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TheGoodSmith
July 7th, 2005, 11:47 AM
Are Triathletes worth the dues they pay toward Masters Swimming?

I say we force all Triathletes to spend one day a week in the sprint lane, one day a week doing stroke (i.e. IM) work, and then make them focus on their starts and turns.

This invasion needs to be controlled.... :-)


John Smith
:)

dead fish
July 7th, 2005, 12:12 PM
You are really an unhappy man aren't you.
Don't you get it they are "Try-athletes" trying to be athletes.

valhallan
July 7th, 2005, 12:33 PM
..you forgot to mention...no wet suits allowed in the pool :)

...Now brace yourself Mr. GoodSmith for the onslaught of verbal triathlete arrows about to besiege you. :)
They can be an unruly bunch.

aquageek
July 7th, 2005, 12:36 PM
We have recently added a few triathletes to our Masters team and I have enjoyed their perspective. If they show up for practice, I'm happy to see our program grow.

However, nothing really thrills me as much as smoking a bunch of buffed up tri's at an open water swim. You can always tell the swimmers at an open water event, ratty suits, busted up goggles but first out of the water. The tri's have all the gear, mill about and congregate at the front, then proceed to come in dead last. But, the ones that swim with our masters team have improved greatly and I'm happy for them.

aquageek
July 7th, 2005, 12:49 PM
Sorry for the second post but wetsuits is another sore subject. Unless you are in danger of freezing, they should not be allowed. I was at an event in 76 degree water and all the tris had on wetsuits, which just gives me more motivation.

I think if I could learn how to run or bike, I'm gonna show up at a triathlon and ride a moped for those two legs and call it legal cause there was a little headwind preventing me from biking or running on my own effectively.

hrietz
July 7th, 2005, 01:00 PM
I definitely have mixed feelings. I also am happy to see the program grow and many of them are committed athletes. However during long course season we only have 4 lanes so there is a space issue. The SWIMMERS can't swim with the triathletes because all the tris want to do is freestyle. They also require quite a bit of supervision since some (not all) seem to be a couple of steps shy of drowning. I guess if I had to make a decision it would be to get rid of them at our practices (during LC season) except for the ones who can and are willing to do a SWIMMING practice...I feel like I can say that since we do have a separate practice for them but they tend to trickle over into the swimming practices...

scyfreestyler
July 7th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by hrietz
The SWIMMERS can't swim with the triathletes because all the tris want to do is freestyle. I swim primarily freestyle with a little bit of breast mixed in on occasion (recovering from a shoulder injury). I don't see why a person's stroke choice should affect your group workout.

hrietz
July 7th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by 330man
I swim primarily freestyle with a little bit of breast mixed in on occasion (recovering from a shoulder injury). I don't see why a person's stroke choice should affect your group workout.

It just makes things easier when 5 or 6 people are in the lane if everybody in the lane is doing the same thing. You're right though as long as everybody makes the interval it shouldn't matter what stroke they are doing. Therefore next time I want to get in a good breastroke workout I will move down and swim with the triathletes...

aquageek
July 7th, 2005, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by 330man
I swim primarily freestyle with a little bit of breast mixed in on occasion (recovering from a shoulder injury). I don't see why a person's stroke choice should affect your group workout.

If you are in the same lane, at the very least you should be all doing the same interval. But, generally (like 95%) of the time, everyone does the same strokes. Also, say you are doing a 1:20 100 repeat, if you are all doing the same strokes, you will generally come in together. If you have mixed strokes, you might all leave at the same time but probably won't all have the same pace making it difficult to swim together.

scyfreestyler
July 7th, 2005, 01:55 PM
My mistake, I was not aware that you had 5 to 6 swimmers in one lane. The workouts at my local pool typically have 3 to 4 people per lane and sometimes even less. I can see how stroke choice would have an effect on a crowded lane.

In any case, I love swimming next to triathletes and passing them while taking fewer strokes. Technique trumps power in the water!! I generally swim between 13 and 16 SPL depending on my level on concentration and fatigue but most of the tri's I see swimming are over 20 SPL and going slow to boot.

TheGoodSmith
July 7th, 2005, 03:23 PM
The issue is one of compliance.

If you come to Masters swim workouts, learn to do more than just pace freestyle.

Take pride in your strokes and different events people ! Triathletes (in general) need to learn more about swimming than just pace freestyle.

Should we discuss the selfish time consuming training lifestyles of triathletes ?............ :-)


John Smith

aquageek
July 7th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Should we discuss the selfish time consuming training lifestyles of triathletes ?............ :-)


John Smith

I gotta agree with you on this one, it is a little culty, isn't it?

TheGoodSmith
July 7th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Triathletes.......

Jack of all trades......... or are they ......... Master of nothing.



John Smith

dead fish
July 7th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Tryin- 2- b-athletes are here to stay
The life style is self-centered?
They have a difficult time reading the clock.

They've got all the new toys, the mask goggles, very cool.
But the worst part is they don't respect the sport!

aztimm
July 7th, 2005, 04:00 PM
My team has some workouts specifically for triathletes I think 4x a week. Of course we do have a few who sneak into our regular workouts (as I'm sure a few of us sneak into theirs). I really don't understand the fuss....we have 8 lanes. If they want to do free, chances are there's a lane for them out of the 8 where they'd fit in with whatever that lane is doing. The coach is usually pretty good about moving people around if he sees someone out of where they should be.

TheGoodSmith
July 7th, 2005, 04:01 PM
Triathletes......... I prefer to think of them as "Two-and-a-Third-Athletes". After all, I have yet to see a triathlon with a relatively equal amount of time spent in the water.

I suppose we should keep taking their money and let them swim repeat 800s on their own in an outside lane. It helps fund USMS.


John Smith

Bobby
July 7th, 2005, 04:21 PM
Our club is almost half triathletes, and sometimes there is a problem in the lanes. Most of the time our coaches can give a workout for swimmers and triathletes.

From a club stand point, its good most of them get hurt running and end up staying members and swim for a life time.

But boy can some of them drive the old guard swimmers nuts
especially if one gets good.

Don't worry John none to date have gotten that good.

Bobby
July 7th, 2005, 04:24 PM
Of course take the cash!

Jeff Commings
July 7th, 2005, 04:28 PM
I swam in a place where many of the swimmers' only focus was the La Jolla Roughwater swim. They trained all year for it. Granted, they always did well in it, but I got irked when they would put on their paddles and do nothing but freestyle on stroke day. Even worse, they would not show up for the only day specified as distance free day!

As for triathletes, I have respect for them, but I've always been one to say that even though swimming is an individual sport, it is a team effort in workout. Unless you have the glory of swimming in your own lane all the time (as I once did), you have to do what everyone else is doing. If we're doing 12x50 and not 6x100. If the whole lane is doing 200 IMs, don't do 300s free.

The swimming part is probably the only time they have to contend with other people, so they don't really know what it's like.

valhallan
July 7th, 2005, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith


Should we discuss the selfish time consuming training lifestyles of triathletes ?............ :-)




Boy...when they get back from their three hour lunch time bike rides...they're gonna lay into this thread with a vengeance.:)

Peter Cruise
July 7th, 2005, 04:43 PM
I think John would light a match at a gas pump just to provoke a good discussion...coached a group of tri's years ago for their swim portion & was amazed at their unwillingness (in general) to consider flip turns ("won't use them in a race, coach; But, Biff, doing a flip turn would stop you from taking that great big bonus breath on your hideously-inefficient open turns therefore aiding in your conditioning!") different strokes ("freestyle is fastest, coach, I don't want to learn another stroke: But, Goof, what if your goggles are knicked off, you cramp up, get overtired- it would be a real asset to be able to temporarily switch strokes-Goof, please stop looking at your pace-watch").
It was also amazing and very tempting to abuse their trust as they were totally open trying any sort of ludicrous diet suggestion or equipment variation is search of 'an edge' rather than applying due effort to solid technical stroke improvement.
Oh, I do go on...say, John, have you heard that Tall Paul secretly always wanted to be a triathlete?

Sam Perry
July 7th, 2005, 05:09 PM
Triathlon: Why excel at one sport when you can be mediocre in 3?

scyfreestyler
July 7th, 2005, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Sam Perry
Triathlon: Why excel at one sport when you can be mediocre in 3? Ouch!! Glad I am not a Triathlete or I'd have to find some way in which to retaliate.

Paul Smith
July 7th, 2005, 05:13 PM
Peter, Peter, Peter you are so confused! I can forgive that however since Evil Smith so twisted our identites and turned things completey around that its hard to remember who's who. I'm the taller, nicer, better looking one who also happens to have a faster 50 time at the moment (which is a major thorn in JS's side!).

John, would you care to share the "truth" with the group?

Recall a certain open water swim in Colorado last year that you won (beating out a host of the evil triathletes)......wearing a wetsuit......which no one else did??!! And you continue to catch hell from it to this day from Heather?

Must be a Texas thing with you.....all hat and no cattle as Sam puts it!

lefty
July 7th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
[as they were totally open trying any sort of ludicrous diet suggestion or equipment variation is search of 'an edge' rather than applying due effort to solid technical stroke improvement.
[/B]

The problem is, you can buy speed in the bike portion. If I switched bikes with Lance Armstrong he would have a hard time keeping up with me (and I am not saying that for effect. It really is true).

But pools are expensive so - and I include aquarobics in this - it is important that they serve the needs of more than just swimmers lest they not be built at all.

TheGoodSmith
July 7th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Dear Evil Smith (and temporary holder of my 50 free record).

Please note that even though I completed a 2.4 mile swim 2 years ago.... which is equal to a HELL of a lot of 50 frees...... I did not get out of the water and hop on a bike.

My legs were made for dragging. Why do excercise upright when you can do it laying down.


John Smith

Paul Smith
July 7th, 2005, 05:42 PM
JS....I do seem to recall someone at nationals yelling at you while you we're standing on the blocks: "Are those your legs or are you sitting on a chicken"?

Maybe you should get on a bike once in awhile on put some meat on those bony thing.....seems to me you have a nice one?

SwiminONandON
July 7th, 2005, 05:47 PM
I actually do like the vast majority of tris that swim with us ... for the most part they swim the same sets and will swim all four strokes ... I get annoyed when we are swimming IM and they do free, back, free, free ... that is NOT an IM ... Worse is when we don't do much stroke work or IM work b/c the tris are all there ... that drives me nuts...

But they give the club money, some give USMS money, and while they'd kick my butt on a bike or a run, I can beat most of them in the pool, so ...

Peter Cruise
July 7th, 2005, 07:35 PM
Paul- I guess you missed it when John explained that you were going into hospital for a surgical procedure to insert flotation devices into your shoulders since you realized that the flotatation effect from gas flowing from your prodigious intake of high test aussi beer propelled you recently to a new world record...come to think of it, I know some triathletes who would try that...

Phil Arcuni
July 7th, 2005, 07:53 PM
I usually swim in the morning with two triathletes - One regularly goes under 2:00 in the 200 back (not too long ago he did a 2:03 LCM,) and the other can go under 1:00 for the 100 yd breast. Needless to say, they do not swim exclusive freestyle, and rather than them getting in my way, it is usually the other way around!

It is true, however, that they did go to the dark (dim?) side a couple of years ago.

Donna
July 7th, 2005, 09:03 PM
My team is primarily Tri's and exercisers, that is why this ex-sprinter is doing better at distance events than the sprints (but my bad back might hamper the starts a bit). Maybe next year I can improve something below the 200 mark.

I guess for me I would like some company at the meets but even the true swimmers that are in our practices just seem to swim for enjoyment not competition. If the meet is at our pool then they might come.

But I have got to say that everyone at the meets is great and I love meeting new people at every meet. You guys are great.

Conniekat8
July 8th, 2005, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Bobby
Of course take the cash!

999

Maybe we could tri-charge them.
Seems like the more things cost, the more they respect them.

I'm amazed how many of them come to our coach, pay 300 for a six pack of private lessons a month before their race, don't swim more then a thousand yards two to three times a week, and theink their swimming is going to improve.

Forget the VO2Max Methinks I need to invent an under water ankle flexing kickcycle sell them for 5K a piece, rent a pool at the local 24 hour fitness and hold a bubble-cycle class!!!

(Got laundry to toss in the spin cycle?) ;)

Kevin in MD
July 8th, 2005, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by lefty
If I switched bikes with Lance Armstrong he would have a hard time keeping up with me (and I am not saying that for effect. It really is true).


You are mistaken.

Lance Armstrong and his one hour power output of 500 watts would beat you and your 100 watts on any road bicycle ever made, including your 10 speed Schwinn from 1970.

When climbing it is a matter of power to weight ratio. Steady watts divided by the weight of rider + bicycle.
You weigh 150 same as Lance possibly.
You ride thre 17 pound new bike
He rides the 50 pound schwinn.
For the sake of argument we'll be kind and say you can hold 200 watts for an hour.

LA = 500 / (150+50) = 2.5 watts per pound.

You = 200 / (150+17) = 1.2 watts per pound.
He'd climb up a hill twice as fast as you would.

On he flats it is power / aero profile. The aero profiles of road bikes have only gotten better by about 20%. Meaning he'd go MUCH MUCH more faster than you would on the flats.

TheGoodSmith
July 8th, 2005, 10:06 AM
Well,......... since they are really just visitors to the sport of competitive swimming, I suppose we should treat them as such.

Place them in an end lane with a mind numbing pace set and turn our attention to the rest of the people interested in the entire sport.


John Smith

aquageek
July 8th, 2005, 10:48 AM
I'm enjoying the tri bash we have going here.

Can anyone explain to me why swimming a 2000 with a pull buoy and paddles is proper training for a triathlon swim event? Can you wear a pull buoy and paddles in a triathlon?

And, why if you are a triathlete and doing your swim day, do you have to wear the ridiculous two piece man bikini? What is that bra top doing for you in the pool that it is required to wear it?

Further, if you aren't jumping out of the pool and onto your bike, the padded bike shorts ARE NOT SWIM SUITS.

Lastly, it is not necessary to wear a heart rate monitor at all times during the day.

Jeff Commings
July 8th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Can anyone explain to me why swimming a 2000 with a pull buoy and paddles is proper training for a triathlon swim event? Can you wear a pull buoy and paddles in a triathlon?


I'm going to go off-topic briefly and amend that comment:

Can anyone explain to me why swimming a 2000 with a pull buoy and paddles is proper training for a swimming race? Can you wear a pull buoy and paddles in a meet?

scyfreestyler
July 8th, 2005, 12:27 PM
Jeff,
I am so glad you made that comment. I was tempted to say that this thread is the height of hipocrisy. Oops, there it went. Anyhow, don't you all think that triathletes think that we are missing out on cycling or running? I would imagine they think of themselves as having a more balanced workout. Maybe they are wrong and maybe they are right. Either way it does not really matter. What matters is that we as swimmers should be a bit more tolerant of athletes who choose a different path than we do. Do yourselves and the sport of swimming a favor, welcome athletes from all backgrounds. The more people involved in swimming the better it will be for all of us.

aquageek
July 8th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Nope.

In the past two years with our coach we've had one set of 300 yards in which we were told to pull. My pull buoy is suffering from dry rot, I have to oil it every six months to maintain it's structural integrity.

aquageek
July 8th, 2005, 12:33 PM
Oh, cmon, 330man, can't we have a little fun here?

I freely admit to my tri friends, when they are not abadoning their families for their 4 X daily obsessive workouts, that I couldn't ride a bike to the corner and couldn't run to my mailbox.

Height of hypocricy, that's a little much for some casual ribbing.

Paul Smith
July 8th, 2005, 01:18 PM
Go talk to any half seriouse road cyclist or runner and you'll hear the same thing. I'll never forget being on a ride with a group of roadies when two tri-guys i full regalia hooked up with the group (aero bars, iron man tattoo's, rear seat water bottles, the works).

Not only did they not have a clue about the general etiquette of riding in a group (they tried to sit at the front & "pull" but slowed the group down and they had no idea how to rotate out and hook up on the back), but they we're dangerous.

My expereince is that the mid level and wanna be's that make up the vast majority of the sport are uncoachable (reading an article by Dave Scott then going to the pool is not the same as being coached) and sport way to much attitude.

At the pool recently a small pack cornered me, when I asked what they did hear in Boulder the reply was "Im a triathlete", when they asked me I said I was a sales rep......which generated a reply of "well actually I work for so and so".

There's the difference....mst of us don't define ourselves by what we do for recreation!

lefty
July 8th, 2005, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
You are mistaken.

Lance Armstrong and his one hour power output of 500 watts would beat you and your 100 watts on any road bicycle ever made, including your 10 speed Schwinn from 1970.

When climbing it is a matter of power to weight ratio. Steady watts divided by the weight of rider + bicycle.
You weigh 150 same as Lance possibly.
You ride thre 17 pound new bike
He rides the 50 pound schwinn.
For the sake of argument we'll be kind and say you can hold 200 watts for an hour.

LA = 500 / (150+50) = 2.5 watts per pound.

You = 200 / (150+17) = 1.2 watts per pound.
He'd climb up a hill twice as fast as you would.

On he flats it is power / aero profile. The aero profiles of road bikes have only gotten better by about 20%. Meaning he'd go MUCH MUCH more faster than you would on the flats.


Good stuff. But I disagree with your conclusions: First Lance will perform comparitively better on a hill on my 10 speed than he would on a flat. The simple reason is that over coming gravity is the most significant counter force and that coeeficient will be the same for both of us. But on a flat, the increased friction due to an inferior bike is the most significant counter force and that would not be the same for both of us.

If a rider could generate 375 watts to Lance's 500, and if Lance had to utilize 100 additional watts vs 25 for the given rider because of increased friction (assumed speed of 5 m/sec), and if the bikes were 8 Kilos vs 20 Kilos, I think you will find that the speed would be similar:

LA (500-100)/ 90 K = 4.44
Rider (375-25) / 78 K = 4.48

Now could I generate 375 watts of continuous power? Ehh, probably not anymore. But that is not a level of an elite cyclist only a really good one, and that was kind of the point I was trying to get at! You CAN buy speed.

hrietz
July 8th, 2005, 01:33 PM
I've never understood the "glamour" that many "lay" people seem to associate with the triathalon especially an iron man. When they show the Hawaii Iron Man on TV they always show those people crawling across the finish line in a delirium (undoubtedly having soiled themselves as well). What's the glory in that???

Many of the triathletes that I have the misfortune of training with seem to have this "I am better than you because I swim and bike as well" attitude and because of that they are more deserving of the coaches' time and energy. I don't feel because I have chosen to EXCEL in one sport rather than be mediocre in three that I am any less of an athlete...

Francesco
July 8th, 2005, 01:55 PM
I GUESS THIS ISN'T THE "SWIM FOR PEACE" THREAD.

I would think that all the knowlegeable and experienced swimmers would be pleased to share technique and training tips with the triguys.
It never hurts to do 50's, 100,s etc and with a little instruction most of them will join in willingly.
What's wrong with swimming freestyle most of the time? If your best event is th 1650, it's hard to see how swimming breaststroke is going to be much help.
In my experience , most triguys want to learn proper technique except when it comes to flip turns which they could care less about.
As for the obnoxious ones, we handle them the same way we handle the obnoxious swimmers...

Betsy
July 8th, 2005, 03:15 PM
I believe the coach can make a big difference in how triathletes fit into a workout. Teaching workout etiquette and making sure everyone is in the correct lane are essential.
1. stick to the interval
2. leave 5 sec apart, 10 if there is room, and be consistent
3. move out of the way so the swimmers behind you can finish
4. learn to read the clock - you can't descend or learn pace if you don't look at the clock

Just a few of my pet peeves. I had words with a triathlete last week who wouldn't move out of the way and let me finish.

aquageek
July 8th, 2005, 03:42 PM
I think I must be lucky to have such great lane mates. We've been together long enough now that we just sort of always end up in the correct order depending on the set. If one of us bonks in a hard set, they'll just politely move over. We have our kick leaders, our IM leaders, sprint, mid, long etc leaders. Plus, our coach doesn't take any grief, he sees a laggard and he corrects that pretty quickly.

When I read some folks have lane mates who can't read a clock or won't move over, it makes me realize just how good I have it with our little team.

Michael Heather
July 8th, 2005, 10:53 PM
I agree with Betsy. It is the coach that must be the leader and figure of authority. If that is not done, the entire workout is a mess, tri people or not. If the coach takes power, the tri guys and gals will do what they are told, and make little problem for others.

I have never had any trouble finding the wall at the end of a set, but can understand those who lack the mass and direct approach I bring to the pool. In my case, Mass+ thrust = clear wall to touch, whether or not the offending party is watching my impending finish. A couple of those finishes, and there are no words necessary.

Another thing to consider: Triathletes are very similar to fitness swimmers in their outlook, but are the ones who pay a large part of the bills we competitive swimmers would not be able to touch if we became exclusive in workouts. USMS is comprised of about 80-90% fitness swimmers (that includes triathletes, because they rarely compete at our meets), so remember to smile while you are swimming by that tri geek or lane whale, because without them and their paid up dues, we have nothing to do, nowhere to go.

FishFerBrains
July 8th, 2005, 11:16 PM
..a newbie here, but I couldn't resist....

From a business perspective, triathletes support masters teams that may or may not be able to make it without them. We need 'em.

From a swimmer's perspective, Triathletes may seem "one dimensional", self-centered or even anti-social (come on..swimming IS a social sport isn't it?). Maybe there's a little jealousy here - I think a lot of us wish we could do the "other two" like we swim.

From a coaching perspective, triatheletes are unique animals that bring a different intensity that can be welcome in a workout evironment. So they wear paddles ("beat 'em"); so they only swim freestyle ("beat 'em at breastroke"); so they run 10K at lunch ("join em and beat 'em for the first 2 miles"). It all adds a different flavor to a pool environment and perhaps a fun mental challenge for long-time swimmers.

In my former life, I've had the unique priviledge to coach an Ironman champion and the 2001 USMS swimmer of the year in the same workouts. Sure the triathletes ("all this stroke") and the swimmers ("all they do is freestyle") grumbled; but the coexisted quite well in separate lanes in the same pool. As Betsy stated, it's about proper workout management - that's the coach's responsibility.

Both types of athletes are unique racehorses and I offer that each provide an opportunity for motivation and inspiration that crosses disciplines. Viva La Difference! I say.

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 9th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Why are so many of you such awful, small-minded people. Most people who are members never race in a meet, and there are many who don't do laps. At least most triatheletes do some type of racing!

As far as I know, our membership is open to people who swim. I've never come across any real membeship limitations. Are there any? I think it is terrible that some of you think that you should be able to pick & choose who we should allow into our membership and how they must behave. That is exactly why so many nonswimmers think that swimmers are immature and silly.

Many people I speak with about joining USMS tell me that they see no reason to join the organization becasue it does nothing for them. I frequently wonder why I pay my dues. We are suppose to promote swimming, not putting peole down becaseu they don't fit into what we want them to fit into. Recently, the only guy who has even considered joining is a triathelete.

kernow
July 9th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Hey, why all of the contempt for tri guys?

We have some on our team and we all get along great. On my last team, they were all tri people, but the real pains in the @@@ just got their own distance lanes and left us alone.

OK- so they can be a bit cliquey, but they're not so bad. ;)

kernow
July 9th, 2005, 02:45 PM
"that tri geek or lane whale"


Ouch! That hurts, really hurts... We all can't be skinny, you know.

Peter Cruise
July 9th, 2005, 03:02 PM
I think that the people who are getting upset about this thread probaly have never read (or understood) Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal".

newmastersswimmer
July 10th, 2005, 12:16 AM
My two cents worth (which is never actually worth 2 entire cents btw!!):

I think that this thread was started as just a playful ribbing type thing?....It seems like the GoodSmith just likes to start some threads to stir up a little activity (like a heated debate sometimes)....kinda like stepping on an ant bed or knocking down a hornets nest.....I didn't get the impression that anyone actually felt real contempt towards our triathelete brothers and sisters out there (but then again...it is the GoodSmith...so who really knows??)....I work out with just a few other guys in our small community...and swimming is probably the least popular sport of all possible sports here (on every level including high school sports and age group sports etc...).....One of the guys that I work out with regularly is a triathelete.....He is definitely the most dedicated (and hard working) swimmer in our group (besides me that is).....He is a real good guy and I get along very well with him (I did from the very start in fact...He is now a good friend).... BUT, I still found some of the ribbing against triatheletes funny on this thread b/c I could see some of those triathelete stereotypes mentioned on this thread in my friend.....I think people should be able to laugh a little at eachother and our differences in jest without taking it too personally (BTW, ...did I use "too" correctly this time Knelson??...or should I have used "to" instead there?....Honestly...I just took a wild guess at it there?).

That's all I wanted to say.

Peace and harmony folks,

Newmastersswimmer

Conniekat8
July 10th, 2005, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by kernow

OK- so they can be a bit cliquey, but they're not so bad. ;)

Just some friendly razzing on the account of their cliqueiness

Michael Heather
July 10th, 2005, 01:50 AM
I think it is odd that the tri folk spend some of their time at swimming workout talking about a Sunday run tomorrow. Do they also get together on their run to talk about Monday morning swim practice? And why is it they are doing so much talking, anyway? That takes away energy best used on making the next set of 12 x 300 with paddles, buoys, fins, nike crosstrainers and carbon graphite water bottles.

kernow
July 10th, 2005, 05:54 AM
"I think that this thread was started as just a playful ribbing type thing?...."

What, I'm supposed to have a sense of humour? :D

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 10th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Michael Heather
I think it is odd that the tri folk spend some of their time at swimming workout talking about a Sunday run tomorrow. Do they also get together on their run to talk about Monday morning swim practice? And why is it they are doing so much talking, anyway? That takes away energy best used on making the next set of 12 x 300 with paddles, buoys, fins, nike crosstrainers and carbon graphite water bottles.

Actually they do. Many of my friends who do tri's talk about how hard our swimming workouts are all the tiem. Soem even brag that thyecan kep up!

upswim
July 11th, 2005, 02:31 PM
I am a former competitive swimmer (through college) turned triathlete.

I hate the generalizations that triathletes are mediocre at 3 events. I happen to be a very strong swimmer (always in the top % out of the water) and a strong cyclist. Running is my weakest of the 3. So what if I choose to do triathlons and not just swim exclusively? Why should it matter to anyone else?

Our Masters swims are great. Sure, there are a lot of triathletes, but no one has a beef with anyone else.

People need to lighten up. If someone enjoys doing triathlons or just swimming, great. Let them do it and keep your opinion to yourself.

Swimmer Bill
July 11th, 2005, 02:54 PM
It may be a little unfair to make this point using a generalization about all triathletes. Certainly, there are some triathletes who feel they can change things to suit their needs in group workout environments -- but not all triathletes do that. There are many people who feel they can alter group workouts regardless of the coach or others in the group. Trust me, that group includes many people who are not triathletes.

Speaking as a retired coach and Masters swimmer who occasionally visits group workouts, I feel that anyone who significantly alters a coached, group workout should probably consider lap swim instead of group workouts. If I go to a group workout, my procedure is to try my very best to respect the coach and other swimmers, and do what the coach asks. If I know I feel like doing my own thing, I do lap swim.

Changing a specific workout to all freestyle, using equipment constantly when no equipment is called for, or making other significant changes is unfair to the other swimmers, and it's unfair to the coach.

That's my 2 cents.
Swimmer Bill

Peter Cruise
July 11th, 2005, 03:28 PM
Dear Upswim- perhaps lightening up would do you some good as well.

osterber
July 11th, 2005, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Swimmer Bill
using equipment constantly when no equipment is called for,

I think that 'regular' masters swimmers are far more guilty of that than any group of tris you'll ever find. Masters swimming is home of the unnecessary equipment. You'd think masters swimmers couldn't function without a pull buoy on.

(I'm not a tri, and I never use a pull buoy.)

-Rick

beireland
July 11th, 2005, 07:44 PM
I don't know how to let everyone know this, but USMS is losing out to the UST(or whatever their organizing body is). The largest open water swims are all triathalons. OK, they aren't a pure swim but there are a lot more and they have more competitors. I can't tell you why its easier to get people to sign up to try to master three sports than a single one but it is.

Most masters team have a large tri contingent. Mine does. Tthe underlying question of why triathalons are growing rapidly and masters swimming isn't, is something that we need to recognize. I don't know why. Is it more satisfying to get slaughtered in a triathalon than in a pool meet or open water swim because there is a greater assumption of accomplishment associated with completion of a tri? I don't know.

Sam Perry
July 11th, 2005, 08:32 PM
I hate the generalizations that triathletes are mediocre at 3 events.

It was a joke. My gosh, lighten up. I have many triathlete friends and swim with them when they show up. People get so uptight these days...

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 11th, 2005, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by beireland
I don't know how to let everyone know this, but USMS is losing out to the UST(or whatever their organizing body is). The largest open water swims are all triathalons. OK, they aren't a pure swim but there are a lot more and they have more competitors. I can't tell you why its easier to get people to sign up to try to master three sports than a single one but it is.

Most masters team have a large tri contingent. Mine does. Tthe underlying question of why triathalons are growing rapidly and masters swimming isn't, is something that we need to recognize. I don't know why. Is it more satisfying to get slaughtered in a triathalon than in a pool meet or open water swim because there is a greater assumption of accomplishment associated with completion of a tri? I don't know.

I don't really know how USMS gets new members. I'm always surprised when I come across someone who has actually heard of us. Most of the people I swim around were at one time members but felt they got nothingout of the organization but some workouts.

Many tri's aren't life-long swimmers. I really think that they make huge improvements when thye coem and worout with swimmers. At least most of the tri's I know do. We have a mini-tri in September, our lanes get so much more business then.

Michael Heather
July 12th, 2005, 12:43 AM
You get out of the sport (and USMS in particular) what you put into it. The many triathletes and fitness swimmers are not interested in anything more than going to the pool for exercise, then going home, or to the next practice.

They may not see what USMS does for them, but only because they don't realize that without USMS, there would be precious few places open for them to train. USMS could be the reason that Triathlons even exist (USMS has been around since 1970). No age group teams would allow the shenanigans triathletes are accused of on this forum.

There are very few (if any) pure tri folk or fitness swimmers trying to open pool time or running workouts or volunteering their time to make USMS run. That doesn't happen automatically. As I inferred in an earlier post, They pay the bills, the competitive swimmers run the show (because someone has to). It is a mutually beneficial symbiosis, even if some do not appreciate it.

FindingMyInnerFish
July 12th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Well, I'm not a triathlete, but I came to swimming recently with mainly a running background. I'm not fast as either a runner or a swimmer, but I love both sports and want to learn as much as possible about how to improve my performance in both.

My masters' workouts now are pretty much on my own since the official masters' practices aren't being run during the summer at my pool. The coach e-mails us workouts which we do independently. I will admit that IM workouts are my toughest ones, but if they're what's assigned, I do them as best I can. (And I will say I've made some progress at butterfly...couldn't even last the length of a pool the first time I tried. I can hang in longer now, but it's not pretty.)

Also when we do workouts together, whatever he says we're doing, I'm willing. I'm there to learn something, so whatever's being offered, it's an opportunity.

Flip turns: I ENVIED the more experienced swimmers their ability to do flip turns and celebrated finally being able to do one myself. (I still need some work on my technique, but I once thought I'd never master this skill.) In fairness to triathletes, many of my triathlete friends work hard at their swimming and are not only willing but eager to try the different strokes and the flip turns. Several I know swim in meets as well as triathlons. As for me...as I mentioned in the aquathlon thread, I don't see myself getting into triathlons b/c the bike investment is huge and my balance not too great, but a friend is doing Ironman Lake Placid this year--and has really come a long way in all three of the sports, putting in a lot of training, abt 4000 or so yards per swim, century bike rides, 60-70 running miles per week.... My swim coach--whose background is primarily swimming (on his college swim team and a school leader in distance swims)--has recently branched out into triathlons and is planning on a full ironman next year. I say more power to him!

Whatever gets ya movin'!

ggawboy
July 12th, 2005, 10:19 PM
We have some triathletes on my team and they don't exhibit any of the ettiquette breaches mentioned earlier in this thread. All the triathletes swim the workouts as they are written on the board.

After reading the other posts it made me wonder what the difference is? Perhaps it is because two of the better triathletes on our team are awesome IM swimmers?

As one of my team's coaches said when reporting the results of an open water swim with well over 100 participants.

Congrats to NAME_OBSCURED. First place in his age group and fifth overall out of N people - that's awesome! That's N-5 people who clearly didn't do enough butterfly.

Alicia Parr
July 28th, 2005, 10:09 PM
Triathlon: Why excel at one sport when you can be mediocre in 3?

Or, why be mediocre at one sport when you can be mediocre at three, and thereby above average in triathlon. There is some talent in being able to do all 3 things.

I've seen these types of discussions on running forums. "Excellence" is relative. I'm sure there are more talented swimmers that could make the same criticism of the Masters Swimmers that make that broad brush statement of triathletes. While some triathletes come from a swimming background and understand the workout ground rules, many don't and struggle with learning technique, ground rules, everything that us swimmers had years to pick up as children without the pressure to keep up.

Just my 2 cents...as an ex-swimmer, now triathlete.

Sam Perry
July 29th, 2005, 01:01 AM
It was a joke! Lighten up, discussions do not always have to be serious.

TomH
July 29th, 2005, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by lefty
The problem is, you can buy speed in the bike portion. If I switched bikes with Lance Armstrong he would have a hard time keeping up with me (and I am not saying that for effect. It really is true).


Wow. Unless you rode the tour this year, and the bike you're switching with Lance wieghs about 200 pounds, that was complete crap.

TomH
July 29th, 2005, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by 330man
Jeff,
I am so glad you made that comment. I was tempted to say that this thread is the height of hipocrisy. Oops, there it went. Anyhow, don't you all think that triathletes think that we are missing out on cycling or running? I would imagine they think of themselves as having a more balanced workout. Maybe they are wrong and maybe they are right. Either way it does not really matter. What matters is that we as swimmers should be a bit more tolerant of athletes who choose a different path than we do. Do yourselves and the sport of swimming a favor, welcome athletes from all backgrounds. The more people involved in swimming the better it will be for all of us.

That kind of logic and tolerance has no place in a Troll-induced thread like this! Shame on you!

jonblank
July 29th, 2005, 09:12 AM
"Or, why be mediocre at one sport when you can be mediocre at three, and thereby above average in triathlon. There is some talent in being able to do all 3 things". - Alicia Parr

Why not extend that analogy to IM? One could be simply mediocre in all four competitive strokes, and yet adequate in IM. Most competitors have at least one "bad" IM component that hinders their overall performance. I speak from experience on this - backstroke and I just don't get along.

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 29th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Here in Galesburg, we have a minitri in September. teh swimmign is only 400 yds. I always wonder why bother! Anyway yesterday a few of the participants began to practice their swimming. they don't swim all year then wonder why they're no good. The ask some of the dumbest questions. But I'm glad to be in a pool with other people!

TheGoodSmith
July 29th, 2005, 12:57 PM
I'm thinking of briefly entering the "other" world and swimming on a triathlon relay in September.

I may swim over the top of a few triathletes on the start and take it out hard so they can't catch me. I'll wear some fistacuffs for the start. Someone needs to remind them they have puny upper bodies and can't swim. Having a 43 year old sprinter beat them should provide some much needed humiliation..... :-)


John Smith

Paul Smith
July 29th, 2005, 02:43 PM
Yeah John, they all looked really scard when you showed up to swim at the Resevoir the other night sporting wing tips and a cheap suit!!!

Tell the truth, the only reason you are going for this is an outside shot at making some money on a lame bet!

Triflorida
July 29th, 2005, 04:27 PM
OK, so I was thinking seriously about joining our local masters swim group, came to this forum to find out some info., saw this thread, read it and am now thinking I don't want to belong to a group who doesn't want me there for any reason other than the collection of my membership dues. I'm sure if you came to our local tri club and expressed an interest in doing a triathlon, you would get an overwhelming response of support from other club members. Everywhere I seem to go - the local running club, local group rides of cyclists- the response is the same. I always identify myself as a triathlete and always seem to get the cold shoulder. I have never made any waves about it and don't intend to. But, I also won't join and support any groups who really don't want me there, no matter how unfounded their opinions are. Thanks for shedding some light!
Pete

Alicia Parr
July 29th, 2005, 04:33 PM
"Or, why be mediocre at one sport when you can be mediocre at three, and thereby above average in triathlon. There is some talent in being able to do all 3 things". - Alicia Parr

Why not extend that analogy to IM? One could be simply mediocre in all four competitive strokes, and yet adequate in IM. Most competitors have at least one "bad" IM component that hinders their overall performance. I speak from experience on this - backstroke and I just don't get along.


Hah! Good analogy. I always did enjoy the IM, especially the 400, even if the backstroke portion was all about minimizing the damage so I could attack on the breastroke! :) Too bad they didn't have 800 IM's, 1000 IM's. Then I could have been pretty good.

Alicia Parr
July 29th, 2005, 04:40 PM
OK, so I was thinking seriously about joining our local masters swim group, came to this forum to find out some info., saw this thread, read it and am now thinking I don't want to belong to a group who doesn't want me there for any reason other than the collection of my membership dues. I'm sure if you came to our local tri club and expressed an interest in doing a triathlon, you would get an overwhelming response of support from other club members. Everywhere I seem to go - the local running club, local group rides of cyclists- the response is the same. I always identify myself as a triathlete and always seem to get the cold shoulder. I have never made any waves about it and don't intend to. But, I also won't join and support any groups who really don't want me there, no matter how unfounded their opinions are. Thanks for shedding some light!

Oh, don't take these comments that way. Some comments are knuckleheaded, but mostly in jest. Pure runners, road cyclists, and masters swimmers all have their idiosyncratic way of doing things. If you express a genuine interest in trying to learn & understand those ways, you'll be welcomed and appreciated. It's like travelling to another country and showing some willingness to try the local language, even if you butcher it. The effort is appreciated. It can be frustrating when the occasional triathlete comes in and disregards the "rules of the road", since these rules are there for practical reasons.

aquageek
July 29th, 2005, 04:47 PM
As long as you learn the secret USMS handshake and chant, you may join a USMS practice. The hazing comes a few weeks thereafter.

Francesco
July 29th, 2005, 04:48 PM
I agree with Alice . The are always a few that complain and always a few that are willing to exxplain the routine and be helpful.

ITri4VT
July 29th, 2005, 08:18 PM
1. To be a really fast triathlete, you have to be able to swim with the top SWIMMERS, ride with the top CYCLISTS, and run with the top RUNNERS. There's nothing mediocre in that.

2. Fast triathletes train with members of the individual sports... swimming with a club team, cycling on a team in bike races, and running with a running club.

3. I'd rather swim with a USS club team than with a masters team. Every masters team I've tried isn't enough volume or intensity for my needs.

4. Y'all may think that triathletes are cult-ish and selfish. I call myself selfish, sure, but a better word would be "dedicated." It is not easy to fit in all the training and still get the needed rest.

5. I think of the most fun things to do is to beat people at a race in their sport. Open water swims, cycling criteriums, and running road races. Wanna race??

oh and dont tell me to lighten up. I don't care that much ;)

Sam Perry
July 29th, 2005, 11:21 PM
As far as the IM analogy goes, it is not a good one. Last time I saw an IM it was all the same sport. Different strokes in swimming are not different sports.

Secondly, if I had known how uptight people on here are, I would have never said a thing. If someone can't take a JOKE and decides not to to masters swimming, I say someone that uptight couldn't handle a workout anyway.

This is supposed to be fun, I think "The Good Smith" started in jest and people are just way too sensitive!

Peter Cruise
July 30th, 2005, 12:09 AM
Sam. I agree. Some people tighten their goggles way too much. We've been having some fun, you don't like it, sorry, but not too much.

Michael Heather
July 30th, 2005, 12:32 AM
oh and dont tell me to lighten up. I don't care that much

If you didn't care so much, you would not have posted anything.

Sorry if you were offended about this thread. I am sure that it was started mostly in jest, just to gripe about something. Fact is, there are plenty of "swimmer only" athletes that are just as guilty of being rude or clueless in the practice lanes.

And the honest truth is that triathletes, while in terrific physical condition, by the very nature of their sport cannot compete with the top athletes in the other individual sports.

One of the earliest top tri people was David Scott, who was a swimmer to start his career.

And I reiterate a prior point : without Masters swimming, there would likely not be a triathlon sport. We were here first, and made it possible for tri people to train in pools. If you are over 25 and training tri, don't bother trying to practice with a USA Swimming team, they mostly won't have time or space for you.

Tom Ellison
July 30th, 2005, 12:57 AM
Mike said it best.....

PLEASE come and be a part of US Masters Swimming.....We could care less if you are a triathlon swimmer...or a lamp post....Swimming is the bottom line......Swimming is the ONLY line....PLEASE remember that!

Run, jump & swim is great.....swimming is even better.....and USMS LOVES THEM ALL.....Bottom line.....

DOOR 1.....DOOR 2.....or.....DOOR 3......if it is swimming related....COME ON DOWN.....!

Swimming is what we are about....! All the other high brow nonsense is just that....NONSENSE!

Phil Arcuni
July 30th, 2005, 01:01 AM
I love the triathletes on my team (on this as on many other teams, there would not be much of a team without the triathletes.) I find them fun, fast, and know the culture (but I also swim with the best swimmers of the triathletes.)

The reason a person going to a triathlon team would be "always welcome" is because that person wants to become a triathlete. However, a few triathletes join a swimming team because they want to be a triathlete, not a swimmer.

If I were to join a running team, but announced that I joined because I wanted to be a better swimmer, and because of that I would only do track repeats, no matter what the rest of the team was doing, I don't think I would be all that welcome, at least sometimes.

There is a swimming culture that needs to be learned, and some people take a little longer -- they need to be convinced, somehow, that strokes are worth doing, and sprints need rest, for example.

There is also a very irrational issue. It is, for some reason, very irritating for many swimmers when someone decides to, for example, use fins during a non fin set, or swim freestyle when everyone else is struggling with butterfly or an IM. This irritation is there even if the intervals are not affected. I'm not sure why, but I hear the comments fairly often.

Triathlete
July 30th, 2005, 05:00 AM
I find this topic rather amusing!! Im a full-time athlete, at the age of 17 Im currently swimming 4.17 for 400m free, run 5km in 15.15 and cycle 10miles in 21.30. I really think you have no idea as to how tough a triathlon actually is or actually how good athletes are in all three disciplines. If all this is "tri-ing" to be an athlete I really would like to know what an athlete actually consists of???

aquageek
July 30th, 2005, 06:49 AM
I like the tris are now showing up to defend their honor. However, they are a little self righteous about this further proving that they need to loosen up the heart rate monitor strap and lighten up a bit.

TomH
July 30th, 2005, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Triathlete
I find this topic rather amusing!! Im a full-time athlete, at the age of 17 Im currently swimming 4.17 for 400m free, run 5km in 15.15 and cycle 10miles in 21.30. I really think you have no idea as to how tough a triathlon actually is or actually how good athletes are in all three disciplines. If all this is "tri-ing" to be an athlete I really would like to know what an athlete actually consists of???

Dang, thanks for reminding me how much I suck in all three disciplines! ;-)

Please make a note to email me your times when you turn 41.

:D

Triflorida
July 30th, 2005, 09:02 AM
"And the honest truth is that triathletes, while in terrific physical condition, by the very nature of their sport cannot compete with the top athletes in the other individual sports."

Many professional triathletes were tops in other individual sports.

Look at the Ironman swim times. 2.4 miles of openwater ocean swimming -under 47:00 and that's not even pushing it. They need to maintain some restraint in the water because after that they have to ride 112 miles and then run a marathon.

Several athletes averaged under a 5:20/mile pace in the run portion last year at the Escape from Alcatraz race (8 mile run), after riding 18 miles in hilly San Fran and swimming 1.5 miles from Alcatraz island across San Francisico Bay (which Simon Lessing did in under 21:00). Sub 5:00/mile would be possible without the swim/bike portion. Pretty elite for a hilly course.

Norman Stadler trained on the bike with T-Mobile last year.

Sheila Taormina has an Olympic medal for swimming in her trophy case.

I won't bore you with more examples because they are almost endless, especially when you compare age groupers'/non-pros' times in tri-events to times put up by age groupers/non pros in individual events (10k running races vs 10k times in an Olympic distance tri etc.). The time gaps between pro triathletes and pro individual sport athletes would be closer in each individual sport than if the individual athlete were to compete against the triathlete in a 3 sport event. Those of you who are name calling ("mediocre athletes") are dead wrong.

And every time we defend ourselves, stop calling us uptight. I understand these saements for the most part are in jest, but did you expect a bunch of competitive crazed people to just roll over?

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 30th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
I'm thinking of briefly entering the "other" world and swimming on a triathlon relay in September.

I may swim over the top of a few triathletes on the start and take it out hard so they can't catch me. I'll wear some fistacuffs for the start. Someone needs to remind them they have puny upper bodies and can't swim. Having a 43 year old sprinter beat them should provide some much needed humiliation..... :-)


John Smith

some might say that you are going to the dark side. Be careful, extremely careful, you might enjoy it!

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 30th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by geochuck
I had a swim this morning, when I got home I had a ride on my neighbours electric wheel chair, she had trouble steering it, I repaired and tightened a bolt that was loose, then ran into the house and poured a coffee (nourishment). That was my tri event this morning.

All kidding aside it is pride in what we do. In 1956 the Canadian heavy weight 8 rowing team won the gold medal. I knew the members of the team. They were great rowers, one had been a swimmer before but he could not make it in swimming that year, only two male swimmers went for Canada. If he had only been a swimmer he would not have gone.

Most of the master swimmers on this forum could not swim 5 min for a 400m and many would be happy if they could do a 400 in 7 min. A lot of us just love to talk. Even one of them had me swimming 400m in 4 minutes in 1956 when I could only do 4:50.

Somewhere here inthe midwest, I've been told that there is a triathalon where instead of doing the bicycle you row. rowinf crew & swimming are very compatible. I row almost every day. I really enjoy it. Most of the time I use a machie but the few times I actually get a skull out on the water is great!

Paul Smith
July 30th, 2005, 04:16 PM
Hey "Triathlete".......as many have pointed out his is mostly having a bit of fun, something that happens on this forum daily.

A coiple of things however to keep in mind:

- This is a forum geared to "masters" swimmers and my guess is that the vast majority here are 40+ (you couldn't even swim in our nationals because your to young).

- Most all have full time jobs and are far past their prime and when we poke fun at Triathletes its not the "elite" who can swim in the fastest lanes but rather the "weekend warrior" version......those that typically have little if any background in any of the 3 disciplines and don't know the "rules".

- Being 17 we'll forgive your spouting off about your times in this venue, but you should know that your swim time might have made the top 5 in the 40-44 age group in masters and there are some 50 yar olds that could whup your butt. By the way....wht is th QT time for USS junior nationals? Have you ever been?

- As outstanding as your overall Tri splits are, especially at your age keep in mind that separately you would have a hard time getting a college scholorship in any of them if you specialized. That may not be important because you may have the talent to go pro....but to keep it in perspective the guy who started this thread was sub 4:00 in the 400 at your age, had a full ride to Texas qualified fo NCAA (Div 1) in every distance of free (50-500), plus the 200IM and 100 fly and went 1:35 in the 200 one year.

- He however couldn't ride a bike without training wheels and like me can't run to the bathroom but what the hey!

- See.......no one here is "safe" and most all of us give/take a lot of abuse....something you'll learn when you get to our age and live on advil, ice packs, massgae, cortisone shots, etc. etc.!

ande
July 30th, 2005, 07:26 PM
personally i like to train with triathletes
i admire their work ethics
plus most of triathlete women tend to look great!

ande

Michael Heather
July 30th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Okay, we have a lot to work with here.


personally i like to with triathletes

What is it you personally like to actually do with triathletes, apparently in a group setting?


plus most of triathlete women tend to look great!

What parts of triathlete women do not look good to you?


i admire their work ethics

Why? What is it about their work ethics that set you on fire? What is wrong with sprinters' swimming taper work ethics? You know, show up late, warm up, do a 50 fast, warm down, go home.

Instead of pablum, how about some details? This is a serious(ly bizzare) thread!

mattson
July 31st, 2005, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
A coiple of things however to keep in mind:
...


Very good post, nailed it on the head. (Do some of these "I'm faster than you" posters make fun of pre-teen swimmers because they are slower, or do they recognize that there may be more than one reason for speed differences?)


Originally posted by ande
plus most of triathlete women tend to look great!
i admire their work ethics

But was "work ethic" your first choice of words? :D (I'd have gone with "abs".)

chris ny
July 31st, 2005, 08:11 PM
wow,
I cant believe the venom of some of these posts.
that swimmer in Co. has a real complex about better athletes the himself. I understand the good natured ribbing (some of which may be true) but this jerk acctually says he is grateful that Tri people are injured most of the time. I think the thin air is gettinjg to his brain. I find the people in my swim group are pretty welcoming and I have improved my swim time each as a result of training with them.
p.s. I consider myself a swimmer because I could do it before I could walk just maybe not as fast as some of you. and the first team I was on was a swim team.

Peter Cruise
July 31st, 2005, 11:38 PM
I...think...that...we...should...end...this...thre ad...'cause...some...
people...are...taking...things...far...too...serio usly

Kerry
August 1st, 2005, 08:29 AM
A link to this discussion was posted on the beginnertriathlete.com message boards, so perhaps many of the new visitors to this thread are from there. It's a situation akin to a newbie stepping into a roomful of people who know each other and seeing a single "trash talk" discussion, taking it seriously, and thinking that's representative of the whole forum.

So maybe we should cut this thread off?

FWIW, I recently joined a master's team after 25 years of not swimming, and there are several triathletes on the team, and everyone seems to get along great. There's no tension at all that I can see. Everyone just swims and has a good time.

mattson
August 1st, 2005, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Kerry
So maybe we should cut this thread off?

There is always the nuclear option... TheGoodSmith made the first post, if he deletes it, the whole thread gets nuked. :eek:

My team is mostly triathletes. Or at the least, many swimmers converted to triathlons. They receive some trash talk about their biking and running abilities (from both sides), but it is in good fun (we want them to succeed).

geochuck
August 1st, 2005, 11:25 AM
I have deleted all of my posts on this topic and will not follow this discussion any more.

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2005, 12:38 PM
Dear TriFlorida and Triathlete,

Welcome to the land of tired old jaded ex-swimmers. Please note, I started this thread as I had a few spare moments before I left for work one day. I tossed out an M80 to see if it would land on anyone...... 7,000 hits later... it appears to have suceeded... :-)

Note: my function in life is to remind Masters Swimmers about the more amusing and the dark sarcastic aspects of the sport. Owning the title of the most irritating individual in US Masters Swimming takes constant work and self pride.... :-) After all, anyone who would name themselves "The Good" anything is inherently not.... :-)

Do join our discussions, we certainly welcome you. You will find we argue amongst ourselves as much or more than we argue with people outside the sport. No one is safe... and nothing is sacred. Don't take too much of this mortar fire seriously.

And by all means please note that throughout the years, Paul Smith, and I have helped MANY triathletes (and masters swimmers) with their stroke technique and training ideas. In return, we merely ask that they allow us to continue to make fun of their lifestyle and generally abuse them .... :-)

Stick around ..... you might learn something about competitive swimming you wished you didn't know.... :-)


John Smith

ande
August 2nd, 2005, 12:53 PM
here's a few who've trained with us

http://images.google.com/images?q=desiree+ficker&hl=en

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=andrea+fisher

http://amandagillam.triathletesonline.com/index.cfm?pp=6

they are tough trainers
I wouldn't mind more

ande

gull
August 2nd, 2005, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Welcome to the land of tired old jaded ex-swimmers.

Who you calling old?

aquageek
August 2nd, 2005, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Owning the title of the most irritating individual in US Masters Swimming takes constant work and self pride.... :-)

You aren't even on the ballot for this honor. Only one person, who shall not be named, is even eligible for this. After all, to refer to yourself as one speed, yet be incapable of that speed, puts you in a class by yourself.

geochuck
August 6th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Change of heart - For the tri athletes

Swim Technique
When considering swimming your freestyle technique (the stroke that triathletes race in) Forget all the other strokes concentrate on your freestyle - Arms, Timing and Breathing

Your leg kick will control your body position in the water, while the arms will provide the propulsive force. The timing of the two is vital to provide greater speed through the water with minimum wasted energy. Finally, your breathing technique should be analysed to ensure when you breathe your technique is not disrupted to cause a breakdown in efficiency.

Freestyle
The main propulsive force of the freestyle stroke is the arm cycle. The legs add at most 15% of the total speed through the water, depending on whether you use a 2-,4-,6-, or 8-beat kick.

Body Position:
In order to keep resistance to a minimum, it is necessary to keep the body as streamlined and horizontal as possible, taking full advantage of propulsive forces. Arm and leg movements used to provide propulsion, add to the resistive forces created, and good technique should be used to keep this ‘active drag’ to a minimum.

Legs:
The legs control the body’s balance and also aid forward propulsion. This power development can be done through improved flexibility of the hips, knees & ankles and also performing kicking sets (long & short).

Arms:
The arms are the main power house in frontcrawl and therefore correct technique is essential to maximising this.

The above are some points to remember when swimming freestyle.

TomH
August 8th, 2005, 06:52 AM
"Body Position:
In order to keep resistance to a minimum, it is necessary to keep the body as streamlined and horizontal as possible, taking full advantage of propulsive forces. Arm and leg movements used to provide propulsion, add to the resistive forces created, and good technique should be used to keep this ‘active drag’ to a minimum."


Just to be clear, this doesn't mean horizontal on every axis. The intent of the paragraph above was to instruct the new swimmer to keep their feet up close to the surface by remaining horzontal along the axis that runs through your waist from one side to the other. At the same time, you should be rotating your body along the other horizontal axis (the one that runs from your head to your toes) with each stroke to gain the most power from each stroke and reduce the chance of shoulder injuries.

geochuck
August 8th, 2005, 09:53 AM
Go's without saying body roll is important.

Nsiceman
August 8th, 2005, 12:22 PM
Is it so hard to actually do flip turns? It is for about 70% of the tri's that swim with our master's team. We are thinking of creating a rule requiring flip turns or a 25 push up penalty for everyone not done.

I think the US Tri associates need to teach their members about how to pass people in a pool and how to be passed. Do not just stop in the middle of the lane, stay in your spot and the swimmer flying up on you will just pass you. This is not the point in which you should accelerate to try and keep from getting passed. Also, know where you are in the pool and where the other swimmers are in your lane, that way you are not shocked that you are getting passed. These are things I learned as a 5 year old, and yet our Tri's are unable to grasp this concept. I used to feel bad about cutting them off when they did not notice me passing them, but since have given up on their ability ever understand how passing should be done.

some_girl
August 8th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Is it so hard to actually do flip turns?

Actually, yes, it can be. I grew up swimming for recreation and just started doing Masters in January. I've made a lot of improvements on all my strokes, but the flip turn just bedevils me. Perhaps if you learned it young, it can be hard to see why it's so hard--there are many things that fall into this category; for instance, I don't understand how many grown adults cannot manage to spell common words correctly--but be assured, for some of us turns are difficult.

Asking that people learn the rules is more than reasonable. But expecting everyone to have your skills is a bit nearsighted. Maybe if it bothers you so much, you could offer to set up a turns clinic for your less advanced teammates.

geochuck
August 8th, 2005, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Nsiceman
Is it so hard to actually do flip turns? It is for about 70% of the tri's that swim with our master's team. We are thinking of creating a rule requiring flip turns or a 25 push up penalty for everyone not done.

Most absurd thing I have ever heard of. I am not a tri athlete and I don't do flip turns all the time and I would not do push ups. You are just thinking of things to push all swimmers away from MASTER SWIM CLUBS not only triathletes. It is not the childrens do as I say club or recieve punishment..

aquageek
August 8th, 2005, 01:10 PM
I agree with geochuck, such terrible manners. Some people can't do pushups and this could cause a medical crisis on the pool deck. I suggest as an alternative they receive 25 lashings with their ever present heart rate monitors. That would be much more humane.

chris ny
August 8th, 2005, 01:10 PM
could it be that they are just new to the group and arent aware of the rules and maybe taking the time to teach them my help everybody. Sometimes people just arent aware of the proper edicate. I have been swimming since I was 5 also yet I was never taught the proper pool edicate until I joined Masters and thankfully all they had to do was tell me. You should be grateful that you dont get the typical reponse that happens in a race. A good elbow or kick to the ribs. we particapate in full contact swimming.
I do like the push ups idea I have to work that one in.

geochuck
August 8th, 2005, 01:14 PM
Hey - if you have the proper coach and they know how to set up their groups no one ever has to pass anybody. If you have the problem fire the coach and get a coach who knows how to organise.

Michael Heather
August 8th, 2005, 08:20 PM
-but be assured, for some of us turns are difficult.
Turns are not difficult. One's ability to accomplish a flip turn is the result of only three things.

1. A coach or teacher to instruct.

2. The willingness and ability of a pupil to learn.

3. Practice.

The deficit in any one of these three areas will severely inhibit the learning and execution of flip turns.

Michael Heather
August 8th, 2005, 08:31 PM
Passing is a simple concept. If there are swimmers who are not cognizant of the others in their lane, it is the responsibility of the coach to remedy the issue before it becomes a problem. If the coach does not act, the other swimmers must act in concert against the offender.

Being passed is something precious few of us will never experience. Get used to it and life is made easier for every one in the lane. Of course, I am preaching to the converted on this DF. Alert the Triathletes.

I guess TI doesn't cover being passed in workout.

FindingMyInnerFish
August 8th, 2005, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Michael Heather
Turns are not difficult. One's ability to accomplish a flip turn is the result of only three things.

1. A coach or teacher to instruct.

2. The willingness and ability of a pupil to learn.

3. Practice.

The deficit in any one of these three areas will severely inhibit the learning and execution of flip turns.

To this I'd add, 4. a touch of sang-froid....I think that's the problem that keeps coming up for me in flip turns (as I posted in another thread). Got spooked by a mangled turn that had me almost banging my head and gave me a leg cramp. I'm not giving up, though. Trying the suggestions offered on the other thread--and probably will still need to have my coach talk me through a few when he comes back in Sept.

Boe Clark
August 10th, 2005, 04:33 PM
At least you are passionate, albeit misguided "Grasshopper".
As a newbie to Masters swimming, and this site, I'll be nice. Suffice it to say that at lest a few triathletes come from a swimming background. I love to grab an ankle of a non-swimmer and give em a good yank backwards during the swim-leg. No way to get the heart rate jumping like swallowing a little water at the start of a race!

By the way, when you think you're in shape - step up to multi-sport events. I bet your HR has not seen the numbers it will push in a tri. You are probably a "one dimensional" athlete though, eh??? In a triathlon, whatever advantage you might gain on the swim will quickly evaporate if the only skills you have are waterborne.

S/B/R in tri-shoes before you critique grasshopper.

aquageek
August 10th, 2005, 04:40 PM
This is why this thread continues to amuse. We poke fun at triathletes and they get all defensive and crazed.

I'm quite proud of my one dimensional status. That way I only have to make excuses for stinking at one sport and not the three that most tris have to.

gull
August 10th, 2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Boe Clark
By the way, when you think you're in shape - step up to multi-sport events. I bet your HR has not seen the numbers it will push in a tri. You are probably a "one dimensional" athlete though, eh??? In a triathlon, whatever advantage you might gain on the swim will quickly evaporate if the only skills you have are waterborne.

S/B/R in tri-shoes before you critique grasshopper.

First of all, this is the website of United States Masters Swimming, so if some of our members wish to critique triathletes, this would be a reasonable forum in which to do so.

Second, regarding heart rates, I reach 180 during some of my workouts, which is higher than my age predicted max (173).

Boe Clark
August 10th, 2005, 04:57 PM
The reparte is enjoyable, even if we should really be offended.

Wouldn't a reasobale person assume that single discipline athletes having greater knowledge/skill base in their discipline. Would it not be unusual if the opposite were true?

Snobbery based on the exclusivity of being a 'swimmer' or 'triathlete' or 'cyclist' is humorous though. It's about challenging yourself mates. Not about how much more knowledgable you are that someone newer to your chosen discipline. Hello, McFly. How about you offer some advice, be a leader, give the newbies some direction.

Hey, btw, i'd like to see a line of elitist sentiment regarding backstroke flipturns! Even some of my college teammates stunk at backstroke turns. Perhaps someone can rant about tri's banging their heads on the wall while attempting back turns!!! Wouldn't that be fun, boys?

Allen Stark
August 10th, 2005, 05:43 PM
It's ridiculous to refer to swimmers as one dimensional.I'm not one dimensional.I have quite a broad range of athletic skills,I swim 50,100, and 200 breaststroke.(People who do several sports or even several strokes are seekers,only breaststrokers have found enlightenment.)

justforfun
August 10th, 2005, 05:45 PM
Hello, McFly. How about you offer some advice, be a leader, give the newbies some direction.

Check out how many of the threads in this DF begin with:
"I'm a newbie..." or
"Need help with..." or
"Just started swimming and..." or
"I'm a triathlete, please help me swim faster but I don't want to know anything about starts, turns, streamlining, butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke, or individual medley..."

Boe Clark
August 10th, 2005, 06:08 PM
o.k, so what's with the tri-bashing thread? Curious. Maybe its just a few bad apples.

I think I'm the only sucker that waded into these murky, shark infested waters. First time on USMS site and its populated with 'tri haters'.

My approach is to swim with swimmers (my upbringing), run with runners, and bike with bikers. Learn from the good ones in each discipline, regardless of background.

Peace to all. No worries mates.

FindingMyInnerFish
August 10th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Boe Clark
o.k, so what's with the tri-bashing thread? Curious. Maybe its just a few bad apples.

I think I'm the only sucker that waded into these murky, shark infested waters. First time on USMS site and its populated with 'tri haters'.

My approach is to swim with swimmers (my upbringing), run with runners, and bike with bikers. Learn from the good ones in each discipline, regardless of background.

Peace to all. No worries mates.

As a runner who recently got hooked on masters' swimming (also fairly new to this site), I'd say this thread was tame compared to some I've seen on letsrun.com. Swimmers generally are nice ppl so when they try (tri?) to be harsh, the grains of salt show. ;)

TomH
August 10th, 2005, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
This is why this thread continues to amuse. We poke fun at triathletes and they get all defensive and crazed.

I'm quite proud of my one dimensional status. That way I only have to make excuses for stinking at one sport and not the three that most tris have to.

Interesting. So, you're poking fun, they're defensive and crazed. Is it possible that you're poking fun, they in turn are poking back, and now you're the one being defensive?

Just curious...

Michael Heather
August 10th, 2005, 09:59 PM
My approach is to swim with swimmers (my upbringing), run with runners, and bike with bikers. Learn from the good ones in each discipline, regardless of background.
So Boe knows what to do.

This thread was started for those of the Tri stripe who, TI bible in hand, refuse to get along with the very people who are trying to help them. Will not swim anything but freestyle (distance at that), refuse to be passed in a civilized manner, disdain start and turn technique or etiquette, and talk over the coach. You apparently do not fit this category, so you are immune to the rants. Those who fit the profile probably do not surf this part of the web, anyway.

Xenadiva
August 10th, 2005, 10:50 PM
I have noticed when I run into triathletes in the pool they are in general not the best swimmers....some of them are not bad......and a few are good at swimming......

But on the whole I have noticed that triathletes have a very, very, competitive edge that is fierce (I prefer a swimmer's competitive edge. We're competitive, but we won't kill each other).....

I recently got someone at work to swim in a USMS open water swim (Coney Island, NY)....She had only swam in triathlon swims before....but one thing she noticed was that when we started the other swimmers were not trying to climb all over you, punch you and fight you to the finish.....people said they were sorry if they bumped into you and if you were colliding with someone they changed course......It was a totally different experience for her.....and yes she swam with a wet-suit.....but that's O.K. with me.

Besides in all of the Open Water swims I have been in if you are in a wet-suit you don't qualify for awards....and one race I have been in had separate categories for wet-suits and non-wet-suits.

I think anyone that joins a masters swim team should be open to learn any new thing they can....new stroke, drill, turn, etc. Any of these things can make you a stronger swimmer, even if you are just going to swim open water events.......I keep trying to explain to people that it's important to do flip turns because it takes strength to do them and it makes you stronger......

Well no sense beating your head against a wall.....
Those who chose to learn will.....

-Keep on Swimming ;)

chris ny
August 11th, 2005, 09:26 AM
well said fellow New Yorker,
on flip turns, I have been doing overhanded flips and recently started underhand. I find it a little hard to get used to. any advantage to either?
also Butterfly, what is the motion for my arms once they enter the water? I dont feel like I am maximizing my power and I am not getting a good rythm. after three laps I fall apart. it is not my strength or endourance so it must be my technic.

Linny
August 11th, 2005, 09:32 AM
Sorry - what is the difference between and overhand and an underhand flip turn?

Matt S
August 11th, 2005, 12:05 PM
Michael,

I accept your previous criticism of TI advocates who think reading the book makes them more knowledgable than coaches with years of experience (guilty). Humorous and on the mark.

But hang on there, big fella. Confusing aerobocop, endorfiends, "don't talk to me about technique, just gimme yards, man, more yards," triathletes with we effete, double-ginsing-mocha-expresso swilling, yoga posing total immersion fans who drill to the exclusion of any conditioning, is a bit like confusing Communists and Fascists. Please, we both have our flaming eccentricities, but they are not the same thing!

Flip turns: yes it is a cool skill to have, and you definitely want good flip turns for pool races. But, someone please esplain to me why a triathlete who only does open water swimming has any use for them? For an individual like that, I would much rather have them learn how to do a sound, quick, streamlined open turn (that will avoid problems with their lane mates) and spend their mental energy learning the strokes well, instead of spending time and mental effort correcting a lousy flip turn, which they will only use in practice. You can make the same argument about the other strokes; I would argue back that swimming the other strokes well will do more to improve your freestyle that simply swimming free all the time. I've heard this from numerous people after they put more stroke yardage in their workouts.

In the words of the world-famous Rodney King, can't we all (swimmers, tri-guys, skateboarders, corpulent lap swimmers, nice little ole ladies with perfectly coiffed blue hair they don't want to get wet during water aerobics) just get along?

Memo to the field: poking fun at other people goes down a lot easier if you poke fun at yourself at the same time.

Matt

TheGoodSmith
August 11th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Matt S

If you train in a pool you really need to learn to do a flip turn as it maintains your momentum during training. If you train in a lake full time then don't bother with learning a turn.

When in Rome................ flip.


John Smith

geochuck
August 11th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Goodsmith

You a right again, triathletes should do flip turns if they can when training in a pool as you learn the skill of streamlining and keeping the momentum going. However it is a useless effort in the lake or ocean. But they have gained the feeling of speed which they may be able to transfer to their swimming in open water.

scyfreestyler
August 11th, 2005, 12:27 PM
Flip turns might also benefit the open water swimmer by depriving them of their extra dose of oxygen at the end of every lap. When I started doing flip turns last year it cut down on the amount of yardage I could perform continuously because I was not getting that extra breath at every turn.

chris ny
August 11th, 2005, 03:52 PM
an over hand flip like throwing a ball over your shoulder and an underhand is like throwing a softball pitch. and the underhand is sort of done to finish the flip. l I picked this up atmy masters calss class from someone in the fast lane. I seem to have a hard time with it.
so here is a triathlete actually asking swimming advice and trying to learn and you guys are still launching airstrikes. ( which I have come to enjoy) how about a little input?
by the way I draw the line with skateboarders there is nothing endearing about them at all the are like wheeled locusts.

aquageek
August 11th, 2005, 04:21 PM
With all due respect, well not really, I've been swimming a while and no coach has ever referred to overhand or underhand flip turns. That could be the reason for asking the question, not our desire to learn from you. We have ande for that.

Linny
August 11th, 2005, 04:35 PM
I asked the question because I had never heard either of the terms. I'm still not sure I understand the difference between the two - in an underhand flip are you suggesting an underwater partial recovery on the final stroke. I have never heard of this before (mind you I have never played softball - it's not summat we do in Scotland ;) .)

chris ny
August 11th, 2005, 04:39 PM
it is the only way I could explain a problem I am having.
I will ask my coach when he gets back in september.

you really have to love swimming it is the only sport where even the morbidly obese can excel.

Phil Arcuni
August 11th, 2005, 04:44 PM
you really have to love swimming it is the only sport where even the morbidly obese can excel.

Golf, bowling, sumo wrestling, darts, tiddlywinks, arm wrestling, NASCAR . . . I am sure we can think of some more.

geochuck
August 11th, 2005, 04:47 PM
I never worried about underhand or overhand I do my flip turns with my head and dropping whichever shouder is forward the opposite arm pushes up to assist in the flip and both arms end up in the forward streamline position ready for me to push off.

aquageek
August 11th, 2005, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by chris ny
you really have to love swimming it is the only sport where even the morbidly obese can excel.

Name one single morbidly obese swimmer that excels.

Don't forget the NFL, shot put, heavy weight boxing division, etc

Phil Arcuni
August 11th, 2005, 04:55 PM
You realize, Farney, that morbidly obese swimmers only excel when compared to triathletes.

geochuck
August 11th, 2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Name one single morbidly obese swimmer that excels.

Don't forget the NFL, shot put, heavy weight boxing division, etc I hate to say this but in my prime I would start the season at 275 lbs and would be down to 230 lbs by the end of the season, when I was racing in the marathon races. I won as much and more than the trim and fit guys. Now did I excel I don't really know.

chris ny
August 11th, 2005, 05:06 PM
thank you Chuck I will keep that in mind.

chris ny
August 11th, 2005, 05:09 PM
i dont want to get into what is and isn't a sport like Golf or bowling so I will concede that I may have forgotten one or two. I guess you are in good company.

chris ny
August 11th, 2005, 05:14 PM
tell me about why do think i have to wear the wetsuit its hard to stay afloat with only a 7% body fat. I am not as lucky as some.

aquageek
August 11th, 2005, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by chris ny
tell me about why do think i have to wear the wetsuit its hard to stay afloat with only a 7% body fat. I am not as lucky as some.

Try moving your arms and legs. Swimmers call this stroking and kicking.

Wet suits are for the weak, or triathletes, take your pick.

Blue Horn
August 11th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Aqua,

A little warning next time, please. I spit half a can of Coke onto my laptop.

chris ny,

I don't know of a single morbidly obese person that could come close to completing a serious swim team workout. Then again, since you need a floating device to help you swim, your idea of excelling at swimming probably differs significantly from mine.

Also, I know of plenty of fast swimmers with similar body fat percentages that do not need a wet suit to float them. However, if you need help floating I would suggest the purchase of some water wings. They have really worked well for my 16 month old daughter.

Hook'em
Blue

chris ny
August 12th, 2005, 08:01 AM
I tried the wings but they chaffe I'm looking for an adult size bubble. maybe that will help

geochuck
August 12th, 2005, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by chris ny
I tried the wings but they chaffe I'm looking for an adult size bubble. maybe that will help They come in three sizes s - m - l, I think the large one will be fine??? http://www.swimbuoy.com/ We used these in our swimming school.

gull
August 12th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Why do you suppose the swim portion of a tri is the shortest segment and always comes first?

Nsiceman
August 12th, 2005, 12:42 PM
Apparantly some can not take a little joke, all in fun.

Our small master's team has limited room, so flip turns and passing our important. We have passed on information on passing.

As for having a coach make sure people swim with like abilities, kidn of tough with limited space and even when faster swimmers are together, a good amount of passing still exisits. I would love to be able to have an 8 lane long course pool, but that is never going to happen, we are lucky to get two lanes long course.

Oh yeah... Why do tri's complain when a work out is not all freestyle? Doing all four strokes will not only work more muscles, but will also get you in swimming shape faster.

As for adults not knowing how to spell, that is why Microsoft invented spell checker (F7)

geochuck
August 12th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Oh yeah... Why do tri's complain when a work out is not all freestyle? Doing all four strokes will not only work more muscles, but will also get you in swimming shape faster.

All the more muscles to become sore.

TomH
August 12th, 2005, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Why do you suppose the swim portion of a tri is the shortest segment and always comes first?

A couple of reasons. The first is the one you were after. Triathletes as a whole are not great swimmers, particularly in the sprint distance races. As you might imagine, many have a background in just one sport, mostly runners who are picking up cycling and swimming. For most of them, a 500 to 800 yard swim is more than enough of a challenge.

The second reason is also a practical one. The swim course takes the most volunteers, costs the most to keep open with paid lifeguards, and is the most dangerous if a particpant gets in trouble. If it was the second or third event, participants would be much more spread out, harder to track, and the swim course would have to be maintained longer.

When you move up in distance, say to olympic, 1/2 Iron, or Ironman distance, the average swimming skill improves, but the second reason becomes the overriding factor.

Frank Thompson
August 13th, 2005, 11:08 AM
I will add another observation about the order and why swimming is first. Tom H is correct in everying he stated and the big concerns of safety. You would not want to have swimming last or in the middle because athletes could be tired and the risks are higher for danager. There are dangers in the other two disciplines but medical attention could be done quicker on land than at sea.

The reason the triathlon distances are set the way they are is the person that invented the Iron Man triathlon combined the 3 toughest races that were held in Hawaii and sought to see if anyone would be of interest to do this. This was back in the 1979 and the fields back then were nothing like they are today. When triathlons really started to grow the other distances were figured out by what the % were in the Iron Man.

Because there was only a 2.5 swim race, the bike race was 112 miles, and then the standard marathon running race, it was never ever meant to be any other way than it was. Obviously the swimming gets the lower end and maybe that is the attraction to non swimmers that get into the event. I am not sure how they figured the Olympic distance but the swimming portion is still low compared to the others.

geochuck
August 13th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Frank you have it all wrong. The reason swimming is first is that any one can swim 2.5 and not have to go to the bathroom. It is much easier to go to the bathroom when you are cycling or running you just have to stop at the first bush.

Peter Cruise
August 13th, 2005, 01:23 PM
George- you are correct when swimmer is in distance mode; however don't ever block the door to the toilet before men's 50 free event at SCNats...you'll get trampled!

Conniekat8
August 14th, 2005, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by TomH
A couple of reasons. The first is the one you were after. Triathletes as a whole are not great swimmers, particularly in the sprint distance races. As you might imagine, many have a background in just one sport, mostly runners who are picking up cycling and swimming. For most of them, a 500 to 800 yard swim is more than enough of a challenge.


Well, Bingo!
When they swim their 800 yards and then with TI book in hand act like it was some huge feat, and like they know all there is to know about swimming but yet complain about the basics that a good coach tries to teach them because it's different then what they may have read in some book and continue to swim against the grain, they tend to look a bit ridiculous who do 3000 and 4000 yard workouts 4-6 times a week.

And they fall for and buy just about every swimming related gimmick out there in hopes to shortcut a way to good technique.

They tend to spend hours and hours a week biking and running, and the least abmount of time on the sport that really takes the biggest time investment (of the threee) to get good at.

Ever watch that movie The Tin Cup When the doctor chick comes to her fist lesson, and has all these golf related gimmicks and gadgets that she won't let go of, but doesn't know the very basics of golf.

This seems so much more prevalent in tri-swimmer then any other swimming subgroup.

Also, many of them have the attitude of not really wanting to learn to swim properly, but they act like the 800 Yard swim is cutting into their biking and running, as a necessary evil..
Many of them come to us saying, I have 8 weeks before the race, I need to learn how to swim and make good time, and they think a 6-pack of lessons and a 100 yard workout once a week will get them there, cause after biking and running that's all the time they have left.

I'm sure if they whined about biking or running as much as they do about the swimming, bikers and runners would make fun of them as well.

jpheather
August 14th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Connie, your post hit the mark. I teach an advanced adult swimming class where I work. This last session I had a triathlete who came in and signed up for both session (MW and TTh), said he could only do free because of various injuries, but wanted significant improvement for an event 2 weeks hence.

He had been putting in lots of yards, but his stroke was such that he was killing his shoulders (e.g., lots of crossing over, no hip rotation). Kick was poor. Used a pull bouy ALL the time.

Since he wasn't the only one in the class I did teach the other strokes, and turns, and I somehow managed to get him to play along. Wouldn't let him use a pull buoy unless I had everyone using one.

He said he went from 10x100 on 1:45 to 10x100 on 1:30 in the 2 weeks (doesn't that sound like a triathlete). I could see a big improvement, he was willing to change, and despite the few problems at the beginning, he let me teach (sometimes difficult for a Caltech professor to do, which he is).

Better get going, still have to eat, get stuff together, and drive down to Mission Viejo for my last 50.

geochuck
August 14th, 2005, 10:07 AM
So they only swim freestyle and don't want to swim breaststroke, backstroke or fly. I am with them I refuse to swim breaststroke and backstroke, I don't mind a little fly. They read a book and think they are swimmers but I have yet to meet a tri-person who does not listen when I work on their strokes.

I went to the local masters club and the workouts comprised entirely of stuff that I did not want to do, Breaststroke, breaststroke drills backstroke, backstroke drills, buterfly drills freestyle drills no actual freesyle. Warm ups were breaststroke drills. The coach at the club was a Canadian breaststroke champion, needless to say I will not go back to swim with the Masters club.

I did forget to tell you that I just moved to this new town.

My next step is to go to the city hall and try to rent the pool for 3 hrs a week and set up pool time to teach freestyle swimming to Master swimmers and Triathletes who want to be able to swim freestyle.

Maryyyyyy
August 14th, 2005, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by geochuck


My next step is to go to the city hall and try to rent the pool for 3 hrs a week and set up pool time to teach freestyle swimming to Master swimmers and Triathletes who want to be able to swim freestyle.

I'd come! The commute is just a liiiiiitttttllllle toooooo far, but it's tempting! ;)

Peter Cruise
August 14th, 2005, 12:38 PM
Gee Mary,...you could get over here in a series of distance swims, yeah, that's it...oh the Atlantic, well, how about we rent a yacht, you swim behind during the day, climb aboard at night & party wildly while the Captain makes sure we stay at the same spot, then the Panama Canal, piece of cake, up the Pacific Coast & you could pick up an escort of swimmers at La Jolla & before you know it, you're at Vancouver Island with George waiting to hand you a low-fat latte at your arrival! Yeah! It could be an international fundraiser for...that's it triathlete- master swimmers understanding. That way we could fund a permanent home at John Smith's house for TI-debriefing, triathlete stroke clinics & masters swimmer thread-posters empathy enhancement.

geochuck
August 14th, 2005, 12:42 PM
And after having the latte with me it is just a short swim to Nanaimo and you can have an afternoon book reading with Peter.

Maryyyyyy
August 14th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
Gee Mary,...you could get over here in a series of distance swims, yeah, that's it...oh the Atlantic, well, how about we rent a yacht, you swim behind during the day, climb aboard at night & party wildly while the Captain makes sure we stay at the same spot, then the Panama Canal, piece of cake, up the Pacific Coast & you could pick up an escort of swimmers at La Jolla & before you know it, you're at Vancouver Island with George waiting to hand you a low-fat latte at your arrival! Yeah! It could be an international fundraiser for...that's it triathlete- master swimmers understanding. That way we could fund a permanent home at John Smith's house for TI-debriefing, triathlete stroke clinics & masters swimmer thread-posters empathy enhancement.

do I get to draft off the yacht? :D

I'm waitin' for my latte, George! Get ready, here I come!!

Conniekat8
August 14th, 2005, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
So they only swim freestyle and don't want to swim breaststroke, backstroke or fly. I am with them I refuse to swim breaststroke and backstroke, I don't mind a little fly. They read a book and think they are swimmers but I have yet to meet a tri-person who does not listen when I work on their strokes.

I went to the local masters club and the workouts comprised entirely of stuff that I did not want to do, Breaststroke, breaststroke drills backstroke, backstroke drills, buterfly drills freestyle drills no actual freesyle.

I remember my freestyle times magically improving when I started trying to get good at all four strokes, rather than just one.
It's pretty amazing how some breaststroke or backstroke or fly can give you a different perspective on , among many other thingsm your balance in water (pay attention here leg sinkers).

geochuck
August 14th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Conniekat8

Are you sure it was the four strokes or just that you spent more time in the water.

Conniekat8
August 16th, 2005, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by geochuck
Conniekat8

Are you sure it was the four strokes or just that you spent more time in the water.

I'm very sure.
I didn't spend any more time in the water.

I used to do freestyle when coach called for other strokes, just because I didn't know them at the time.
As I stareted to learn them and do them more, instead of substituting those laps with freestyle, I found myself progressing faster - in freestyle.
Seems like it helped balance my body, and hit some of the muscles from different angles and improve my overall strength... which in turn helped my freestyle too.

I had shared that observation with my coach after I started noticing it, and he agreed, and commented, that's the way it;s supposed to work. Even though on the surface they look different, there are a lot of small components that are shared among the strokes, that benefit from hitting them from a different angle.
Gives you different areas of strength, and it gives you a different perspective as far as having the feel for the water.

geochuck
August 16th, 2005, 12:25 PM
We get faster just by swimming it really does not matter how many of the four strokes we swim if I get in the pool and swim dog paddle every day my crawl will get faster, not because of swimming dog paddle but because time in water adds to your swimming ability. As long as you swim dog paddle correctly and streamline your dog paddle.

TomH
August 16th, 2005, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
We get faster just by swimming it really does not matter how many of the four strokes we swim if I get in the pool and swim dog paddle every day my crawl will get faster, not because of swimming dog paddle but because time in water adds to your swimming ability. As long as you swim dog paddle correctly and streamline your dog paddle.

This is interesting. All this whining about triathletes in this thread and yet I can get better advice on swimming than this on the triathlon forums!

:D

geochuck
August 16th, 2005, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by TomH
This is interesting. All this whining about triathletes in this thread and yet I can get better advice on swimming than this on the triathlon forums!

:D Ah!! but one of the main drills for freestyle on the triathletes thread happens to be dog paddle. Here is the low down......

Freestyle Stroke Drills
Drill/ Practice Coaching Point

High elbow finger trail High elbow with trailing finger/hands up body during recovery.

Fists Swimming/ Open hands Helps to increase sensitivity of hand to water pressure, and develop a feel for the water.

Doggy Paddle Streamline push forward with hand ( on side ), turn wrist and hand at extension, flex elbow outside the body & hand to pull down the centre line of the body. The head can either be in or out of the water.

Body rolling through kicking Sufficient body roll, to encourage a narrower, longer, more streamlined body position.

Breathing Restrictions Short swims, holding breath, keeping head still, increase breaths taken, returning head to central position.

Stroke Counting Distance per stroke can be used to measure stroke efficiency.

Conniekat8
August 16th, 2005, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
We get faster just by swimming it really does not matter how many of the four strokes we swim if I get in the pool and swim dog paddle every day my crawl will get faster, not because of swimming dog paddle but because time in water adds to your swimming ability. As long as you swim dog paddle correctly and streamline your dog paddle.

That's simply just your opinion and not true at all.

Think of four strokes as cross training, if you will.
Benefits of cross training have been proven long time ago.

For example, fly and breast stroke (short axis strokes) will improve your core body strength much faster than just freestyle will, as it targes some of those muscles harder. In turn, that gained strenght helps you with freestyle. Breast stroke and fly are also great for improving one;s sense of rythm, which is also imprtan in freestyle.

Backstroke, especially the drills will help people strengthen the small shoulder muscles and rotator cuff instability, also it will improve your long axis balance in water, and give you a better feel for leg flotation, which in turn also benefits your freestyle.

The list of mutual benefits goes on and on.

Saying that practicing all four strokes doesn't improve your freestyle too is doing a great deal of disservice to those who are trying to improve.

Francesco
August 16th, 2005, 04:29 PM
Your perception is your realty...
I agree with Geochuck but if iit works for you keep doing it...
I does'nt work for me

geochuck
August 16th, 2005, 04:47 PM
I prefer not to be called a liar, (not your words), Connie but I know if you swim lots and are consistent you will get better. Even if your stoke sucks. Hey any time in the water doing any stroke improves your core strength. I have twenty land drills that will improve your core strength. I can get a video exercise program that will improve my core strength, then I wont have to swim to get faster.

ande
August 27th, 2007, 03:44 PM
is this still true?
tell us how you really feel

A

slowfish
August 27th, 2007, 08:05 PM
Boy! i hate to admit it but i'm a triathlete. :whiteflag: I was a runner first, bike commuter second, but i always loved swimming.

The funny thing is that as much tri-bashing that is going on here, i actually agree with alot of what is being said.

1) To be good a good triathlete, you have to train like a runner, biker, and swimmer. This means that if you go to a masters workout, you should do the posted workout, learn all of the strokes, and do flip turns. I believe it's improved my swimming and helped with injury prevention since doing only freestyle only builds the freestyle muscles. I also get very bored with only freestyle so i'm really glad to have learned all of the strokes.

2) Wetsuits - should be banned except for water under 70. you may think lower water temps but the problem is that if you have to bike on a cool day after swimming, hypothermia can set in pretty quickly and that would be bad.

I've never worn a wetsuit in a sprint distance tri (500-800m) where the water is in the upper 70s and the air temps can creep into the high 80s or better. i sweat alot and felt like i would overheat... but i recently learned that if everyone around is wearing a wetsuit, you are at a distinct disadvantage since everyone is riding higher in the water. so at a 1500m swim tri in the same lake, i donned a suspender style wetsuit and improved my swim place bigtime...so, until tris ban wetsuits except in cold conitions, the non-wetsuit holdouts will don a wetsuit!

3) Rationale for the all pulling workouts - when you wear a wetsuit, it's like having a pull buoy between your legs - you don't have to use your legs much cause they just float. so, alot of tri workouts tend to have alot of pulling in there.

4) My husband is a former college runner and ripped on me for doing tris for years based on the "mediocrity at 3 sports" principle...until he saw a tri on tv where all the guys were former D1 college runners. take a look at the swim times of the top tri-guys and gals before you judge this one.

5) the selfish training time - so true but only for longer distance events. 1/2s and full ironman's take a serious time committment. But, shorter distance events the most workout time needed is about as much as serious swimmers doing doubles every day.

in short, i don't think it's fair for triathletes to expect masters workouts to accomodate them. nobody should be able to differentiate between the swimmers and triathletes (except most triathletes don't kick too well :drown:) i don't think they realize what an advantage it is to become serious about swimming as a sport in and of itself. but, what the competition knows won't hurt them :D

TomH
August 27th, 2007, 08:48 PM
is this still true?
tell us how you really feel

A

How Bizarre! Over two years after posting, the thread comes back to life!

To answer your question, everyone in my masters group is extremely supportive and helpful.

Even the three who aren't triathletes! :rofl:

geochuck
August 27th, 2007, 08:55 PM
I read that if the triathletes were not swimming with the master swimming clubs, most master clubs would fold.

The Fortress
August 27th, 2007, 09:22 PM
George, you instigator ... I actually don't know of any current triathletes on my team. A few former tris ... some moonlighting runners. We're all swimmers who (attempt to) do 4 strokes. I like it that way since a diet of purely distance free would be unbearable.

Allen Stark
August 28th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Fort. glad you said all FOUR strokes(but then you are a Zone Champion in breaststroke.)

david.margrave
August 28th, 2007, 12:03 AM
We have them on our team. They're good swimmers, capable of all four strokes, and they do all the stroke sets the coach gives, not just free. No problems at all.

geochuck
August 28th, 2007, 12:14 AM
Fort you know there are only 2 strokes any one should swim - fly and crawl. Those other 2 strokes you talk about are not worth swimming and I rate them with the side stroke.

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 09:48 AM
So let me get this, in a sport that can't decide what is or isn't a legit stroke you try to pick one those who endeavor to answer the question, "who's the best athlete?." That question is what created Triathlons.

I've only been on one "team"; of the 20-30 members, all did triathlons. IMHO, some were great swimmers and swam meets, but that was very few. That's probably because of the popularity of TRIs in FL.

Everyone did all the strokes (except fly because some of us hadn't learned yet). If swimmers aren't doing the Coach's workout that a coaching and discipline thing. I would love to learn Fly, but can't find a coach in Atlanta.

Most adults don't like to seem stupid so they don't ask questions. I know I have a lot to learn in swimming and want to improve. It would be nice if you "swimmer" assumed that and offered help and not just criticism. I have learned a lot here about technique and etiquette. I'm always the first to share my lane or circle swim, but if I went to your pools I'd have no idea which lane to swim in unless it were marked by time or ability.

BTW: does anyone other than the swimmers waiting to swim and parents even watch swimming? Millions of non-participants/athlete watch: running events, cycling events, and Tris. Does swimming even have a publication that rivals Runner's World, Cycling, or Triathlon where none are sponsored by the governing organization? If there is I'd like to read it. Never found one.

All swimmers in the pool need to obey the coach and workouts regardless of being a "swimmer", "triathlete", or "exerciser", but if it wasn't for the latter two, I think our pools will be turned in to skate parks very soon.
:2cents::2cents: Four cents because I got long winded, sorry.:wine:
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geochuck
August 28th, 2007, 09:54 AM
I would not want to be coached by anyone who tells me what I have to do for a work out. I would be happy if they could tell me what I am doing wrong technique wise.

If they try to give me drills, or tell me to do breaststroke or backstroke I would tell them where to go.

I have never obeyed a coach who dictates a workout. I only do what I want to do. If he says use a pull bouy I do not do it I do arms only. If he says breaststroke I do not do it.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 10:00 AM
BTW: does anyone other than the swimmers waiting to swim and parents even watch swimming?

Um, yes. Swimming was THE BIGGEST thing in the last Olympics, will be THE BIGGEST thing in the next Olympics. Most people with any knowledge of sports still rank Spitz's accomplishments 30+ years ago as one of the greatest feats of all time and that may soon be undone.

As much as I enjoy the other two disciplines (there you go, Smiths), lets face it, anyone can run or bike, not saying they do it well. It's the swimming that is the gatekeeper to the sport, except for the 1% of us that can actually swim good and then get punked out of the water. I should start counting the number of tris that tell me "if I could only swim good, I'd be much better at tris."

As far as kids go, check out kids swim meets versus kids tris, the ratio is like 100:1, if you are lucky. Oh, and triathloning is a new Olympic sport, not one of the originals.

As to magazines, that's a strange comment. It's about advertising. I can take a non swimmer and they are good to go for $40. $40 won't even buy you a pedal or a half pair of decent running shoes.

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 10:25 AM
Um, yes. Swimming was THE BIGGEST thing in the last Olympics, No that was Sychronized swimming.

As much as I enjoy the other two disciplines (there you go, Smiths), lets face it, anyone can run or bike, not saying they do it well. It's the swimming that is the gatekeeper to the sport, except for the 1% of us that can actually swim good and then get punked out of the water. I should start counting the number of tris that tell me "if I could only swim good, I'd be much better at tris." Not really, but it too short. I agree with an earlier comment it should play a bigger role.


As far as kids go, check out kids swim meets versus kids tris, the ratio is like 100:1, if you are lucky. I love invented facts

Oh, and triathloning is a new Olympic sport, not one of the originals. The idea is to determine the best out-all athlete. Is that why so many specialist are injured?


As to magazines, that's a strange comment. It's about advertising. No its about growth, interest and the future of the sport.

Spitz proves my point. We all remember him swimmer and non-swimmer. How many non-swimmers know or care about Phelps, Thorpe, Sanders, and "whats her name" who is only known for being on/in Playboy?

:duel:
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gull
August 28th, 2007, 10:33 AM
I should start counting the number of tris that tell me "if I could only swim good, I'd be much better at tris."

That's funny. Around here they say, "If I could only swim well, I'd be much better at tris." Must be the proximity to The University of Texas.

The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 10:34 AM
Most adults don't like to seem stupid so they don't ask questions. I know I have a lot to learn in swimming and want to improve. It would be nice if you "swimmer" assumed that and offered help and not just criticism. I have learned a lot here about technique and etiquette. I'm always the first to share my lane or circle swim, but if I went to your pools I'd have no idea which lane to swim in unless it were marked by time or ability.

BTW: does anyone other than the swimmers waiting to swim and parents even watch swimming? Millions of non-participants/athlete watch: running events, cycling events, and Tris. Does swimming even have a publication that rivals Runner's World, Cycling, or Triathlon where none are sponsored by the governing organization? If there is I'd like to read it. Never found one.

All swimmers in the pool need to obey the coach and workouts regardless of being a "swimmer", "triathlete", or "exerciser", but if it wasn't for the latter two, I think our pools will be turned in to skate parks very soon.
:2cents::2cents: Four cents because I got long winded, sorry.:wine:
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1. Bill, I really think most swimmers are more helpful than critical. I am always asking questions and willing to help anyone that has a question. Most masters lanes are organized by ability. It's not particularly difficult to figure out which one to hop in or the coach can tell you.

2. As to attendance, I never get a seat at the Tom Dolan meet here and it pisses me off. No problem watching a triathlon or most running races.

3. The word "obey" just creeps me out. Masters swimmers have to adapt the workouts to meet their individual needs, abilities and physical condition. I'm like George, no pull buoys or paddles please! Still, most people I know roughly stick to the workout and intervals with minor adaptations. I don't get the reference to a skate park. I always share my lap lanes and try to be courteous when swimming on my own, which is unfortunately the norm lately.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 10:36 AM
Spitz proves my point. We all remember him swimmer and non-swimmer. How many non-swimmers know or care about Phelps, Thorpe, Sanders, and "whats her name" who is only known for being on/in Playboy?

How about this, find a single promo for the Olympics that includes a triathlete. Ask anyone who the star of the Olympics is and everyone will say Phelps. Did you watch NBC on the day exactly one year before the Olympics? Who did they send to China to promote it? Not a triathlete, track and field star, gynmast, no, they sent a swimmer.

How many kids tris or kids swim meets you been to lately? Go check em out and draw your own conclusions.

Since when do triathlons determine the best over all athlete, as you say? The decathlon has always been the judge of that, not some new sport added recently. C'mon, man, get your sports history right. Get your whole post right, for that matter.

The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 10:37 AM
Spitz proves my point. We all remember him swimmer and non-swimmer. How many non-swimmers know or care about Phelps, Thorpe, Sanders, and "whats her name" who is only known for being on/in Playboy?

:duel:
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Anyone who tunes in even periodically or reads the paper knows who Phelps and Thorpe are. And Amanda Beard is a decorated Olympian, not just a pin up.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 10:38 AM
That's funny. Around here they say, "If I could only swim well, I'd be much better at tris." Must be the proximity to The University of Texas.

Good one, but I shall be using your back fence as my latrine next year as a result of this mocking post.

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 10:50 AM
The word "obey" just creeps me out. Masters swimmers have to adapt the workouts to meet their individual needs, abilities and physical condition. I'm like George, no pull buoys or paddles please!

Fort:
Sorry for the "obey" , my military background is showing. I don't know enough about swimming to vary too far from my coach. I understand good and bad pain and that will cause me to alter the plan, some.

Funny, my swim coaches had everyone using zoomers, long fins, small pads and large ones, buoys, and boards. Both are USMS certified and one swam in the 96 Olympics for Bulgaria.

I read the workout (e-mail) and then stack all my toys as neatly as possible. The other swimmers just stare. So I'm the swimming version of the guy with white tape on his glasses and a pocket protector.:cry: I even follow Speedo Swimmer's workout to the letter!

I read here that most of y'all don't use any "toys", but I HAVE to do what my coach says....resistance if futile!
:dedhorse:
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The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 10:51 AM
As far as kids go, check out kids swim meets versus kids tris, the ratio is like 100:1.

Having attended both, Bill, I would say this is not an "invented fact." There is never, ever, enough seating at USS meets or even at small summer league dual meets. Age group swimming is huge, and just keeps growing. By comparison, very few age groupers are running before high school and even fewer are doing triathlons. Swimming is vastly more popular.

I've been to triathlons with my teenager where there is barely a spectator or very few. However, I'm sure Lake Placid or Kona are better attended.

The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 10:55 AM
Funny, my swim coaches had everyone using zoomers, long fins, small pads and large ones, buoys, and boards. Both are USMS certified and one swam in the 96 Olympics for Bulgaria.

I read here that most of y'all don't use any "toys", but I HAVE to do what my coach says....resistance if futile!

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Most coaches use toys. Most of my team uses toys. I use toys too. I like some toys. Just not pull buoys, paddles and kickboards! (Except, I've found I don't mind using a pull buoy for BR pulls.) I'm not a purist like that Geochuck fellow at all; I'm just watching out for my shoulders. Plus, I use fins, my MF, just started using my kid's BR fins and am still hoping to master my dorkle one day ... Toys = good fun.

Go learn fly! Can't be a great athlete without that. :thhbbb:

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 10:59 AM
Ask anyone who the star of the Olympics is and everyone will say Phelps. Since I actually hang out with people who participate in other sports. Most of them point to track as the premier events.

How many kids tris or kids swim meets you been to lately? Go check em out and draw your own conclusions. I would love to but there aren't any. Hopefully next year, I can volunteer at one.

Since when do triathlons determine the best over all athlete, as you say?
That's best track and field athlete. Like the fastest human is the winner of the 50m. No Johnson was faster, at top end speed.

C'mon, man, get your sports history right. Get your whole post right, for that matter. Trithlon goes back to the 70's and swimming is not one of the originals in the first Olympics or the modern Olympics.
Get your facts right.

Allen Stark
August 28th, 2007, 11:09 AM
I respect Triathletes.I agree it is an interesting event and probably been good to swimming. The distances are arbitrary based on a ratio from pre-existing events and unfair to the swimmers. As for me,it's distance event am I'm not interested in doing it.I have to agree with Geek(how weird is that) on the popularity issue. I also think Swimming World is a pretty good magazine.(How old is Runner's World? Swimming World has been around since the early 60s and it's predecessor since the 50s.)

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 11:09 AM
Having attended both, Bill, I would say this is not an "invented fact." There is never, ever, enough seating at USS meets or even at small summer league dual meets. Age group swimming is huge, and just keeps growing. By comparison, very few age groupers are running before high school and even fewer are doing triathlons. Swimming is vastly more popular. I agree, I'm just yanking Geek's chain 'cause it so easy.

But swimming is huge the way Gymnastics is. Kids love and then abandon it. When I swim, I usually have the pool (4 lanes) to myself. On rare occassion the pool will fill up and then empty out within minutes. The people who swim may swim for 200-600m and call it a workout. I have missed more TRIs for filling up than roadraces.

I've been to triathlons with my teenager where there is barely a spectator or very few. However, I'm sure Lake Placid or Kona are better attended. The little sprints are that way and TRIs don't even lend itself to being spectator friendly. Yet I see people out lining the roads for the bike and run. They even cheer! Probably cause it free entertainment. Every TRI I did last year closed. Most Hald IM and IMs close in 24 hours. I did St Anthony's it closed in 5 hours!

Here in Atlanta and back in Tampa there are virtually no swim events. I think Tampa had an Aquathon and a OW distance swim. I went on-line after (S)he male said there was a summer program. It was cancelled. Maybe swimming is just more localized than TRIs.

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 11:12 AM
Go learn fly! Can't be a great athlete without that. :thhbbb:

Is it possible without a coach? I watch people do fly and think, "If I tried that, my arm would 'fly' off". I'll wait until I find a coach and learn it right the first time.
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TomH
August 28th, 2007, 11:20 AM
Having attended both, Bill, I would say this is not an "invented fact." There is never, ever, enough seating at USS meets or even at small summer league dual meets. Age group swimming is huge, and just keeps growing. By comparison, very few age groupers are running before high school and even fewer are doing triathlons. Swimming is vastly more popular.

I've been to triathlons with my teenager where there is barely a spectator or very few. However, I'm sure Lake Placid or Kona are better attended.

Heck, I love swimming as a standalone sport or as part of tri, so I don't really have a side in this "discussion".

However, I think it's a relatively silly comparison to say that swimming must be more popular because you can't get one of the few hundred seats around most pools, and Tri is less popular because it's so easy to find a seat along the 140.6 mile of the venue. :doh:

On the other hand, great point about swimming being the (or at least one of the) highlighted sport of the summer olympics.

Of course, downhill skiing and curling get a lot of attention for 14 days every four years too. :bolt:

Allen Stark
August 28th, 2007, 11:28 AM
Bill,I think you are pulling all our chains. Swimming was an event at the first Modern Olympics(Athens 1896.) Also Dynamo in Atlanta is one of the premier teams in USAS.I love to watch track.30 years ago I'd have agreed that the average person would have rated the track athletes as the top athletes. For reasons I don't understand Track is not as popular in the US as it was.I think that is sad and hope it makes a comeback.

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 12:00 PM
Actually, for the most part I'm serious. I can't get to Dynamo at the time they practice (given the location) or I would be guilty of abandoning my family. I've called a couple of (USMS) listed clubs and they are closed. GA Tech is only open at night so I'm stuck.

I stand corrected the an OW swim did exist in 1896. I was thinking of the pool swim which came later. Thank you.

I have gone to IAAF and USATF meets; they are huge! Mostly sprinters though. I think the demise of T&F is that we have no great distance athletes. At Least like the old days.

I really enjoy swimming and hope to improve and compete. But from growing up in the south and living in two major metro areas, I find swimming just isn't that popular by the number of participants and events to go to. This weekend in Metro atlanta there are several major running events. There are zero swimming events. The two pools in Atlanta I go to are usually empty.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 12:35 PM
I don't know how you can make these bizaree statements about swimming in Georgia, especially Atlanta, and Florida. First off, as mentioned above, Dynamo is one of the best swim clubs in the nation and has huge attendance. Secondly, there are many USMS meets in and around Atlanta yearly. Florida is awash in OW and pool meets every year. I count 30 meet results already this year on dixiezone.org. That doesn't include non USMS events, such as the annual swim around Key West, very popular event. The USMS places to swim lists 32 places to swim/clubs in Georgia, although many probably don't have coaches.

When I was in ATL last December, I had three teams I emailed about practice times and all were very welcoming.

Charlotte, a small version of Atlanta, has an absolutely enormous year round community, not to mention the summer leagues of six divisions with dozens of teams with 100+ kids each. And, that is small by Fort's standards in DC. There are at least three organized USMS teams here snd probably twice that of swimmer on their own at regular times.

Stop being a chlorine hater.

ALM
August 28th, 2007, 12:45 PM
Our illustrious USMS President, Rob Copeland, lives in Atlanta. Perhaps he can give you some leads on teams and coaching.

Anna Lea

poolraat
August 28th, 2007, 01:01 PM
As a former runner I used to watch T&F at every opportunity. And I still do occassionally, but now would rather watch a baseball game given a choice between the two. I don't know what happened to it's popularity either, although the absence of U.S. distance runners on the world scene may be a factor (sorry Fort but Webb just hasn't been consistant enough on the international scene and where are the 5K, 10K, and marathoners?). Another observation regarding the decline in the popularity of T&F is, in my opinion, the "in your face" attitude so often displayed on the track before and after events. I haven't seen that attitude in swimming which makes it more enjoyable to watch. Just my :2cents:.




Bill,I think you are pulling all our chains. Swimming was an event at the first Modern Olympics(Athens 1896.) Also Dynamo in Atlanta is one of the premier teams in USAS.I love to watch track.30 years ago I'd have agreed that the average person would have rated the track athletes as the top athletes. For reasons I don't understand Track is not as popular in the US as it was.I think that is sad and hope it makes a comeback.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 01:18 PM
Track and field has also suffered from doping fairly badly. The bling, the costumes, the attitude these days makes it unwatchable.

scyfreestyler
August 28th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Yes...they are.

gull
August 28th, 2007, 01:36 PM
Posted on this thread two years ago:



I'm quite proud of my one dimensional status. That way I only have to make excuses for stinking at one sport and not the three that most tris have to.


Powerful the dark side is.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 01:49 PM
Posted on this thread two years ago:

Powerful the dark side is.

I should have said I was four dimensional two years ago with my advanced girth. That was also back before you went on the Balco plan and had small guns.

gull
August 28th, 2007, 02:09 PM
I should have said I was four dimensional two years ago with my advanced girth. That was also back before you went on the Balco plan and had small guns.


I stretch a lot.

The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 02:19 PM
Tom: :doh: That was not my main point, it was just an example of the fact that more kids swim than run or do tris. I have a swimmer kid and a runner/tri kid. Believe me, at least where I live, there are vastly more age group swimmers. There are just not that many running clubs for kids, although I believe that more kids are doing road races these days. The competition is simply stiffer in swimming.

As for Atlanta ... are you kidding? That's a big age group swimming venue. Seems like they're a lot of masters swimmers there too ...

Poolraat: Alan Webb is just a local hero. It's fun for the kids here to meet him at events or on the local trails. I guess we'll see how he does in the semi-finals tonight. But he was pretty speedy the last time he ran!

MAC swimmer
August 28th, 2007, 02:30 PM
I would love it if more "try" athletes came out for the masters workouts. The bottom line though is that masters workouts are very intense (I don;t have to tell this group, obviously)...much more intense than any interval training you can do in practically any other sport...including triathelon training.

After 4 years of high school and college lacrosse, 5 years of bike racing at the CAT 3 level including cyclocross and track...nothing will kicks my butt like a masters swimming workout. I am just proud to be able to actually complete the sets, frankly. A full college workout for one week is one of the most difficult things I have ever heard of. I have never done one and I am amazed that people do that day in and day out. No sports workout can compare!

The tryathletes also have a very hard time keeping up unless they have a swimming background and they are unwilling to work hard on the other stroke. We have had several come through our program and disappear....

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 02:41 PM
The tryathletes also have a very hard time keeping up unless they have a swimming background and they are unwilling to work hard on the other stroke. We have had several come through our program and disappear....

This is a very good point. Most of our team is tris and a typical "swimmers" workout differs from what tris usually do for swimming. This can drive them away and quickly. However, the ones that do remain become much stronger swimmers than those who think a swim workout is slapping on a pull buoy, fins and powering out a 1500 yard swim.

I also see a lot of the tri training programs that are low yardage and kinda pathetic. I guess the goal is just to finish the swim.

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Geek: Maybe a bad point in time in Dixie region (I just checked again using the USMS link), I find 3 events for the remainder of the year! There are more running events than that this weekend in my little town outside Atlanta. Maybe I'm not using the right search engine. I've been checking the paper (AJC). I would love to be wrong. Point me in the right direction. :help: I'd love to one day be able to race (and get killed by you guys), the pools (4) I go to don't even have blocks!:shakeshead:

Dynamo and Rainbow Trout were the first places I went to join a team, again way to far from me to make practices. Like most, my training time is limited by Job and family. Its probably a factor of where I bough a house west of Atlanta. The teams appear to be way east or toward Lake Lanier (that's where the colleges are)

Yes, Anna, Mr Copeland lives near Atlanta (I believe he said he lives in Peach Tree City). It's over 60 miles from my house. That's a little far for practices. He very graciously invited me to a Pentathon. When I learn Fly, I can go. That's definitely close enough for a meet.

Yes the bling is hard to take in T&F. I remember CashFlo. That's about all I remember. I think she ran the 200. Then there's Warner and his ear rings.
</IMG>
The best was Carl Lewis and his one strap unitard.

Sorry for hijacking.

BAN ALL TRIATHLETES:lolup: There back on topic.
</IMG></IMG>

The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 02:47 PM
I stretch a lot.

No need for Balco with the daily massages ...

The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 02:50 PM
Geek: Maybe a bad point in time in Dixie region (I just checked again using the USMS link), I find 3 events for the remainder of the year! There are more running events than that this weekend in my little town outside Atlanta. Maybe I'm not using the right search engine. I've been checking the paper (AJC). I would love to be wrong. Point me in the right direction. :help: I'd love to one day be able to race (and get killed by you guys), the pools (4) I go to don't even have blocks!:shakeshead:
</IMG></IMG>

There are many more masters runners than masters swimmers. Anyone can run. As a technique sport, swimming is much harder to master, especially if you lack an age group background.

geochuck
August 28th, 2007, 02:55 PM
Leave those triathletes alone. Most of my income comes from these great allround athletes. I love them and love to work with them.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 02:56 PM
There will never be as many pool events as running events. To have a road race you need a road and there are a lot of roads. Pool space is very limited, usually highly sought after and expensive. Staffing a meet is also difficult. Plus, everyone can run, or most everyone anyway. But, there are no Galloswimmers, where you can stop and dog paddle in the middle of your 200, except for Stud. The point is swimming requires a level of fitness and competence, whereas most road races these days are full of walkers or run walkers or fun whiners. On the other hand, it does pack em in to running events. Maybe we should have noodle races.

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 02:59 PM
There are many more masters runners than masters swimmers. Anyone can run. As a technique sport, swimming is much harder to master, especially if you lack an age group background.

I think that's why I like it. Swimming is more thana physical challenge. So many things to learn and master. I heard years ago that a strong swimmer will beat a weak one, but a smart swimmer will beat a strong one. I'm a strong swimmer, but with pathetic technique.

If I posted a video of me swimming, it would only be for y'all's entertainment value. I'd probably be accused of creating a 5th stroke.

bud
August 28th, 2007, 03:53 PM
.... I would love to learn Fly, but can't find a coach in Atlanta....
i taught myself fly. took some time, but it was worth the effort. mostly read stuff online for instruction, and did a lot of analysis and study. i've gotten enough compliments that i know i'm doing it mostly correct.

i probably need to update this info, but a lot of what i learned about fly is currently summarized on this page:
http://kb4u.net/swim/fly.html#tech
again, this is just my take on the subject, and should not be considered gospel.
i believe the swim.ee vids are no longer available, but i have copies and will e-mail them to you if you want them.
most of the really useful "links" still work.

hth

geochuck
August 28th, 2007, 03:58 PM
Fly - easy. Just do two arm freestlyle using the keyhole stroke and hold your legs together and let them go up and down 2 x for each full arm cycle.

poolraat
August 28th, 2007, 04:11 PM
Poolraat: Alan Webb is just a local hero. It's fun for the kids here to meet him at events or on the local trails. I guess we'll see how he does in the semi-finals tonight. But he was pretty speedy the last time he ran!


Alan is a great runner, just needs more international experience. He struggled a bit in the semis (I watched it during my lunch hour) today but is in the final. I hope he has a good race there but if it's a tactical race he may have problems again.

bud
August 28th, 2007, 04:14 PM
.... As to magazines, that's a strange comment. It's about advertising. I can take a non swimmer and they are good to go for $40. $40 won't even buy you a pedal or a half pair of decent running shoes....

that may be true for initial equipment, but i believe swimming is a rich persons sport. everywhere i've lived so far i was not able to get regular (annual) access to a decent pool for less than $60/mo. if i wanted to swim in coached sessions then my monthly cost immediately doubles.

once you get past the equipment purchase (a years swimming fees should take care of that nicely) for running and biking all you have to do is step outside your front door and you are ready to go (in most cases anyway).

if you consider the environmental impact of all the chemicals and energy used to maintain pools (especially in heating the water and environmentally controlling indoor pool areas) then the cost of swimming goes through the roof compared to running and biking.

swimming may look inexpensive at first, but i believe it to be very costly.

fanstone
August 28th, 2007, 04:27 PM
Aha! Galloswimming! I knew I had brought something over from my running days. Not into pool swimming, but into Open Water swimming. Every so often, to get your bearings and breath back, do that ever easy style, the breast...for anyone who doesn't swim the evil style on purpose, who just does it as part of the I.M., then when you go to breast, it's rest time. I guess the race walker, or power walker would say that walking is hard to do, but it is the way we runners take a break, as we swimmers take a break when do the breast style....billy (recently even entered a 50 breast to know how it felt) fanstone

Blackbeard's Peg
August 28th, 2007, 04:36 PM
I was approached by a gentleman from a *shall remain nameless* local club earlier this summer. He, as a pool swimmer of all four strokes, was fed up with being a 1:9 minority in his pool and suffering through too many mid-distance free-only workouts, and was looking to start a new masters superteam. So look out for the NFTA - pronounced Nafta - team (No F'in Triathletes Allowed) at a USMS meet near you.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 04:40 PM
I don't know about that at all. You can get totally suited up for swimming, including the latest in meet gear, a practice suit and goggles for less than $400. You go grab bag and you are set for $30. You can't even sniff a bike with the latest gear for anything under $3K. Average equipping of a bike will run you at minimum $500-$1000, forget about the change of season wear. You want a top of the line bike and top gear, you are looking at well over $5K, way way over. Then, for some strange reason, you continue to nickel and dime yourself to death on the thing. Every biker I know is always buying something new.

Then you got to tote your bike around, there's another few hundred for a rack. Triathlons are about 2-3X as expensive as swim meets for registration.

As to environmental impact - roads also cost money to build, I've heard $1 million a mile these days. Every biker and runner I know also belongs to a gym so that is a wash with swimming.

If you are a serious runner, you are looking at $200+ a year in shoes, plus warm and cold weather wear, which is probably comparable to swimming.

islandsox
August 28th, 2007, 04:47 PM
As of tomorrow, I will be swimming with a group of triathletes in a lake here in Texas 3xweek. September is Roatan's hottest month and I had to get outta there.

So far from emails, they are eager for someone to work with them in their swimming portion of the tri. I just to hope to contribute if they need me to regarding technique. It will be my pleasure.

Like they say in the triathlete world: one Swims for Show but Runs for the Money.

The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 04:49 PM
I was approached by a gentleman from a *shall remain nameless* local club earlier this summer. He, as a pool swimmer of all four strokes, was fed up with being a 1:9 minority in his pool and suffering through too many mid-distance free-only workouts, and was looking to start a new masters superteam. So look out for the NFTA - pronounced Nafta - team (No F'in Triathletes Allowed) at a USMS meet near you.

I was told by a lady from a *shall remain nameless* local club earlier this summer that she was fed up with being a 1:9 minority in the pool and suffering through too many mid-distance or long distance free-only workouts, and was now ditching her tri-dominated team to practice with a USS team.

I'm happy to practice with tris, especially those with an open mind who want to learn to "swim." But no way in hell am I doing all freestyle pace workouts. I know one fellow who insists on doing that 24/7. He's called Mr. Freestyle. It's not a compliment.

This thread makes me glad that I have to work out on my own a lot.

Geek is right. Running gear really adds up.

Blackbeard's Peg
August 28th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Geek - amen on the costing there! These are expensive habits we have.
I did have the beauty of beating a friend of like athletic ability in the bike portion of a triathlon a few years back. He had just bought a new road bike... And I was on my mountain bike. He was pretty peeved about that. Despite the victory, I went out and bought a new road bike for myself a month later.

Or better- hockey - all my equipment was $700+ just to try it out... sure, I am having a good time injuring myself. but yeah, nothing like swimming!

scyfreestyler
August 28th, 2007, 04:55 PM
He's called Mr. Freestyle. It's not a compliment.




Ouch. I fall into that same classification quite often. :mooning:

The Fortress
August 28th, 2007, 04:57 PM
Ouch. I fall into that same classification quite often. :mooning:

At least you do evilstroke periodically.

He is called that because he messes up intervals on non-freestyle sets.

aquageek
August 28th, 2007, 05:03 PM
There was actually an article in the NYT a few weeks back (I'm pretty sure it was NYT) that talked about how the custom bike industry is going gangbusters with folks spending $20K+ on bikes. I could swim in FSPROs for life for that.

Heck, for $20K, we could even get Stud a backstroke lesson or two.

scyfreestyler
August 28th, 2007, 05:04 PM
I too enjoy swimming my own workouts most of the time. When I do swim with the senior team the coach and I have an understanding that I will modify the workout to suit me..and everybody is happy. Of course, I rarely have to share a lane and circle swimming is even more rare so timing of intervals is practically a non-issue.

scyfreestyler
August 28th, 2007, 05:11 PM
There was actually an article in the NYT a few weeks back (I'm pretty sure it was NYT) that talked about how the custom bike industry is going gangbusters with folks spending $20K+ on bikes. I could swim in FSPROs for life for that.

Heck, for $20K, we could even get Stud a backstroke lesson or two.

Get yourself a haircut while you're at it. ;)

But to compete in a Triathlon do you really need thousands of dollars in cycling gear? I am inclined to think that it is similar to swimming. Throwing money at high end equipment will only get you so far. Lance Armstrong on a Sears Ten Speed versus the average Joe on a 10 grand Trek...you know the story.

swimr4life
August 28th, 2007, 05:39 PM
Here in Atlanta and back in Tampa there are virtually no swim events. I think Tampa had an Aquathon and a OW distance swim. I went on-line after (S)he male said there was a summer program. It was cancelled. Maybe swimming is just more localized than TRIs.

Bill, there are PLENTY of swimming events in Atlanta!!! My county swim league alone has over 6,000 kids! We have many developmental Masters meets throughout the year and about 4 larger sanctioned meets.

slowfish
August 28th, 2007, 05:58 PM
As a runner who recently got hooked on masters' swimming (also fairly new to this site), I'd say this thread was tame compared to some I've seen on letsrun.com. Swimmers generally are nice ppl so when they try (tri?) to be harsh, the grains of salt show. ;)

haha! :agree:this tri-bashing is quite mild compared to letsrun. i was surprised to see a thread today talking about why runners can't seem to kick and it was actually civilized!

Slowswim
August 28th, 2007, 08:16 PM
Geek:

You missed the funniest thing about Tri-geeks (sorry that's what we call them). A guy carrying 30+ pounds of lard, bragging about spending $250 on titanium seats posts to shave 5 grams. I think, "dude eat a salad and shave pounds off the bike!"

We make fun of them too.

Beth:
You live toward Lake Lanier. But as I said earlier, swimming seems to be like gymnastics. Great for kids, but then they forget it. You live in the blessed area.

I'm asking for help, I live in Mableton GA (west Cobb), someone find a coach/team within 20 miles and I'll do a 200 Fly (gauntlet thrown down). Dynamo is in Dekalb and Gwinnett counties. Rainbow Trout only have evening practices. I've called the (770) clubs they are on the other side or closed (mostly southside of Atlanta).

I (like most -athletes) want to be a swimmer. I'm serious. I've been asking for help.

Pony up!

swimr4life
August 28th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Beth:
You live toward Lake Lanier. But as I said earlier, swimming seems to be like gymnastics. Great for kids, but then they forget it. You live in the blessed area.

I'm asking for help, I live in Mableton GA (west Cobb), someone find a coach/team within 20 miles and I'll do a 200 Fly (gauntlet thrown down). Dynamo is in Dekalb and Gwinnett counties. Rainbow Trout only have evening practices. I've called the (770) clubs they are on the other side or closed (mostly southside of Atlanta).

I (like most -athletes) want to be a swimmer. I'm serious. I've been asking for help.

Pony up![/QUOTE]

Where in Mableton are you? Are you near Dobbins Air Force base? If so....what about the Marietta Marlins (LINS) or Stingrays Swimming (RAYS)? Go to the Georgia USS website. These are USS teams but, they may have a Masters team also. I know of one Masters swimmer that swims with the RAYS. Its worth looking into. Good luck. I hope to see you do the 200 fly at a Masters meet! :)

inklaire
August 29th, 2007, 12:33 AM
Funny...

If I spend more than 20 minutes swimming freestyle, I usually get asked by a someone whether I'm a triathlete. Around here, people seem to have a hard time imagining swimming as a separate sport.

Peter Cruise
August 29th, 2007, 01:36 AM
Look, it has obviously been established by ESPN that poker players are the greatest all around athletes...

swimr4life
August 29th, 2007, 08:37 AM
:rofl: Yes the intense isometric contractions of the thumbs and index and middle fingers to hold the cards.....the intense moving of the wrist........wow! We're not worthy.:bow:

Slowswim
August 29th, 2007, 08:56 AM
Are they using the sunglasses to hid their goggles?

Paul Smith
August 29th, 2007, 10:19 AM
Try moving your arms and legs. Swimmers call this stroking and kicking.

Wet suits are for the weak, or triathletes, take your pick.

My have times changed! :thhbbb:

aquageek
August 29th, 2007, 10:50 AM
My have times changed! :thhbbb:

You and your pal gull piling on. I'm still very anti-wetsuit. Swimmers don't wear wetsuits, period.

inklaire
August 29th, 2007, 10:46 PM
Look, it has obviously been established by ESPN that poker players are the greatest all around athletes...

Of course! The other night I flipped through the channels and noticed a poker game in which some of the players were wearing heart rate monitors....

Hopper
August 29th, 2007, 11:11 PM
One positive aspect of the surge in triathlon popularity is the spillover into open water swimming popularity. Now we swimmers just need to convince the tri crowd to lengthen the swim leg. Consider the time difference: a 2.4 mile swim takes 40 mins or so. A marathon run is at least a 3+ hour slog. Equitable?

Hopper
http://www.swimvacation.com (http://www.swimvacation.com/)

The Fortress
August 29th, 2007, 11:56 PM
One positive aspect of the surge in triathlon popularity is the spillover into open water swimming popularity. Now we swimmers just need to convince the tri crowd to lengthen the swim leg. Consider the time difference: a 2.4 mile swim takes 40 mins or so. A marathon run is at least a 3+ hour slog. Equitable?

Hopper
http://www.swimvacation.com (http://www.swimvacation.com/)

I agree that the swim leg should be lengthened in a triathlon. It's just an inequitable warm up at present.

I'm all for OW swimming as well. I'm all for anything that gets people exercising and excited about exercising. And I admire distance swimmers, as well as all endurance athletes. (I agree with Geek though -- no wet suits please!)

But, and I'll probably get killed for this, I wish OW swimming didn't come at the expense of pool swimming. I sometimes feel like masters swimmers default to OW because it's easier than doing 4 strokes in a pool. Watching beautiful strokes in the pool is utterly amazing ... just as good or better than watching people battle and conquer the waves. When triathletes sneer at real swimmers -- and they do -- I find it vaguely offensive. Mutual respect would be preferable.

Slowswim
August 30th, 2007, 09:49 AM
Fort:

I agree. For TRIs the distances should be set closer to one third of the expected finish time. For example: an Ironman is run (by pros) ~12 hours. So the distances should be for what an average athlete would do. That's around 80 miles on the bike, still 26.2 miles for the run and a 6.5 miles swim. In a typical sprint (even for me): its 10 minutes in the water, 45 minutes on the bike, and 20 minutes for the run (assuming .3 mile/13 miles/ 3.1 miles) Better would be .9 mile/10 miles/6.2 miles.

Back home in Florida, I saw individuals doing all four stroke at the beach. There's no reason you can't have OW IMs. You just need a race track. The Strangeman Du is: 400M OW swim, 2 mile run (beach), 400m OW swim, and a 2 mile run to the finish. No reason you couldn't do something like this and specify the stroke.

RuffWater
August 30th, 2007, 10:35 AM
From the USMS website: "United States Masters Swimming (USMS) is a national organization that provides organized workouts, competitions, clinics and workshops for adults aged 18 and over. Programs are open to all adult swimmers (fitness, triathlete, competitive, non-competitive) who are dedicated to improving their fitness through swimming……. All USMS programs are designed to help swimmers improve fitness and/or train for specific goals, and offer active support for a healthy lifestyle through friendship, and camaraderie."


Having read a number of the 245 posts on this thread (and seeing this theme numerous other times), I am shocked at the majority’s poor opinion of triathletes. It appears this opinion is the opposite of the USMS mission. Not much friendship or camaraderie here.


Question: Would you rather swim with a dedicated triathlete or a swimmer who consistently arrives at workout late, rarely does the assigned set, and frequently demands the coach’s undivided attention to do a roll start timed 50?

knelson
August 30th, 2007, 11:11 AM
For example: an Ironman is run (by pros) ~12 hours.

12 hours? More like 8-9.

gull
August 30th, 2007, 12:20 PM
Question: Would you rather swim with a dedicated triathlete or a swimmer who consistently arrives at workout late, rarely does the assigned set, and frequently demands the coach’s undivided attention to do a roll start timed 50?

Depends on which one looks really hot in her speedo.

Peter Cruise
August 30th, 2007, 12:21 PM
Rob Jones- USMS is an inclusive organisation, as is the Canadian Masters, to which I belong. This is a thread in a discussion forum where people feel free to express opinions (just like in a democracy) which, as long as they steer clear of certain well understood limitations, which they do, often with a satirical brush. What is expressed here is far milder, in general, than what is said elsewhere about noodlers, by the way. Or mulish lap swimmers etc. Don't take it seriously, or if you do, send all indignant messages to the originator of this thread, a renowned gadfly and igniter of roaring blazes.

aquageek
August 30th, 2007, 12:30 PM
I fell off my bike into a shrub yesterday in front of my daughters, who then cried and put Barbie bandaids on my scraped up arm.

I am, therefore, reconsidering this whole triathlete thing.