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N1ghteyes_13
January 27th, 2006, 01:23 PM
I just got Total immersion book yesterday.
Have read part 1 of the book and just started doing the drills today.
It seems an excallent way to swim and definatly will improve my f/s.

But i'm a bit weary because it's so comercail. so my question is,

Is Total immersion as good a way to swim as it makes out?

or is it the best way to learn how to swim?
Are there better books out there that teach you how to swim well(properly)?

Hope that makes sense

Swifty

MichiganHusker
January 27th, 2006, 01:28 PM
Did you hear that? I think it was Pandora's box opening.......

Frank Thompson
January 27th, 2006, 01:53 PM
N1ghteyes_13 Craig:

I am going to give you a couple of threads to look up in the search section of this forum and then you will see what Husker was refering to about Pandora's Box opening. We can all spare a trip down memory lane regarding this. The threads I am talking about are "Criticism of TI Principals" which has 483 replies and 12603 views by members and vistors to this website. Another thread to read is "Approach To Teaching Competitive Swimming". I am sure your questions will be answered and you will spare us the time to talk about this again.

newmastersswimmer
January 27th, 2006, 03:17 PM
Any side bets between you and Gull on this 500 free challenge thing?

Just curious,

Newmastersswimmer

TheGoodSmith
January 27th, 2006, 03:22 PM
You are asking for trouble on this thread.

The swimming world is split between TI and non TI believers.



John Smith

newmastersswimmer
January 27th, 2006, 03:34 PM
Eh? Did I hear you correctly Mister Good/Evil Smith?......Aren't you the one who prides himself on being the MOST controversial thread starter around?.....and even exclaimed that you should win a USMS discussion board award of some kind for that category??......Maybe you're just afraid of a little competition for that award then?


Newmastersswimmer

aquageek
January 27th, 2006, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
Any side bets between you and Gull on this 500 free challenge thing?

Just curious,

Newmastersswimmer

Oh yes, after the drubbing, gull80 will give me his FSII and change his name on this forum to "Smoked by a late bloomin' geek".

scyfreestyler
January 27th, 2006, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
Any side bets between you and Gull on this 500 free challenge thing?

Just curious,

Newmastersswimmer

I'll bet a few bucks via paypal on that race if anybody is interested!

Newmastersswimmer, what about your face off with Raz? When is that going to occur, or did I miss it?

geochuck
January 27th, 2006, 06:02 PM
TI what is it? Do you mean Tai Chi or Totaly Indecisive?

N1ghteyes_13
January 28th, 2006, 05:06 AM
Thanks for all your relpies.
Frank i'll look at the threads some time today, thanks. Didn't relies this was suck a contivesial issue, cause i only heard about TI last weekend (well some oe recomended the book to me)

thanks

N1ghteyes_13
January 28th, 2006, 07:43 AM
wo talk about pandoras box...
i just read abit on "critisums of TI"

I think the generally consensus is, TI is a good START but most definatly not the be all end all of how to swim.

Approach to teaching competitive swimming? (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=342&highlight=Approach+To+Teaching+Competitive+Swimmin g)

Criticism of TI Principles (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5181&highlight=Criticism+of+Principals)

Kevin in MD
January 28th, 2006, 09:55 AM
There is no better way I have found to try and teach yourself to swim better.

The audience is people who are lap swimmers and there last swim instruction was swim lessons when they were 6. They hold themselves out as more than that but really, that's who it is for.

That said, with a little thought in your practice the book and principles will get you 85 to 90% of the way there. Then once you are a pretty good swimmer you can bicker about the last 10%.

There is no other resource setup like it with systematic explanation of swimming written for the person looking to teach himself.

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 28th, 2006, 11:11 AM
To all of you who know every little detail about swimmign's history. Has Terry ever produced any really top swimmers? I know a woman who ahs taken all of the "workshop" offered. Her strokes are really beautiful. But she isn't fast. People tell me that my stroke is so relaxed but I'm not fast either.

scyfreestyler
January 28th, 2006, 05:04 PM
A smooth and efficient stroke does not neccesarily equal fast swimming. Stamina, strength, and turnover rate play a large role in speed. However, I think one would be well served to learn to swim smooth and efficient before he/she attempts to add speed to the equation. That's just my $.02.

I think you will find that many of the TI drills are quite similar to those used by many other respectable swim coaches. TI's approach is not wildly creative or bizarre as many would lead you to believe.

Frank Thompson
January 28th, 2006, 08:49 PM
N1ghteyes_13 Craigh and Craighlll:

You can read more about TI and the swimmers produced out of the program at the TI webstie and also some more discussion on the USA swimming site, which is linked to this site. There is a thread called Terry Laughlin Enough Already on the USA Swimming website that details the swimmers in the programs that Terry has coached. Rather than rehashing here, you can find the information you are looking for there.

chaos
January 29th, 2006, 02:42 PM
greetings all,
i have the good fortune of living in stone ridge, ny (about 20 minutes from the ti swim studio in new paltz)

i started training with terry a few years ago. we are both members of the same masters club and swim in the same lakes during the summer season.

although our masters club is not a ti organization, we have a very dedicated coaching staff who prepare challanging workouts for us five days a week.

as a ti convert , i consider it up to me to impose certain disciplines into each set that my lane mates couldn't care less about.

though i do touch on the drills regularly to keep my form, i can swim the sets posted by our coaches and practice ti without disrupting anyone in my lane.

geochuck
January 30th, 2006, 10:01 AM
I have watched several videos of top calibre swimmers but have not seen very many that have significant hip roll, as discribed in TI, they do roll their shoulders.

IndyGal
January 30th, 2006, 10:21 AM
Ok, before I'm flamed, let me point out that this is strictly IMO. As always, your mileage may vary.

I took a TI clinic last year and it improved my stroke quite a bit. The most obvious improvement for me has been distance and straightening out obvious kinks in my technique. Before TI I felt out-of-breath with sets over 100. After TI, I can swim sets of 800+ and be perfectly relaxed. I have almost tripled the distance I swim in an average workout since I completed TI. I have not seen a gain in speed, or not yet, anyway. However, I was not fast before TI, and I'm not naive enough to think one clinic is going to drop seconds off my time. From what I can tell, the drills are not particularly unique to TI. I have all the Go Swim DVDs and several of the USA Swimming DVDs, and many of the TI drills overlap with what I see there and with the drills I was taught in Masters.

My personal opinion is that if you're quite serious about competitive swimming, you should find a coach who has a history of turning out successful athletes. The secret of TI's success is that they are willing to invest time in the average swimmer with unglamorous goals, and I see nothing wrong with that.

If I can use an analogy here, my husband is a Juilliard-trained classical musician. To make it in that line of work, you need to go somewhere like Juilliard and study with a top teacher, someone with a track record of turning out great musicians. Realistically, though, the majority of people will never be accepted into those programs. For someone who is not in the top of the talent pool (or someone who is not looking for a professional career but just looking to play for enjoyment), you have no choice but to explore other learning opportunities. That's how I see TI... an opportunity for those of us who are not in the top of the talent pool or who are not shooting for top success on the competitive circuit. It's a matter of horses for courses, or however that saying goes. :D

newmastersswimmer
January 30th, 2006, 10:27 AM
I'll bet a few bucks via paypal on that race if anybody is interested!

Newmastersswimmer, what about your face off with Raz? When is that going to occur, or did I miss it?

originally posted by 330 Man in response to the 500 Challenge between Aqua Geek and Gull80


Actually our challenge is based on the fastest 500 free time posted before the end of the 2005-2006 SCY season....So far neither of us have swam a 500 in a meet yet. I just got back into training again a couple of weeks ago after taking off 5 weeks ......it's a long story (involving a fire at the YMCA, an injury, and a vacation to Mexico).....Anyway, Ande is in much better shape than me right now.....and he is faster than me anyway.....so I'm going to need a miracle to win my 500 free challenge.....but I'm not throwing in the towel yet b/c I will never submit passively to defeat against an ex-Longhorn....I will go down fighting!


Newmastersswimmer

geochuck
February 6th, 2006, 10:42 AM
www.ti-europe.com/free-vid-clips.php?lang=eng go to See videos of what we teach at TI workshops here and see there video clips.

LindsayNB
February 6th, 2006, 12:13 PM
I just wish that the word "effortless" could be removed from the TI vocabulary.

scyfreestyler
February 6th, 2006, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
I just wish that the word "effortless" could be removed from the TI vocabulary.

I would have to agree with that.

Swimming is all about resistance. Resistance is what provides your propulsion and it is also what slows you down. Working with and against resistance at the same time will never be effortless. TI may teach a method of swimming that requires less effort at slower speeds than other methods but effortless swimming is quite contrdictory.

geochuck
February 6th, 2006, 02:23 PM
We do have to realize that resistance is what makes us move forward, we grab the imaginary wall of water and apply pressure against the imaginary wall (resistance) and we move forward with very little effort..

Frank Thompson
February 8th, 2006, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
To all of you who know every little detail about swimmign's history. Has Terry ever produced any really top swimmers? I know a woman who ahs taken all of the "workshop" offered. Her strokes are really beautiful. But she isn't fast. People tell me that my stroke is so relaxed but I'm not fast either.

Craiglll:

I just came across this as a point of reference to your question. www.totalimmersion.net/articles/03MARCHissue/Adrienne.html

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2006, 12:20 AM
That's a great article. Thanks for sharing. :)

craiglll@yahoo.com
February 9th, 2006, 11:22 AM
the article is interesting. I know tat Terry coached at West Point but I don't know when.

thewookiee
February 9th, 2006, 12:36 PM
Terry coached the sprinters at West Point from 1996 through 1999, give or take a year.

Ken Classen
February 9th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Ok children it's a wreak on the highway. Just look away, just look away.

gull
February 10th, 2006, 09:20 AM
How did Adrienne do in Athens?

geochuck
February 10th, 2006, 10:18 AM
I am going to talk to all the coaches I know, I am sure some will Like TI. Those are the ones who coach the masters, I have no idea what the others think. I think I like a lot of what he does and some stuff I do not like but I am for him.

scyfreestyler
February 10th, 2006, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by gull80
How did Adrienne do in Athens?

I assume that the above remark was intended to be inflamatory. :P If it was not, please disregard the sentences below.

I don't know that she even swam in Athens. However, her 1650 time justifies whatever training program she is following as well as whatever technique she employs. You don't need to be an Olympian to prove your mettle in swimming, especially when your 1650 time is faster than the men's 18-24 USMS top ten in that event by a significant margin.

gull
February 10th, 2006, 01:11 PM
I just wanted to know how she did in Athens. It's a fair question. TI uses her story to validate their training philosophy. The top coaches in swimming are judged by the number of Olympians they produce, are they not?

My opinions about TI could only be considered inflammatory if they were taken personally. And for some odd reason, that seems to be the case. I guess there are three topics which should be off limits: religion, politics, and TI.

globuggie
February 10th, 2006, 01:30 PM
I looked up Adrienne's Olympic Trial results. She placed 4th in the 400 IM, 20th in the 400 free, and 10th in the 800 free.

geochuck
February 10th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Does that make her a bad swimmer? I don't think it does.

MichiganHusker
February 10th, 2006, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by gull80
I guess there are three topics which should be off limits: religion, politics, and TI.

.....and college football and the BCS.

scyfreestyler
February 10th, 2006, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by gull80
I just wanted to know how she did in Athens. It's a fair question. TI uses her story to validate their training philosophy. The top coaches in swimming are judged by the number of Olympians they produce, are they not?

My opinions about TI could only be considered inflammatory if they were taken personally. And for some odd reason, that seems to be the case. I guess there are three topics which should be off limits: religion, politics, and TI.

Being an Olympian is a great thing but so is swimming a sub 16 minute mile (fastest high schooler, etc., etc.). I can't do it. I suspect that very few people here can. The bottom line is that she is an incredible swimmer by any measure and she is coached with TI methods.

I don't take it personally because I don't train with TI methods. I found it inflamatory because I know how you feel about TI and I think that this TI swimmer deserves some credit, as does her coach.

thewookiee
February 10th, 2006, 02:32 PM
Regardless of how she achieved her times, through TI method or any other method, there should only be respect given to her for the swims.
The reactions to TI on this discussion board are definitly mixed. The real question, in my mind, do the people who don't like TI, not like it because of the method or the man behind the method?

gull
February 10th, 2006, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by 330man
I found it inflamatory because I know how you feel about TI and I think that this TI swimmer deserves some credit, as does her coach.

I assume TI would have taken credit for her success at the Olympics had she made the team (I honestly did not know if she had). And while I certainly do not mean to discredit her achievements, it's not at all surprising that TI does not in turn accept blame for her failure to make the Olympic team. That's what good marketing is all about. And that is why I "feel" the way I do about TI.

scyfreestyler
February 10th, 2006, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by gull80
I assume TI would have taken credit for her success at the Olympics had she made the team (I honestly did not know if she had). And while I certainly do not mean to discredit her achievements, it's not at all surprising that TI does not in turn accept blame for her failure to make the Olympic team. That's what good marketing is all about. And that is why I "feel" the way I do about TI.

Gull,
I can see where you are coming from. However, I highly doubt that TI is to blame for her failure to make the Olympic Team in 2004. There are so many variables to consider, that is for certain, but I doubt her technique training is one of them. Especially when you consider that the same training was responsible for her record setting 1650 time.

In addition, I would not expect TI to take the blame for her failure to make the team. Did Bob Bowman step up and take the blame for Michael's lackluster performance at the World Champs in Canada? Not that I recall. The blame was to be placed on no one other than Michael himself, and he openly admitted to his training shortcomings prior to that meet.

If you are treating a patient for high LDL, low HDL, hypertension, hypotension, or any other cardiovascular disease and the patient has a stroke, heart attack, etc. despite your treatment, do you accept the blame? Does a cardiothoracic surgeon tell his patients about the successes he has had in the OR or about those who have died on the table? My point is that cause and effect is not always the proper explanation. If you hear hoofbeats do you assume that it's a zebra? (Stole that one from Dr. Dean Edell...thanks Dr.!) Despite your best efforts, not all patients can be helped. Despite TI's training, a swimmer is not guranteed to excel. You are not always responsible for a patients outcome and a training method is not always to blame for a swimmers degree of success.

thewookiee
February 10th, 2006, 04:03 PM
Here is another thing to consider, by the time she went to the 2004 trials, she was not training under her club coach. In fact, during the 2003-2004 school year, she was a freshman in college. Adjusting to a new coach, new part of the country, etc, etc.
Is that to blame for her not making the team? Seriously doubt it but it could play into how she swam that first year. Esp. if her new coach, made changes to her stroke during that first year.
So, we can sit here and come up with a lot of reasons why she didn't make the team. Fact is, she didn't. Fact is, she has swam super fast using TI methods.
And he is right, TI works well for some, then again, it doesn't work well for others.

knelson
February 10th, 2006, 04:09 PM
If we're going to discuss Adrienne Binder it's interesting to note that she has not bettered that 1650 time in college. She's swimming for Auburn, by the way (http://auburntigers.collegesports.com/sports/c-swim/mtt/binder_adrienne00.html). Not to say she's a slouch now, in fact she's swimming very well, but apparently she swam her lifetime best in the mile while she was concentrating on TI, rather than her current training regimen at Auburn.

edit: didn't see the post right above this before I posted

gull
February 10th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Here's the thing--TI does not have a patent on their drills, as was pointed out elsewhere on this forum. What they have done is repackage them and successfully market their product. I think their claims are overstated, but that's my opinion. I don't begrudge them their success--it's free enterprise. It's kind of like the repackaging of the Mediterranean diet into the Sonoma diet. Personally, I think the greatest value of the TI "method" might be in teaching novice swimmers, lap swimmers, and perhaps triathletes (especially since swimming is the shortest portion of a tri).

geochuck
February 10th, 2006, 05:14 PM
Most great coaches are dependent on swimmers coming from other coaches. I know a very succesfull Y coach who has limited time for coaching. His swimmers always leave him to swim for other coaches and he coaches using TI principals. All of the kids I taught to swim had to leave my pool and go to swim clubs as my cost was to high for them to continue their dreams but they knew how to swim.

gull
February 11th, 2006, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by 330man
...I highly doubt that TI is to blame for her failure to make the Olympic Team in 2004. There are so many variables to consider, that is for certain, but I doubt her technique training is one of them. Especially when you consider that the same training was responsible for her record setting 1650 time.

So we credit her TI training for her 1650 swim, but we do not fault that same TI training when she fails to make the Olympic team? Very convenient. Maybe she is just a very talented swimmer--as her coach said, "I believed she could be a great swimmer because she had an amazing quality of flow in her swimming." There is no way to know how she would have developed in a "conventional" training program (which likely would have incorporated "TI drills" regardless).

scyfreestyler
February 11th, 2006, 11:51 AM
How is it possible for a training method to make you fast and then slow? I don't get it. A training method/style either works for somebody or it does not. Do you think it is possible that she fell off of her original training routine sometime after that article was published?

gull
February 11th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Exactly. If we are to conclude that the TI method is responsible for what she was able to achieve, then of course we must find fault elsewhere when she falls short of her goal to make the Olympic team. Or we can always say that qualifying for the Olympic trials should be achievement enough.

How was her competition trained?

Matt S
February 13th, 2006, 11:07 PM
Craig in Liverpool,

Total Immersion, just like any other well-considered program for improving stroke technique, will make you better and faster than you would be swimming your same old, same old. Just how much you improve, and just how "fast" you get is affected by a lot of other variables, such as: age, athletic ability, level of conditioning and prior swimming experience.

I am experienced (if rather mediocre) swimmer, and I have used TI to improve my swimming, to include non-trivial drops in time in my 40s.

I have used TI principals to coach age group and Div III college swimmers. My work, along with the coaching of other more traditional coaches and hard work and dedication by the swimmers themselves have all resulted in very substantial improvements in swimming and drops in personal best times.

End of serious discussion. Now, on to the flame wars.

You can take or leave the marketing side of Total Immersion. It's your choice, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, consider the marketing in this context.

Who needs a program for stroke technique more desparately than any other discrete group of athletes? Triathletes.

What else do we know about triathletes? They will drop oodles of cash on gadgets and gimmicks and shoes and five figure bicycles, all chasing that elusive minute or two improvement in a race that will take them hours to finish.

In particular, they will spend several times (measured by hourly rate) more money on coaching than comparable masters swimmers. (Because of convenience issues, I chatted up a tri coach about perhaps paying to join her crew in their swim workout the once a week they do that. She had to requote me her rate twice before I realized that WAS IN FACT the once a week swim workout rate, and that these people pay hundreds of dollars, A MONTH, for the full package.) However, from my biased swimmer's point of view, the workouts are not very immaginative interval chasing.

Why's that? Because triathletes have so bought into the paradigm of more pain means more improvement that they will fire the coach if their heart rate falls below a certain level.

So, how do you get this crowd, who so clearly are highly conditioned well beyond the cardio fitness of any other group of weekend athletes on the face of the planet and the last thing they need is one more high intensity workout with lousy form, to back off of their aerobic threshold and learn how to swim without committing crimes against nature and abominations in the eyes of God?

Well, Terry Laughlin, clever man, has hit on a simple formula. He starts with a well conceived set of drills that may or may not be revolutionary. Again, you're entitled to your opinion. (And for we cheapskate swimmers, who bitch about paying $3 more in meet entry fees so that the team hosting the meet actually breaks even instead of having to subsidize it, can cleverly get the gist of it for $15-$20 on a book, and a few dollars more on videos if we want to be extravagant, complaining the whole time about why ALL the drills are not available on the web for, you know, free.)

Then he charges triathletes buckets of money for "clinics," because they don't take anything seriously if it's not ruinously expensive.

Then he hops up on his soap box, and in the idiom of Frank Zappa:

"The Mystery Man came over
An' he said: 'I'm outa-site!'
He said, for a nominal service charge,
I could reach nervonna t'nite
If I was ready, willing 'n able
To pay him his regular fee
He would drop all the rest of his pressing affairs
And devote His Attention to me

"But Gull said . . .
Look here brother,
Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?
(Now who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?)
Look here brother,
Don't you waste your time on me

"The Mystery Man got nervous
An' he fidget around a bit
He reached in the pocket of his Mystery Robe
An' he whipped out a shaving kit
Now, I thought it was a razor
An' a can of foamin' goo
But he told me right then when the top popped open
There was nothin' his box won't do
With the oil of Afro-dytee
An' the dust of the Grand Wazoo
He said:
'You might not believe this, little fella, but it'll cure your Asthma too!'

"An' Gull said . . .
Look here brother,
Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?
(Now what kind of a geroo are you anyway?)
Look here brother,
Don't you waste your time on me
Don't waste yer time . . ."

So his Terry jivin' us with his cosmik debris? Or, has he measured his audience and figured out what it will take to get them to pay attention and learn how to swim well?

Matt

gull
February 14th, 2006, 09:18 AM
It's about time someone wrote a song about me.

fatboy
February 14th, 2006, 11:26 AM
But does he have a crystal ball?

knelson
February 14th, 2006, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by gull80
There is no way to know how she would have developed in a "conventional" training program (which likely would have incorporated "TI drills" regardless).

No, of course there isn't, but wasn't Adrienne's name brought up because someone said something to the effect of "if TI is so great where are all the really fast TI swimmer?" Well, Adrienne Binder is one. You're accusing some people of waffling because they're giving credit to TI for Binder's fast swimming, but don't take away the credit when she doesn't swim as fast. Yet when someone points out a fast swimmer who was trained using TI you say "yeah, but how do we know it was the TI that made her fast?"

Pot, meet kettle.

gull
February 14th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Perhaps we could hear about the other elite swimmers trained in a TI program (whatever that means). I just found it interesting that the article about Adrienne, who is the example TI uses, was written in 2002. Why no update?

Matt S
February 14th, 2006, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Perhaps we could hear about the other elite swimmers trained in a TI program (whatever that means). I just found it interesting that the article about Adrienne, who is the example TI uses, was written in 2002. Why no update?

"I wrapped a newspaper 'round my head
So I'd look like I was Deep
I said some Mumbo Jumbos then
An' told him he was goin' to sleep
I robbed his rings
An' pocket watch
An' everything else I found
I had that sucker hypnotized
He couldn't even make a sound
I proceeded to tell him his future then
As long as he was hanging around,
I said
'The price of meat has just gone up
An' yer ol' lady has just gone down . . . '
Look here brother,
Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?
(Now is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?)
Don't you know,
You could make more money as a butcher,
So don't you waste your time on me
(Don't waste it, don't waste your time on me . . . )
Ohm shonty, ohm shonty, ohm shonty-ohm
SSHONTAY"

thewookiee
February 14th, 2006, 12:14 PM
Gull80,

If you go back in the postings, you will that after 2002, she went to swim at Auburn, where she is one of many fast swimmers.
Since she was not swimming for her club coach, that coach probably keeps up with her swimming but can't write about it now, since she isn't there on a daily basis.
Oh yea...go to the Auburn website if you want an update. There was a interview with her a few months back. So there is your update.

gull
February 14th, 2006, 12:57 PM
My point is that TI would have provided their own update had she made it to Athens. She didn't, so a follow-up piece is not particularly helpful for marketing purposes. Business is business. Look, this is a discussion forum for Masters swimming. When an organization like TI uses the terms "effortless," "revolutionary," etc. in advertising their "new" approach to swimming, it's fair game.

geochuck
February 14th, 2006, 01:15 PM
Gull it is a business and he is doing a good job, he has compiled a nice little package he now has a swim studio using endless pools. I owned and operated three indoor swimming pools, called the George Park Swimming Schools I taught or my staff taught 12,000 kids and adults swimming lessons every year, the money rolled in. But it was hard work and I earned every penny. I brought them along until they wanted to become competetive swimmers, but I would send those who required more than 1 or 2 hrs work elsewhere. They could not afford to pay me for the swim lessons to go on to the Olympics. A few did go on to swim for Canada. I have never claimed they made the Olympics because of anything I did for them.

Most of the kids were great little swimmers went to a swim team coach and were burnt out before they were 10 years of age because when a coach sees a swimmer 7 years old who can beat their 10 year olds they believe it is their chance to prove they are great coaches and work their A** off they don't realize these kids are using technique to swim so fast at a young age.

Ion Beza
February 14th, 2006, 06:16 PM
What's the point to keep on hammering this:

Originally posted by Matt S
Craig in Liverpool,

Total Immersion, just like any other well-considered program for improving stroke technique, will make you better and faster than you would be swimming your same old, same old.
...
Matt
when here:

Criticism of TI Principles (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5181&highlight=Criticism+of+Principals)

you didn't have supportive data against the counter arguments to your claim?

The point seems to be that you come supporting Total Immersion with preconceived ideas that shut down readiness to change, followed by you staying closed from learning from counter arguments, followed by you resurrecting the same preconceived ideas in a fresh thread that starts over again from zero after the previous discussion ended in no-contest.

Otherwise known as preaching Total Immersion thru:

recycling from thread to thread preconceived ideas by means of

hit and run,

but not defending these ideas on merit.

Frank Thompson
February 15th, 2006, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by gull80
Perhaps we could hear about the other elite swimmers trained in a TI program (whatever that means). I just found it interesting that the article about Adrienne, who is the example TI uses, was written in 2002. Why no update?

Gull:

Another swimmer for your reference. He is different because he is a sprinter. Joe Novak finished 10th place in the 1998 Nationals in the 50 Meter Free at :23.40 and 14th place in the 100 Meter Fly, unsure of the time. He swam for West Point and had personal bests of :20.12 and :44.10 in the 50 and 100 Yard Free.

Here is a link www.armymwr.com/portal/news/display.asp?NEWS_ID=220

He is now coaching and here are some of his thoughts about TI.

www.totalimmersion.net/2005articles/january/novak.html
www.totalimmersion.net/2005articles/february/7-habits.html

Ion Beza
February 15th, 2006, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
There's a heaping helping of irony in that statement, huh?
No.

The thread I linked has many issues -like pause in the leading arm in freestyle, neglect of Stroke Rate, discarding of kicking sets- that Total Immersion advocates and me I counter that they make a swimmer slower.

My counter arguments there remain undisputed.

There was a time in that thread to dispute my counter arguments.

Technically they remain undisputed.

Matt's post skips over these counter arguments and starts over again a new promotion of Total Immersion, from level zero.

Like no exchange of ideas and learning ever took place.

Ion Beza
February 15th, 2006, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
Gull:

Another swimmer for your reference. He is different because he is a sprinter. Joe Novak finished 10th place in the 1998 Nationals in the 50 Meter Free at :23.40 and 14th place in the 100 Meter Fly, unsure of the time. He swam for West Point and had personal bests of :20.12 and :44.10 in the 50 and 100 Yard Free.
...

Joe Novak was also coached by Dave Salo at Nova in Irvine.

To whom do you attribute his results?

And, are we going to declare now that tenths of coaches who groom faster swimmers than Joe Novak with methods opposite to Total Immersion -like no pause in freestyle, higher and higher Stroke Rate, kicking sets with a board-, they are all more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary?

Coaches like Murray Stevens -who produced many Olympians, including Michael Phelps-, John Carew -who produced Olympian Kieren Perkins-, Denis Cottrel -who produces Grant Hackett-, Doug Frost -who produced Ian Thorpe-, Stephane Widmar -who produces Libby Lenton, the new World Record holder in the 100 meter freestyle-, Genady Touretski -who produced Alex. Popov-, Mike Bottom -who produces Gary Hall Jr. and many other Olympians-, Rick de Mont -who produces Roland Schoeman and Rik Neethling-, Nort Thornton -who produced Matt Biondi-, Bill Rose -who produces Larsen Jensen-, Mark Schubert -who produces Erik Vendt-, Sam Freas, Dave Salo -who produces Jason Lezak-, Dick Schoulberg.

If constantly over many decades producing Olympians -like Murray Stevens does- that is too revolutionary for Total Immersion, then are we going to declare that high school and age group swimming coaches who produce with methods opposite to Total Immersion teenagers swimming the 100 yards freestyle in 43 and 44 seconds, are they more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary?

Last year Brophy Prep in Arizona did that.

Before last year, Xavier in Ohio did that.

scyfreestyler
February 15th, 2006, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
People used to swear by the Atkins diet also.
And people used to think the earth was flat.

And people used to think processed asbestos would not hurt you.

People used to think and swear by a lot of things. Big deal.

Matt S
February 16th, 2006, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
There's a heaping helping of irony in that statement, huh?

Geek,

Thanks, my feelings exactly.

Matt

Frank Thompson
February 16th, 2006, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Joe Novak was also coached by Dave Salo at Nova in Irvine.

To whom do you attribute his results?

And, are we going to declare now that tenths of coaches who groom faster swimmers than Joe Novak with methods opposite to Total Immersion -like no pause in freestyle, higher and higher Stroke Rate, kicking sets with a board-, they are all more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary?

Coaches like Murray Stevens -who produced many Olympians, including Michael Phelps-, John Carew -who produced Olympian Kieren Perkins-, Denis Cottrel -who produces Grant Hackett-, Doug Frost -who produced Ian Thorpe-, Stephane Widmar -who produces Libby Lenton, the new World Record holder in the 100 meter freestyle-, Genady Touretski -who produced Alex. Popov-, Mike Bottom -who produces Gary Hall Jr. and many other Olympians-, Rick de Mont -who produces Roland Schoeman and Rik Neethling-, Nort Thornton -who produced Matt Biondi-, Bill Rose -who produces Larsen Jensen-, Mark Schubert -who produces Erik Vendt-, Sam Freas, Dave Salo -who produces Jason Lezak-, Dick Schoulberg.

If constantly over many decades producing Olympians -like Murray Stevens does- that is too revolutionary for Total Immersion, then are we going to declare that high school and age group swimming coaches who produce with methods opposite to Total Immersion teenagers swimming the 100 yards freestyle in 43 and 44 seconds, are they more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary?

Last year Brophy Prep in Arizona did that.

Before last year, Xavier in Ohio did that.

What is the point to keep on hammering this? That is why at the beginning of this thread I linked the past threads so we could spare a trip down memory lane. In fact, I referenced a thread on the USA Swimming site "Terry Laughlin Enough Already" that you are fimilar with because I believe we are going nowhere with this and we just keep repeating the same things that have been said for the last year.

The reason I brought the link stories about Adrienne Binder and Joe Novak in this discussion was that Craig III and Gull wanted to know if there were elite swimmers using these TI methods to valid there training philosophy and swimming success. As Gull said, TI does not have a patent on their drills and they package a swim product and successfully market that product. The customer of this market is usually novice swimmers, lap swimmers, and triathletes.

I never said that Total Immersion was revolutionary. And I don't dispute all of the coaches and swimmers you list as being successful with other methods that could possibly be called revolutionary. The whole point of adding the link stories was not to dispute any findings but to see a view point from someone who swam at a top level and what there coaches tell us about that success.

What I found interesting about Joe Novak was not about his success or lack of it in swimming, but his ideas about TI and why he was converted or born again so to speak about TI and his swimming. He now coaches using the TI principals and he incorporates his swimming experiences with those principals. That angle was not discussed here and that is why I linked the stories. Just another opinion, take it or leave it.

I can't really comment on his results because I don't think Joe competed much with David Salo at Nova. There is a swimming tracking website where you can track his results but I can't think of the name of the site right now. I know he didn't swim the 2004 Olympic Trials and I believe he swam some USA National meets before that time. Maybe his service obligations got in the way, who knows. From the articles, I believe he is coaching with TI now.

aquageek
February 16th, 2006, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
What is the point to keep on hammering this?

When did he ever need a point to continue incessant hammering?

geochuck
February 16th, 2006, 04:02 PM
We seem to be on the who has he produced kick. My coach taught over a 60 thousand kids to swim and 8 or 9 Olympians. I respect him more for his teaching skills than his Olympian production.

As you know I am not a fan of TI but let us respect what he Terry has done.

My Coach Jimmy Thompson
The Hamilton Aquatic Club began as an informal group in the late 1920's and was officially formed in 1932. Its members strongly influenced the organization of the aquatic portion of the First British Empire Games held in Hamilton, Ontario in 1930. As an umbrella association that included water polo, diving, open water swimming and competitive swimming it's adopted policy was to ensure that all athletes have the opportunity to participate regardless of financial status.

Jimmy Thompson became the first coach of the Hamilton Aquatic Club in 1932. He devoted over 30 years of his life teaching over sixty thousand children how to swim. He was also credited for developing some of Canada's finest swimmers, divers and water polo players and syncronized swimmers.

The strength of the Hamilton Aquatic Club was that it was always operated on a strong volunteer basis. The longest serving volunteer member was the Hall of Famer Jack McCormick. A founding member and athlete, Jack served the club later as a coach and administrator until when his health did not allow him to continue.

Among the achievements by the club's members are Canadian and World Records, Olympic athletes and coaches, and two Canadian starters at an Olympic Games. several swimers, sycronized swimmers waterpolo players . The club's success is well measured by the number of members who have been included into the Ontario Aquatic Hall of Fame, among them, Jimmy Thompson, Jack McCormick, George Larson, Robert Thompson, and David Hart. Other notable members are Irene MacDonald, Gerry Thomas, Patty Thompson, George Steplock, Dan Sherry, George Park, Tom, Thurlow Park and Margaret Park
just to name a few.

mattson
February 16th, 2006, 05:19 PM
When we are discussing training styles, what are the widely known alternatives to TI (besides "max yardage, conditioning" type practices)?

TI provides a common starting point. We know it works at least at the "can change bad, to decent or good swimmer" level, so it has some merit. (I do not want to get sucked into pointless arguments of "how good".)

So what are the alternatives that are widely known? And I don't mean "swim hard but still work on technique", because that tells you a goal, but not how to get there.

gull
February 16th, 2006, 05:44 PM
There you have it. Coaches who do not subscribe to the TI method all just advocate mindless yardage. Fine. Show me one Olympian produced by a TI program. Oh, I forgot, we musn't use the Olympics as a benchmark.

gull
February 16th, 2006, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
I never said that Total Immersion was revolutionary.

But that is exactly what TI claims to be.

Ion Beza
February 16th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Matt S
Geek,

Thanks, my feelings exactly.

Matt
I know you have feelings.

But can you think the data?

geochuck
February 16th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Gull you are right most coaches use mindless yardage and mindless drills.

Ion Beza
February 16th, 2006, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
What is the point to keep on hammering this?
...
The reason I brought the link stories about Adrienne Binder and Joe Novak in this discussion was that Craig III and Gull wanted to know if there were elite swimmers using these TI methods to valid there training philosophy and swimming success.
...

My point is that Joe Novak is not elite enough to make him a commercial that validates Total Immersion.

Many swimmers at N.C.A.A. in 2005 went 41.xx seconds per 100.

Novak's 44 in the 100 free would barely qualify for N.C.A.A. Division I.

Zillions of swimmers are coached to be faster than Novak's 44, with methods contrary to Total Immersion.

One 41.xx per 100 free is Fred Bousquet -of the 18.74 per 50 free fame- coached differently than Total Immersion by David Marsh at Auburn.

If Novak's 44 per 100 free is Total Immersion's publicity for revolutionary coaching, then many faster than him who are coached in opposition to Total Immersion they are advertising better and more revolutionary coaching than Total Immersion.

Below N.C.A.A., at high school level in 2005, 16-year old Alex. Forbes from Lyman in Florida went 20.22 in 50 free and 44.42 in 100 free.
17-year old and yet to fully develop physically Alex Righi from Brophy Prep in Arizona under coach Jon Kopas, swam in 2005 a 50 in 20.31 and a 100 in 44.76.

What about 15 year old Jake Allen from Davis High School in California, and his 20.64 in 50 yards free?

Isn't there a whole world out there that is more revolutionary than Total Immersion and opposite to Total Immersion?

It seems to me it is.

And is better to learn from the world of best results.

scyfreestyler
February 16th, 2006, 06:13 PM
A couple of things to keep in mind...

1) Not every swimmer's success is directly linked to his or her coach. Sure, good coaching is important but so is work ethic and a persons physiological makeup.

2) If TI is not revolutionary and simply uses methods from other coaches wrapped up in a flashy package, then by bashing TI you are effectively bashing those from whom the ideas originally came from.

Whatever the case may be, TI has quite a following and seems to be helping a lot of people improve their swimming. If anybody should appreciate that on this forum it should be Gull80, the cardiologist. Every time TI gets another person in the pool they could very well be keeping them out of the ER and out of Gull's office.

Ion Beza
February 16th, 2006, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by scyfreestyler

...
2) If TI is not revolutionary and simply uses methods from other coaches wrapped up in a flashy package, then by bashing TI you are effectively bashing those from whom the ideas originally came from.
...

You miss the point.

Total Immersion borrows points from elsewhere, but is a mixture of good and bad that has declared war on the non followers of its cult.

It advised adult swimmers to learn Total Immersion and stay away from Masters swimming.

At the 2004 Short Course World Championships in Indianapolis -right after the 2004 Athens Olympics-, Terry Laughlin -the author of Total Immersion and a profiteer- started to talk smack about the U.S. swimmers.

It prompted successful coaches to ask what are Laughlin's credentials.

geochuck
February 16th, 2006, 06:51 PM
Ion Beza

Right on ask any coach what he thinks about another coach they will always tell you the truth. I remember when the college coaches were asking me to swim at their schools they all told the truth (they were the best).

Please ask them them and report. Then tell us what they said then let us tell you what we think about them.

I saw a movie once it was The Never Ending Story.

scyfreestyler
February 16th, 2006, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
You miss the point.

Total Immersion borrows points from elsewhere, but is a mixture of good and bad that has declared war on the non followers of its cult.

It advised adult swimmers to learn Total Immersion and stay away from Masters swimming.

At the 2004 Short Course World Championships in Indianapolis -right after the 2004 Athens Olympics-, Terry Laughlin -the author of Total Immersion and a profiteer- started to talk smack about the U.S. swimmers.

It prompted successful coaches to ask what are Laughlin's credentials.

Where is this documented?

IndyGal
February 17th, 2006, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

It advised adult swimmers to learn Total Immersion and stay away from Masters swimming.


At the TI clinic I took, I was encouraged to join Masters.

thewookiee
February 17th, 2006, 09:11 AM
Indygal is correct. TI has never discouraged any from joining a master's team.
What people are told at workshops to step away from a masters team for a bit to concentrate on developing the skills they spent the weekend learning.
The concern for newer swimmers or swimmers that struggle, is that after a workshop, if they go right back to their teams, they will fall back into their old habits and wasted their weekend and money.
After they have spent sometime away, learning the drill progession and convert over to swimming, then they are encouraged to go back and swim with their teams.

aquageek
February 17th, 2006, 10:20 AM
It would be completely nonsensical for TI to discouage folks from swimming in a Masters program. First, it's the only national "league" for adult swimmers beyond the glory of speedy youth (with the exception of a few great swimmers such as Smith and Lehman, who could probably still beat 99% of the kids out there). Second, it's a social network where people can promote TI, should they find it useful to them.

I'm not sure why TI gets folks so riled up. It's just a training program, albeit with a slight chip implantation.

MichiganHusker
February 17th, 2006, 10:38 AM
Can we please close this thread and put an end to this misery!?!

thewookiee
February 17th, 2006, 11:01 AM
LOL...and you wonder why people get riled up about it, esp. after you ending comment, though it is funny.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 05:21 PM
To:

Originally posted by scyfreestyler
Where is this documented?
and to Indy Gal:

it pays to read first the links that are brought up, as doing the pre requisite homework.

IndyGal
February 17th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
To:

and to Indy Gal:

it pays to read first the links that are brought up, as doing the pre requisite homework.

Did you mean to address this to me?

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Ion Beza

Right on ask any coach what he thinks about another coach they will always tell you the truth.
...

Still:

what are Terry Laughlin's credentials?

Compared to hundreds of swimmers and coaches with faster results that validate their opposite methods.

For example the thread I linked has rotary style -in opposition to the Front Quadrant's pause advocated by Total Immersion- in Alex. Popov and Ian Thorpe.

I can also dig a quote about rotary style and kick sets training of Jodie Henry -a gold medalist in 53.52 in the 100 free at the 2004 Athens Olympics- from coach Shannon Rollason.

Please no more Matt's "...Total Immersion...will make you faster and better than you would be swimming your same old..." because that's hermetic and absent minded to news and data posted here for years.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 05:43 PM
Robert Kiphuth could not even swim and coached http://www.ishof.org/65rkiphuth.html There are a lot of good coaches teaching kids who have no more than a red cross certificate. Credentials the worst teachers I have known have all kinds of credentials but they know nothing.

dorothyrde
February 17th, 2006, 05:47 PM
One of the best HS coaches C-U has ever seen was a football coach who was asked to help out with the swim team. He knew how to get boys to come out for the team and how to get the best out of them. He recently retired, and all the swimmers miss him, although the new coach is doing quite well and was a swimmer!

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Robert Kiphuth could not even swim and coached http://www.ishof.org/65rkiphuth.html There are a lot of good coaches teaching kids who have no more than a red cross certificate. Credentials the worst teachers I have known have all kinds of credentials but they know nothing.
Your Kiputh didn't coach 2000 and 2004 Olympians.

Coaches who know how to train fast swimmers, they coached 2000 and 2004 Olympians.

Kiputh's inputs are legendary, but obsolete now to fast swimming worldwide.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 05:50 PM
Dare I say what I think. I would be barred for life.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Dare I say what I think. I would be barred for life.
You can dare say it to my face, one on one.

scyfreestyler
February 17th, 2006, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
To:

and to Indy Gal:

it pays to read first the links that are brought up, as doing the pre requisite homework.

I am looking for documentation regarding Terry Laughlin talking "smack" as you say, about Olympic athletes. I am not going to read through pages and pages of old threads to find your elusive documentation.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 05:56 PM
Even if I said it face to face, I don't think you would understand it.

scyfreestyler
February 17th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Only if you dare say it to my face, one on one.

Oh please!

I am having flashbacks to my Freshman year of High School!

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by scyfreestyler

...
I am not going to read through pages and pages of old threads to find your elusive documentation.
It's your loss.

IndyGal
February 17th, 2006, 06:10 PM
For all the debate, no one has addressed the fact that there is no real alternative to TI for most of their students. It's all well and good to praise Murray Stevens and Doug Frost, and if either suddenly offered a clinic for average swimmers I'd be first in line to sign up... heck, they could name their price, charge double what TI does. But they are not going to work with me, now are they? I subscribe to all the swimming magazines and I have seen loads of ads for swim camps and clinics for elite swimmers, but so far TI is the only one who has stepped up to the intermediate-swimmer market.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Even if I said it face to face, I don't think you would understand it.
I won't understand it when it's without merit.

scyfreestyler
February 17th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
It's your loss.

Yes Ion, I am sure it is. :rolleyes:

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by IndyGal

...
It's all well and good to praise Murray Stevens and Doug Frost, and if either suddenly offered a clinic for average swimmers I'd be first in line to sign up...

I read in Swimming News magazine that Murray Stevens coaches Masters too, at N.B.A.C. in Maryland.

He has genuinely consistently built over decades a factory of fast swimmers and knowledgeable coaches like Bowman and Yetter.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Good news folks, he won't be around much longer. Anticipate early bloomer and immigrant discussions in the next few posts. It's predictable.
And your contribution to swimming information is?

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 06:15 PM
I don't know why any one would want to read those old items they are all old basketball terms.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
I don't know why any one would want to read those old items...
To catch up in learning and discuss on a par, maybe?

The links are posted for this purpose, anyway.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 06:30 PM
Is there any way to dicuss them with you or our our opinins worthless and only yours are of value. I still count them as old basketball terms

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Is there any way to dicuss them with you or our our opinins worthless and only yours are of value...
Sure.

Talk technical data.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 06:35 PM
I am afraid that not much you say has anything to do with technical data.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Getting you so fired up that you start to shimy, shake and take on dorothyde in the 500, and LOSE.

Not to mention the inevitable immigrant thing you bring up in every single thread, bar none.

It's like chuming the waters, so easy, yet so fun.
I still don't see swimming data from you about the merits of Total Immersion.

I see that you try hard to make your posts into personal attacks.

You have no swimming data and contribution on Total Immersion -or anything else in swimming-.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
I am afraid that not much you say has anything to do with technical data.
That's what happens when my data is beyond you.

Like the rotary style and its results of fast swimming.

In contrast to Front Quadrant's pause in Total Immersion.

And more.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 06:42 PM
The only thing I know is that a lot of people are buying what Terry has to sell than even considering whatever you are trying to sell.

I don't have any proof or technical data on this but believe it to be true.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:48 PM
So what if people are buying?

The earth is flat, was popular too.

But the idea of the flat earth didn't work well.

mbmg3282
February 17th, 2006, 06:49 PM
Gentlemen,

The personal attacks on this thread need to stop now. It is fine for you to disagree with each other's position, but let's keep the discussion about TI and not other topics. If you are unable to do this, I will need to shut down this thread and several of you will lose your priviledges to post here.

Mark Gill
USMS Vice President of Member Services

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 06:50 PM
Very technical the world is round we should all swim in circles.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 06:51 PM
Sorry Gill I will no longer reply to any posts that are not technical.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Very technical the world is round we should all swim in circles.
Swimming in circles, doesn't matter.

Swimming fast in circles, matters.

And we keep records of swimming fast in circles.

The benefit of swimming fast in circles is athleticism.

mattson
February 17th, 2006, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by gull80
There you have it. Coaches who do not subscribe to the TI method all just advocate mindless yardage.

Gull, I wasn't being rhetorical or condescending. (And if you re-read it without going with your reflex response, you'd see that.) That was a real request for information. Many people are familiar with TI. People are also familiar with grinding out yardage. I was asking if there were other common references we could use, in case we wanted to move the argument beyond TI.

(I've mentioned Colwin's books, which I'm sure many people don't have. Others have mentioned Maglischo's book, which I don't have.)

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by IndyGal
Did you mean to address this to me?
I am responding to this to prove that I am a poster here who writes with supportive data and with links that are a pre-requisite to discuss on a par.

I do once this proof of the value of pre-requisites, as a lesson to learn by posters who write without supportive data and don't do their pre-requisite readings first.

This post is in support of my claim that Total Immersion says to stay away from Masters.

I posted this link in my first post of this thread:

Criticism of TI Principles (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5181&highlight=Criticism+of+Principals)

as a pre-requisite to discuss on a par.

Two posters here -not you IndyGal, but geochuk and scyfree (formerly 330man)- whine in this thread that reading the pre-requisite is not a loss to them and to the discussion.

I am proving from the link I posted, in the excerpt below, that these two posters post no-good.

They whine about the pre-requisite links that are posted in the thread, but they drag everybody behind in knowledge with their negativity towards education and learning before stating something:

-note my italics-

Originally posted by Ken Classen

...
However all this being said there is an arrogance among the purveyors and practitioners of TI. A certain fundamentalist approach that there way is the only way. I used to encourage some swimmers to go to a TI clinic. However after the clinic I found them in the lap lanes with there fist gloves and not coming to master’s practice. Why? They were told in the clinic to avoid master’s workouts,...
...

scyfreestyler
February 17th, 2006, 08:09 PM
Two posters here -not you, IndyGal, but geochuk and scyfree formerly 330man- whined that reading the pre-requisite is not a loss to them and to the discussion.

I am proving from that link with the excerpt below that these two posters are no gooders.

They whine about the pre-requisite links that are posted, but they drag everybody behind in knowledge with their negativity about education and learning before stating something:

-note my italics- [/B]

Thanks for declaring me a no gooder Ion, whatever that means.

Anyhow, one persons opinion of TI is hardly justification for you to say that Terry talked "smack" about Olympians or that he advises swimmers to avoid Masters groups. I am still waiting for some verifiable proof that these things actually occured.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 08:13 PM
I proved you didn't read the pre-requisite that I linked, first things first before posting.

There are numerous examples.

Originally posted by scyfreestyler

...TI is hardly justification for you to say that Terry talked "smack" about Olympians...
More reason to you to do your pre-requisite homework readings, first.

First, as in reading and learning the pre-requisites linked before you post.

scyfreestyler
February 17th, 2006, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I proved you didn't read the pre-requisite that I linked, first things first before posting.

There are numerous examples.

More reason to you to do your pre-requisite homework readings, first.

First, as in reading and learning the pre-requisites linked before you post.

Ion,

You know which parts of the thread contain the information to support your case, allegedly. Why don't you pull them out? Copy and paste them perhaps. The current method being employed seems fishy. Whenever I know of specific evidence to support my position I am the first one to present it, not make people dig to find it. To each his own.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 08:24 PM
It is documented in that link.

geochuk says I post no technical data.

But he misses an ocean of data:

.) study first;

.) write afterwards.

Like me.

scyfreestyler
February 17th, 2006, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
It is documented in that link.

Study first.

Write afterwards.

Like me.

Okay, I will take that as a concession.

Ion Beza
February 17th, 2006, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by scyfreestyler
Okay, I will take that as a concession.
Sure I concede that you don't learn your pre-requisites.

scyfreestyler
February 17th, 2006, 08:30 PM
Good luck all. I'm out of this thread. Enjoy.:D

gull
February 17th, 2006, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by mattson
Gull, I wasn't being rhetorical or condescending.

Sorry, but that's how it came across to me. Look, there are scores of successful coaches who don't package and market their methods (not that there's anything wrong with that). As for reference books, I like Maglischo's Swimming Fastest, among others. But it's a lot bigger than the TI publications, so you can't read it cover to cover in an afternoon or slip it into your swim bag.

dorothyrde
February 17th, 2006, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Sorry, but that's how it came across to me. Look, there are scores of successful coaches who don't package and market their methods (not that there's anything wrong with that). As for reference books, I like Maglischo's Swimming Fastest, among others. But it's a lot bigger than the TI publications, so you can't read it cover to cover in an afternoon or slip it into your swim bag.

It is also very technical, so a newby to swimming would have a hard time getting through it(speaking as when I was a newbie and picked it up the first time). It has taken many readings, of different chapters, and still there is much to learn from this book.

It think that is another reason why TI appeals. I sat down and read it cover to cover in an afternoon, understood the components well enough to start trying things out from it. So someone who is new to swimming, is stuggling with trying to get across the pool can pick up TI and feel success right away. To me, I see nothing wrong with getting more people in the water to swim. There are more reasons to swim besides swimming the fastest 500 at Nationals and TI fills a need in that market.

MichiganHusker
February 17th, 2006, 10:25 PM
OK, now I'm confused. I thought both George & Ion were anti-TI. When did you two start disagreeing? :)

Let's talk about something really fun like looking for Johnny Weir's aura? Apparently it is on a bus somewhere in Italy.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 10:35 PM
I am not a fan of TI I am a swimmer who swam the way I do for years, TI is the way I have been swimming since 1952. Not arriving there by Terry's drills but getting there naturally.

geochuck
February 17th, 2006, 10:40 PM
Just to let you know that Swimdownhill is a term that Matt Man told me about in 1952. It was not a term invented recently or by Terry.

gull
February 18th, 2006, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
To me, I see nothing wrong with getting more people in the water to swim. There are more reasons to swim besides swimming the fastest 500 at Nationals and TI fills a need in that market.

I agree 100% with that statement.

But if I want to swim the fastest 500 at Nationals (actually I'd be happy with a top ten finish), TI is not the answer. At least in my opinion.

dorothyrde
February 18th, 2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by gull80
I agree 100% with that statement.

But if I want to swim the fastest 500 at Nationals (actually I'd be happy with a top ten finish), TI is not the answer. At least in my opinion.

I think the answer is what works for the individual swimmer. If a swimmer believes that TI works for them, and applies it....and THEN puts in the training required to swim at that level, then it works. But TI alone, no, heavy training alone, no, I think to be at the elite level, there are so many factors that contribute to being there. And one is just plain talent.

geochuck
February 18th, 2006, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by gull80
I agree 100% with that statement.

But if I want to swim the fastest 500 at Nationals (actually I'd be happy with a top ten finish), TI is not the answer. At least in my opinion.
If you can't make the top ten you had better do something. Here is a place to help http://www.littleotterswim.com/

gull
February 18th, 2006, 12:58 PM
Thanks, George.

For the record, I am not "anti-TI," but I object to their marketing claims (repeated on this forum by TI advocates). And I don't buy into his swimming theories. As drills go, I suppose they're OK.

geochuck
February 18th, 2006, 01:04 PM
I hope you took it as the pun I meant it to be. I really had fun searching for a swim school close by.

Ion Beza
February 18th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by gull80

...
For the record, I am not "anti-TI,"...

Me, I am anti-Total Immersion.

The thread I linked explains why I am displeased with it:

from the information available in the public domain, Total Immersion is dishonest and a cult.

When geochuck says that swimmers were swimming like described in Total Immersion since 1952, well they don't swim like in 1952 now in 2006.

Very different.

The rotary style in freestyle for example, didn't exist and is in vogue now.

Swimmers like Felipe Magnini (Italy) and Brent Hayden (Canada) are even not freaks of the nature, at 185 centimeters (close to 6'1") and 72 kilograms (about 158 pounds), but they are holding world Olympic rankings in 50 meters, 100 meters, and 200 meters freestyle.

And their yardage -that is deemed in this thread as meaningless by people who cannot race beyond 50, and even in their race of 50 these people need to learn much more how to improve- is the key of success.

geochuck
February 18th, 2006, 01:56 PM
I said I have been swimming like that and I could only train about 800 yards a day and could stay with any swimmers of that time. They were swimming 5000 to 7000 yards a day and some 10000. I was faster for the 100 when I was 37 years old than when I was 20(in 1952) as I was able to swim more distance.

Hey Ion after my knee is healed meet at the pool and I will show you how to swim a 100.

Swim Smarter looks like an all TI club.

Ion Beza
February 18th, 2006, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by geochuck

...
I was faster for the 100 when I was 37 years old than when I was 20(in 1952) as I was able to swim more distance.
I know.

I read your saga and involvement in open water races in the U.K. forum.

But it is a changing world.

You are satisfied to compete against people from your era.

The key is to learn from the people of this era.

They will grow my age and beyond, into your age, redifine aging and eventually explode the records in your age group.

Better to learn from them now.

geochuck
February 18th, 2006, 02:07 PM
Swim Smarter same old same old looks Like TI to me.

Ion Beza
February 18th, 2006, 02:16 PM
Looks and acts like Total Immersion.

More power to me, who is exposed to a variety of methods and selects the cream from many.

I train for lifetime bests.

geochuck
February 18th, 2006, 02:23 PM
I will never reach my life time bests again but it looks like you will set some unbeatable times,. How soon will it be that you set the new world record or surpass my slow times.

Ion Beza
February 18th, 2006, 02:24 PM
You insist to compare with me?

Be careful what you ask for.

I know more about you -from reading the U.K. forum for example- than I let know here so far.

And I am game.

Sabretooth Tiger
February 18th, 2006, 02:24 PM
TI, SCHMEE I

Gull writes: "But if I want to swim the fastest 500 at Nationals (actually I'd be happy with a top ten finish), TI is not the answer. At least in my opinion."

Dude, remember the tortoise and the hare? That's the philosophy I'm following. I figure I'm a guaranteed lock on a top 10 national finish if I keep competing once I hit 70. All we gotta do is outlive the competition dude!

21 years and the world is mine . . . . (insert maniacal laughter here)

Shhh . . . don't tell anyone . . .

:D

geochuck
February 18th, 2006, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
You insist to compare with me?

Be careful what you ask for.

I am game.
Très désolé, je renonce.

I hope your time has improved since last time I saw you swim for the 50 Ion Beza 31.84

old dog
February 18th, 2006, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
You insist to compare with me?

Be careful what you ask for.

I know more about you -from reading the U.K. forum for example- than I let know here so far.

And I am game.

This sounds like a threat to me.
What is your point?
More insults and personal attacks?
Is this your "data"?

geochuck
February 18th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Thanks old dog, I am an open book and anyone can say whatever they want about me. His words run right off my back.

He is 43 or 44 years old and I would be happy to race him in a 50 or a 100 free or fly any time after I can get back in the water after my knee surgery maybe on May 19th when I turn 73. If he beats me that is fine I have been beaten by a few great swimmers.

jadams
February 18th, 2006, 08:37 PM
I went to one of their workshops in NC, taught by someone else. It was a bunch of triathletes only interested in freestyle. I get too cold at these swim camps, standing around in cold water. I'd rather swim.

chaos
February 19th, 2006, 12:20 AM
this weekend full of triathletes only interested in freestyle was not a four stroke clinic? i am assuming.

KaizenSwimmer
February 19th, 2006, 05:13 AM
Dave Barra alerted me to this. The level of controversy is dismaying. Likewise the degree of sheer misinformation. If I can speak for myself...

The mission I have chosen for TI is to get more people to share my deep passion for swimming. I figure that if people are truly passionate about swimming they will swim more, enjoy it more, be more engaged by it, and gain the full range of physical, spiritual and emotional benefits.

I'll be 55 y.o. in a few weeks. I've been swimming for 40 years, coaching for 33 and teaching intensively for 16. And here I am at 5 am on a swimming web site...because I wake up every morning grateful that I've gotten to spend my life focused on swimming and surrounded by people who feel the same.

Is TI "revolutionary?" It is certainly paradigm shifting. "Revolutionary" was a word in a book title, chosen -- along with other words and various graphic elements -- by my editor at Simon & Schuster for maximum impact when browsed on a shelf amongst 1000s of books at B&N or other stores.

Do we claim credit for Adrienne Binder...or shirk blame? The entire point of the article on Adrienne was to point out an alternative way of developing age group swimmers -- one that focused on teaching movement quality, over the more common one of developing work capacity. The point of the article was that when you focus on developing movement quality, you don't necessarily shirk the development of work capacity. When you focus on developing work capacity -- unless the swimmer is gifted with superior instincts -- in too many cases the development of movement quality is neglected. The article was timely when published because she had just swum the 3rd fastest 1650 in history, despite being developed in a program of very modest yardage. Making or not making the Olympic team had no bearing on the point in the article. Also it's worth noting that some swimmers are far more successful in short course, than long course settings. Adrienne was one.

Joe Novak did indeed swim for 18 months with Dave Salo, after graduating from West Point, as a member of the Army's World Class Athlete Program. During that time he gave 100% of his time, energy and attention to swimming. During the three years I coached him, he had to squeeze in swim training among the extraordinary demands of being a cadet. During his 18 months swimming in a more traditional program -- not yardage oriented but one in which "quality" was defined far more by effort level than movement economy -- he never approached the times he did at West Point, where he improved from a best time of 49.1 for 100 Free as a plebe (pre-TI) to a best of 44.1 his senior year. Now that he's coaching an age group team, Joe has chosen to go the TI path 100% and is not emulating what he did with Irvine Nova. Take from that whatever you wish.

Did I "talk smack" about USA Swimmers at the ASCA Clinic during the 2004 World Short Course Championships? No. I compared highly successful race strategies employed by several USA swimmers at that meet -- controlled Stroke Rate and lower stroke counts in the early stages, leaving room for increases in both in the latter stages -- with less successful race strategies by other swimmers who "overswam" the first half of the race. Which was a brief pretext (2 or 3 minutes) to a far lengthier presentation (50+ minutes) on how to train with stroke count control as a focus. That presentation was received enthusiastically and I was told by a dozen or more coaches that it was the most useful hour they spent that week. Take from that whatever you wish, but let's at least deal in facts not innuendo.

And finally, have I ever coached or developed world class swimmers? Since you ask, yes I have. I coached age group clubs from 1975 to 1988. During that time I took athletes to every US Olympic Trials from 1980 to 1988. Nearly all were mid-teens, not adults. A fair number made world rankings and in a period of 18 months in 1981-82, athletes I coached took ten #1 NAG rankings in the 11-12 and 13-14 age groups. At the same time, we had an unranked 10 y.o. on that team (playing t-ball and soccer as well and being brought along slowly) named Greg Burgess who went on to break NCAA and American records in the 200-400 IM and win the silver medal in Barcelona in 200 IM.

All of which has no bearing whatsoever on the work I do today. I have great respect for the coaches of elite and Olympic athletes -- in particular I'm a huge fan of Eddie Reese, who I am privileged to call a friend. However our focus is not on elite athletes but on providing a high level of encouragement and guidance for "average" adult swimmers, who seldom have access to the resources and support enjoyed by elite athletes.

Notwithstanding the above, I will give absolutely no quarter in saying that the TI paradigm also works with exceptional effectiveness for any athlete using it in an informed way in pursuit of high performance. I'm an avid competitor in USMS distance and OW events and will swim at Nats in May and every OW national championship I can make this summer. I will happily submit my own performances for any examination or judgement people care to make on them.

What does "TI paradigm" mean in this context? Well because of a surgery and an injury, I've been unable to "train" for about 9 of the last 13 months and have had to replace replace harder work with "examined" swimming.

"Examined" means mainly that I focus primarily on heightened awareness of how I'm working with the water, seeking to achieve progressively more subtle control, perhaps akin to working with the water like a jeweler adjusting a fine timepiece, rather than a laborer breaking rocks. While my physical capabilities will inescapably decline with age -- though I do all I can to minimize that decline -- my self-awareness and "physical wisdom" can certainly increase. And I'm learning that, to a far greater extent in water than on land, an increase in awareness can more than compensate for a decrease in aerobic capacity, strength, etc.

Where traditional or conventional training is mainly about working longer and harder to increase work capacity, I have two themes in mind at virtually every practice:
1) To accomplish my goal for each set (and I do have a clear intention for every set) with as little effort as possible. Even when the set is meant to be a "quality" effort the muscle I aim to work hardest is my "concentration muscle."
2) To do whatever it takes during the practice to swim better than I ever have in my life. That's a high bar to cross but that keeps my attention keenly focused.

It is this mindset, not whether you do a particular set of drills that makes a training session "TI" in nature. And this is why we believe TI is not just for beginners. We really try to encourage everyone, no matter how average they may be, to train with an "elite level mindset."

If any of that makes TI an Evil Empire, then this forum must be Bizarro World.

gull
February 19th, 2006, 06:40 AM
I don't recall any posts here referring to TI as an "Evil Empire." What I have seen (and participated in) is a discussion of the relative merits of TI training for Masters swimmers. The thread is entitled: "What do you think of Total Immersion?" Like some others here, I have argued that TI is more appropriate for novices, lap swimmers, triathletes, etc. In fact, you state: "... our focus is not on elite athletes but on providing a high level of encouragement and guidance for "average" adult swimmers, who seldom have access to the resources and support enjoyed by elite athletes." To be competitive in USMS, I believe it takes hard work, and I have yet to meet anyone in the top ten who disagrees. Finally, while I'm not sure this would be considered "examined swimming," as we were completing our 200s yesterday, descending to En3 and race pace, our coach was videotaping us, pointing out errors in our stroke mechanics. And I didn't swim a single length without thinking about my technique, stroke rate, and pace.

geochuck
February 19th, 2006, 08:49 AM
Great Terry

I have under my restrictions of health over the years always swam to get the most out of each stroke. I find your program to be very interesting and the deeper I get into it I have begun to realize that we need you. I am not saying every one that takes one of your courses is going to the Olympics but you have changed the course of swimming.

mattson
February 19th, 2006, 09:49 AM
Anyone else notice a very sneaky trick Ion pulled? Over-generalizing is an easy mistake to make, but that doesn't mean we should agree with it. That is one of the reasons I find it very frustrating to try to have a debate with him.


Originally posted by Ion Beza
When geochuck says that swimmers were swimming like described in Total Immersion since 1952, well they don't swim like in 1952 now in 2006.

That certainly makes it sound like "TI-style" swimming was part of the general swimming population back in 1952. But if you read what he did say


Originally posted by geochuck
I am not a fan of TI I am a swimmer who swam the way I do for years, TI is the way I have been swimming since 1952. Not arriving there by Terry's drills but getting there naturally.

So we have a *single* swimmer saying he has been doing "Geochuck"-style swimming since 1952. And since he is an "elite" swimmer, I'd guess that not everyone was doing what he was doing. (Ion also fails to say what people were doing in 1952 that is different than today, unless he is implying that TI and Geochuck-styles of swimming are not done today.)

Peter Cruise
February 19th, 2006, 02:04 PM
Welcome to Bizarro World, Terry. I think this forum is typical of much internet discourse: prone to hyperbole, much efforting to Get Each Other's Goat and wildly variable attempts at humour. Most of the time it is informative, occasionally moving and yes, downright bizarre, but we like it. I can certainly see how you could be dismayed by some of the assertions re your enterprise have been thrown around and I applaud your early-morning determination to set the record straight.

A close observation of elite swimmers will reveal that whatever they do differently technique-wise, they have much in common as well; however they got there, they all exhibit great efficiency under the water and great minimization of water resistance. The work load that they carried to get there is as variable as the number of swimmers you observe. If Terry's approach allows a beginning, middle or elite swimmer to accomplish an improvement in their efficiency then how can one quarrel? There remains the application of that efficiency to achieving the swimmer's goals through using the workload philosophy that they and/or their coach chooses to apply. I do not believe that there is one Way to maximize efficiency & I don't see Terry claiming that.

scyfreestyler
February 19th, 2006, 02:44 PM
I had every intention of avoiding any more posting in this thread but with the addition of Terry's comments I thought I would add one more of my own.

Wonderful commentary Terry. However, somehow I think that certain individuals are bound and determined to belittle your program. I think that should be taken as a sure sign of success for the TI program in general.

gull
February 19th, 2006, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
I think this forum is typical of much internet discourse: prone to hyperbole...

Not unlike the TI website.

scyfreestyler
February 19th, 2006, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Not unlike the TI website.
Relentless.

aquageek
February 19th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Not unlike the TI website.

I gotta give you credit for that one.

KaizenSwimmer
February 19th, 2006, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Not unlike the TI website.

Please note the hyperbolic text and I'll remove it.

gull
February 19th, 2006, 09:07 PM
From the TI website:

Only TI teaches Fishlike Swimming. Traditional instruction focuses on pulling, kicking and endless laps. TI teaches you to swim with the effortless grace of fish by becoming one with the water. You’ll feel the difference from your very first lap of intelligent, purposeful TI practice and get more satisfaction from every lap that follows.


Only TI teaches the qualities of beautiful swimming as well as the mechanics. Swimmers come to us with the goal of swimming faster. They quickly learn that it’s far more helpful and satisfying to swim with grace, flow, and economy…and that speed will surely follow when they master ease.


Only TI teaches transformation along with fluid strokes. TI, alone among all swimming-improvement programs, teaches swimming as a practice — in the same mindful spirit as yoga or tai chi. Our students tell us that by swimming the TI way they sharpen the mind-body connection and achieve heightened self-awareness and self-mastery, leading to greater physical and mental well-being.


Only TI teaches you to master swimming as an art. TI teachers emphasize the same patient precision and refinement taught by martial arts masters. We start with simple skills and movements and progress by small, easily-mastered steps. Our students thrive on the attention to detail and the logical sequence of progressive skills.

Peter Cruise
February 19th, 2006, 11:09 PM
Really, removing 'only' from each paragraph would do the job.

Swimmr2001
February 20th, 2006, 01:02 AM
I joined a local LMSC at age 45 when I started swimming 10 years ago and struggled for three months before I found Total Immersion. Since then I've been to the Stanford Masters camp, Walnut Creek Camp, the USOTC to swim in the flume, etc., and a few other camps.

My reality is that in my short 10 years' swimming TI (which has many similarities to Stanford and the USOTC camps' curriculum) I'm one of those people in my age group who have gotten better. There are a lot of people out there who swim slower and slower every year, and now sometimes I beat them. So here's my conclusion: TI taught me how to swim. TI teaches me how to continue improving every year with new drills, new thoughts, new approaches. I'm a happy swimmer. I'm in great shape. I gota tell you, I just don't see a downside here.

I didn't swim when I was in high school/college. Gay kids weren't welcome in sports in the 60s-70s. So I never swam 10,000 yards a day with kick boards and paddles and pool buoys and the other toys. Kick boards make my neck hurt, pool buoys do what I think I ought to be able to do for myself, and I've never figured out what the paddles, or the 10,000 yards, are for. So I don't have a history of 30-year-old technique that I have to swim around in order to enjoy TI.

I like TI. It's simple. It's logical. It emphasizes the positive. It explains the why in swimming. And it is constantly changing. I've never left a TI workout frustrated, never swam a race poorly when I stuck to the TI principles.

TI is all about Terry Laughlin. And I guess if you don't like him, you won't like TI, or vice versa. My experience is that he is an easy-going guy who answers his email, remembers who you are, is excited about, and really thinks seriously about swimming day and night. He's the first to test new techniques, and the first to share them. It's easy to see why so many people are disciples.

I haven't been on these boards since the big gay discussion a few years ago, but when I read them tonight I was amazed that this guy, who I would guess sells more swimming books than anybody, is responsible for improving the times and attitudes of, I guess, thousands of swimmers, is being beat up over I'm not sure what. His success? His ability to market his company and himself?

Like all good coaches, he changes people's lives for the better. A few coaches may be lucky enough and smart enough to train an Olympian or two, and earn the respect of thousands of spectators. Terry and his coaches, however, have been lucky enough and smart enough to train thousands of swimmers, and earn their respect in the process. So while I guess a lot of coaches dream about the former, only a few are able to create reality from the latter.

KaizenSwimmer
February 20th, 2006, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
Really, removing 'only' from each paragraph would do the job.

Which I will do as soon as you, Gull or anyone else points me to the web site of another swim-improvement program that chooses to make those emphases the core of its philosophy.

That text is taken from a page that's headed "The Tao of TI." It's not hyperbole -- "Mile high stack of pancakes" is hyperbole. It's a succinct statement of our philosophy -- what is referred to in marketing as our "unique selling proposition" -- and indeed it is what makes TI unique in its approach.

Criticize me if you want for employing Marketing 101 methods; I won't plead guilty for doing what any business owner does to be successful. Besides the fact that TI is an expression of my passion for swimming, as it true of many other passion-driven entrepreneurs, and in addition to having invested probably 60,000 hours in bringing TI to where it is now, I have a responsibility for the livelihoods of quite a few people and I'm proud of operating ethically and honestly.

For me, this discussion is over. I have better uses for my time than to engage in silly arguments over trivialities -- like leaving now for our Swim Studio for a blissful hour in the Endless Pool during which I'll focus on all the things mentioned in the Tao of TI, rather than how high I can get my HR.

aquageek
February 20th, 2006, 07:19 AM
I will freely admit I had no real opinion of TI prior to this discussion. However, after reading the completely defensive and aggressive comments of the TI Tao guru, I now have some opinions.

As long as he brings up marketing 101, I will bring up another marketing 101 slogan - a fool and his money are soon parted. If anyone tells you they have the "ONLY, ONLY, ONLY" way of doing anything, they are selling snake oil and you are best served saving your money.

gull
February 20th, 2006, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Swimmr2001
I joined a local LMSC at age 45 when I started swimming 10 years ago and struggled for three months before I found Total Immersion...

I didn't swim when I was in high school/college...

TI is all about Terry Laughlin. And I guess if you don't like him, you won't like TI, or vice versa.

Have you actually read the entire thread? In the first place, I have never said I didn't like Mr. Laughlin. I've never met him. I have nothing against him personally. And I don't fault him for marketing his product and taking care of his employees. What I was doing was voicing my opinion of TI from the perspective of a Masters swimmer. This is a discussion forum, correct?

If you had read my posts, you would know that I think TI is appropriate for novices, lap swimmers, and triathletes. Mr. Laughlin admitted that this is his target audience. But will you achieve a top ten time in USMS through a TI program? I don't believe so. If that is not one of your goals, then what's your problem? Why take offense at these posts?

geochuck
February 20th, 2006, 08:46 AM
Terry - Not too many here have very high goals. They want to be ranked in the top 10 masters. I never had that goal and as you know if your goal is to be ranked top ten you will will never get there. You have to set your goals hi.

One of the gang here finished 23rd in a masters meet with a time that would rank him around 2000th place and he (not gull) is one who remarks and trys to debate on this subject.

OH OH hope I didn't do it this time???

If the Doctor OKs it, I guess I better get out of town for a while this forum is getting too hot. Mexico here I come.

IndyGal
February 20th, 2006, 09:12 AM
Personally, I'm very grateful to the swimmer at my pool who recommended TI to me (an elite swimmer, the same girl who recruited me for Masters). Her comment was "People will tell you it's bad, but it's not. Give it a try." Since I had never heard of TI until then, I wondered why she said that. Now it's becoming clearer. :rolleyes:

Peter Cruise
February 20th, 2006, 03:20 PM
Terry: I promote an even-handed discussion of the issues in this forum- your dismissal of 'only' as perhaps excessive was not; indeed, it was downright rude.

thewookiee
February 20th, 2006, 03:36 PM
Gull,

Let me ask you a question. Why do you think that TI wouldn't be good enough for someone to try to make the USMS Top Ten? You said it was your opinion but what do you base your opinion on?
Have you made an honest attempt at training with TI mind set?
I ask because you seem adamant that TI is not the way to go for success of good masters swimmers. What is the way to go then?
Please understand, this is not a personal attack, just would like clarification on your view points.

Thanks.

gull
February 20th, 2006, 07:01 PM
I read a lot (Swimming Fastest, Swim Coaching Bible, Championship Swim Training, among others). I talk to coaches and other swimmers. And I know what does and doesn't work for me. Admittedly I do not have any top ten times. But I have seen my times improve over the past year to the extent that I am swimming faster at 48 than I was at 46.

When I joined USMS three years ago, like others I wanted to believe that I could swim fast by swimming "smarter." In other words, I wouldn't have to train with the same intensity as I did twenty five years ago, instead relying on technique. I experimented with TI, lower yardage workouts, etc. What I discovered is that there aren't any shortcuts. In the past six months I lowered my 500 time by 11 seconds, my 200 by 5 seconds, both NQTs. How did this happen? I credit my training partner and my coach. We train with a lot of intensity, primarily En2 and En3, negative splitting, descending, especially 200s. It is not painless, nor is it effortless. But it is not mindless--we focus on technique at race pace, not just drill pace.

That is what I base my opinion on.

aquageek
February 20th, 2006, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by gull80
In the past six months I lowered my 500 time by 11 seconds, my 200 by 5 seconds...

I can personally attest to gull's improvement and I'M NOT REAL HAPPY ABOUT IT.

thewookiee
February 20th, 2006, 09:22 PM
gull,

Thank You for response. I appreciate it and it helps to understand one person's opinion better.

John

KaizenSwimmer
February 20th, 2006, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
they are selling snake oil and you are best served saving your money.

I can't resist pointing out that the "market" in marketing is a free one. And in a free market, when one markets effectively -- and even more so when one does employ hyperbole -- a primary risk is that more people discover when your product or service doesn't measure up to the claims you make. They will either return it or contribute to buzz that turns off other potential customers.

We back up the claims we make for TI instruction with an unconditional satisfaction guarantee. If measured by returns, since we instituted this policy, we've had to refund for returns less than .03% (approx 3 per 1000 orders) of our order volume.

If measured by the nature of the buzz on TI, the original TI book is far and away the most-often recommended, and consequently by far the best selling, book ever published on swimming. That book has never had any marketing or advertising support from the publisher, Simon & Schuster. It has become a "cult favorite" entirely bcz of word of mouth (viral marketing) by those who read it and consequently swam better and happier.

As for the question about achieving Top 10 results with a TI approach, from here on I'll let my swimming, rather than my typing on this forum, speak for me.

Sam Perry
February 20th, 2006, 11:13 PM
Can't we all agree to disagree and move on. This is about as tiring to read as the VO2 Max discussion.

Let me summarize:

Many swimmers don't like TI because of claims that seem to be a bit extreme to say the least. Many swimmers like TI because it has made them better at their sport.

One thing in common? We are all swimmers. I don't like certain coaches and like others. Isn't that the same argument?

Just because a coach makes claims that I may not agree with or even not believe doesn't mean someone else should/will have the same OPINION as I do. We are all entitled to our own opinions and that is that.

I thought we went off the deep end (notice the swimming pun) when Ion threatened a swimmer that was competing on a world class level in the 1950's. Now that was funny?! Now it has devolved into another drab I said this you said that discussion.

geochuck
February 20th, 2006, 11:21 PM
I'm with you Sam - Mexico is not a bad idea. I will, fly or drive. My travel agent is Sheila and she said George have a tequilla for Sheila, sounds good to me.

I was talking to another former Olympian today he suggested to Goswim, with Dave.

newmastersswimmer
February 21st, 2006, 10:49 AM
I just took a trip to Mexico over the Christmas holidays and had a total blast.....If you can, try and make it to the town of tequila in Jalisco (near Guadalahara).....There are about 25 tequila factories in the surrounding areas around the town of tequila....each with thier own Agave plantations....Most of them give relatively cheap tours in which you can sample all the tequila you want while on tour....I highly reccomend the Herradura tour as well as the Jose Cuervo tour.....You can try samples of some of the better 100% Agave aged tequila's as well (not just the 51% Agave unaged tequila most of us are used to in the States).....The Herradura Anejo is a very good tequila that you can buy relatively cheap there in the town of tequila and take back with you. The Herradura Supremo is perhaps the best tequila you can buy down there....but even in Mexico it will run you about $185 for a fifth!....I call it "El Aqua Del Diablo".....Anyone know what that means in English?...(besides Alex that is who lives in Mexico City).


Newmastersswimmer

geochuck
February 21st, 2006, 11:38 AM
I usually go to Boca De Iguana also in Jalisco. I have great friends in Guadalahara they have asked me to go there and do my swim school there which I am going to more than likely do. We are probably going to put in 2 Infinite pools (one indoors one out doors) there and teach all ages there. The location has been selected. I have been using an Aqua Spa here in Vancouver but prefer the Infinite Pool. http://www.infinitepool.com/

I drink very little but will certainly take your advice on the Tequilla. I believe it translates something like the water of the devil.

scyfreestyler
February 21st, 2006, 11:40 AM
Water of the Devil.

While at a bachelor party in Cabo a friend of mine was reffered to as blanco diablo by a...well, a dancer... when he refused to pay for/receive a lap dance, citing that she was overpriced and that he was mostly there to examine the dancers minds and not their bodies.

Good times.

Peter Cruise
February 21st, 2006, 03:02 PM
I guess this is now...the Total Inebriation thread.

geochuck
February 21st, 2006, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
I guess this is now...the Total Inebriation thread.
After reading some of the posts it would drive anyone to drink.

newmastersswimmer
February 21st, 2006, 03:13 PM
You have to admit that the new topic is more interesting than the old one was right?.....The rule for thread hijacking is that it's o.k. to hijack a thread when the old topic becomes overly irritating....look it up.....its a well known universal rule for all web surfers...LOL!!

Newmastersswimmer

newmastersswimmer
February 21st, 2006, 03:16 PM
While at a bachelor party in Cabo a friend of mine was reffered to as blanco diablo by a...well, a dancer... when he refused to pay for/receive a lap dance, citing that she was overpriced and that he was mostly there to examine the dancers minds and not their bodies.

originally posted by scyfreestyler (formly known as 330 man)


Its always interesting how stories like this always seem to happen to "a friend of mine"....hmmm....a friend eh?....can I now call you blancablo for short...har har!

Newmastersswimmer

p.s. blanco diablo translates to something like "Young Devil"
the reason I know this is b/c blanco is also used as a type of tequila that has not been aged long before it is bottled.....if the tequila has rested for up to a year in a barrell before it is bottled it is labeled "reposita"....and if it is aged for over 1 year....usually up to 3 - 5 years before it is bottled ...it is labeled Anejo.....thats why Herradura Anejo is better than Herradura reposito or Herradura blanco (and more expensive!).....The Herradura Supremo is aged in french oak barrels for something like 20 years.....and the Agave plants used to make the Supremo are also older than normal....like 12 years old as opposed to 8 years old.....just a few more tidbits about Tequila to bore everyone to tears...LOL!

lefty
February 21st, 2006, 04:41 PM
Blanco = white, not young!

Tequila Blanco refers to tequila that is not yellow (which is actually the appropriate color for tequila (yellow) considering what it tastes like)

newmastersswimmer
February 21st, 2006, 05:19 PM
So the dancer called him a white devil then......I guess the reason the tequila that has not aged in the barrels is called blanco is b/c the tequila only turns color after it has rested in the barrels for some length of time before it is bottled....thus I equated blanco with young.....I'm sure about the meanings of the other 2 classifications...that being reposita and anejo....blanco is always the cheapest grade of tequila....and the harshest....the longer the tequila rests (i.e. ages) in the barrels, the smoother the tequila.....100% Agave Anejo tequila tastes very good in my opinion......I get the implication that you think the yellow stuff tastes like something else thats yellow here....I have to disagree!


Newmastersswimmer

knelson
February 21st, 2006, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
I get the implication that you think the yellow stuff tastes like something else thats yellow here....I have to disagree!

Yeah, if your urine tastes like tequila I think you might have a drinking problem!

I guess you might have other problems, as well, if you're drinking your urine :)

Ion Beza
February 21st, 2006, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by old dog
This sounds like a threat to me.
What is your point?
More insults and personal attacks?
Is this your "data"?
Come on.

He wrote he has something to say that cannot be printed here, so I told him to say it to me.

And he doesn't need your baby sitting, so your distorting my post is useless.

He is on his own with me.

As for his bragging of times while whining about injuries at the same time, me I do my times now, like a 29.60 in 50 free Long Course in August 2005, and others.

But I am not a sprinter.

I challenge him in the 400 meter free:

I know from pictures how he looks, a tribute of not swimming much, and he will drown.

Ion Beza
February 21st, 2006, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by mattson

...
(Ion also fails to say what people were doing in 1952 that is different than today, unless he is implying that TI and Geochuck-styles of swimming are not done today.)
I wrote many times in this thread and the thread I linked regarding the style in vogue today -which is not advocated by Total Immersion-:

.) rotary style to speed up Stroke Rate;

.) strong kicking sets with a board, to develop swimmer's hamstrings.

geochuck
February 21st, 2006, 07:45 PM
May 19th we are on I am game for a 29sec 50m lc, 400m in July I'll be ready for it. Hey if you win you can say I showed that old 73 year old.

scyfreestyler
February 21st, 2006, 07:50 PM
Certain persons on this website (whom shall remain anonymous, I would not want to blow their cover) should start their own swim clubs and begin coaching elite level athletes. They seem to know everything there is to know about the sport. I am truly amazed that people like Bob Bowman can even find coaching jobs in this country with some of the talent we have around here.

Go get 'em guys!









:D

Ion Beza
February 21st, 2006, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Sam Perry

...
I thought we went off the deep end (notice the swimming pun) when Ion threatened a swimmer that was competing on a world class level in the 1950's. Now that was funny?! Now it has devolved into another drab I said this you said that discussion.
Don't be so sure.

I responded to him bragging that he has things to say to me that cannot be printed here.

So I took him to his word.

As for him being world class in the 50s, in his web site he claimed to have swam 54.xx in 100 free Long Course in the 50s.

In a U.K. forum it was pointed out that it would have been much faster than the then World Record.

He re-iterated that it was 54.xx in 100 free Long Course, then under questioning he 'adjusted' it to 100 yards free.

Beware of heroes like this, with no paper trail to back up their grandstanding.

scyfreestyler
February 21st, 2006, 07:59 PM
Is it possible that his 100 long course was actually in a long course yards pool?

geochuck
February 21st, 2006, 08:03 PM
Here is the story

I represented Canada in the 1954 Commonwealth games and swam the 110 yards placing 4th, and second in three relays. After the 54 games I retired from competition and only played water polo. In Feb 1955 my coach called me and told me I was selected to represent Canada in the Pan Am Games in Mexico, the selection was made on past preformances. I started training but was swimming very badly, I could not get my time below one min. for 100 yards (stinko). I decided not to go but the next day at a time trial I did a 51 second 100 time trial. I decided to go. It worked out fine I came second in the Pan Am games, just touched out by Clarke Scholes the 1952 Olympic Champion.

geochuck
February 21st, 2006, 08:24 PM
This is where he read about me on the UK forum http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2676

aquageek
February 21st, 2006, 08:33 PM
One of the things I most enjoy about swimming in Masters is learning from some of my older teammates. And, it's equally impressive to realize many of them compete with swimmers half their ages at times. To sit on this forum and attempt to belittle the accomplishments of someone 30 years your senior, with impressive results regardless of the decade, is just flat out silly and there's absolutely nothing to be accomplished by it.

Of course, I guess it's somewhat of an accomplishment that he's no longer comparing his times to women anymore.

I'm headed to Mexico in a few weeks myself, wife and kids in tow. Strong possibility of tequila sampling, I'd put odds at 100%.

scyfreestyler
February 21st, 2006, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
One of the things I most enjoy about swimming in Masters is learning from some of my older teammates. And, it's equally impressive to realize many of them compete with swimmers half their ages at times. To sit on this forum and attempt to belittle the accomplishments of someone 30 years your senior, with impressive results regardless of the decade, is just flat out silly and there's absolutely nothing to be accomplished by it.

Of course, I guess it's somewhat of an accomplishment that he's no longer comparing his times to women anymore.

I'm headed to Mexico in a few weeks myself, wife and kids in tow. Strong possibility of tequila sampling, I'd put odds at 100%.

Nicely put. Enjoy your vacation.

KaizenSwimmer
February 21st, 2006, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Here is the story

the next day at a time trial I did a 51 second 100 time trial. I decided to go. It worked out fine I came second in the Pan Am games, just touched out by Clarke Scholes the 1952 Olympic Champion.

This is definitively impressive. I've never swum anywhere near a 51-second 100 Free, and to think it was done when I was 3 years old. A 51-second 100 Free was still quite respectable in my college conference in 1970. And a 2nd in the Pan Am Games would have been just as noteworthy an accomplishment then as a 2nd in any international meet today.

But what's most impressive is that Geochuck is still swimming avidly 50 years later. How many other world class swimmers from 1954 are doing so?

geochuck
February 21st, 2006, 10:19 PM
Looks like me swims like me at the 1956 Olympics, may not be me - http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.pic-vn3289715 My wife said it is me, I compaired photos of me. I am sure it is me.

dorothyrde
February 22nd, 2006, 07:49 AM
Very cool George! I agree, being able to still be in the sport, swimming well 50 years later. I will have to be still swimming at 98 to match that! And maybe I will, maybe I will........heheheheh

newmastersswimmer
February 22nd, 2006, 08:48 AM
May 19th we are on I am game for a 29sec 50m lc, 400m in July I'll be ready for it. Hey if you win you can say I showed that old 73 year old.

originally posted by Geochuck in response to Ion's Challenge


o.k. I'm willing to bet a bottle of tequila (the good stuff...like Petron or Herradura for example) on George for both the 50 free challenge in May and the 400 meter challenge in July.....who wants some of the action?

newmastersswimmer

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
Very cool George! I agree, being able to still be in the sport, swimming well 50 years later. I will have to be still swimming at 98 to match that! And maybe I will, maybe I will........heheheheh First race at 5 years old in the public school swimming races, I was in kindergarten raced against 8 year olds. My very first medal, bronze.

Sam Perry
February 22nd, 2006, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
May 19th we are on I am game for a 29sec 50m lc, 400m in July I'll be ready for it. Hey if you win you can say I showed that old 73 year old.

originally posted by Geochuck in response to Ion's Challenge


o.k. I'm willing to bet a bottle of tequila (the good stuff...like Petron or Herradura for example) on George for both the 50 free challenge in May and the 400 meter challenge in July.....who wants some of the action?

newmastersswimmer

I want some action. But don't you think we need to drink something in deference to each one's country. Of course Labatt's for Canada, but no idea what we drink from Romania??

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 11:31 AM
Ion

What I could not say was a word that I said out loud when I read some of the things you were saying. Main reason I did not write it here is that I do not swear. It was not meant to curse you or anything like that. It was a four letter word that I never use. It came out and my wife was angry that I said it. I do respect discussion and I thought you were going far and beyond a discussion and when I found out the masters club you swim for, I could not see how with your opinion about TI, you could stay with that club that is so TI.

KaizenSwimmer
February 22nd, 2006, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Looks like me swims like me at the 1956 Olympics, may not be me - http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.pic-vn3289715 My wife said it is me, I compaired photos of me. I am sure it is me.

How about a current pic taken at the same moment in the stroke so we can compare your technique 50 years apart?

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 01:29 PM
Only pic I have is here of recent date it is a movie takes a while to download http://home.arcor.de/bluetri/hp/geo_freestyle003.mpg Stroke has changed slightly over the years I do a little more front quadrant swimming and have higher elbows and the hand recovers closer to the water.

Peter Cruise
February 22nd, 2006, 01:58 PM
George dropped by our shop a few months ago; hugely enjoyed meeting him & he is welcome in my home anytime. Wonder who I am rooting for?

thewookiee
February 22nd, 2006, 02:01 PM
Maybe I have missed it somewhere in all these posts but what type of times does Ion have for swimming, both short course and long course.

That way, I can decide if I want to take up newmasterswimmer on his bet.

aquageek
February 22nd, 2006, 02:06 PM
My $ (Cruise, that symbol is for American dollar, a currency with value) is squarely on George.

scyfreestyler
February 22nd, 2006, 02:17 PM
My money is on George based solely upon principle, not times.

Frank Thompson
February 22nd, 2006, 02:20 PM
Perhaps we can get George and Ion to attend the USMS Nationals in Coral Springs and we can all watch them swim. They could do the different events on different days. In fact they could do it at the warm up pool by the bar area where they will be serving beer. I believe that is what Mark Gill said they were going to do during the meet. Just think, after a hard day of swimming all of USMS could be entertained by these races. Kinda of like going to the race track and betting on your favorite.

We would have Geek, Gull, Goodsmith, Evil Pablo Smith, Wookiee, Sam Perry, Newmasterswimmer, Kirk Nelson, scyfreestyler, and everyone else who wants to be in on the action. If one person seems to be the favorite, we could have someone generate odds on the outcome. All of this as a result of what we think of total immersion.

KaizenSwimmer
February 22nd, 2006, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
Perhaps we can get George and Ion to attend the USMS Nationals in Coral Springs and we can all watch them swim.

I won't be drinking beer at the meet -- I restrict myself to a once-weekly glass of red wine -- but I'll be swimming there myself, if I can just stay healthy -- I've missed nine of the last 13 months of training following a surgery and a separated shoulder (mtn bike accident). Nonetheless I turn 55 in four weeks and am thus more focused on racing this year.

Usually I do as much OW racing as I can squeeze into the relatively short northeastern season, and may do one or two Masters meets outside the OW season, but this year I'll be racing as regularly as I can, to be more race-sharpened when I open my OW season June 17.

Here are the meets I'll attend from now til Nationals
Feb 25 Toms River NJ 1000 and 500
Mar 5 Nassau Cty LI 1650 and 200 BK
Mar 18 New England Masters Distance Championship, Boston 1650
Apr 21-23 Eastern Zone Championsnip, N VA 1650 + other events
Apr 30 NYS Masters Champs, Nassau Cty LI 1650 + other events
May 11-14 USMS Nats 1650 + other events

As the above suggests, I've never had a bit of natural speed, but I like to try to outsmart my opponents in the longer events.

Starting June 17 at Clemson SC, I'll swim every USMS OW championship I can make - hoping to vie for a title at one or more of them - plus the 3K at the FINA World Masters Championships, as well as the 28.5-mile Manhattan Island Marathon June 24.

Look me up if you're at any of these.

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 02:57 PM
Coral Springs just a tad to soon, I am not complaining just out of the hospital re the new knee. It takes me about six weeks of swimming before I can work a little hard then six weeks to hone my speed. I will not be able to get into the water til the scar is completely healed, it still has a spot that is not quite sealed. But will be ready for the 50 by my birthday.

Just a note the pic from 56 I was in the breathe slightly forward mode, it was believed that we could apply more power to catch the bow wave and then get over the bow wave and start to swim downhill.

Matt S
February 22nd, 2006, 03:05 PM
I checked the USMS database available through the web, but it was not reporting any times.

Ion and I had a friendly competition at the 2001 LCNs. He nipped me by .05 seconds in the 800 free at 11:20.15. I finished ahead of him in the 200 free; we were both in the 2:30s. It was pretty much the same at 2002 LCNs. That was the last meet we both attended.

I recall in the last few months that he has gotten MUCH better in the 200 free. He did a 200 SCY in either the low 2:00s or the high 1:50s.

Top Ten he is not (and neither am I). Respectable (and opinionated) he is.

Matt

Frank Thompson
February 22nd, 2006, 03:16 PM
Hi Matt:

Are you sure about that 200 Free time in the low 2 minutes or like 1:57/58 range? Because just recently, I recall that Ion said he was somewhere in the 2:07 to 2:09 range. I honestly can't recall which website it was on because he responds to 3 or 4 swimming websites. It could have been here. If you are correct in your assessment, than George has his work cut out for him and we all here should take some notice to this improvement.

In fact, I believe he would be getting close to Geek and Gull times and therefore I would suggest that either one of those two take George's spot in Coral Springs since he won't be ready for his race with Ion.

aquageek
February 22nd, 2006, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by totalswimm
I won't be drinking beer at the meet -- I restrict myself to a once-weekly glass of red wine

A further chink in the TI armor, low alcohol consumption.

KaizenSwimmer
February 22nd, 2006, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
A further chink in the TI armor, low alcohol consumption.

As part of my program to win an OW title, I'm trying to reach "fighting weight." I swam in college in 1970 at 155. Hit an alarming weight of 224 in April 2003 and have since dropped to 200. My goal is to be around 180 by the summer. As part of the program I avoid high-calorie beverages, so I drink only water and seltzer, except for that weekly indulgence in a glass of wine. I never enjoyed beer all that much anyway and have never had a taste for liquor. I honestly do get my buzz and relaxation from swimming.

aquageek
February 22nd, 2006, 03:33 PM
I was just playing around, Terry, relax.

Congrats on the weight loss.

newmastersswimmer
February 22nd, 2006, 03:37 PM
Here is what the USMS website has recorded for Ion's times:

http://www.crgwebservices.com/CRGWebServices/usms/db-show.cgi?2557000+25+47+SSLM+None+ZZ+AT


I don't see anywhere in here where Ion ever came anywhere close to a 2:00 200 scy freestyle......I think somewhere around 2:05 - 2:10 would be the best possible scenerio based on the data stored in the USMS database (which has fairly recent results on Ion BTW).


Newmastersswimmer


p.s. Geek and Gull would smash Ion like an electric guitar in any freestyle event.....What a popular cliche the guitar smashing metaphor has become thanks to you know who Jr.....LOL!!

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by totalswimm
As part of my program to win an OW title, I'm trying to reach "fighting weight." I swam in college in 1970 at 155. Hit an alarming weight of 224 in April 2003 and have since dropped to 200. My goal is to be around 180 by the summer. As part of the program I avoid high-calorie beverages, so I drink only water and seltzer, except for that weekly indulgence in a glass of wine. I never enjoyed beer all that much anyway and have never had a taste for liquor. I honestly do get my buzz and relaxation from swimming.
Terry I only drink when I am Mexico, Do you mean if I stop consuming those beverages I can get my weight down from the 270 I was in that video.

KaizenSwimmer
February 22nd, 2006, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
I was just playing around, Terry, relax.


I recognized it as a friendly jibe but also saw it as an opportunity to add some context to my stated goals. Full disclosure for any who might wish to throw a gauntlet my way.

thewookiee
February 22nd, 2006, 03:48 PM
Terry,

Do you have a goal range for the 1650 this season? What else do you plan on swimming at the Zone meet at GMU? I am thinking about swimming at that meet. Love the pool.

John

Paul Smith
February 22nd, 2006, 03:51 PM
Frank/Skip

You forgot.....we switched the event to an intertube water polo tourney!

Not quite sure how we can apply TI to this, and I'm a bit concerned with the lack of alcohol consumption on Terry's part :) but we'll pull it together somehow!

By the way.....Terry I'm glad to see you posting here in bizarro world. Regardless of where people stand on TI the bottom line is it has hit a niche with a group of people who for whatever reason did not find the same improvement thru tradtional programs. USMS can take a lesson in your marketing and what you've done to get more people passionate about our sport. It's all good!

Frank Thompson
February 22nd, 2006, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
Here is what the USMS website has recorded for Ion's times:

http://www.crgwebservices.com/CRGWebServices/usms/db-show.cgi?2557000+25+47+SSLM+None+ZZ+AT


I don't see anywhere in here where Ion ever came anywhere close to a 2:00 200 scy freestyle......I think somewhere around 2:05 - 2:10 would be the best possible scenerio based on the data stored in the USMS database (which has fairly recent results on Ion BTW).


Newmastersswimmer


p.s. Geek and Gull would smash Ion like an electric guitar in any freestyle event.....What a popular cliche the guitar smashing metaphor has become thanks to you know who Jr.....LOL!!

Yes we all know who coined that phase back in 2000 and it worked against us in that relay. I was watching that race a couple of weeks ago and when Australia won they were mimicking the strumming of the guitars for everyone to see on TV. In fact, Michael Klim reminded me of Joe Satriani because he was jamming in front of the TV cameras rubbing in the insult.

KaizenSwimmer
February 22nd, 2006, 03:53 PM
I swam my best adult 1650 in 1992 at age 41, going 18:53. I was absolutely ecstatic with that as it compared favorably to my lifetime best of 18:06 in 1970. The last few years I've not gone faster than 21:30, but I swam that fast in a practice two weeks ago and am now swimming well enough that I think -- with the hoped-for weight loss -- I could swim under 19:30. How much under? We'll see.

I'll swim as many events as I can squeeze in at the Zones, because I have a shot at breaking every 55-59 freestyle record for the Adirondack Masters, and a few other events as well.

Ion Beza
February 22nd, 2006, 05:56 PM
From:

http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2676

Originally posted by geochuck

...
Always long course, we did not swim the fifty meters it was a split on the way to my 54.6 100 meter time. Which was my best time...
...
George Park www.swimdownhill.com

and this is in between 1952 Olympics -with Clarke Scholes (U.S.) winner in 57.4-, and the 1956 Olympics -with Jon Hendricks (Aus.) winner in 55.4, a new Olympic Record-.

While George's alleged 54.6 is almost a second faster than Hendricks's future Olympic Record.

It seems to me to be a case of the older we are, the faster we were, of "Wait until my knee heels and I will show" and of there is no point to do yardage to improve one's athleticism because doing yardage is garbage.

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 06:11 PM
My what a good cut and paste specialist you are. Quit the bull crap 50 meters when??? If you win you can brag I beat the old fart who can hardly walk.

Ion Beza
February 22nd, 2006, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
Perhaps we can get George and Ion to attend the USMS Nationals in Coral Springs and we can all watch them swim. They could do the different events on different days. In fact they could do it at the warm up pool by the bar area where they will be serving beer. I believe that is what Mark Gill said they were going to do during the meet. Just think, after a hard day of swimming all of USMS could be entertained by these races. Kinda of like going to the race track and betting on your favorite.

We would have Geek, Gull, Goodsmith, Evil Pablo Smith, Wookiee, Sam Perry, Newmasterswimmer, Kirk Nelson, scyfreestyler, and everyone else who wants to be in on the action. If one person seems to be the favorite, we could have someone generate odds on the outcome. All of this as a result of what we think of total immersion.
We can compare times at the end of the Short Course and Long Course season.

I would like to attend Coral Springs, but my schedule seems to shape up as Short Course meet in Mission Viejo in March, Short Course meet in La Jolla in April, Long Course meet in La Jolla in July, Long Course meet at Stanford in August.

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 06:20 PM
It would have to be longcourse 50 unable to push off on the turn. Have a wedding to go to in Eastern canada in July. Long Course meet at Stanford in August if I can enter. See you there>

Ion Beza
February 22nd, 2006, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
Hi Matt:

Are you sure about that 200 Free time in the low 2 minutes or like 1:57/58 range? Because just recently, I recall that Ion said he was somewhere in the 2:07 to 2:09 range. I honestly can't recall which website it was on because he responds to 3 or 4 swimming websites. It could have been here. If you are correct in your assessment, than George has his work cut out for him and we all here should take some notice to this improvement.

In fact, I believe he would be getting close to Geek and Gull times and therefore I would suggest that either one of those two take George's spot in Coral Springs since he won't be ready for his race with Ion.
My best 200 yards free is from May 2005, a 2:09.11 indeed.

But I am proud of doing it -and other swims- as an adult, who started swimming entirely outside the window of opportunity for best aerobic development in life.

U.S. Masters swimmers typically develop as swimmers inside the window of opportunity for best aerobic and physiological development when they are kids, and as kids they are sheltered by parents from earning their life;
in Masters swimming they do a fraction of their own teenage feats, they decline, and complain about not being capable of training as well in adulthood.

In contrast, I had done 100% of my swimming improvement in adulthood, outside the window of opportunity, and behind other priorities in life;
ptiorities like an education in a foreign country, moving from country to country based on certain skills in education, and holding high tech jobs for which there is a shortage of qualified people in U.S..

scyfreestyler
February 22nd, 2006, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
My best 200 yards free is from May 2005, a 2:09.11 indeed.

But I am proud of doing it -and other swims- as an adult, who started swimming entirely outside the window of opportunity for best aerobic development in life.

U.S. Masters swimmers typically develop as swimmers inside the window of opportunity for best aerobic and physiological development when they are kids, and as kids they are sheltered by parents from earning their life;
in Masters swimming they do a fraction of their own teenage feats, they decline, and complain about not being capable of training as well in adulthood.

In contrast, I had done 100% of my swimming improvement in adulthood, outside the window of opportunity, and behind other priorities in life;
ptiorities like an education in a foreign country, moving from country to country based on certain skills in education, and holding high tech jobs for which there is a shortage of qualified people in U.S..

Would you like some cheese with that?

We all have our obstacles and setbacks in life. Just remember, no matter how hard you think you had it there are thousands more who had it much worse.

Ion Beza
February 22nd, 2006, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Ion
...
...when I found out the masters club you swim for, I could not see how with your opinion about TI, you could stay with that club that is so TI.
Swim Smarter has elements of Total Immersion in it, and has differences.

I think things over.

In another club in San Diego -who has 28 year old Nicholas Kintz from France as a new coach (a 4x100 free and 4x200 free Olympian in 2000 and 2004)-, coach Allison Terry -a #9 in the 50 meter free at the 2000 U.S. Olympic Trials- tells me to not finish my pull, to get the pulling arm out of the water before the end of the pull in order to increase my Stroke Rate, the way she does it.

Contrary to Total Immersion.

Ion Beza
February 22nd, 2006, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by scyfreestyler

...
We all have our obstacles and setbacks in life. Just remember, no matter how hard you think you had it there are thousands more who had it much worse.
It's not only how hard I think I had it.

Mainly, it's how great I am.

scyfreestyler
February 22nd, 2006, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza


Mainly, it's how great I am.

I think that pretty much sums everything up.


Let me guess...you are single?

:p

Ion Beza
February 22nd, 2006, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by scyfreestyler

...
Let me guess...you are single?

:p
No.

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 07:10 PM
Ion is this your website http://www.greatiamministries.us/

thewookiee
February 22nd, 2006, 07:11 PM
Is that a record for the fewest words he has used in a post??

scyfreestyler
February 22nd, 2006, 07:15 PM
Something that comes to mind with the current subject matter...

To be unusually pleased with yourself is a sure fire way of offending everyone else.

Ion...A hero in his own mind.

Ion Beza
February 22nd, 2006, 07:20 PM
Not only this:

Originally posted by scyfreestyler

...
Ion...A hero in his own mind.
but also in the mind of like minded people.

You would understand this if you were to try what I described.

Like instead of being born in a country, try to force the conditions to be in demand on merit in that country.

Way harder, huh?

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 07:22 PM
I think I am going to leave this thread, Personal stuff should not be allowed, see you in Stanford in August . Let's not pile on Ion he is a highly qualified something or other..

scyfreestyler
February 22nd, 2006, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by thewookiee
Should the title of this thread be changed to " What do you think of Ion Beza"


Just a thought

:eek:

Ion Beza
February 22nd, 2006, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
...Personal stuff should not be allowed...
No kidding.

That claim of 54.6, ahead of the World Record of the time, must not have been personal stuff.

For which you collect accolades here.

From dorothyrd, from Terry Laughlin.

It was not impersonating.

No sir.

scyfreestyler
February 22nd, 2006, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Not only this:

but also in the mind of like minded people.

You would understand this if you were to try what I described.

Like instead of being born in a country, try to force the conditions to be in demand on merit in that country.

Ion, if you only knew.

My wife has no grandfather because he was killed in a Nazi death camp in 1945. My mother in law and her mother came to the US after escaping from Hungary and found their way to the US eventually. They fought tooth and nail to get where they are today. Actually my wife's grandmother passed away some years back and my mother in law is now a succesful attorney.

My grandmother married my grandfather in WWII when he was stationed in Monte Cassino, Italy from 1944-1945. She immigrated to this country and learned a whole new way of life.

None of the people I mentioned are swimmers but they all have a great deal of modesty (that means a lack of pretentiousness just so you know)...I never hear them bragging or complaining about how rough they have had it. Especially my mother in law, she never knew her father, she only knew of him. My wifes grandmother saw more bloodshed and brutality on innocent women, children, and men than anybody should ever have to see. All of these women have raised families, owned homes, and had wonderful lives with family and friends that they love.

You might think your life sucks but you have no idea how bad it can get.

geochuck
February 22nd, 2006, 07:39 PM
Hey I was even faster then that when I beat Dan Sherry in 1961. I even beat Dick Hanley in Montreal his time for the 100 yards 47.8 and I beat him in a very slow 52 flat. Also beat Clarke Scholes in 1955 he hung up his swim suit that day and passed up on the Japan USA meet that he was getting ready to go to..

If you read all the posts on UK swim forum and only showing your selective cut and pastes, I would almost respect you. Still afraid to actually accept the callenge I see.

mbmg3282
February 22nd, 2006, 09:12 PM
I think it is time for a redirect. This thread is about Total Immersion, not about individuals that have chosen to post here. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Mark Gill
USMS VP of Member Services

KaizenSwimmer
February 23rd, 2006, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
coach Allison Terry -a #9 in the 50 meter free at the 2000 U.S. Olympic Trials- tells me to not finish my pull, to get the pulling arm out of the water before the end of the pull in order to increase my Stroke Rate, the way she does it.

Contrary to Total Immersion.

This indicates how fully your criticisms of Total Immersion are based on ignorance.

1) We specifically advise swimmers NOT to push back at the end of the pull. Our stroke-lengthening emphasis is all on spearing forward, where the length actually does some good because: (a) the spearing arm acts as a "fairing" to reduce drag for the blunter head and torso that follows it through that space, (b) lengthening the bodyline at the front significantly reduces wave drag; (c) this puts the point of traction or "grip" farther forward.

Whereas pushing back is ineffectual. (a) Underwater video of elite freestylers shows them rounding off by the time they reach the hip bone; (b) Hydrodynamic studies conducted at Stanford showed no effective propulsion beyond the hip bone (i.e. the waistband of a man's brief); (c) Pushing down the thigh only makes the tricep tired and limits Stroke Rate.

2) We are absolutely not opposed to Stroke Rate. As I have said and written many times, just as you need both Length and Width to get the area of a Square, you need both SL and SR to attain Velocity. The distinction is that the human swimming instinct is to go for SR FIRST and usually to the great detriment of SL. Raising SR only to give up an equal amt of SL is a zero-sum game. All it does is make you tired.

Our philosophy is to focus first on SL, allow yourself all the practice needed to consolidate it, and then begin working the SR side. My goal is always to swim at the lowest possible SR at any Velocity because -- assuming I don't do that by overkicking or overstretching -- that will be my most economical way of doing so.

But I also work regularly to improve my ability to increase my SR without giving up SL or control.

It has always been the case that those who criticize TI most are those who understand it least.

lefty
February 23rd, 2006, 12:32 PM
Are SR and SL mutually exclusive? In other words, if your drills/method are designed to emphasize one, are you automatically hindering the other?

Without anything but personal evidense I am certain that the most power in the pull comes when you slightly rotate your core in conjuction with your pull - swimming flat without body rotation prohibits this. Whoever transfer the most power from their core into their stroke swims the fastest.

MichiganHusker
February 23rd, 2006, 12:44 PM
Wow! Regarding Terry & Lefty's last post:

I was always told by every single coach to finish the stroke completely and push back at the end of the pull.

In fact, it is something I concentrate on.

So, what do I do to get this habit out of my brain?

Also, I agree with Lefty - I'm not clear on how to emphasize both SR and SL. If I understood Terry's post - SR = stroke rate (the faster turnover the better) and SL = stroke length (the fewer the better).

dorothyrde
February 23rd, 2006, 04:21 PM
The age groupers are being taught exactly how Terry has said about not going past the hip.

SL will suffer at the expense of SR, but the trick is to practice it so that it won't suffer as much. It is very hard to do, and I think it takes years of practice.

Paul Smith
February 23rd, 2006, 05:26 PM
Got a chance swim with Nic Brunelli today (he coaches a couple of practices for Sun Devil Masters) which happened to be a recovery day and was a series of drills leading up to the following set done twice:

4 x 25s drill @ :40
4 x 50s "golf" @ 1:00
1 x 200 holding golf score of the 200

Nic was holding 8 strokes a lap and dropped from :29 to :26 on the 50s, then went about 1:55 on the 200....with a HR of about 120 I'd guess (he was lapping people in his lane and not pushing it).

Some interesting discussions with him about SR/SL, these types of workouts relative to race distance, etc. etc.

Would love to share with everyone but I'll be keeping for myself! :)

By the way, Nic's pretty fast....seems like this type of training works OK for him.

geochuck
February 23rd, 2006, 05:38 PM
I basically teach Tri guys who have no Idea what to do so I have them pressing through to the thigh, but as they become more accomplished they are told to stop pushing around the groin region, rotate and let the hand come out by lifting the elbow. The hand does end up brushing the thigh.

By pressing through to the thigh they learn to rotate the shoulders. In the beggining I do not talk SR and SL, that comes later.

Ion Beza
February 23rd, 2006, 07:10 PM
Hey,

that's the key:

Originally posted by scyfreestyler
Ion,...
...
None of the people I mentioned are swimmers...
...

I don't think that my life sucks:

Originally posted by scyfreestyler

...
You might think your life sucks but you have no idea how bad it can get.
When U.S. citizens whine they cannot get out of inner city ghettos in Detroit, I laugh at them because me getting out of communist Romania and succeeding in Western Europe then here that's way harder.

My life -including my swimming- is a success.

KaizenSwimmer
February 23rd, 2006, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by MichiganHusker
Wow! Regarding Terry & Lefty's last post:

I was always told by every single coach to finish the stroke completely and push back at the end of the pull.



It's still what most coaches emphasize. The downside of focusing on the push back is that the water is elusive and hard to press on with any real effectiveness. I have gotten a far greater payoff from putting all my emphasis on spearing forward.

The way I describe it to swimmers is to tell them to think of finishing each stroke to the front, rather than the rear. As for the stroking part I pay great attention to establishing my grip, then shift my full attention to the hand spearing forward.

I pay no attention to anything happening behind my nose.

You can find the right balance between SL and SR, by swimming sets at various stroke counts to teach your nervous system to adapt. In most sets I will use at least two different stroke counts, sometimes as many as four.

E.G. I may start a set of 100s with a 13SPL, focusing on discipline. Midway through the set I may increase to 14SPL and toward the end to 15SPL, at which time I'm focusing on maintaining fluency at the higher SR

aquageek
February 23rd, 2006, 07:44 PM
Terry - I must admit that by you hanging in here I'm gaining a great deal of respect for you. Not sure TI is for me but reading your posts is definitely interesting and informative.

And Cruise - thanks for the validation that curling is a sport designed to increase liver weight.

Ion Beza
February 23rd, 2006, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by totalswimm
This indicates how fully your criticisms of Total Immersion are based on ignorance.
...
2) We are absolutely not opposed to Stroke Rate.
...

I have problems with statement like this:

1.) "...Virtually every swimmer I see already has all the SR they'll ever need..." in the book Total Immersion, page 33;

Olympians like Gary Hall Jr. have more SR than the swimmers Terry does see, yet he works on Stroke Rate because nobody -including him- has the Stroke Rate they will ever need;
Gary Hall Jr. works foremost at attaining his maximum possible Stroke Rate thru fitness, then at close to that maximum Stroke Rate on the combo Stroke Rate-Stroke Length;

2.) "...In fact properly balanced they hardly kick at all..." in the book Total Immersion in page 42;

1500 meter World Record holder Grant Hackett (Aus.) kicks the entire race of the 1500 in a sprint propulsive kick he develops thru long kicking sets in workouts;
he is typical -not an exception, but typical- of today's high class competition;
a little before the 2000 Olympics, Ian Thorpe (Aus.) was doing 5x100 meters kick with a board leaving every 5 minutes, and coming in in 1:01;
Bill Rose -coach of Olympian Larsen Jensen (U.S.)- recommends 1/3rd. of the weekly mileage in kicking sets with a board, in order to develop the quadriceps of a propulsive kick;

3.) Front Quadrant is explained as "...One hand doesn't start until the other one's nearly back..." -which is a sign of near overlap between the arms- in Total Immersion page 47, and in page 48 "...Enter, e-x-t-e-n-d, pause and pull...";

yet world class swimmers today -like the recently retired Alex. Popov (Rus.), Pieter van den Hoogenband (Netherlands), Jodie Henry (Aus.)- don't pause because they deem it as slowing them down;
they swim with arms 180 degrees in opposition;
one arm in the water and the other one in the air, 180 degrees apart.

KaizenSwimmer
February 23rd, 2006, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I have problems with statement like this:.

What part of "Our mission is to provide average swimmers with support and advice" do you not understand?

Have I not made it clear enough that our goal is not to coach or produce elite swimmers, but to guide "just folks" to greater efficiency, and particularly greater enjoyment?

I get great pleasure from riding a bike. Does that mean I need to train or ride like Lance Armstrong? And if I don't am I doing something wrong? To rhink that swimmers should take their cues only from what elite swimmers do would be just as unreasonable.

scyfreestyler
February 23rd, 2006, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by totalswimm
To rhink that swimmers should take their cues only from what elite swimmers do would be just as unreasonable.

And possibly unhealthy. I think there are more elite swimmers with shoulder injuries than without. Lots of yardage and lots of strokes are something that no amount of physical therapy can overcome.

KaizenSwimmer
February 23rd, 2006, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by scyfreestyler
And possibly unhealthy. I think there are more elite swimmers with shoulder injuries than without.

And not just elite swimmers either.
At most any high yardage club or college team, you'll see more than a few people icing shoulders after practice. When I mention this to PT's they say if you're doing anything that requires regular ice therapy, you should STOP doing it. Yet it's become accepted in the swimming culture as "the price you need to pay" to achieve.

In any case, my main swimming goal is to be strong, supple and graceful at age 85. I don't think Grant Hackett is thinking along those lines at the moment.

scyfreestyler
February 23rd, 2006, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by totalswimm
And not just elite swimmers either.
At most any high yardage club or college team, you'll see more than a few people icing shoulders after practice. When I mention this to PT's they say if you're doing anything that requires regular ice therapy, you should STOP doing it. Yet it's become accepted in the swimming culture as "the price you need to pay" to achieve.

In any case, my main swimming goal is to be strong, supple and graceful at age 85. I don't think Grant Hackett is thinking along those lines at the moment.

You're absolutely correct about that. Long term is the name of the game in my book also.

geochuck
February 23rd, 2006, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by scyfreestyler
And possibly unhealthy. I think there are more elite swimmers with shoulder injuries than without. Lots of yardage and lots of strokes are something that no amount of physical therapy can overcome.
There are whole swimming clubs that have high rates of shoulder injuries, the club that I have seen do a pretzel twist and stretch regime of exercises before they swim. Let's not just blame over distance swimming.