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BillS
September 23rd, 2005, 06:00 PM
The discussion about the 200 free led me to post something I've been pondering of late.

(1) How many of you do not breathe on the first stroke out of the turn? And for those who don't, how long can you hold that? SC 100? 200? 1500? Indefinitely?

(2) How many dolphin kicks are you doing off the wall? Does that number increase, decrease, or stay the same as distance and speed change or as the race progresses?

Thanks!

scyfreestyler
September 23rd, 2005, 06:05 PM
I can't speak for the 200 distance but in 100's I will breathe immediately after every turn because I personally feel that the speed I lose hurts me less that becoming oxygen deprived less than half way through a race. As for dolphin kicks, I generally give two kicks off the wall at every turn which gets me well past the flags without losing valuable momentum.

Conniekat8
September 23rd, 2005, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by BillS

(1) How many of you do not breathe on the first stroke out of the turn? And for those who don't, how long can you hold that? SC 100? 200? 1500? Indefinitely?

I try not to breathe last stroke, or the first... basically 'inside the flags' is what my coach says we should push for.
Depends on how hard I work, I can do it throughout the race or not.
Sometimes the little glitches in thechnique that happen when you push harder coat you the time you gain by pushing harder.

my last 1650, where I shaved 4 min, I was able to not breathe first and last stroke, and dolphin kick after each turn, breathe on 3 most of the race, and feel strong throughout. I think I had one weaker lap around a 1000, then fired up again.
My best friend and my coach were both watching it, and said I had good turns, and was consistantly dolphin kicking off the walls.

When I finished the race I felt I had a solid race. I saw the time on the board, It didn;t register it was mine... Had no idea I dropped that much.

(2) How many dolphin kicks are you doing off the wall? Does that number increase, decrease, or stay the same as distance and speed change or as the race progresses?

Our coach teaches surfacing sooner on sprints, and staying under and dolphin kicking more in distance races.

Michael Heather
September 23rd, 2005, 10:19 PM
I presume that BillS is asking about race methods. I try to do the same thing in practice so it is not something else to think about in the race. This is of particular importance in the shorter races, since anything can slow you down.

I concentrate on the pushoff, so I am to the flags before dolphining 2 or 3 times, and in a perfect world, I would not breathe until having taken 2 strokes. This scenario all hangs on the practice of swimming hard into the wall before the turn, in order to develop the momentum that I will use for my pushoff.

Practice what you want to execute in your races, and you will be able to perform the routine over and over, just like Connie, hopefully with the same positive results.

Conniekat8
September 23rd, 2005, 10:42 PM
Well, a disclaimer to my 4 minutes, I'm still in the stage where it's possible to drop a lot.
I'm at around 24 min for the 1650, If my next drop is a minute, I'll be extatic.

Michael Heather
September 24th, 2005, 12:44 AM
Progress is still progress. It is to be congratulated for what it is, not making judgments about relative performances. There is a wide range of talent in USMS, and we should celebrate the fact that any of us are improving times or getting (back) into shape.

4 minutes drop in a 1650 is terrific, no matter where you started. And you have more to go, apparently. Bully! I am often jealous of those people who are achieving best times as adults, it must be very gratifying. My last PBT was in short course Nationals in 1992 (I was 38). I broke 1:00 for the 100 backstroke for the first time ever. I still remember it fondly. Unless I magically turn into breaststroker, it will probably be my last best time. *sigh*

Paul Smith
September 24th, 2005, 09:52 AM
It's a race dependent question again based on distance for me:

50: 3 dolfins and 3-4 strokes out of turn before 1st breathe
100: 3 dolfins and 2 stokes out
200: only dolfin the last 2-3 turns and breath first stoke up

- As Michael said......training for this every repeat is what helps establish the rythym........fun to do at altitude (not)!

breastroker
September 24th, 2005, 11:31 AM
Abra Kadabra ; Poof Michael, you are now a breaststroker:D :D :D
You are not bad at breast, you just have a butterfliers mentality.

I think the biggest improvement in freestyle in the last 20 years was the USA copying the Russians on dolphin kicks off the walls.

Even the 50 and 100 free most swimmers have switched to 2-3 dolphins, and Phelphs does anywhere from 4 to as much as 9 huge dolphins, depending on the race.

Peter Cruise
September 24th, 2005, 04:48 PM
Paul, you'd be training at altitude even at sea level.

Kevin in MD
September 26th, 2005, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Conniekat8
Originally posted by BillS
breathe on 3 most of the race,

Do you mean you were breathing every third stroke during the 1650?

BillS
September 27th, 2005, 12:12 PM
Thanks. I was feeling bad about breathing first stroke in the longer distances, so I'm glad to hear some of you do, too. For me, it seems like a tradeoff between the oxygen required for the dolphins and the loss of streamline in the breath. Right now, I feel like I gain more from dolphins than I lose by taking the breath. I'll keep working on it at practice.

Tough to break the first breath habit, though. My brain seems to get programmed to the amount of time it has between breaths, and any variation sends it into some kind of weird "We're Dying Here From Lack of Oxygen, You Twit, And Now You Will Be Severely Punished For Neglecting To Breathe When You Had The Chance" mode that can screw up the remainder of the length. I usually breathe on 3 unless sprinting; I'll try mixing it up a little and see if that helps.

Conniekat8
September 27th, 2005, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
Do you mean you were breathing every third stroke during the 1650?

Most of it, except for the last couple hundred where I usually speed up a tad, IF I have any extra energy left.

I always breathe on 3 at cruising speed. If I push it hard enough where I have to start breathing on 2 during the 1650, I know I'm pushing it too hard, and won't make it through the whole race.

I can make it through a 400 or 500 breathing on 2, but not through 800, 1500 or 1650. My cardio gives out shortly after the 500 if I go out that fast.

Usually I push it to where I'm really close to having to breathe on 2. Every few hundred I get to a point I have to breathe on 2 for a lap, that tells me I've pushed a tad too much.

If I'm on a third stroke, and still have air left to take the fourth one, it means I'm not pushing hard enough. I think it's sort of related to the heart rate.

Before I speed up or slow down, first I take check of my stroke... Is the technique falling apart, and I'm just working harder, or am I going too fast, so I either adjust the technique and get smoother, or I ease off a tad.
My splits on these races have always been pretty even, especially for a relative beginner.
It seems to work for me, probably because my cardio is usually the weak link.