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darekh
August 3rd, 2005, 11:35 AM
This is my first new thread so be gentle:-)!!

I'm curious as the how the new FINA rules will be introduced into USMS. I heard that there was legislation passed that USMS would adopt all FINA/USA Swimming rule changes? I received the following email information from a coaching friend of mine and thought I'd see if anyone was talking about it on the USMS Forums but didn't find anything?

SWIMMING
During the breaststroke start and turns, while the swimmer is wholly
submerged, a single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick
is permitted. The new rule ends decades of controversies (the first one
occurred in Berlin, in 1978, at the World Championships, the latest last
year in Athens, at the Olympics).

The backstroke finish rule has officially been clarified. Now it is legal
for a swimmer to be completely submerged not only during the turn but also
during the last stroke.

Also in backstroke, swimmers are now allowed to start with their feet out
of the water. It is no more mandatory that "The feet, including the toes,
shall be under the surface of the water"

Thoughts???

PS Have tried to find the information concerning these rule changes on both USA Swimming's and FINA's sites but to no avail...

ande
August 3rd, 2005, 11:57 AM
the backstroke rules are good
swimmers will now be able to grip their toes on the edge of the pool which will allow better starts, people will get more height and distance. this could lead to more head bumps in shallow pools for non elite swimmers. I hope masters adopts it. This will decrease the likelyhood of swimmers slipping on the start and people could improve their times by a few 10ths of a second.

i don't think going underwater on backstroke touches or turns will enhance performance, it just makes it easier for judges to judge and harder for swimmers to DQ

on the KICKajima rule,
there's already a long thread about it here
the new breastroke rule is kind of a shocker. when it becomes reality, swimmers will master the technique, take one large powerful downward kick and we should see some improvements in breastroke, especially shortcourse. Cheaters will have to find a new way to cheat, which shouldn't take long.

ande


Originally posted by darekh
This is my first new thread so be gentle:-)!!

I'm curious as the how the new FINA rules will be introduced into USMS. I heard that there was legislation passed that USMS would adopt all FINA/USA Swimming rule changes? I received the following email information from a coaching friend of mine and thought I'd see if anyone was talking about it on the USMS Forums but didn't find anything?

SWIMMING
During the breaststroke start and turns, while the swimmer is wholly
submerged, a single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick
is permitted. The new rule ends decades of controversies (the first one
occurred in Berlin, in 1978, at the World Championships, the latest last
year in Athens, at the Olympics).

The backstroke finish rule has officially been clarified. Now it is legal
for a swimmer to be completely submerged not only during the turn but also
during the last stroke.

Also in backstroke, swimmers are now allowed to start with their feet out
of the water. It is no more mandatory that "The feet, including the toes,
shall be under the surface of the water"

Thoughts???

PS Have tried to find the information concerning these rule changes on both USA Swimming's and FINA's sites but to no avail...

Frank Thompson
August 3rd, 2005, 12:30 PM
I am sure next month in Greensboro, NC at the USAS convention these new rules will be discussed and passed by USA Swimming and USMS. Especially next year since the 2006 FINA Masters World Swimming Championships will be hosted here in the USA. Because these rule changes have just been announced two weeks ago in Montreal, I am sure they are now being discussed by the rules committees of the aquatic organziations that are effected.

I sure you will see discussion of these proposals on the Convention thread. If you go to that section of this website, you will see proposals that were discussed on this website prior to the 2004 convention. We have had discussions on this website in the past two weeks about this on the general discussions thread. When the convention gets closer, I am sure that you will see this being discussed by the delegates attending the convention on the Convenion thread.

valhallan
August 3rd, 2005, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by ande
....the backstroke rules are good
swimmers will now be able to grip their toes on the edge of the pool which will allow better starts, people will get more height and distance.

Do you think these revisions will go into effect right after the next USMS meeting?...or after the first of the year?
I want to practice the *crouching tiger flying launch* right away.

Rob Copeland
August 3rd, 2005, 01:25 PM
Unless I’m mistaken, FINA is only striking “The feet, including the toes, shall be under the surface of the water.” NOT “Standing in or on the gutter or bending the toes over the lip of the gutter is prohibited.”

Swimmers will still not be allowed to grip their toes over the edge of the pool. What we will be able to do is place our feet a little higher up in gutterless pools. We shouldn’t see an increase in launching or head bumping.

USMS adoption of this rule is automatic and takes effect coincident with FINA, unless special actions are taken by the USMS Rules Committee.

valhallan
August 3rd, 2005, 02:01 PM
Thanks for clarifying that Rob...I'll be sure to stay on the lookout for the exact wording.

Here's the current verbage...

www.fina.org/swimrules_6.html

knelson
August 3rd, 2005, 02:15 PM
The wording in the breaststroke rule change is absolutely bizarre as far as I'm concerned. What the heck is a "downward kick?" It seems to me, if you're in a streamlined position, a downward kick is impossible unless you can hyperextend your knees. Isn't a dolphin kick is initiated by bringing your feet up toward the surface of the water? How can this be a "downward kick?" Anyone have any thoughts on this?

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 3rd, 2005, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by knelson
The wording in the breaststroke rule change is absolutely bizarre as far as I'm concerned. What the heck is a "downward kick?" It seems to me, if you're in a streamlined position, a downward kick is impossible unless you can hyperextend your knees. Isn't a dolphin kick is initiated by bringing your feet up toward the surface of the water? How can this be a "downward kick?" Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I agree. How can you do a downard kick if you don't then do an upward kick to get your feet into the right position to begin the first underwater breast kick. I've tried and can't come close.

darekh
August 3rd, 2005, 03:42 PM
First off thanks to all of you for your input, I thought there was a link between FINA rule changes and USMS.

As for the breaststroke question that has come up. Here's the way I see it (and will probably coach it). My belief is that the fly kick comes from the shoulders anyhow, so as the pull passes the shoulders they will make a downward force of the shoulders which puts the legs in the position for a downward kick. As for the upward motion, I believe the reason that wasn't seen in the case of the Japanese swimmer is that his knees break to begin his first breaststroke kick, which makes it look like one motion when it's actually incompassing the upward motion also.

On another note, I understand about the toes on backstroke but how is someone going to judge that in a pool with gutters. It makes sense in an elite competition with the timing pads up on the deck but in a regular pool, if my toes are out of the water, they are going to be on the gutter and I'm going to get one heck of a better start. So, technically if we're not using the gutter then our toes still have to be under water, ugh!!!

Thoughts??

ande
August 3rd, 2005, 04:36 PM
to kick downward
you first have to move your legs upward
so they can go down


Originally posted by knelson
The wording in the breaststroke rule change is absolutely bizarre as far as I'm concerned. What the heck is a "downward kick?" It seems to me, if you're in a streamlined position, a downward kick is impossible unless you can hyperextend your knees. Isn't a dolphin kick is initiated by bringing your feet up toward the surface of the water? How can this be a "downward kick?" Anyone have any thoughts on this?

knelson
August 3rd, 2005, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by ande
to kick downward
you first have to move your legs upward
so they can go down

So what exactly would an upward kick be?

They must have this wording in the rule for some reason, but I can't understand what it is!

Peter Cruise
August 3rd, 2005, 04:41 PM
Ande, was that a new swim faster tip expressed as a haiku?

darekh
August 3rd, 2005, 04:50 PM
I had this link to video of Dave Denison doing under water breast with a dolphin kick (he's the kid that was paralized in a snow board accident this winter). It looks to me like the motion of his body from the pull puts his legs in a position to only do a downward motion (with the break in the knee) on the upward motion there's no break in the knee and his legs seem to just flow into that upward postion following the upper body movement. Just thought I'd pass this on, I know it's not a full pull down but the first motion and first kick is the same, I think??

http://www.goswim.tv/vids/DaveFlow.wmv

gull
August 3rd, 2005, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
Ande, was that a new swim faster tip expressed as a haiku?

Traditionally haiku has a 5-7-5 syllable pattern.

Peter Cruise
August 3rd, 2005, 05:08 PM
Yes Craig, but we must make allowances for both hypoxia & humour...

knelson
August 3rd, 2005, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by darekh
It looks to me like the motion of his body from the pull puts his legs in a position to only do a downward motion (with the break in the knee) on the upward motion there's no break in the knee and his legs seem to just flow into that upward postion following the upper body movement.

Yeah, I still don't get it, but watching this video sure makes me understand why my breaststroke sucks. It's amazing the amount of flexibility and undulation he gets in these drills. I would look like a total plank in comparison to Dave.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 4th, 2005, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by darekh
First off thanks to all of you for your input, I thought there was a link between FINA rule changes and USMS.

As for the breaststroke question that has come up. Here's the way I see it (and will probably coach it). My belief is that the fly kick comes from the shoulders anyhow, so as the pull passes the shoulders they will make a downward force of the shoulders which puts the legs in the position for a downward kick. As for the upward motion, I believe the reason that wasn't seen in the case of the Japanese swimmer is that his knees break to begin his first breaststroke kick, which makes it look like one motion when it's actually incompassing the upward motion also.

On another note, I understand about the toes on backstroke but how is someone going to judge that in a pool with gutters. It makes sense in an elite competition with the timing pads up on the deck but in a regular pool, if my toes are out of the water, they are going to be on the gutter and I'm going to get one heck of a better start. So, technically if we're not using the gutter then our toes still have to be under water, ugh!!!

Thoughts??

But doesn't the first downward kick have to be the start of the stroke. therefore, you'd have to either do your start or push, then go directly into a downward kick, do one arm pull and then a breast kick. However, when & how do you get your legs up into position ot do the breast kick without lifting your legs up which would generate soem power. And all of this has to be done in how many yard/meters so that you don't get disqualified for staying underwater for too long.

This is going to be somewthing, I think, that elite swimmers will do but not many masters.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 4th, 2005, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by darekh
I had this link to video of Dave Denison doing under water breast with a dolphin kick (he's the kid that was paralized in a snow board accident this winter). It looks to me like the motion of his body from the pull puts his legs in a position to only do a downward motion (with the break in the knee) on the upward motion there's no break in the knee and his legs seem to just flow into that upward postion following the upper body movement. Just thought I'd pass this on, I know it's not a full pull down but the first motion and first kick is the same, I think??

http://www.goswim.tv/vids/DaveFlow.wmv

I think watching this video proves my point. After the pushoff, you must do one downward butterfly kick, then do your stroke but leave your legs somewhat hanging. Then bring you hips forward and bend your knees. But after and during the stroke your entire legs woudl be creating so much drag that you would, I think almost stop. The video is a drill, it doesn't really translate the rule precisely becasue there are too many strokes.

Allen Stark
August 4th, 2005, 11:57 AM
We have to wait for the official wording of the rule. The intent was to legalize the dolphin movement DURING the pull down because it was (supposedly) so hard for judges to tell if one was being done .The wording from the news release is confusing,but hopefully the formal rule won't be.

darekh
August 4th, 2005, 12:09 PM
Good Stuff,

This discussion is really getting me to look at the breaststroke more than anything else. I actually found this other trailer for Dave's start and turn video and it seems that the swimmers are a bit inverted which allows for the downward kick. As for the upward motion (and the comment on drag) I think that would be part of the beginning of the first breast kick, as you raise the feet and break the knees the upward motion would be what would be the upward motion of the fly kick. I'm actually really excited about going to practice tonight and trying it out (I have to find something to get excited about during practice, right!!).

Anyhow here's the other video clip. I'll let you know how my trials go tomorrow.

http://swimming.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=swimming&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goswim.tv