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free142
October 17th, 2005, 10:49 AM
I suspect many people (myself included) view the arm
recovery in freestyle as time to give the recovering arm
muscles a little rest.

But consider the possible advantages of working the recovery
a bit harder. (This is at speeds less than sprinting)

(a) The recovering arm could be back in streamline sooner
so less form drag.
(b) The recovering arm will be more free of bubbles
when beginning the catch,
(c) The recovered arm can begin to catch as soon as
the pushing arm leaves the water.
(d) The energy cost of a fast recovery isn't that high.
The recovering arm moves through air not dense water.
(e) Front quadrant swimming is still achieved without introducing
any delay in the pulling arm i.e. you are not waiting
for the recovering arm to "catch-up" before staring the
pull.

Any Comments?!?

scyfreestyler
October 17th, 2005, 01:14 PM
I think that the speed of your recovery should be directly proportional to your stroke turnover rate. As you increase your speed/stroke turnover your recovery will automatically adjust.

knelson
October 17th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by free142
Any Comments?!?

Yes. I don't understand your A or B. Please clarify what you mean by these.

free142
October 17th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by 330man
I think that the speed of your recovery should be directly proportional to your stroke turnover rate. As you increase your speed/stroke turnover your recovery will automatically adjust.

The point that I was trying to make was that at a given
stroke rate the speed of the above water recovery could be increased, the underwater propulsive part of the stroke would take the same time. The phase of the stroke that would see a time increase is the underwater reach foward or stretch of the recovering arm before the start of the next stroke.


Yes. I don't understand your A or B. Please clarify what you mean by these.

Sorry I think I could have phased A and B better, here
is what I'm trying to say:
Compare two arm recoveries, one slow, one fast.
Assume the underwater part of the stroke takes
the same time. In the fast recovery the recovering arm
can be returned to the water and placed in a
streamlined position for longer than with a slower easier
recovery. Placing the arm in a streamlined position for
longer has the benefits of (a) reducing form drag for longer.
(b) bubbles trapped by the hand entering the water
have more time to escape, leading to a stronger pull.

geochuck
October 17th, 2005, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by free142


Any Comments?!?
I think we doth try to complicate the arm movement, 40 years ago it was suggested to go directly to the catch and not extend the arm in front. Which would certanly pick up the speed of the stroke. It makes the stroke count go up and instead of going 60 strokes a minute the swimmers could go 85 strokes a minute, and the arms did not get tired with the high reves.

To me to pick up reves it is only necessary to roll your shoulders faster.

scyfreestyler
October 17th, 2005, 02:35 PM
Have you attempted to implement this change in your stroke? It sounds to me like it would create a significant imbalance in your overall swimming. To me, body rotation is linked to recovery and the pull. Accelerating only one of these motions will affect the other two in ways that I am unsure of, although I predict the results will be less than stellar.

geochuck
October 17th, 2005, 02:42 PM
Yes I did do it but it was to rest the arms and take the reves up but was combined with the direct to catch, hand entered slightly above the head and directly to the catch. I swam past other swimmers and there coaches wondered how I was able to turnover so fast at the 20 mile mark on a 28 mile race. Buck Dawson http://www.ishof.org/86wdawson.html said I went by his swimmer doing 85 strokes a minute.

scyfreestyler
October 17th, 2005, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Yes I did do it but it was to rest the arms and take the reves up but was combined with the direct to catch hand entered slightly above the head and directly to the catch. I swam past other swimmers and there coaches wondered how I was able to turnover so fast at the 20 mile mark on a 28 mile race. Buck Dawson said I went by his swimmer doing 85 strokes a minute. I can see what you are talking about here but the original poster is suggesting that the stroke rate remain the same. Only the recovery would be accelerated in his theoretical stroke modification. The stroke you are reffering to is actually quite common in sprinters, no?

knelson
October 17th, 2005, 02:53 PM
It seems like what you are describing is pretty standard FQS. Maybe I'm still not getting it, but to me it seems like any increase in recovery speed will actually increase the "catch-up" delay because your pulling speed is fixed. In other words, if the pull and recovery took exactly the same amount of time there would be no delay, and as the recovery becomes shorter relative to the pull the catch-up delay increases.

I don't know about the reduction in trapped air at the catch. It seems like when I speed up my turnover (and, thus, my recovery speed) I'm trapping more air.

geochuck
October 17th, 2005, 02:53 PM
If your arm moves faster above the water the energy is actually transferred to the arm underwater which makes the psi increase. http://www.ifkb.nl/B4/propellingeff.html

knelson
October 17th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Interesting link, George, but it doesn't really seem to address what you said. What I get out of it is that we propel ourselves in the water by applying a force against the water. To swim faster you need to maximize the force against the water while transferring as little kinetic energy to the water as possible since moving the water backward is "wasted energy." In swimmers or coaches terminology this would mean don't let your hand "slip" during the pull.

geochuck
October 17th, 2005, 04:00 PM
It is that your body moves faster through the water with more pressure at he catch but the hand does not move through the water at all, it is stationary (hold that imaginary wall) at about 25 pounds pressure per sqare inc. which is the limit before slippage, most swimmers only produce about 20 psi which means they will never achieve top speed. Don't get me wrong my stroke is long, I front load, and I stretch out as far as I can, I even front quadrant swim. Very light pressure til I get to the catch then max it to the finish. I do not cocentrate on anything to increase speed but think roll the shoulders faster and I swim faster.

The direct to the catch was for me a resting stroke.

knelson
October 17th, 2005, 04:43 PM
So are you saying by recovering faster the faster hand speed translates into more pressure on the hand when you begin the catch?

geochuck
October 17th, 2005, 04:48 PM
It is what I discribe as fulcrum action, when I teach. The recovery arm transfers power to the catch hand. But I am sure most every one will disagree.

scyfreestyler
October 17th, 2005, 05:00 PM
I think the original idea was most similar to the old military saying, 'hurry up and wait'.

Get your recovering arm out in front so it can sit there a little bit longer. Seems about as fruitful as speeding to the next red light in town. You burn more fuel but you don't get to where you are going any quicker.

geochuck
October 17th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by 330man
I think the original idea was most similar to the old military saying, 'hurry up and wait'.

Get your recovering arm out in front so it can sit there a little bit longer. Seems about as fruitful as speeding to the next red light in town. You burn more fuel but you don't get to where you are going any quicker. That is exactly how the Japnese swimmers swam in the 1956 Olympics that hand was held in front until the other hand started the recovery stage, winner of the 1500m was Japanese and that is how he swam.

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 18th, 2005, 11:10 AM
HOw would you deal with the rotation of your body? The underwater hand would still require the same rotaion but the recovering arm would be turning quicker, and therefore, the shoulders woudl get out of sequence.

geochuck
October 18th, 2005, 11:17 AM
We are not windmilling at any time just because the arm above is moving fast the arm underwater has to contend with resistance.

strong440
October 18th, 2005, 09:31 PM
Quoting free142 from Ireland, "...view the arm recovery in freestyle as time to give the recovering arm muscles a little rest."

A coupla thoughts about these introductory words about the arm in recovery. As for giving the recovering muscles "a little rest", it has always been my impression that this is achieved by employing a "ballistic" recovery. That is, the entire effort is employed at the position of rearward extension, hurling the hand and arm forward as if throwing a ball, and so being completely relaxed at the same time. Anything other than "ballistic" seems to me to require an effort to hold back on the muscles that would rather be free.

Otherwise, this "cycling" has the stroking arm working hard as it works against the resistance of the water, while the recovering arm is being held back with some effort through the "nonresisting" air as it is being extended. Thus, the "energy cost of a fast recovery" would be less rather than more by a significant amout.

And what better time to throw in the thought that when the hand has a thumb-first entry, in swimmers jargon, the elbow is already a "high elbow", and, thus, no more thought need be given to the "dreaded dropped elbow syndrome".