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View Full Version : FINA allows dolphin kick for breaststroke



jonblank
July 22nd, 2005, 11:03 AM
Is anyone else disappointed at the new FINA decision to allow dolphin kick on breaststroke starts and turns? It may be that the "short-axis"strokes now become indistinguishable from one another! With this new FINA ruling and the currently-allowable armstroke breaking the plane of the water on recovery, why not go all the way back to the 1950's designation of "butterfly-breaststroke"? Kitajima's 2004 "victory" certainly prompted this ruling, but that doesn't make the decison a proper one.

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 22nd, 2005, 11:18 AM
Look at thje end of the world.

Rob Copeland
July 22nd, 2005, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by jonblank
Is anyone else disappointed at the new FINA decision to allow dolphin kick on breaststroke starts and turns?

Not me!

F'ueco
July 22nd, 2005, 04:22 PM
If this had been in affect years ago (when I was om high school and college) it would have helped me substantially. My breaststroke kick is truly weak.

TRYM_Swimmer
July 23rd, 2005, 07:50 PM
Terrible, terrible, terrible decision! We were always taught to keep our legs quiet on the turn; it's just part of the stroke.

Politics as usual in world organizations!

Been Racing Breaststroke Since 1955.

Phil Arcuni
July 23rd, 2005, 09:13 PM
Kitajima's 2004 "victory" certainly prompted this ruling, but that doesn't make the decison a proper one.

But the rule does not address what Kitajima did, it does not address the 'long-standing controversy' and it makes things more complicated for judges.

What happened in the infamous Kitajima's race is that he pushed off the wall, did a large butterfly kick, followed that with a pull down, and when he finished that pull down, pretty much simultaneously, he did another butterfly kick, and followed that with a breastroke kick.

The first butterfly kick has always been illegal and would never have been controversial. It is easy to judge as a violation of the rule. The second kick is difficult to judge, as if it occurs as a natural part of the pull down it is OK, and that kick, done often by breaststrokers, is controversial. A rule which allowed a significant kick during the pulldown could be justified as making judging easier, less controversial, and acknowledging what is almost common practice already.

However, the way the rule appears to be worded, things are not simpler. Now the judge could watch Kitajima's first kick, say in his mind "that's one" and when he saw the second kick, would wonder "is that an illegal or legal motion?" So really, the new rule allows a big dolphin kick and a still-controversial little one.

Sabretooth Tiger
July 24th, 2005, 04:41 PM
Has anyone got the applicable rule number so that those of us interested can read the new rule?

thanks in advance

carl

jonblank
July 24th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Here's the FINA link announcing the rule change. Note the allusion to the 2004 Olympics controversy.

http://www.fina.org/montreal05_press_techrules.html

By the way, backstrokers can now keep their feet dry on the start. As little as I understand anything about backstroke, I never could figure that one out. FINA got that ruling right, at least.

Phil Arcuni
July 24th, 2005, 06:45 PM
This is an interesting change. Depending on how the rule is worded (is there any statement of the actual wording of the new rules?) we may see backstrokers disappear under the water at the backstroke flags.

That does not seem very exciting for the spectators, but I will try it. Is it better to go to the wall with one arm overhead, or two?

As for the start, does this mean we can curl our toes around the gutters? If so, will they start putting little launch ledges, so those pools with flat walls won't have slower times than other pools with gutters? Will electronic pads need extra reinforcement on their tops so they don't get damaged during backstroke starts?

PeirsolFan
July 24th, 2005, 07:28 PM
Actually, Natalie Coughlin was - as FINA regulations allow - submerged well ahead of touching the wall for her win in Athens. But the backstroke rules continue to be tricky. That "continuous turn" should be re-vamped.

valhallan
July 24th, 2005, 09:35 PM
As you ponited out Phil...times in the non-gutter pools will definitely be slower by not having the gutter edge available as a launching pad. I always found it to be a huge help on the starts.

My interpretation is that... yes, you can place your toes over the gutter. But perhaps the heel is still required in the pool? It's not specific in the wording.

Blue Horn
July 24th, 2005, 09:44 PM
Anyone notice the guy to theright of Hansen do a huge dolphin kick on the start?

Hook'em
Blue

Phil Arcuni
July 24th, 2005, 11:26 PM
as FINA regulations allow - submerged well ahead of touching the wall for her win in Athens.

You are right, PeirsoFan. either I am outdated or I have entered an alternate universe from the one I was in. So what was the finish rule change about?

jswim
July 25th, 2005, 01:06 PM
It seems strange to me that the rules are being changed so dramatically. What exactly is the point of doing this? Is it so that the 'non-breaststrokers' can get better IM times? or so that the ones who couldn't quite perform the kick the way it was meant to be just get faster times?

Where does the line get drawn between improving technique or serious stroke issues, and just making things easier? Is the point to just get faster? To make the judging easier? If thats the case, why don't they just allow hand paddles, and fins while we swim? I thought that the idea of different strokes was that they were DIFFERENT strokes! not just a variation of the same kicking style.

years from now when people come up with new world record times in breaststroke that are way better than the current times, will people realize that the stroke was performed totally different at the time, or will they just assume that the future athletes are the better ones?

things that make you go hmmmmmm?

knelson
July 25th, 2005, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Phil Arcuni
As for the start, does this mean we can curl our toes around the gutters?

I'd also expect we'll see "standup starts" in pools where they can be done. Remember those? You stand on the edge of the gutter and lean over the top of the block. You can either get a really good start or a really good back smacker :)

valhallan
July 25th, 2005, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by jswim
years from now when people come up with new world record times in breaststroke that are way better than the current times, will people realize that the stroke was performed totally different at the time, or will they just assume that the future athletes are the better ones?

The same thing happened when the backstroke turn was revamped. The 50.0 second barrier was immediately lowered in the hundred yard distances as soon as the flip turn was allowed. Dolphin kicking only helped lower the time standards further.

If they didn't limit the distance of kicking allowed, there would to this day probably be a 100 meter dolphin kick event on one's back.

PeirsolFan
July 26th, 2005, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Phil Arcuni
You are right, PeirsoFan. either I am outdated or I have entered an alternate universe from the one I was in. So what was the finish rule change about?

(shrug) I couldn't figure it out. Perhaps the media confused it with the breastroke changes. FINA's rule SW 6.3 "It shall be permissible for the swimmer to be completely submerged during the turn, at the finish, and for a distance of not more than 15 meters after the start and each turn." That's been around for awhile.

In other news, I heard FINA is supposedly now pushing for indoor venues in future events because of the weather trouble in Montreal. That would be a nice change.

TRYM_Swimmer
July 26th, 2005, 10:22 AM
The reason it is called pulldown is that it should be performed (pull) with the arms and the other parts of the body: head, trunk, legs, should be "quiet." Period!!!

Sorry, fellow breaststrokers, our fraternity has been invaded by the body surfers who couldn't stand being passed in a blur during the third leg of the IM.

Sure makes workouts easy from now on, though. Just set after set of body dolphin for everyone!

End of rant. Back to our regular programming.

knelson
July 26th, 2005, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by PeirsolFan
In other news, I heard FINA is supposedly now pushing for indoor venues in future events because of the weather trouble in Montreal. That would be a nice change.

Weather delays stink, but I love outdoor meets. Swimming is meant to be done outdoors.

TheGoodSmith
July 26th, 2005, 11:48 AM
Dolphin kick on breastroke pull out.

Just say it for what it really is............ "cheating".



John Smith

aquageek
July 26th, 2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by knelson
Weather delays stink, but I love outdoor meets. Swimming is meant to be done outdoors.

I agree but given this ridiculous heat wave, our outdoor pool, which we get for the summer, the whole 10 lanes, was 90 degress this morning. It was brutal.

Allen Stark
July 26th, 2005, 04:06 PM
It's terrible,awful,heinous,evil,horrendous,and probably blasphemous. It's also just lazy,making it"easier" to judge. That said,when does the new rule go into effect(when should I start practicing it?)

Rob Copeland
July 26th, 2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Allen Stark
It's terrible,awful,heinous,evil,horrendous,and probably blasphemous. Makes you long for those good old days when your head had to stay above the water, your hands below it and you kicked like a frog.

Blue Horn
July 26th, 2005, 05:12 PM
If we are going to make all of these changes why don't we just change the two hand touch and allow people to use whatever type of turn is best. Seriously though, why have the two hand touch requirement?

Hook'em
Blue

Allen Stark
July 26th, 2005, 09:03 PM
I loved the 1986 Breaststroke rule change. It made breaststroke speed more dependent on streamlining and the stroke more beautiful. Before then any sport show that had a swimmer in the openig montage always had a butterflyer,now sometimes it's a breaststroker. As I read the new rule it is confusing. If the dolphin kick is part of the pull down I don't like it but it makes sense from a judging perspective. What I read doesn't say that ,It says a dolphin kick may be done before the breaststroke kick. I agree that means one could easily cheat and do 2 by making the big one before or after the pull down. Hopefully when the formal rule is printed it will clarify this.

Alicat
July 26th, 2005, 09:27 PM
So, does anyone know if the new rules were part of the new world record swim in the woman's 100 meter breast the other day?

Fritz
July 27th, 2005, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Alicat
So, does anyone know if the new rules were part of the new world record swim in the woman's 100 meter breast the other day?

They were not.

Jeff Commings
July 27th, 2005, 02:47 PM
The rule goes into effect in September.

joy
July 27th, 2005, 08:14 PM
If the rule goes into effect in sept. for fina. does that mean masters will vote on it at convention this yr for our effect this yr. So we may not be able to use it for some time yet. Correcto if incorrecto

michaelmoore
July 28th, 2005, 12:55 AM
Read USMS Rule book 601.4.6 - Amendment to USA Swimming articles 101, 102 and 105 are automatically be adopted unless the USMS House of Delegates votes to reject.

The FINA rule will be adopted. There is no reason not to.


michael

kaffrinn
July 28th, 2005, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by knelson
I'd also expect we'll see "standup starts" in pools where they can be done. Remember those?

I am so excited...I love stand-up starts! They are so much faster for me.

A.K.
September 7th, 2005, 09:27 PM
You can do a fly kick after your turn, your head can go under water after each stroke....these were all things I was DQd for 20 years ago.....what gives?

Karen Duggan
September 7th, 2005, 10:03 PM
I was told you still cannot curl your toes over the edge, anyone else heard that?

These rule changes are irritating to say the least. Why do we have to follow the Europeans? That's it I'm starting out for the new land and starting my own "free" swim colony. We will not be oppressed with all of these rules!!! And no taxes to the king either "p

breastroker
September 8th, 2005, 03:25 PM
If an American had started this dolphin cheating the rule would not have been adopted. FINA did the 1986 rule change because the europeans were beating us with a then illegal over the water recovery and the head dipping under water.

So when someone else in the world finds a way to cheat and beat the Americans, they change the rules.

The hard core breaststrokers like Allen and myself immediately tried the dolphin on the underwater after Kitijima's CHEATING.
It does work and is faster.

Note the rule allows only one dolphin, Kitijima did two off each start.

A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is permitted while wholly submerged. Following which, all movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement.

ande
September 8th, 2005, 04:11 PM
it's a shame we can't just dolphin kick till we run out of breath
off the start and each turn

since it's a new rule I've been working on it in practice trying to maximize the timing, speed and propulsion

ande



Originally posted by breastroker
If an American had started this dolphin cheating the rule would not have been adopted. FINA did the 1986 rule change because the europeans were beating us with a then illegal over the water recovery and the head dipping under water.

So when someone else in the world finds a way to cheat and beat the Americans, they change the rules.

The hard core breaststrokers like Allen and myself immediately tried the dolphin on the underwater after Kitijima's CHEATING.
It does work and is faster.

Note the rule allows only one dolphin, Kitijima did two off each start.

A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is permitted while wholly submerged. Following which, all movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement.

Sam Perry
September 8th, 2005, 06:32 PM
it's a shame we can't just dolphin kick till we run out of breath off the start and each turn

That rule works for me, lately I am lucky to get past the flags off a turn. To quote Jagger:

"What a drag it is getting old"

Swimmer Bill
September 8th, 2005, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Allen Stark
It's terrible,awful,heinous,evil,horrendous,and probably blasphemous. It's also just lazy,making it"easier" to judge. That said,when does the new rule go into effect(when should I start practicing it?)

LOL!

My thought was "Way to codify cheating!"

But then again, Masters swimming has allowed breaststroke kick in butterfly for years. I can understand allowing swimmers who learned it that way to do that (grandfather clause?).

However, I know a swimmer who breaks world records doing breaststroke kick in butterfly -- not because she learned it that way, but because she is a strong breaststroker. IMHO, that's an unfair and self-serving manipulation of the original intent of the rule, which was to allow the old-timers who learned it that way to do it that way.

If there's ever a rule change proposal to eliminate breaststroke kick from the butterfly in Masters competition, I'd vote yes. Emphatically!

Betsy
September 9th, 2005, 07:57 AM
Backstroke start - my understanding of the rule change is that the toes do not have to be underwater, but you cannot use the gutter.

breastroker
September 9th, 2005, 03:57 PM
I have to agree with Swimmer Bill.

I do love my breaststroke, but the coach and purist in me says get rid of the breaststroke kick in fly.


That being said when I was younger I placed third behind Charles Hickox and Duncon Scott in a 200 butterfly once using breast kick. And a couple of years later I won the 12th Naval District 200 fly using all dolphin kick, as the rules had been changed in AAU requiring it. Much sweeter:D

cinc3100
September 13th, 2005, 01:48 AM
Boy, what a strong breaststroke kick to set worlds records in fly.

art_z
September 21st, 2005, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by knelson
I'd also expect we'll see "standup starts" in pools where they can be done. Remember those? You stand on the edge of the gutter and lean over the top of the block. You can either get a really good start or a really good back smacker :)

Remeber them? Man do I miss them!! being 6'3" made it alot easier (and gave me a heck of an advantage) to do them rather than trying to curl up in a little ball for a regular backstroke start like I need to now :(

am I reading this correctly that you can now, again, put your feet on the gutter if one is available? It used to be that as long as part of your foot was in the water, you were ok, which I could live with. when they forced the whole foot under water, it made the start a nightmare, especially with slippery pads/walls, where it was impossible to launch yourself out at all.

geochuck
September 21st, 2005, 10:58 AM
Just wondering can we still use the dolphin kick for the fly????