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GoRedFoxes
October 3rd, 2005, 12:18 PM
I apologize if a similar thread has already been started. I did a quick search, and found nothing on it.

I submit, the new rule change is poorly written.

It is obvious, the new rule, in simplest terms, dolphin kick allowed during the pullout, was created because the motion created by a style of the pull phase made it hard, if not impossible, to detect an illegal downward kick, from above.

I put this loophole in the rule out, in hopes an official sees this, and ammends the rule before damage is done.

The loophole:
On the start and turns, I perform the dolphin kick before I start my pull (much like the start of a butterfly stroke). This definately propels me forward. Then, as I perform my pull, I can still 'sneak' in that illegal dolphin kick.

It would have been more appropriate if the rules were specific about when the dolphin kick could occur during the pullout. Something like, "...a single dolphin kick is allowed from when the hands separate to when the hands pass the waist..."

Just my 2 cents, and foiling those who thought they'd get an advantage.

Seagurl51
October 3rd, 2005, 12:28 PM
I just read the rule change again on the USA Swimming site, and it says that the kick is allowed but only if immediately followed by a breaststroke kick. That means that when your hands are on the way back out in front then you can fly kick. At least that's how I understood it.

GoRedFoxes
October 3rd, 2005, 12:51 PM
OK, although I dont see the word "immediately", I can see how it is implied that the dolphin kick is allowed sometime between the pull and the kick. It is implying that a pull may not follow the dolphin kick, rather the next motion (after the kick) must be the 'recovery' wich includes the breaststroke kick.

GoRedFoxes
October 3rd, 2005, 12:55 PM
I guess I jumped the gun. I just saw the "interpretation" section. Which fully describes exactly what I proposed to be illegal.

But hey, isn't 'interpretation' to be 'interpreted'? LOL.

breastroker
October 3rd, 2005, 03:03 PM
was created because the motion created by a style of the pull phase made it hard, if not impossible, to detect an illegal downward kick, from above.

Many many breaststrokers over the last 30 years have been disqualified for a dolphin kick, it is not that hard to see.

I demonstrated the new rule this week at a pool, everyone I talked to could clearly see when I put the dolphin kick into the pulldown.

I feel the interpretation is not the same as what international judges have been allowing.

GoRedFoxes
October 5th, 2005, 12:38 PM
Breastroker, the 'sneak' kick goes like this.

If you start your glide on a 30degree down bubble, then use your pull to change your angle of attack to 30degree up, that transition causes a natural 'whip' like motion with your feet actually moving downward. This motion is legal so long as the 'down' motion is not an intentional downward kick. Some have chosen to take advantage of this down motion and turn it into an intentional downward kick. If done at the perfect time, without bending the knees too much, intent cannot be determined from above the surface (where the officials stand). Trust me, breaststrokers have been getting away with this for years.

I will still stand behind my initial comment, the rule should have been more specific as to where the downward kick is allowed (such as during the pull phase). Although my timing of the legal downward kick has been put to rest, via the interpretation, I still submit, 2 dolphin kicks can still be performed.

As opposed to my first submission, let's say the swimmer uses the 'whip' technique to sneak in the first dolphin kick. Following which, while ones hands are at ones side, throw in a dolphin kick prior to the recovery phase. The official could not readily say you used your dolphin kick on the pull, as determined we have been getting away with this for years.

Jeff Commings
October 5th, 2005, 04:37 PM
It'll take a lot of work for people to learn to do two dolphin kicks on one pullout. I tried it once for kicks and it throws off your timing.

On the start, it's quite easy. Kitajima does it every time. As do many others who know that the splashing hides the kick.

jim clemmons
October 5th, 2005, 06:13 PM
I think they nail it with:

"Throughout the race the stroke cycle must be one arm stroke and one leg kick in that order" .

Since the single downward butterfly (dolphin) kick is followed by the whip kick, it happens after (or late during) the arm stroke. I think....

But, you can't kick dolphin prior to pulling (or starting to pull), that I'm pretty certain..



I put it in where it feels natural from doing it "illegally" (occasionally) during workouts just prior to the end of the pulldown.

sibleyclan
October 6th, 2005, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by jim clemmons
But, you can't kick dolphin prior to pulling (or starting to pull), that I'm pretty certain..

The USA Swimming interpretation specifically says "The downward butterfly kick is not permissible prior to the arm pull-down."

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 10th, 2005, 10:57 AM
There is a discussion about how rules are under a threat inthe eswimming electronic newsletter from Australia. It is short but interesting. This is a great source for what is happeningin Australia, along with the electronic newsletter from western Australia.

GoRedFoxes
October 18th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Isn't this Ironic. USASwimming is now back peddling on the Breaststroke Rule change.

Score: 1 Joe Bubel, 0 USA Swimming

LOL