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ande
August 1st, 2005, 10:20 AM
for those who love swimming

enjoy

The Mutual of Omaha Duel in the Pool is Tuesday
In just its second year, the Mutual of Omaha Duel in the Pool held this year in Irvine, Calif., on Aug. 2 will be a coming out party for some young stars, a chance for established stars to continue their domination and a chance for standouts entering their final quadrennial to further cement their legacies.

http://www.duelinthepool.com/

you'll find results at
http://www.omegatiming.com/

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 1st, 2005, 11:15 AM
They sure do make great posters for this event! The websit is pretty good also. People should check it out.

ande
August 2nd, 2005, 12:18 PM
the fun begins

en guarde

http://www.duelinthepool.com/Duel.htm

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2005, 12:25 PM
Any predictions? I am keeping my fingers crossed that Phelps, Hansen, Crocker, Peirsol, Coughlin, Hoff, and Sandeno put up a good fight and take another victory for the US. I don't want to have people over to watch the US lose this weekend you know!

Jeff Commings
August 2nd, 2005, 01:25 PM
I anticipate two world records.

Liesel Jones wants her 100 breast record back.

Ian Crocker wants to go under 50 in the 100 fly.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2005, 01:26 PM
A couple of questions:

Are the swimmers getting appearance fees or prize money?

Do you suspect there will be any dropoff following World's? I know I often have a little drop off in motivation following a big meet but I'm not in the same league, or universe, as these athletes.

hrietz
August 2nd, 2005, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
A couple of questions:

Are the swimmers getting appearance fees or prize money?

Do you suspect there will be any dropoff following World's? I know I often have a little drop off in motivation following a big meet but I'm not in the same league, or universe, as these athletes.

There is a $25,000 bonus for world records. Obviously the college swimmers are ineligible for this so if Hardy betters her world record she's out of luck...

justforfun
August 2nd, 2005, 01:45 PM
I'm curious to see who will swim which events. A swimmer can do 4 swims, including the relays. Where will the coaches put the multiple-event swimmers like Phelps, Coughlin, etc?

Does anyone know how many athletes will swim in each race? Will they fill the heats and have 4 from each country? Or, will there only be 2 per country...those who qualified for Worlds in that event?

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2005, 01:54 PM
I don't think there are any heats. Every event consists of only the main. I would not want the responsibility of choosing who swims in what event aside from the no brainers like Phelps in the IM races and Hansen in the breast races.

justforfun
August 2nd, 2005, 02:03 PM
I should have said "fill the lanes" instead of "fill the heats."

I think they should do mixed relays instead of all male and all female relays. Unfortunately, I don't think the relays will be particularly close. Barring a DQ or something strange, U.S. will win the 2 male relays and Australia will win the 2 female relays. But it would be really interesting if they were mixed.

ande
August 2nd, 2005, 02:22 PM
unless she gives up her eligibility
it's ridiculous how NCAA college swimmers are supposed to be amateurs.

If a football team has a great player who could go pro
but has more eligibility
as an incentive to stay and play
some schools provide injury policies.

It the athlete gets injured while playing college ball and becomes unable to enter the NFL draft he will recieve a multimillion dollar payment.

College ball players are essentially poorly paid pro athletes.

ande


Originally posted by hrietz
There is a $25,000 bonus for world records. Obviously the college swimmers are ineligible for this so if Hardy betters her world record she's out of luck...

ande
August 2nd, 2005, 02:23 PM
once it begins you'll find
Duel in the Pool results at
http://www.omegatiming.com/

Frank Thompson
August 2nd, 2005, 02:25 PM
In the last Duel in the Pool meet they had one heat per event for both Men and Women. Each country swam 3 swimmers a side and they used 6 lanes and had the two outside lanes empty. They started out with a the 400 Free Relay with the women going first and then the Men and ended with the 400 Medley Relay.

If I remember correctly, they have a lot of officals watching 2 lanes. In the last Dual in the Pool meet Libby Lenton was DQed after she won the 50 Free for a slight movement on the start. Also Natlie got DQed for the same thing in the 400 Medley Relay.

I think they let you swim 4 events plus relays. I know Phelps swam the 400 IM, 200 IM, 100 Fly, and 200 Fly. He got a WR in the 400 IM and he may have gotten another in the 200 IM. I remember he swam the 200 Fly late in the meet and was behind Tom Malchow and out touched him by .04 under the flags. He missed the WR by half a second. I also remember Edwin Moses swimming real well at this meet almost getting a WR in the 100 Breast. He split :59.7 in the 400 Medley Relay and at that time was the fastest split by an American.

Fishgrrl
August 2nd, 2005, 02:50 PM
Does anyone know if/when it'll be aired on TV? (i.e., ESPN, etc.)?

Thanks

Lane Mom
August 2nd, 2005, 03:18 PM
HI, I think that the TV coverage will be on ESPN. I know for sure that it will be on 1:00 P.M. PST this Saturday, August 6. Be sure to check your local sports listings. I found it in the SF Chronicle in both the sports section and the TV guide.

some_girl
August 2nd, 2005, 03:21 PM
NBC, this weekend. Sat. 4-6; Sun 12.30-2.

PeirsolFan
August 2nd, 2005, 06:24 PM
If you miss it or can't watch, I know someone who'll be posting videos online.

ande
August 2nd, 2005, 06:38 PM
the meet has begun
womens 4 x 100 free results are in
the aussies took the relay though US wasn't far behind

www.omegatiming.com

ande

tjrpatt
August 2nd, 2005, 06:44 PM
thanks for reminding me.

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2005, 07:59 PM
The US seems to be walking all over the Aussies in the points game. We just lost the 400 free to Hackett (Vanderkaay wound up right behind him) but we took 2,3, and 4th so we actually got more points that they did in that race.

tjrpatt
August 2nd, 2005, 08:07 PM
there seems to be alot of fast times going on at this meet. Hansen almost got his world record time. Lochte had a good 100 back time.

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2005, 08:31 PM
So far it looks as though this will be a good meet to watch this weekend. We just took 1,2,3 in the mens 200 IM. Phelps, Lochte, and Margalis respectively. Incredible performances by all of our athletes so far.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Phelps was within 1 second of his WR. Impressive indeed.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 3rd, 2005, 10:21 AM
Doesn't anyone wonder if everyone might not be just too tired?

ande
August 3rd, 2005, 11:37 AM
phelps swam a lot of events
400 IM, 200 IM, 200 fly, 100 fr on a relay
did remarkably well considering

liesel barely missed the WR in the womens 100 br

some swimmers were way off their times from worlds

well now we've got nationals to watch

Ande


Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
Doesn't anyone wonder if everyone might not be just too tired?

jswim
August 3rd, 2005, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
Doesn't anyone wonder if everyone might not be just too tired?

good point, I hadn't even thought of that. Thanks for the folks clueing us in to when it will be on. Can't wait to watch!


ps.side rant Why does everything now a days have to have the advertisers name in front of it? Does this bother anyone else?

The Chevy rose bowl
The Prudential Rolling Stones Tour
etc.. etc... etc...

It's starting to drive me crazy!

ok, done ranting. ;)

Jeff Commings
August 3rd, 2005, 01:02 PM
I was off about Ian going for his record, but not about Liesel. Boy, was she close!

Can't wait to see Brendan's 100 breast. Ever since 2003 Worlds, I've been anxious to see a sub-1:00 breast race. Hope they don't show the last 5 meters like they did at Trials.

TheGoodSmith
August 3rd, 2005, 01:05 PM
Seemed like a relatively uneventful meet to me. A couple of good swims, but for the most part there were some really off times.

If you take Thorpe and Hackett out of the Aussie line up, they have very little left. I think Australia better get their feeder programs going because when those two retire, they're virtually sunk.

Then again, the US swimming age group enrollment for boys is hurtin' pretty bad as well. Phelps is not a reflection of the general popularity and sucess of the sport here in the US. He is a lucky anomolly. We've got problems when it comes to increasing male enrollment and future success as well.


John Smith

justforfun
August 3rd, 2005, 01:32 PM
I agree about age group participation for boys. At USA swimming meets in our area, we typically have more than 2x the number of girls' heats compared to boys' heats. High school swimming is still somewhat popular, but unfortunately many of those participants aren't year-round swimmers.

Strange that our men's team is so strong despite this problem. It seems like right now we're riding the strength of Phelps and the Texas boys. Hopefully, we're not headed for a downturn when those guys retire.

Jeff Commings
August 3rd, 2005, 03:58 PM
This happened in 1988, when the US was riding on the shoulders of Janet Evans and Matt Biondi. Does anyone really remember anyone else (besides maybe Jager)? David Berkoff didn't perform as well as we hoped, distance free was laughable, and Mike Barrowman was just coming out of his shell.

Then 1992 came around and everything was getting better.

Everything happens in cycles. I expect 2008 to be USA Swimming's last great year until some other phenom comes along. It'll be the last hurrah for Phelps, Hoff and Katie Ziegler.

SwiminONandON
August 3rd, 2005, 04:13 PM
Phelps is already talking 2012 ... Ziegler and Hoff will only be like 20 and 19 ... Hoff will be finishing her freshman or sophomore year?

I'd be more worried about Coughlin, Sandeno, Beard, Joyce, Weir, etc. on the women's side and imagine losing Peirsol, Hansen, Crocker, Hall (perhaps officially), and a zillion others all at the same time ... yikes ... of course that is all assumption ...

cinc3100
August 3rd, 2005, 05:45 PM
Well, hopefully 2008 is a good year but the Chinese women maybe up to their own tricks of steriods since the olympics is in China. The Aussies have the best group of women swimmers for them, I think that good motviation for our women.

Blue Horn
August 3rd, 2005, 05:46 PM
We just need to repackage our sport to teenage boys. What other boy's sport do you go to practice and get a chance to look at girls in bathing suits or even get to see girls for that matter. This is no small matter for teenage boys. I still remember signing up for home-economics to meet girls in high school. All of my moron friends thought I was a fruit cake until they saw that I was one of two guys in a class full of girls (many of them cheerleaders - as a senior you could pick the time slot that you wanted). I can still remember their laughs turn into silence as I told them who else had signed up for the class.

Hook'em
Blue

cinc3100
August 3rd, 2005, 05:59 PM
Well, most of the guys in high school did swimming in order to go out on the water polo team when I was in school. I think that back in the 1960's and early 1970's the schools favored boys programs in school that why there were more boys in those days. I really don't know the stats for summer league, or age group in those days. I think many young guys rather spend time on their skateboards. Skateboarding was very new when I was a teenager.

ande
August 3rd, 2005, 06:01 PM
there's no need to worry
there will always be new crops of amazing elite swimmers

here's a few names to watch in the future

Taylor Smith 16, from California went 4:28 in the 500 free and swims just like Klete Keller.

Shane Fleming 13, from California went 24.7 recently in the 50 LCM free and as a 12 year old shane went 1:58 in the 200 y back. He's a scrawny 6'4" but still growing. his dad is 6'10"

Circle C may have a few phenoms emerge like Scott Spann
As a high school Junior I think he went 1:56 in the 200 breast

don't fret
there will be more

ande

tjrpatt
August 3rd, 2005, 06:08 PM
If participation is down, families probably can't put the money out since gas prices are out of control and wages are dropping like flies.

Sam Perry
August 3rd, 2005, 10:57 PM
If participation is down, families probably can't put the money out since gas prices are out of control and wages are dropping like flies.

So I guess we will now blame Bush for the drop in swimming also...

scyfreestyler
August 4th, 2005, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by ande
there's no need to worry
there will always be new crops of amazing elite swimmers

here's a few names to watch in the future

Taylor Smith 16, from California went 4:28 in the 500 free and swims just like Klete Keller.

Shane Fleming 13, from California went 24.7 recently in the 50 LCM free and as a 12 year old shane went 1:58 in the 200 y back. He's a scrawny 6'4" but still growing. his dad is 6'10"

Circle C may have a few phenoms emerge like Scott Spann
As a high school Junior I think he went 1:56 in the 200 breast

don't fret
there will be more

ande

I concur. Amazing athletes come and go. Sometimes they are plentiful and sometimes they are few but they will always be around. Scott Spann? It seems that the CIA agent that was killed in Afghanistan, Michael Spann, had a son and a wife he left behind. Any relation?

scyfreestyler
August 4th, 2005, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by tjrpatt
If participation is down, families probably can't put the money out since gas prices are out of control and wages are dropping like flies.

Hmm? So how is it that families can afford 200 channel satellite TV, video game systems,etc.? Gas is expensive for sure but I don't think we are in any sort of depression.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 4th, 2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Jeff Commings
This happened in 1988, when the US was riding on the shoulders of Janet Evans and Matt Biondi. Does anyone really remember anyone else (besides maybe Jager)? David Berkoff didn't perform as well as we hoped, distance free was laughable, and Mike Barrowman was just coming out of his shell.

Then 1992 came around and everything was getting better.

Everything happens in cycles. I expect 2008 to be USA Swimming's last great year until some other phenom comes along. It'll be the last hurrah for Phelps, Hoff and Katie Ziegler.

Many people say it started even further back. There was so little after the '76 Olympics; then the diaster with USSR & LA Olympics. Here in a small midwest corn town almost the only guys who swim come from really well off families. It is certainly not a community sport like it was when I grew up in the 60's & 70's.

The Duel in the Pool will either be great or really disappointing. I think that maybe we might get something from some guys but why swim your hardest for a meet that is only for bragging rights.

I wish more US swimmers participated regularly in the World Cup series! Last year, the Cup produced some great swims and some intersting competitions! The South Africans, northern Europeans, & Brazils were interesting to watch get experience. It is too bad that television can't manage to figure out how to produce a swimmign event that interests the general population. the competition at the Cup is so intense. I remember watching recorded events on Wide World of Sports. Arledge(sp) was really a genious at producing sports.

ande
August 4th, 2005, 11:10 AM
scott spann is the son of scott spann who swam for auburn and texas in the late 70's / early 80's. Scott held the american record in the 100 fly 47.22, swam a fast 100 breast, a decent 200 IM and a fast 100 free on the 4 x 100 free relay.

don't know if they are related to michael


Originally posted by 330man
I concur. Amazing athletes come and go. Sometimes they are plentiful and sometimes they are few but they will always be around. Scott Spann? It seems that the CIA agent that was killed in Afghanistan, Michael Spann, had a son and a wife he left behind. Any relation?

justforfun
August 4th, 2005, 11:14 AM
I hope the more optimistic folks, like Ande, are correct. I'm sure there are a number of very talented youngsters out there. I'm encouraged by the young U.S. women already having success and also by guys like Weber-Gale, Wildman-Tobriner, Grevers, etc. who are just on the verge of breaking through internationally.

What I'm most concerned about is the level of participation, esp. among boys, in the 8 & unders, 9 &10, 11&12 age groups at regional meets. I'm not sure how it compares to 5 or even 10 years ago, but I know it's much less than when I was a young swimmer. I wonder how much this has to do with the parents' perceptions about future opportunities for their boys. Other sports offer greater opportunity to make big money professionally or earn college scholarships.

We all know the great benefits of swimming participation, but maybe we don't do the greatest job relating those benefits to non-swimming parents.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 4th, 2005, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Blue Horn
We just need to repackage our sport to teenage boys. What other boy's sport do you go to practice and get a chance to look at girls in bathing suits or even get to see girls for that matter. This is no small matter for teenage boys. I still remember signing up for home-economics to meet girls in high school. All of my moron friends thought I was a fruit cake until they saw that I was one of two guys in a class full of girls (many of them cheerleaders - as a senior you could pick the time slot that you wanted). I can still remember their laughs turn into silence as I told them who else had signed up for the class.

Hook'em
Blue

In Illinois, the girls season is almost over before the boys even getintothe pool. As I've said most of the boys who swim here in Galesburg come from very elite families. Many also onthe tennis or golf team. All do really well. Our guys went undefeated last year & won conference. 7 guys went to state, that hasn't been done since I was in high school inthe '70s. But overall, swimming has a reputation here of being the hardest sport and one you've got tostart doing very young. Many peole don't see the guys as having talent, just a lot of years at the same sport.

Out football teams generally don't win a all season. We used to be a great basketball powerhouse. Now we can't get a if we bought one. The coaches of the popular sports are very underpaid and, I think, low quality. Yet the diving coach figured out that she got paid 75 cents a practice. the swim coach makes about $2.65 per practice.

Our swim team is generally one of the largest teams with as many as 17-20 guys. Even though it isn't popular. Nationally, I'm not sure what the numbers are. I would almost bet that they numbers aren't really lower it is just that swimming is so under the radar that we don't hear about it inthe general sports press. also, are there really any good commentators. Gaines might know a lot about swimming, but he is a terrible color analysis. And the woman who does diving has a terrible voice.

We need better advocates for the sport who are intersting & knowledge!

ande
August 7th, 2005, 10:49 AM
just a reminder part 2 of duel in the pool airs on NBC today
11:30 central

ande

dorothyrde
August 7th, 2005, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by ande
just a reminder part 2 of duel in the pool airs on NBC today
11:30 central

ande

Thanks, I will DVR, cause I gotta go swim at that time......

tjrpatt
August 7th, 2005, 12:17 PM
the duel in the pool is not as exciting to watch as the Worlds, Trials or the Olympics but we all to watch or DVR to support the sport. But, there were some good swims on yesterday's Duel. It will be cool to see Vanderkeey beat Hackett in the 200 free. Of course, it was great to see Hansen almost break his world record. When you see Brendan's older brother, it is hard to believe that they are brothers. But, they do seem to have a good relationship and Sean Hansen was really cool about Brendan beating him when Brendan was 14 and Sean was a senior in High school. I think that Brendan was taller than his brother at 14 too. Those Hansens are good people.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 7th, 2005, 01:50 PM
Who told Rowdy Gaines that he coudl do comentary? I'm watching Duel inthe Pool, I thinl that it has been really terrible coverage! I almost want to say, "Who cares?" The coverage is so hit-and-miss. I couldn't believe the silly comments about the women's IM relay that just finished. they completely threw any excitment by being so boring and using such terrible trite saying. this is why swimming is so boring on TV.

I thought the short little clips of races they didn't cover were nonsense. The guy doing the interviews is better than the desk comentators. He at least seems interested unlike the guy with Rowdy.

Does anyone think that any of the swims seem to matter? Maybe it is too close to worlds but this should have been more exciting. Why didn't the excitement from poolside translate oer the TV?

tjrpatt
August 7th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
Who told Rowdy Gaines that he coudl do comentary? I'm watching Duel inthe Pool, I thinl that it has been really terrible coverage! I almost want to say, "Who cares?" The coverage is so hit-and-miss. I couldn't believe the silly comments about the women's IM relay that just finished. they completely threw any excitment by being so boring and using such terrible trite saying. this is why swimming is so boring on TV.

I thought the short little clips of races they didn't cover were nonsense. The guy doing the interviews is better than the desk comentators. He at least seems interested unlike the guy with Rowdy.

Does anyone think that any of the swims seem to matter? Maybe it is too close to worlds but this should have been more exciting. Why didn't the excitement from poolside translate oer the TV?

I was so bored watching this meet and I was no annoyed that this was on and yet, none of the networks could have put some Worlds coverage. The Fox network could have done an hour coverage on last Saturday and Sunday just to highlight the great races. I really don't want to pay the extra money to watch Worlds on Fox College Sports. Of course, I might have to in the future to get some exciting swimming coverage. I basically only watch the Duel to support the sport. They should pass the mic over to Janet Evans or somebody.

Jeff Commings
August 7th, 2005, 03:21 PM
I think Dan and rowdy did the best they could given the situation. Duel in the Pool, as has been said, is not the Olympics or Worlds. Besides Brendan and Liesel Jones, nothing really exciting came from the meet.

Watching all the relaxed finishes by people like Phelps and Piersol, it's obvious the swimmers don't give that much importance to the meet. They know it's a publicity campaign, and just showing up is enough.

As TV commentators, I suppose they could try to create some drama, but it's hard when they see the swimmers not giving it their all.

The only problem I had with the coverage was all the beer commercials. In a sport where the average swimmer is under drinking age, it's a bad call for NBC to let beer companies advertise on the show. US Swimming doesn't let alcohol or tobacco companies advertise on any of their meets, so why let NBC do so ont heir TV coverage. I'm sure USAS could have had some say in it.

It's almost offensive, if you ask me, to have a beer commercial come right after the USA Swimming commercial that had images of 10-year-old kids.

Bad call.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 7th, 2005, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Jeff Commings
I think Dan and rowdy did the best they could given the situation. Duel in the Pool, as has been said, is not the Olympics or Worlds. Besides Brendan and Liesel Jones, nothing really exciting came from the meet.

Watching all the relaxed finishes by people like Phelps and Piersol, it's obvious the swimmers don't give that much importance to the meet. They know it's a publicity campaign, and just showing up is enough.

As TV commentators, I suppose they could try to create some drama, but it's hard when they see the swimmers not giving it their all.

The only problem I had with the coverage was all the beer commercials. In a sport where the average swimmer is under drinking age, it's a bad call for NBC to let beer companies advertise on the show. US Swimming doesn't let alcohol or tobacco companies advertise on any of their meets, so why let NBC do so ont heir TV coverage. I'm sure USAS could have had some say in it.

It's almost offensive, if you ask me, to have a beer commercial come right after the USA Swimming commercial that had images of 10-year-old kids.

Bad call.

I didn't notice the beer commercials. I wonder why the networks won't show any of the world cup competition? I wonderif NBC thought that the "nationalism" of the Duel in the Pool might stir up soem excitement?

dorothyrde
August 7th, 2005, 06:59 PM
I fast forwarded past all the commercials.

Allen Stark
August 7th, 2005, 07:59 PM
I have complained about swim announcers, especially Rowdy before so I won't get into another rant. I was at World Masters Games in Edmonton and USA Swimming should get their announcer. He announced hundreds of heats and made them all sound exciting. It was amazing.(Unfortunately ,since it was seeded by time and not age he frequently missed commenting on great swims by older swimmers.)

tjrpatt
August 7th, 2005, 08:22 PM
I hate those beer commericals. It is all about, Let's smashed after our workout. CNBC did have some World Cup Events but they should have it one more often. Is anyone going to broadcast highlight events from Nationals or that is just not that important.

Regarding the Duel, That Peter Vanderkay is really benefiting from being coached by Bowman and training with Phelps. His performance in the 200 free was really good. Hackett didn't know what hit him. The Australian press is a little harsh, saying that "Ian Who?". But hey, in Australia, swimming gets the top headlines which is just wonderful.

PeirsolFan
August 8th, 2005, 04:34 AM
Why does everyone keep asking why Duel was shown instead of Worlds? It's all about money. Whether NBC paid Mutual of Omaha or they paid NBC, it doesn't really matter.

jswim
August 8th, 2005, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Allen Stark
I have complained about swim announcers, especially Rowdy before so I won't get into another rant. I was at World Masters Games in Edmonton and USA Swimming should get their announcer. He announced hundreds of heats and made them all sound exciting. It was amazing.(Unfortunately ,since it was seeded by time and not age he frequently missed commenting on great swims by older swimmers.)

Speaking of announcer issues. I noticed during the women's 100 breast, one of the announcers said that (I forget now) I think it was Jones, had a terrible start and was slow off the blocks compared to Hardy, however, Jones did a standard start, and hardy a track start which is naturally faster off the blocks anyway. Am I missing something, or was that a misleading statement?

Jeff Commings
August 8th, 2005, 12:04 PM
No, Liesel had a slow start. She had a better start at Worlds and at Olympics.

Frank Thompson
August 8th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Actually it was Rowdy Gaines that said that Liesel Jones had terrible start and was slow off the blocks compared to Jessica Hardy. He said nothing about the differences in there starts. From a viewers standpoint it looked like Hardy got an advantage right away. I went to the Omega site and found the reactions times from both swimmers. It turns out that Hardy's start had a reaction time of .68 compared to Jones at .82 and Hardy's split was :31.07 to Jones at :31.49. In comparison to the final at the World Championships, Hardy was at .66 and Jones was at .83 and Hardy's split was identical at :31.07 but Jones was faster at :31.31. Since Jones missed the World record by .01, I believe Rowdy was correct in saying that a faster start would have produced a World Record. I think Liesel Jones has been tranditionally slower off the blocks than others because I did not see a reaction time of better than .80 from the results of meets on the Omega site.

Roland Schoeman is known for having a very quick start off the blocks and his reaction times show that. Nick Brunelli also has a quick start and he is one of the better ones from the USA.

jswim
August 8th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Thanks,
what is the omega site? I didn't realize they kept track of the reaction times for starts.
Is it true that the standard two foot start is slower off the blocks than the track start, or did I get bad information there?

Jeff Commings
August 8th, 2005, 05:01 PM
www.omegatiming.com

The track start gets you a faster reaction, but does not guarantee a better start.

A swimmer using the conventional start has the strength advantage of using the power of both legs equally on the start. But there's the disadvantage of not having the body position to explode off the blocks quickly.

Swimmers using a track start get quick reactions and are off the blocks first. But my observation is that they lose that advantage because they push off from the blocks first with their back foot, then their lead foot. So they're not using the strength of both legs at the same time. It's one, then the other.

In essence, two swimmers of equal strength and ability on the blocks will have different starts. The track start guy will look like he's in the lead, but the normal start guy will use his strength to get into the water at a faster speed and catch the lead swimmer after entry.

Watch the men's 400 free in Athens. Everyone exploded off the blocks ahead of Ian Thorpe, but he was even with them at the 15-meter mark, the typical place for breakouts in elite swimming.

You'll argue that Ian's stronger, but I don't think so.

Bottom line is do the start you're comfortable with.

Allen Stark
August 8th, 2005, 05:24 PM
For a good review on starts see Wayne's article "Is the Grab Start dead" at breaststroke.info.

jswim
August 8th, 2005, 05:29 PM
Great,
Thanks for the info!
Jeanette.

valhallan
August 8th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by jswim

Is it true that the standard two foot start is slower off the blocks than the track start, or did I get bad information there?
The track start is helpful in preventing false starts. Everyone at one time or another has seen the "teeter tottering" of the one swimmer who's leaned just a bit too far on their grab start ...and can't stand back up when the official does a recall. The track start is a safety in preventing this.

Two legs are better than one in my opinion, even if the majority of swimmers are using the track start. I agree with Jeff's observations.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 9th, 2005, 10:12 AM
Some one needs to compare the times and finally look to determine if the track start gets peole inthe water sooner. My guess is that it doesn'treally matter which start you use but how you feel about your start that counts.

Frank Thompson
August 9th, 2005, 11:23 AM
Jeff, I agree with everything you are saying. Years ago Swimming Technique magazine had an article about the comparison of the two starts and listed the pro and con view points of each one. They interviewed swimmers and asked them why they preferred one over the other.

One of the points they made was just because you have a faster reaction time does not necessarily mean that you have a better start. Body entry into the water, streamlining after entry with kicking, and distance to the surface after entry before taking a stroke. I have a tape of Athens and I will watch Ian Thorpe and see how he does with his grab start in comparison.

One thing I have noticed is that I don't see a lot of people in the distance events using the track start as much as I see sprinters using them. That seems logical because the start is a bigger % of the race for sprinters than distance people.

aquageek
August 9th, 2005, 11:52 AM
I prefer the track start for the sole reason it doesn't require the flexibility of the hamstrings that the traditional start does. Alternatively, I could be doing both wrong.

swimgal
August 11th, 2005, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
I prefer the track start for the sole reason it doesn't require the flexibility of the hamstrings that the traditional start does. Alternatively, I could be doing both wrong.
I completely agree, as one who was not blessed with flexibility. I also switched to a track start back in high school because it kept me from false starting on blocks with a heavy slant. Like people have said, you do what is most comfortable for yourself.

I was at Duel in the Pool this year, and also watched it on TV, and I have to admit that neither was really "exciting" in the traditional sense. Didn't even compare to the energy last year in Long Beach at Trials, but there wasn't as much on the line either. It didn't help that it was a total blowout, with the American men so dominant over all the Aussie men except Hackett. But, the live announcer (not the NBC ones) was fantastic. I don't know if he's with Novaquatics (the host) or NBC, but he had the crowd cheering for one thing or another the whole time. If he's not with a broadcast company, he should be.

I thought NBC's coverage was great though. I've personally loved swimming since I was a kid, but in my experience, most swim meets are roughly as exciting as watching water boil. NBC mixed it up with interesting backgrounds on different swimmers (from BOTH teams no less), and I thought it was great that they always interviewed the winner, even if an underdog won the race. They made it clear that the US has a team beyond the Michael Phelps Show, and I have to appreciate that. I do, however, think it's a little weird that this meet found the $ to get a major broadcast, and Worlds did not.

Jeff Commings
August 11th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Swimgal, I doubt it was a question of money. FINA is most likely not hurting financially. Though I do believe that Mutual of Omaha and USA Swimming offered a lot of advertising money. No one could say no to that.

PeirsolFan
August 11th, 2005, 10:47 PM
Article Courtesy of Eurosport

Busy calendar brings calls for change

The world swimming championships ended on Sunday with pleas from coaches and swimmers for a return to staging the event once every four years. "We'd really like to encourage the world championships to be once every four years," said U.S. coach Dave Salo. "It's just such a crowded calendar.

"You've got short-course worlds coming so quickly after the Olympic games and this meet coming so quickly, you don't get a chance to take a breath and I think that we're in agreement that we'd like to see a calendar that's better managed."

While the championships produced nine world records and plenty of thrills, they were missing many of the top attractions, including Olympic champions and world record holders Ian Thorpe of Australia and Pieter van den Hoogenband and Inge de Bruin of the Netherlands.

Michael Phelps, winner of an unprecedented eight medals in Athens, provided the event with a badly needed "big name" but the American produced a mostly lethargic, uninspired performance that left questions about his ability to dominate the sport.

He still won five gold medals and a silver, but failed to put his mark on the competition the way he had in Athens.

Some of the problems were of his own doing.

The Olympic champion and world record holder in the 400 metres individual medley and 200 butterfly, Phelps dropped both from his world championship programme and replaced them with the 100m and 400m freestyle, looking to experiment during his buildup to the 2008 Beijing Summer Games.

CLUTTERED CALENDAR

Phelps' coach Bob Bowman felt it was time to take control of an increasingly cluttered swimming calendar.

"I personally think we should have one world championships in between the Olympics just like we use to do, that would be the best," said Bowman. "It's just to hard to get up every year.

"The year after the Olympics no matter what you do, if you are very successful in the Olympics, it is next to impossible to match that the next year."

Relief for the world's top swimmers, however, would appear far away.

Pointing to the record number of swimmers and countries (143) in Montreal, FINA president Mustapha Larfaoui dismissed any suggestion that world swimming's governing body might return to staging the championships once every four years.

The 2007 championships will be held in Melbourne, Australia while FINA announced at the opening of competition that the 2009 worlds had been awarded to Rome.

"I think it's the exact opposite," said Larfaoui. "We have a large number of athletes and swimmers wanting to compete."

The president also said the troubled Montreal championships, which FINA had stripped from the city then returned a few weeks later after receiving financial guarantees, were a success despite running an estimated $4 million deficit and failing to meet modest attendance targets selling just 160,000 tickets.

swimgal
August 13th, 2005, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Jeff Commings
Swimgal, I doubt it was a question of money. FINA is most likely not hurting financially. Though I do believe that Mutual of Omaha and USA Swimming offered a lot of advertising money. No one could say no to that.
Yes, that's what I meant, with regard to raising money. Sponsors, not FINA. I wonder if FINA's even allowed to pay for coverage. Anyway, CBC and Eurosport both covered Worlds, so I'm surprised it was such a hard sell in the U.S. Although maybe Mutual of Omaha's contract precluded NBC from airing Worlds... could be that either they or NBC thought that back to back weeks of swimming was too much, and Duel may have been on the TV schedule first.

PeirsolFan, thanks for posting that article. Interesting. A little overkill to call Phelps lethargic and uninspired... it wasn't an Athens performance, but when you can have an off meet swimming off events and still win that many medals, "lethargic" should not be used as a descriptor of your performance. If memory serves, he swam a best time in winning the 200 free. The only thing uninspired was the complete lack of publicity for the event in the US.

PeirsolFan
August 13th, 2005, 04:50 AM
Good questions raised about FINA and the financial status of swimming. Just not popular enough for NBC. 160,000 ticket sales is considered a flop in their eyes. It's not a rock concert! :P

Frank Thompson
August 13th, 2005, 10:52 AM
One of the reasons why the World Championships was not on a major network was because it was cancelled for about 3 weeks back in January of this year. ESPN and ESPN 2 were ready with signed contracts to broadcast the meet. When FINA cancelled the meet in Montreal and opened up bids in Athens, Berlin, and Moscow, ESPN canncelled its coverage. After 3 weeks of cancellation, FINA brought back the meet to Montreal because supposedly the financial concerns were worked out. By that time the summer schedules were pretty much booked up and no major networks wanted to risk with this after the initial cancellation.

I believe if the meet would not have been cancelled originally, you would have seen the same coverage that was provided by ESPN and ESPN 2 for 2003 in Spain. FOX Sports announced it was covering the meet but did not make an announcement until a week before the meet that it would be covered on there College Sports Net Network. I happen to see both the CBC coverage and the last half of the FOX College Sports Net and Fox did a great job. They showed everything live and even carried all of the awards presentations up until 8:00 PM each night. They had 2 hours coverage for all of the 8 days the meet was going on. They showed all of the 800 and 1500 Free which you never get to see on regular TV. They did not interupt any event and had no highlights of events. They showed everything like you were at the meet. I don't if this is the future of swimming on TV, but I enjoyed the coverage.

Frank Thompson
August 13th, 2005, 02:56 PM
In One Year:

One Swimmer:

26,208 goggle adjustments

2,184 practice hours

17 swim suits

1 shot of Glory

Then we hear a "take your mark, beap" Then we see Katlin Sando raising her arms up in victory from the 800 Free Relay in Athens.

Mutual of Omaha

Proud Sponsor of USA swimming.

I saw this on TV today. What do people think of this ad.

Karen Duggan
August 16th, 2005, 11:17 AM
That's a lot of goggle adjustments! Who knew!! Cool ad.

I am still a fan of the both feet forward start. I played with the track start and I did get in the water sooner- as to say I didn't get out as far (distance wise) as with two feet; so because I entered the water sooner, it felt quicker. I also went deeper. Being a mid-distance person, I've decided to stay with my two-foot start (it's pretty good- I usually come out ahead of my heat, and then, drat, I have to swim! :p )

Two-footers of the world UNITE! :)

scyfreestyler
August 16th, 2005, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
In One Year:

One Swimmer:

26,208 goggle adjustments

2,184 practice hours

17 swim suits

1 shot of Glory

Then we hear a "take your mark, beap" Then we see Katlin Sando raising her arms up in victory from the 800 Free Relay in Athens.

Mutual of Omaha

Proud Sponsor of USA swimming.

I saw this on TV today. What do people think of this ad.
Sounds like a pretty awesome commercial to me. I may be slightly biased though, I am a big fan of Kaitlin Sandeno.

swimgal
August 17th, 2005, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
In One Year:

One Swimmer:

26,208 goggle adjustments

2,184 practice hours

17 swim suits

1 shot of Glory

Then we hear a "take your mark, beap" Then we see Katlin Sando raising her arms up in victory from the 800 Free Relay in Athens.

Mutual of Omaha

Proud Sponsor of USA swimming.

I saw this on TV today. What do people think of this ad.

I saw this ad too, thought it was great. A little exaggerated in the "one shot" aspect (Kaitlin in particular has already been to the Olympics twice, I believe), but clever and well produced.

Thanks for the info on the ESPN background. I didn't know all that about ESPN backing out after Montreal lost Worlds originally, and I can't say I blame them.

SwiminONandON
August 17th, 2005, 10:29 AM
Do you realize that 2,184 hours of practice a year translates to 42 hours per week ... I don't think even the best of the distance swimmers are doing 42 hours a week, that's 7 hours a day 6 days a week ... that's A LOT!

Frank Thompson
August 17th, 2005, 07:20 PM
I agree. I wonder where Mutual of Omaha got there figures. Those hours are as much as some people work in a year.

I also would question the goggle adjustments. If you swam 52 weeks a year, you would have 504 goggle adjustments per week. I could believe the 17 swim suits because a lot of swimmers get them from sponsors and they are free.

Jeff Commings
August 17th, 2005, 07:59 PM
I don't believe any of the statements they made. I say this because I've been a swimmer for 27 years and have been around many, many swimmers.

** Most swimmers do not go through 17 suit changes in a year. They might go through five. They get a couple of drag suits and then they buy another when one wears out because they don't take care of them. And then one or two competition suits, one for unshaved meets, one or two more for the big meets. I've only had three suits in the past three years: one drag suit that has not faded in two years, one regular competition suit and one Aquablade. Even when I was sponsored by Speedo, I only got (read: asked for) eight suits in those two years.

** Not even Larsen Jensen could swim 2,184 practice hours. Even if you include dryland. The top swimmers are actively working out 6 hours a day, and many don't swim every day, and swim less during taper and meet days. The only person I can see doing this is Michael Phelps, who swims every day. He'd log in 2,190 hours. And he's not typical.

I can't vouch for the goggle adjustments, but it seems like a lot in one year. I think that swimmer needs tighter or new goggles.

Karen Duggan
August 17th, 2005, 10:01 PM
Debbie Santos was telling me that Nike gives their athletes a couple of suits per event. One swimmer was given 12 suits for one meet....

SwiminONandON
August 18th, 2005, 09:57 AM
Nike would need to since their suits fall apart after one race ... I am not at all impressed with anything Nike swim ... but that is a story for a different day ... I probably adjust my goggles 30 times a practice if we have a long interval they come off then I play with them several times before I go on my interval ... if that is considered an adjustment then there ya' go ...

I think many swimmers do work out 6 hours a day but they do that 4 days a week and do 3 or so the other two, right? That's always the impression I got 4 days of doubles, one weekeday the morning or afternoon is off and then on Saturday a 3 or maybe four hour workout ...

EDITED to add ... NCAA also limits workouts to 20 hours a week now there are ways of skirting around that of course but most teams do about 20 hours week when in-season and that's where most of the top swimmers are training ... there are of course exceptions (Larsen Jensen took last year off of NCAA for example so he could train more for the Olys)