View Full Version : How did YOU swim in Cleveland?

August 20th, 2002, 03:22 PM
Okay, poll time. For those who attended the LC Nationals at Cleveland, let us know how well you swam. Please rate your performance vs. your honest expectations for this meet. Anyone can submit their poll votes, and feel free to add comments if you want to.

I'll start out - my meet was okay. Freestyle events weren't so hot, but breast and IM events were as expected given the amount of training this year. No DQ's!!

August 20th, 2002, 03:44 PM
Great meet! I swam reasonably well, especially my first event (800 free). I was well pleased with all three of my backstroke events (especially the 200 back which I won). Most of my times were better or close to what I swam at FINA World's in New Zealand.

However, I know of at least 3 of my teammates (including me) who became sick by Monday with some sort of very nasty intestinal bug. Anyone else have this experience?


Ion Beza
August 20th, 2002, 06:19 PM
In my case I had had the slowest times in a meet since starting to compete in USMS in 1994:

the organization of the competition was good;

however, I came to Cleveland with my training disrupted four weeks ago, and in my races I was lame.

Aside from my racing, I enjoyed seeing big-time names of swimming like Gail Roper, Richard Abrahams, Laura Val, Maria Drueckhammer, Fritz Lehmann, Bill Specht, Tom McCabe, Andreas Seibt, Sion Brinn, Jim McConica, Jack Groselle and talented competitors like Jim Thornton, Ian Smith, Jeni Buys, Jim Matysek, Karlene Trebesiner, Matt Shirley, Doug Strong, Trish Seubert, Don Hubbard, Melissa Varlas, Bill Volckening, Caroline Stein, Kelly Parker, Tony Pearce:
the exposure to their mind, is worthy to me.

jim thornton
August 21st, 2002, 01:04 PM
I would also like to say it was great to meet Ion at this meet, along with many of the names on his list, from Ian Smith and Rich Abrahams, to the legendary Laura Val and Bill V. This forum has been a tremendous resource for me over the past few years--motivating, inspiring, educational, etc.--and I truly valued getting to meet face to face with many of the frequent correspondents.

In terms of my own performance in Cleveland, I got to swim as a so-called FINA Baby--i.e., chronologically 49, but officially 50 (because my birthday in September comes before Dec. 31.) Realistically speaking, this was my first real chance to ever make a USMS Top 10 time, so that was definitely my goal.

I'd swum at Y Nationals in Ft. Lauderdale earlier this spring, and done a lifetime best in the 200 yard free. I hoped to do a quasi- equivalent time in meters. When you use the conversion calculator at Swiminfo.com, my 200 m was about a second or so off my yards time, which was a bit disappointing in a way. But I had only been in a 50 meter pool once since the previous summer, and total of three times since Long Course Nationals in Baltimore. The different length is a bit daunting, especially if you're not familiar with it.

Anyhow, time will tell about the Top 10s; I am keeping my fingers crossed till the final tally is computed this December. Then I will know whether or not this was a "good as hoped" meet for me, or a "fantastic, better than expected" experience in Cleveland.

Ion Beza
August 21st, 2002, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by jim thornton

This forum has been a tremendous resource for me over the past few years--motivating, inspiring, educational, etc.--


We are not operating in a vacuum.
I can be contacted as a friend.

Frank Thompson
August 21st, 2002, 08:59 PM
I had a good meet in some events and lower than expectations in other events. The first day I swam the 800 Free in 10:02.00 which was the fastest time I have had in 4 years. The most disappointing event for me was the 400 Free because my split going out in the 800 was just as fast or faster with flip turn touch. I find that maybe the shorter the race the more we lose feel for our stroke in distance swimming. I got to see James Thorton and competed against him for the first time in the new age group 50 -54. I think he swam really well and his splits for his races were right on except for the 100, his drop off in that was about 3.3 seconds.

The Michigan Masters team that I organize and coach for this meet was the highest scoring visting team in all 3 categories and that was a success for all because we set out to do that. With every good team there are some stars on that team and our star was definitely Dan Stephenson. In fact he was one of stars of the meet. In the 45 - 49 age group he set 2 National/World Records in his age group and just missing the 200 IM record by .15 and being within 2 seconds of the 400 IM record. He got 4 first places and 1 second place. A lot people thought the 200 Free race he had was one of the most exciting of the meet.

The only disappointment was I wanted to see Paul Carter swim in this meet and that did not happen. It would have been interesting to see him swim against Jack Grosselle and Dan Stephenson in the 200 Free. From what I understand from Swim Info he is swimming faster times than when he competeted for the University of Tennessee's 1978 NCAA championship team.

Bo Martin
August 22nd, 2002, 04:38 PM
Well, this was my 1st Nationals ever. It was great!
I just started swimming again last november after a
23 year layoff. I never expected to do as well as I did.
4th in 200 back and 6th in the 100. It was neat to see
so many fantastic swimmers. It just gives me incentive
to keep swimming.


August 22nd, 2002, 05:27 PM
I thought the swim meet was well run and I enjoyed touring around Clevland as I had never been to the city.

However, I was disappointed with the 6th event being dropped. When people invest signficant amount of time and money in travelling to the meet (I came from Western Canada and I met many people from the west coast of the US), they should be able to swim the six events. I think that there are a number of things the organizing committees could do to keep the six events. These include:

1) Reduce or eliminate the number of events swimmers can swim without a qualifying time.
2) Have all events 400m and up sorted by time only.
3) Do not give the option of one person per lane during the 800/1500m races - only offer them as two per lane events.
4) Consider sorting all events by time. I noticed a number of heats where the lanes were not full.
5) Run the events as a double ended meet - I have been to many meets where the heat will start at the opposite end of the pool when the heat in the water is still swimming. (However, the negative to this option is that the organizers will need twice as many officials.)

All said, I did have a great time at the meet and I am considering attending future US Nationals:)

Matt S
August 23rd, 2002, 02:58 PM

I like most of your ideas, except the first one. Trust me, you do not want to reopen the food fight over whether NQT's should be required to compete at Nationals. One other idea is to share the pain of a dropped event among everyone, not just the people who enter 6 events. (That does not really help you, but it would assure you that you are not alone.) So, those with no NQT's and 3 events entered would lose their "3rd" event, one NQT and four would lose the "4th" event, and two NQT's and five would lose the "5th" event. (If you have no, 1, 2, 3 or more NQT's but you sign up for no more than 2,3,4 or 5 events, respectively, you would not lose your last event. That will take away the incentive to enter an event you do not really want to swim, but are using it to protect the others.)


Paul Smith
August 25th, 2002, 09:32 AM
Come on Matt, your no fun! The NQT debate was legendary! I can't recall, but my guess is that Ion started it as he has been on the leading edge of keeping this forum interesting.

Here's my own two cents:
- Extend the meet to a five day format splitting out the 800/1500 so the "D" folks can swim both.

- Continue with Deck Entry, however it should be modified so that check in closes either the night before or after warm ups the morning of, then print a fixed heat sheet for that day.

My guess is that we'll see 3000+ swimmers in Tempe, most likely the biggest USMS Nationals ever. Fortunately the ASU complex is capable of supporting larger numbers of swimmers than someplace like Hawaii, and Mark Gill is probably one of the more organized and effiecient meet organizers out there so things move along well.

PS: Get ready for a whole new group of 40+ guys "coming out", rumor has it some of the Team Tyr guys are getting some interest from Robin Leamy and several other stand outs from the early 80s!

Matt S
August 25th, 2002, 10:11 PM

I was beginning to wonder if you had been taken hostage by wandering cajun chefs branishing containers of cayenne powder. Good to see you back in the jungle again.

I'm OK with extending the meet a day, although for LC Nationals, I don't see that as necessary just yet. With deck seeding and the much despised but necessary 6th event rule, we seem to be finishing at reasonable hours. However, if Nationals continue to grow and gets really big, maybe we can take that idea one step farther, and go to the "international" format of a 7 day meet, plus an extra day for an open water swim. I did that once, at 99 Pan-Pacs, and absolutely LOVED it. I swam 7 individual events and the open water. One event per day, then I rested up for the next event. Not even jet lag kept me from have a strong performance in nearly all events.

In terms of individual swimming, I had a good meet, but not a great meet. Both of my freestyle events were my 2nd best Masters swims ever in those events;one was substantially faster than last year, the other a little slower. My 200 fly was a ... learning experience. (Rule #1: NEVER swim another event the same day before the 200 fly. Rule #2: repeat Rule #1.) However, after all the yoga and tearing my stroke apart and rebuilding it, I had greedily hoped for more. (Sigh, I guess if I want to swim like when I was in college, losing those 40 or so pounds I have put on since college might be a place to start [DUH!!]) Personally, the highlight of the whole meet was swimming on a relay team with my father and my sister. We worked hard to be the slowest mixed free relay in the meet, and we were NOT to be denied!

And while we are on not so great and great performances, did anyone catch John Feinstein's 50 fly? Background note: John is a professional sports columnist and author, and he has read some of his work on NPR. The one piece I remember most is his soliloquy on his ability to finish 11th at Nationals. (After my 200 fly, I can relate.) Well, John went a BLAZING 28.81, over a second faster than his seeded time, and finished 3rd! Great swim John!! Will we be hearing about this one on NPR?

Anyway, oh Tallness, please DON'T tell me about 40-44 getting any tougher than it already is. It distracts me from focusing on what I can accomplish, regardless of how many studs in the same race have finished, warmed-down, and showered before I hit the touch pads. BTW, I have twice asked you for your thoughts about yoga and swimming. Are you going to make me wait for your book to come out, and pay for it, before I hear your thoughts?

Hope you can make it to next year's LCN's. My family was already plotting that campaign before our second swim. Who knows, maybe we can actually figure out how to do a relay exchange without getting DQ'ed, or someone losing their goggles, and not be the slowest relay in the meet? Maybe I can convince my mother, wife, or other sister into signing-up, and we can have a complete relay team? Maybe I can actually convince Jim to have his micro-brew social during a time when I can actually attend!


August 27th, 2002, 12:53 AM
I agree with Paul. I think that Tempe is going to be a big meet. California will come out in full force and states like Texas will go also. Probably all the top swimmers in Arizona will be there. The only drawback may be some of those from back east. They might decide to go to Long Course in New Jersey. That's true that the times are getting faster. I think that the 100 yard breastroke about 10 years ago cut off for top ten in women for 45 to 49 was 1:20 and now its 1:17. In two years its probably going to be 1:15 and five years down to 1:12. Its just that Masters attracts more male swimmers and in the 40's age groups there are a lot of swimmers to compete against.

Matt S
August 27th, 2002, 04:12 PM
Big Cyn-cyn,

Remember, we have changed the formula for NQT's. As recently as 2000, we went with the 10th place time on last year's Top Ten, plus 10%. That meant that if fewer folks swam the event that year, and it was a less populace age group, the 10th place time could be less fast than "normal" and the NQT for that year would be slower than normal. The 1500 NQT for 40-44 men in 2000 was a very mortal 22:20 something.

After that year, we have gone to the average of the last 3 years' 10th place times. That will smooth out the "slow" years.

So, before you conclude the competition is faster, ask if the earlier NQT was in line with other times for that era, or was it "slow".


Paul Smith
August 27th, 2002, 04:17 PM
All right Matt, that's enough grief out of you! TWICE I've sent a very detailed and in my own humble opinion quite extraordinary reply to your questions about Yoga & swimming, seems someone out there got a little freaked out by my message and never gave it to you!

Actually I figured you were being like Phil who I've written to a couple of times and basically just blows me off (or makes fun of my spelling errors).

PS: Ion, no need to defend Cynthia because I cleared my post with her via email. Although now I'm begining to think that maybe Emmett is Ion?!

August 27th, 2002, 04:25 PM
"Although now I'm begining to think that maybe Emmett is Ion?!"

Oh, puhleeeeeease! Where did that come from?

Philip Arcuni
August 27th, 2002, 05:20 PM
Actually, oh Tallness (thanks Matt, its great!) it was a miscommunication between me and my wife. She was going to respond by saying (with some justification) that if Cynthia had some misspellings, that I was definitely her alias! But she didn't, despite speaking truth, and you got no response:(

Actually and also, I am going through a significant re-evaluation of my physical self, and I find it very difficult to deal with such trivialities. You and Breastroker may be interested, so look for my post in another thread; it should be coming soon.

Ian Smith
August 28th, 2002, 08:32 AM
It seems there are many Jeckels Hyde-ing in this forum.

Will the real Ion/Cinc310/Phil/Paul/Matt/Emmett please stand up?

BTW Paul, (if that's your real name - you expect us to believe 'Smith' on top of that?) it was a bit unfair to accuse Emmett of being Ion (or was it the other way around?) This is nearly as bad as confusing Emmett with Rainman or Aquageek - which are surely incarnations of some of the above named suspects.

To stick to the topic, I think Phil was actually in Cleveland swimming under an alias for his own protection. How did you swim, Phil, now you are safely back at home with new eyes?

Paul Smith
August 28th, 2002, 09:06 AM
Welcome back Ian! By the way no accusations (or insults) intended for Emmett/Ion just checking to see who was paying attention (they both share quite the confidence in their convictions however!)! You did "nail" me on the Smith thing, I'll fill you in on the whole story sometime over a beer.

Speaking of beer, how about a follow up in Tempe this October? ASU is hosting a SCM meet the 25-27?

Phil Arcuni
August 28th, 2002, 11:46 AM
You're a sharp guy, Ian, for a Smith.

I swam in the 60-64 age group (I said I have wrinkles). It was a pretty good meet. In the 50 free I did a 27.80, in the 100 free I did a 1:03.10, and in the 50 fly I did a 30.15.

How did you do?

Phil M.
August 28th, 2002, 12:42 PM
So is Phil a Smith or is Ian an Arcuni? Regarless, those are pretty good times for 60-64. They give this 44 year old something to work towards.

Ian Smith
August 28th, 2002, 01:19 PM
OK times for an old fogy (I nearly said something else but in deference to your age, stuck to 'fogy') One question: How could you let that young 60 year old whipper-snapper out-touch you in the fly and take the world record? My impression was that you were faster when you wore glasses.

For myself, I was not really in Cleveland. I found a young west-coast swimmer on e-Bay to swim for me. He has wrinkles, so no one could tell the difference.

One of the e-Bay disclaimers was that good times were not guaranteed. And if you look at the results, that is what you will find.

Paul, do you think Phil is taking some kind of shot at us Smiths? If so, take care of him at the next meet. Unfortunately I will be working and won't be at the ASU in October; we'll get to that beer sometime…….

August 29th, 2002, 01:56 AM
Good thing one of my more happy customers told me about this thread happening BEHIND MY BACK!

Ian Smith (like, Smith goes to Cleveland? puh lease!) you are SO ungrateful, considering what I did for you! Is it MY fault that I misjudged the wall, because the cross on the bottom was so unusually clear? I smashed my hand so hard in the gutter that my fingers STILL hurt!

Its a good thing for YOU that my lawyer just had LASIK, and can't read the fine print of that contract, because I think you are LIABLE!

If you weren't so CHEAP I could have swum another two events for you - you would have been pretty happy, I'm sure. But, as they say, you get what you PAY for! I mean, that was a long flight!

Next time I'll check the references. I know one thing, never trust one of you guys with that FUNKY LEAF avatar:mad:

And lay off Phil, he's been a good customer!

August 29th, 2002, 02:01 AM
Oh, Mr. Muter -

Thanks for that little gift. The missus really appreciated it; it helps make the trip a LITTLE worth while!

Don't forget, you can always find me on EBAY!

Ian Smith
August 29th, 2002, 06:25 PM
Dear SwimR4Rent,
So much whining! Look, e-Bay is offering “WinR4Sure” for next season and I plan to bid. He’s faster than you and I should get him for cheap (as long as Phil is not bidding against me) He’s even trained by the famous Dr. Piltdown and will be in top shape the beginning of April.

Sorry but losers R out. I did not pay for a second in the fly.

Your esteemed ex-client.

PS: If Phil gives up on you too, someone in the 70-74 may be able to use you, if your wrinkles are up to it. (The 65-69 is too tough, Farrell is in it)

August 29th, 2002, 10:49 PM
This fellow DOESN'T KNOW wrinkles! While men and women with hardly any clothes on are NOT the most observant people in the world (at least for faces!) I had to look SOMETHING like Mr. Smith! (there is a LOT more to this swimmer-for-hire gig than JUST workouts!)

Did you see Tom Cruise in Minority Report? THAT is what I had to do!

And whos complaining? A world record is NOT guaranteed!

If you think you can get a better DEAL from WinR4Sure you will have to THINK again! We belong to the United Swimming Workers chapter of the AFL-CIO! It is the OLDEST sports union in the country! We taught Don Fehr EVERYTHING he knows!


April 22nd, 2003, 11:11 AM
Any idea why this thread keeps showing up in my list as recently updated, when the last post was this past August?

April 22nd, 2003, 11:35 AM
Any idea why this thread keeps showing up in my list as recently updated, when the last post was this past August?
Every time someone votes on a poll, the thread is bumped up in the listing based on the time of their vote, even though they didn't post a reply to the thread. This is actually a setting in the forum software - I could (and used to) have it ignore votes for the thread timing. The problem with that setting is that polls generally don't get a lot of posts and without bumping their time as a result of votes, the poll would quickly slip down in the thread listing and get lost.

August 18th, 2003, 02:00 PM
It was my first LC Nationals, and I swam my fastest times in several events -- getting PRs in all three breaststroke events, as well as in my 50 free relay lead-off split. Of course, I'd wanted to go even faster, but in retrospect I'm very pleased to have swum my fastest (even if it wasn't as fast as I'd swum my races in my head)!

Overall, a great meet with great competition.