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ande
August 1st, 2005, 10:23 AM
anyone have any comments on this?

U.S. Coach Is Suspicious Of China's Swim Program
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/31/AR2005073101119_pf.html

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 1st, 2005, 11:12 AM
I wonder what we would say if Italy had done better or worse? I remember at Sydney, many people said that their men were all doped up. Or are we so suspicious a country that we no longer believe any truth?

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 1st, 2005, 11:13 AM
I wasn't going to put this in. I don't want to upset anyone & I'm not calling anyone a cheater. I think it use to be the standard thought about cheaters. My father use to say that the biggest cheater was always the loudest mouth.

tjrpatt
August 1st, 2005, 05:20 PM
If they were up to their 1992 sheninigans again, I wouldn't be surprised. Remember, people did suspect South Africa after they won the relay at Athens. All that was was US college coaches in heat to get foreign swimmers on their college programs because they wouldn't talk back to the coaches like the American swimmer would. What coach wouldn't want a swimmer who is happy to be in this country and willing to what the coach says.

scyfreestyler
August 1st, 2005, 05:34 PM
Any athlete that wins by cheating is still a loser.

hmlee
August 1st, 2005, 07:46 PM
It's interesting that the fact that they ARN'T dominant is now what's raising suspicion about their possible use of doping. Seems like it's almost a lose-lose situation for them. If they win too much, they're doping, and if they lose too much, they're doping. Odd.

hrietz
August 2nd, 2005, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by tjrpatt
If they were up to their 1992 sheninigans again, I wouldn't be surprised. Remember, people did suspect South Africa after they won the relay at Athens. All that was was US college coaches in heat to get foreign swimmers on their college programs because they wouldn't talk back to the coaches like the American swimmer would. What coach wouldn't want a swimmer who is happy to be in this country and willing to what the coach says.

After watching the Worlds this past week on Fox College Sports, I couldn't help but notice how much bigger (muscular) Schoeman is compared to the others. Unfortunately in this day and age I can't help but be suspicious...

Matt S
August 2nd, 2005, 05:43 PM
I read the article at the link, and if it is an accurate summary of the coach's remarks, I'm not impressed.

Don't you think it's a bit premature to start hollerin' about Chinese wunderkind who anyone has yet to see? Let's follow the chain of speculation:
- the Chinese swimmers weren't as strong as suspected
- they did not send their best or most promising athletes
- because they are on steriod or drug regimes that would be detected right now
- they will continue on these regimes for the next three years, undetected, and we will hear zippo about what they are really doing
- they will clean up their act before the 08 Olympics in Beijing and be able to pass all drug tests
- still benefiting from the illegal drug regimes, they will then kick everyone's butt in 2008.

Am I the only one to see several yawning chasms in that chain of logic requiring Olympic leaps of faith? Gee the Chinese kinda sucked compared to what we expected of them. Maybe they didn't send all their best swimmers. Golly Sgt Carter! Neither did we or the Aussies! Thorpe, not there. Beard, doing a modeling gig. Hoogie, recovering from surgery. Phelps, not swimming all his strongest events. If I recall correctly, the Chinese divers weren't their usual dominant selves either. Maybe it's because that just like we did, some of their best swimmers did not see this meet as a tip top priority?

I'm sure Coach Salo is a superb coach, and I do mean to make light of his professional qualifications at all. But please spare us all the conspiracy theory. It does not help in the real struggle to get effective measures combating illegal doping when the most prominent coaches in the U.S. make wild, unsubstantiated accusations.

Matt

PeirsolFan
August 2nd, 2005, 06:04 PM
I may be a Peirsol fan (Salo has coached Aaron since he was 7), BUT to talk like that without clear evidence is poor sportsmanship. I also find it a bit hypocritical considering there were no moves made to reclaim Hansen's gold medal after the entire swimming community clearly saw Kitajima perform an illegal kick.

I trust in FINA to test accordingly with the knowledge that they wont catch everyone. Get better at testing masking agents, please. They do follow-up a lot on people who have previously tested positive. Case in point, Laura Azevedo of Brazil. Right as her suspension was lifted they requested a sample and she refused to submit one. She's out for life.

China is worth a review during heats in 2008 if Salo thinks that's when they'll be out in the open. I don't recall if they actually watch you pee (think so) or if you get some privacy, but they test a lot right before or right after you swim. One positive test for steroids should put you out of the sport for life.

tjrpatt
August 2nd, 2005, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by PeirsolFan
I may be a Peirsol fan (Salo has coached Aaron since he was 7), BUT to talk like that without clear evidence is poor sportsmanship. I also find it a bit hypocritical considering there were no moves made to reclaim Hansen's gold medal after the entire swimming community clearly saw Kitajima perform an illegal kick.
.

Peirolfan,
If Hansen was from another country, FINA would have looked into the illegal kick. But, there seemed to be an anti-US bias in that particular situation. But, in the end, Kitajiama is not the breatstroker that Hansen is and Hansen wasn't at his best at the Olympics.

PeirsolFan
August 3rd, 2005, 01:50 AM
I think Hansen was on target at the Olympics. My point is that if a coach is going to stand up and take issue with something and speak out, well, the time for that came and went.

Frank Thompson
August 3rd, 2005, 02:21 PM
I was kinda of suprised at David Salo's comments especially after the announcement by the WADA. At the start of the World Championships, Dick Pound, President of the World Anti-Doping Agency said that his agency will work with China to insure its national anti-doping measures are sufficient to weed out drug cheats before the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. "We'll work with the Chinese to make sure their anti-doping apparatus is adequate," Pound said. "We know the Chinese don't want to be embarrassed by having cheats at their own games." He does not think the host country would risk being embarrassed by a major drug scandal like the 1990's in front of the world stage.

The WADA was at the meet to conduct tests in conjunction with FINA. Right now they are off to Helsinki to do the same thing at the World Track and Field Championships. I think Salo's comments really ticked off Dick Pound. Pound says "If there is a problem, identify it. If there is not, keep quite." He pretty much made the same remarks that hmlee made when he said this. The WADA found 17 of 4000 Chinese athletes tested positive for drugs last year.

FINA has stated that they have stepped up their efforts as well. FINA reported that it performed 33 unannounced drug tests on 20 Chinese swimmers so far this year and no chinese swimmer has tested positive. For comparison, FINA performed 107 tests on 79 US swimmers and 3 tested positive. Mustapha Larfaoui, President of FINA, said his organization was at the forefront on the fight against illegal substances and criticism was unwarranted. He did acknowledge that all sports are facing a tough fight to ensure fair competitions. "We're in a struggle that's impossible to win. We're going to win some struggles, but we're not going to win the war. The labs are working very hard to come up with new drugs. Can we ensure total cleanliness? No. I can't committ to that. But we're using all the controls we can to ensure the sport remains clean."

From these comments from both Pound and Larfaoui, does there seem to be a lack of trust here in the USA from coaches and others that they cannot perform the tasks and duties there organzations say they can? Pound has said its impossibe to weed out 100% of the cheaters. "I am kind of cynical about these things. In many cases, if you haven't tested postive, that only means you haven't tested positive. It would be naive to think everyone here in Montreal is clean. I hope we can catch some of those who are not."

Another statement that sent shock waves was the one by John Leonard, the head of ASCA. He said a Chinese Coach told him that 50 to 100 swimmers that were selected for development in China have essentially disappeared. That China is secretly traning these swimmers outside the international spotlight so they won't be subject to drug testing. They will not travel and attend competition until shortly before 2008 when they will suprise the world.

Does this sound familar? That you could go into hiding, train away secretly all year, get stuffed with steriods, HGH, EPO, etc, and be safe in the knowledge that you would not be caught. Then taper off or completely be off the drugs prior to 2008, becauce the drugs had already done the required in months if not years before and dominate the games. I think this is what people are suspicious of.

Can China not repeat the mistakes it made in the past? Are they not capable of producing World Class performances without drugs? Are we insulting them? Are we still paranoid about what happened in the past?

Frank Thompson
August 3rd, 2005, 02:33 PM
Here is a link about what happened in the past on drugs. www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/swimming/drugs/table.htm

Frank Thompson
November 12th, 2005, 05:12 PM
There is an interesting commentary by Phil Whitten on Swim Info website in reaction to statements made by Dick Pound and Sentors John McCain and Jim Bunning about how doping in sports is a serious problem and will be dealt with seriously, but its not criminal. Phil explains why he believes its criminal. You have to be a premium member of the Swimming World website to be able to read this.

Tom Ellison
November 12th, 2005, 09:12 PM
What I believe is criminal is the organizations we have supported for years that turned their backs to this problem for a long, long time...and when anyone spoke one sentence about their lack of support...they got hammered....as posted in another thread here…..
Granted...some of these organizations are now taking action against drug use.....but they let this go on for many years....and one can only speculate as to why$
I commend Phil for his commentary…..Job well done!

And...on the anniversary of my 1000th post….I could not have picked a better topic to comment on.... if I’d of tried....

Matt S
November 12th, 2005, 11:22 PM
Tom,

I'm down with most of what you have to say. However, I have one small disagreement. No, I don't think the usual USMS crowd is going to give dopers a free pass in world class swimming; no, I don't believe FINA and the IOC get a free pass in these discussion threads, and I would not agree at all that people who speak up about drugs and the alleged non-serious response to the problem "get hammered" in these threads.

I would agree that those who level scurilous accusations based on no evidence get a hard time for their conspiracy mongering. The non-evidence cited earlier in this thread is a prime example. Put the shoe on the other foot. Do you want Dreyfusian smear jobs, like the latest cheap shot L'Equipe (aka L'Ecrap) leveled at Lance Armstrong, to be considered sufficient evidence of doping?

Matt

cinc3100
November 13th, 2005, 12:01 AM
I don't know if they are up to their old tricks or not. Their a authorian society that likes to be on top. In manufactoring, they have pirated US products and undervalue their currency to make Chinese products cheaper. But that doesn't mean that they will cheat in sports. Remember that the USSR didn't cheat in swimming while the East Germans did. I think it might be possible giving their background but like everyone states you can't prove that the chinese swim federation is doing it on a massive level again.t

breastroker
November 13th, 2005, 07:43 PM
cinc310,
Do you really believe the USSR did not cheat? What planet are you on? Several Russian swimmers won medals using designer doping made for the Russian army. The drug wasn't on the banned list, the Russian cheats kept their medals!

And always remember, in China, using banned drugs can still get you a bullet in the head. All their drug cheating is STATE sponsored and has not and will not go away. They kept their medals from the 1988 and 1992 Olympics, and they will cheat in 2008 again.

Dick Pound is a joke, as is Larfaoui. The only one I respect in this is Phill Whitten, the heads of the main FINA organizations are too political. I exclude Frank, can someone please post that photo of the Chinese womens Olympic team at the USAS convention several years ago, please.:p

cinc3100
November 14th, 2005, 12:23 AM
Well, you are probably right Wayne. It wasn't as obvious in swimming as weightlifting. I think one Russian swimmer was caught. With East Germany it was very obvious.

fireguard
November 14th, 2005, 01:44 AM
And always remember, in China, using banned drugs can still get you a bullet in the head. All their drug cheating is STATE sponsored and has not and will not go away

If that's ture, Chinese is cheating in any sports, not just swimming.

fireguard
November 14th, 2005, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by cinc310
In manufactoring, they have pirated US products and undervalue their currency to make Chinese products cheaper.
That is very not ture. Chinese products are much cheaper because chinese labor is much cheaper. The averaged income per month for a worker in China is still below 100 dollars now! To make a same product, the factory pay much less to the worker in China than in US, that's why the product made in US is much more expensive. Please don't listen to those misleading reports.

Tom Ellison
November 14th, 2005, 07:50 AM
Wayne, your post was a clear light....in a dark subject....
I one zillion (that's a lot) % agree....
Tom

Matt S
November 14th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Wayne, Tom,

You do realize, of course, the circularity of your reasoning?

"They are cheating because they have done it in the past, and as a closed society, they can get away with cheating on a systematic scale and no one blowing the whistle on them."

OK, what's the evidence that they have done so recently?

"There is none, but I know they do it because the people who are supposed to keep them honest are a joke and way too political, and did I mention that they are a closed society?"

OK, but couldn't a lack of evidence also indicate they are honest? If the PRC is cheating with steroids and other drugs throughout their athletic programs, how well have they done recently in the sports that steroids and other substances help the most? Swimming, weightlifting, cycling, extreme endurance events?

Don't get me wrong, you guys could be 100% right. I know the PRC was caught once. And, I made the same arguments myself 20 some years ago about the East Germans (including their "female" swimmers with necks like an Alabama nose tackle).

BUT, assertion is not proof.

Matt

breastroker
November 14th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Matt, Have the Communist Chinese suddenly changed their leadership? NO

Are they an open society? NO

Have they changed their tactics of being horrible in off years and suddenly the winter before the summer Olympics they are world beaters? NO

Did the East German cheats ever stop cheating? No, only after they were unified did they stop.

Have the Communist Chinese stopped drug cheating?

My reply is YES

cinc3100
November 24th, 2005, 10:27 PM
They do pirate US products mainly like CD's and so forth. Arnold went to China to complain about this. And there are even cheaper labor markets than China, Pakistran or Vietnam but they have not invest in the same instructure as China as.

fireguard
November 25th, 2005, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by cinc310
They do pirate US products mainly like CD's and so forth. Arnold went to China to complain about this. And there are even cheaper labor markets than China, Pakistran or Vietnam but they have not invest in the same instructure as China as.

I had thought the cheaper Chinese products you said before were those being sold in US. Obviously you didn't mean those. The problem you mentioned in this post does exist, mainly about the copyright thing.

Frank Thompson
December 20th, 2005, 03:31 PM
There was a story today on Swim Info about the latest swimmer Zhou Jie, who tested positive for a banned substance. http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/10456.asp This was very sad news for the world swimming community because everyone was hoping that suspicions and accusations were subsiding with China being the host of the 2008 Olympic Games. About 2 months ago during the China games and the East Asian championships, there were no negative press releases about the fast times that were coming from these meets from young swimmers that were new to the world scene. Hopefully, we won't see any more of this.

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 21st, 2005, 03:09 PM
Zhou is, I believe, only 15 years old. If I had it, Ibet a billion dollars that she had no idea what she was taking. I bet the coaches gave it to her.