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hornHead
August 20th, 2005, 11:53 AM
I am interested if anyone could shed some light on citizenship/resident requirements in relation to National/USMS relay records. Is it possible for a record setting relay with one or more members of that relay, not being a US citizen(s) or even a resident(s), to be recognized as such?

aquageek
August 20th, 2005, 01:00 PM
Canadians are allowed to hold USMS records unless the first two letters of their last name begin with "Cr," in which case they are specifically excluded.

It's a fact, check the rule book, it's right after the rules regarding early bloomer/late bloomer time differentials.

Peter Cruise
August 20th, 2005, 01:44 PM
There is a faint annoying buzzing noise coming from my computer, probably some inconsequential lower lifeform...

There are USMS members who are citizens of other countries, some of them have held USMS records.

mbmg3282
August 20th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Only a member of USMS can be recognized for a USMS record. USMS does not have a residency requirement, so a swimmer with Mexican citizenship belonging to a USMS team would be eligible to hold a USMS record.

Karen Duggan
August 20th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Do I sniff another compelling convention topic, Mark?

Peter Cruise
August 20th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Originally, I know some some Canadian swimmers registered USMS because they liked to compete in your yards meets & be eligible for some sort of record (no yards records kept in Canada). Also, upon occasion large US 'super teams' have been known to recruit for their relays from north of the border for the yards nats (this I know from personal experience; I declined [I wasn't always as slow as now]).
If a Canadian swimmer registers as USMS & competes in US metric meets as USMS, I believe they are ineligible for Canadian records or top 10.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some Canadians haven't registered USMS simply because they live along the border in places where the nearest pool &/or club is in a US city.

aquageek
August 20th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Are you saying we are denying talented and capable US swimmers the right to get a USMS membership in favor of foreign swimmers? My goodness, the inhumanity of it all!

justforfun
August 22nd, 2005, 11:15 AM
Are you saying we are denying talented and capable US swimmers the right to get a USMS membership in favor of foreign swimmers? My goodness, the inhumanity of it all!

Exactly. I'll bet we're paying for their memberships as well!

Paul Smith
August 23rd, 2005, 10:50 AM
Wait till Evil-Godsmith gets a hold of this.....given his "no foreigners getting US scholorships thread"!

It's bad enough that he has to live with a former Cal swimmer holding the WR in the 40-44 50m free!

TheGoodSmith
August 23rd, 2005, 11:01 AM
The way I see it. If I can put up with someone beating me who went to a Division III school like UCSB, I can probably put up with foreigners competing at USMS nationals.....:-)


National records........ are a different matter. A US Masters national record should be eligible for US citizens only. Make another category like "US Open" if you want foreigners to be recognized in the US for national best times.


Then again..... it's just masters swimming. The beer is more important in the end.


John Smith

Paul Smith
August 23rd, 2005, 11:34 AM
I hate to admit it, but I agree with Evil-Good on this! It seems VERY strange that USMS would set up records in this way, what say you Mr. Gill?!

By the way Evil-Good, as I explained to you once before Gauchos herd Longhorns all day the cook a few for dinner at camp each night......not to mention we're VERY proud of our THREE national (Divison I) championships; Surfing, Ulitmate Frisbee & Water Polo!

My guess is that Austin probably has nicer beaches?! :)

TheGoodSmith
August 23rd, 2005, 11:40 AM
I'm sure the Texmex cuisine and margaritas are outstanding in the land of ridiculous real estate rates.

Careful or I really will buy that vacant lot next to you up in the mountains..... peace and quiet will be no more.


John Smith

aquageek
August 23rd, 2005, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
National records........ are a different matter. A US Masters national record should be eligible for US citizens only. Make another category like "US Open" if you want foreigners to be recognized in the US for national best times.

Is there a nationality requirement for USMS membership?

Peter Cruise
August 23rd, 2005, 12:55 PM
As far as I know, there is no nationality requirement- there are pernicious Canadians infiltrating as we speak; you can usually tell by their refusal to drink the diluted, tasteless swill you call beer.

If you were to move to a US Open- US Citizen record-keeping system, I'm sure it would be fair & just, but might inspire a revolt from registrars & record keepers (molto extra work). Would you require evidence of citizenship with membership?

Conniekat8
August 23rd, 2005, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Is there a nationality requirement for USMS membership?

I don't believe there is.
Our local registrars should be the ones who can tell us for sure.

aquageek
August 23rd, 2005, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
As far as I know, there is no nationality requirement- there are pernicious Canadians infiltrating as we speak; you can usually tell by their refusal to drink the diluted, tasteless swill you call beer.


Now them is fightin' words. At least we can enjoy our bad beer while eating a steak from a cow that isn't infected with mad cow.

And, btw, adding sugar to whisky doesn't make it drinkable.

knelson
August 23rd, 2005, 01:05 PM
It seems to me USMS records are just that: the fastest times ever recorded by USMS members. They aren't U.S. records, they are USMS records.
-------------------
Peter Cruise said:

"...there are pernicious Canadians infiltrating as we speak; you can usually tell by their refusal to drink the diluted, tasteless swill you call beer."

I can't allow this old wives tale to go unchallenged. Canadian beer is NOT stronger than U.S. beer. Traditionally the U.S. has measured alcohol in beer as percent by weight, while Canada has measured it as percent by volume. Since alcohol is less dense than water the ABV numbers are higher by something like 20%.

Frank Thompson
August 23rd, 2005, 01:18 PM
Aquageek:

No there is not a nationality requirement for memebership in USMS and I believe there will never be one because it would be in violation of the Equal Opportunity Clause. Rule 501.3. is written as follows: "Membership in USMS shall not be denied by virtue of race, creed, gender, religion, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation, or national origin." This appears on page 88 in the 2005 USMS Rule Book. Many years ago at the USAS convention there was considerable debate on the floor as to what should be written in this rule and what exclusions if any should appear. After long debates this is what appears from those discussions.

Mark Gill is correct in that only a member of USMS can hold a National Record. The key here is to be a member of the organization. It does not require residency requirement. I believe all of the member FINA countries work like this for Masters only. In the early 1990's I remember seeing Rowdy Gaines having World Records from the country of Japan. I know he wasn't resident there but he must have registered for the Japan organization and swam as a Japan registered swimmer to have the records count for Japan. Registration is necessary for a WR and it does not have to be from the country you are a citizen of.

Now I know you can't have dual registrations from two different countries. I know people in the past that have done this, for example having a USMS membership and having Canadian membership and they have been notified by the governing bodies to choose only one. Foreign swimmers are welcome at our USMS National Meets but cannot set USMS records or be eligible for USMS Top Ten.

A foreign swimmer is defined as an athlete member of a FINA member federation, other than USMS. In rule 201.4.3 it states "Any foreign swimmers requesting an invitation to participate in USMS events may have such an invitation extended only by the USMS president or the president's designee." I don't know if this is done a lot, but usually the most foreign swimmers I see at USMS events are either from Canada and Mexico.

Right now USMS keeps no US Open Masters records. I think it pretty much follows what USA swimming does except they have the residency requirement. So if Roland Schoeman wants to buy a USMS card in Arizona and show up at any USMS meet and start breaking USMS records, its perfectly legal under USMS rules.

Paul Smith
August 23rd, 2005, 02:07 PM
I'd hate to see us change the eligibility requirement and I don't think that is what we are saying.......the more the better (just as in USS foreign swimmers are registerd).

What should be changed however is the record keeping system to how USS works; American (USMS) records help by citizens, World records for all and US Open for the fastest times swum in at USMS meet (this would recognize foreign swimmers who have a faster time than a US swimmer without allowing them to hold the US record as well).

Seems like a simple fix? Especially with Worlds bringing about 10,000 people into town!

aquageek
August 23rd, 2005, 02:14 PM
Frank:

Thanks for that thorough explanation. Glad to see USMS has its head straight on that topic. And, who the heck cares if a foreigner has a USMS record anyhow? You want a record for US, join and compete with USS. That layer of beurocracy isn't needed for USMS.

hornHead
August 23rd, 2005, 02:19 PM
Now I know you can't have dual registrations from two different countries. I know people in the past that have done this, for example having a USMS membership and having Canadian membership and they have been notified by the governing bodies to choose only one. Foreign swimmers are welcome at our USMS National Meets but cannot set USMS records or be eligible for USMS Top Ten.

Having reviewed the results from the recent USMS Nationals there certainly appears to be a case of a swimmer having dual registration (Masters Swimming Canada/USMS) participating in record setting relays.

Peter Cruise
August 23rd, 2005, 02:58 PM
Farney- there are now more cases of mad cow being investigated in the US than in Canada, but, if you want my opinion, we are seeing the tip of the iceberg in North America; the way livestock are fed, housed, transported etc. in both countries can be very dangerous to both the health of the animals (not even mentioning humane concerns) & eventually to people.

Kirk- now am I to be listening to some callow young fellow from Seattle, breath & taste buds forever ruined by some triple-frangilatte espresso rainforesto from Starbucks? For sure you wouldn't be making such outrageous claims, for it is well-known worldwide that American beer is only barely fit for swabbing down the streets after closing time.

It might be simple to solve this discussion to Tall Paul's satisfaction without a nightmare paperflow: on the honor system. just like Nats qualifying, there would be a box to check US citizen or not, you do not deny them membership if not, simply assign them a unique series of USMS membership #'s that would make it easy for record keepers, top ten lists & meet coordinators to identify them as ineligble for records etc. They could still swim, participate & place if merited, but no official records.

I too have known of people having simultaneous registrations in both countries.

TheGoodSmith
August 23rd, 2005, 03:05 PM
No one said we should require you to be a US citizen to register and swim with USMS. The subject is National records and qualification status for these records. There are far fewer national records broken each year than there are people registering for USMS. This is not a huge administrative task or burden to show proof on these records.


John Smith

Frank Thompson
August 23rd, 2005, 03:10 PM
horn Head:

I guess it can be done because the FINA federations don't share the same registration data base. The USMS registration card does not have language forbidding registration if you are registered with another FINA federation. Where it will be caught will be if the individual makes the FINA Top Ten under 2 member FINA federations. Many years ago I knew swimmers you lived near the boarders of both the USA and Canada. For about 2 years they swam for both federations and the first year they made the FINA Top Ten is the year they had to choose which federation they would represent and the one they did not excluded all of there times from FINA Top Ten. I don't know what will happen in the case your talking about because relays sometimes are harder to spot than individual events.

Paul, do you know of any swimmers setting USMS records that are not citizens. I know Martin Zubero and Anthony Nesty have set records in USMS and I know they live here now but maybe they are citizens. If not, those are the only two that I can think of. When you went to Australia, did they have Open records there that you set? I can't imagine the work to keep up USMS Open Records.

The only two meets I can think of that had large foreign swimmers were the two international meets in Indianapolis in 1989 and 1992. USMS has had foreign teams that compete in our Nationals. And next year at Stanford will have a lot of foreign swimmers setting WR on US soil. If you could convince some people at the USAS convention for a rules change its still not to late this year to do it. You would also have to get a box on the registration card with citizen and non citzen marked off. That I believe would also require a change in registration requirements for USMS swimmers to be citizens of the USA. It sounds like a simple fix but I know you have been to the USAS convention and I just know from experience that this would not be the case.

aquageek
August 23rd, 2005, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
Farney- there are now more cases of mad cow being investigated in the US than in Canada...

...for it is well-known worldwide that American beer is only barely fit for swabbing down the streets after closing time.


Yeah, all the cases in the US are from Canadian cattle. We open the border and look what happens.

I'm glad to see you stand up for your meat and beer. It's good to see Canadians stand up for something.

tjburk
August 23rd, 2005, 03:23 PM
I must say that being an American...I am a bad American when it comes to beer!!! After spending four years in Germany, I find it hard to drink the standard American beers...Bud...Miller...Etc. Now I know why my dad always called them "Carbonated Horse P_ss!" LOL :D ;)

Frank Thompson
August 23rd, 2005, 03:30 PM
I wasn't clear on my statement. It should have said "USMS swimmers to be citizens of the USA to set USMS records. Non citizens would not be eligible to set USMS records but would be eligible to set USMS Open Records.

Now I assume that US citizens would be eligible to set USMS Open record if they have the fastest time on USMS soil. Also, say if Paul Smith sets a World Record in Australia it would not count as a USMS Open Record because he did not do the swim on USMS soil. This is what USA Swimming does. Is this what Good and Evil Smith mean with Open records.

Paul Smith
August 23rd, 2005, 03:30 PM
Frank,
Actually I have expereince with the reverse. We swam in Australia's masters nationals this past May and had an incredible time. Unkown to me however was that I had created quite a controversy becuase I had broken the national record (Australian) in 5 events which had generated protests from a number of coaches.

Now granted, I was ready to jump ship and move there but was in no way feeling that my times should be recognized. The solution was that they designated my swims as "exhibition" s far as records bu still awarded first places. In the 50 fly where I broke the WR they did submit all the paperwork to Fina for recogniton.

All in all I thought they handled as they should have (and we could).............they even asked Laura & I to swim on an "international" relay with a woman from England and a guy from Germany!

Peter Cruise
August 23rd, 2005, 03:39 PM
Frank- there was one older male breastroker from Vancouver Island whose name I conveniently (& honestly) forget, who was actively manipulating his dual registration status & breaking records in both countries, but I don't know how much he got away with because Walt Reid (fina top ten keeper from PNA) was aware of him. Ill health has removed him from the equation.

Farney- if you work your google, you'll find the last two had no connection to Canada. As I say, the inspection systems in both countries use suspect methodology & inadequate scrutiny for my comfort (esp. considering how many hamburgers under the bridge for me).

aquageek
August 23rd, 2005, 04:05 PM
Between the Canadian Mad Cow epidemic and this Bird Flu thing, maybe the vegan wackos have something to offer, after all.

mbmg3282
August 23rd, 2005, 06:01 PM
I know that there have been a number of foreign athletes that have been registered USMS members and have broken USMS records. While I was the records chair in Arizona, we had a number that I can think of set records:

Atilla Czene (Hungary)
Memo diaz de Leon (Mexico)
Clare Hedenskog (somewhere in Europe)
Simon Percy (New Zealand)
Riley Mants (Canada)
Beata Kaszuba (Poland)
Camilla Johansson (Sweden)
Francisco Sanchez (Venezuela)

Not all of these athletes still hold the records, but I did file record applications for each of them. With the greater number of foreign swimmers attending college in the US and staying afterwards, I suspect this trend will continue.

However, I wonder if there are enough to warrent having separate Open Records. If we did, what would we gain?

knelson
August 23rd, 2005, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
Seems like a simple fix? Especially with Worlds bringing about 10,000 people into town!

This is a FINA sanctioned meet, so it's not like foreign swimmers will be able to break USMS records (unless they are USMS members, that is).

My opinion is still that USMS records should be citizenship independent as they currently are. I just don't see the need for USMS Open records, or whatever you want to call them.

hornHead
August 23rd, 2005, 06:50 PM
Check USMS Nationals.

Event 19 Men 240-279 200 LC Meter Medley Relay.

Brian Stack
August 23rd, 2005, 07:56 PM
hornHead wrote: Check USMS Nationals.
Event 19 Men 240-279 200 LC Meter Medley Relay.

Checked it, what are we looking for?

jim clemmons
August 23rd, 2005, 11:02 PM
Maybe that's why the Irvine team was d'qed? jk

Jim

Allen Stark
August 23rd, 2005, 11:36 PM
I don't know his citizenship or current registration status but Tim Shead has swum for and set records for USMS and South Africa.

jim clemmons
August 24th, 2005, 12:02 AM
Hopefully Tim will chime in on this but he's from Florida originally (I believe) and is associated with Gold Coast.

Jim

hornHead
August 24th, 2005, 12:28 AM
1 SDSM 'A' 2:07.30 2:05.90W
1) Van Baalen, Vinus 63 33.27
2) Andersen, Peter 62 1:07.98 (34.71)
3) Lautman, Scott M 53 1:36.69 (28.71)
4) Freshley, Mike R 64 2:05.90 (29.21)

Allen Stark
August 24th, 2005, 12:28 AM
Yes,but he swam for RSA at Worlds in Italy.( I don't mean to cast any aspersions on him,he's a great guy.If only he was'nt faster than I .....)

Allen Stark
August 24th, 2005, 12:33 AM
What is the significance of Vinus Van Baalen being on the relay.(This is not merely academic interest as I was on the relay that held the WR they broke.)

hornHead
August 24th, 2005, 01:19 AM
My understanding is that he a Canadian citizen, residing in Edmonton, Alberta and is the contact for Edmonton Dragon Masters Swim Club.

knelson
August 24th, 2005, 01:22 AM
Apparently the San Diego group actively recruited for these relays. I asked Scott Lautman why he was representing SDSM (he lives in Seattle) and it was because the San Diego group recruited him at the World Masters Games in Edmonton.

Rob Copeland
August 24th, 2005, 08:25 AM
Skip,

Where did you get the impression that a USMS member could not hold a membership in another Masters Swimming NGB? Is this a FINA rule, because it is most definitely not a USMS rule. USMS rules prohibit members from concurrently holding 2 USMS memberships, but NOT from holding membership in, for instance, USMS and Canada Masters.

Frank Thompson
August 24th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Rob:

What I meant to say is that it is greatly discouraged to hold memberships in two FINA member federations. Many years ago I knew a swimmer who was contacted by the USMS Top Ten Chair because they had swims in the Top Ten for both the countries of the USA and Canada. They were told to choose one federation in the future. I never said there is a policy in USMS. "The USMS registration card does not have language forbidding registration if you are registered with another FINA federation."

Perhaps Walt Reid or June Krauser can shed some light on this. I was on the FINA site a couple of weeks ago and they have policy that supports this but I am not sure if Masters swimming was included in the policy and it just covers the other aquatic disciplines. It would seem to me if that we have a policy that discouages this here in USMS for LMSC's and Clubs, why we would not support this same restriction for dual membership in FINA member federations.

I think this issue should be addressed especially with the 2006 Masters World Swimming Championships next year. I personally talked to Rowdy Gaines at the 1992 FINA World Championships and asked him why he represented Japan in 1991. He said at the time he was in Japan he wanted to swim in a Masters meet there but was unregistered in USMS and had to get a Japanese registration to swim in their meet. All of his World Records for that year were listed as Japan.

I know it would be impossible to marshall because all of the FINA federations register swimmers differently and have separate data bases. They also have different eligibility requirements as learned from Paul Smith with his experiences this past year in Australia.

I wonder if there will be massive recruiting going on before the meet at Stanford. Just think, you could contact the best masters swimmers in the world and break all of the available relay records. Right now from what your saying Rob, this could be done and is perfectly legal.

Allen Stark
August 24th, 2005, 12:36 PM
Van Baalen has been getting Top Ten times with SDSM since 1999 so he obviously has ties there. I think it's fine to stay registered with your old team if one wants. Recruiting outside your LMSC seems slimy to me though.

Rob Copeland
August 24th, 2005, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
I wonder if there will be massive recruiting going on before the meet at Stanford. Just think, you could contact the best masters swimmers in the world and break all of the available relay records. Right now from what your saying Rob, this could be done and is perfectly legal. I think the Smith brothers are already busy recruiting Popov and Bousquet to join their team for the 200 Free relay at Worlds. Or were they trying to get Smirnoff and Bordeaux?

hornHead
August 24th, 2005, 08:33 PM
I've done a little checking on this character Van Baalen. All of my sources are in the public domain.

The primary source is the statistical records of Masters Swimming Canada http://www3.sympatico.ca/chberger/#canada These records are maintained by Christian Berger. Once you get on the site click on Canada 24JUN then the National Rankings 96 - 04 and take a tour around. You'll get the hang of it.

His name appears mostly in the 50-54, 55 - 59 & 60-64 age groups. It also appears that he moved from Ontario to Alberta around 1998.

The second source is a check on http://www.411.ca This confirms that he at least has a residence in Edmonton. The 3rd comes from the Alberta Masters Swimming Club links page. http://www.albertamasters.ca/masters_links/masters_links.html He is the contact for Edmonton Dragons.

My gut tells me that there is more to this than meets the eye. I believe that the very integrity of records being set using this guy is compromised. This is an ethics issue more than a rules issue.
I'll even go out on a limb and say he's a hired gun.

Allen Stark
August 24th, 2005, 08:50 PM
If Scott Laufman swam World Masters registered with PNA he could not properly been SDSM. If he moved to San Diego after SCY or something,then fine. This does seem a ringer relay. Anyone have some inside info?

Paul Smith
August 25th, 2005, 08:55 AM
Simple solution...follow the USS model:

- World Records
- US Records
- US Open Records

- allow (encourage) foreign athletes to register with USMS but they could not hold US records or be on relays that break US records.

aquageek
August 25th, 2005, 09:09 AM
I'm trying to understand why USMS needs to follow the USS format. Who really cares? What's the big deal of having US records, world records, etc? Aren't we past that as USMS members?

TheGoodSmith
August 25th, 2005, 10:11 AM
Well if you have a National Record that a foreigner owns its not really an "American" record is it . Call it what it is. The best time done by someone in the country is either done by an American or by a foreigner, but a foreigner can not technically hold an "American" record as he is not an American citizen.

Sounds like an easy solution to me. Have 3 instead of 2 distinctions as Paul indicated.

- World records
- US or American Records
- US Open Record


John Smith

Frank Thompson
August 25th, 2005, 10:21 AM
Paul:

If you are really serious about this get a rules change proposal completed at once. I don't know if you are going to attend the convention like you did in 2003 in San Diego, and I know Mr. Goodsmith will probably not attend either. Get with your delegates from your LMSC. I remember you wanted to get a SCM National meet set up and you went to the convention in 2003 to get the delegates to approve this. Get Cindy Hawkinson to submit this for your LMSC if you are not going. Like I said in my prior post if you can convince USMS delegates having separate records and show HOW USMS would gain from this, than I am sure it has a chance to pass.

I know the timeline has expired to get a rules change to Leo and his committee but if you and Mr. Goodsmith really fell passionate about this especially with the 2006 Masters World Swimming Championships coming up, NOW is the time to put in the proposal. You will probably have to introduce this in the rules committee meeting and see if the committee wants to take this on. Its worth a try.

aquageek
August 25th, 2005, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
The best time done by someone in the country is either done by an American or by a foreigner, but a foreigner can not technically hold an "American" record as he is not an American citizen.

We could always just reward a swimmer for outstanding results and not be so focused on the country of origin. Wait, we already do that. But, I guess some folks need more ribbons.

TheGoodSmith
August 25th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Yes, why don't we just pass out beer coupons for national records instead.


John Smith

Frank Thompson
August 25th, 2005, 11:22 AM
Mr Goodsmith:

Are you or Paul thinking about putting a rules change thru? You and Paul have provided rationale in your posts for the delegates to consider a change. About the beer coupons, I would leave that up to the host of the National Championships and not implement that in the rules change.

aquageek
August 25th, 2005, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Yes, why don't we just pass out beer coupons for national records instead.

I'll agree to this as long as we only serve quality American beer. Take that Cruise!

Peter Cruise
August 25th, 2005, 01:03 PM
If you only serve American beer you won't have to worry about any foreigners competing for the award. Geek has solved the dilemma (in his usual unintentional way).

mbmg3282
August 25th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Short Corse Nationals in 2006 will be in Coral Springs, FL. They serve beer on tap at the tennis center which is located 20 feet from the pool.

I can request that they serve pale, opaque, somewhat tasteless beer.

aquageek
August 25th, 2005, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
If you only serve American beer you won't have to worry about any foreigners competing for the award. Geek has solved the dilemma (in his usual unintentional way).

You sure it was unintentional?

Peter Cruise
August 25th, 2005, 01:53 PM
Yup.

TheGoodSmith
August 25th, 2005, 03:36 PM
If beer is being served in close proximity to the actual meet at Coral Springs, Florida, I am a DEFINITELY betting Mr. Patten again in the 500 free.


John Smith

Frank Thompson
August 25th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Mr Goodsmith:

In your last two posts, you do provide reasons for a change. Right now with the entry booklets and information that is out about the meet at Stanford, the earliest changes that could be made would be at the next World Championships in 2008 and I don't know where those will be held. This stuff is a lot more complex than the super team discussions.

After reading what Mark Gill had to say, I forgot about Nancy Ridout and how as a FINA representative she could bring this up at the FINA meetings and see what the reactions are. They had meetings in Montreal last month and I don't know when the next ones are scheduled.

My suggestion to you is to write up a proposal for changes and give it to your LMSC rerepresentative on the International Committee and that is Peggy Buchannan. See what the USMS International Committee feels about your proposed changes. In fact Mark Gill is on that committee and maybe he can bring it up and make some progress regarding this. Otherwise, if this is not done it will be forgotten.

I think your points are valid except "we can kick some booty like no other country." That statement would have to be pulled. If you could get this on the agenda for the meeting that would be a start.

By the way I am looking forward to that rules change proposal from your LMSC about the eligibility of the National Records at the USAS convention.

knelson
August 25th, 2005, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Well if you have a National Record that a foreigner owns its not really an "American" record is it . Call it what it is.

So, to me, it seems like the simplest change would be to strike any mention of "National" records and simply call them USMS records.

michaelmoore
August 26th, 2005, 12:53 AM
A bunch of comments about what is being said here:

A swimmer swims for a club FINA HANDBOOK MGR 3 Individual entries shall only be accepted from person representing clubs. No swimmer or team may be desinated as rerpresting a country or Federation. A swimmer could swim for clubs of different federations, unless there are federation rules against it. Sometimes joining two different federations is so that one can swim in local/national swim meets of other counties. Some countries will only let swimmers of their country compete.

An invitation is a procedure so that a swimmer may get a visa. No club may issue an invitation, it can only be handled by that National office. You do not need an invitation to compete.

" Especially with Worlds bringing about 10,000 people into town!" I dont think we will get that many; maybe 6000 swimmers 8500 over all. But I would like to be surprised.

"This is a FINA sanctioned meet, so it's not like foreign swimmers will be able to break USMS records (unless they are USMS members, that is)." It is not a FINA sanctioned meet. It is a Pacific Masters Swimming sanctioned meet for United States Masters Swimming. (the main reason for sanctioning has to do with insurance). It is the XI FINA World Masters Championships. While one may set a USMS record, the organizing committee will fill out the proper paper work for whatever is needed for the swimmer, I do not think that the breaking of an USMS record will be announced, but that would be a decision of the FINA Masters Committee. I have asked the Committee to consider having meet records, but that will be up to the FINA Masters Committee and them maybe the FINA Bureau.

USMS records are under the Rules section of the Rule Book. This is a legislation year, any rules change would require (1) a vote by the Rules Committee that this is an emergency (2) a vote of 90% of the House of Delegates that this rule should pass. As USMS rules say a USMS record can only be set by an USMS registered swimmer, this would mean that we could have world records set at a USMS sanctioned meet, but they would not be USMS records. (that would be the same for relays, as records are set by teams and to be a member of a USMS team, you must be a member of USMS).

The last FINA Bureau meeting was in Montreal, the next one is in Shanghai in April. The FINA Masters Committee is meeting in Palo Alto in November, then will meet again in Palo Alto in August of 2006. There will be a FINA Masters Congress in Palo Alto or Stanford in August of 2006.


michael

Frank Thompson
August 26th, 2005, 02:29 PM
Thanks Michael for the thorough explanation. When I was on the FINA site I must have been reading the rules reguarding the other aquatic disciplines. Unfortunately I know where that is on there site but the FINA site is down for construction.

From what you are providing and what Paul Smith said of his Austrialian experiences, its different for every country about the eligibility, registration, and invitation to compete. I always thought that FINA had a rule for the member federations to extend privileges to compete to any FINA member in good standing. Again, I might be confused with the other rules for the other aquatic disciplines.

Its kinda of strange about the lack of consistency. Especially making someone register to swim even if they are a registered swimmer in good standing from another FINA member federation. And then excluding foreigners from competitions altogether.

I wonder if there is any chance they will ever adopt the rules of the other aquatic disciplines. This sounds very exclusive.