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Jeff Commings
July 22nd, 2005, 11:04 AM
The dolphin kick will be allowed in breaststroke races soon. This will make Japan happy, as will it make a certain university in California vindicated that all of its breaststrokers have been doing that kick for at least 15 years.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/9740.asp

Personally, I don't want to do it. But of course I'll have to if I want to win against those who have total freedom to do it.

This is the worst rule change ever.

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 22nd, 2005, 11:09 AM
Originally, the dolphin kick was allowed inthe breast stroke. In a way we are only going back to the origin of the stroke. Does anyone know when the two were distinguished from one another? I think it was inthe late 50s. I know that it is mentioned in Swimmign Fastest.

ande
July 22nd, 2005, 11:10 AM
so is it in effect now?
if not when does it go into effect?

better start working on it

ande


Originally posted by Jeff Commings
The dolphin kick will be allowed in breaststroke races soon. This will make Japan happy, as will it make a certain university in California vindicated that all of its breaststrokers have been doing that kick for at least 15 years.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/9740.asp

Personally, I don't want to do it. But of course I'll have to if I want to win against those who have total freedom to do it.

This is the worst rule change ever.

patrick
July 22nd, 2005, 11:13 AM
good point Ande, when does it go into effect...this weekend? If so I hope Brendan is in the pool now working on it! I remember folks being upset about the "new" backstoke turn as opposed to the old sit spin, and frankly I'm glad the underwater dolphin kicking was defined to 15 m.

Paul Smith
July 22nd, 2005, 11:27 AM
Don't get to excited, just because FINA adopts it doens't mean its coming to masters anytime soon! There we're a couple of other changes they made ahile back as well, one was related to this (which i guess now is defunct) the other had two do with the transition from back to front into the backstroke turn.

Bob McAdams
July 22nd, 2005, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Jeff Commings
The dolphin kick will be allowed in breaststroke races soon. This will make Japan happy, as will it make a certain university in California vindicated that all of its breaststrokers have been doing that kick for at least 15 years.

Is this kick going to be allowed in addition to the underwater breaststroke kick that is allowed after the underwater pull (which is what happened at the Olympics)?


Bob

patrick
July 22nd, 2005, 11:35 AM
I don't know Paul, I just adviced a swimmer about his backstoke start who was going to a SCM meet sanctioned by FINA, and I didn't see much leeway in their rules as it applies to Masters swimmers. (I thought perhaps he could start on the wall which is legal in USMS, but my reading of the rules I adviced him to grab the block bars and start from the block). Most of their rules seemed to address mixed gender relays and I did notice the backstroke rule you noted.

Jeff Commings
July 22nd, 2005, 12:10 PM
The rule goes into effect 60 days from now. So Hansen doesn't have to worry. If Kitajima does the kick then he'll be DQ'd.

I'm thinking that this will be an allowable rule in masters as well, especially those run by FINA rules. Since every stroke we swim goes by FINA rules (except the breaststroke kick on fly), I imagine this will be allowed in 60 days.

I don't want to have to do this, even if it was allowed 50 years ago. But I'll start working on it when I go to swim tomorrow.

aquageek
July 22nd, 2005, 12:38 PM
I am completely in favor of this. My breast stroke stinks so any advantage that keeps me from finishing dead last is appreciated.

I think this is going to cause the breast stroke to be faster and we might see impacts on records in relays and individual events. A few big dolphin kicks coming off the wall over the course of a race will increase speed I would think. Anyone else agree?

scyfreestyler
July 22nd, 2005, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
I am completely in favor of this. My breast stroke stinks so any advantage that keeps me from finishing dead last is appreciated.

I think this is going to cause the breast stroke to be faster and we might see impacts on records in relays and individual events. A few big dolphin kicks coming off the wall over the course of a race will increase speed I would think. Anyone else agree? Oh, I agree but what do the records really mean? The rules have changed so any new record breaking time does not hold much water with me. A very similar situation is playing out with MLB. Players such as Barry Bonds are breaking HR records but what are those records really worth if they are using enhancement drugs?

resqme
July 22nd, 2005, 12:57 PM
My understanding of the rule will be only one dolphin kick off each wall will be allowed and only the down motion, but I might be mistaken.

Blue Horn
July 22nd, 2005, 12:57 PM
From the article it appears that you will only get one dolphin kick off the wall. I would also assume that one kick will be in addition to the the one underwater whip kick.

Hook'em
Blue

valhallan
July 22nd, 2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
A few big dolphin kicks coming off the wall over the course of a race will increase speed I would think. Anyone else agree?

I bet it 's going shave at least somewhere around a second off the walls. It won't be long until we see times in the :55 second range for 100 short course meters. (I think the scm record is mid :57 at the moment.)

Rob Copeland
July 22nd, 2005, 01:05 PM
We’re only talking about one (1) dolphin off the start and turns, not changing for the entire race.

It’s not the end of breaststroking as we know it, it’s not the worst rule change ever, it will not cause all the records to be meaningless, and it won’t add to global warming. However, it will most probably be adopted by USMS. But again it’s only 1 kick.

valhallan
July 22nd, 2005, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland
We’re only talking about one (1) dolphin off the start and turns, not changing for the entire race.

That's alot different than being allowed to pound out fifteen meters of dolphin kick as they do in the backstrokes races.

Still it's going to be relished as the new speed enhancer for the breastroke events.

Frank Thompson
July 22nd, 2005, 01:15 PM
I read what Jeff said and I am kinda of confused. Not being very good at breastroke and of course Jeff being excellent at it I will listen to his analysis. I went to the FINA Technical Conference link on the USA swimming website after reading what Phil Whitten said on Swim Info. My interpretation was that it can only be used at the start of the race after the dive and at every turn. Now I could be completely wrong thinking this way.

Basically I thought all they were doing is saying that what Kasuko Kitijimi did in Athens would be legal in the future and there would be less controversey. That swimming with the dolphin kick the whole race would not be permitted just one kick thrust like what was done in Athens.

Here is the quote. "During starts and turns while the swimmer is totally submerged, a single downward dolphin kick followed by a breastroke kick will be permitted. The new rule ends decades of controversies." From this I think you still have to swim regular breastroke like now for the the major portions of the race. I can see how in especially in Short Course that this will take the records down to another level.

Jeff Commings
July 22nd, 2005, 01:25 PM
Frank, I don't think anyone ever implied that you could dolphin kick between the walls. Just the one time off the start and turns. While the effect may be miniscule (about five tenths to a full second depending on ability and course), it has a larger meaning in swimming.

The cheaters got what they wanted. But maybe, as I think on it some more, we're leveling the playing field. The cheaters can't use it to get away with a few tenths on the turn. Now, of course, they'll have to find something else.

I just think that instead of changing the rule to allow a dolphin kick, FINA should train their judges on how to spot an illegal kick. Do clinics at major meets where they saw the bright lights affect their vision. Maybe put two judges on the end of the pool in each lane. Hold the swimmer accountable. Don't throw your hands up in frustration and say "I give up. Kitajima wins."

When I was an age group coach, I always told my kids who would do the dolhin kick that they think it's small, but there would always be a very observant official who would see it.

My observation of stroke judges these days is that the only things they need to look for anymore is whether two hands touch the wall on fly and breast, the turn is continuous on back, and the roll turn on back to breast is done without breaking the plane.

In conclusion, this ruling is making the officials' jobs easier.

Peter Cruise
July 22nd, 2005, 02:51 PM
ah, but watch what will happen...Kitajima & his like will test the boundaries if the new rules esp. off the start (adding little shudder motions, half-kicks etc) & ten years from now they'll be adding a second dolphin kick. A staunch breastroke traditionalist, I feel the proper place for practitioners of dolphin kick is at Marineland being thrown fish

aquageek
July 22nd, 2005, 02:53 PM
If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'.

matysekj
July 22nd, 2005, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
ah, but watch what will happen...Kitajima & his like will test the boundaries if the new rules esp. off the start (adding little shudder motions, half-kicks etc) & ten years from now they'll be adding a second dolphin kick. A staunch breastroke traditionalist, I feel the proper place for practitioners of dolphin kick is at Marineland being thrown fish

That's exactly what I've been thinking during the whole discussion of this rule change. The very same people who have pushed the limits with one dolphin kick up to now will begin working on getting away with two kicks in tomorrow's workout. I don't see anything positive about this change.

geochuck
July 22nd, 2005, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Jeff Commings
The dolphin kick will be allowed in breaststroke races soon. This will make Japan happy, as will it make a certain university in California vindicated that all of its breaststrokers have been doing that kick for at least 15 years.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/9740.asp

Personally, I don't want to do it. But of course I'll have to if I want to win against those who have total freedom to do it.

This is the worst rule change ever. Jeff I think many are going to rejoice over the new fina ruling. I was dq'd in breaststroke twice, once for jumping off the bottom, once in a 200 sc im for only swimming one breaststroke instead of two.

Jeff Commings
July 22nd, 2005, 03:42 PM
George, I think they're going to have to create an entirely new set of rules just for you. ;)

aztimm
July 22nd, 2005, 03:53 PM
So I'm assuming that we can still do things the 'old' way if we want to, or do we have to use this new way? My fly kick is very bad, which is one of the reasons I swim breast. I get far more distance from a breast kick than a fly kick, so I'd rather just leave things the way they are.

How do you jump off the bottom? Must be a shallow pool is all I could think. Do you mean instead of pushing off a wall, or between the walls?

I really don't see all that much in this anyway. When I swim 200 breast at state meets there are usually just a few guys in my age group, sometimes just me, especially for LCM. I mean we're doing masters swimming to stay fit and to relieve stress, aren't we?? Certainly not to create more stress.

geochuck
July 22nd, 2005, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by aztimm

How do you jump off the bottom? Must be a shallow pool is all I could think. Do you mean instead of pushing off a wall, or between the walls?


Our pool had a three foot ledge dividing the 9' from the 5' deep water, not only did I push off this ledge I grabbed it with my hands pulled then put my feet on it and pushed. The ledge was removed twenty years ago because of safety issues. You must understand this happenned when I was young and foolish.

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 22nd, 2005, 05:32 PM
Remeber what I wrote in my first submission to this thrread. The whole reason that there is a butterfly stroke developed was to distinguish the kick from breast. During WWII, and I think into the mid-1950s, you could do either kick. I'i'M STILL RESEARCHING WHEN THE DISTINCTION WAS MADE.

Bob McAdams
July 22nd, 2005, 06:48 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has said anything about the change in the FINA backstroke start rule. I found a more comprehensive description of all the FINA rule changes:

During the breaststroke start and turns, while the swimmer is wholly submerged, a single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is permitted. The new rule ends decades of controversies (the first one occurred in Berlin, in 1978, at the World Championships, the latest last year in Athens, at the Olympics).

The backstroke finish rule has officially been clarified. Now it is legal for a swimmer to be completely submerged not only during the turn but also during the last stroke.
Also in backstroke, swimmers are now allowed to start with their feet out of the water. It is no more mandatory that “The feet, including the toes, shall be under the surface of the water”.

As one who's had some bad experiences with my feet slipping on overly slippery touch pads during my backstroke start, I actually think this change is welcome (though I suspect it will provide a new way for backstrokers to improve their times, since they will be able to start with their bodies higher and will therefore be able to travel farther before they hit the water).


Bob

valhallan
July 22nd, 2005, 06:49 PM
Craig, This may answer you question....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_stroke

Bob McAdams
July 22nd, 2005, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Jeff Commings
I'm thinking that this will be an allowable rule in masters as well, especially those run by FINA rules. Since every stroke we swim goes by FINA rules (except the breaststroke kick on fly), I imagine this will be allowed in 60 days.

USMS also allows the backstroke start to be used in freestyle (which is illegal under USA Swimming rules and FINA rules), and also allows swimmers to start in the water rather than on the blocks (which is also legal under USA Swimming rules, but not under FINA rules).

In general, USMS has modified its rules to allow everything that is allowed by FINA, but not necessarily to ban everything that is banned by FINA.


Bob

Sam Perry
July 22nd, 2005, 08:12 PM
I remember when they penalized guys like Berkoff by only allowing 15M under water for backstroke. I see guys break the surface all the time past the 15M mark but they hardly ever get DQ'd for it.

For the lif of me I don't understand why it is 15M in SC pools also. Like it or not the backstroke sprints in short course are nothing but a contest to see who has the strongest dolphin kick and lung capacity. It is not a swimming race.

Breaststroke has changed so much over the years, I really wonder what world records would look like if you were still not allowed to drop you head below the surface of the water, and had to come up after one pull and kick, not while starting your second stroke.