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Allen Stark
August 26th, 2005, 03:59 PM
From other threads it's seemed some people from small teams feel left out at Nationals because they don't have enough people for relays. How about not counting the relay points for the Small Team Awards and letting the small teams pool swimmers for relays. Pooled relays would not count for records or Top Ten but could win medals.

knelson
August 26th, 2005, 04:15 PM
Where the pick for "it's a moot point because there's no such thing as a small team award anymore."

This is the case, isn't it?

I don't know if I want to start a thread or poll specifically about it, but have the relays ever been at the beginning of the day or has there been any discussion about doing it that way? It seems to me relay participation would increase quite a bit if they weren't at the end of each day's competition--especially on Sunday.

EDIT: OK, I guess the main question deals with letting people from different teams swim together on relays. I have no problem with that.

TheGoodSmith
August 26th, 2005, 04:44 PM
Allen,

You can get rid of relay points..... I personally don't care either way...... but you're not going to solve the scoring imbalance or help small teams that much with your proposal.

Even if a small team has several elite high scoring individuals, they can't make up the ground in total points due to the vast number of entries that large teams like Rocky Mtn has. It's just not going to work. It may help a bit but not a lot.

May I suggest that smaller teams in common regional areas that are unsatisfied ban together at nationals for better relays. This is probably an easier solution.


John Smith

swimr4life
August 26th, 2005, 10:52 PM
That's what GAJA did and it works for us.

Karen Duggan
August 27th, 2005, 12:32 PM
I always wondered what would happen if you took the number of total points scored by a team and then divided them by the numbers of swimmers that actually swam? Wouldn't that truly show who the best team is?

I think if this were done you would have to bring back small, medium and large divisions because if, say, Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen were on a team by herself: she wins all 6 events and earns 54 points... all by herself she'd be the best "team" by average. :p

Just a thought.

Jeff Commings
August 27th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen is a team unto herself. I worship her.

aquageek
August 27th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Wouldn't that truly show who the best team is?


No, that shows the average points per swimmer on the team. It would also discourage teams from taking swimmers who didn't score.

knelson
August 27th, 2005, 03:48 PM
I agree with geek. With the current system a swimmer who ekes out a couple points is a contributor, if the scoring was points/swimmer that person becomes a liability.

Frank Thompson
August 27th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Geek and Kirk:

I agree with both your thoughts. I think of the term elitism if I didn't agree with you. The less accomplished swimmers are as much a part of the team as the big guns. It's a group working together. A real team atmosphere.

USMSarah
August 29th, 2005, 01:30 AM
I think it would be a great idea for small teams at Nationals... they don't need to be scored or be eligible for records. I come from a small team, and any one of us would jump at the opportunity to be involved!

Everyone would get a chance to swim another event, meet new people, have fun...

Isn't that what Masters swimming is all about?

:cool:

Edward The Head
August 29th, 2005, 11:09 AM
I always wondered why they don't allow this at meets. I know that when I was unattatched I would have liked to swim in some relays. I think they should allow relays with a mix of people just to have some fun. Though I don't think they should be getting records for them.

Matt S
August 29th, 2005, 01:13 PM
I voted yes for basically the same reasons the other voters stated. Why not let more people swim on relays? It is unlikely to affect the outcome, to the extent anyone cares about the outcome of the team competition.

However, I see the yes voters are the vocal minority on this question. I'd like to hear from those voting no.

Matt

Conniekat8
August 29th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Perhaps people could foprm a relay and swim it anyways, keeping in mind that later on it will be DQ'd, when it's parsed out that they don't belong to the same team.

Or, there could be an additional, exhibition event at nationals, freeform relays or what not, and let people team up whichever way they want and swim a relay that way.

I don't know if there's room for an extra event at nationals, and exhibition event at that, when meet hosts are often faces with having to bend over backwards to make reasonable timelines. I think it might be a very hard sell to the meet host and the championship comittee.

OTOH, just like some of our local meets have occasional non-scoring just for fun events, like 'Fun Fin relay", it could be fun. In this relay we let people wear fins and there's no 15m rule, so if they want to put on 4 foot fins and try to swim a whole 50 under water, they get a chance.

jim clemmons
August 29th, 2005, 03:27 PM
I think there would be less participation if the results didn't count.

One of the reasons this started was because people we're jumping teams (which I don't agree with fwiw) in order to put together a "better than all the others" team - which is fine, but I think it does the word "team" a disservice.

It might be fun occasionally to put a group together of non-teammates but after awhile, getting wet for "exhibition" sake, I think would get old. Especially if it's the fourth or fifth time you've gotten in the water to race that day.

I voted "no".

Jim

Paul Smith
August 29th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Jim,
One of the problems when we try to have these discussions is folks throw out unfounded comments that tend to incite people and in many cases simply are not factual.

On another thread i addressed this idea of "jumping ship" for "better than all the others" team......basically saying that I think your wrong. My belief is that people "recruit" more to bring friends and old teamates into our sport....and occasionly to go for ecords or championships.

Since you voted no and seem to think that this against your concept of "team" than I would as you to give us as many cases where this has happened and why it wasn't a "team" . Not trying to be harsh at all, but I think there's a real misconception about who and why people join teams other than their local one.

Allen Stark
August 29th, 2005, 09:27 PM
I'd like small teams to be able to pool swimmers for relays that would count for medals,just not for records.For some swimmers a relay may be their only chance for a medal.

Karen Duggan
August 30th, 2005, 12:41 AM
I think if you swim a race, relay or individual, it should count, for whatever records, medals, points, etc.

Paul, you assume that Jim (and me for that matter) agree that EVERYONE recruits these people for old home week, get them involved, etc. That is clearly NOT the case a lot of the time.

I voted no awhile ago- my reasons go back to the whole superteam vs. club idea (small size team or otherwise). On the one hand I think, "Too bad they don't have enough for a relay, they shouldn't be able to swim. They at least have individual events," and on the other hand I wonder, "How would this meet be different (the outcome) if THAT relay wasn't put together?"

I'm coming to the conclusion that, really, in the big scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. You don't see people actively protesting, withdrawing from meets... while it's fun to talk about, I don't think it's a big deal in the end. Someone mentioned USMS being inclusive, that's an important point. The more people that swim the better, it's about fun and competition and until the rules are to everyone's liking... that's not likely to happen.

Sorry if I'm rambling I'm going to bed- very sle


:p

Conniekat8
August 30th, 2005, 01:29 AM
Personally, I don't think bending rules so someone would get a medal is a good idea, or a fair one. For one, it lowers the value of the medal. Heck, may as well just make it a souvenir and let people buy one if they couldn't get one in competition.

Or, bending the rules so you could get a medal just might take the medal away from someone else who isn't complaining about playing by the rules.

You know, it takes time and effort to grow a team, takes enthusiasam on the part of the coach and the teammates to get people interested in their team, in swim meets and into coming to swim at nationals.
Getting a medal in a relay is a reflection of all of those efforts. It's not a mere random instance that certain clubs or teams have presentation in numbers, and others don't.

Perhaps instead of asking to change the rules of competition or accusing more succesful teams of recruiting and elitism or what not, one ought to be asking how do I help grow my team and promote masters swimming im my area, so I have better representation next year.

Paul Smith
August 30th, 2005, 11:01 AM
Karen......I don't like to deal in any "absolutes" (other than John's lack of willingness to chase down the 50 free LCM WR!) and I never ""assumed" anything but rather asked for consideration of a different point and clarification.

My postion was Jim's post did not touch on the other and what I beleive to be far more popular reason that people join teams outside their regions. If you don't agree with something thats fine, but I'd prefer to know more details as to why and if its based on facts?

If that vast majority of people "jumping ship" are actually doing so to be with friends vs. to break records and win championships would you still be against it? If it actually increases participation and gets people back into swmming (as Johns 11-12 year old teamates did) would you be against it?

jim clemmons
August 30th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Paul,

Sorry it took so long to reply.

I'm not against those instances where teams have come together for special occasions such as the DOC Team in '96 or the UCSB Team in '03. I think that's a great way to pull folks out of retirement - I'd hope the positive experience would assist them in continuing to swim thereafter.

What I am against (or just don't agree with) is when swimmers jump from team to team just to be a part of a faster relay team or to contribute to, or be associated with, a higher placing team. That swimmer, to me, has just become a swimming "hussy". This action does the definition of "team" disservice.

Now, it's also one thing when you're alone (or with a couple of others) out in Timbucktoo to associate with a club a thousand miles distant. If you're in a strong local program however, and just can't seem to get the numbers to meets for a significant amount of relay teams to swim with at major meets, your goal should be to work on that particular team trying to get the numbers up, not looking for other teams to "ply your wares" to.

Typing for me is sometimes a rather difficult manner for expressing my opinion - I'd rather discuss it verbally - but I hope I've made myself a little more understandable.

Jim

Paul Smith
August 30th, 2005, 02:10 PM
Jim,
Thanks for the clarification and as scary as it may be I agree with you! I think those instances where people do jump around a lot are rare (hopefully) and would prefer to see addressed individually rather than via some type of "rule" via USMS.

As a side note, I do speak from some experience! I was one of the original organizers of th UCSB reunion team but did not "jump ship" because I felt committed to the Colorado team that I had been organizing that year (Tempe...we brought about 100 swimmers). Needless to say I got a lot of grief from my colleg buddies (dont' say anything Shaf!).

Also, for the first couple of years when I got back into masters swimming my wife and I opted not to swim for RMM but stay with our "local" team (Vail Swimming). I got a lot of grief for that as well but only made the move when the local club pretty much bombed out!

knelson
August 30th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
Also, for the first couple of years when I got back into masters swimming my wife and I opted not to swim for RMM but stay with our "local" team (Vail Swimming). I got a lot of grief for that as well but only made the move when the local club pretty much bombed out!

Did you swim at the Vail Racquet Club? I stayed there a few years back and remember they had a pretty nice pool.

Sorry for the brief off-topic diversion--just curious.

jim clemmons
August 30th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Yeah Paul, I figured we were close in agreeing - just couldn't seem to put the right words together the first time around.

Jim

TheGoodSmith
August 30th, 2005, 03:43 PM
Jim,

I was (and to some degree still am) a team hussy. I started back swimming masters 5 years ago after a long break and didn't have a team to workout with due to conflicting work schedules and pool times. While living in Atlanta I jumped from Dallas Aquatic Masters at one nationals to Team TYR at another nationals and Rocky Mtn masters at the next nationals.

Big deal.... who cares...... seriously...... I did it to swim my old friends.... Bobby Patten at DAMM, Chris Cavanaugh and Geoff Gaberino at Team TYR and evil Paul with Rocky Mtn. masters. I work out by myself most of the time still today. If there is a chance to swim with Rich Saeger, Paul and Rowdy on another relay team for Worlds next year ...... I'd probably switch teams again and come back to Rocky Mtn. the next season.

This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Otherwise, I would be swimming unattached as I don't workout with any teams.


John Smith

jim clemmons
August 30th, 2005, 03:56 PM
John,

In your particular case, hussy may or may not be applicable.

Since you don't have a regular team to workout with, I think the Timbucktoo rule applies (even if you live in a major area) so perhaps hussy doesn't apply either.

Most swimmers working out alone (I feel) tend to lose interest if not in touch with a support group (i.e. team) so in a case similar to yours, I'd think changing teams would be a necessity since year to year the folks you team with are not always attending major meets (or even working out semi-regularly). You'd then lose touch with your support group, right?

If this is what keeps you "in the water", then so be it. I don't feel that to be a bad thing at all.

Jim

Paul Smith
August 30th, 2005, 04:14 PM
Jim, you have it ALL wrong.

See...none of us really like John.... .which shouldn't be a hard thing to understand given his posts hear... basically he's been kicked off each of those teams (hussy no....outcast yes, probably much like geek).

To the point of switching teams next year JS we're back to the whole....it's Worlds so we shouldn't have to "switch" teams to represent our country! Someone please explain that to FINA!

Now as for hussy...that would be Mr. Gill!

TheGoodSmith
August 30th, 2005, 04:18 PM
Jim,

You are correct. Finding a relay and group of old friends to swim with on a relay gives purpose to working out for me. I probably wouldn't swim otherwise. I look forward to seeing old faces and drinking beers with them at Masters Nationals each year.

But I kind of like the term "Hussy".... it fits me well.... :-) It's better than what Paul calls me.


John Smith

jim clemmons
August 30th, 2005, 04:29 PM
John/Paul or Paul/John:

Let's see if I've got this right.

Paul agrees with me on this viewpoint.

John agrees with me on this viewpoint.

But John and Paul don't agree with each other on the viewpoint. Or at minimum, they're "throwing" things at each other.

Hmmmm. What are we doing wrong here?

michaelmoore
August 31st, 2005, 09:50 AM
.it's Worlds so we shouldn't have to "switch" teams to represent our country! Someone please explain that to FINA!

If you are going to World Masters Championships, you swim for a team (and however your federation defines team - for some countries I would imagine there is just one team; kind of like swimming in Arizona). You cannot swim unattached.

Now for excellent swimmers like the Smith Bros to swim in the World Championships or Olympics, you swim for your federation, so you are no longer swimming for your team.

In either case you dont have to change teams.

I should also point out that FINA Rules are decided by the FINA Congress. Every country could send two representatives to the Congress and vote on the changes. Most of the work for changing the rules are made by the different technical commttees. Each committee has about 12 members; each member is from a different country. They propose the rule changes, although each federation could submit a rules change.

michael

Paul Smith
August 31st, 2005, 12:06 PM
Michael,
Few of us are familar with the inner workings of FINA so can you explain to me why they would not to compete as "countries" vs. "clubs"? Seems like a slam dunk to me, but then again I did work for a Fench company for 4 years so nothing should surprise me!

By the way......this has nothing at all to do with "excellant" swimmers or any hint of the "E" (elitism) word. We would like to see anyone from the US swimming in an international meet be ble to swim for their country.

Nancy Ridout
August 31st, 2005, 11:29 PM
This thread started out with the assumption that small teams couldn't field relays and that the swimmers felt left out. As the thread progressed, places, points, and medals became the focus.

I belong to what I'd call a small team (not defined here) and we field a relay or 2 at Nationals. We do it for pride and not for points or medals. We're small but we're proud to represent our team in the total scheme of things.

If the small team is represented by fewer than 4 swimmers, that is one way to define a small team but perhaps pooling swimmers and lengthening the meet by several heats is not in the best interests of everyone.

Some people would rather have some time to rest or enjoy a new area and don't mind not being on a relay taking place at 5 or 6 or 7pm. A relay represents a "team", as someone else has noted, and not just as another opportunity to swim a 50.

One thing that does bother me though, is that swimmers able to compete on relays do have an additional opportunity to swim a better 50 or set a record than someone who does not have that option. Some people actually don't swim the event because they can get a time by leading off on a relay.

My two cents.

Nancy

michaelmoore
September 1st, 2005, 01:17 AM
Few of us are familar with the inner workings of FINA so can you explain to me why they would not to compete as "countries" vs. "clubs"?

I dont know. I would guess that Masters has somewhat established itself before FINA came on the scene. Masters started about 1970 and the first FINA World Masters Championships was about 1984, so maybe they just went with the established order.

Masters is supposed to be about fun, fitness and competition, not about international competition between federations. If it was about competition between federations then you would have most likely have a fewer competitors. How would one qualify for a federation team? Could be a problem.

If they left it the current way, then have everyone eligible for a relay team, who is going to do the selection? I have seen Pacific Masters Coaches pulling their hair out making up relays teams, could you imagine trying to put together a team when you have 2000 swimmers to select from to put together dozens of teams - think age groups, gender and strokes and all the permutations to select a fast team.

Anyway just a guess.


michael

TheGoodSmith
September 1st, 2005, 12:51 PM
Then why do they bother listing the country of origin next to the name of the person owning each world record ?



John Smith

Frank Thompson
September 2nd, 2005, 05:35 PM
Mr. Goodsmith:

Go over to the FINA website at www.fina.org and link to the rules. You might find your answer there. Last week the site was down and now its up. There is a big difference between the Masters Swimming rules and the Swimming rules and appears to be a lot of inconstancy, especially with the eligibility of swimmers from federations and rules of representations and citizenship.

hornHead
September 2nd, 2005, 08:11 PM
FINA General Rules apply to ALL aquatic disciplines under FINA jursidiction, including Masters and should be followed a closely as posssible. Here is my spin on the General Rules as they relate to International Relations ( ie: foreign swimmers )

http://www.fina.org/rules/GR/rules_gr1.htm#4

GR 2.1 elevates USMS Nationals to International status. An exception would be USMS Nationals competition held in yards.

GR 2.2 is lacking in clarity as it only refers to clubs, but since clubs are a collection of individuals it should follow that individuals shall not be admitted by a Member while simultaneously being affiliated to another Member. In other words you have to give up your affiliation with one Member in order to become affiliated with another. Multiple affiliation is not permitted.

GR 2.3 is pretty clear. You have to actually live/reside in the country in order to be affiliated to the Member or apply to FINA under GR 2.7 for change of affiliation.

GR 2.4 is a non issued since in USMS we do not select or field a National Team, but if we did all the General Rules would come into play but we can't because of Master General Rule MGR 3.

GR 2.5 is also a non issue as it follows GR 2.4.

GR 2.6 is also a non issue as it follows GR 2.4.

GR 2.7 stipulates that you must apply to FINA and receive approval in order to change affiliation if such change does not fall within the parameters set out in the foregoing General Rules.

michaelmoore
September 3rd, 2005, 01:47 AM
I am not sure where this thread is going but here is my spin on the General Rules as it applies to the XI FINA World Masters Championships. Let me comment on hornhead's spin:

GR 2.2 is lacking in clarity as it only refers to clubs, but since clubs are a collection of individuals it should follow that individuals shall not be admitted by a Member while simultaneously being affiliated to another Member. In other words you have to give up your affiliation with one Member in order to become affiliated with another. Multiple affiliation is not permitted.


The Rule says "A Member shall not admit to its membership any club affiliated to another member." A member is a federation such as US Aquatic Sports. A club is a normal club, so what it says is that USMS (a member of USAS) shall not admit a club that is a member of Canadian Swimming.

There IS NO EXTENSION. If it is not in the rules it does not apply. You do not have to give up your affiliation with one Federation to become affiliated with another. Clubs would, but individuals do not.

GR 2.3 is pretty clear. You have to actually live/reside in the country in order to be affiliated to the Member or apply to FINA under GR 2.7 for change of affiliation.


The rule says A competitor of one Member joining a club of another Member and participating in the compeitions of the latter shall be regarded as coming with in the jurisdiction of the latter

So a competitor who is member of the Swiss Federation joins a club of the US Federation. At that point the competitor is under the jurisdiction of the US federation. The rule says nother about actually live/reside in the country in order to be affiliated.

Another example, you are a member of USMS and join the Peace Corps. You are in Lesotho and in order to swim in their meets you have to be a member of the Lesotho Swimming Association. When you swim in Masaru you are under the rules of the Lesotho Swimming Association, when the swimmer returns to the United States, the swimmer is under the rules of USMS if the competitor is swimming for a USMS club. The competitor could also swim for the Lesotho club.

GR 7 only applies to swimmers with sports nationalities, it does not apply to Masters swimmers. Please review MGR 3 Individual entries shall only be accepted from persons represnting clubs. No swimmer or team my be disignated as representing a country or Federation.

That is my view, but if anyone has specific questions, I will be meeting with the FINA Masters Committee in November to discuss many things affecting the World Championships.

Also if you think that this is incorrect, and want to file an protest a person belonging to dual federations at the World Championships, you have also include the equalivant of 100 Swiss Francs (about $81.00) with your protest. The matter would be decided by the FINA Masters Committee.

michael moore, president
Local Organizing Committee
XI FINA World Master Championships
Stanford, California

Paul Smith
September 3rd, 2005, 09:24 AM
I've had quite a number of conversatons about countries swimming against countries with USMS swimmers since the US was awarded the Worlds as well as some folks in Australia when we went to their Nationals this past March.

In general almost everyone I've spoken with did not know that FINA rules do not allow one to swim for thir respctive country and have to compete for their clubs. Also, almost 100% felt that a competition between countires at an international meet such as worlds made a lot of sense and would elevate the level of competition as well as media interest.

So I guess the bottom line is wether USMS and our general membership thinks this would be worth pursuing with FINA long term?

michaelmoore
September 3rd, 2005, 12:30 PM
Paul:

I am not sure where you want to go with this.

But let me first respond to a couple of things that you said. I have no idea how most countries Masters club system works. I do not know if all the Masters for some countries belong so the same club (like CMS) or if there are many clubs with in a country.

When I was in Riccione, it looked like Great Britain had many clubs - they had different clubs had different sweat suits. I also saw some countries like Peru, Brazil and Chile all wearing the same model sweat suit. I only offer that as there may be only one club in those countries.

If you wanted to have international competition by country for Masters how would that be run? each country sends a national team? or that you only have national relays teams? or do you have a national relay team and club relay teams. If you did that who would choose the national team? What about those who always swam with a club and would want to continue to swim for that club?

The XI FINA World Masters Championships is the first championships in a long time that has had more than mixed relays. Why don't we see how it goes before making other plans. (I am sure that CMS can field a host of very fast relays teams- and being chairman of Pacific I can only dream of putting together relays teams made of Pacific Masters Swimmers - I think it would be a dream team - but nightmare putting it together.).


michael

hornHead
September 3rd, 2005, 12:56 PM
Michael

Question for FINA Masters Committee.

Can a Masters competitor be affiliated with more than one Member federation at one time and if so, under what circumstances?

michaelmoore
September 3rd, 2005, 03:44 PM
There are people now who are affiliated with different federations. They meet the qualifications for joining both federations. I believe some federations require residency or citizenship. Some like ours, do not require either.

From an operational point of view, all the LOC is going to look for is a Master's card from a FINA federation.

But I will ask.

michael

Karen Duggan
September 3rd, 2005, 10:01 PM
Paul (I think!),

I wasn't trying to be pissy or anything... I do understand all of what you're saying and do agree on some points you make.

I just wish it was really easy for USMS to come up with some hard and fast rules, regulations, whatever you want to call 'em. Apparently, our language gets in the way time and time again. It seems USMS, and our own local Pacific Masters, paints itself into corners with too many rules, rules not worded correctly, etc. It's really quite frustrating.

For example(s), we can't even figure out an efficient way for people to swim the 800 AND the 1500! We call our end of the season meet a "championship" when it's far from it. There are no qualifying times, etc. While I do agree that masters should include as many as possible- I think some definitions need defining. This relay issue is just one of many things that needs to be defined.

Again, I certainly did not mean to come across "ickily" :)

mattson
September 4th, 2005, 07:58 AM
championship : n. 3. A competition or series of competitions held to determine a winner

We call it the National championship, that seems to be a fair description. A patch is given to the first place finishers, labeling them as a National Champion (or so I'm told :( :) ). Or you can think of it as a competition that involves the whole nation.

There may not be an efficient way to swim the 800 and the 1500, just the most efficient way that we can get. (Maybe in a 10 lane pool, keep two lanes off to the side for the extra distance events. Let them swim long distance while the rest of the meet is going on. Just mind the waves when people dive in!)

Paul Smith
September 4th, 2005, 09:30 AM
Michael,
Just to be clear, I'm not in any way suggesting that you ry to incorporate any of the things we've been discussing by next year but rather looking long term.

Some time back I think when we we're discussing NQT's several folks took issue with the "semantics" of a national championhisp vs. calling it a "festival". I'm completely OK with a inclusive....open....festival for all swimmers in USMS but do see that we could up the anty a bit for national and world designated meets.

To me when we host a "world" championship its just that and would be great to see if country vs. country. Otherwise I would suggest we call it the world "club" chmapionships, or world masters swimming festival. Granted their wold be lots of challenges as you've brought up but still think its fun to consider.

Lastly I do think that an oppuruntiy exists to more closely align oursleves with USS for those of us who come from a competition based background; things like QTs, seeding by time vs age, requiring us citenship fo US national records (and add open records) , etc. etc.

With limited resources for swimming the more we can "pool" them to help achieve growth, expansion of pools, etc. the better in my opinion.

jerry clark
September 4th, 2005, 04:07 PM
I think the quanity of swimmers from certain countries at World Masters would be a primary factor prohibiting FINA from pursuing such ideas as have been expressed. Most likely, the only way for countries to compete would be to have a restricted number of swimmers per event/gender/age group - similar to the Olympics - except for age groups. So if the FINA folks might someday approve a Masters Swimming Olympics, we in USMS would find ourselves having to conduct a trials meet with quite specific qualifying times governing the entries. That might bring out all the fast people. Jerry

michaelmoore
September 5th, 2005, 12:52 AM
To me when we host a "world" championship its just that and would be great to see if country vs. country. Otherwise I would suggest we call it the world "club" chmapionships, or world masters swimming festival. Granted their wold be lots of challenges as you've brought up but still think its fun to consider.

Why do you have to have a world championships that pits country against country? The original Olympics of the modern era had competitors of different countrys on the same team.

While we are the host country for the XI FINA World Masters Championships, I am chairman of the Organizing Committee. It is the FINA Masters Committee that is the management group that runs the championships.

If you have ideas about how to change the championships that happen every two years, you should contact Nancy Ridout who is a member of the FINA Masters Committee, it will be the committee or the FINA Congress that makes decisions about the naming of the championships.

On a side note, so you really think they are going to change the name from the World Championships to the World Masters fesitval? (Personally, I dont think that will happen and to think otherwise would be just kidding yourself.)


Lastly I do think that an oppuruntiy exists to more closely align oursleves with USS for those of us who come from a competition based background; things like QTs, seeding by time vs age, requiring us citenship fo US national records (and add open records) , etc. etc.


To get changes like changes in QT, seeding by time vs age and requiring citizenship for US national records are items that will require changes in the US Masters Swimming Rule book. Those changes can only be made by the USMS House of Delegates. You should get your LMSC to propose changes (or the Championship Committee could also make proposals for the change.)

regards

michael

Paul Smith
September 5th, 2005, 09:10 AM
Michael,
I'm not necessarilly advocating any of these changes, just bringing them up fo discussion. Changing the name of the wrold champs to me would be stupid, I was using it as an example of how different masters interpretation of "world" is than USS.....as it exists now it is a club championship.

I would love for Nancy to address some of these points that are being brought up by various folks in this forum. Not everyone can attend the convention, this would be a way to reach a ton of people.

Jerry, there are lots of possible scenarios....you don't have to hold a "trials" you could pick teams of our us nationals results. Guys (gals).....just bcause we have "always" done something a certain way doesn't mean it can be done differently or better! "Challenge the domiant paradigm" (a favorite bumper sticker).

Frank Thompson
September 13th, 2005, 05:14 PM
Tomorrow the USAS Convention starts. They have computers there and if I can get on one I will report back on some of the items discussed here. The International Committee should be interesting and hopefully some of the points brought up here will be discussed.

Paul Smith
September 20th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Anything come up about this at the convention?