.

Then, you question his training. My goodness, how many gold medals does he need to have before you think he's a good swimmer? Shaq can't make a freethrow, he sucks too.

White Buffalo
June 13th, 2005, 12:31 PM
Geek:
What is your point? He should be able to do what he wants to do? I have stated my belief, we live in a society that lacks personal accountablility and believes in entitlement= Gary Hall Jr. State your belief.
WB

PS- There is now a surgical procedure pioneered in Houston/Miami that eliminates the need to inject insulin! Again, try not to lead with your chin!

uscmaria
June 13th, 2005, 12:33 PM
To White Buffalo:

I'm glad that someone already mentioned the absurdity of you suggesting that Diabetes is an asset to Gary's performance...if you knew anything at all about the disease you wouldn't make a comment as ignorant as this. You would also know that Type I diabetes is the reason that Gary has chosen to only swim the 50 free, as swimming any longer distances would be a hazard in keeping his blood sugar levels in check, both in training and in serious competition.

As far as him being such a failure twice in Athens - well, your definition of failing is a little off. That's all...my mother always taught me if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

It just always amuses me that the people with little or no knowledge of Type I diabetes claims that Gary uses this as a crutch. Come on...!!

White Buffalo
June 13th, 2005, 12:37 PM
USCMaria:
Since I am so ignorant about Type I diabetes, educate me about the cell transplant with the pancreas that kick starts the body producing its own insulin and emiliminates the need for injections... Maybe the first woman to receive this, successfully, that I have met was just a dream I had?

geochuck
June 13th, 2005, 12:40 PM
WB

I guess everyone who does not win 5 gold medals at the Olympics is a failure, but the great thing about it, is that everyone can have their opinions even wrong ones.

BillS
June 13th, 2005, 12:41 PM
I have two brothers and a father with Type I (juvenile onset) diabetes. One brother is a dedicated triathlete who completed the Ironman in Hawaii a couple of years ago when he turned 40. He got diabetes in his 20's, and told me one time that he has never once felt 100% while working out since getting it. Aside from the hassles of the constant blood sugar monitoring and insulin shots, or the fact that it will reduce his life expectancy significantly, or the horrific consequences as he ages, think about that for a minute -- not ONCE has he felt like he did.

I have nothing but respect for any athlete competing at any level with diabetes.

Support stem cell research.

White Buffalo
June 13th, 2005, 12:42 PM
USCMARIA:

PS- I said insulin injections are an athletic advantage, not diabetes, so next time work on your reading skills!

geochuck
June 13th, 2005, 12:44 PM
Every one who is waiting for this operation sometimes die before they receive it, My niece died two days before they where to do it.

Tom Ellison
June 13th, 2005, 12:48 PM
WB Writes: "and it is difficult to stomach individuals posting praise for him. "

My post with respect to Gary Hall Jr. was dead on. I did not like or agree with his missing the night race. My understanding is that he got hammered for that, paid his dues and went on.

As to his contributions to swimming and diabetes, I think Gary get very high marks....They guy is somewhat of a ham, a tad quirky and has a healthy ego....but he also has a pile of Olympic Medals and a history of giving his time to help others....If you cannot stomach that....the local drug store sells Pepto Bismal....

aquageek
June 13th, 2005, 12:48 PM
buffalo:

Talk about leading with your chin. There are millions of diabetics out there and you make some hokey pokey claim that Hall Jr is somehow negligent in not getting a pancreas transplant or some other "surgical procedure" in order to hold onto an athletic advantage. Let me assure you that the moment either of your allegations get FDA approval for widespread use the line for them will be longer than you can imagine.

I think Hall goofed at Athens but I don't think I'll judge his entire character by one slip up. Nor will I take that to mean he's the cause of all society's problems.

I heard being an amputee is also and advantage as you don't have to carry around that extra arm or leg weight while swimming. I've seen a few absurd claims on this forum (mostly mine) but alleging some sort of athletic advantage due to diabetes is just about the stupidest one yet. Why don't you ask the family of George Mikan (who died a couple of weeks ago) about all the benefits he saw of diabetes.

gull
June 13th, 2005, 12:49 PM
I don't see how the existence of islet cell transplantation, an investigational procedure, has any bearing on Gary Hall's integrity. And I don't believe I've ever heard anyone describe an insulin-dependent Type I diabetic as metabolically advantaged.

TheGoodSmith
June 13th, 2005, 01:02 PM
I believe you guys are missing the point of White Buffalo's comments..... agree or disagree....

He is saying that Insulin injections are advantageous, not diabetes.

I believe we all know that insulin is a means of building muscle.


This is one great heated argument. I'm loving it.


John Smith

uscmaria
June 13th, 2005, 01:04 PM
WB:

I commend the woman that was successful in her pancreatic cell transplant surgery; and yes, I am familiar with many new treatments and procedures that are coming out in order to find a cure for the disease. But that's just it: so far, these don't work for everyone and are still in initial stages. Gary is working hard to support and fund this research.

Kudos to BillS and the support to all people and athletes living successfully with diabetes.

Support stem cell research.

geochuck
June 13th, 2005, 01:05 PM
All the muscle you have is of no use if you can't workout enough.

uscmaria
June 13th, 2005, 01:06 PM
Yeah, insulin injections to the average person with a normal functioning pancreas would be advantageous, but throw in the body of a diabetic and it is not.

Tom Ellison
June 13th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Support stem cell research
Was that a political jab? What does that statement have to do with this topic....?

aquageek
June 13th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I sincerely doubt you could find many diabetics who would prefer a life of insulin dependence due to the alleged muscle building it provides over a life without diabetes.

There is a 6 year old girl with a pump on our swim team. Maybe we should disqualify her because of all the advantages her life as a diabetic affords her, including the wonders of constant insulin injections.

uscmaria
June 13th, 2005, 01:12 PM
It wasn't meant as a political jab, only that stem cell research is the key to finding a cure for diabetes and many other things (autoimmune, cancer...). I apologize if that offended you...

gull
June 13th, 2005, 01:20 PM
Insulin injections certainly are "advantageous" to the Type I diabetic--without them, they develop ketoacidosis, lapse into a coma, and die. Muscle building? Give me a break.

geochuck
June 13th, 2005, 01:21 PM
I have been a diabetic, have had high blood pressure and mono. They found this out when I was 18, I consider myself fortunate because it was type two Dia... I have had to deal with these things for a long time. I never told anyone about these problems and was harrassed by our national coaches newspapers and cursed by team mates. I understand what Gary goes through.

I have done crazy stuf in the past but I loved to compete and tried to do the best with what I had.

TheGoodSmith
June 13th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Gull80,

I'm sorry to disagree, but Insulin actually is advantageous to muscle growth. It's an interesting topic.... with the use of IGF-1 and all.

Note: insulin has been used by athletes in the past percisely for its advantage..... Now.... it may shorten your life span in the end.


John Smith

gull
June 13th, 2005, 01:45 PM
So the argument is that Gary Hall is gaining an advantage from his Type I diabetes because his pancreas no longer manufactures insulin and he requires replacement therapy? I guess every cloud really does have a silver lining.

TheGoodSmith
June 13th, 2005, 02:24 PM
Hard to tell what point White Buffalo was emphasizing the most but you have to admit the thread certainly makes for a great argument.

Well, not being in the medical field, I have no idea if Gary's insulin shots helped him get bigger or stronger than he would have been without them. (Although, he's definitely a big guy.) I guess that's all secondary and unprovable in the end anyway.

His persona seems to be the primary issue at stake with most people. I'll tell you flat out, if I was Lezak, Phelps or Neil Walker, I'd have been pissed as **** at him in Athens. You don't need divisive team issues and seflish whining by one individual when you are facing the best competition in the world. It's a friggen war in that 400 free relay every 4 years and don't ever forget it. Losing to the Aussies initially in this event was beyond painful and beyond an embarassment. It was horrifying not winning in 2000 and again in 2004. It was the last America's cup event of the Olympics. You can't have peripheral crap and bitching going on in the background.

You swim for your country on National team relays and Olympic relays.... No one is above it........... you don't complain publicly while the whole event is going on either...... Note: Phelps seemed to grasp this concept quite nobly and easily........ I have to be honest with you, I was not impressed with Gary not showing up in the evening to watch his teamates. Unless he was in the hospital there really is no legitmate excuse for his behavior, and it's too bad as he is certainly one talented and strong 50 freestyler.

PS - I would have thought that given Gary's persona he'd have done the Barbasol shaving commercial Joe Namath style (a la 1960s) instead.... :-)


John Smith

SwiminONandON
June 13th, 2005, 03:04 PM
In talking about it Phelps said he and Gary agreed to disagree.

I'd all but guarantee that Gary would rather not have diabetes than have it and gain some sort of advantage from the insulin shots. Keep in mind that he was diagnosed between the 00 Olympics and the 04 - it's not like he was an average swimmer than suddenly became amazing b/c he started on insulin. He was darn good before his diagnosis and more impressively darn good after.

All that said it is pretty sad that a 19 year old was more mature than he was ... he whined that Michael didn't earn his relay spot, well neither did he.

ande
June 13th, 2005, 03:26 PM
OK I'll make a few points in this thread.

first of all, swimming superstars like phelps, amanda, and natalie have put the squeeze on the middle class elite swimmers, because after the superstars are paid, there isn't much left in sponsors budget's for the rest. So the middle class is getting paid less, or dropped.

So if gary hall and his handlers can get him a gig with barbasol, you go gary. If I was an advertiser, I would be a little leary of Gary because he does have a a mind and a mouth, a history of saying and doing not-so-bright things. Like the telling the aussies they were gonna get smashed like guitars. DON'T Rile your competition, don't give them another reason to want to beat you. It might be the one they needed.

Next, Gary Hall is one of the most talented human swimmers on this planet. For years he's gotten away with barely training and yet swimming extremely fast. If he trains he'll probably make the 2008 US Olympic squad.

The shame about gary, is because of his training ethic or lack there of, I believe he left a lot of potential on the table. If he trained as hard as most other elite US sprinters, he probably would hold the record in the 50 and 100 free. He swam one of the fastest ever American 100 free legs on a relay 47 point something. Maybe he'll kick himself when he's 40 and it's too late.

I do believe that Gary trained fairly hard under mike bottom and that Mike Bottom is an excellent sprint coach.

It's also a shame Gary didn't step up to the challenge to secure a berth on the olympic relay that night, he needed to go 48 point something and didn't . Neil Walker did. Lezak did.

It's a shame he bad mouthed the situation, blamed those for the decision, and didn't show up to support his team mates.

On another point, it's a shame Ian led off the US's 4 x 100 free relay at the olympics. Ian would have been much faster from a flying start, his swim might have seemed a little off but not by a full second. It's also a shame Ian got sick and coaches didn't know he was that off. On an average day he'd be good for a 48 low split.

Ande



Originally posted by White Buffalo
Gary Hall Jr defines everything that is wrong with society and swimming and it is difficult to stomach individuals posting praise for him. Let us look at the data:

Gary went to UT and went 1.33+ 200 free as a freshman, but dropped out and went back home to Arizona! There is no questioning his talent and what he did at the 1996 and 2000 Olympics. Whether injecting insulin for his diabetes gives him a metabolic advanatage, especially as he ages, is best left for another "thread".

However, how he conducted himself at the 2004 Olympics was disgraceful! Again, let us carefully look at the accurate data:

1) He did not get top two in the 100 freestyle at the Olympic trials and did not earn to swim the individual race! The rule was the top two finishers were automatically placed on the 400 freestyle relay and the next 4 swam for the final two places if they hit a certain time! Phelps was the wildcard since he was the National Champion in this event as I recall.
2) Men's Head coach Ed Reese set up specific guidelines as to what the remaining 4 individuals had to go in the morning relay, 48 something. Gary again had a second chance at getting on the relay and again failed whereas Neal Walker hit the time.
3) However, my judgment is Gary Sr. has failed at teaching his son personal accountable and so why should the rules apply to Gary Jr. even though he failed twice, he should be entitled to be on the relay!
4) Ian Crocker was sick and the relay performed poorly with Phelps on it. Gary Jr. violated the conduct code and was not present to support his country, his team and his teammates that night as it is mandatory that all members of the team attend the evening sessions!
5) Gary Jr. was held accountable and fined for breaking his covenant regarding the rules and requirements to be on the USA Olympic swimming team!
6) Gary Jr. badmouths Eddie and anyone and everyone with his excuses and what he would have done after failing twice!

My only regret is that Duje did not beat him in the 50. The beauty about swimming is that it is an objective sport, not subject to the subjective and political nature of diving, gymnastics, etc. This has been eroded recently with the poor handling of relay members, especially by Richard Quick. Hindsight is always 20- 20 and I am certain that Eddie, Mark Schubert and Bob Bowman had no idea that Crocker would swim so poorly. However, in hindsight, keeping Gary Jr. off the relay after his failing to earn his way on it twice, his embarrassing behavior afterwards by a grown man and his self justification along with his father's support is symbolic of the victim and "self-entitlement" behavior prevalent in our society today! One thing is for cetain in my opinion: 21+ in the 50 and the inability to break 49 in the 100 demonstrates that no matter how much talent one is, they still have to have background!Maybe Gary Jr. out to take a look at that shadow, since he has choosen not to train properly for the 100 and go 47+!

Sam Perry
June 13th, 2005, 06:44 PM
Ande,

Have you seen Gary train since he left Austin in 1996? I watched the entire group train here in Phoenix in 2000. I can assure you they trained (and raced) their butts off.

Is he training as much as Phelps? Obviously not. But to make a statement that he barely trains is a bit much unless you travel to Miami and watch him yourself. I honestly haven't seen him train since 2000, but he does something right.

It may not always be in the pool, I believe the 50 free requires more than just swimming ability. It seems to me the best athletes are the sprinters. If you don't agree with me, think of the distance guy. Does he do it because he wants to or does he do it because he can't sprint as fast as the sprinters.

Call me a whimp, but I would choose the 50 free over any other event to specialize in all day long!

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 10:09 AM
"Does he do it because he wants to or does he do it because he can't sprint as fast as the sprinters. "

Good question Sam! Conversely, do the sprinters swim sprint events because they can't take the grind of the mile or beat the distance guys?

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 10:17 AM
Tom

It may not be too complicated. I changed from middle distance swimming, 200, 440, 1 mile (which I won all the time) to sprinting because I could not train more than 500 yards hard without going unconcious, in fact out cold after swimming 200 yards in my first 440 after being diagnosed diabetic.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 10:23 AM
Sam,

If you compared Gary's training to someone like say Neil Walker...... you'd be surprised at the differences. Trust me, I've seen Neil train in Austin. It's jaw dropping.

Ande's not saying Gary doesn't do any training or has never done any hard training in his life. He's saying he generally doesn't do as much training as his competitors....... especially in the water.

The Raz (Ande) is actually "dead on" in many of his comments.

As far as the 50 free is concerned, I personally enjoy swimming it now as an old man. It's amusing and kind of pathetic to see old people sprint all out hard...... :-) But to be totally honest with you...... The 50 free is basically a controlled accident. There are a few guys that can truly dominate the event like Mr. Bisquet at NCAAs...... I'd bet my house that if you swam that same heat at Athens Olympics 4 times over 4 days you'd have at leat 3 different winners. You can't say that about the other events.

Truth be known....... events 100 and above usually carry more respect from a training perspective at Sr. Nationals. The 50 is a great event with an egomanical approach, but its still somewhat a novelty when compared to REAL training for 100s and above.


John Smith

valhallan
June 14th, 2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
The 50 free is basically a controlled accident.




That's priceless.

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 10:58 AM
You have to be a skilled swimmer and apply the principle of POWER SWIMMING to win a 50 and it is no accident.

gull
June 14th, 2005, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by geochuck
I changed from middle distance swimming, 200, 440, 1 mile (which I won all the time) to sprinting because I could not train more than 500 yards hard without going unconcious, in fact out cold after swimming 200 yards in my first 440 after being diagnosed diabetic.

Then, of course, you began experiencing the performance-enhancing effects of insulin, right?

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 11:05 AM
Don't get the hair on your back ruffled.

Hey, I love the 50 free. I swim it occasionally myself even as an old man...... But the truth is ..... the 50 free is best be described as.... "controlled bizerk". It's raw speed and panic all balled up in ego with a touch of self control. The guy who flinches at any point in the races loses.

The 50 free is more a function of attitude than other events which rely on a significantly more amount of pool time training.

I guess it comes down to your definition of training and being in shape...... is it aerobic or anaerobic.


John Smith

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by gull80
Then, of course, you began experiencing the performance-enhancing effects of insulin, right? Unfortunately or not? I am type 2 no insulin, just glyburide and metformin.

valhallan
June 14th, 2005, 11:07 AM
That's very true George. The 50 is a specialty event which involves great technique, hair trigger starts, and lightning touch finishes.... aside from extreme conditioning.

I think Mr. Smith was implying that when the race comes down to the hundreths, if not thousandths of a second.....and when a heat of ten are crashing into the wall at the same time,.... it's essentially a crap shoot to see who touched out who.

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Don't get the hair on your back ruffled.
is it aerobic or anaerobic. John Smith I call it anti-aerobic.

gull
June 14th, 2005, 11:10 AM
I'd consider it fortunate that you're a Type II. Type I diabetics (like Gary Hall) have a much higher risk of retinopathy (leading to blindness), nephropathy (leading to renal failure), peripheral vascular disease (leading to amputations), and premature heart disease.

aquageek
June 14th, 2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by gull80
I'd consider it fortunate that you're a Type II. Type I diabetics (like Gary Hall) have a much higher risk of retinopathy (leading to blindness), nephropathy (leading to renal failure), peripheral vascular disease (leading to amputations), and premature heart disease.

gull:

Give me a break! Don't you realize these aren't potential complications of diabetes, they are added benefits of getting to take the wildly popular performance enhancing drug insulin. GET WITH THE PROGRAM!

gull
June 14th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Actually I was considering the Race Club's Masters swim camp at Islamorada, but now I'm afraid they'll pump me full of insulin on the way to the weight room. On the other hand, since Hall barely trains, it might be a nice vacation.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Question:

Are you saying athletes that inject insulin that do not have diabetes fail to gain a metabolic advantage?

Or, are you saying that diabetics that inject insulin fail to gain a metabolic advantage?

Or are you saying there is no performance enhancing advantage to insulin for anyone what so ever?


John Smith

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 11:56 AM
gull80 and geochuck,
Either one of you an MD?

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by dead fish
gull80 and geochuck,
Either one of you an MD? No for geochuck but Gull80 is I believe.

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 12:04 PM
He should get his money back

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 12:05 PM
I want you sign on name. Excellent choice for Masters Swimming.


I will trade you my handle.... TheGoodSmith.... for DeadFish.



John Smith

gull
June 14th, 2005, 12:06 PM
I'm a cardiologist. As for Gary Hall (and other diabetics), I believe that insulin is performance-enhancing only to the extent that it keeps him alive, replacing what his pancreas can no longer provide.

ande
June 14th, 2005, 12:09 PM
I vaguely remember seeing a 20/20 type tv show on steriods and track. They were interviewing Victor Conte who, supposedly designed the doping program for Marion Jones.

I think the regimin was a cocktail of an anabolic steroid,
HGH, and i think insulin may have been the list too

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/06/24/MNG547B7Q91.DTL

ande

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Sorry goodsmith I'm a retired swimmer, now a dead fish.
why the name good smith?

aquageek
June 14th, 2005, 12:12 PM
good smith:

What I'm saying is that the assertion that a diabetic gains any advantage due to the fact that they have to inject insulin to stay alive is ludicrous.

I'm not a doctor, I'm not even very smart, but I do have common sense. I also like hot coffee but that's another thread.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Ande,

You are right. Insulin (IFG1), Human Growth Hormone, THG (The Cream), EPO....... They were all mentioned as having tremendous affects on performance.


Dead Fish..... I am the Good Smith because Paul Smith is the Evil Smith who beats me in my prized 50 freestyle.

Gull80..... honestly...... tell us more about Insulin if you are a doctor and leave Gary and diabetics out of it. Are you familiar with the positive effects of non diabetic athletes who use it to grow muscle strength..... i.e to cheat?


John Smith

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 12:20 PM
TheGoodSmith

All of the enhancement drugs won't help if you don't have ability.

ande
June 14th, 2005, 12:21 PM
here's the balco / marion jones/ doping SI article and insulin is in the list

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/more/12/02/jones.steroids.ap/

Ande

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 12:21 PM
But that wasn't the question.


John Smith

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 12:25 PM
Thanks Raz,

I stand corrected..... its not called "the cream"... its called "the clear". Sorry......

John Smith


Interview excerpt:
=============================

"Conte said he gave her a substance called "the clear," which was later determined to be THG, EPO and insulin. He also showed her how to inject hGH into her leg."

===============================

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by ande
here's the balco / marion jones/ doping SI article and insulin is in the list

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/more/12/02/jones.steroids.ap/

Ande Did she use these things, I don't think so, not guilty.... "... Mr. Conte is simply not credible. We challenge him to submit to the same lie detector procedure that Marion Jones passed."

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 12:31 PM
IGF and insulin is not the same drug.
IGF Is "insulin like"
However insulin is highly anabolic.
Have none of you heard of Sir Roger Bannister?
Being a type I didnít set him back much.
And that was in 1954.. treatment has come along way.

gull
June 14th, 2005, 12:33 PM
John, I think you need to differentiate the use of insulin in a Type I diabetic from a nondiabetic (say an athlete trying to gain some benefit) with normal insulin production. Type I diabetics under ordinary circumstances have difficulty regulating their blood sugars; Gary is training at an elite level, consequently the process is several orders of magnitude more complex. Mistakes can be disastrous (hypoglycemia leading to convulsions vs. hyperglycemia resulting in ketoacidosis). Suggesting that he can achieve a performance enhancing benefit (other than staying alive) from insulin indicates a lack of understanding of the disease.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Gull 80.... I am fully aware of the effects of diabetes. My mother is Type II.

My question to you was on non diabetics athletes use of insulin as well.

Geochuck...... wake up and smell the coffee dude. I suppose you think Flo Jo died of natural causes and Michelle Smith's urine was spiked by someone out to get her and cycling is a EPO clean.
Dude.... Victor is the real thing and he was way ahead of the agencies that test for drugs.

Dead Fish, thanks for clarifying the difference.


John Smith

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 12:46 PM
Michelle Smith was a NO ONE swimmer in Houston....then became the Gold Medal winner at the Olympics....Heck, from the looks of her pictures shortly before the Olympic Games they should have changed its name to Michael Smith.....and the fraud should give the medal back....IT WAS A CHEATER TO THE MAX THERE....

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Geochuck...... wake up and smell the coffee dude. I suppose you think Flo Jo died of natural causes and Michelle Smith's urine was spiked by someone out to get her and cycling is a EPO clean. John Smith Thanks the Tim Hortins Coffee is great, Thats right Flo Jo is not around, and just like Michelle Smith's explanation was the same as Ben Johnson, his drink was spiked. However testing for drugs etc in USA is very lax and if you use in the USA you will never be caught.

ande
June 14th, 2005, 01:01 PM
I believe many elite athletes have used performance enhancing drugs and most haven't been caught. They are driven by the mind set to succeed at any cost and since everyone is doing it, they should too.

In pro sports like baseball and football, there's a slight difference between being the best and being really great, but there's a gigantic difference in pay.

I met a fellow who was a pro cyclist in the late 1980's / early 1990's and I asked him,
"What percent of cyclists are dirty?"
He said, "All of them."

Ande

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 01:11 PM
"All of them."...except Lance of course....

gull
June 14th, 2005, 01:14 PM
I don't believe there's much interest in insulin among athletes (unless, of course, they're diabetic); insulin-like growth factor (which mediates the effects of growth hormone) is a different story.

The natural history and prognosis of Type I diabetes is very different from Type II.

uscmaria
June 14th, 2005, 01:17 PM
Here's an excerpt from Gary's doctor herself...a little explanation and excerpt from Athens to help clarify this argument. I'm putting the excerpt here but you can read the whole article at:

http://theraceclub.net/columns/index.html

Gary is more different than most, because he is slightly imperfect. His beta-cells no longer secrete insulin. Watching his blood sugar levels rise and fall with training and racing provides a window into his physiologic needs for fuel, and an understanding of the intense stress athletes face when they compete. Working with Gary has taught me how to treat all of my patients who exercise, whether it is by walking around the block in the evenings or training for and competing in triathalons. The same rules apply.
The most important principle I learned is that every rule can be wrong in a given individual. I thought I knew about exercise, that training would make muscles more sensitive to glucose and lower insulin requirements. It made sense. But in Gary's case, that rule doesn't always apply. When he trains intensely he needs more insulin, largely because his carbohydrate intake is so high at 4,000 to 5,000 calories per day, with 60% or so of his calories coming from carbohydrate. When he's training less hard, his caloric intake and percentage carbohydrate ingestion is markedly reduced. So his insulin requirements are less. Another reason his insulin requirements are higher during his intense training sessions is because of the catecholamine response to such heavy training. As a sprinter he doesn't do lots of slow long distance swimming; he does more intense episodes of training, which may be more physiologically stressful.
Gary's insulin requirements change if he is training once a day or twice a day or three times a day. They differ if he is doing more weight training than cardio or the other way around. Time spent training in the pool is different than time spent training on land. Calculating doses wrong and he's too low at night, a delayed effect of training, but giving too little insulin overnight results in fasting hyperglycemia and a bad workout the next day. An insulin pump might offer the fine tuning of basal rates that would better match his physiologic needs, but as a swimmer Gary can't stand the drag of the tape and infusion site on his skin against the water. So he has become a master at adjusting his insulin doses, using a multiple daily insulin injection regimen that is more complex and varied than almost any other patient I treat.
Most of the time this approach works; the frequent insulin dosing and the 10 or more times he tests his blood sugar levels each day keep his sugars under control and his A1C level less than 7%. Sometimes, as with all patients, it doesn't work as well and hopefully that doesn't coincide with race days. I wish it were easier to manage our patients with type 1 diabetes, but it isn't, not yet. Gary, like all my patients with diabetes, dreams of the day this disease is cured. I dream along with them...I'd like to be out of a job, at least a job of treating blood sugar levels.

uscmaria
June 14th, 2005, 01:21 PM
To John Smith:

"Gull 80.... I am fully aware of the effects of diabetes. My mother is Type II."

You may not be fully aware, because Type I and Type II are essentially two entirely different diseases. I'm not trying to critisize, just trying to shed light.

BillS
June 14th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Type I and athletic activity are a rough mix. My brother was hospitalized after an Ironman qualifier when his blood sugar got away from him. The newer insulins are faster acting, making regulating levels a little easier, but he still has to check himself regularly while competing and working out. I doubt Hall could swim a competitive time in the 500 if he had to stop after 300 or so, hang on the wall, stick his finger for a reading, and maybe take a shot or eat a Snickers bar to adjust his blood sugar, which is no doubt why he sticks to the sprints. I don't know exactly how many times my brother had to stop and check during the Ironman, but the whole family made him swear he would do it because, I dunno, we kind of objected to him lapsing into a coma and dying in the middle. I think it's incredible he was able to train hard enough to get to a level of fitness where he was able to complete it, much less actually managing to get through the event.

I spoke to the non-triathlete diabetic last night and mentioned this raging debate. He assured me that whatever impact insulin may have on the non-diabetic athlete, it does not help him do anything more than stay alive and watch his health degenerate.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 01:39 PM
Again, the question is not about Gary Hall or diabetics.

The question is simple. What are the positive effects of using insulin for a non diabetic athlete?

Gull80 you say.... " don't believe there's much interest in insulin among athletes "...... you are probably right about the general population of athletes at large. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the smaller percentage who do cheat.

USCmaria..... believe me, I am FULLY aware of the difference betwe Type I and Type II conditions. You don't have a diabetic mother without learning the whole story.

BillS - I believe Dead Fish already pointed out that Roger Bannister was a diabetic and succesfully competed in much longer events decades ago. The reason Gary doesn't swim the 200 free is because you really have to TRAIN for that event. He's too old to train for the 200 free.... believe me..... I know..... :-)


John Smith

gull
June 14th, 2005, 01:45 PM
I wasn't able to find much about insulin abuse among athletes in the recent medical literature--IGF, GH, epo, and of course anabolic steroids are well described, however. Insulin administered in any significant dose can be problematic because of the effect on blood sugar (even in a nondiabetic).

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 02:17 PM
Not surprising that you would "not find much about insulin abuse among athletes in the recent medical literature."

Athletes who use it are cheating..... they don't want it to be widely known..... if it was widely known, they'd move to something else..... :-)



John Smith

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 02:24 PM
Mr. Moose took HGH last summer to get ripped abs....Now he thinks he is Ralph....

Leonard Jansen
June 14th, 2005, 02:25 PM
From a 2001 article by the BBC:

"Insulin can help sportsmen in two ways.

Bodybuilders use insulin alongside anabolic steroids to build muscle - the steroids help create new muscle and insulin stops it from being broken down.

Sportsmen may be getting insulin on the black market

Insulin can also help athletes' stamina by providing then with "fuel" - glycogen, which stores carbohydrate energy - by taking insulin and glucose.

But insulin can be fatal if it takes so much sugar from the blood that the brain receives too little oxygen and energy.

The reason sportsmen may be tempted is that insulin is very difficult to spot in drug tests.

The only sure-fire way would be catching people red-handed with the drug

It disappears from the body in minutes, and there is no way to distinguish it from a person's own insulin."

From:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1480600.stm

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 02:49 PM
With all the Insulin talk I just went out and bought and ate a Maple Beaver Tail filled with whipped cream. Why use insulin to get glycogen when you can take Vitamin E.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 02:53 PM
I'm hoping a "Maple Beaver Tail" is some sort of food and not a kinky late night endeavor.


John smith

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 02:56 PM
It is a very large donut with maple frosting and filled with whipped cream. Loaded with sugar. There goes my sugar out of wack. Some people do think it is kinky.

ande
June 14th, 2005, 02:57 PM
i wonder if it would enhance an athletes performance to be injected with an epipen (a dose of adrenalin) right before a race?

http://www.epipen.com/

I wonder how fast people could swim if there was an anything goes division of swimming.

ande

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Anything goes Division..........


I'd use fins!



John Smith

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 03:06 PM
The East Germans used rectal air injection as you say anything goes...

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 03:08 PM
"I wonder how fast people could swim if there was an anything goes division of swimming. "


Heck, I'd be wondering how fast they would die!

Me too...
Hush up!

shoalsswimmer
June 14th, 2005, 03:13 PM
Maple Beaver Tails?

Rectal Air Injections?

I'm glad I started at the beginning of this thread and read it through. Man!

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 03:20 PM
If anything goes it levels the playing field.

ande
June 14th, 2005, 03:25 PM
ok almost anything goes, but
no fins, paddles, or swim suits that floated like neoprene wet suits.

swimmers could surgically alter their bodies like with webbing between fingers and toes or take any performance enhancing drug they choose in training or competition.

ande


Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Anything goes Division..........
I'd use fins!
John Smith

ande
June 14th, 2005, 03:26 PM
which made them float better.
Did they really do that?
what years?
eww

I think I'll pass on that

ande


Originally posted by geochuck
The East Germans used rectal air injection as you say anything goes...

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 03:27 PM
"If anything goes it levels the playing field. "


Hey Dead Fish...NO PUN intended....right?

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 03:27 PM
Had a friend who had webbed toes and fingers he could swim a good 50 free.

SwiminONandON
June 14th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Is there really anything stopping swimmers from getting webbed toes and fingers other than the sheer ick factor?

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 03:35 PM
"sheer ick factor" Gosh, I haven't heard that term used in a long time...

Kind of like.....oh heck...never mind.....

Leonard Jansen
June 14th, 2005, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by ande
which made them float better.
Did they really do that?
what years?
eww

I think I'll pass on that

ande

See my post on this page:
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3231&perpage=15&highlight=rectal&pagenumber=6

You'll need to scroll down a bit.

-LBJ

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 03:43 PM
Ande wrote: "I think I'll pass on that"
Gosh Ande, that is what they were doing.....
Oh, I get it, another PUN.....

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 03:46 PM
I was told that it was a F--t and a Myth

gull
June 14th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Not to change the subject, but if the question is whether athletes actually benefit from insulin (with or without anabolic steroids or growth hormone), I don't think use (or abuse) is proof of benefit. The debate began with a reference to Gary Hall and the performance enhancing benefit he may receive from his insulin injections (presumably taken without other banned substances). All of us nondiabetics enjoy the benefits of (legal) insulin on a daily basis.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Gull 80

Actually, I believe the discussion centered around not just his use of insulin but his overall conduct. I believe "White Bufalo" launched a nuclear weapon on this forum when he said this abut Gary Hall .....

1) He did not get top two in the 100 freestyle at the Olympic trials and did not earn to swim the individual race! The rule was the top two finishers were automatically placed on the 400 freestyle relay and the next 4 swam for the final two places if they hit a certain time! Phelps was the wildcard since he was the National Champion in this event as I recall.
2) Men's Head coach Ed Reese set up specific guidelines as to what the remaining 4 individuals had to go in the morning relay, 48 something. Gary again had a second chance at getting on the relay and again failed whereas Neal Walker hit the time.
3) However, my judgment is Gary Sr. has failed at teaching his son personal accountable and so why should the rules apply to Gary Jr. even though he failed twice, he should be entitled to be on the relay!
4) Ian Crocker was sick and the relay performed poorly with Phelps on it. Gary Jr. violated the conduct code and was not present to support his country, his team and his teammates that night as it is mandatory that all members of the team attend the evening sessions!
5) Gary Jr. was held accountable and fined for breaking his covenant regarding the rules and requirements to be on the USA Olympic swimming team!
6) Gary Jr. badmouths Eddie and anyone and everyone with his excuses and what he would have done after failing twice!

ande
June 14th, 2005, 04:03 PM
"the sheer ick factor" that's hilarious
how dedicated are you

frogs have webs, water turtles have webs, dogs have webs

if women get augmentations
why shouldn't swimmers get webs
most people would never notice or care

now the question is
where would you get the skin from?

a


Originally posted by SwiminONandON
Is there really anything stopping swimmers from getting webbed toes and fingers other than the sheer ick factor?

gull
June 14th, 2005, 04:11 PM
Actually, John, I meant to say "the insulin debate."

I'd still want him on my relay...

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 04:21 PM
I notice White Buffalo failed to mention any of Gary's "extra curricular" activities.

Maybe he was just being nice.


John Smith

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 04:22 PM
such as?

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 04:24 PM
John is probably talking about Gary doing his Cheech and Chong impersonation.....

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 04:25 PM
I believe that he tested positive for marijuana and was banned from competition for a short spell.


John Smith

ande
June 14th, 2005, 04:28 PM
does marijuana enhance performance?

ande


Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
I believe that he tested positive for marijuana and was banned from competition for a short spell.
John Smith

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 04:31 PM
"does marijuana enhance performance?"

Gee Ande, that depends on what you're doing!

uscmaria
June 14th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Are you kidding me? You're gonna bring up the marijuana issue when it happened almost ten years ago!? Yes, he was banned and he tested positive following Atlanta, which was "out of competition" and at the time, legal. They only made it illegal once Gary tested positive. So he served his time and now everybody likes to think of him as the Grateful Dead, potsmoking guy?

While we're on the subject of past mistakes, why don't we dig up a much more recent one and talk about Phelps' DUI...no one seems to have a problem with that.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Well, in terms of conduct, it doesn't sound too smart, especially when you're at his level and know you'll be tested for something eventually.


John smith

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 04:38 PM
Could we call smoking pot precooling.

Bobby
June 14th, 2005, 04:40 PM
Hello boys and girls what a thread you have here.
Is there a benefit from insulin for a type I diabetic? Yep life.
But the real question is: Are there any other benefits that a life sustaining hormone may have in addition to keeping an individual alive?

Body builders have messed around with insulin for decades, why?
Because it is a highly anabolic hormone, very dangerous, in the old days for all the reasons Gull has stated. With the easy access to glucose meters and the instant feedback many of those risks become reduced when used by some one who knows what they are doing. If glucose levels drop low drink a juice or soda, monitor just like a motivated type I. Using insulin as a weight control drug is an issue with teenage type I diabetic girls. Remember when insulin is missing glucagons is very active.

The problem is insulin is anabolic for almost all tissue. One can create obese rats with CVD just by using insulin injections and keeping calories the same. Iím sure the gull knows this, from his lab work in Med School.

Bottom line insulin is a storage hormone. It causes weight gain of both muscle and fat. In addition to driving glucose into the cells it also drives the essential amino acids into the cells. It slows down or stops fat burning and increases fat storage.

Is there a study to support the use of insulin in sports?
No and there never will be.

Remember the position on anabolic steroids by the AMCSM, NCAA, and NSCA.
Was that they didnít work to improve athletic performance. They held that official position until the late 80ís.

Meanwhile many athletes were using steroids without any results.
It wasnít until the official position changed that steroids began to work, oddly enough many athletes donít always believe what they are told by Doctors.

You will not see a study. The only information to go on is anecdotal evidence. And of course the brain and knowledge of a biochemist who is a master at putting it all together. Can you say Victor Conte.

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 04:53 PM
uscmaria FYI

GARY HALL, Jr. (USA) tested positive for marijuana on May 15 in Phoenix at a non-FINA sanctioned event. He was provisionally suspended by FINA until a hearing could be held following the assessment of his B sample (which also tested positive). This was Hall's second marijuana offense. The first came during the Atlanta Games and resulted in a warning. FINA added marijuana to its banned list just before the Atlanta Games, but the rule did not take effect until after the competition. Hall's three-month suspension was lifted on August 14 pending further investigation. Hall was ultimately suspended for three-months (November 9, 1998) by FINA but the previously served three months under the temporary suspension was deducted meaning he faced no further penalty. Eventually, Hall appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport to revoke FINA's decision. On May 31, 1999 the Court's decision to uphold FINA's ruling was handed down.

The court also fined Hall 10,000 Swiss francs (about $8,000) for appealing FINA's original decision. It is unlikely the fine will be paid since Hall was exercising his legal right.

White Buffalo
June 14th, 2005, 04:59 PM
USC:
Again, this was and is my point: Gary Hall Jr., who you defend and like which is your perrogative, lacks in personal accountability and has a sense of entitlement. Your defense of someone breaking the law and the competition rules enables such behavior just as his father did after he failed to show up and support his teammates at the Olympics. I guess he was resting and/or focusing on the 50 free 6 days later? And, I am certain individuals serving prison sentences for possession of less than one ounce would believe Jr. got punished and did not get off light?
It reminds me of when our Olympic swimmers were dismissed from the team and sent home in 1988 for a 'prank" at an establishment off site at the Olympics. In my opinion, Hall's behavior was more detrimental and egregious, but the coaching staff more lenient in 2004 by not sending him home immediately. I welcome you to correct me and search the web and find anywhere that Jr. and/or Sr. took responsibility for Jr.'s violating the conduct code, admitted wrong doing and did not engage in blaming and excuses.
The talent is undeniable and so is the lack of class. Up here in the north, we would let him swim in a frozen stream!
WB
PS- let me know about the web search. And, ask Jeremy Linn, the American record holder in the 100 breastroke who was kicked off The Race Club for smoking pot if he feels any hypocracy!

Fishgrrl
June 14th, 2005, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry...I have to jump in here. Does pot enhance sports performance??? LOL!

Anyone else out there ever smoke pot???? (please don't answer)

ANYONE I KNOW who has gotten stoned can barely organize a trip to the grocery store let alone break a world record!!!!!!

Heeeelllooooo....?????

Also....I'm sure I could go on and on about the demonization of marajuana, but I won't. I'll save that for another forum...

Oh and by the way, world class swimmers are human too! (i.e., sometimes they make mistakes and/or poor choices......)

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 05:11 PM
I don't think anyone on this thread has yet suggested that pot smoking is beneficial to athletic performance.

Remember the discussion was about conduct and use of insulin.


John Smith

Fishgrrl
June 14th, 2005, 05:14 PM
Thanks for the correction John Smith!

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Is it possible that he was not smoking pot, just around those smoking, similar to the Canadian snow boarder. At the winter Olympics.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 05:17 PM
Is it possible that Michael Jackson was just around young boys but didn't do anything to them?


John Smith

Tom Ellison
June 14th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Hey uscmaria...folks around here are equal opportunity slammers....when Phelps got his DUI, they pounded him pretty hard on these boards. Yes, even St. Michael got hammered here...

I personally could care less about Gary's hooch conviction....and for that matter, I thought his no show that night in Athens was uncool, rude and unwarranted. But, people are people and they make mistakes, do dumb things now and then....and unless a person kills someone...most mistakes should be forgiven....

Plus, Geek has a good thought on this issue... and that is....add all the good with all the junk Gary has brought to swimming Ö.andÖ. I'd say he is on the serious plus side of things....

ande
June 14th, 2005, 05:28 PM
or how angel martino claimed her positive steriod test occured because she had sex with her husband who was taking steriods.

was she born with those muscles?
http://hercules.gcsu.edu/~mmartino/Angel.html

a



Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Is it possible that Michael Jackson was just around young boys but didn't do anything to them?
John Smith

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Is it possible that Michael Jackson was just around young boys but didn't do anything to them?


John Smith He was not convicted nor did the Canadian lose his medal.

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 05:35 PM
Geochuck,


Neither was OJ.....

Dude, I have a lifetime supply of "wake up" pills I can mail you.

Just send me your address..... :-)


John Smith

SwiminONandON
June 14th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Would anything in these wake-up pills be considered banned?

TheGoodSmith
June 14th, 2005, 05:41 PM
Geochuck,

Won't matter if they're illegal if you don't get caught or convicted...... isn't that what you're saying?


John Smith

SwiminONandON
June 14th, 2005, 05:43 PM
Nah, I'm saying I'll give you my address if they aren't illegal .. hell I'll give you my address if they are ;)

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 05:48 PM
TheGoodSmith

Boy you believe everything cops say, I was a cop and I know anything goes so you can get a conviction. I still believe OJ innocent and somone slipped drugs in Ben Johnson water even though he admitted taking them. Flo Jo and Carl Lewis never took steroids they said they did not. Lance Armstrong never took steroids, he said so.

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 05:52 PM
WB you make a strong point. When Phelps was arrested he made the statement: ďI was taught to take full responsibility for my actionsĒ and he did.

If swimming is ever going to gain mass appeal in the public eye, the swimmers and swim community will have to act with class, set and expect a high standard of behavior. Of course eliminates most Masters Swimmers today.

Scream, fight, what have you behind closed doors, when you walk out you represent your nation, sport as well as yourself leave the battle behind closed doors. After all you choose to be there and play by the rules as written. Donít like the rules work to change them, if you choose disobedience be prepared to suffer the consequences. Gary seems to want it both ways, and those who defend his choices allow it to continue.

He plays at being a boxer, but the greatest boxer of our time took a stand and suffered much more than not being on a relay he didnít qualify for.

Maybe Gary can look to some of the class boxers of the past and use them as his role models.

No the denying the talent and effective training of Gary Hall for the 50. Just questioning the way the he handles himself.

ande
June 14th, 2005, 05:54 PM
don't forget to mention pro wrestling and the moon landings

ande


Originally posted by geochuck
TheGoodSmith

Boy you believe everything cops say, I was a cop and I know anything goes so you can get a conviction. I still believe OJ innocent and somone slipped drugs in Ben Johnson water even though he admitted taking them. Flo Jo and Carl Lewis never took steroids they said they did not. Lance Armstrong never took steroids, he said so.

dead fish
June 14th, 2005, 05:55 PM
Is it possible that he was not smoking pot, just around those smoking, similar to the Canadian snow boarder. At the winter Olympics.

A snow boarder around pot? no way dude

BillS
June 14th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Wow, I go swim for a couple of hours over the kunch hour and my inbox fills up with posts.

In the middle of my swim it occurred to me that if athletes were really using insulin, some dumb**s high school football player in Texas would have ripped off his diabetic dad's stash and done a Sunny von Bulow by now. I don't think there are a whole lot of folks messing with this stuff recreationally. At least I hope not.

geochuck
June 14th, 2005, 06:01 PM
If swimmers are to gain mass appeal they have to take drugs like those used by baseball players, football players and basketball players. Steroids, heroin, cocaine and drink lots of beer. Go to rehab and do it all over again.

BillS
June 14th, 2005, 06:06 PM
And the stoned snowboarder who didn't inhale, representing the Kingdom of Canada, was Ross Rabagliati. May he live in infamy.

newmastersswimmer
June 14th, 2005, 06:50 PM
does marijuana enhance performance? posted by The Razz

That's a very good question actually....I know that fishgrrl already said she didn't see how it could.......but I once knew a few people way back (other people now...cmmon!!) who would argue that point with Kari.....and I feel that this is a relevant side topic here...b/c if Insulin is a relevant topic....then why isn't pot?....I mean Gary (who is the center of the thread right) has been busted for pot smoking by Fina (and punished)....He chose to smoke Pot....He is taking insulin b/c he has too (for now anyways b/c he hasn't had any of the fancy medical procedures that would change that need for insulin as of yet). ...So how could the possible advantages assciated to Pot usage be any more or less relevant in this thread than that of insulin?

Personally, I think (from hearing what others have said
"only" now)...that pot smoking might be able to enhance one's ability in a distance swimming event (especially something like a 5 K open water swim for example)...b/c your mind is put in a state to ignore pain after smoking a sufficient amount of pot....and being stoned can help to put someone in a trance like (rhythmic) state which could also be advantageous for distance swimming (granted Gary is definitely not a distance swimmer though)....although you can't organize a grocery list when stoned,..."Supposedly" one can really focus on something repetitive and simple....like maintaining a constant efficient distance stroke....I can't verify this (or refute it)....but I accept that it is possible that pot smoking "could" provide certain advantages in certain situations.....that's all.


Newmastersswimmer

fatboy
June 14th, 2005, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
does marijuana enhance performance? posted by The Razz


Personally, I think (from hearing what others have said
"only" now)...that pot smoking might be able to enhance one's ability in a distance swimming event (especially something like a 5 K open water swim for example)...
Newmastersswimmer

And inhaling all that smoke has GOT to really help your endurance....

newmastersswimmer
June 14th, 2005, 10:30 PM
And inhaling all that smoke has GOT to really help your endurance.... posted by fatboy

I didn't say that smoking pot is advantageous in every way.....just "maybe" in some ways.....thats all I'm saying....You can find pros and cons associated to almost anything.....For example....Steroids may enhance atheletic performance in some ways...but then again steroids may cause you to drop dead of a heart attack.....You won't be performing too well atheletically after you're dead from a heart attack.......Smoking pot may enhance some aspects of some kinds of athletic endeavors in some ways....I was just pointed out some extra details on exactly how smokin pot can be advantageous in one particular kind of atheletic endeavor......Are you disagreeing with my assessment?



Newmastersswimmer

Matt S
June 15th, 2005, 06:15 PM
As interesting as this discussion has been, let us recall the original thread 11 screens ago. What do we think of Gray Hall and his new endorsement by, oh gosh, what the heck deal did he cut...oh yeah! Barbasol, "the worst shaving creme ever invented." (Aquageek, I laughed uncontrollably when I read that one.)

All the various slams of Gary Hall, and his behavior, miss what I think is his unappreciated genius. Just like Reggie Jackson in the 70s, he is the straw that stirs the drink. Dead fish has it exactly backwards. World class swimming is NOT going to gain in popularity by all our stars washing behind the ears, repeating pious media cliches that no one believes, and trying to be as uncontroversial as possible. What caused figure skating to take off and become a big time event outside of the Olympic Games? Here's a hint, it involved a device not normally seen on a skating rink, and happened outside of the arena, and not in it.

Please note, I agree that everyone making nice and not saying anything controversial is a MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE approach to winning meets and raising balanced human beings, and the fact that this is not the road to popularity says a lot more about our twisted popular culture than it says about swimming. But, back to Gary Hall...

When Gary formed the Race Club, he realized that swimming is an undercovered sport that was losing potential stars athletes to other sports, losing top flight college programs to other budgetary priorities, and that world class athletes could not stay in the sport long enough to reach their peak potential because there just wasn't enough money and support to keep more than a few involved. His solution was to harness his sometimes outrageous personality and the fame/notoriety he already gained. He created the team to give formerly retired athletes like Sabir Muhamed, and athletes that have been squeezed out of their National programs, like the UK sprinter, a place to swim. Gary puts himself and his team out as much as he can, and draws as much attention as possible. He then shows up at someone else's meet, like USMS Nationals or a regional USS meet, and shines the spot light on them. He and his world class compadres stay in swimming longer and achieve remarkable results. Local meets grow and get free publicity. Everyone in swimming wins. And, here's another aspect of the genius part, by being controversial, he has all of us typing our little fingers off and thinking about swimming, sprinting, performance enhancing substances vs. medicially indicated treatments for life threatening diseases, etc. etc.

So...some of us may not like his style or his attitude, and we are entitled to our opinions same as he is entitled to live his life as he choses within the bounds of the law and FINA regulations. But, every time we slam him for this pratfall or that publicity stunt, we ought to keep in mind some of this is coldly calculated to benefit our sport. Gary Hall, world class swimmer of historic significance, publicity impressario, I'll keep watching his act. He's the anchovies in the greek salad.

Matt

TheGoodSmith
June 15th, 2005, 06:26 PM
oh brother...........


John Smith

knelson
June 15th, 2005, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Matt S
He's the anchovies in the greek salad.

Yeah, see that settles it. I don't like anchovies either.

fatboy
June 15th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
And inhaling all that smoke has GOT to really help your endurance.... posted by fatboy

I didn't say that smoking pot is advantageous in every way.....just "maybe" in some ways.....thats all I'm saying....You can find pros and cons associated to almost anything.....For example....Steroids may enhance atheletic performance in some ways...but then again steroids may cause you to drop dead of a heart attack.....You won't be performing too well atheletically after you're dead from a heart attack.......Smoking pot may enhance some aspects of some kinds of athletic endeavors in some ways....I was just pointed out some extra details on exactly how smokin pot can be advantageous in one particular kind of atheletic endeavor......Are you disagreeing with my assessment?



Newmastersswimmer

I was just pointing out a rather obvious disadvantage. You may be right about it providing some advantage in the specific area you pointed out

knelson
June 16th, 2005, 02:38 AM
I don't know why it took me so long to notice it....but newmastersswimmer....has a rather unusual....writing style.....

:D

gull
June 16th, 2005, 10:04 AM
I thought anchovies were in ceasar salads, not greek salads.

Or are you trying to say that he doesn't fit?

Tom Ellison
June 16th, 2005, 10:33 AM
I LOVE anchovies...but only on pizza.....


CHOVIESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS RULE!

shoalsswimmer
June 16th, 2005, 11:13 AM
I think anchovies are an ingredient in Caesar dressing. There's a nice steak restaurant where I live that has what they call a "Greek tray" appetizer. It has meatballs, feta cheese, green onion stalks, Kalamata olives, cucumber spears and anchovies. Really good. Follow that up with a nice filet mignon and double Glenlivet on the rocks. Mmmmmmm!

Maybe Gary is also the meatball in the "greek tray."

newmastersswimmer
June 16th, 2005, 01:42 PM
I don't know why it took me so long to notice it....but newmastersswimmer....has a rather unusual....writing style..... posted by Knelson


Mr. Nelson,

There's a LOT of things I could say are a bit "unusual" about me in fact (putting it lightly so to speak)....or at least people (like my wife for example) have said so........but please knelson....perhaps you can elaborate a tad on that.....Your statement seems to almost suggest something in particular?


Newmastersswimmer


p.s.....all these culinary metaphors floating around here are starting to make me hungry!

Matt S
June 16th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Now we know why swimmers are fatter than runners! (See other discussion thread.) We all love to eat! Think about it. We look at why runners are so thin, and try to figure out why running appears to be more effective at reducing weight.

Shirley's hypothesis: swimming is MORE effective at keeping weight off because people who love to eat chose it to avoid looking like Dom Deluise. If you want to be a runner, man you better not be too hefty when you start because you will break you ankle and tear up your knee. But if you love to eat and hate to sweat (Let's see a show of hands from those of us who fit that profile. Thought so.), swimming is your sport.

AND, all that agility and body awareness that natural athletes have built up playing land based sports...GONE. If anything their slender &/or muscular builds make it HARDER for them to float easily, and we all know what happens when a novice swimmer tries to elevate his pie-hole far out of the water.

Let's see another show of hands of people who stayed in swimming, or even better water polo, because it was FINALLY a chance to kick sand (so to speak) in the faces of all the people that made us look like idiots in gym class all those years. (Once again, thought so.)

Matt

knelson
June 16th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
but please knelson....perhaps you can elaborate a tad on that.....Your statement seems to almost suggest something in particular?

Just commenting that you don't like to write in complete sentences. Instead it's sort of a stream of consciousness separated by ellipses. Not that there's anything wrong with it....just a little unusual :)

newmastersswimmer
June 16th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Actually I was trying to be sarcastic b/c I thought you were talking about the fact that I connect all those phrases (i.e. partial sentences) together with "....."....i.e.....no actual periods untill the last word......Isn't that what you were sort of suggesting as well.......knel....son?....are those what you are calling "ellipses".... I suppose?


Peace Out,

N.M.S.

dead fish
June 16th, 2005, 04:01 PM
Matt S
I wish you had a clue. There are certain rules that members of a national team must follow.
Uniform while on deck, Gary doesnít.
Showing up at all evening events is another, Gary didn't.

As for his "unappreciated genius." You must have hit your head on a backstroke turn.

Those are the rules of being on the national team. THE SAME RULES FOR EVERYONE.

Swimmers are not a big draw period. If swimmers wish to get to the big endorsement levels of say track, they should follow the changes made by NASCAR. From nothing 15 years ago to pretty big bucks for drivers and they are class with the fans.

I don't have a problem with his stand. My problem is he wasn't willing to face the fire and as White Buff said felt entitled. A common problem with many in our world today, it's never our fault. Always someone else to blame and enablers to say you right it wasn't really your fault.

Blue Horn
June 16th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Why all the hostility? I can understand disagreeing with the way people handle themselves, but to so vehemently attack and judge a man as being morally deficient based upon 1% of his life is plain wrong. It is beyond misguided to think that these few incidents in Gary Hall Jr.'s life are the epitome of what is wrong with society. It goes way beyond Hall. We have become a selfish me me me society no doubt, but Mr. Hall's actions have nothing to do with the perpetuation of these problems. Especially when you consider all of the unselfish things that Mr. Hall has done. These personal attacks on Mr. Hall and those that find his antics enteraining really make the attacker look bad. Maybe some of you should reread you post to see how anger and bitter you sound. Life is too short to be that unhappy.

Hook'em
Blue

Jeff Commings
June 16th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by tjrpatt
[QUOTE]Originally posted by swimrat
[B]I think if swimming was a team sport we'd all be playing water polo.

I don't think that swimming is a team sport in any way,


Swimming is a team sport?? I didn't get the memo. I never thought that swimming is a team sport.

Compete in the NCAAs. Swim on a relay. Heck, try to stand on the sidelines and not cheer for someone that's onthe same TEAM as you. Then come back and say that swimming is not a team sport.

If you practice alone, race unattached and never swim on a relay, then you can say that swimming is not a team sport.

Matt S
June 21st, 2005, 05:32 PM
Jeff: You have accurately described the joy of high school and college swimming, and it is indeed a wonderful thing. I recently had the priviledge of helping to coach my old college alma matter, and watching them compete at Conference Championships and soaking up the atmosphere was a treat I had not enjoyed in years. However, consider that you can also compete in a Masters meet where the coach doesn't show up, 90% of the team and 95% of the fastest swimmers don't show up, and you are scraping around to form a relay of any sort. Swimming can be a terrific team sport, but it is not one by its nature.

Dead Fish: I agree with you completely that I would like my children to behave more like the numerous well mannered, mature swimmers who never made it out of the prelims (or even made it to the Olympic Games at all) rather than Gary Hall. I think that behavior produces better human beings and more successful teams. However, don't kid yourself about popularity. Yes, it's terrific that our best swimmer, Michael Phelps, is a well mannered young man (youthful mistakes not withstanding). But Gary gives us something to talk about. Was tennis more interesting when John McEnroe was the dominant male player, or Pete Sampras? And, as Blue Horn suggests, please don't make Gary a straw man for all you dislike in modern society. Try looking at everything he does, not just his antics, and make an allowance for the private individual none of us generally see. See the whole person.

Blue Horn: this is a bit off topic, but I now understand how you cheer both your Horns and our beloved Wolverines. I went into last season's Rose Bowl wanting to dislike Texas, wanting to make them a symbol for all the stuff going on in 2004 that I objected to. Problem with that approach is that the Horns, their coaching staff and their fans conducted themselves with such class I couldn't do it. Every word out of their mouths in the run up to the game was respect for the Rose Bowl, the Big Ten and the Pac Ten, and just how lucky they were to get a chance to play in it, etc. etc. Then they went out and played a whale of a game, a clean game, with both teams bringing their A game, and won a real squeaker. I asked myself several times how come these two teams never played before? I hope devoutly their ADs will remedy that situation because this has all the makings of a beautiful rivalry.

Do I have a general point? Maybe it's an appreciation that not all people are the same; enjoy the differences.

Matt

Tom Ellison
June 21st, 2005, 06:14 PM
Matt wrote:
"Maybe it's an appreciation that not all people are the same; enjoy the differences."


Mr. Moose, Ralph and I applaud that statementÖ..HOW TRUE!

craiglll@yahoo.com
June 27th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Read Race Club

Blue Horn
June 27th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Matt,

The schools are amazingly similar. I will never forget sitting in that stadium watching the greastest game I have ever seen. (That was my 2nd Rose Bowl, the first was when we beat WSU for the Nat'l Champ in 97.) The fact that the fans on both sides were extremely knowledgable about the game and the history of college football only made it that much better. Also, the fact that UM fans did not feel the need to do the upside down horns sign, just shows the immense pride and confidence of UM alums as opposed to so many other fan bases.

Hook'em
Blue

lefty
June 28th, 2005, 10:37 AM
The reason Craig said to read the latest update at the Race Club website:

Gary has read the comments on this message board and said he was hurt that people who do not know him would attack him personally. Check it out for yourself.

There is a difference between disagreeing with the actions of someone and labeling someone based on those actions. I feel I need to be intimately aware of someone before I would feel it was appropriate to label them.

craiglll@yahoo.com
June 28th, 2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Matt S
Jeff: You have accurately described the joy of high school and college swimming, and it is indeed a wonderful thing. I recently had the priviledge of helping to coach my old college alma matter, and watching them compete at Conference Championships and soaking up the atmosphere was a treat I had not enjoyed in years. However, consider that you can also compete in a Masters meet where the coach doesn't show up, 90% of the team and 95% of the fastest swimmers don't show up, and you are scraping around to form a relay of any sort. Swimming can be a terrific team sport, but it is not one by its nature.

Dead Fish: I agree with you completely that I would like my children to behave more like the numerous well mannered, mature swimmers who never made it out of the prelims (or even made it to the Olympic Games at all) rather than Gary Hall. I think that behavior produces better human beings and more successful teams. However, don't kid yourself about popularity. Yes, it's terrific that our best swimmer, Michael Phelps, is a well mannered young man (youthful mistakes not withstanding). But Gary gives us something to talk about. Was tennis more interesting when John McEnroe was the dominant male player, or Pete Sampras? And, as Blue Horn suggests, please don't make Gary a straw man for all you dislike in modern society. Try looking at everything he does, not just his antics, and make an allowance for the private individual none of us generally see. See the whole person.

Blue Horn: this is a bit off topic, but I now understand how you cheer both your Horns and our beloved Wolverines. I went into last season's Rose Bowl wanting to dislike Texas, wanting to make them a symbol for all the stuff going on in 2004 that I objected to. Problem with that approach is that the Horns, their coaching staff and their fans conducted themselves with such class I couldn't do it. Every word out of their mouths in the run up to the game was respect for the Rose Bowl, the Big Ten and the Pac Ten, and just how lucky they were to get a chance to play in it, etc. etc. Then they went out and played a whale of a game, a clean game, with both teams bringing their A game, and won a real squeaker. I asked myself several times how come these two teams never played before? I hope devoutly their ADs will remedy that situation because this has all the makings of a beautiful rivalry.

Do I have a general point? Maybe it's an appreciation that not all people are the same; enjoy the differences.

Matt

Matt,
1. What's your alma mater? Is it an Illinois school?
2. After watching some reality shows & hten knowing someone who was on one, I know that frequently we see only bits of reality and must make up our minds from what we see. Most people only see gary Hall when he is ready to compete or just finished. Few see more of him. I am not always the best person, I'm sure you aren't also. I also know that Gary Hall has brought a lot more attention to swimming than I ever will. I also know that we see only a piece of Michael Phelps. Christian theologians site it as the duality of man (having been created by God but born through sin). I prefer to say that because we are able to think and resolve & make choices, we make mistakes and differences. I think you are right in saying look at Gaary Hall's multiple sides.

gull
June 28th, 2005, 11:13 AM
Gary wrote the following:

"I really would like to write a book. There have been a few things that I should talk about. I would like to answer the many questions that the diabetes community sends in. The stories that inspire me. The work that I do within the diabetes community. The relay in Athens. Many folks have offered unfair criticism for the way things were portrayed in the media. For the most part I have bitten my tongue, something that I am not inclined to do often, regarding this issue. I would like to set the record straight regarding the series of events that took place. The formation of the Race Club. Winning and losing. Lessons learned.

Recently I took a stroll through the Masters Swimming website and there are some really nasty things being said about me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Lord knows I buy into that.

People who are critical of my behavior, my wardrobe, the way I train or the way I promote the sport of swimming (at every level) are folks that I don't know. The people who believe I don't train have never seen me train. The people who believe I have an ego have never met me. There are some people in the sport that I know that will roll their eyes at some of the things I do but stop well short of criticizing them. Most of the people who know me don't have anything bad to say; just the opposite really, and I would like to thank the many people that have been so supportive. I know that you can't make everyone happy.

It hurts to know that some can be so critical of the way I choose to promote the sport of swimming. There aren't a whole lot of swimmers out there that are spending their own money to promote the sport and support other swimmers, often their competitors. I do it because I love the sport and have the utmost respect for those I compete against. There is camaraderie.

Regardless of whether there is opposition we must push on, doing what we believe to be right. I believe that The Race Club is a good thing that is helping the sport. I believe that by creating more diabetes awareness and raising money for research I contribute in the search for a cure."

I agree with Sam Perry--it seems that some of the more negative posts come from anonymous sources.

Tom Ellison
June 28th, 2005, 11:24 AM
Gary makes some very good points!

TheGoodSmith
June 28th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Nice of him to take note of the USMS forum posts. I wish he would have more directly commented on some of the stuff White Buffalo said, though.

It would have been interesting.


John Smith

SwiminONandON
June 28th, 2005, 11:29 AM
Awh, poor guy ... I feel bad now ... And usually I try not to say bad things about people ... It's hard to get an accurate view of someone that you don't actually know and/or have only seen on tv for a few minutes here and there ... I apologize for my comments and take them back ... I would love for him to elaborate further on the relay thing though ... I do have a picture of Gary in his "costume" on my door under the quote "I've always admired those that bite off more than they can chew then chew it." I think it's a fitting quote for him ... Best of luck to him in the future! Keep swimming!

Howard
June 28th, 2005, 11:43 AM
What exactly stops him from setting the record straight?

SwiminONandON
June 28th, 2005, 11:51 AM
Who knows ... maybe he realized he messed up. Maybe he doesn't think he did anything wrong. Maybe he doesn't want to paint the coaches or other swimmers in a bad light ... who knows ... I must say though that I admire people who step up and say ya' know what I screwed up and I'm sorry ... now that being said, I am not implying that Gary needs to do this or that he really did anything wrong, he did what was right for him even if that came off as childish and selfish and unsupportive. The guy did win the gold in the 50.

We tend to judge other people by our own standards and that's not fair. People are different and we all react differently in certain situations. It's easy for all us to sit back and say that we would have done things differently but unless you are in the exact same situation you don't truly know what you would have done.

Additionally, I must say I don't think I've ever heard about word uttered about the guy from anyone that really knows him ...

gull
June 28th, 2005, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
It's easy for all us to sit back and say that we would have done things differently but unless you are in the exact same situation you don't truly know what you would have done.


How true. Maybe you shouldn't have called him a jerk.

SwiminONandON
June 28th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Yeah, and I apolgized for that ... thank you for so kindly pointing that out to me ... Good thing you've never made a mistake in your life ... if only we could all be so perfect ...

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 12:27 PM
I posted information at www.usswim.org about Gary's 4x100 free relay at the 2004 Athens Olympics.

It is said in this thread that coach Eddie Reese set the condition for being in the 4x100 free relay, and that Gary blew up two chances then felt entitled and deprived.

This is wrong.

Eddie Reese set the condition of achieving a 48.5 in the morning preliminary relay, alright.

But he set the condition unilaterally, forcing it without the consent of Gary.

The condition is too high and unrealistic.

Gary tried to achieve the condition.

The condition shouldn't have been binding, as in being too high and unrealistic, an unprofessional decision.

Why?

1.) Entering the 2004 Olympics, Gary was #4 American (behind Lezak's 48.17, Phelps's 49.05, and Crocker's 49.06), so with a fair decision he is in the 4x100 free relay.
Gary finished the 2004 as #4 American, #12 in the world.

2.) Entering the 2004 Olympics 4x100 free final, Gary came in with a morning preliminary relay time of 48.73, hard to match.

3.) In the 2004 Olympics 4x100 free realy, Phelps at 48.74 and Crocker's flat start at 50.0x, didn't match Gary's 48.73 morning relay time and 49.16 flat start at the 2004 U.S. Trials.

4.) In the Olympic training camp, Phelps didn't practice relay starts with the U.S. team, and that's why he was slower than Gary's morning relay swim.

5.) Crocker was ill and this was known to coach Eddie Reese.
Eddie naively blew it to put Crocker in the relay in spite of Crocker's sickness.

6.) Gary performas faster at night than his 48.73 morning swim, he is not a morning swimmer.

7.) Gary has an experience of fighting big time relays battles, and he often comes from behind in races where he is like overachieving.

8.) Coach Eddie Reese wrongly mocked Gary by stating that at 29 he is old and past his best years.
This is unprofessional and naive.
A few days later, Gary won gold in the individual 50 free.
Beating everyone in the world, in speed.

9.) In 1995, coach Eddie Reese at University of Texas was poking fun at Gary not making intervals in practice.
Coach Mike Bottom was listening.

Coach Mike Bottom took Gary to:

.) five medals at the 1995 Pan Pacific Games,

.) silver in the 50 free and silver in the 100 free at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics,

.) gold in the 50 free and bronze in the 100 free at the 2000 Sydney Olympics,

and together with Olympian and coach Jon Olsen has a hand in Gary's gold at the 2004 Athens Olympics.

10.) 1.) thru 9.) are not hindsight, it is the professional duty of coach Eddie Reese to address them for competent foresight.

Eddie Reese has egg on his face:

the 4x100 reee U.S. team could have won silver at the 2004 Athens Olympics, behind R.S.A. but ahead of Holland.

I met Gary at the 2004 U.S.M.S. Short Course Nationals in Indianapolis.

He is a friendly champion.

Positive and respectful.

(His younger brother, Brian, has same qualities).

gull
June 28th, 2005, 12:32 PM
Nice post. The question is, did Eddie Reese allow personal feelings to sway his decision?

Tom Ellison
June 28th, 2005, 12:41 PM
I do not know Coach Reese...but I do know a few very good swimmers (who are decent people) that know him well....and it is my understanding that he is NOT given that type action.....at all.

gull
June 28th, 2005, 12:46 PM
Understood, but he is human, and personally invested in the UT swimmers. And Gary Hall seems to provoke strong feelings in (some) people.

SwiminONandON
June 28th, 2005, 12:46 PM
In Phelps' defense the kid is a helluva swimmer and was having a fantastic week. I would have put him on the relay, too. If I remember correctly Gary had the third fastest 100 time in prelims, morning swimmer or not he seemed off his game in the 100 in Athens. I think Eddie Reese (and I don't know him at all) made his decision based off of that information. Did he have bias b/c he knows Crocker well, sees him swim everyday and know that the kid can step up when he needs to? Probably. I'm not entirely sure things would have been different had Hall swam.

Tom Ellison
June 28th, 2005, 12:51 PM
Quote: Gull80--"Understood, but he is human, and personally invested in the UT swimmers. And Gary Hall seems to provoke strong feelings in people."

This is a good point or question which has been bantered around since Athens, but again, IMHO, from the input I have from people that know Coach Reese and know him well....They all say it would be tough to connect those dots....It just is not Eddie Reese from what they tell me.

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by gull80
...The question is, did Eddie Reese allow personal feelings to sway his decision?
Yes.

Which is unprofessional.

And loser.

TheGoodSmith
June 28th, 2005, 01:02 PM
Take a look at the morning swims for the 4 x 100 relay at Athens.

http://www.athens2004.com/en/SwimmingMen/results?rsc=SWM411901&frag=SWM411901_C73B1

WOODWARD Gabe 0.70 23.62 49.93 (5) 49.93
DUSING Nate 0.14 23.12 49.01 (4) 1:38.94
WALKER Neil 0.19 22.57 48.16 (2) 2:27.10
HALL Gary 0.08 22.91 48.73 (2) 3:15.83

Note: Walker decidedly outsplit Hall and made the so called "unrealistic" and "too high" cut by Eddie Reese.

Remember, the coaching staff discusses the relay options. This is not something you put out for a vote by the swimmers. Neither Gary or any other swimmer get to review and approve the decision by the coaching staff.

Lastly, I can assure you that you are grossly in error about Eddie Reese and your opinion that he is naive and unprofessional.


John Smith

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by SwiminONandON
In Phelps' defense the kid is a helluva swimmer and was having a fantastic week. I would have put him on the relay, too. If I remember correctly Gary had the third fastest 100 time in prelims, morning swimmer or not he seemed off his game in the 100 in Athens.
...

and

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Take a look at the morning swims for the 4 x 100 relay at Athens.

http://www.athens2004.com/en/SwimmingMen/results?rsc=SWM411901&frag=SWM411901_C73B1

WOODWARD Gabe 0.70 23.62 49.93 (5) 49.93
DUSING Nate 0.14 23.12 49.01 (4) 1:38.94
WALKER Neil 0.19 22.57 48.16 (2) 2:27.10
HALL Gary 0.08 22.91 48.73 (2) 3:15.83

Note: Walker decidedly outsplit Hall and made the so called "unrealistic" and "too high" cut by Eddie Reese.
...
Lastly, I can assure you that you are grossly in error about Eddie Reese and your opinion that he is naive and unprofessional.


John Smith
Wrong.

In the preliminary, Gary came in third, behind Lezak and Walker.

What does this tell for the night swim?

Gary and the peaking Walker are in.

Peaking Lezak is in.

Sick Crocker is out.

Phelps is in.

Any way you look at this, as long as professional criteria is in, Gary is in.

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith

...
Remember, the coaching staff discusses the relay options. This is not something you put out for a vote by the swimmers. Neither Gary or any other swimmer get to review and approve the decision by the coaching staff.
...
John Smith
That's where a coach is good or bad:

when communication and understanding is achieved or not achieved with the actual fighters in the arena.

Reese is just an armchair hero here.
A bureaucrat.

Who blew it.

Tom Ellison
June 28th, 2005, 01:15 PM
For YOU ....OF ALL PEOPLE.... to call Coach Reese a loser.....
This man has more class, knowledge of swimming, world class swimmers that he coached..... then you will know in ten of your deluded life times.....What planet are you on?

TheGoodSmith
June 28th, 2005, 01:18 PM
Any way you cut it, Gary is not on the relay at night.

Walker outsplit him with a 48.1.... Lezak and Crocker own 2 spots because they represent the US in the 100 free individual event. Phelps is undeniably more capable and having a great meet and gets a spot.

Looks pretty cut and dry to me.


John Smith

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 01:21 PM
John,

you didn't read carefully.

Walker is in.

Lezak is in.

Gary is in.

Phelps is in.

Sick Crocker is out.

Even stretched to more extreme than Gary's times, in the past, in women, Jenny Thompson was in the 4x200 free finals, even though she didn't compete at Trials in the 200 free, and Jenny displaced a Trials qualifier.

Walker, Lezak, Gary, Phelps in, that's obvious before the start of the race.

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
For YOU ....OF ALL PEOPLE.... to call Coach Reese a loser.....
This man has more class, knowledge of swimming, world class swimmers that he coached..... then you will know in ten of your deluded life times.....What planet are you on?
You know what?

I post under my real name.

Times and swimmers that you haven't learned about.

In none of your posts in four years.

And Ellison is not your name.

Under your real name you are even not listed in the U.S.M.S. database as a competitor in 2005.

aquageek
June 28th, 2005, 01:29 PM
I wondered how long it would take for this thread, previously interesting, to be hijacked. Quicker than imagined. I did think Gull's comments were good and Tom's follow up equally insightful. Now the thread will be ruined.

TheGoodSmith
June 28th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Taking Ian out of the relay poses a bigger concern and deviation from the norm as the 2 individual 100 freestylers almost always swim on the relay for finals.

Certainly, if Eddie or any of the coaches new that Ian was performing that poorly they wouldn't have put him on the relay. Ian is a great swimmer with a great tradition of performing well on relays in tight spots. To go out on a limb and remove him from the relay before his first events unfolded would be a hell of a risk and a slap in the face to the normal rules of who gets on the relay.

Certainly, the relay would have been faster if Gary swam in Ian's spot.... no one denies this now ..... but no one had a crystal ball for that situation.


John Smith

Tom Ellison
June 28th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Ok, I am all ears now....
Gosh, it has been my name the past 55 years....I'd guess ten to twenty of the folks on here know me in private life....and know Ellison is my name....my 7 Top Ten USMS Times and 1 FINA International Top Ten Time are in MY name "Ellison"....Heck, now you are so smart and all knowing that you are telling me Ellison is NOT my name....Gee, I guess I better get a new drivers lic., US Marine Corps DD214 form, Passport and about ten zillion other forms of ID changes because the ONE and ONLY ION THE GREAT has determined that my life long name is not Ellison....Heck, my father was named Ellison as well....or....actually, his name was Mr. Ellison....

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by aquageek

...
...and Tom's follow up equally insightful. Now the thread will be ruined.
Not by me.

I never saw a 48.73 or Neil Walker written by Tom, in four years since I am here.

I write Neil Walker since 2003, and follow him since 1997.

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Ok, I am all ears now....
Gosh, it has been my name the past 55 years....I'd guess ten to twenty of the folks on here know me in private life....and know Ellison is my name....my 7 Top Ten USMS Times and 1 FINA International Top Ten Time are in MY name "Ellison"....Heck, now you are so smart and all knowing that you are telling me Ellison is NOT my name....Gee, I guess I better get a new drivers lic., US Marine Corps DD214 form, Passport and about ten zillion other forms of ID changes because the ONE and ONLY ION THE GREAT has determined that my life long name is not Ellison....Heck, my father was named Ellison as well....or....actually, his name was Mr. Ellison....
Then why do you sign your e-mails as Wolz?

By the way, in this forum you forget to cuss so that you resemble them better.

Anyway Ellison is not a competitor in the 2005 U.S.M.S. either.

Tom Ellison
June 28th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Quote by Ion: "and follow him since 1998."

Well, where did he go?

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith

...
Certainly, if Eddie or any of the coaches new that Ian was performing that poorly they wouldn't have put him on the relay.
...
John Smith
I post mainly at the www.usswim.org and it is documented there that Eddie Reese knew that Crocker was sick, and Eddie Reese committed a blunder nonetheless.

Ion Beza
June 28th, 2005, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Quote by Ion: "and follow him since 1998."

Well, where did he go?
To the 1998 Perth World Championships.

Racing a certain Klim from Australia.

Which you don't know, of course.

I follow his results on the Internet.

But you forgot to squeeze in your favorite word Amen so that misinformed readers start to swoon, no matter what.

SwiminONandON
June 28th, 2005, 01:48 PM
I'm absolutely astounded by the fact that Ion hasn't been named the CEO of USA Swimming or at least as the head coach for an Olympic or World team. He is obviously far more knowledgeable about the swimmes, their capabilities, their technique, etc. How has this oversight been made?

gull
June 28th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Granted Reese is a great coach; I think it would be difficult for him to be completely objective in that situation. He's trained Crocker, has confidence in what he can do, and maybe gives him the benefit of the doubt, even knowing that he's not feeling 100% (assuming he did know).

SwiminONandON
June 28th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Also, sometimes athletes (especially in BIG competitions) do better sick ... Michael Jordan was REALLY, REALLY sick for one of the playoff final games (can't remember the year or the game) and he had a phenomenal game ...

Who knows ... I think Eddie is a phenomenal coach, you can't argue with his results ...

Tom Ellison
June 28th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Ion rote: "Which you don't know, of course."

Who the heck died and left YOU in control of knowing what I know...or don't know....or even care to know?

I'll give you a hint Ion....Maybe you should take two minutes here on this forum and tell us ALL YOU KNOW about fast swimming!