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seltzer
September 19th, 2005, 01:50 PM
Given the new FINA/NCAA/ USA/USMS rule changes related to the breaststroke pullouts/turns have people out there figured out WHEN to introduce the now allowed dolphin kick for maximum advantage.

My only input, and not a very detailed one at that, is from daughter who is freshman at a DIV III swimming power. She told them they are introducing the dolphin during the pulldown phase "at about the point" when people were formerly DQ'd for illegal dolphin. She claimed it was "hard to explain", this by the way from an English major, and so I'm not taking this description at 100% of face value. I presume though she meant at the finish of the pull phase when the body can go into a natural dolphin.

What is the current practice?

BTW, I did notice that the Div III A times for the breaststroke events are significantly faster this year but the B times are just about unchanged. I guess they are worried that the new kick might result in much faster times.

Conniekat8
September 19th, 2005, 02:39 PM
you might need to know that FINA, USA-S and USMS Rules aren't always identical...

If you're interested in the latest USMS Rule changes that were passed just few days ago at the convention, you can find them here:
http://www.usms.org/admin/minutes/rules-2005-9-18-4.pdf

Jeff Commings
September 19th, 2005, 05:25 PM
Bob, where the formerly illegal dolphin kick took place was just at the end of the pullout, when the hands pressed down at the hips. It's the most powerful part of the pullout, and the part where the body tends to change from a slightly downward angle to a more neutral one.

I've been working on it since August, and that's where it seems to work best.

breastroker
September 19th, 2005, 09:59 PM
What the major cheaters in the world have been doing, and why the rule was changed, is:

Kitijama and others at both Olympics and the last Worlds push off in a nice streamline. At about 2-2.3 seconds the hands are starting to be pulled back. At the same time the heels are pulled up slightly to where they just are starting to break streamline.

When the hands are accelerating past the top of the head and face, the downwards dolphin kick occurs..

USA swimming has determined the ruling to fit Jeff's style, that being at the end of the pulldown.

But I don't think that will fly, it's not about us, but allowing Kitijama and the other cheats to continue their cheating style, at the beginning of the pull down.

Someone like Kurt Grote could have used the dolphin to change from his extreme downwards motion to his extreme upwards movement. He had the most distance I have seen, often coming up a full body length ahead of other breaststrokers.

seltzer
September 20th, 2005, 11:03 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by breastroker
[B]
USA swimming has determined the ruling to fit Jeff's style, that being at the end of the pulldown.

Wayne:

Based on my reading of the USMS rule, it doesn't specify when during the pulldown you may use the dolphin kick but just that after using it one then must follow with a "legal" breaststroke kick.

Am I reading this wrong or does the swimmer have the right to select when to introduce the downward dolpin?

breastroker
September 20th, 2005, 01:17 PM
The way I read the FINA rule there are sevaral ways to insert the dolphin kick

1- immediately after pushing off, before any downwards arm pull

2- At the start of the arm pull, like Kitajima and others

3- at the middle of the arm pull, we used to call this a pike:p

4- As the arms reach the hips

5- slightly after the end of the pulldown

6- After the arms have recovered forwards again, but before the breaststroke kick to the surface.

Fritz
September 26th, 2005, 08:20 PM
"101.2.3- Kick - After the start and after each turn, a single downward butterfly (dolphin) kick followed by a breaststroke kick is permitted while wholly submerged."

Couldn't you take the kick in the middle of the pool or even at the finish? I don't see how this wording says it has to be during the underwater phase of a turn. The middle of the pool is after the turn and the finish is after the turn.

breastroker
September 26th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Fritz,
What you describe would work,..........................if you can push off and go 20 yards underwater.


INTERPRETATION: The official interpretation for the changes to the breaststroke (101.2) is that during, or at the end of the arm pull-down of the first stroke after the start and after each turn, a single downward butterfly kick is allowed, but not required, followed by a breaststroke kick. During the pull-down, if a downward butterfly kick is taken, it must be followed by a breaststroke kick. It is not permissible to take only a downward butterfly kick without then taking a normal breaststroke kick. The downward butterfly kick is not permissible prior to the arm pull-down.

Conniekat8
September 26th, 2005, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Fritz
"101.2.3- Kick - After the start and after each turn, a single downward butterfly (dolphin) kick followed by a breaststroke kick is permitted while wholly submerged."

Couldn't you take the kick in the middle of the pool or even at the finish? I don't see how this wording says it has to be during the underwater phase of a turn. The middle of the pool is after the turn and the finish is after the turn.

Heh, Don't think that was the intent...
If they get too many arguments like yours they may have to do a housekeeping rule change to read "Immediately following the start"

Read the rest of the rule too, talking about where feet should point during the propulsive phase of the kick, and how your feet can't break the surface during the dolphin...

that makes it kind of hard to do mid way through the race... and I don't think it would be advantageous.

breastroker
September 26th, 2005, 09:03 PM
Good arguments Connie, you must have learned much from that coach of yours
:cool:

Fritz
September 26th, 2005, 09:53 PM
I don't think it was the intent either. Just reading what it says. The interpretation makes it clear.

I think the position of the feel has nothing to do with the dolphin kick. People will have their feet turned in during the dolphin kick. However, maybe we need an iterpretation for that as well.

We'll have to disagree about whether it's advantageous. I can see where a nice big dolphin kick at the finish might help and I think a skilled swimmer could figure out how to keep it under water.

At any rate, it's clear it has to be during the pullout.

seltzer
September 27th, 2005, 11:35 AM
The USA-S and FINA wording was not ideal. We were told at a USA-S officials clinic last weekend that USA-S will distribute revised wording to make it clear that the kick should be taken at the end of the pullout and followed by a breaststroke kick, as defined elsewhere.

Note that for USA swimming the new rule does not go into effect until January 1st. Coaches are teaching their swimmers the new kick right now and I sure hope that it doesn't result in upsurge in DQs between now and the end of the year.

Conniekat8
September 27th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by breastroker
Good arguments Connie, you must have learned much from that coach of yours
:cool:

As much as I talk, it's amazing I have time to listen, huh? ;)
He's not only a coach, he's an official too, and I pick his brain all the time.
Your typical curious cat.

Fritz:
If I remember what the rule said (from yesterday)
The feet need to point outwards during the propulsive phase of the kick. Wouldn't that make for one goofy looking dolphin kick?

Also, my coaches tell me that when you dive in too deep on the breaststroke (not at the pullout, but during normal stroke phase) you're wasting too much time going up and down, rather then forward.

Here's what I'm thinking, during a certain phase of the pulllout, your body is already in a position and depth to add a dolphin kick for the little extra umph, and benefit from it.

During the normal stroke cycle, I wonder if trying to get to that body position where thet little dolphin actually helps would take more effort (and slowdown) then it's worth. Break the rythm maybe? Just sounds very awkward. I could be wrong, as I'm not THE breaststroker.

Maybe one of our snazzy breaststrokers can try it, and tell us how it works. Wayne, isn't it about time you got back in the water? ;)

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 27th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Swiminfo has a really good explanation of the way the rule will be interpreted.

Allen Stark
September 27th, 2005, 05:11 PM
I've been playing with it and this is what seems best for me. To get your whole body into it begin to arch back at the hips slightly just before the pull down,then let a body wave go through your body at the same speed as your hands finishing with a very strongdownward kick as your hands finish.

knelson
September 27th, 2005, 06:39 PM
The thing in the wording that continues to confuse me is the term "downward butterfly kick." What the heck is a downward kick? And if you know what that is, what the heck would an upward kick be? There must be some reason for this working, but I haven't been able to figure it out.

A.K.
September 27th, 2005, 06:50 PM
Sound like just one uniform kick down.

Allen Stark
September 27th, 2005, 11:28 PM
As I understand it,for the purposes of judging,a downward dolphin kick is straightening your legs from a bent position pushing forward with the tops of your feet. It's the downward part thats important because until then it could be a breaststroke kick if you push down with the inside of your ankles instead.

breastroker
September 28th, 2005, 12:00 AM
As is said before, I expect FINA will use the Kitijama way to make legal what the cheaters have been doing.

Therefore I will continue to practice the dolphin at the start of the pull down.

I also believe that is the best way of utilizing this new rule.

Jeff Commings
September 28th, 2005, 12:59 AM
Kirk, it would be illegal to kick your feet upwards, then downwards. Let the kick happen with the wave motion of your body during the pullout, instead of keeping them rigid at the finish of the pull.

There might be many ways to make the kick effective, but I find that it gives you the best propulsion at the end of the pull.

And I too often forget to do the kick in workout. But I'm not worried if I forget in a race. In a 100 meter race I still have 98 other meters to compensate.

sibleyclan
September 28th, 2005, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by seltzer
The USA-S and FINA wording was not ideal. We were told at a USA-S officials clinic last weekend that USA-S will distribute revised wording to make it clear that the kick should be taken at the end of the pullout and followed by a breaststroke kick, as defined elsewhere.

Note that for USA swimming the new rule does not go into effect until January 1st. Coaches are teaching their swimmers the new kick right now and I sure hope that it doesn't result in upsurge in DQs between now and the end of the year.

According to this one the USA-S page: http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=95&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

the new rules take (took) effect September 21st. The pdf you can link to contains the wording and interpretation of the new rules and the cover letter says they "are effective September 21, 2005". I'll find out for sure this weekend as I'll be working a meet my daughters are swimming in.