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View Full Version : Is Coral Springs pool (SCY nationals) considered a fast pool? Anybody have any input



Its a slow show
January 30th, 2006, 01:49 PM
Looks a little dated me.

jim clemmons
January 30th, 2006, 01:53 PM
Does it matter? Everyone will be sharing the same "advantage/disadvantage" regardless.

mbmg3282
January 31st, 2006, 01:06 PM
Coral Springs has a pool set up similar to the Fort Lauderdale facility.

Its a slow show
January 31st, 2006, 07:23 PM
My question was really simple Mr. Clemmons. Does anybody know, first hand, if the pool is considered fast or average. I grasp the idea that the competition is all relative. Just curious regarding its ratings with past swimmers who have competed in it.

A.K.
January 31st, 2006, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Its a slow show
..... Just curious regarding its ratings with past swimmers who have competed in it.

What have the reports been and from who?


Originally posted by mbmg3282

Coral Springs has a pool set up similar to the Fort Lauderdale facility.

Ft Lauderdale's been around for ages, have they done any remodeling in the last 20 years?

TheGoodSmith
February 1st, 2006, 03:01 PM
Haven't swum at Coral Springs, but it's got to be faster than Fort Lauderdale's museum of a facility.


John Smith

thewookiee
February 1st, 2006, 03:16 PM
I've been to the pool, swam in it, seen times from meets at the pool...it is good pool for fast swimming.

I do have to agree with Clemmmons though, it will be the same for everyone. Personally, I think swimmers make the pool fast, not the pool itself.

aquageek
February 1st, 2006, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by thewookiee
Personally, I think swimmers make the pool fast, not the pool itself.

While I generally agree with this statement, I suggest you take a trip to the downtown Y in Columbia, SC. Not only is the place creepy in an Alcatraz type of way, it's 20 yards with no gutter and walls about 2 feet above the water level.

Oh yeah, and it's kept at a laineybug lovin' 90 degrees.

Frank Thompson
February 1st, 2006, 03:47 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
[B]Haven't swum at Coral Springs, but it's got to be faster than Fort Lauderdale's museum of a facility.

Mr Goodsmith:

I could have swore that you said you would rather swim in a museum of a facility pool that had a good vacation spot than a very fast pool that is not in a good vacation spot.

I swam at this pool about 10 years ago and they added 2 pools since then. The gutter design and depth to me was better than Fort Lauderdale. From the picture on the website it looks we will be in both pools next to the diving pool with the distance events swam both places.

TheGoodSmith
February 2nd, 2006, 10:48 AM
You are correct. I'd rather be next to the beach swimming at Fort Lauderdale's archeological exhibit than indoors at Indianapolis's faster pool.

The question was if Coral Spring's pool was fast. It's got to be faster than Fort Lauderdale's pool.

To those of you who think it's all relative for everyone in the same pool and it doesn't matter....... Try taking down Paul Smith's record in the 50yd and 100yd free. I can assure you, that you will have a vastly different opinion about pool construction.


John Smith

scyfreestyler
February 2nd, 2006, 12:57 PM
A fast or slow pool means very little for those seeking only to compete with those on the deck that given day. If you are attempting to make it into a Top Ten list or break a record, it becomes much more important.

As an aside, I am not completely convinced that there is really that much difference in speed from one pool to the next. Has anybody ever compiled scientific evidence to prove such a difference actually exists?

jim clemmons
February 2nd, 2006, 01:43 PM
Does anybody know, first hand, if the pool is considered fast or average.


Has anybody ever compiled scientific evidence to prove such a difference actually exists?

Yes. You want data? - it's out there. It's all over this forum in various places and other locations outside USMS. Go fetch.

Of course a 2-3 foot deep pool is going to be slower than a 6-7 foot pool or a 10 foot pool. Gutter construction, lane lines, starting blocks, water temp, blah blah blah, all play an integral part of the so called "speed" of a pool.

However, you (mentally) are going to play the biggest (or not) role of just how fast that pool is. Remember, Michael Phelps set a world record in the 400 IM in the so-called sloooow IHOF pool of Fort Lauderdale a couple of years back. No, it's certainly not the nicest facility I've ever swum in but the ambiance plays a huge part.

It must have for him too.

thewookiee
February 2nd, 2006, 01:53 PM
Don't forget that the Hall of Fame pool saw Natalie Coughlin become the first woman to break a minute in the 100 meter backstroke or that Mike Barrowman and Martin Zubero set world records in that pool as well.

So they were not concerned if it was "fast" or not. They went to swim the best they were capable of doing that day.

Its a slow show
February 2nd, 2006, 02:02 PM
Let beat this to death!! Very simple would you prefer to swim in a pool considered fast or in one considered slow. Gee, I think I'll take the fast one. How about you??

jim clemmons
February 2nd, 2006, 02:26 PM
"Consideration" is all in the head of the beholder.

What you "consider" is what the results will more than likely turn out to be.

newmastersswimmer
February 2nd, 2006, 03:26 PM
To those of you who think it's all relative for everyone in the same pool and it doesn't matter....... Try taking down Paul Smith's record in the 50yd and 100yd free. I can assure you, that you will have a vastly different opinion about pool construction.


originally posted by GoodSmith


So I guess the faster pool this year will make your races very interesting then.......Is this your last SCY Nationals in the 40 - 44 year old agegroup?....If so, then I wish you the best of luck in breaking those records...I know you have come very close to those records the last couple of years.


Newmastersswimmer

A.K.
February 2nd, 2006, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Its a slow show
Let beat this to death!! Very simple would you prefer to swim in a pool considered fast or in one considered slow. Gee, I think I'll take the fast one. How about you??

Fast Pool-- if everything is the same surrounding the complex.

Frank Thompson
February 2nd, 2006, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by thewookiee
Don't forget that the Hall of Fame pool saw Natalie Coughlin become the first woman to break a minute in the 100 meter backstroke or that Mike Barrowman and Martin Zubero set world records in that pool as well.

So they were not concerned if it was "fast" or not. They went to swim the best they were capable of doing that day.

Nate Dusing set a US Open record in the 200 Meter Free of 1:47.02 in the same meet that World Records by Michael Phelps (4:11.09) and Eric Vendt (4:11.27) did in the 400 Meter IM. Natalie Coughlin also set the World Record breaking the 1 minute barrier. I remember David Edgar setting some records there in 1971 but I believe they were World bests and American Records because the 50 Free was not recognized by FINA yet.

Here is some more: http://ci.ftlaud.fl.us/flac/records.htm

JSwims
February 2nd, 2006, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Haven't swum at Coral Springs, but it's got to be faster than Fort Lauderdale's museum of a facility.


John Smith

Mr Smith:

Perhaps you should have completed a bit of background research on the Fort Lauderdale Aquatic Complex prior to making the very erroneous statement, "Haven't swum at Coral Springs, but it's got to be faster than Fort Lauderdale's museum of a Facility."

Let me share with you the following information: the Facility's original 50-meter pool completed in 1965 has witnessed 10 world records whilst serving as host to hundreds of national and international events -- I believe that the only other outdoor facility in the country with more world records is Santa Clara. The (2) most recent world records were set during the USA Swimming/Phillips 66 Long Course National Championships in August of 2002 -- Natalie Coughlin was the first woman EVER to go under a minute in the Women's 100m Backstroke (59.58), as well as Michael Phelps world record swim in the Men's 400m Individual Medley (4:11.09). I personally witnessed both of these spectacular swims, and can say without a doubt that they are the two most exciting swims I have ever seen -- that includes the numerous world records I witnessed in person at the 2004 Olympic Trials in Long Beach.

Additionally, the Fort Lauderdale Aquatic Complex was rated as the number one competitive, outdoor swimming venue in the United States, by an overwhelming 33.8% in a USA Swimming poll conducted in July of 2002 -- with the runner-up, Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona coming in at 12.9% amongst survey respondents.

I agree completely with you that the Facility is old, and needs MAJOR renovation in order to comply with current NGB pool specifications, etc -- I am very pleased to report that the City of Fort Lauderdale is currently in the process of forging the ground work for a completely new, state-of-the-art, world class aquatics venue.

Should you be interested in any further information regarding the Aquatic Complex, and it's history please feel free to visit the Facility's website at the following: www.fortlauderdale.gov/flac

Regards,

Jeff Stafford

Assistant Aquatic Complex Manager
Fort Lauderdale Aquatic Complex

JSwims
February 2nd, 2006, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
Nate Dusing set a US Open record in the 200 Meter Free of 1:47.02 in the same meet that World Records by Michael Phelps (4:11.09) and Eric Vendt (4:11.27) did in the 400 Meter IM. Natalie Coughlin also set the World Record breaking the 1 minute barrier. I remember David Edgar setting some records there in 1971 but I believe they were World bests and American Records because the 50 Free was not recognized by FINA yet.

Here is some more: http://ci.ftlaud.fl.us/flac/records.htm

Thanks Frank -- good to know there are still those that have a good grasp on the VERY rich swimming history that Fort Lauderdale has been so fortunate to have witnessed.

Regards,

- Jeff

waves101
February 3rd, 2006, 08:44 AM
I don't know about you all but I think I'll trade Coral Springs or Ft. Lauderdale (fast or slow) for Battle Creek, Michigan any day. While we have 2 great brand new high school facilities to swim in, somehow the drab grey winter sky just simply doesn't measure up to sunny Florida. Don't get me wrong, I love the change of seasons but January and February are cruel and unusual punishment. This has even been a warm winter by Michigan standards (43 straight days of above normal temps) but I still cheer whenever I get to see the sun, which is about 2 days of the month in Jan & Feb. So, I guess I'll just stick to my tried and true definition of a "fast" pool.... any pool where my feet are planted for each and every turn. And, yes, that means the same pool can be both fast and slow!

TheGoodSmith
February 3rd, 2006, 11:50 AM
Jeff,

I can tell I got under you skin with that comment. Let me first say that I had a chance to swim at Fort Lauderdale for the Region meet outdoors in the summer of 1983 and had a few very successful swims. I actually broke the meet record in the 200IM back then with a 2:08. Sounds ridiculously slow now, but I was happy with it back then being unshaved. I have good memories of that facility.

Fort Lauderdale is one of the classic and historic swim locations for all American swimmers for several generations now. It is what it is........ a living museum...... I say that as a compliment.

Now........ ignoring the fact that it has fallen into a relative sad state of repair, you can not dispute that the technology of the construction of this pool when it was completed is not on par with facilities in the recent decades.

As for the world records you rattle off. Yes it is an impressive list owed partly to the longevity of the pool. I have a feeling that the Indy, the Texas swim center and other locations will catch up to these statistics given the time as well.

Now I'm going to say something thats going to irritate you probably............ Sometimes great swims are possible in slower facilities due to the fact the athlete setting the record is not only extremely talented but way out ahead of the field in clear water. Take Jonty Skinnners 100 free decades ago for instance. He was a phenomenal swimmer that crushed the field in clear water in an average facility. The Woodlands Texas (Sippy) too... a very shallow end pool that Clay Brit scraped his back on the bottom of is site to a world record as well. She crushed the field in a phenomenal performance way out a head.

I don't know that the majority of the world record swims at Fort Lauderdale have been done in the recent decade, and I'd like to know how many USS National swims (SCY) have been set there recently as well..... particulary in the short events where a fast pool really shines.

I would never insult Fort Lauderdale's pool or history. My own swimming past landed there long ago and I am glad to have come back last year as an old man. My point was that it is a relic of a facility and Coral Springs is newer and hopefully faster.


John Smith

kernow
February 4th, 2006, 10:27 AM
Not to mention that there have been a few Masters' records broken there, as well. I used to train there regularly (and in the sea also, for what it's worth).

So, what makes a pool 'fast'? Special water? :) (I do realise that there are various factors that can contribute to how a pool 'feels,' but unless we're at the utra- elite level, it ain't gonna matter much).

It'll be interesting at nationals (I'm thinking of going- maybe). A bit of a side note, however: C.S. is known to have a wonky lightning detection system, and in May in FL., we may spend more time hopping in and out of the pool than competing- especially in the afternoon. ;)

(edited to state that I need to start posting more quickly, as the above post sort of 'answers my concerns.")






'Don't forget that the Hall of Fame pool saw Natalie Coughlin become the first woman to break a minute in the 100 meter backstroke or that Mike Barrowman and Martin Zubero set world records in that pool as well.

So they were not concerned if it was "fast" or not. They went to swim the best they were capable of doing that day.

knelson
February 6th, 2006, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by kernow
So, what makes a pool 'fast'? Special water? :) (I do realise that there are various factors that can contribute to how a pool 'feels,' but unless we're at the utra- elite level, it ain't gonna matter much).

I think you're wrong about that. A pool's 'speed' may, in fact, influence a slower swimmer's time more than a fast swimmer. Think about what John Smith said about swimming in clear water. Someone way out front might not be impacted as much by wave action as a slower swimmer who's back a ways and next to the wall.

What makes a pool fast? Anything that reduces wave action: deep water throughout, a gutter system that can move lots of water, good lane lines. There are other things too, such as water temperature and lighting.

Paul Smith
February 6th, 2006, 05:20 PM
Kirk......you nailed it!

In masters events you often have a much larger difference between the top 2-3 seeds and the rest of the field. In the shorter races a swimmer who is not out front is going to take a beating from the wave coming out of their flip turn......

John's point about this and about pools like Indy is dead on as well.....when he and I last swam the 50 together in Indy we we're dead even to the finish and both stayed under the wake coming out of the turn, I ended up with my best time since college. If you saw John swim the 50 at Ft. Lauderdale you saw him swim away from everyone and have smooth water and he was very close to his Indy time in a much "slower pool" (21.25 vs. 21.43).

Another point on lane lines, not only do th size and quality of them have an impact but also the narrowness of the lane itself. in my case I hit the lanes multiple time in FL with my fingertips on the fly events!

knelson
February 6th, 2006, 11:55 PM
Paul "The Albatross" Smith :)

TheGoodSmith
February 7th, 2006, 11:00 AM
Paul is correct. The lanes were not as wide as other pools. I noticed that I too could touch the lane lines on both sides with my arms extended. This does not help sprint events.


John Smith

Paul Smith
February 7th, 2006, 11:44 AM
In my previous life I worked in the outdoor industry, climbers had a "standard" for wingspan known as "the ape index"

Total height in inches vs. wingspan = +/-

In my case 77" vs 79" = +2 on the ape index

Somehow they thought this could give some insight into ability (reach being critical in technical/sport climbing)

Sadly it didn't take into effect weighing in at 230 lbs and not being able to pull one's sorry as... up an overhanging climb!

Thankfully water negates gravity a bit!

TheGoodSmith
February 7th, 2006, 05:09 PM
Paul (Evil one),

Face it....... the only reason you swim is because it's the only sport you can do..... LYING DOWN.


JOhn Smith

Paul Smith
February 8th, 2006, 10:31 AM
Smith......hurry up and turn 45 so I have some motivation to sprint again, then we can start talking about fast pools!

By the way....we need to track Geek & Gull down in FL this year and get serious about some of these debates. Let's pick a bar and go at it live!

TheGoodSmith
February 8th, 2006, 02:29 PM
If we see Geek before he's sees us, he knows he's in trouble.

He knows' we're gonna hog tie him, hang him from the 10 meter, get out some big sticks and play pinata hour.... :-)


John Smith

Paul Smith
February 8th, 2006, 05:58 PM
You, me and about 95% of folks on this forum......maybe we could charge a buck a whack and pay our beer bill?

PS: speaking of fast pools did you ever get in touch with Eddie about trying to host something at UT again? Now that's a FAST pool!

TheGoodSmith
February 10th, 2006, 03:44 PM
I sent an email to Eddie asking him who in the Swim Center to send the information for hosting masters nationals. I will let you know if he responds.


John Smith

A.K.
February 16th, 2006, 09:18 PM
What are the best choices of Hotels?
What's the closest and best for the meet?
Is it better to stay at the beach or near the pool?

Jeff Commings
February 17th, 2006, 11:11 AM
Having masters nationals in Austin would be a great idea -- if they had an outdoor pool. The diving well isn't big enough to hold 800 swimmers who need to warm up and warm down during the day.

But if I'm not mistaken, Austin did have masters nationals one year. But I'm thinking the numbers were a lot lower.

Frank Thompson
February 17th, 2006, 01:13 PM
Hi Jeff:

Texas Swim Center had the USMS Short Course Nationals in May, 1988. I believe Huddie Murray was the Meet Director. It was the same year that the Olympic Trials were held there. There were 1405 people that swam in the meet. I remember a lot of records broken during the meet. I had some personal bests at the time.

Eddie Reese swam in the meet and so did Richard Quick, who was the Women's Coach at Texas at that time. The one swim I do remember at that the meet, was Jim Mongomery swimming in the 30-34 age group, was the first masters swimmer to go under 1:40 in the 200 Yard Free. His time was 1:39 something. He also tied John Tudor in the 50 Free to the exact hundreth.

Its a slow show
February 17th, 2006, 02:39 PM
I heard that there was a vendor deal that blocks USMS from using the Texas pool with our normal vendor deals for Nationals. Could be wrong but I know afew years ago that was the story I got.

knelson
February 17th, 2006, 02:43 PM
What, one of the vendors is owned by a Texas A&M grad? ;)

I don't get it...

TheGoodSmith
February 17th, 2006, 03:21 PM
Hey Jeff (Commings), send Eddie a note too. I sent it a few weeks ago but didn't get a reply. Ask him if the Swim Center would host, outdoor USMS Nationals.

John Smith

ande
February 17th, 2006, 04:11 PM
Eddie would just ask someone to host it or submit a bid or be the meet organizer, which could wind up being me.

I don't think anyone has had any interest in being the meet host.

I think the last masters meet held at the swim center in Austin was in March or April 1999.

I'd love it if there were a SCM meet in December at the swim center.

Ande


Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
I sent an email to Eddie asking him who in the Swim Center to send the information for hosting masters nationals. I will let you know if he responds. John Smith

gull
February 17th, 2006, 04:26 PM
Count me in if there's a meet there. I'll buy margaritas on 6th Street for any of the forum regulars that show up.

ladybug010
February 17th, 2006, 04:44 PM
What's considered a forum regular? mmmmmm Margarita! :)

TheGoodSmith
February 17th, 2006, 06:03 PM
A "forum regular" is someone that is annoying and/or irritating like Geek or me.


Ande......... you take the ball on this one and get a USMS nationals at the Texas Swim Center lined up.


John Smith

ande
February 18th, 2006, 01:31 PM
john, why don't you take the ball, with fax, email, and phone it really doesn't matter where the organizer lives, you're one of the most organized people I know

a


Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
A "forum regular" is someone that is annoying and/or irritating like Geek or me.

Ande......... you take the ball on this one and get a USMS nationals at the Texas Swim Center lined up.
John Smith