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penguin4501
July 17th, 2005, 03:08 AM
Recently I've noticed that my flutter kick is not the usual "one leg up, the other leg down", but instead it is "both leg up and both leg down". So I've been trying to correct this weird flutter kicking. I've done some vertical kicking drills, it went well, then I combined the verticle kick with my front crawl, seems OK. But switching to the proper flutter kick doesn't make me any faster. In fact I seem to get tired a lot more quickly.

I swim a TI style front crawl, I've found the new flutter kicking hampers my body rotation so I start experimenting with a more relaxed 2 beat kick. However I never seem to be able to control my flutter kick rythm. I was trying to kick with the leg opposite to the arm entering the water, but I've never been able to do it, I don't know why, it is always the leg on the same side of the entering arm that kicks.

Could anybody here tell me or point me to resources on how to establish a proper flutter kick timing and rythm? I've been goggling this information for a long time but nothing shows up.

Thanks!

Bob McAdams
July 17th, 2005, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by penguin4501
Recently I've noticed that my flutter kick is not the usual "one leg up, the other leg down", but instead it is "both leg up and both leg down". So I've been trying to correct this weird flutter kicking.

When you say "both leg up and both leg down", do you mean you were doing a dolphin kick instead of a flutter kick?


I've done some vertical kicking drills, it went well, then I combined the verticle kick with my front crawl, seems OK. But switching to the proper flutter kick doesn't make me any faster. In fact I seem to get tired a lot more quickly.

I swim a TI style front crawl, I've found the new flutter kicking hampers my body rotation so I start experimenting with a more relaxed 2 beat kick. However I never seem to be able to control my flutter kick rythm. I was trying to kick with the leg opposite to the arm entering the water, but I've never been able to do it, I don't know why, it is always the leg on the same side of the entering arm that kicks.

I'm not sure what you mean by "kick with the leg opposite to the arm entering the water". In a flutter kick, you kick with both legs at the same time (though in opposite directions). In a 2-beat kick, your kick should be counterbalancing your core body rotation (i.e., the angular momentum of your kick should oppose and balance the angular momentum of your core body rotation).

Have you ever tried rotating your body while you are doing vertical kicking? Rotating your body a quarter of a turn in either direction while you are doing vertical kicking should help you to get a feel for how to integrate your kick with your core body rotation.


Bob

geochuck
July 17th, 2005, 12:25 PM
I have been doing the two leg kick when I am relaxing and stroke counting, two beats with a complete cycle, one beat with each arm stroke. But if I am sprinting I get back to the old standby 6 beat kick.

The TI stuff is great for people who have not been brought up through the ranks eg. I have been racing since I was 5 years old with a coach for13 years until I was 18, self coached for 54 years. We learned everything TI says naturally, touch your shoulders to your ears, extend the shoulders to make your body longer, roll, streamline, in 1956 the Japanese showed us something about making the body taller, catchup strokes. Hey we did it all.

penguin4501
July 17th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Bob McAdams
When you say "both leg up and both leg down", do you mean you were doing a dolphin kick instead of a flutter kick?


Yep, I guess because I have been a breaststroker most of the time for the past year I get this weird wip and dolphin kick hybrid ... which is very bad!


Originally posted by Bob McAdams
In a 2-beat kick, your kick should be counterbalancing your core body rotation (i.e., the angular momentum of your kick should oppose and balance the angular momentum of your core body rotation).

Have you ever tried rotating your body while you are doing vertical kicking? Rotating your body a quarter of a turn in either direction while you are doing vertical kicking should help you to get a feel for how to integrate your kick with your core body rotation.


Interesting point ... I've tried rotating my body during the verticle kick but I've never applied it in the full stroke. I'll try that next time I practice. What do you think about the idea of doing a 2 or 4 beat verticle kick, hugging a kickboard to assist floatation?

Thanks for your insight.

penguin4501
July 17th, 2005, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
I have been doing the two leg kick when I am relaxing and stroke counting, two beats with a complete cycle, one beat with each arm stroke. But if I am sprinting I get back to the old standby 6 beat kick.

The TI stuff is great for people who have not been brought up through the ranks eg. I have been racing since I was 5 years old with a coach for13 years until I was 18, self coached for 54 years. We learned everything TI says naturally, touch your shoulders to your ears, extend the shoulders to make your body longer, roll, streamline, in 1956 the Japanese showed us something about making the body taller, catchup strokes. Hey we did it all.

I guess TI just turn all these essential skills into a series of bite size drills so that people like me, who just started swimming a year ago, can easliy master them. It works for me definitely. Before doing the TI stuff I can't even finish a 50m front crawl, and now I've joined master's swimming and doing a thousand (of course there's a 10-15 second break per 100m :p )

Bob McAdams
July 17th, 2005, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by penguin4501
I've tried rotating my body during the verticle kick but I've never applied it in the full stroke. I'll try that next time I practice. What do you think about the idea of doing a 2 or 4 beat verticle kick, hugging a kickboard to assist floatation?

The only reason for using a flotation device when doing vertical kicking is if your kick isn't adequate to keep your head above water. Your ultimate goal should be to kick well enough that you don't need any added flotation.

I can't see how you could use a kickboard with vertical kicking without it unbalancing you. A better approach if you need added flotation would be to take a couple of empty 1-liter plastic soft drink bottles (with screw-on lids) and hold one under each arm.

If you have trouble carrying over your vertical kicking to whole stroke swimming, I would suggest that you start vertical kicking and then sort of "fall back" into a horizontal position while still kicking.


Bob

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 18th, 2005, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Bob McAdams


Have you ever tried rotating your body while you are doing vertical kicking? Rotating your body a quarter of a turn in either direction while you are doing vertical kicking should help you to get a feel for how to integrate your kick with your core body rotation.


Bob

This is a great drill for kicking. Also try kicking on your side, moving down the pool with out a kickboard.