PDA

View Full Version : Strokes



Concho Pearl
June 23rd, 2006, 06:22 PM
Since wanting to start over again, I have questions.

While watching the Olypmics it looked like when they did a flip turn during freestlye they a couple dolphin kicks after pushing off the wall until they reached the surface.

And I think I remember see them do this when they dove in at the start.

I know rules ect.. have change so I thought I would ask.
Plus, if I did see this correctly - why?? It must cut some time or they wouldn't do it.

I have also read, that since my day they have changed the backstroke turn. If I read it correctly, I understand it to be while coming into the wall you can turn over to you stomach, do a flip turn ( like normal) but come out on you back, instead of turning over to your stomach. Do I have this correct??

fanstone
June 23rd, 2006, 08:21 PM
Dang, you've been gone longer than I. After the freestyle or butterfly start you may do the dolphin kick and remain under water till you reach 15 meters. You may have your head under water in the breast stroke. You may use a frog leg kick in the butterfly stroke, once per arm cycle. You may add a dolphin kick to your frog leg kick in the butterfly stroke. Recently it has been decided that after the turn of the breast stroke you may do one dolphin kick. Look up the rules here: http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf

Hope this helps, there is a lot more information coming your way on this forum. billy fanstone.

dorothyrde
June 24th, 2006, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by fanstone
. You may use a frog leg kick in the butterfly stroke, once per arm cycle.


Really?

fanstone
June 24th, 2006, 08:39 AM
I gather you're not being sarcastic. I saw a guy swim the 200 meters in a long pool using a mix of frog and flip kicks, and he told me you had to start with the style you wanted and keep it till the end of the race. However, looking at the rules I see it as that you can use a frog leg kick whenever you want to, always staying in the rule that it is only one per cycle, and one dolphin kick per cycle. In other words, substitute the first or second kick for a frog kick or only do one frog kick. In my opinion (IMHO) this would help in longer races or really older people. I can swim 50 or 25 (100 meters I.M.) butterfly using single or double dolphin kicks. The frog kick would be used for a longer race, which I have not yet tried. In my last swimming life in high school, in 1967-68 the rules were that you could switch to frog leg kick, but only for an entire pool length. I swam the 100 yards dong the first 75 regular dolphin and the last 25 frog leg kick. I was in the B team. Take care, billy fanstone.

MegSmath
June 24th, 2006, 10:17 AM
Only in Masters swimming are you allowed to use a frog kick in butterfly. Not true for USA Swimming or Olympics. And in Masters, it is not true that you have to pick one kick and stick with it. You can switch between frog and dolphin if you want.

dorothyrde
June 24th, 2006, 06:15 PM
I thought Masters switched and now uses the USA style of rules.
I did not realize this was legal, although for myself I would find this awkward.

I got an interesting DQ at the table today at a summer rec league. Summer rec has a lot of newbie officials, and they do the best they can. This DQ had a story written on it because the official could not find an appropriate box to check. It said, took arms strokes simultaneous while swimming backstroke. It described what the swimmer did, and basically, it sounded like a two armed backstroke. So I called the official over and gently asked him why he thought this was a DQ because I told him I thought anything goes as long as the swimmer was on his back. Both coaches were standing there as well as one of our more experienced officials. They all looked at me puzzled like, of course the swimmer can do that, but this guy was adament that the swimmer could not do a double arm back stroke. He got overruled and I threw out the DQ. Luckily he is a friend and we are partners on the parent relay, so he was not mad!

Now I need to find the rules so I can point this out,because he insisted it was on the officials video.

Edited:
In reviewing the rule I can see where he was getting confused. The rule talks about a double arm pull on the breast while turning. I had questioned him about whether the swimmer was on his front or back and he said when the swimmer took the double arm pull he was on his back. the sequence the swimmer did was flip to breast, turn, out of the turn, on his back he did a double arm pull. So the double arm pull wording on the turn got this judge confused.

Allen Stark
June 24th, 2006, 06:43 PM
Masters still allows one breaststroke kick per arm pull in fly. You can do as many dolphin kicks as you want per pull in addition. Good to know when you just can't do one more pull in the 200 fly.

nkfrench
June 24th, 2006, 09:13 PM
"The rule talks about a double arm pull on the breast while turning. "

Without looking it up to get the full context - that rule just means that you can't take two arm pulls (cycles) without a kick / coming to the surface, right ? Not that you can't pull both arms at the same time (simultaneous motion)

A lot of people will confuse illegal stroke technique with innovative, bizarre or just plain slow stroke technique. :)

Concho Pearl
June 24th, 2006, 10:58 PM
Wondering, what up with the racer start? It looks easier, is it faster? So people use it in Masters?

dorothyrde
June 25th, 2006, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by nkfrench
"The rule talks about a double arm pull on the breast while turning. "

Without looking it up to get the full context - that rule just means that you can't take two arm pulls (cycles) without a kick / coming to the surface, right ? Not that you can't pull both arms at the same time (simultaneous motion)

A lot of people will confuse illegal stroke technique with innovative, bizarre or just plain slow stroke technique. :)

This was a 10 year old summer swimmer, so probably one of the first times doing this turn, and was just trying to figure out how to swim the race. The time was very slow, so I don't think this kid was gaining any advantage any way. The point I made to the official was, if the kid was on his back, and the race was backstroke, he can do anything he wants with his arms and legs. The seasoned official and coaches agreed with me. He just got confused with the turn verbiage and this was after the turn when the kid was on his back coming back.

The backstroke turn is very hard to officiate and I understand the struggle officials have with it. They are doing their best to follow the rules.

MegSmath
June 25th, 2006, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
I thought Masters switched and now uses the USA style of rules.
I did not realize this was legal, although for myself I would find this awkward.

USMS follows (and has always followed) USA's articles 101, 102, and 105, unless there is an exception. Breaststroke kick on fly is one of the exceptions. The exceptions are in Appendix B of the rule book. The exception concerning butterfly says:

"The breaststroke or whip kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with the dolphin kick at any time during the race. However, when the breaststroke or whip kick is used, the arms must be recovered over the top of the water with each breaststroke or whip kick, except after the last such kick before the turn or finish. After the start and after each turn, if the breaststroke or whip kick is used, only one kick is allowed prior to the arm pull that brings the swimmer to the surface."

And Dorothy, I agree with you that this would be an awkward way for me to swim fly! I tried it once and thought I would have to go into traction!

dorothyrde
June 25th, 2006, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by MegSmath

And Dorothy, I agree with you that this would be an awkward way for me to swim fly! I tried it once and thought I would have to go into traction!

:D :D