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View Full Version : aerobic sets which makes sprinters puny and weak



LindsayNB
October 28th, 2005, 06:05 PM
In another thread (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=50727#post50727) the inimitable Ande posted:

STOP swimming aerobic sets which makes sprinters puny and weak
Now you tell me! I can't wait to show this to my coach...;)

scyfreestyler
October 28th, 2005, 08:27 PM
How does aerobic work make somebody puny? Do bodbuilders lift anaerobically? My guess would be no. To build muscle you first need to break it down, atrophy/hypertrophy, but I would tend to disagree about aerobic sets making one puny.

LindsayNB
October 28th, 2005, 09:46 PM
Unless I'm really mixed up I think body builders do lift anaerobically. Aerobic being sets where you can operate off oxygen without building up lactic acid and stuff, nonaerobic being working at an intensity where aerobic metabolism is not enough and lactic acid starts to build up?

mattson
October 29th, 2005, 09:18 AM
Hulk hate puny and weak sprinters. Hulk smash aerobic sets! :D

scyfreestyler
October 29th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Anaerobic exercise is when there is insufficient oxygen to produce ATP moleucles so the system resorts to fermentation. Fermentation also produces ATP but only a fraction of the amount produced by cellular respiration. 32 vs. 2 I think.

ande
October 31st, 2005, 12:11 PM
you would be totally shocked at how little training you need to do to be well prepared for a 50

we become what we do

the 50 is all about explosiveness, technique, and correct splitting

sprinters need to be lean and powerful
sprinters need to be very fast kickers both flutter and dolphin

In the 50 you step up on the block totally fresh
then swim down and back as fast as possible

to best prepare for the 50 you don't need to be doing
10 x 200's on 2:20

Sprinters need to perfect their form
and work on 12.5 speed, 25 speed 50 speed and
correctly splitting

you need a great start excellent turns and a terrific touch

you need to get plenty of rest and sometimes swim very fast in practice

Strength training is critical

In fact one of these years I'll dedicate a season to this type of training and you can see what results it produces

ande

Jeff Commings
October 31st, 2005, 01:54 PM
I totally agree that sprinters shouldn't do so much aerobic sets ... after a certain point.

At the beginning of a season, everyone should be working on getting back into shape and working on stroke technique. Unfortunately, masters swim teams usually have more swimmers not doing the whole shave-taper thing, so the workouts tend to rarely change.

Let's say you're getting ready for spring nationals. Tough anaerobic training should start in December or January and run for about three months, with a good amount of aerobic training to allow muscles to recover. I'm looking forward to sets with lots of rest, though I've been on three masters teams and none of them focus a lot on true anaerobic swimming. Gotta get as much yards as possible in before the hour's up.

old dog
October 31st, 2005, 09:56 PM
As a swimming official, I know what you mean by the term,
but I can't explain it. { I have seen it a thousand times} Would you give it a try Ande?

Hawaiiwoman
October 31st, 2005, 11:21 PM
Ande,
Would you explain "correct splitting" for the 50? I "get it" for the 100; but I thought the 50 was about 100% effort, all the way.

TheGoodSmith
November 1st, 2005, 10:25 AM
Ande is correct. Aerobic sets are fine for the "health" aspect of masters swimming but they serve little purpose for the 50 free.

Weights and speed in workouts is more important than long or middle distance sets. Swimming distance is more about practicing swimming at a slow pace and doesn't reinforce fast twitch response. Most of the events are 200 and below, not 200 and above.

Ego.... weights..... taper....... speed........ get rid of the distance crap if you are training for the 50 free. You need to bulk up.


John Smith

ande
November 1st, 2005, 11:01 AM
a terrific touch is when your hand hits the wall at the absolute perfect time, which is the soonest that it possibly can.

in freestyle, your touch hand is extended
your other hand is almost completing a stroke
and your hand hits the wall at full speed with no glide

a terrific touch is more important in butterfly
ideally you complete a stroke, fully extend out front and the wall is right there

In the 1988 olympics matt biondi had a terrible touch in the 100 fly so he got silver

in the 2004 olympics in the 100 fly,
michael phelps had a terrific touch.
even though Ian crockers head was in front of Phelps
Crocker didn't have a good touch and got silver.

Ande




Originally posted by old dog
As a swimming official, I know what you mean by the term,
but I can't explain it. { I have seen it a thousand times} Would you give it a try Ande?

Draconis
November 1st, 2005, 08:48 PM
Oh yes, I remember the 2004 Men's 100 Fly. Crocker was taking it out and leading all the way power his strokes until about the last 10m when he started to die up. Phelps and Serdinov started to move forward and they were all together, Crocker in 3, Phelps in 4, Serdinov in 5, when they were in their last 2 or 3 meters. You could hear the commentator screaming it's gonna all depend on who's "on stroke" and Phelps was on stroke during the touch, when his arms extended he touched the wall. Crocker and Serdinov both had bad touches and got silver and bronze.

ande
November 2nd, 2005, 03:48 PM
Crocker was recovering from an illness and was off his "A" game plus he had to redeem himself from his slow lead off on the 4 x 100 free relay. It's a shame he didn't get to go 2nd or 3rd on that relay, perhaps swapping places with Phelps.

Ande


Originally posted by Draconis
Oh yes, I remember the 2004 Men's 100 Fly. Crocker was taking it out and leading all the way power his strokes until about the last 10m when he started to die up. Phelps and Serdinov started to move forward and they were all together, Crocker in 3, Phelps in 4, Serdinov in 5, when they were in their last 2 or 3 meters. You could hear the commentator screaming it's gonna all depend on who's "on stroke" and Phelps was on stroke during the touch, when his arms extended he touched the wall. Crocker and Serdinov both had bad touches and got silver and bronze.

Phil Arcuni
November 5th, 2005, 08:44 PM
I would like some advice from you more experienced sprinters. I swim 50, 100, and 200 back and fly, and occasional medium distance freestyle (because my sprint free sucks.) I have been swimming Masters for about 5 years, and I am a somewhat regular top ten (but not top five) swimmer in my 6 events.

To date I have done no weights or out of pool work at all - I swim for an hour an average of 5 or 6 times a week.

I would like to improve my stroke sprints. It will be very difficult for me to add more workout times to my week. Should I keep up the swim workouts that I do, or should I exchange a couple of them for a weight workout? If I do that, will my 200's get hurt? Would I be better off adding 10 minutes of abdominal work instead?

mattson
November 6th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Phil Arcuni
I would like to improve my stroke sprints. It will be very difficult for me to add more workout times to my week. Should I keep up the swim workouts that I do, or should I exchange a couple of them for a weight workout? If I do that, will my 200's get hurt? Would I be better off adding 10 minutes of abdominal work instead?

What sort of weight workout did you have in mind? You could go high weight/low reps, low weight/high reps, or a circuit of weight stations with only moderate rest in between. The last one would add an aerobic component to your weight training.

Phil Arcuni
November 6th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I don't know what I want, I am looking for advice.

swimlong
November 6th, 2005, 09:11 PM
Phil

core strength, which many people equate to ab work, can't hurt either your sprinting or middle distance, but it can help both. Fly is very dependent on back muscles - the "opposites" to your abs - so I would include back and lat muscle weight work outs, too.

If you could add 10 minutes per day for core strength, it may be a simple as a couple typical ab crunch/transverse ab sets and some "flys" and lat pulls with handweights. Maybe, if you were to dedicate 4 days per week to core work, on opposite days you could focus on abs/transverse abs and back/lateral (side) muscles.

I have been amazed at what a minimal amount of REGULAR core work has done to my swimming, running, and soccer skills...

Allen Stark
November 7th, 2005, 03:36 PM
When I first started weights regularly the first event I got significant improvement was the 200 Br. I think it"s because it helped my DPS. If you want to sprint you should add some dry land stuff. Twice a week I lift and do core body work on the SwissBall for about 45 min and then swim about 45min for a 90 min workout. Two other days I just do the ball work for 15min and then swim an hour. That seems to work for me,your results may vary.

Dennis Tesch
November 8th, 2005, 12:06 PM
Maybe one day there will be a world class sprinter who was trained , from age grouper to collegiate swimmer, purely on short distances (25, 50, max 100's), short workouts, lots of rest, super tech, and hugh amounts of strength training, then we will all know if this truely works...

Does anyone know of any age groups teams out there training this way? I would love to see how their swimmers are doing.

Paul Smith
November 8th, 2005, 03:27 PM
Phil,
I typically train more aerobic based training with a focus on the 200.......in 2004 evil goodsmith pushed me to change my ways and train for the 50 and be part of the 200 free relay he had coaxed Rowdy to join.

Basically the training was exactly as he and Ande have decsribed.....lots of short distance/high rest speed work and heavy on the weights......and technique, technique, technique (changing turnover ratio, higher elbows, lots of turn/start training.

Bottom line is I dropped to 20.9 & 45.9 in the freestyles and 50.2 in the fly. the interesting part was didn't lose a lot of my base.....I was able to drop to 1:57 in the IM.

So my "challenge" to all the so called aerobic animals out there is step up and do some speed work......try a 6-8 beat kick for once in your life!!

ande
November 8th, 2005, 03:56 PM
can I get an amen?

be sure to include splitting in your training plans

If you study the Real Smith's 100 splits,
you'll discover
they were impressively close,
like only a 0.50 to 0.7 difference.
Part of the training comes from getting fast and part comes from holding back just the right amount.

When you dive in and go all out from the start it's hard to keep your splits within 2.0 and you're likely to land above 2.5

You gotta have speed to get out fast and easy and
you gotta have gas in your tank to get home fast.
Ironically you don't have to do aerobic work to improve your splitting and race finishing ability.

You do need to get strong, be relaxed and swim fast with perfect form. It's all about learning where to set your throttle and saving your legs a little for the end.

ande


Originally posted by Paul Smith
Phil,
I typically train more aerobic based training with a focus on the 200.......in 2004 evil goodsmith pushed me to change my ways and train for the 50 and be part of the 200 free relay he had coaxed Rowdy to join.

Basically the training was exactly as he and Ande have decsribed.....lots of short distance/high rest speed work and heavy on the weights......and technique, technique, technique (changing turnover ratio, higher elbows, lots of turn/start training.

Bottom line is I dropped to 20.9 & 45.9 in the freestyles and 50.2 in the fly. the interesting part was didn't lose a lot of my base.....I was able to drop to 1:57 in the IM.

So my "challenge" to all the so called aerobic animals out there is step up and do some speed work......try a 6-8 beat kick for once in your life!!