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Damage Inc
August 15th, 2005, 03:39 PM
As a card carring USMS swimmer for the past 4 years I am proud to say that I also carry the card for USATriathlon. :D
I have swam my entire life and I need to do something more than back and forth; up and down the lane. I find swim meets to be extremly boring and a good waste of a taper.
Triathlons, well, they Rock!
Anyone else out there want to stand up with me? Or am I to be forever banned from this site, never to return again untill my tires go flat and both my knees are surgically altered.
Barry

TheGoodSmith
August 15th, 2005, 04:27 PM
There are no triathletes here.

:-)

John Smith

TheGoodSmith
August 15th, 2005, 04:30 PM
You are alone and surrounded.

You have until this evening to surrendor.



John Smith

F'ueco
August 15th, 2005, 04:31 PM
I'll stand up.

I just registered for my first triathlon this morning. So on October 2, I will become a tri-geek. The race is the Santa Cruz Sentinel Triathlon.

69gscal
August 15th, 2005, 04:32 PM
I don't understand all of the triathlon bashing that takes place on here. I know a lot (if not all) is in good humor, but sometimes I have a hard time reading between the lines on the subject.

I've never ran a traithlon and don't plan to. But I do have a tremendous amount of respect for those that participate in such events.

I've also swam with a few tri's and they were very enjoyable people to be around.

aquageek
August 15th, 2005, 04:41 PM
You can't claim to be a triathlete until you've bought every gizmo available, including the silly fanny belt that holds 26 - 2 ounce plastic bottles of water.

But, in all honesty, send your USMS card back.

Damage Inc
August 15th, 2005, 05:10 PM
The Sharks are a swimin.
I have clip-on aero bars, a heart rate monitor, tri specific bike shoes, tri top, tri biking shorts, Aqua Sphere goggles. and A WET SUIT.
Ill keep my card so Ill see you at Stanford in 06.

TheGoodSmith
August 15th, 2005, 05:14 PM
Remember who he is. His name is Barry.

We'll find him eventually.



John Smith

scyfreestyler
August 15th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Remember who he is. His name is Barry.

We'll find him eventually.



John Smith Who knows, you might find him on the podium for a top three 1500M finish.

aquageek
August 15th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
tri top

Why do tri males always need bras to swim slow?

jswim
August 15th, 2005, 06:02 PM
So do you incorporate this sort of training for your tri's? If so, I may know some swimmers who would be interested in
"helping out"
;)

<http://cmac.smugmug.com/gallery/739>

click on the upper left hand pic with the guy holding the sign and hit play.

scyfreestyler
August 15th, 2005, 06:06 PM
That was a pretty funny commercial!!

Damage Inc
August 15th, 2005, 06:48 PM
love the video.

Damage Inc
August 15th, 2005, 06:52 PM
The tri top keeps my nipples from chaffing under my wonderfully fast and boyent wet suit.

F'ueco
August 15th, 2005, 07:04 PM
Wetsuits are cheating!

And they should be illegal in triathlons as well. Why not allow drafting in the cycling leg if wetsuits are allowed for the swim? How about some consistancy!

I will never buy a wetsuit, nor will I ever buy tri specific shoes or jersey. The fanny packs and tri belts will stay on the shelf. And I hate clip on aero bars. I intend to "crush" the competition without the techno gadgets.

Damage Inc
August 15th, 2005, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by F'ueco
Wetsuits are cheating!

Since when is following the rules set forth by a race director cheating?
Is it cheating when a swim only event also has a wetsuit division?
When I swam Alcatraz Sharkfest last month without a wet suit I didnt accuse the other 900 participants of cheating because they wore a wet suit.
Sounds like you need to realize that Triathlons are not swimming events, and that they have their own rules.

And I like my clip ons because they make me LOOK fast.

F'ueco
August 15th, 2005, 11:42 PM
I don't mean to suggest that it is against the rules. I'm suggesting that wearing a wetsuit is a time-saving device, much the same as drafting would be in the cycling leg. In fact, I would argue that the average person will save far more time wearing a wetsuit than they would by drafting off of a faster cyclist.

And if you're going to have ridiculous rules, why not also ban drafting in the swim portion of the race?

In the Sharkfest, weren't you in a separate category from the wetsuited swimmers?

Conniekat8
August 16th, 2005, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
Ill keep my card so Ill see you at Stanford in 06.

I don't think there will be a wet-suit category at Stanford.

PeirsolFan
August 16th, 2005, 05:41 AM
In all honesty, I don't bash tri's but I also don't understand why swimming almost always seems to be their weakest event.

dorothyrde
August 16th, 2005, 06:43 AM
Because you don't NEED to be a good swimmer at a tri. It goes to the best runners and bikers, and if you don't work the bike leg, you are dead on the run. The swim leg is always short in relation with the bike and run.

gull
August 16th, 2005, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
As a card carring USMS swimmer for the past 4 years I am proud to say that I also carry the card for USATriathlon. :D
I have swam my entire life and I need to do something more than back and forth; up and down the lane. I find swim meets to be extremly boring and a good waste of a taper.

Triathlons, well, they Rock!

Hmmmm.......Powerful the Dark Side is.

Kevin in MD
August 16th, 2005, 09:29 AM
I am a full blown all out tri geek. USAT certified triathlon coach. I don't have the fuel belt yet. 2 bikes, aero bars, tri shorts, heart rate monitor, wetsuit, you name it, I got it.

Although i may be giving triathletes a bad (good) name. I swim all the sets as indicated, don't complain, swim other strokes, do kick sets, know how to do a flip turn. But I am prepared to stop doing those things and go back to all freestyle with no flip turns since it is expected of me.

fatboy
August 16th, 2005, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by gull80
Hmmmm.......Powerful the Dark Side is.

There is no tri, only swim or not swim.....

aquageek
August 16th, 2005, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
I am a full blown all out tri geek. USAT certified triathlon coach. I don't have the fuel belt yet. 2 bikes, aero bars, tri shorts, heart rate monitor, wetsuit, you name it, I got it.


OK, serious question here. I've noticed that with the triathletes that's its all about the gear and the look, not so much the training. Swimmers, conversely, seem to have a penchant for wearing just about the rattiest, semi obscene suit they can dig out of the bottom of their moldy gym bag. With swimming there is no posing as all the gear won't make you a better swimmer, only swimming will. Can a tri geek (not sure what that means) explain this please?

mattson
August 16th, 2005, 10:17 AM
I dunno, there have been a number of posts on what is the fastest pool, how much fast skins help, whether or not to use fins, etc. I'd say some of our technique discussions fall into this category as well. ("Do I have my hand enter at 42 degrees, or 43.4 degrees?")

I don't think it is about triathlon versus swimming, as much as training versus looking for a short-cut. The serious tri-athletes are as "professional" as the competitive master's swimmers.

F'ueco
August 16th, 2005, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
OK, serious question here. I've noticed that with the triathletes that's its all about the gear and the look, not so much the training. Swimmers, conversely, seem to have a penchant for wearing just about the rattiest, semi obscene suit they can dig out of the bottom of their moldy gym bag. With swimming there is no posing as all the gear won't make you a better swimmer, only swimming will. Can a tri geek (not sure what that means) explain this please?

Here's my opinion on that one:

It's impossible to make a Speedo look better than any other Speedo, so most swimmers don't even bother. And the full-body suits that elite swimmers are wearing these days look ugly regardless of who they are on.

I almost think that on aesthetics alone, FINA should ban those ugly suits...

Meanwhile, serious tri-geeks tend to be somewhat better off financially. They can afford to buy all the top end gear, and can be obsessive about looks.

tuck
August 16th, 2005, 12:06 PM
I hear you there ! Go to any transition area and all you see are thousands and thousands of dollars in bikes. Me and my older, but well cared for, Schwin just don't compete and all the training in the world won't change that. I'm seriously thinking about not doing another and sticking to open water events in the summer. Although if I can find another wheel set cheap I might tri again.

Damage Inc
August 16th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
I am a full blown all out tri geek. USAT certified triathlon coach.
Thanks for standing with me Kevin, and supporting your desire to push your athletic abilities past the single sport of swimming.

I am not anti swimming, I love swimming and support USMS when I post on Triathlon web sites. But I want to push myself even further. Which is what triathlon is all about. The fancy expensive gagets are only that, they don't substitute for pure time and sweat in the saddle or on the trail.

And yes, Ill see you at Worlds 06 without a wet suit, in both the pool and OW events. Because thats how I like to race.

scyfreestyler
August 16th, 2005, 12:23 PM
How is a wetsuit cheating but a FSII bodysuit is not?

aquageek
August 16th, 2005, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
But I want to push myself even further. Which is what triathlon is all about.

This is complete nonsense. Just because you choose to train in three sports and give less attention to each does not mean you push yourself any more than a person who chooses to train hard in a single sport. Further, because you have chosen to participate in three sports, you can't devote the time or energy to excelling in any single one.

conradical
August 16th, 2005, 12:49 PM
I'm not a triathlete, but I will stand up for them. I too have a lot of respect for what they do. I've read all the posts claiming that the bashing is all in good fun, but I have had trouble reading between the lines as well.

I practice alone, but this summer I've had the opportunity to watch both the "try-athletes" group and the (separate) masters swimmers group at practice. My observation is that the tri-swimmers start earlier, swim harder, and spend less time yackity-yacking at the end of the lanes. In short: they seem to take what they do much more seriously. What a shame that USMS can't make these folks feel welcome, and possibly boost its membership. (And regardless of your membership status, if you post here [especially on a regular basis] you represent USMS in your own way.)

Within the past year I've gotten involved with my LMSC at the administrative level. I've been approached more than once with the question: How can we make our organization grow? I think the best solution to that problem is to make the group appear as friendly as possible to anyone at any level of participation.

I came to USMS because I was already swimming, lead a rather solitary existence, and wanted to meet likeminded folks. I was especially hopeful of finding folks like myself (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4749#post42288). After almost 5yrs in USMS I'm on the brink of giving up on it. Honestly, I was having more fun with swimming before I got involved with USMS.

Despite all the claims of acceptance made by USMS and the powers that be, I find the prevalent attitude to be rather exclusive, which no doubt has a tendency to push away "regular folks". I have seen the same thing happen to the sport of Sailboarding. If USMS wants to shoot itself in the foot then so be it, just don't expect me to hang around to watch, I got better things to do.

USMS and other forms of competitive swimming will no doubt always have at least a small cult of followers, but it has the potential to be so much more. It just seems such a shame to see it go so under utilized.

scyfreestyler
August 16th, 2005, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by conradical
I'm not a triathlete, but I will stand up for them. I too have a lot of respect for what they do. I've read all the posts claiming that the bashing is all in good fun, but I have had trouble reading between the lines as well.

I practice alone, but this summer I've had the opportunity to watch both the "try-athletes" group and the (separate) masters swimmers group at practice. My observation is that the tri-swimmers start earlier, swim harder, and spend less time yackity-yacking at the end of the lanes. In short: they seem to take what they do much more seriously. What a shame that USMS can't make these folks feel welcome, and possibly boost its membership. (And regardless of your membership status, if you post here [especially on a regular basis] you represent USMS in your own way.)

Within the past year I've gotten involved with my LMSC at the administrative level. I've been approached more than once with the question: How can we make our organization grow? I think the best solution to that problem is to make the group appear as friendly as possible to anyone at any level of participation.

I came to USMS because I was already swimming, lead a rather solitary existence, and wanted to meet likeminded folks. I was especially hopeful of finding folks like myself (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4749#post42288). After almost 5yrs in USMS I'm on the brink of giving up on it. Honestly, I was having more fun with swimming before I got involved with USMS.

Despite all the claims of acceptance made by USMS and the powers that be, I find the prevalent attitude to be rather exclusive, which no doubt has a tendency to push away "regular folks". I have seen the same thing happen to the sport of Sailboarding. If USMS wants to shoot itself in the foot then so be it, just don't expect me to hang around to watch, I got better things to do.

USMS and other forms of competitive swimming will no doubt always have at least a small cult of followers, but it has the potential to be so much more. It just seems such a shame to see it go so under utilized. Great post. I share many of the same sentiments.

jswim
August 16th, 2005, 01:06 PM
Conrad, I agree with you that USMS does have potential to grow and do great things with new folks, however, I feel you are judging USMS on only your personal experience (of course who can do anything else right?)

My point is, not all USMS clubs operate or have the same issues as yours does. Some people see a different side of swimming and trier's in other clubs. No one club is the same or sees the same things. I have joined two different clubs in USMS one was a serious club in St. Petersburg FL, there was a large contingent, and tri-athletes included. Everyone worked hard and got along fine. I was only beginning and learned quite a bit. I never felt as if i were being excluded and didn't see anything but encouragement from others towards both myself, and the tri-athletes.

The club I am currently participating in has about 4 regular participants. We have a good time and some days work harder than others. Our coach is great and has helped everyone thus far. We have a couple of tri-athletes join with us on some days, and one has even inspired one of the swimmers to possibly try a tri.. heh heh..

Anyway, I am sorry your experience with USMS has not been very good, but please don't assume that all clubs are the same, because in my limited experience they have been wonderful, and I am one of those "regular folks". Not a great swimmer, but getting better thanks to the club and this forum.

Leonard Jansen
August 16th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Are cats smarter than dogs? In fact, cats are positively brilliant - at being cats. However, things like "seeing eye cats" are NOT a good idea. Dogs are brilliant at being dogs, but not at being cats - you don't want to try to have Fido walk on a 1/2" wide fence. Cats are specialists and dogs are generalists.

Same way with triathlon and swimming. Swimming is a single-focus discipline (cats) and triathlon is a multi-focus discipline (dogs) and they both are equally valid. In the same way, I wouldn't say that a decathlete (in Track & Field) was a lousy athlete because they can't run the 400 as fast as the specialists.

Part of it is also pure sport Darwinism: most swimmers think the idea of lots of "toys" is silly - of course you do or you would have gravitated towards a sport with lots of toys. Conversely, tri-types have no real problem with wetsuits, bikes, etc - if they did, they'd do something else.

It's all good.

-LBJ

P.S. It's all good, except wetsuits - these are tools of Satan and people that use them probably don't brush their teeth either. ;)

aquageek
August 16th, 2005, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by conradical
USMS and other forms of competitive swimming will no doubt always have at least a small cult of followers, but it has the potential to be so much more. It just seems such a shame to see it go so under utilized.

I swim on a team that started with 4 swimmers 18 months ago. We now have 25-30 at practice and all have joined USMS and many (40-50%) have participated in their first USMS meet in the past 1.5 years. I have had the opportunity to swim with many teams, both USMS and ad-hoc teams, and your experiences are much different than mine.

We also have a few folks who have moved to Charlotte from other areas with USMS teams and all have stated how inclusive their former clubs were.

42K members is not a small cult, a medium one maybe.

Kerry
August 16th, 2005, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
This is complete nonsense. Just because you choose to train in three sports and give less attention to each does not mean you push yourself any more than a person who chooses to train hard in a single sport. Further, because you have chosen to participate in three sports, you can't devote the time or energy to excelling in any single one.

I would agree that triathletes don't push themselves "any more" than a person who trains in a single sport, but I haven't seen any triathletes insinuating that they are, either. It's sort of unfair to compare swimming and triathlon and say that triathletes don't excel in a "single sport" - isn't triathlon, taken as a whole, considered a sport?

I would imagine that the "pushing yourself" part comes in doing three sports sequentially. Sure, you don't have to "excel" in all three, but you have to excel in endurance (to make it through all three for a long period of time), in coordination (to make it through the transition areas quickly), and I'd guess you have to excel in at least one of the sports to win, because I imagine a triathlete that doesn't have at least one "strong" sport would have a hard time making up time lost in the sports in which he or she is less strong.

I'm not a triathlete, although I enjoy swimming and biking, but separately. The "hostility" here, whether real or joking, about triathlon baffles me. The master's group that I swim with has a bunch of triathletes and they are all really nice people, they do the same workouts with everyone else, and I really don't see a difference between them and the non-triathlete swimmers in terms of workout behavior, commitment, or athleticism.

Damage Inc
August 16th, 2005, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
This is complete nonsense.
Please do not call my training and dedication to improving myself complete nonsense. Its not.
If you were to know me and know that my swimming has actually improved over the last year as I have stepped up my triathlon training you might not be so narrow minded in your thoughts towards triathletes.
My dedication to swimming has remained constant and I continue to improve. But I need more than just up and back, lap after lap to stoke my competitive fire.
This thread was ment to amuse those who want to stand up for triathelets who also happen to be upstanding menbers of USMS. If your goal is to give us a bad name, please go back to that other thread and trash us all you want about how we need to diversify our stroke work and do flip turns.

aquageek
August 16th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Loosen the heart rate monitor, please! Take a gulp of V02Max and relax.

I didn't say anything about your training routine or your desire to improve yourself.

Conniekat8
August 16th, 2005, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
Because you don't NEED to be a good swimmer at a tri.

Well, that's a big part of why they get razzed by the good swimmers.
Swimming is one of the hardest sports to get really good at.

I always thought that the point of tri was to excel at all three, not to shine over the hardest one and just get by, and view it as a necessary evil. I donít think viewing swimming as a necessary evil of the triathlons was really the original idea of triathlons.

Also, if many of them out as much work in swimming as they put in biking or running, they'd be lot better swimmers.

I think the perceived bashing doesnít really go towards the triathletes whom give proper attention to all three sports, it's the wannabee's that want to get good without a lot of effort, and those who tend to claim that a good swim isn't that important to be a good triathlete that get the razzing.

Heck, I'm sure I'd get razzed a lot by runners if I bought the most expensive tennis shoes out there got a new running outfit and wanted to get good at running with a 2 mile run twice a week.

Or if I bought an expensive bike, and wanted to get good at biking on 50 flat miles a week and acted like I know everything, or acted like their sport isn't all that important and that I don't DO hills. Heck, I'd EXPECT to get a third degree from those who give it proper attention.

Conniekat8
August 16th, 2005, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
Although i may be giving triathletes a bad (good) name. I swim all the sets as indicated, don't complain, swim other strokes, do kick sets, know how to do a flip turn. But I am prepared to stop doing those things and go back to all freestyle with no flip turns since it is expected of me.

Well geesh, acting like that, noone probably knows you're a triathlete, they probably think you're just a hard working swimmer ;) :p

Kevin in MD
August 16th, 2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Conniekat8
Well geesh, acting like that, noone probably knows you're a triathlete, they probably think you're just a hard working swimmer ;) :p

I think I'll go ahead and drop the flip turns then.

Yardbird
August 16th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Same way with triathlon and swimming. Swimming is a single-focus discipline (cats) and triathlon is a multi-focus discipline (dogs)

Good analogy, since they're already fighting like cats and dogs!!

Conniekat8
August 16th, 2005, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
I think I'll go ahead and drop the flip turns then.

About time!
And don't make me catch you doing the other three strokes, they're useless! ;)

Rob Copeland
August 17th, 2005, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
Because you don't NEED to be a good swimmer at a triÖ

Heck, you donít need to be a good swimmer to be in USMS.


Originally posted by Kerry
I would agree that triathletes don't push themselves "any more" than a person who trains in a single sport, but I haven't seen any triathletes insinuating that they are, either.

It all depends on the goals of the individuals. Many of the triathletes that I train with Do push themselves a lot harder than I do. A typical training SaturdayÖ for me get up around 10:00am, putter around the house doing stuff and checkout the USMS discussion forum, head out to the lake and meet up for a 60 to 90 minute swim with my triathlon training partners, kick their butts in the swim and go home for a napÖ for the triís get up around 5:30am go for a 60 to 100 mile ride, then into an 8 to 15 mile run, then home for a quick meal before heading out to the lake to get their butts kicked by a well rested swimmer.

Albeit, some of these are world class Olympic and Ironman distance athletes, so they have loftier training goals than I.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 17th, 2005, 11:15 AM
i believe that wetsuits can only be used if the water is below a very cold temperature.

Paul Smith
August 17th, 2005, 11:20 AM
I think we continue to forget the primary target of all the razzing in these two threads; the poser!

Although all 3 individual sports have there fair share of posers, it just seems that there are far more in the "tri world". Dedicated, hard working people in all four sports (swim, run, bike, tri) are to be given lots of credit.

The ones who participate mainly as an attempt to be cool are usually the ones buying all the gear they don't need, skimp on training, get the tattoo and come in the bottom 10% of races..........these are the ones who are fair targets!

One last comment, with the exception being the upper 10% of finishers the vast majority of triathletes main goal in the swim leg is to come out of the water witout having spent to much effort, they know the race is usually won on the bike leg.

The day that all 3 legs of the race are set with distances that are comparable (90 minute swim, 90 minute ride, 90 minute run) is the day th tri's start getting the swimmers full respect!

aquageek
August 17th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
i believe that wetsuits can only be used if the water is below a very cold temperature.

Recent race I was in allowed wetsuits up to the freezing cold temperature of 76 degrees. The water was 75 and not a single swimmer wore a suit yet all the tris were fully donned (and most finished well behind the swimmers). There's the posing crowd.

In another race last year there were not wetsuit standards and some dude wore his in 87 degree water as part of his "triathlon training." He stopped halfway through the event.

bitwiz
August 17th, 2005, 11:53 AM
It's because triathletes use wetsuits to help keep their hips from sinking and to swim faster. It's like swimming with flippers.

aquageek
August 17th, 2005, 12:07 PM
Someone once told me that wetsuits provide the biggest benefit to average swimmers and minimal benefit to either good or poor swimmers. Is this true?

Rob Copeland
August 17th, 2005, 12:21 PM
Absolutely TRUE!

The wetsuit corrects body position flaws in poor swimmers (itís hard to drag you butt a foot below the water if youíre floating like a cork), while most good swimmers are already in a good position without the wetsuit.

Additionally the wetsuit acts like a pull buoy, so the poor swimmer with a bad kick can just drag their feet.

Damage Inc
August 17th, 2005, 01:56 PM
In triathlons I believe the wetsuit benifits 2 people the most, the poor/average swimmer and the race director.

For the average swimmer, the WS lifts the body into a good streamlined position, thus improing stroke dynamics. For the poor swimmer it also acts as a mental and actual life preserver. Many of these people are terrified of swimming in the open water and would never do so without a WS. Long ago as the sport was getting started, Race directors realized that if they wanted to fill slots, and get paid the $100 entry fee, they needed to alow WS. I would imagine that the average event would loose 50% or more of its participants (thus $$$) if they didnt allow WS. This in effect has led to the growing and thriving sport of triathlons. Despite what we think as diehard swimmers, the WS has been good for the sport of Triathlons, and it will never go away.

Damage Inc
August 17th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Recent race I was in allowed wetsuits up to the freezing cold temperature of 76 degrees. The water was 75 and not a single swimmer wore a suit yet all the tris were fully donned (and most finished well behind the swimmers). There's the posing crowd.
Was this a swimming or triathlon event? Was there a WS Division?
Either way, I bet the race director was happy that he had participants in WSs that may not have raced without a WS. I wouldn't call them posers, I would say thanks for coming out and encourage them to come back next year and give it a tri without the WS.

justforfun
August 17th, 2005, 02:12 PM
I think that what Damage says about wet suits and triathlon is probably very true and is very insightful. It just frustrates me that wetsuits are no longer used for their original purpose: to protect the swimmer from hypothermia. Instead they're used as a flotation device. The current cutoff for use of WS at USAT sanctioned events is 78 degrees. 78 degrees is optimal racing temperature without a WS! They should lower it to at least 70.

Guvnah
August 17th, 2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland
Heck, you donít need to be a good swimmer to be in USMS.

I think this is the most profound statement in the two large "triathlon" threads currently active.

We keep telling new people who show up here "Don't be afraid. No matter what your capabilities, the Masters Meets are for you!"

And then we get all uppity and trash triathletes because they're not "good swimmers" and don't do all the strokes, etc. (Yes, I know some of it is in jest. But some is not. And after a while, even good-natured trash talk gets old. To me, at least.)

And at the same time we lament the decline in swimming across the country.

In fact, we're all on the same side, and all in the same pool, and are all contributing to the sport.

We ought to be rejoicing over anyone's desire to improve his/her physical fitness and capabilities, in whatever what they can, and in whatever way they choose. And if that includes some work in the pool, all the more reason for rejoicing.

aquageek
August 17th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
Was this a swimming or triathlon event? Was there a WS Division?
Either way, I bet the race director was happy that he had participants in WSs that may not have raced without a WS. I wouldn't call them posers, I would say thanks for coming out and encourage them to come back next year and give it a tri without the WS.

It was a swim competition and there was no WS Division. If the water is 75 what reason does anyone have for needing a WS? It's a crutch. And, I'm not walking up to a bunch of buffed up tris and telling them to swim without a wetsuit, they might have tied me to their hydration holsters and towed me around on one of their 50 milers.

valhallan
August 17th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
It was a swim competition and there was no WS Division. If the water is 75 what reason does anyone have for needing a WS?

They keep the jellyfish tentacles from stinging you.

And they look a whole lot better than the man bras.

Damage Inc
August 17th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
With swimming there is no posing as all the gear won't make you a better swimmer, only swimming will. Can a tri geek (not sure what that means) explain this please?

No Posing?
OK, so I went to a Regional Swim Meet the other day and I see about a dozon overweight, hairy guys squeeze into these long john (not sure what they are called) swimsuits. One even asked me to help zip him up while we were in the locker room. In the Expo Area I saw the price, are you kidding me! Then the sales guy says he has very few left because he sells them all due to their short life span.
Are these things legal? Do they aid the swimmers speed? Are they an unfair advantage over the rest of us?
But a guess since Speedo is a major sponsor of everything swimming, there is no way these things will be illegal.

justforfun
August 17th, 2005, 04:05 PM
I say Death to wetsuits AND body suits/Fastskins! Let everyone compete on an equal footing. All natural is the only way to go (and it's cheap, too).

gull
August 17th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
No Posing?
OK, so I went to a Regional Swim Meet the other day and I see about a dozon overweight, hairy guys squeeze into these long john (not sure what they are called) swimsuits.

Touche! They're called Fastskins, and they work so well you don't even have to train to go fast. But seriously, they are legal, and I have to admit that I own two legskins (I bought the second one on sale--$50-- after the first one wore out).

F'ueco
August 17th, 2005, 04:28 PM
What's wrong with the good old days when we shaved our legs to go faster?

aquageek
August 17th, 2005, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
No Posing?
OK, so I went to a Regional Swim Meet the other day and I see about a dozon overweight, hairy guys squeeze into these long john (not sure what they are called) swimsuits.

Next time you go scuba diving in cold water (and note cold is not defined as 76, that apparent temperature that tris are incapable of swimming unassisted) wear a fastskin. You might just notice a difference between that and a wetsuit.

I've seen gull80 in his performance enhancing fastskin. I'm fairly certain hard work is the key to his success.

Damage Inc
August 17th, 2005, 04:50 PM
No thanks, I dont want to pose in a long john.
Besides, Tiburon does not allow those things and Sharkfest doesnt have a LJ division. Ill stay with my $25 racer.

aquageek
August 17th, 2005, 05:09 PM
It's good to know that where real swimming is required, people can't wear little tri toys.

Mswimming
August 17th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Guvnah
We ought to be rejoicing over anyone's desire to improve his/her physical fitness and capabilities, in whatever what they can, and in whatever way they choose. And if that includes some work in the pool, all the more reason for rejoicing.

I couldn't agree more.

I was lucky enough to swim at the LCM championship meet this past weekend and I was truly inspired by all of the age 70, 80 and 90 plus year young swimmers there giving it their best. It was absolutely amazing to see. Old school Pike starts and all. I just had to smile and hope that someday I would be able to dive off the blocks and swim 50 meters of any stroke at age 90. Let alone the 200 fly! And many of the older athletes were wearing fastskins, too.

If guys like Damage Inc (or anyone else for that matter) wants to call people posers for getting out there and trying improve their quality of life regarless of what activity they do or what they wear doing it, then I think they are missing the point.

Damage Inc
August 17th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Any-Hoo,Back to the reason for this thread;

Triathlets need a thread on this site to feel good about themselves and not be ashamed of being a USMS member and participant.
So whats your favorite Tri Swim workout? Heres mine;

Warm Up; 2 mile run to the pool, keeping HRM below 120.
Stay hydrated, bring Accelerade with you.

Kick set: 500 free swim (your legs are already buff from the run).

Drill set: 500 free x 2. #1 head up breathing to practice spoting potential drafing partners.
#2 Practice arm bashing, foot pulling, and head mashing with your lane mates and those in the next lane.

I.M. Set: 1000 free; don't injure your shoulder doing fly or get a groin strain doing breast stroke. And back, well, who cares.

Main Set: 1000 free broken at the 500 for 15 sec. rest to simulate floating in your WS during the race to get your bearings.
Do this once if you have a 30 mile Bike ride today, twice if its for 50 miles or more.

Sprint Set (My Favorite): 25 free x 10.
Wear your wet suit and when you finish each 25, get out of the pool and practice running back to the start while removing it. This will shave Major Time off your transition.

Warm Down: Forget it, you got a bike ride to get to. And besides you have to stop off at the bike shop to pick up your custom made water bottle cages painted to match yor bike and tri top colors.

Hope this helps.

Damage Inc
August 17th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Mswimming
If guys like Damage Inc (or anyone else for that matter) wants to call people posers for getting out there and trying improve their quality of life regarless of what activity they do or what they wear doing it, then I think they are missing the point.

M, please dont take my comments about posers the wrong way, I also applaud those same swimmers as you. But you need to realize that by substituting the word triathlete for swimmer you get the same thing I've been saying all along.

Peter Cruise
August 17th, 2005, 05:55 PM
Barry, I think your sense of humour will fit right in here (in any usms thread).

Peter Cruise
August 17th, 2005, 05:58 PM
And remember, John and Farley are thread pyros...

Damage Inc
August 17th, 2005, 06:20 PM
Thanks for the words of encouragement Peter.
Yeah I've seen their flame work and thought long and hard before starting this thread, but after consulting my friends at www.slowtwitch.com they agreed it was a good cause.

FindingMyInnerFish
August 17th, 2005, 11:41 PM
Wetsuit issue

In the race info for my first open water ocean swim, it said that wet suits were recommended and that water temp would be in the mid-60s. This had me worried b/c I don't own a wetsuit, none were available for rent anywhere near where I live, and I wasn't about to buy something that expensive for my first ocean race. So I asked my coach what he thought. He said that he never wore a wetsuit for the swim and that lots of ppl didn't. Also that they could be constricting and that once you started the race, you were stuck w/ the thing. (Of course, this would be also true w/ a regular suit, but I could see his point.)

As it turned out, the initial utter panic of swimming through breakers for the first time raised my heart rate sufficiently to warm me up so I managed just fine w/out the wetsuit. ;)

There were times when the water felt a tad chilly, but since I was moving, I figured that in itself would keep me warm enough and it had been so hot that I welcomed a bit of chill in the water.

Will I buy a wetsuit? No plans to do that--eventually, I might replace my faded chlorine-eaten suit, though. ;)

As for triathletes vs. swimmers vs. runners vs. ... I'm cool w/ anyone who's taking the time to train and increase his/her fitness/speed in whatever the chosen sport(s) simply b/c they love what they're doing and value the practice time. Don't get me started on some of the big-time pro athletes who complain b/c they're not making enough millions per year.

F'ueco
August 17th, 2005, 11:47 PM
I agree with what FMIF said about the wetsuit/no-wetsuit debate.

The reason I have never gotten one is that I can't really afford to pay $350 for a decent one. I also have a fairly high tolerance for cold water (and weather for that matter: I routinely ride my bike to work wearing shorts and a tshirt even in temperatures down to 30). I do stand by my assertion that there should always be separate categories for people who swim (or do triathlons) without a wetsuit. There is something to be said for taking on the cold water wearing nothing but a standard suit.

gjy
August 18th, 2005, 03:47 AM
"it just seems that there are far more [posers] in the "tri world".

Posers luuuv equipment so combining bikes and suits is killer! Guaranteed those legs are shaved and shining!

A triathlon is a race of all posers. The worst one wins. Triathletes are typically born late after each individual sport passed them by. It's an attempt to claim lost glory.

I apologize; I'm just laughing at myself. I'm lower than a triathlete. I run, cycle, and swim but I don't officially compete. My heart is with the triathlete but I've never had good enough recovery time to be great at any individual sport let alone three together. I'm relegated to being the poser of a poser. I even buy my cycling clothes from tri stores.

aquageek
August 18th, 2005, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by gjy
[BA triathlon is a race of all posers. The worst one wins. Triathletes are typically born late after each individual sport passed them by. [/B]

A sport for late bloomers? This thread might have more relevance to this USMS community than I originally thought. Do you have opinions on V02Max?

gull
August 18th, 2005, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
I've seen gull80 in his performance enhancing fastskin. I'm fairly certain hard work is the key to his success.

Yes, but you still beat me in the 50 wearing jammers. In my defense, I'm older and don't have a single fast twitch fiber in my body.

Damage Inc
August 18th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by gjy
"it just seems that there are far more [posers] in the "tri world".

Posers luuuv equipment so combining bikes and suits is killer!

OK, there seems to be quite a bit of uneasyness when it comes to triathlon equipment. Let me help out a bit.
1. Helmet. required equipment, much more protective than a swim cap during 30 mph mishaps. I try not to get the "budget buy" on this one.
2. Sunglasses. More versatile than goggles.
3. Wet Suit. Its the norm, its in the rules, and it helps distinguish us from the pure swimmers who are only there as a relay member (posers).
4. Aqua Sphere goggles. Needed to spot relay swimmers to draft off of them.
5. Tri Top. Better UV protection than skin and highlights muscle definition better.
5a. Tri shorts. Shorter than bike shorts, and never ever be seen in those speedos that swimmers wear.
6. Bike. Required equipment for the 2nd leg.
7. Clip-on aero bars. Make you look fast.
8. Disk areo wheels. Sound really cool.
9. Tri/Timetrial Bike. Optional, but makes you look fast like Lance.
10. H2O bottles. Better than cups.
11. Towel. Good for wiping sweat and Gatorade off your bike.
12. Running Shoes. Fins are absolutly illegal in tris.
13 Running Hat. Supports someone elses sponsor.
14. H2O belt. No thanks.
15. Heart Rate Monitor. Makes a cool gift.

Hope this helps out.

aquageek
August 18th, 2005, 12:24 PM
Requirements for swimming - pool/lake/ocean, suit, goggles

I think Damage has summed it all up. There are 15 requirements for being a triathlete, 11 of which are solely to make yourself look "cool."

In swimming I find to be the best you have to beat the best (a quote I will attribute to Ric Flair, a Charlotte resident). Apparently in triathloning you just have to look like the best to be the best. It's also mandatory to get the ironman tattoo or bumpersticker. Admit it, Damage, you have one on your car, fess up.

Damage Inc
August 18th, 2005, 12:41 PM
No, I dont have one but I sure wish I did, because making it to the IronMan Kona Championships is quite difficult where only the top guys in there national age groups make it in by qualifying in other IronMan races. This is much different than The USMS National Championships where there are qualifying times, but, well, you dont really have to be that fast, you only have to write it in.

Kevin in MD
August 18th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
Any-Hoo,Back to the reason for this thread;

Triathlets need a thread on this site to feel good about themselves and not be ashamed of being a USMS member and participant.
So whats your favorite Tri Swim workout?

That's a pretty solid workout except on the bike ride home I make sure to wear a sleeveless jersey and try to find some roadies to ride with. Or solo in front of, you see the swimming helps build the shoulders and arms so gthe sleeveless jersey is essential. Th roadies dislike it so much they have rules madating that in a biek race you must have sleeves on your jersey. That's because they were embarrassed by the massive guns of the triathletes that showed up.

Swimmy
August 18th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Ladies,
Listen carefully. You can hear the primitive tribal chest beating and knuckle dragging. Very interesting...almost as good as the great jammer and speedo debate!
hahaha
Swimmy:)

Matt S
August 18th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Posers: Triathletes make this exact point about each other. One of my old college swim team mates turned pro on the Tri circuit in the 1980s. I went with him to watch him compete in a tri (coincidentally, the first he won). Just before the race, he pointed out to me guys who had the cutting edge, thousands of dollars bikes. He pointed out that none of them would be anywhere near the leaders, and in fact a superexpensive bike was an indicator it's rider was NOT a serious threat to win the race. Like one of the Australian olympic swimmers said about fastskins just before the 2000 Games, if I'm ready to swim, I could be wearing a brown paper sack and it wouldn't matter.

Triathletes who work hard: some swimmers have accused tri-guys of not wanting to work hard at swimming. Some of the tri-guys have shot back that in the swim workouts they observed, the triathletes were more focused and business-like, with less "yiketty-yak" than the swimmers. Both are partially true, and this clearly illustrates the differing mindsets. Swimming ain't running or biking. Tri-guys want to do swim training the same way they do the other two sports: high volume, low rest interval, go as fast as possible in as much pain as they can take as long as possible. In short, pure aerobic training. (hence the term "aerobocops") What they don't get is that in swimming, pure guts will only get you so far. Many of them resist the idea that just improving technique would result in far more improvement in their swim times than any amount of conditioning with their old and lousy swim habits. I have inadvertantly eaves dropped on triathletes complaining about TI instructors who want them to focus on balance drills when they are 4-6 weeks from their tri-race. To a tri-guy, swimmers look like they are slacking off in workout. Swimmers think they are doing slow stroke drills to work on technique. Or, they are doing speed training that can only be done with lots of rest between swims. Swimmers and triathletes trying to talk to each other is sometimes like two people who don't speak each other's language trying to communicate by speaking ever louder and more slowly.

Posers, part deux: I resent (and resemble) the remark that posers finish in the bottom 10% of the race, and that those who finish in the bottom 10% are posers. It's all relative. I sometimes swim at USMS Nationals, where I regularly finish in the bottom 10% (and this would be the case if I broke personal records). I may look like a "poser" at that level, but I can show you some other venues where I'd look much better. Let's look at what else we could mean by poser--someone who does not work as hard and looks unsuccessfully for short-cuts to going faster. Well golly Sgt Carter, compared to my college days, I am absolutely, positively a posing slacker 'cause I don't do near the same volume or intensity of work. (Comes with have A JOB, and BTW the same applies to all but a handful of the people reading this post.) In that sense, we swimmers ought to acknowledge that the one thing triathletes do better and more off than we do (on average, in general) is spend countless hours on road work. They may be technique block-heads, but they kill us when it comes to the number of hours spent working-out.

Mediocrity: I have met several serious triathletes who pursue that sport with all their heart, then dive into the pool where they are among the fastest swimmers on the team, AND leading the stroke and IM sets too. It is a false dicotomy to claim that pursuing triathloning prevents you from being an outstanding stroke swimmer. Excellence is excellence (and to be blunt, God-given athletic talent usually trumps both coaching and conditioning).

So will someone please tie Aquageek to a bicycle frame, and give him 50 lashes with a heart rate monitor? If you really want to have fun, give him a choice between that or 20 hours of sensitivity training. I'm betting he'll take the heart rate monitor.

Matt

aquageek
August 18th, 2005, 04:17 PM
First of all, I'm glad I have company in the bottom 10% at nationals. While comforting, it's also a little discouraging.

Second, I acutally have taken 15 hours of sensitivity training this summer, believe it or not. It's actually called something else and it's at my church but it's the same basic thing.

I'll lay off the tris. I'm happy to swim with anyone.

MommyCoach
August 18th, 2005, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
The roadies dislike it so much they have rules madating that in a bike race you must have sleeves on your jersey. That's because they were embarrassed by the massive guns of the triathletes that showed up.

Ha! That's really funny! I agree with you! I just joined a fully sponsored road racing team and I can barely squeeze my swimmer arms into a size medium womens jersey. And I'm barely swimming right now. Looks like I'll have to buy an XL jersey next year!

But really, I think they made sleeved-jerseys a rule because sponsored road racing teams have many sponsors that need to be advertised on the jerseys. And if they allowed sleveless jerseys to be worn in races, then many teams would have trouble squishing all their sponsors onto the jersey. And there's a rule that states the team name must be on both the front and back, clearly visible, and not swallowed up by a montage of other sponsors logos.

Damage Inc
August 18th, 2005, 05:39 PM
I thought this was sensativity training.

Ken Classen
August 18th, 2005, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Damage Inc
No, I dont have one but I sure wish I did, because making it to the IronMan Kona Championships is quite difficult where only the top guys in there national age groups make it in by qualifying in other IronMan races. This is much different than The USMS National Championships where there are qualifying times, but, well, you dont really have to be that fast, you only have to write it in.

There is something known as the Lotto for Kona. I had a guy couple of years ago showed up to my Masters practice at the end of August. Said he was doing the Ironman in Kona in 6 weeks and needed to get in swim shape. After watching him swim a 100, my first thought was "they have a swim time cut off time don't they". My first question for him was when did he qual? His response he had not qualified he made it in via the lotto. As I know several Tri-athletes who worked there butt's off to qual I really thought it was disservice to them to have the lotto. By the way as Tall Paul can attest, there have been many of us who would prefer provable qual times at nationals not the honor system. Somewhere there's a thread on that.

Conniekat8
August 19th, 2005, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Ken Classen
By the way as Tall Paul can attest, there have been many of us who would prefer provable qual times at nationals not the honor system. Somewhere there's a thread on that.

That topic has been debated ad-nauseum.

It's not so much that the QT's are honor system, it's that USMS does not have the man power and the times database to do the verifications.
If we had the droves of people volunteering to help with verifications like there are droves of people complaining about it being based on honor system (by default), times would be verified.

Of course, we could also raise your dues, let's say double, and implement a snazzy computerized national database and hire people to maintain it.

Or we could charge two or three hundred bucks as the entry fee for the nationals, so we could pay for the manpower to verify the times.

I would like to invite those who don't like the system to come to their local LMSC meetings and start contributing where it counts and where they can make changes.
Intelectualizing about things on this forum doesn't get much accomplished.

aquageek
August 19th, 2005, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by Conniekat8
Or we could charge two or three hundred bucks as the entry fee for the nationals, so we could pay for the manpower to verify the times.

Intelectualizing about things on this forum doesn't get much accomplished.

I don't believe it would take a herculean effort to do this. If all USMS sanctioned meets were required to submit results via the web to USMS, it wouldn't take a great deal of time, money or brain power to dump these into a table that entries for nationals could be verified against.

I'm personally in favor of the honor system and don't think anyone is getting away with cheating on a grand order with the current system.

Damage Inc
August 19th, 2005, 12:06 PM
Wow, I actually agree with you on something Geek. I also see no major problem with the USMS honor system.

Peter Cruise
August 19th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Wow, the geek and damage agreeing? Peace in our time! Damage, there's this arch-adversary of Geek's (a late bloomin' kind of swimmer) you should meet...

aquageek
August 19th, 2005, 01:42 PM
When did we start offering reciprocal memberships to Canadians? Someone check Cruise's status and get back to me.

shoalsswimmer
August 19th, 2005, 01:53 PM
I do not see a problem with the current honor system for the Nationals.

People that put in false times in order to swim the full complement of events at nationals are on their own.

I don't think cheating of that nature is that prevalent; and even so - if you put in a time well below of what you are capable and finish way off - the embarrasment alone should be punishment enough. Usually only your teammates and a few others would know, but that should be enough to deter most individuals from such a deceitful ploy.

It's not that big of a deal.

Peter Cruise
August 19th, 2005, 02:11 PM
Geek, I'm a roving kibitzer with contrarian leanings.

I certainly don't think there is any problem with the USMS honor system (no don't get me started on sandbaggers, Michael Heather would start pounding his keyboard). I did notice (to my eye) that here seemed a lot of no-shows at this Nats, or was it not positive check-in?