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TheGoodSmith
January 25th, 2006, 03:11 PM
Stupid Question:


Why is it more difficult to do dolphin kick on your stomach underwater than on your back underwater?

It seems that I can kick easier, faster and longer on my back than I can on my stomach.

Is this a matter of biomechanics or am I just a loser who can't do fly kick very well on his stomach underwater?



John Smith

aquageek
January 25th, 2006, 03:14 PM
If you have to ask, that pretty much means there's no hope for me mastering this either.

TheGoodSmith
January 25th, 2006, 03:19 PM
Seriously, Geek.......... why is this so?

When I do fly kick on my stomach underwater, I have to consciously drive my body position downward to keep from coming to the surface. It is not comfortable. When I do dolphin kick on my back, it is a much more relaxed endeavor.

Apart from my being a loser solution to the problem.... I suspect it has something to do with your lungs sitting a bit forward on the chest and your ability to arch/flex your lower back. Could be that I'm not flexible enough in my lower back.... but then that would hinder it on my back. I can't figure this thing out.


John Smith

scyfreestyler
January 25th, 2006, 03:25 PM
I want to know the answer to this as well. When I dolphin kick on my stomach it seems to come mostly from the legs whereas when I am on my back it's more of a body dolphin and is much more effective.

TheGoodSmith
January 25th, 2006, 03:29 PM
330 MAN nailed it. The feeling on your back is different than on your stomach. It is not as fluid on your stomach.

Now I have noticed that great underwater dolphin kickers seem to have an ability to flex from their hips down while keeping their upper body fairly still and streamlined. Maybe its a strength/flexibility issue in the lower back. But why is it not a parallel feeling either way?

There's got to be some gravity issue or biomechanic issue here.


John Smith

ande
January 25th, 2006, 03:36 PM
john I suspect your guess is correct it is because you are a loser
(is it looser or loser)

have you tested and timed each?

a. Dive in roll over and kick a 25 on your back for time
vs
b. Dive in and kick a 25 on your belly for time

I too feel more comfortable dolphin kicking on my back
and I'm probably faster

maybe it has to do with the fact that on our backs
we are looking up and can bend at the waist
but I really don't know,

It might be a matter of preference and training

the world may never know

many current UT swimmers take several dolphin kicks
off the start and wall in their sprint freestyles

phelps does it, Kubik was telling me about how far and fast phelps goes with his dolphin kick off each wall
you gotta be tough to take 4 dolphin kicks off each wall in a 200 free the last few are excruciating

Raz


Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Stupid Question:


Why is it more difficult to do dolphin kick on your stomach underwater than on your back underwater?

It seems that I can kick easier, faster and longer on my back than I can on my stomach.

Is this a matter of biomechanics or am I just a loser who can't do fly kick very well on his stomach underwater?

John Smith

TheGoodSmith
January 25th, 2006, 03:49 PM
Raz you are no help.



John Smith

knelson
January 25th, 2006, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by ande
john I suspect your guess is correct it is because you are a loser
(is it looser or loser)

He's a loser because his lower back isn't looser :)

I don't really know the answer either, although I do think I know where GoodSmith is coming from. I feel better dolphin kicking on my back, too, but can't say I really feel greater either way.

laineybug
January 25th, 2006, 03:54 PM
Just a guess.........could it be that we have a natural arch in our back that causes our heads to be back slightly, and therefore, 'pushes' us naturally toward the bottom. When you are on your back, this 'natural' push toward the bottom might eliminate the need to 'drive body position downward' as you do on your stomach, and free up some core muscles, making the kick stronger and more efficient on your back.

I'm interested in this question too. If the above hypothesis is correct then maybe underwater streamline head/arm position should be slightly more down than straight ahead. Has anyone ever looked at videos for the head/arm position of olympic swimmers when they are doing underwater dolfin?

Lainey

TheGoodSmith
January 25th, 2006, 03:57 PM
I like Laineybug's explanation the best so far. Natural shape of the body (neck and back) and curves may lend to this phenomenon.


John Smith

ande
January 25th, 2006, 03:58 PM
that's funny

john should I tell folks the story about your fan who used to watch TV by the entrance to the UT athletic dining hall

what was her nick name?

raz


Originally posted by knelson
He's a loser because his lower back isn't looser :)

I don't really know the answer either, although I do think I know where GoodSmith is coming from. I feel better dolphin kicking on my back, too, but can't say I really feel greater either way.

TheGoodSmith
January 25th, 2006, 03:59 PM
You are causing problems Raz.


John Smith

Jeff Commings
January 25th, 2006, 04:10 PM
I too think it has to do with core systems and gravity. Just talking off the top of my head here, but ...

The muscles that work the hardest for kicking are the quadriceps. On your back, they provide the propulsion better kicking upwards than when you're on your stomach kicking downwards.

But I'm horrible on both sides. John has witnessed it.

This is why I doubt I'll gain much from the dolphin kick on breaststroke.

69gscal
January 25th, 2006, 05:02 PM
I've noticed the same thing in my dolphin kicks as well.

Body position sounds like a good theory.

I actually thought about this at length one session when I was working on backstroke and doing a lot of dolphin kicks in a long set.
Looking at the ceiling of the gym from underwater I wondered if it had anything to do with the fact that when on your stomach your are pushing a great deal of water against the bottom of the pool, whereas while on your back you push it to the surface where it levels out.
When I'm doing dolphins on my back I like to see the trail of water I'm leaving at the surface. Being submerged 2 feet and still disrupting th esurface just seems cool.

fatboy
January 25th, 2006, 05:17 PM
I read a post here about an olympic swimmer who dolphin kicks on her side off the walls in freestyle events. I can't recall the name right now. I tried it and it seems more natural to me.

aquageek
January 25th, 2006, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by ande
that's funny

john should I tell folks the story about your fan who used to watch TV by the entrance to the UT athletic dining hall

what was her nick name?

raz

Was this the inspiration for the movie Swim Fan? I kick better on my belly than back, btw.

Fishgrrl
January 25th, 2006, 07:46 PM
I like dolphin kicking on my side....

knelson
January 26th, 2006, 10:58 AM
I've noticed when I do underwater no-breathers I have a much harder time staying submerged when kicking on my stomach as opposed to on my back. It seems like my body wants to cork up to the surface more when I'm on my stomach.

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 26th, 2006, 11:10 AM
I think that for me it is harder to do the dolphin kick underwater becasue I float so well. I can float in about 8 inches of water. I have to work so hard to keep under the water surface that i cn't focus on kicking. thisisn't a problem off of the wall though because I have the extra force form my legs pushing.

I've tried the 360 rotation kick drill, & it is even harder for me to roll onto my stomach. Generally I do dolphin on my sides and on my back. I'll do 50yds onl side then 50 yds on right . It really works my stomach and seems to me to be more simular to how the kick feels when I'm dooing the stroke.

seltzer
January 26th, 2006, 11:26 AM
My theory, totally unsupported by any data so it should be welcome here, is as follows:

It is easier to press the T on your stomach than on your back. When we swim free we press the T to maintain high body position. This works against us, to some extent, when fly kicking on the stomach since we want to stay underwater. With less press on the T on the back its easier to stay submerge and stay concentrated on the full body motion.

geochuck
January 26th, 2006, 11:34 AM
Have a look at these 2 videos re flip turns and underwater kick http://coachesinfo.com/category/swimming/281/#2 a little more on the kick dolphin kick http://cis.squirming.net/category/swimming/355/

fireguard
January 26th, 2006, 01:12 PM
Here is my two cents. BTW, sorry for my awkward English

Let's assume you kick both ways with your body perfectly streamlined, the down beat will provide a force from water which makes your body move slightly vertically.
Since the down beat in the face up situation is toward the surface, it causes you to move to the bottom; while in the face down situation, it causes you to move to the surface.

However don't forget your natural buoy. For most people the natural buoy tends to move them to the surface.
So in the face up situation, this buocy force offset the force coming from your down beat, which makes it easier for you to keep moving hrozontally and streamlined at the same time.
While in the face down situation, this buocy force makes things worse. To keep moving horizontally, you actually have to sacrfice some streamline.

TheGoodSmith
January 26th, 2006, 01:20 PM
I took a look at the video, but they don't really explain my question as to why one way feels so much easier than the other way. Fireguard may be onto something though.

I have a theory...... if you look at the kick action in these videos it is predominantly forward in front of the bodyline. That is.... the kick extension is mostly in front of the body and not much hamstring action on the back swing behind the body. If you are trying to drive your body position downward underwater it would seem to be easier to be on you back as this forward leg action of the kick would be more complimentary to driving your body position downward.... all with less effort from the quads.

Now, if you flip over on your stomach and kick, you need to drive the body downward with more hamstring motion and the kick action requires more flex and follow through behind your body. It's seems harder to extend your leg far behind you on the back swing than it is to drive you leg forward in front of you with your quads.

Just a thought.

John Smith

geochuck
January 26th, 2006, 01:25 PM
To me it seems when kicking on the front the arms control the kick on the back it is controled from the shoulders.

knelson
January 26th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by seltzer
It is easier to press the T on your stomach than on your back.

So what exactly does "press the T" mean?

Matt S
January 26th, 2006, 01:50 PM
My simple & stupid idea is that it is easier on your back because you can see the surface of the water and spend less energy making sure you stay underwater.

As Craig notes, underwater dolphins can be difficult because most of us naturally float to the surface. Thus, we have to orient ourselves going slightly down to stay underwater. I also try to dolphin on my side after freestyle turns, and I find it just as awkward as dophining underwater on my front. On my back, however, I can see immediately whether I am drifting towards the surface, and apply just enough down force to maintain depth. This lets me think about applying force forward.

I suppose you could do the same thing looking at the bottom of the pool, but in my experience most pools slope downwards towards a deeper end at some point. Also, in deep competition pools, that bottom is a loonnngggg way away.

Matt

geochuck
January 26th, 2006, 03:22 PM
Bouy, T, which one depends on who is talking, Terry explains press the bouy not the T, others say press the T.

Pressing the 'T'. Imagine keeping your shoulders and chest pressed into the water. This point will move across your chest from armpit to armpit.

I say get the chest into the water let it make you float.

swimdog
January 26th, 2006, 05:01 PM
interesting topic, thanks all!

i'll throw out my totally experience-based idea...

my first thought when reading the original post was that i personally seem to have absolutely no control over exhaling air automatically when i push off on my back; however, on my stomach i have to totally force the exhale at all times (this is actually a problem for me, and has led to some of the most amazing crash'n'burn 200M+ races ever witnessed).

i'm an extreme example, but it seems like you could be fighting buoyancy if you aren't doing quite the same nice steady exhale on the front/side which seems to come pretty naturally on the back.

i'll have to think about it more tomorrow, how i exhale on front/side kicking specifically. i know i kept popping up like a cork on side dolphin kick this am. anyone more aware than me seem to feel a different exhale pattern on front/back?

sandie

patrick
January 26th, 2006, 05:22 PM
Interesting subject:

I too struggle with this, yet I feel better on my stomach then my back, and I swim backstroke races traditionally. I just thought after 45 years I wasn't as flexible, therefore unable to duplicate what the youngsters do. I do have some scoliosis and broke my right clavicle years ago, so I wasn't naturally as streamlined as I'd like to be anyway.

On the stomach: I find I need to concentrate pressing my breastplate slightly downward and open to attain a better streamline. Also concentrating on pinching my ears back with my biceps. My kicks are small and rapid and primarily from my knees to my toes.

On my back: here I have the skeletal structure problem; unable to adequately streamline with my arms above my head and a bit of an arched back, hence a quick turn, two to three quick kicks off the wall and I'm up and stroking. No possbility of dq'ing--going farther then 15 meters.

As far as doing underwater 25s I do 2 types: I like to start off on my stomach for 3 kicks, rotate to my side for three, and then finish on my back; and then what I feel is the best, is just a long glide and then streamline freestyle kicking.

dolphinboy
June 4th, 2006, 06:07 AM
Very interesting subject,

I think everyone is different when it come to kicking underwtare either on your back or on your front. I have to say i do find holding my breath for long distances underwater considerably harder to do whilst on my back. I can dolphin kick on my front for nearly 40m without taking a breath, but struggle to get 20m on my back, maybe it because of my lung capacity.

I will agree the biomechanics of the kick on the back is easier. Going back to a pint made a whiel ago..i completed a dissertation on dolphin kicking and it it true that when kickig on your back and side the water that you quadriceps kick forward will disperse on the surface or the pool if kicking on your side, But if on your front on a particularly shallow pool the water will rebound of the botom of the pool.

Does anyone else find dolphin kicking easier on your front on your lungs?

Thrashing Slug
June 4th, 2006, 03:31 PM
I always assumed that back dolphin is easier for the same reason backstroke kick is easier than freestyle. The angle of the feet is reversed, so the downward motion is propulsive even if your ankles are not flexible.

Peter Cruise
June 4th, 2006, 10:54 PM
I'm sure John has been waiting breathlessly for me to weigh in on this topic. I mean who else has had his dolphin kick likened to "a convulsion"?

To gain insight, one must first examine the historical record, to wit, the illustrious Marquis de Sade had a little known side: he was a remarkably energetic swimmer. One day he combined observations from his other more famous researches with his aquatic avocation and produced the first recorded human dolphin kicks while swimming. Sadly, as the subjects whose behaviors he had been observing had been manacled, be was unable to combine an arm motion with his kicking.

We skip ahead to 1938 Berlin. Distinguished marine engineer Werner von Whirligiggen had been tasked to create a submarine that could, in effect, lunge out of the water & both air-launch torpedoes (fallaciously believed to promote accuracy) and crush smaller vessels beneath it. While researching the Marquis de Sade's writings for personal reasons, Werner stumbled on de Sade's observations about the dolphin kick. He immediately saw an aplication to his project and produced a model prototype using a rudder-like device in an up and down motion from the rear of the submarine, but it proved to not supply sufficient propulsion to accomplish the goal. Seeking inspiration, Werner reasoned that he should consult the same muse as de Sade: he attended the newly-instituted noon lappen schwimmen at the Berlin Olympic pool and- Eureka! upon suffering a sudden gut cramp accidentally created the first modern combination of a dolphin kick with a synchronized windmilling motion of his arms. Which, as a digression spawned the first known instance of a corpulent non-swimmer draped upon a kapok-filled precursor of the noodle to exclain "Nein splaschen!", to which Werner replied in a fashion familiar to modern competitive swimmers "Getten stuffen sie grossen frau!" Werner then bolted from the pool to hastily sketch in his notebook a notion of a submarine incorporating both his rear rudder device & twin piston-catapults on the sides to help heave the craft both forward & above the water. Happily for the allies, the noodler he had clashed with turned out to be Mrs. Hermann Goering, and Werner was last seen swimming from an aircraft in flight.
His notebook survived however, and was among the booty grabbed by the Russians from the fall of Berlin. To be cont.

Peter Cruise
June 4th, 2006, 11:04 PM
Early Soviet sport scientists mistakenly interpreted his notebook to describe a new, but absurd, swimming technique and reasoned that promoting it would fulfill Stalin's directive to subvert western morale by replacing a stroke of renowned beauty and purity (breastroke) with an ugly mechanistic expression of the worker-state (butterfly). They set out to exploit loopholes within the breastroke rules to gradually convert it to their insidious purposes, and almost gained their nefarious goals, but in the literal nick of time the strokes were split and justice prevailed.

I hope that this brief historical tryptich can be of help to those butterfliers trying to penetrate the mysteries first observed by de Sade.

Paul Smith
June 5th, 2006, 08:56 AM
Since JS posted this we've made some progress in figuring out his problem:

- Classic mistake in using a dolfin kick in either position; amplitude. On free/fly his kick was mostly from the knee's vs, his "core"......for some reason on back starts/turns he was kicking correctly. One of the reasons I see people make this mistake is because they use fins incorrectly; you need to keep a much "tighter" higher speed kick vs. big old sweeping ones.

- Turn position; On free and fly you also need to come off the wall and transition to horizontal by kicking on your side...this can be one kick or as many as maintain your momentum (On fly I'll kcik out about 5-7 on my side before rotating thru). kicking dolfin (correctly) on your side is by far the fastest way to move thru the water.

JS found that he's more successful "old school" (ala Clay Britt) in taking only two dolfins on fly or back and getting to the surface where he's stronger....to bad h missed his chance to prove hit in FL! :)

- Breath Control; big/common mistake is to make a big exhale as you push off th wall. As much as I hate to admit it Mark Gill pointed this out to me a few years back when he was coaching....a loswbreath release can really extend your time underwater.

lefty
June 5th, 2006, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Thrashing Slug
I always assumed that back dolphin is easier for the same reason backstroke kick is easier than freestyle. The angle of the feet is reversed, so the downward motion is propulsive even if your ankles are not flexible.

I agree, it is ankle position (flexibility) is the reason it feels more natural (for some) to dolphin on your back. The more I work on ankle flexibility the better I feel about dolphin kicking on my stomach.

dolphinboy
June 5th, 2006, 04:20 PM
hi,

well yes very good point about he ankle flexibilty but noone has really given an asnwer abiut the pressure in their lungs whlist on their back
does anyone else find it hard to stop water going up nose?

or can anyone give me a tip to help with my jungs underwater whilst on my back

????

The Fortress
March 8th, 2007, 04:51 PM
I'm going to drag up this old thread because everyone seems quite interested in SDKs at the moment -- except Warren. Dave can register his "no post" objection too.

I seem to have an opposite experience of most people here. If I do timed 25 or 50s SDK-ing, I'm faster on my belly face down. And it's easier to hold my breath. Due to flexibility? I have to come up sooner when I SDK on my back. Although when I'm kicking on the surface, I'm faster dolphin kicking on my back. I try not to have to much amplitude. Others?

chaos
March 8th, 2007, 05:01 PM
I have to come up sooner when I SDK on my back. Although when I'm kicking on the surface, I'm faster dolphin kicking on my back. I try not to have to much amplitude. Others?

Same here.
I think its about breathing and/or controlling your exhalation. I can always travel further face down because I can exhale more slowly face down.

Because of the size of my nose, all the air wants to rush out when i'm face up! (even with a deviated septum):thhbbb: What's your excuse?

poolraat
March 8th, 2007, 05:09 PM
Same here.
I think its about breathing and/or controlling your exhalation. I can always travel further face down because I can exhale more slowly face down.

Because of the size of my nose, all the air wants to rush out when i'm face up! (even with a deviated septum):thhbbb: What's your excuse?


I bet it's a great rudder though.
I have one too.

I have to stop exhaling and just hold my breath or I'll only make it about halfway across. I've found that if I do a very short exhale right after the push-off then I can hold my breath and keep water from rushing in at least until I get to the flags. But like Fort I'm faster face down than face up by a couple sec for a 25.

funkyfish
March 8th, 2007, 05:51 PM
Here's my 2 cents on the "rising up with stomach down" part. I've noticed that when I'm SDKing, if I don't concentrate a little more on the hamstrings working during the "up" phase, then I tend to surface quicker than I want to. It's probably subjective, but I feel that my kick is more powerful when I emphasize both the up and down parts of the motion. I don't care for doing it on my back underwater because of the water in my nose thing, but on flip turns I'll do 1-2 kicks upside down, and rotate while dolphin kicking. Takes about 4-6 kicks before I start pulling.

geochuck
March 8th, 2007, 06:01 PM
This is soooo difficult. We can only go so far underwater why try to go farther then allowed.

Muppet
March 8th, 2007, 11:33 PM
This is soooo difficult. We can only go so far underwater why try to go farther then allowed.

Amen, my brother. When we do underwater stuff, I almost never make it aross the pool. I don't try to do it this way, but I usually run out of air and pop up right at the 15m mark. My body is subconsciously telling me "Jeff, you may have 10 SDKs and then you must come up or get DQd.":banana:

The Fortress
March 8th, 2007, 11:35 PM
Same here.
I think its about breathing and/or controlling your exhalation. I can always travel further face down because I can exhale more slowly face down.

Because of the size of my nose, all the air wants to rush out when i'm face up! (even with a deviated septum):thhbbb: What's your excuse?

I don't have the size of my nose excuse. :thhbbb: But I do have a hot French temper to match your hot Italian temper. :thhbbb:

Beats me. I'm not a swimming physicist. I seem to have some of the ingredients for good SDK-ing: core body strength, flexible ankles, quad/ham strength ... And I do practice it, which I think makes a huge difference.

Oddly, I seem to go further on backstroke when I am not in a perfect streamline position and put the head down. But I have been yelled at for this, so I try not to do it. Also, unlike what LaineyBug was saying above, I have a naturally arched back and I wonder if that works against me on my back. For better streamline and recruitment of the core (not just in SDKs either), it seems like you should swim as if someone has punched you in the gut. Seriously, keep the stomach tight and back unarched. Or maybe, as Geochuck says, I have stronger arms than shoulders and so I am better SDK-ing on my stomach? I'm not bad on my back (at SDK-ing, Rich :thhbbb: ), especially off the start, but there is a difference in ease. Could be the exhalation thing too. I guess I should use that nose plug. I know backstrokers that use it just to get the underwater distance. I just couldn't keep mine on. Lost two immediately ...

Muppet:

The goal is not to go all the way underwater on 25s, although even I can do that without my mono on the belly. The goal is to stay underwater longer throughout the whole race. That ain't easy, for sure. I stay under less and less as the distance increases.

Muppet
March 8th, 2007, 11:46 PM
Muppet:

The goal is not to go all the way underwater on 25s, although even I can do that without my mono on the belly. The goal is to stay underwater longer throughout the whole race. That ain't easy, for sure. I stay under less and less as the distance increases.

Madame,
Last time I checked with Coach Andrew (who had me do a 600, 300 and 100 for time tonight, btw), when he says underwater, he means i better be submerged the entire way. I don't question the guy. But I still only make it across <20% of the time. I usually work the first 5 kicks or so pretty good, as I know those are the ones I'll actually be using in real life.

The Fortress
March 8th, 2007, 11:54 PM
Madame,
Last time I checked with Coach Andrew (who had me do a 600, 300 and 100 for time tonight, btw), when he says underwater, he means i better be submerged the entire way. I don't question the guy. But I still only make it across <20% of the time. I usually work the first 5 kicks or so pretty good, as I know those are the ones I'll actually be using in real life.

Monsieur:

What the heck is the problem? You're a really strong guy. I'm sure you can get across the pool on the 25s unless you're doing them back to back without enough rest. On your stomach or back? You only work 5 kicks? What are you doing with those five kicks? Lot of amplitude? I use a high cycle low amplitude rate for the most bang for the buck, if I'm not being lazy or unMindful. I'm assuming, perhaps erroneously, that if you become efficient at kicking the whole 25 underwater on a regular basis that will help you out later in a race when it's difficult to stay under the whole 15 meters? I'm gonna watch that 200 fly at zones to see if you are staying under the whole 15 meters. :rofl: Tres impossible, je pense. What sets does Coach Andrew have you do?

I will say that Coach Cheryl killed us tonight. But it was a dandy sprinter workout. I'm just a tad out of shape. Couldn't stay under as long as usual ... 600 for time? What's that about? I hope you did at least 3 SDKs off each turn. ;)

SwimStud
March 9th, 2007, 10:33 AM
I can get across the pool underwater..it's sadly the depths that I end up diving to that cause me issues. If SDK back from the deep end I have to climb the slope LOL.

3strokes
March 9th, 2007, 10:59 AM
dolphinboy;58811Very interesting subject,

I think everyone is different when it come to kicking underwtare either on your back or on your front. I have to say i do find holding my breath for long distances underwater considerably harder to do whilst on my back. I can dolphin kick on my front for nearly 40m without taking a breath, but struggle to get 20m on my back, maybe it because of my lung capacity.

I will agree the biomechanics of the kick on the back is easier. Going back to a pint made a whiel ago..i completed a dissertation on dolphin kicking and it it true that when kickig on your back and side the water that you quadriceps kick forward will disperse on the surface or the pool if kicking on your side, But if on your front on a particularly shallow pool the water will rebound of the botom of the pool.

Does anyone else find dolphin kicking easier on your front on your lungs?


Apart from all the other good and seemingly valid points made, I find that if I'm on my back (underwater) I need to keep exhaling a stready stream of bubbles, albeit slowly, to keep water from entering my nostrils, whereas, on my stomach (or even on my side at almost 90% to the horizontal), I need exhale only when I want to, as little as I want to, to get rid of the CO2 (as opposed to just wanting to keep the water out of my nostrils).
I don't use noseclips.

SwimStud
March 9th, 2007, 11:04 AM
Apart from all the other good and seemingly valid points made, I find that if I'm on my back (underwater) I need to keep exhaling a stready stream of bubbles, albeit slowly, to keep water from entering my nostrils, whereas, on my stomach (or even on my side at almost 90% to the horizontal), I need exhale only when I want to, as little as I want to, to get rid of the CO2 (as opposed to just wanting to keep the water out of my nostrils).
I don't use noseclips.

Odd I can "lock" my nostrils. I push my tongue up aganist the rooth of my mouth. Beyond that I can't describe what I do. However...I do exhale while I SDK on a turn from fly to back in the IM...b/c I'm huffing and puffing LOL.

Allen Stark
March 9th, 2007, 11:04 AM
Natalie Coughlin curls her lip up to close off her nostrils for underwater backstroke. I've tried it,not as easy as it looks. Anyone else have any tips for doing this?

SwimStud
March 9th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Natalie Coughlin curls her lip up to close off her nostrils for underwater backstroke. I've tried it,not as easy as it looks. Anyone else have any tips for doing this?

Elvis was good at this too..but not sure he was very streamlined...Seemed to flail his arms a lot. He had good leg flexibilty though probably a Breaststroker. :)

Sorry to be goofy Allen.. I couldn't resist

aquaFeisty
March 9th, 2007, 02:44 PM
I'm faster on my tummy than back. Although when I finally 'got' the whole SDK thing, it was by watching someone really really good do them on his back... and I was initially better on my back too. I'm better on my stomach now just because of lots of practice (all those flipturns). On my back, I seem to kick from my belly button down, whereas on my stomach I kick from my armpits down. ?? Beats me.

We did some 25's kick last week on the :35 and, to my astonishment/utter horror, my SDK was faster than my breast kick (no boards, and I give myself one regular underwater pullout anything I'm kicking breast). Good Lord!

SwimStud
March 9th, 2007, 11:14 PM
Ooooh tonight I discovered they're much easier "Man from Atlantis" style with hands by sides...why is that?

Muppet
March 10th, 2007, 12:25 AM
Monsieur:

What the heck is the problem? You're a really strong guy. I'm sure you can get across the pool on the 25s unless you're doing them back to back without enough rest. On your stomach or back? You only work 5 kicks? What are you doing with those five kicks? Lot of amplitude? I use a high cycle low amplitude rate for the most bang for the buck, if I'm not being lazy or unMindful. I'm assuming, perhaps erroneously, that if you become efficient at kicking the whole 25 underwater on a regular basis that will help you out later in a race when it's difficult to stay under the whole 15 meters? I'm gonna watch that 200 fly at zones to see if you are staying under the whole 15 meters. :rofl: Tres impossible, je pense. What sets does Coach Andrew have you do?

I will say that Coach Cheryl killed us tonight. But it was a dandy sprinter workout. I'm just a tad out of shape. Couldn't stay under as long as usual ... 600 for time? What's that about? I hope you did at least 3 SDKs off each turn. ;)

Who knows what the problem is - i just dont meake it.. as for the working 5 kicks, my race starts usually have 5 or 6, so anything after that is a moot point. That zones race will be interesting, as I will be coming off the 500 2 events before. I've heard its not a pretty combination. Will definetely be shooting for some long underwater time :).
Andrew just wants to see us do well at nationals this year! He knows we'll do whatever it takes to do well, and knows if he says 600 fast, we'll do it. I did 1-2 SDK off the walls (it is as long as I can stand it, as I lose a lot of air on turns) except for a few here and there. the 300 was not good, but the 100 was good, went 5,3,2,3 SDK off each wall, 57.4, very good time from a push for me (anything below 59 in practice is usually off the blocks).

3strokes
March 10th, 2007, 09:28 AM
This may seem odd (given that streamlining is scientifically proven to be the way to go), but I find that -from a pushoff- :

a) my flutter kick is faster and will take me to the 12.5 m mark (it's a 25m pool and that's the only marking there; no 15m marks) much faster than with a SDK.
This makes sense to me, since I was akways a Freestyler and did Flies just for the heck of it.

However

b) I tried, for fun, dolphin kicking from a pushoff, with my arms by my side (Marine-boy-style, my son's favorite show back then, or was it dolphin-boy TV series of ages and eons ago) and I found that it took me only seven fast kicks to get to the 12.5m mark, while my SDK took me longer and took me 10-11 kicks.

I did not have anybody time these two versions. (I've nobody there who I could ask to reliably do it). But with b) the tiles went by much faster. (I somehow know that Ande -if he were to stumble on this Posting- would tell me to get timed by hook or by crook. It won't happen: All the other swimmers at my pool are of the variety of which we make so much fun in other threads and the lifeguards, akready can't read. They're unable to enforce the signs placed at four lanes: Fast - Medium Fast - Medium and Leisure. (No, we don't have Fast, Medium and Slow: too many egos would be offended. We get swimmers in the Fast lane who belong in a puddle in the parking lot. I don't mind their slow speed; they're practically standing still. I just don't want them to stand near the middle of the lane, chatting, while their body mass would displace the Titanic.)

It goes without saying that I would never try this (non-S DK) in competition since the speed advantage gained by having my arms at my sides (palms against thighs or palms facing the bottom of the pool and doing a little flutter of their own) would be completely negating my propulsion when I have to move one (or two arms) from that position to a frontal extension, from where I could start my pull. It's just too much of a braking motion.

But the point I'm really trying to make is that (at 64) I can get more body undulation (more of a dolphin-like motion) with my arms at my side than in the classical SDK position (hand and wrist and most of the forearm on top of one another, arms against ears -even a bit higher than ears, etc...). Even a semi SDK doesn't help with flexibility (i.e., just fore(4)fingers on top of each other, arms not flattening -or even touching- my ears. In this quasi-SDK I seem to get more of a pronounced undulation going.


On an almost related variation (i.e., swimming like a fish):
Same with D-Kicking on my side; it's faster than face-down SDK
and side flutter kick (90 degrees. OK, confessing, it's more like 88.5 degrees from the horizontal) is faster than a facedown flutter kick.....
while doing it, but twisting back to normal slows me down.

I just can't win with the SDK. I do do some medium fast 25m's Flies (or is it "flys" for swimming?) but I'll just never be an SDK'er off the starting block (seeing that I also get to use it for a few minutes only once a year.)

Cheers

imspoiled
March 11th, 2007, 04:36 PM
3Strokes-

Just a guess here, but I think the reason you get more undulation with your hands at you side is because you are actually starting your SDK from your head. Pressing down with your forehead and letting the rest of the body follow the "wave" from the top down.

When you stretch your hands in streamline overhead, my guess is you are only kicking from the waist down. Most likely because you're concentrating on holding the streamline.

Try concentrating on starting the SDK from your head while in the streamline position & see if that changes your undulation.

Dana

SwimStud
March 11th, 2007, 05:05 PM
3Strokes-

Just a guess here, but I think the reason you get more undulation with your hands at you side is because you are actually starting your SDK from your head. Pressing down with your forehead and letting the rest of the body follow the "wave" from the top down.

When you stretch your hands in streamline overhead, my guess is you are only kicking from the waist down. Most likely because you're concentrating on holding the streamline.

Try concentrating on starting the SDK from your head while in the streamline position & see if that changes your undulation.

Dana

I found that true, but I was told to use my chest to start not my head...

imspoiled
March 11th, 2007, 07:45 PM
I found that true, but I was told to use my chest to start not my head...

True, Stud. Lead with the chest. But, you know what they say, "Where the head goes, the chest will follow."

Ok, that was bad, but I find if I keep my head/neck to rigid during fly or SDK it is tougher to get the rhythm going.

SwimStud
March 11th, 2007, 10:24 PM
True, Stud. Lead with the chest. But, you know what they say, "Where the head goes, the chest will follow."

Ok, that was bad, but I find if I keep my head/neck to rigid during fly or SDK it is tougher to get the rhythm going.

Yeah I didn't think I was leding withthe head but more just letting my neck relax a bit. Well I'll be swimming tomorrow and I can check it out both ways

3strokes
March 11th, 2007, 11:43 PM
imspoiled;83049

Just a guess here, but I think the reason you get more undulation with your hands at you side is because you are actually starting your SDK from your head. Pressing down with your forehead and letting the rest of the body follow the "wave" from the top down.

When you stretch your hands in streamline overhead, my guess is you are only kicking from the waist down. Most likely because you're concentrating on holding the streamline.

Try concentrating on starting the SDK from your head while in the streamline position & see if that changes your undulation.

Dana

Thanks for the tip. Going to try to keep it in mind when next I go a-swimmin' (Tuesday am) and will try to see what it is that leads when going Marine-boy-(Man from Atlantis)-style and whether I can transpose that to arms-forward postion.

Cheers

globuggie
March 12th, 2007, 10:22 AM
Natalie Coughlin curls her lip up to close off her nostrils for underwater backstroke. I've tried it,not as easy as it looks. Anyone else have any tips for doing this?

I do this naturally, but it's not the easiest thing to explain. The best I can describe it is that I stick my lips out like a kiss, then use my lower lip to push my upper lip against my nose. If you still going :confused: , I can try to explain it a different way, but it may just be something you have to learn instictually.