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Jazz Hands
August 12th, 2005, 11:47 PM
Long-time lurker, first-time poster. I've been watching the videos (http://www.swim.ee/videos/Montreal2005/index_finals.html) of the Montreal World Championships from swim.ee, a great web site. At the start of the second semi-final of the men's 50 freestyle, I saw something quite shocking. In the first underwater shot, right after the dive, Salim Iles is very clearly doing a two-beat crossover kick. It's an eye-catching technique at sprint speed, because he appears to be "squirming" through the water. Look at it yourself. Slow motion will help you see it better. Also watch the segment at 1:16 in, where Iles is in the background, still on the shoulder of Roland Schoeman, still using a classic non-overt kicking style. His time for the race was 22.14, a personal best.

What do we make of this? Could Iles go faster with a six-beat kick? Should we slower swimmers, especially those with inflexible ankles and/or small feet, consider this style of sprinting?

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 15th, 2005, 11:10 AM
I also love to watch the videos on Swim.ee. It is a great site. Which of the vidoes are you talking about. I was just watching the first Phelps. I think that the entire thing about hip rotation is very over blown. I think that it looks like he is using his shoulders far more than his hips. When I was taught to swim. I was taught to keep my hips flat & use my shoulders. This creates a tension in the body that seems to help propel my body past my hand which is planted after the catch. I would like very much any comments. It seems to me that Phelps does this also, although mush better & with more action and speed produced.

Jazz Hands
August 15th, 2005, 11:58 AM
On the page I linked to, under the "Freestyle" heading, the third video ("Men 50m SF II") has the clearest shots of Salim Iles. After the swimmers dive in, you can see him under water on the left. I think that Iles' squirming is the same torso tension that you see in Michael Phelps.

So I think that you are on to something important by twisting your torso to pivot your body past your arm. Another good website where you can see this technique is swimfastest.net, (http://swimfastest.net) which unfortunately has bandwidth restrictions and often goes down near the end of each month. In the butterfly videos the swimmers arch their backs as they catch the water. That seems like a two-armed version of what you are talking about. It's like a wind-up for a strong pull.

scyfreestyler
August 15th, 2005, 02:44 PM
Is the server at swim.ee slower than the second coming of Christ or do I have computer problems? I have 3 meg DSL but I am only downloading at about 56K speed. What gives?

Jeff Commings
August 15th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Sweden's Anders Holmertz always swam his 100 and 200 frees with a two-beat kick. But I think he was mostly a 200-400 guy.

It's amazing that he got away with a two-beat kick in the 50. But it works for him. It's not to say that it would work for everyone ... like breathing every stroke in butterfly.

And yes, the download is slow. I could swim to Montreal in the time it's taking to play.

jswim
August 15th, 2005, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by 330man
Is the server at swim.ee slower than the second coming of Christ or do I have computer problems? I have 3 meg DSL but I am only downloading at about 56K speed. What gives?

don't know.. it's not just you though, I have serious issues trying to watch the videos there. I've actually given up on them at this point.. I don't know if it's my computer, or if I get on during high traffic times? Either way, I feel your pain!

valhallan
August 15th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by 330man
Is the server at swim.ee slower than the second coming of Christ or do I have computer problems? :) That's very funny.

Best way to view them is to 'save as' onto your Desktop or Documents. Then you can place them in a folder for future viewing even if you're off-line.

The downlod still takes several minutes...but you can then play them with uninterrupted streamlining after the're saved.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 15th, 2005, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by valhallan
:) That's very funny.

Best way to view them is to 'save as' onto your Desktop or Documents. Then you can place them in a folder for future viewing even if you're off-line.

The downlod still takes several minutes...but you can then play them with uninterrupted streamlining after the're saved.

Valhallan is right download the videos through save as or soem times you can, if your computer has the software, directly put them onto a DVD. It does take for ever to download them. I've often wondered if it is because they are from, I think, Lithuania. The site used to be part of the official site for the sports college when Lithuania was still part of the USSR. It is one of the oldest sites of its kind. I was once told that originally it was used for sports medicaine/kinesiology students to study while they were doing grad work at the university inLithuania.

It is areally great site. I have no idea how it is funded now.

Jazz Hands, is it part of the World 2005 videos or in another section. I've watched most of the freestyle videos inthe regular part.

Also, Twisting my upper torso and keeping my hips flat is very un-TI. Most TI swimming would tar & feather me. I just know that when I was first really coached, the coach always said to think of catapolting(sp) your body over your hands. That can only be done if you have a big shoulder twist. Oddly, when he was a younger man he won the Big 10 pole vaulting.

Jeff Commings
August 15th, 2005, 06:17 PM
Finally! Finally got to watch two races.

One, the 50 free with Salim Iles. I didn't know he had a two-beat kick. I watched his swimming in Athens, and his kick didn't seem out of the ordinary. Maybe he changed it to give his upper body more energy to use.

Two, the 100 breast final. I've given myself a couple of minutes to calm down so I can type this without being too upset. Kitajima used the dolphin kick again. Twice. It's not footfall, as you might think. They give us underwater footage of the start live, then replay the 50 turn. It's obvious. as comparison, look at Hansen's feet at the start and you'll get a better idea of what could be judged as footfall.

I'm upset, but not so much because Hansen still beat him. The next time they meet, the kick will be legal. I bet Brendan's practicing it now.

I will, however, say that I have been working on the dolphin kick on the pullout and notice that it's advantage is in your first stroke. The dolphin kicks helps maintain your speed a little bit longer on the pullout, and if you don't make your glide longer, you can use that speed into your first stroke, which will be more powerful and can translate to less translation frompullout to swimming.

Also, I noticed that Hansen and Kitajima's hand recovery on their pullouts are not what I would consider to be good. They create so much drag by recovering outside of their midline that I can't believe they're so fast. Also, Brendan takes his head out of the neutral position on his pullouts, which is more drag.

Small things that, if fixed, I'm sure could get Brendan down to 58.9.

Sorry to get this thread off-topic. I'll go now.

Jazz Hands
August 15th, 2005, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
Jazz Hands, is it part of the World 2005 videos or in another section. I've watched most of the freestyle videos inthe regular part.

Also, Twisting my upper torso and keeping my hips flat is very un-TI. Most TI swimming would tar & feather me. I just know that when I was first really coached, the coach always said to think of catapolting(sp) your body over your hands. That can only be done if you have a big shoulder twist. Oddly, when he was a younger man he won the Big 10 pole vaulting.

The video is in the World 2005 section.

I think the twisting motion lines up fairly well with TI's main principles. Terry Laughlin wants his students to learn the feeling of anchoring their hands in the water. In my experience, this feeling is stronger with the winding-up arch motion. Without a strong pivoting motion, it feels like my arms are slipping. And hip rotation still occurs. The faster the race, the less the hips rotate. I presume that's because a higher stroking/twisting force limits hip rotation.