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Mel
July 11th, 2006, 01:39 PM
I realize this thread will create a lot of controversy.

Over the past five years I have worked very hard to develop clubs and increase membership in USMS. The very fabric of my work and others in this area is building relationships and comradairre within the LMSC and or Club. Small clubs and large teams are proud of their "elite" swimmers and boast of their successes. With this said, it is very disturbing to me as I read through the FINA World Championships Physch Sheets to see the number of elite swimmers "jumping ship" to other clubs to swim on "elite" relays. If USMS had "Team USMS" I would have no problem with everyone coming together for a team effort. I don't have a problem with four guys coming together who swam in college using the Worlds as reunion of sorts. Where I have problem is the swimmer or swimmers who have been a member of a club or LMSC for years and because of individual egos leaves his team. What this says to me is our "elite" swimmers ego is more important than his or her club. How do you think the other 3 swimmers who normally swims on the relay with the "elite" swimmer feels. We are good enough througout the year, however we are not good enough for the Worlds. Instead of swimming for his or her club so all members of the club can be proud of the "elite" swimmers accomplishments, it is more important to this swimmer he or she represent someone else at the Worlds for personal gratification. If the relay team does win and breaks a WR the record does not show USMS as the record holder, but the name of a club the swimmer transferred too.... what a shame...

It is regretable I bring up this discussion, but it tears at the very fabric of the USMS mission regarding building club or LMSC relationships...I realize what these swimmers are doing is within the rules.. I just think it is wrong.

Mel

geochuck
July 11th, 2006, 01:49 PM
The CASA in Ontario had a rule in the old days that you had to wait one year to get permission to change clubs. But now with the steady moving from one place to another that would not be feasible. The swimmers had to swim unattached for a year.

Jeff Commings
July 11th, 2006, 01:53 PM
If Worlds was a scored meet, I would have not changed teams.

That's all I have to say about that.

A.K.
July 11th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Do the other countries that participate group their elite together for relays? If so then we need to be as competitive and group USMS members together.
This would be under a National Team to represent the U.S. in International Competition.

I'm all for a "Team USMS" for Worlds or other International meets. The key is they would need to swim under the "Team USMS". This would only be for the Worlds or other International meets.

scyfreestyler
July 11th, 2006, 02:12 PM
I can certainly see what you are saying Mel. We are talking about Masters swimming here, there is no prize money involved and no million dollar advertisement contracts waiting for the gold medal winners. If the three team members who were left behind feel strongly about this they should simply refuse to swim relays with that individual when they return from Stanford.

Sabretooth Tiger
July 11th, 2006, 02:20 PM
I respect your opinion Mel . . . but for a "world championship" meet, if a group of diverse elite swimmers decide to join together in an effort to win or set a world record, more power to them. The choice to do so may or may not be difficult depending on the home team dynamic . . . but I certainly cannot begrudge the elite swimmer for moving in an effort to obtain a relay gold.

I speak as a slower swimmer who understands this dynamic when my teammates invite other faster swimmers to join them at events like the Maui Channel relay. For those to whom competition and winning is a priority, this is the only logical step. I think most of us non-elite folks can accept and appreciate this fact.

my 2 cents.

Frank Thompson
July 11th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Mel:

I know you brought this up back in 1988 and it seems to me nothing as changed in 18 years except maybe someone is not funding elite swimmers across the country for a Team USA club for the purpose of smashing USMS and World Records. I remember I had met some foreign swimmers in my age group at the meet you ran in 1992 and they were giving me the business about this practice at dinner. They told me that there national governing bodies forbidded them to do this practice and they thought it was elitist, controlling, and imperialistic that we were permitted by our USMS rules to do this. That as the largest masters national governing body of swimmers that we already have an advantage with our strong clubs and be permitted to build National Club teams is not playing on an even playing field. Most of them said to me that in their rules they have to swim Unattached for a year to switch clubs and then when they want to switch again they have to swim Unnattached for a year again to get back with there original clubs.

nyswim
July 11th, 2006, 02:37 PM
How is this any different from Nationals where states ( Colorado and Illinois ) combine teams to show up with 300 swimmers?

knelson
July 11th, 2006, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by nyswim
How is this any different from Nationals where states ( Colorado and Illinois ) combine teams to show up with 300 swimmers?

It's different in that it's cherry picking specific talent rather than just using a large geographic area to define a team.

Frank Thompson
July 11th, 2006, 02:57 PM
LMSC teams have everyone regardless of abilty swimming as part of their rosters. Some of these teams and I won't mention names because it has been talked about before on other threads recruit just elite swimmers for their rosters with the intention of breaking USMS and World Records. In the old days they used to try and win Championships but with the new scoring or no scoring in divisions its harder to do and most of the time some team locally either be LMSC or Club usually wins the team title. Clubs like my club, Michigan Masters is made up of teams and workout groups in our LMSC and we form relays based on who signs up and the age group of the swimmer. We do not recruit around the country for elite swimmers. Occasionally if a brother, sister, mom, dad, or other family members want to swim together, fine than its ok but it really comes down to the intent of the swimmer and what he/she wants out of the meet and team their representing. When they post the team rosters on this website people will be able to figure out who those teams are by the individual swimmers they know who have represented a team or club for years.

Edward The Head
July 11th, 2006, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Sabretooth Tiger
I respect your opinion Mel . . . but for a "world championship" meet, if a group of diverse elite swimmers decide to join together in an effort to win or set a world record, more power to them. The choice to do so may or may not be difficult depending on the home team dynamic . . . but I certainly cannot begrudge the elite swimmer for moving in an effort to obtain a relay gold.

I've never understood it either. It's only a record, why shouldn't the fastest people be able to get together and swim. I find it also leaves out the unattatched swimmers as well. I think they should even see if the four best swimmers that come should do a couple of relays. The whole team idea is strange to me, we're not in school or anything like that anymore.

Paul Smith
July 11th, 2006, 03:23 PM
Mel,
I consider you a friend and have the utmost respect for you and your opinions as always. I will however disagree and in my own humble opinion see the glass here as "half full" vs. "half empty".

My position has always been that this is the world championships and thus should be a competition held between countries not clubs....just as in USS. Fina on the other hand has a rule that does not allow this to happen, one I hope will be changed down the road.

I'd very much like to see USMS grow, in all areas that we represent; fitness, competition, etc. etc. and I beleive that publicity helps. Not a lot of interest in our media in swimmig to begin with and with Boulder Aquatic masters relays challenging Club Chelsea it would probably be much the same.....however Team USA 160+ up against Team Australia 160+ in the 200 free relay sounds pretty good!

I will be at Stanford proudly swimming for Team TYR along with some friends and competitors that I may or may not ever swam with back in college.....not for ego as you see it, but getting a chance to be a team mate with someone I've never had that chance with before.

As for my club mates back home, if they would prefer that I not be allowed to come back and swim for them next year I'll grant that wish. I've explained to anyone who's asked why I made the decision and have had 100% support....most understood that there is no team scoring at worlds so I haven't taken points away.

And as far as leaving 3 swimmers behind, I see it as a chance for a 4th swimmer who has never been on our relay to have that chance at an incredible meet such as this.....half full!

PS: Indeed some of our foreign friends are banding together as well.....

Frank Thompson
July 11th, 2006, 03:27 PM
Ed:

It is my understanding that FINA does not want masters swimming to compete as National Federations but as they are naturally, like the club you would normally represent at Local, State or National competition. There have been suggestions for our FINA reps to go to the FINA technical meetings and get this changed so all of the masters swimmers could represent there National federations like swimmers in the Olympics/World Championships do. It has been said that to do this with FINA would be like hitting a brick wall. They discourage this and want to keep things the way they are.

That is why there is such lax rules regarding eligibility representation of masters swimmers with FINA. You could swim for any country or federation in good standing at any time and there is no eligibility or citzenship requirements like there is for the Olympic/Word Championship swimmers. You could recruit the best swimmers in the World and form a relay at these World Championships and it would be perfectly legal under the FINA rules to do that. You could not do this under Swimmming with the current rules FINA has for federations to follow.

scyfreestyler
July 11th, 2006, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
Mel,
I consider you a friend and have the utmost respect for you and your opinions as always. I will however disagree and in my own humble opinion see the glass here as "half full" vs. "half empty".

My position has always been that this is the world championships and thus should be a competition held between countries not clubs....just as in USS. Fina on the other hand has a rule that does not allow this to happen, one I hope will be changed down the road.

I'd very much like to see USMS grow, in all areas that we represent; fitness, competition, etc. etc. and I beleive that publicity helps. Not a lot of interest in our media in swimmig to begin with and with Boulder Aquatic masters relays challenging Club Chelsea it would probably be much the same.....however Team USA 160+ up against Team Australia 160+ in the 200 free relay sounds pretty good!

I will be at Stanford proudly swimming for Team TYR along with some friends and competitors that I may or may not ever swam with back in college.....not for ego as you see it, but getting a chance to be a team mate with someone I've never had that chance with before.

As for my club mates back home, if they would prefer that I not be allowed to come back and swim for them next year I'll grant that wish. I've explained to anyone who's asked why I made the decision and have had 100% support....most understood that there is no team scoring at worlds so I haven't taken points away.

And as far as leaving 3 swimmers behind, I see it as a chance for a 4th swimmer who has never been on our relay to have that chance at an incredible meet such as this.....half full!

PS: Indeed some of our foreign friends are banding together as well.....

Good argument.

It is obviously a very personal and individual decision to make and not everybody is going to agree regardless of which path you choose.

TheGoodSmith
July 11th, 2006, 03:54 PM
Mel,

P-LEASE. This argument is ridiculous and childish. If Paul, Greg Rhodenbaugh, Rich Saeger and I want to try to break a World Record in one or two of the relays at Worlds, who would really oppose this effort? My god it's hard enough to find 4 guys our own age to show up at nationals let alone 4 very fast guys. We've all known each other at one level or another for over a quarter of a century. 6 months ago we got on the phone and tried to make something amusing and worthwhile happend at Worlds. It keeps us motivated in a small way. None of us wants to be the fat slow poke on the relay. Really, I mean what kind of person would outright oppose us getting together for this kind of an event ? I have met no one that has opposed our intended effort so far. The fact that we had to go unattached and then join another team to make it happen is just an administrative a pain in the butt. USMS should allow all USMS swimmers to represent a Team USMS at Worlds automatically.

Mel, this is going to be an amusing and entertaining event for all of us. We all laughed and smiled when Rowdy dove in for Colorado Masters with Paul, Robert-Paul and I to break the 200yd free relay at Indy several years ago. It was a lot of fun to see Rowdy swim fast again. It's the same thing here at Worlds.

I have been a "team whore" in the past and swum for Dallas Aquatic Masters, Longhorn Masters, unattached, and Colorado Masters. I will continue to swim with my friends.... regardless.

John Smith

geochuck
July 11th, 2006, 04:06 PM
Ringers have allways been around. I swam in a boy scout meet when I was a kid, our team won, I was not a boy scout. I swam for the Hamilton Sea Cadets against swimmers from other sea cadet teams I was not a Sea Cadet. My brother Bob Swam for MacMaster U Theological school he did not go there. I swam for London YMCA a town 90 miles from Hamilton at Yale University pool I was a ringer I never even belonged to the Y.

They stack the teams at the Master meets in Canada, Allstar teams against club teams. Provice against province. You can never stop the desire to win although in the Master meet I swam for the local team.
Our relay teams came 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th behind the loaded teams. Guess what we still had fun. And I won a $200 door prize.

Peter Cruise
July 11th, 2006, 04:12 PM
Wherever Tall Paul and GoodSmith end up swimming, I sense an open bar somewhere...

kokkole
July 11th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Paul Smith


PS: Indeed some of our foreign friends are banding together as well.....

in my country (Italy) this is not allowed according to national federation rules. all the relays that you see at the worlds will be teams that have been racing together during the past season. there will be at least one VERY HOT male 200 medley relay.

where are the relay psych sheets? I can't find them.

thanks!

jim clemmons
July 11th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Team Whore

Maybe "Team Hussy" wouldn't be quite so (potentially) offensive.

But I understand.

ande
July 11th, 2006, 04:56 PM
who cares what consenting masters swimmers do behind closed pool doors

will this really destroy the fabric of USMS teams

some of these swimmers train on their own

let them play with their friends
enjoy their performances and celebrate their accomplishments

isn't masters swimming about training to stay healthy and discovering what people are capable of as the years go by?

ande



Originally posted by Mel
I realize this thread will create a lot of controversy.

Over the past five years I have worked very hard to develop clubs and increase membership in USMS. The very fabric of my work and others in this area is building relationships and comradairre within the LMSC and or Club. Small clubs and large teams are proud of their "elite" swimmers and boast of their successes. With this said, it is very disturbing to me as I read through the FINA World Championships Physch Sheets to see the number of elite swimmers "jumping ship" to other clubs to swim on "elite" relays. If USMS had "Team USMS" I would have no problem with everyone coming together for a team effort. I don't have a problem with four guys coming together who swam in college using the Worlds as reunion of sorts. Where I have problem is the swimmer or swimmers who have been a member of a club or LMSC for years and because of individual egos leaves his team. What this says to me is our "elite" swimmers ego is more important than his or her club. How do you think the other 3 swimmers who normally swims on the relay with the "elite" swimmer feels. We are good enough througout the year, however we are not good enough for the Worlds. Instead of swimming for his or her club so all members of the club can be proud of the "elite" swimmers accomplishments, it is more important to this swimmer he or she represent someone else at the Worlds for personal gratification. If the relay team does win and breaks a WR the record does not show USMS as the record holder, but the name of a club the swimmer transferred too.... what a shame...

It is regretable I bring up this discussion, but it tears at the very fabric of the USMS mission regarding building club or LMSC relationships...I realize what these swimmers are doing is within the rules.. I just think it is wrong.

Mel

Rich Abrahams
July 11th, 2006, 05:06 PM
Kokkole, you just made my day with your "VERY HOT" male 200+ medley relay.

I'm swimming on a 200+ male medley relay that could easily be criticized (by those who care) as cherry picking elite swimmers in order to establish a new standard. However, the other 3 swimmers on the relay probably wouldn't have gotten to swim on any realys at Worlds without switching their LMSC to mine. Also, I've totally bonded with two of these teamates over the years and it has been a long standing desire to swim together as buddies.

Anyway, look for the older guys wearing our relay motto T-shirts ("RELEASE THE HOUNDS") and say hello. A post relay beer may be in order.

Rich

Its a slow show
July 11th, 2006, 05:21 PM
I have been on a few relays which were pure right from my own team and have lost world records to these "special hand picked" teams before and will probably lose a couple at World's. Tell me would that make you happy, you "Colorado studs", if the shoe was on the other foot???

Peter Cruise
July 11th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Heck, Rich- you would beat most relays just swimming it by yourself! The rest of the hounds can start early on the beers.

Frank Thompson
July 11th, 2006, 05:22 PM
Ande:

I am going to respond and link the post of a year ago because I had these discussions with both of the Smith's and don't want to make a trip down memory lane.

A question I have is what is Team TYR? Is it like there version of what Speedo does with there stars? Will all of the team members be wearing the latest modern TYR suits with the advanced technology? I not kidding here. I saw some of the swimmers on the team and they are all excellent and I sure the Team TYR might be the club with the most World Records in the meet.

The reason I bring this up is because maybe this manufacturer wants to use the masters market the way Speedo, Nike, and Arena do with Olympic swimmers. I ask of the Smith's not to be funny here but are they sponsoring all of you as a total team or are they just letting you use the equipment, such as suits, goggles, caps, warm ups, etc.

I guess in today's professional world of competitive swimming that maybe someone sees a potential to get into the masters market and sell there product. With people like Yana, Erik Vendt, and Morcova they can add masters swimmers to the advertisement. Like a quote of "Our swimmers set XXX FINA World Records using the XXX TYR".

TheGoodSmith
July 11th, 2006, 05:39 PM
Frank,

Rich Saeger swims for Team TYR out in California, and we all needed a neutral team to join for the relays so we figured since there were no team points being scored at Worlds this made obvious sense.

TYR of course wants us to wear their equipment which we will do gladly. They are not giving us anything more than some swimwear products in order to attend the meet jointly.


John Smith

scyfreestyler
July 11th, 2006, 06:06 PM
I must say that between this issue, the parking issue ( a non-issue in my book), and the pool length issue this meet is going to bring about a boatload of controversy. God only knows what the next issue will be.

gull
July 11th, 2006, 06:10 PM
Not that anyone asked, but I have absolutely no problem with this, unless Team TYR poses seductively on the cover of Glamour.

scyfreestyler
July 11th, 2006, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Not that anyone asked, but I have absolutely no problem with this, unless Team TYR poses seductively on the cover of Glamour.

Shoot Gull, I figured you and Geek would have been part of the cherry picking.

Paul Smith
July 11th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Slow Show......competing is far more about losing than winning, I've had far more experience with that than breaking world records.....and I'm happy to shake the hand of the person/team that beats me (us)......and use it for motivation to train harder for next time.

And by the way......do you know what your talking about with regard to "hand picked" teams? John and I are constantly harrassing old farts like us who have not been in the sport for years to get back in the pool and come out to play.....case in point was getting Rowdy to show up for a relay in Indy.....

And in case you want to throw around the "elite" crap for going after guys like Rowdy, I'm happy to send you a list with probably 100 names on it of folks I've tried to get into the sport and competing that can't even make the time standards.....just becuse I like this sport and want it to grow.....your free to do the same......the morethe merrier!

Frank....the folks at TYR have been great and yes we have gotten some awesome gear but we're paying our own relay fees, entries, etc. But as John pointed ou for me swimming with some great old farts (and young) like Saeger is what its all about (by the way....I'm the fat one on that relay!)

ande
July 11th, 2006, 06:37 PM
for many the $12 parking issue is a non issue
for me it's just a nuisance but for some who don't make or have much, it's challenge.

haven't read about the pool length crisis yet

ande


Originally posted by scyfreestyler
I must say that between this issue, the parking issue ( a non-issue in my book), and the pool length issue this meet is going to bring about a boatload of controversy. God only knows what the next issue will be.

Frank Thompson
July 11th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Paul:

I thought that SMU guys and Texas guys were not a good mix. Well maybe 25 years ago. Because TYR is not paying for your entries or relays, would they get mad if you decided to wear a Fastskin II for one of your swims?

knelson
July 11th, 2006, 06:58 PM
Despite my earlier "cherry picking" comment, I'm on the fence about this issue. If team points were at stake then, yeah, it would be more of an issue to jump ship like this. But I can certainly see someone's side who has a great group that has actually been training together with the intent of going after a relay mark only to get beat out by a hand-picked group who've been training thousands of miles apart.

LindsayNB
July 11th, 2006, 07:05 PM
The crux of this issue is that relays are a team event. What is the meaning of a relay event if the swimmers aren't related in any way other than their desire to win gold or a world record?

With the new attitude swimming on a relay with your club you can pretty much bet you will lose to four swimmers who are getting together for this particular meet.

Four fast swimmers who get together for Worlds are basically doing the same thing as four fast Olympic level swimmers getting together and finding some obscure country that will give them all citizenship so they can win Olympic gold, except easier. Both are legal.

Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to write rules to prevent this sort of thing so it will happen and we all might as well get used to it. Life has never been fair and never will be.:rolleyes:

Its a slow show
July 11th, 2006, 07:14 PM
So a hand picked team, no matter where they swim, is OK to break the records and a group strictly from one team dosen't mean any more then that. Don't lecture me about enjoying swimming or anything. I think a hand picked team from a state or country is dead wrong when it comes to breaking records. Anytime you want to go head-to-head let me know I think I can find a few guys to give you a run.

gull
July 11th, 2006, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by scyfreestyler
Shoot Gull, I figured you and Geek would have been part of the cherry picking.

In my dreams. I'm just going to have to outlive the other guys in my age group. Geek, on the other hand, has been recruited by Team Noodle.

Sabretooth Tiger
July 11th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Its a slow show
So a hand picked team, no matter where they swim, is OK to break the records and a group strictly from one team dosen't mean any more then [sic] that.

Exactly.

:cool:

Our selection of fine wines/whines include:

Parking, free or paid?
Pool's too short?
Deadlines . . . absolute or merely guidelines?
What, handpicked all-star relays??? . . . oh nooooo Mr. Bill . . .
Amanda Beard . . . Olympic Gold Medalist/Model or Slutty Tart?
Bike racers . . . athletes or drug addicts?

STOP THE MADNESS! GO FOR A SWIM . . . HAVE A BEER . . . CHILL :D

geochuck
July 11th, 2006, 07:26 PM
It is probably time to stop having relay races. You see I have solved that problem. Now the next thing is how do we stop teams importing ringers to win a team championship.

Allen Stark
July 11th, 2006, 08:02 PM
OK it's sour grapes,but MY relay WR was beaten last year by a cherry picked relay. If you want to know who doesn't like the idea ask the team that maybe waited 3 years for everyone to be the right age for a shot at a WR(which maybe the only time in their lives they could set a WR) only to be beaten by 4 swimmers who only know each other from Top Ten Times.

A.K.
July 11th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Does the U.S. get hammered in forums for brining ringers to the Olympics?

No

Rock on guys/gals, I hope you smash the record for USMS and if it spurs others (countries) to do the same, Great News. At least we will be able to see the best swim against the best.

Then we will have a competition (Worlds) as close as we can get to the actual Olympics.

More records- more international competition = more public exposure / Master Swimmers.

hornHead
July 11th, 2006, 08:46 PM
I think the issue that Allen has is the fact that a certain USMS club has routinely used a swimmer, who is a full time resident citizen of Canada, who only sets foot in the United States for the purpose of setting records.

geochuck
July 11th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Is he a draft dodger? Opps no draft dodgers anymore...

hornHead
July 11th, 2006, 08:53 PM
No George, he is not a draft dodger. As far as I can tell he has also not played for the Brooklyn or L.A club either.

geochuck
July 11th, 2006, 09:00 PM
Very good Canadian humor.

Paul Smith
July 11th, 2006, 10:00 PM
George & Peter........the biggest mistake I've seen so far is not getting you two on board with us.....we have a great respect for the art of humor and Canadians who will pick up the bar tab! I guess we'll just have to settle for Mark Gill buying Coors lite!

By the way, in spite of the controversy one of the coolest things we have going is a relay that reunites 3 of the 4 infamous Rapp sisters: Susan (now Vonderlippe), Betsy (now Cleary) & Jenny (now Stein)......I don't think they've swam together since high school!

And for the whiners out there......if we were hell bent on nothing but records this relay would not have happend because they would have been split up....... and by the way, I don't think Betsy has ever swam masters and Jenny made one meet 3 years ago.

Its a slow show
July 11th, 2006, 10:14 PM
your relays not the Rapp sisters. Records for hire I guess that is the name of the game. I guess its like hathery trout vs. native if you can discern the difference!!!

knelson
July 12th, 2006, 12:11 AM
I was actually hoping for an all Smith relay.

jpheather
July 12th, 2006, 12:27 AM
FYI, Team TYR has a whopping 28 people on their roster, I don't think they're going to be taking over any pools in the near future. I doubt all 28 are going to Worlds either.

They were also the most cooperative bunch in getting their registrations and team affiliations in order in plenty of time to get their entries in.

kokkole
July 12th, 2006, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Rich Abrahams
Kokkole, you just made my day with your "VERY HOT" male 200+ medley relay.

I'm swimming on a 200+ male medley relay that could easily be criticized (by those who care) as cherry picking elite swimmers in order to establish a new standard. However, the other 3 swimmers on the relay probably wouldn't have gotten to swim on any realys at Worlds without switching their LMSC to mine. Also, I've totally bonded with two of these teamates over the years and it has been a long standing desire to swim together as buddies.

Anyway, look for the older guys wearing our relay motto T-shirts ("RELEASE THE HOUNDS") and say hello. A post relay beer may be in order.

Rich

oooops - sorry Rich, i expressed myself wrong. :rolleyes: (again...)

this relay is age 120. they will be swimming the 200 medley relay.


you guys will be out in front of the crowd on your own!!

I'll tell the guys to look for you for the beer anyway, OK?

By the way, I think it would be fun for the relays to be made up of athletes of the same country, instead of the same team. What do you all think of that? So, there would be USA relay teams, Canada relay teams, Italy relay teams. That way the top masters swimmers could represent their countries without having to turn their backs on the teams where they usually swim. It would also allow countries to be represented by their top masters swimmers.

Ciao!

TheGoodSmith
July 12th, 2006, 11:57 AM
You say.... "What is the meaning of a relay event if the swimmers aren't related in any way other than their desire to win gold or a world record?"...... This is an event a level beyond USMS Nationals. Tell me, what substantive relation do any US swimmers have when they compete on relays with other US citizens at intl. USS competitions? They do it to swim fast. Team TYR will do it for similar reasons and above all to have a good time. Incidently, our relay all knows each other already. I swam against Greg Rhodenbaugh 100 years ago at the Ohio Highschool State Championship and in college and Rich Saeger as well in college both at Conference and NCAAs.

You say.... "Four fast swimmers who get together for Worlds are basically doing the same thing as four fast Olympic level swimmers getting together and finding some obscure country that will give them all citizenship so they can win Olympic gold, except easier." ...... You are missing the point regarding the level of competition. No one is changing countries here. This is World Masters event not a USMS Nationals event. Now, if it was Solar System Masters Championships, we'd certainly recruit from other countries.... :-)

John Smith

gull
July 12th, 2006, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Now, if it was Solar System Masters Championships, we'd certainly recruit from other countries....

Of course Team Jupiter would have an unfair advantage, being accustomed to swimming under intense pressure.

knelson
July 12th, 2006, 01:11 PM
The toughest swim in the solar system has got to be the swim around Uranus.

Matt S
July 12th, 2006, 01:21 PM
Once again, we get to read comments in this discussion forum from people who used to be the fastest kid in the pool, and now they're not, and now they want a rule out-lawing the people who beat them (or are likely to beat them, or could conceivably beat them if someone takes this to its illogical extreme).

OH PUHLEASE! One of the attractions of Masters (for me anyway) is that we are loosey-goosey about a lot of things and not hung up on "fairness." If Tall Paul and his South West Conference buddies want to form a relay for the purpose of having a reunion and swimming fast, go for it (as if 99% of us have any chance of winning that race in their absence). If someone in USMS gets the attitude that "winning" in the only thing that matters (for a piece of medal comparable to one you could find at the thrift store for a buck), and wants to do all this crazy stuff to make it happen; that's bad and not Masterish. What would be worse is a lot of nutty rules, and exceptions to the rules, and drug tests, etc. etc. that would disallow far more legitimate swims just for fun than would stop actual "cheating."

Matt S

P.S. Oh Tall One, you've still not said anything about your availability on Sunday evening for chilled, malted beverages.

LindsayNB
July 12th, 2006, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
You are missing the point regarding the level of competition.

With all due respect I think you missed my point entirely.

The event in question is the FINA World Masters Championships and whether you agree with their reasoning or not FINA has defined that teams are to be made up of swimmers from the same club not the same country. Just because you want it to be a country against country competition doesn't mean it is. If country against country competition is what you want organizing your own competition is an option. You have found a way to defeat the intended purpose of the rules and give yourself an advantage over teams that abide by the spirit as well as the letter of the rules. That's your choice.

If the four fastest non-US swimmers got together and swam for Outer Hypothetia and beat out the US for Olympic Gold because they decided that the Olympics were about four people getting together to see what they could do rather than country on country competition people would have a valid basis for objecting, even if it was all done perfectly legal. The parallel is pretty exact.

Personally I don't care one way or another, I'm just making the case for why this isn't just about four guys and what they want to do, it's also about the other competitors and other people holding and contending for world records.

Its a slow show
July 12th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Some of these "recruited relays" are there to win and break records. I think the win part is OK but to beat records held by groups all from the same team is just not right. I also have a problem with states competing as a team at Nationals. I mean come on California as one team. Gee, do you think they would win and break records in relays?? I have been on relays that have lost records in this way so try to put yourself in my position.

geochuck
July 12th, 2006, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Its a slow show
Some of these "recruited relays" are there to win and break records. I think the win part is OK but to beat records held by groups all from the same team is just not right. I also have a problem with states competing as a team at Nationals. I mean come on California as one team. Gee, do you think they would win and break records in relays?? I have been on relays that have lost records in this way so try to put yourself in my position.
Do you think it is cheating, something like adding steroids to your team??

Paul T. Trevisan
July 12th, 2006, 05:05 PM
I have never been able to swim a relay at a large national event because we generally do not have a large enough team participation at the National meets to field even a fun relay. We have great people on the team but they just do not turn out for the Big meets or our ages are so spread out. It would be fun to swim a relay at Nationals or Worlds! Swimming for a new team, combining or even creating a team that has very active swimmers in your age bracket would make that meet a lot more fun and not just about your own personal achievements or failures.

I guess its to late to change teams and swim in a relay??????? I guess I will go drink wine that day.

TheGoodSmith
July 12th, 2006, 05:23 PM
Lindsay,

Contrary to you supposed logic, we have not found a way to defeat the intended purpose of the rules. To suggest that any dues paying USMS member can not switch teams at any time for any personal reason is absurd.

Contrary to your accusingly selfish statement about four guys doing what they want to do, note that ALL the competitors are equally able to do the same thing should they so chose. You are free to cast judgement about what your think is ethically right given your interpretation of FINA rules. But in the end, it's about connecting with old friends, enjoying masters swimming and trying to create a fast relay.

Much to do about nothing in my opinion.


John Smith

scyfreestyler
July 12th, 2006, 05:31 PM
I am tempted to come and photograph this notorious relay but the parking fee's are a bit steep I understand. :p

Mel
July 12th, 2006, 05:33 PM
Wow! did I touch a nerve or something. It seems I have ruffled some feathers.

I am overwhelmed by the enthusasium, the energy, and the passion that many of you have shown in replying to this thread.

First, as I said in my original comments, swimmers " Jumping" from one club to another to put together an "elite" relay is totaling within the rules. I just think it is wrong. However, if FINA allowed countries to put together country teams e.g. "Team USMS" that would be fine, but that is not the rule and therefore we must swim as clubs. Since most of you don't like the rule and think in the FINA World Championships we should swim as countries in Team Events (Relays) then change it. I want to see Mr Abrahams and his new found bonded friends, and John Smith (Team Whore) at the USMS Convention in Dearborn, Michigan in September. I want them to contact Rob Copeland, USMS President, and ask them to put them on the USMS International Committee and when he does show the same passion and reason for swimming the relays to help change the rule. So....if you are passioned about change then do something about it. Do you vote when there is an election or do you say my vote dosen't count and taxes will go up any way and I will find a way to get an extra deduction to make up the difference. If you want change you have to work for it, just don't find an easy way around the rule to accomplish your own personal goals.

Now that I know there is a "Team Whore", I hope you break the record you are seeking, however I have 3 guys on my team and with you we could break any record you set.....So I will be looking for your registration in 2007 to be on the YMCA Indy SwimFit team.

Mel

Rob Copeland
July 12th, 2006, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Mel
I realize this thread will create a lot of controversy. Well Mel it looks like you were right.

While I personally believe that a club should generally be a group of people who train together, I fully recognize the rights of USMS members to form and join clubs of their choosing. It is not against our rules, it is not a loophole and it is not cheating. Lindsay, I can’t speak for your rules in Canada, but here in the USA we allow freedom of choice.

If John is of the opinion that, “…it's about connecting with old friends, enjoying masters swimming…” how can you fault this? We are all entitled to our opinions.

As for breaking records, long ago when I was fast and masters records were slow I learned that nobody owns a record, the best you can do is break them. So if Team TYR breaks a record, good for them. Don’t worry, someday someone else will come along and break these.

Peter Cruise
July 12th, 2006, 06:25 PM
Years ago I felt quite passionate about this issue; latterly, I tend to the live and let live school. As a matter of fact, I can see some appeal in selecting a USNats to compete with teams based on these forums: as already noted, 'Team Smith', 'The Special K's (where are those girls?), 'Team Facile' (me, Geek, Gull etc), Team Thesaurus(Matt, Lindsay) Team 'Late Bloomers'...whoops, only one allowed on that team...

Paul Smith
July 12th, 2006, 07:07 PM
It should be pointed out that what is now being seen as a "Smith" or "TYR" thing in swimming for a team/club that a peron doesn't train with is extremally common......we're just on point here and willing to speak our minds and happy to take any flak that comes with it......but look a little closer at those psch sheets!

For that matter, go back thru any prior nationals/worlds/etc. and look a little closer at the relays.....you would most likely be blown away at how few are "pure" in the way that a few people here think things should be.

And Mel.....lets examine something else if we may. How many pools in the Indanapolis area does Indy Swim Fit control? Don't get me wrong.....you've been exceptional at what you've done in your area, but you do have quite a monopoly......something some would/have pointed to as a bit hypocritical in your criticism of combined teams!

Mr. Shirley......if I haven't been tarred and feathered by Sunday I be glad to have you buy me a beer :)

LindsayNB
July 12th, 2006, 07:35 PM
All I did was explain the logic which underlies the dim view some people hold of this practice.
As I've said twice, I personally don't care.
If you could find an actual flaw in the argument I made that would be of greater interest to me than the rhetorical tack you have chosen.

Some people believe the intent of the FINA rules is that swimmers will compete with their own club and have a particular mental model of what a club is. Some people believe that technical legality is an insufficient basis for failing to respect the intentions of the host organization. It's really that simple. I did not say you had to care what these people thought of your actions.

Rob, here in Canada the rules are pretty much the same as yours and as a result there are two provinces that will be sending teams under the guise of a provincial "club". The bigger and generally more successful clubs think this is a scandal, the competitors from the smaller clubs are generally more approving.

The first nail in the coffin of "club" competition was when people accepted the desire to swim relays as justification for super clubs instead of sticking to the use of exhibition relays. After that it was one long slippery slope. Please excuse my mixing of metaphors.

swimdog
July 12th, 2006, 08:43 PM
Ohmygoodness, how would we choose these "Team USMS" relays if that rule passed? And we thought the Phelps/Hall decision @ the Olympics caused a stir!! The forum couldn't CONTAIN the controversy!!

I just hope that, as this IS masters swimming, there would be a "holding your liquor" component in the selection process. That would catapult me to my only shot at the evil "elite" pool.... :-)

Sandie

Paul Smith
July 12th, 2006, 09:12 PM
Sandie......Laura and I have drank with you and Kevin, and sorry buddy but you (and Kevin) would NEVER qualify under the "holding your liquor" standard!

Cheap wine & cold beer......the essence of TRUE masters swimmers!

swimdog
July 12th, 2006, 10:49 PM
....how......DARE......you!


so Team Tyr elitism now extends to the bar! TRAVESTY!

that's it, i'm cherry-picking a team of barflies from across the country to take you up on those fighting words.....
;)

kokkole
July 13th, 2006, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
but look a little closer at those psch sheets!


i still can't find the psych sheets for the relays :confused:

can someone post a link?

THANKS!

Swimmer Bill
July 13th, 2006, 04:19 AM
Well, it's one way for TYR to have a strong presence at the meet...considering the vending situation and all...

Paul Smith
July 13th, 2006, 11:17 AM
Sandie Sandbagger......I checked out your entry times, looks like your trying to finish early and beat everyone to the bar.....?

Kokkole......nothing posted yet, I was refering to the individual psych sheets.......

"Swimmer" Bill? Are you gonna compete this go around or go hang out at a cushy hotel at the beach again some place.....By the way, the Colorado team said to tell you to come drink with them again anytime......seems like only you and Clay Britt took us up on the offer in FL!

geochuck
July 13th, 2006, 11:52 AM
Good bye for a while you will not here from me for a while, I will hit all the bars I can in the evening after I stop driving on my trip home to Hamilton Ontario in the Mohome. I am leaving this afternoon. 3 or 4 days to cover the 3000 miles, a little slower than if I went by car an extra night or two at the bar.

You can talk about the relay ringers, TYR relays, shaving down your pools and bodies, Amanda Beards Bod (which looks good to me), the tran sex swimmers and webbed fingers and toes.

The only way you will hear from me on the road is if my wireless lap top steals someones signal on the road.

Swimmer Bill
July 13th, 2006, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
"Swimmer" Bill? Are you gonna compete this go around or go hang out at a cushy hotel at the beach again some place.....By the way, the Colorado team said to tell you to come drink with them again anytime......seems like only you and Clay Britt took us up on the offer in FL!

You guys must've had a good time because I never made it to the Beer Garden in Coral Springs. I will be working at the meet, but because it's such a long event I'm probably staying with friends rather than a hotel. I entered because I thought our club might have relays, but we don't...so I'm going to skip the swimming this time. But if I fall in, I hope you'll throw me a noodle!

:)

bbpolhill
July 13th, 2006, 04:46 PM
not that anyone cares what I think since I have only been swimming for a year and only qualified for 1 event at Worlds (I don't think anybody will be contacting me to swim on their relay, but...

If the rules allow swimmers to combine with anyone they want without restriction, then I don't think the participants should be criticized for their actions. It's their experience to enjoy as they wish within the framework of the rules. It wouldn't be difficult to script the rules to prevent the action, but obviously the ruling bodies were not concerned enough to address the issue. (I am too new to Masters swimming to even understand what rules are in effect where).

The one thing everyone seems to agree on, however, is that every one is playing by the rules. It appears that the criticisms and appeals should be directed towards the governing bodies and not at the swimmers who sound like they are just trying to have a good time (pun intended).

geochuck
July 13th, 2006, 06:44 PM
If I was there I would welcome you to my relay team. Relays are not important when every team uses ringers. No club spirit or national pride when you parachute in swimmers, but you can get free swim wear. The only time I believe in mix and match is at the grocery store.

LindsayNB
July 13th, 2006, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by bbpolhill
It wouldn't be difficult to script the rules to prevent the action, but obviously the ruling bodies were not concerned enough to address the issue.

So far all the proposed cures have been worse than the disease.

Someone here said that in some places you have to swim unattached for a year before you can start swimming for a different club. If your company transfered you to a new city would you want to swim unattached for a year before you could swim with a club in your new location?

Is freedom of association more important than fostering club spirit? Different people will answer differently depending on circumstances.

Does custom or tradition or intent or rationale have any value or does everything come down to the letter of the law? Again, people will differ.

It creates interesting dilemmas for governing bodies, which is my interest in the topic. If you've got an answer do let us know!

Paul Smith
July 13th, 2006, 09:21 PM
George & Lindsay,
This is masters swimming and many folks here have spoken up quite loudly about their belief that USMS should be more about fostering growth based on our "core" which is NOT the competitive athlete......but the fitness swimmer.......and growth of the sport as a whole.

Now that the world championships are here, a few of us who want to reunite or get together as a team are being bashed by the same folks who have so vocally opposed the slant in any way toward the small percentage of competitive swimmers.......sour grapes possibly? Hypocrisy? Who knows.

I'm proudbly swimming with a group of people I know and respect and representing the USA at this meet. If you two guys and "no show" want to call me/us ringers than fine.....go have a great meet and put an asterik next to our relyas if they happen to break a record.

As for me, I'll be happy to hang out with the 99% of people out there I know and respect who support/don't care about the teams at worlds/nationals who have worked hard pulling swimmers into this sport/competition and are looking forward to being a part of their team.

Ringers with no club spirit/freedom of association....you guys have no idea what your talking about in my situation.....give me a break!

Sam Perry
July 13th, 2006, 09:35 PM
I for one hope someday to make the Team TYR cut. Seems like a heck of an honor to be asked to swim with a group as stong as this.

Even though I have entered World's this year, I will not be going. Injuries have plagued my life again so training has been non existent.

Good luck to everyone going and I would love to see Team TYR break some records. In a few years when I am back up to speed (no pun intended), maybe I can be a part of a future relay to break their record.

Even though I won't be there, I will drink a beer or two (per half hour) thinking of all the fun y'all are having!

Its a slow show
July 13th, 2006, 09:35 PM
so your about 6 inchs shorter to give everyone a fair shot. Master swimmers should be no more then 6 ft. tall. I am taking this idea to committee and hopefully have it ruled on and enforced before World's OR you can buy me beers at the meet and I will hold off, its up to you.

Mel
July 13th, 2006, 10:11 PM
To be honest, I was not aware of Team Tyr until this thread...I was referring to many others....Oh well you do what you gotta do, have fun break records....Lets go on to another subject.

Mel

Paul Smith
July 13th, 2006, 10:40 PM
Sam.......would love to have you as a teamate ANY time, which by the way you probably don't know we already are! We got into AZ last week.....have been woring out with Brophy in the mornings (will be there tomorrow before flying out for the Mission meet)........show up, come have coffee afterwards!

No show......sorry, I only buy drinks for people not afraid of telling me there name!

Mel......as always, I'll by you a beer/coffee any day....and would proudly swim for you any day if ever given the chance!

Said my piece(s) on this thread....time to move on and focus on the meet.

LindsayNB
July 13th, 2006, 11:19 PM
Paul, I hope you have a great meet at Worlds and swim a personal best in each of your events. In fact, I hope everyone who goes enjoys themselves, and enjoys the company of their teammates and new and old friends alike.

Mswimming
July 14th, 2006, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
(will be there tomorrow before flying out for the Mission meet)


I'm swimming in that meet as well and while looking through the psych sheets I saw your name and wondered if that was the same Paul Smith from the forum. I hope you swim fast.

Kevin

Frank Thompson
July 14th, 2006, 11:59 AM
I was looking over the Team TYR team roster and recognized a lot of names from past AAU, USS/USA, Olympic Trials, Olympics, and USMS Natiional Meets. Names like Jeff Commings, Anna Pettis Scott, Greg Rhodenbaugh, Rich Saeger, and Susan Von Der Lippe (RAP). Oh yes and Robert Paul, John C, and Paul L, the Smiths. In fact, this relay with Rowdy Gaines, won the 200 Free Relay in 2004, at Indy, with a 1:24.05 and smashing the record and beat the second place team by 5.89 seconds. I remember watching that relay and seeing a great leadoff by Rowdy Gaines, but it must of not been him because the Record in the Top Ten said he swam the anchor leg when in fact I though one of the Smith's did. Anyway I wonder if that same relay will be assembled and who will be the 4th person or any persons with the Smith's because the possibilities are endless.

Which brings me to my next question. Team TYR has an Ace in there card deck that no one has mentioned and I noticed immediately. He is one of ony six people on the 26 person roster than is not an Individual Event All American. Of the 6 people that are not individual All American, three have been named USMS Relay All Americans and this Ace is not a Relay All American. In fact he has never been in the USMS Top Ten.

The person I am referring to is maybe the greatest swimmer on there roster. His name is Vladimir Pyshnenko and he placed 5th in the 200 Meter Free at the 1992 Olympic Games. He was also on the United Team (Russia) that took the Gold medal in the 800 Free Relay in a World Record time of 7:11.95. In fact that was the first time in Olympic history the USA had lost that Relay. That World Record stood for 7 years until the Aussies got it. But what he is famous for is that he had the second fastest split of anyone in those Olympic Games in the Relay at 1:46.58 and even beat his countryman and Olympic Gold Medalist in the Individual Event, Evgeni Sadovyi who went 1:46.83 and the only other person to go faster at those games was Holmertz of Sweden and he went 1:46.16. In fact at that time Vladimir was the 4th fastest relay split of all time behind Lamberti (1:45.53), Biondi (1:46.44) and Holmertz. He also won the bronze medal in 1994 in the 100 Free at the Goodwill games when Alexender (Russian Rocket) Popov won gold. He was also on the 1996 Silver 400 Free Relay and had to swim against Gary Hall when he went the fastest relay split of all time to that point. The Rocket swam second on that relay.

So, may I ask, how did you recruit this foreign swimmer or maybe he is not because he probably got his green card. Was this something that Team TYR did through there connections. This guy used to work out with Popov and in fact I believe his coach was one of the great swim coaches of our time Gennadi Touretski. In fact this guy is real good friends with Popov and boy that would have been something if you could have gotten him to join the team even though he is a true Arena product man.

There was another Russian that swam masters and was All American in 1993 and his name was Sergey Mariniuk and he was friends with Vladimir and Popov as well. He was is the book "Gold in the Water" and was still training in 2000 and trying to make the Olympic team. I wonder if he is still swimming.

Which beings me to the question, is he going to swim in Rowdy's place on the relay or is Rich Sager. You don't have to tell us if you don't want to. If any of you know this guy on your team I would like to meet him if I could. I know he is only signed up for the 100 Free (:52.64) and the 200 Free (1:56.32) and he will be racing some world class talent like Josh Davis but I believe they are in different age groups. Anyways I look forward to seeing this relay of who ever it is smash the World Record. Because of how John feels about foreign swimmers, Cruise is going to have a field day with this. Also its to bad that Greg didn't ask his sister Kim from Team Rhodenbaugh to swim in the meet and then you would have had the complete USA Women's team in the 200 Meter Breast from the 1984 Olympics on Team TYR.

I did a little research and found some news on Vladimir and I will not comment on it because I don't want to or know how to comment on it and I will provide a link here. I know that he was coaching High School and Club team somewhere near Northbrook, Illinois but that was a while ago.

http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?id=424

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/120497/spo_overtime.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/examiner/article.cgi?year=1996&month=07&day=24&article=SPORTS2632.dtl

fatboy
July 14th, 2006, 12:10 PM
I was among those that saw Vlad swim at the ILMSA meet in April. He posted some impressive times there


Men 35-39 100 Yard Free
35-39 ILMSA: 47.12 I 1998 THOMAS J. REDIG
1 Pyshnenko, Vlad 36UN-IL 45.32I
22.06 45.32

Men 35-39 200 Yard Free
35-39 ILMSA: 1:44.15 I 2005 Matt Keller
1 Pyshnenko, Vlad 36UN-IL 1:40.00I
23.41 48.45 1:13.98 1:40.00

Frank Thompson
July 14th, 2006, 12:20 PM
Fatboy:

Thanks. So this must of been Vlad first year swimming masters because I could not find him in the National Top Ten data base. Interesting that he swam UN-IL at your State Championships in April. The times are very impressive as you would expect from a caliber swimmer of his background. Again, I wonder how TYR found out about this swimmer?

jpheather
July 14th, 2006, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
So, may I ask, how did you recruit this foreign swimmer or maybe he is not because he probably got his green card.

USMS does not have any requirement that members be citizens, or even residents. We don't ask for citizenship status on our applications (good thing, it's hard enough getting folks to fess up to their correct birthdate).

Too bad I'm not going to see any of those fast relays at Worlds.

Paul Smith
July 14th, 2006, 12:33 PM
Frank,
Sadly Vlad will not be on any relays, he's a coach in Chicago and has to leav worlds to be in attendence at JO's. He actually would not have been on our relay as we tried to keep the old farts over 40) together (originally it was Grg, John, Rich * I).....right now all relays are up in the air pending the swims people put in prior to the relay dealine (Monday)......not sure if I'll even make the "A" relay!

As for Rowdy, he's now swimming for Gold Coast (actually since May nationals)......Dara had a bit more cloat than John & I in signing him up! He did however lead off our relay in Indy that you asked about with a 21.3.....which would have been the national record but we screwed up the order on the entry card (I was 2nd, Bert 3rd & JS anchored).

dorothyrde
July 14th, 2006, 01:14 PM
Jo's in Illinois ends July 30,I think you need to convince him to go!

Unless it is Zones he needs to go to, then that is in August.

Frank Thompson
July 14th, 2006, 01:15 PM
Thanks Paul. Then I did remember that right. Just a warning. Be carefull of stuff like that on your relays. If that would have been a FINA meet they would have DQ you for going in the wrong order. Also, watch were you sit in the marshalling chairs in the area. A friend of mine sat in the second chair, which was the breaststroke chair and they made her swim breast and the person sitting in the first chair swim the back in the medley and its recked there relay in Montreal. I think in your case they would have stopped the relay because they would have seen Rowdy and seen his credentials and that would not have matched the relay card and so in a FINA meet he would have swam correctly and gotten the record.

I know this year Rowdy did a relay with Dara and went :21.3 but I don't know if it was the leadoff or not. I was hoping to see Rowdy and you swim against each other in the 50 Free at Coral Springs but he had to get back Colorado. He is always a welcome presence when he comes to our meets regardless of what team he swims for. When I won the Toyota Olympic trivia contest at the Swim Clinic in Coral Springs I received a book that I already had and wanted to give it to him but he did not want it and wanted to give it to the second place finisher.

So Paul, you guys have to do what they do in the Olympics and people have to prove there worth to be selected on the A relays. That is good because you don't want any controversys like the Men's 400 Free Relay or the Women's 800 Free Relay at Athens. So that will put more pressure on all of the TYR swimmers to earn there keep on the relays.

Julie, I know the rule I was just giving Mr. Goodsmith the business because I know how he feels about those foreign swimmers swimming at the NCAA's. I was just trying to see if he had a change of heart when it comes to the FINA World Masters Swimming Championships.

Peter Cruise
July 14th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Frank- I would not give John a hard time about Vlad 'cause it is a totally different issue, in fact, a non-issue.

I think that we should all cut John a little slack, as things will be difficult enough when he finds that he has been assigned a special marshall to ensure that he makes it to his correct heat at Worlds.

Frank Thompson
July 14th, 2006, 02:28 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Cruise
[B]Frank- I would not give John a hard time about Vlad 'cause it is a totally different issue, in fact, a non-issue.

Peter:

Agreed. What I really wanted to know is how they found this guy to swim for Team TYR? I know that all of the past swimmers have competed against each other in college and at USMS Nationals. What I wanted to know is that this is the first time I have ever heard of him swimming in Masters in that Illinois State Championship which was less than 3 months ago.

Did one of the swimmers know him from international meets? Like I don't have a problem with connection with old friends, enjoying masters swimming, and trying to create a fast relay. I am wondering if they swam against him in the old days and created a friendship. That is all.

Peter Cruise
July 14th, 2006, 03:06 PM
Frank- Paul & John were originally going to swim for Team Victoria's Secret, but that fell through when they couldn't get a team negligee in Paul's size. Perhaps they met through that connection?

Sam Perry
July 14th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
Frank- Paul & John were originally going to swim for Team Victoria's Secret, but that fell through when they couldn't get a team negligee in Paul's size. Perhaps they met through that connection?

Maybe Amanda Beard could join that team. Wait that's another thread, sorry!

jim clemmons
July 14th, 2006, 04:48 PM
Maybe Amanda Beard could join that team

Yep - she'd "fit" on that team just fine.

swimgold92
July 14th, 2006, 07:19 PM
Frank,

Thanks for posting all pertinent information about my life. You missed a couple things, I take a 50 long jacket and wear size 13 shoes. I would like to clear up a couple of things. 1st, the whole TYR situation. I am currently the Sr. Coach at a club (Northbrook Spartan Swim Club) with 300+ swimmers and for the past year we have been a TYR contracted club. Although I am swimming for Team TYR I will not be on any relays, I have swimmers at the Jr. Nationals and have to be there. I swam the IL masters Unattached because that is how I originally registered. I knew well before then that I was going to swim Team TYR. Even though I hadn't swum masters meets, I had been competing in USA Swimming meets. When our club signed the TYR contract, Matt Zimmer put me in touch with the guys from Team TYR. I wasn't recruited, I contacted them. I also have had my green card for 5 years. This November I (along with my wife Natalia Mechtcheriakova) am applying for US citizenship. We are excited to join our daughter (who was born here) as American citizens. That brings me to my second point. I came to the US 7 years ago, because of the lack of support from the All - Russian Swimming Federation. You posted some links to stories about positive drug tests (thank god for Google!). Unfortunately there is nothing about my appeal to FINA that reduced my suspension from 4 to 2 years, because it was proven that none of us knowingly took any drugs. I just want to set the record straight. As far as being an "Arena man", that wasn't by choice. Our team was sponsored by Arena, we could not get individual contracts(except for Alex) to suppliers. Since I've been in the US I have used Speedo, TYR, NIKE, Arena, etc.,. I'm looking forward to Worlds and hope everybody swims fast and has fun!

Vlad

TheGoodSmith
July 14th, 2006, 07:51 PM
Frank,

Do we really need to review my opposition to foriegn athletes taking collegiate scholarship money away from US citizens again? Look, if masters had the seriousness element to it that NCAA and USS swimming has (which it doesn't) I'd still support Vlad's swimming efforts in the US on any level as he is genuinely making the US his home...... i.e. a LEGAL residence toward eventual citizenship and further more he is coaching US swimmers and giving his skills to the sport for this country.

Still think this thread is much a do about nothing. Although I do regret not having thought of it first. This thread is going to be one of the top 2 most controversial threads of the year. I have my work cut out for me to find a topic that is more argumentative for the coveted "Most controversial thread" trophy.


John Smith

PS- I used to be known as the most irritating person in masters swimming. I think I prefer "Team Whore" now.

swimgold92
July 14th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Frank,
I'd still support Vlad's swimming efforts in the US on any level as he is genuinely making the US his home...... i.e. a LEGAL residence toward eventual citizenship and further more he is coaching US swimmers and giving his skills to the sport for this country.

John Smith


Thank you John !!!
But I still have couple Russian swimmers on my team :D

Frank Thompson
July 15th, 2006, 10:36 AM
Vladimir:

Thanks for the followup. If you go to one of the posts in this thread I asked if Team TYR was involved in the set up that you answer so thoroughly. As a Coach and a Master Swimmer myself I have heard of the arrangement that you are talking about and I posted this question and got an answer that "The folks at TYR have been great and we have gotten some awesome gear" and that is about all the explanation that I got. I was under the impression that Rich Saeger set this up for everyone as a neutral club and that everyone knows everyone and that were are connecting with old friends, enjoying masters swimming, and trying to create a fast relay. Everyone at the meet will have a good time. There was never an explanation of the arrangement that you explained and I had heard about that arrangement and think that its perfectly above board and support it in todays professional market. I said in my question to them that this concept has been going on in swimming and maybe its going to be explored into the masters market. Again, there was no answer from the people that I posted the question and if there was I probably would have not bothered to research more. So you, as one of the fastest swimmers in the world show up on there roster like this and it was not explained at all.

When I saw your name on the roster I remembered when you swam and have several videos that I have in my archive of you at the Olympics, World Championships, and Goodwill Games. I did a search on the USMS website and there was no activity of you swimming in USMS. I went to the current top times sight and didn't see a mention of your name and until fatboy came on here to tell us about your masters swimming, I did not know about it. I did do a google search and thats what came up. If you notice I never said anything about those articles and they are there as a matter of public record. In fact, that is how I found out about your coaching in Illinois.

There was an article in Swimming World many years ago about the state of Russian swimming. In that article and in fact its documented in the book "Gold in the Water" they talked about Russians swimmers coming over here and leaving Russia. In fact they said that Sergei Mariniuk did that before he attained is green card. That is the only reason why I brought that up and that as nothing to do with you.

Sometimes on this website its hard to know when someone is joking and when someone is serious. I am being serioius now and I think its great you are here and I hope that you have great success in all your endevors in coaching and swimming regardless of who you are swimming for.

As for John Smith, he has stated that he wants to be the most controversial and irritating person in masters swimming. I sometimes feel I am helping him do this by disagreeing with him so much that I am going to win the title away from him as the most irritating and contoversial swimmer here and that is a title I do not want. The foreign swimmers thread is where everyone disagrees the most and that is why I brought it up in a humorlessly fashion and not seriously which I probably shouldn't have done.

Also to the Smiths. In case you didn't know it, it was ME that brought up your concerns about the athlete representation at the World Championships in the International meeting at the USAS convention and changing the current method to a National Delegation entry. I was told at the meeting that bringing this up now was like charging a brick wall. I had said last year on the Recruiting thread that if these changes happened the controversy would go away. Both of you said that you would work with Mark Gill to get something on the table for our FINA rep to take to the meeting in China. I don't believe that ever happened and until it does happen then we are going to have this endless debate for a long time. I do agree with both of your assessments that this is a World Swimming Festival compared to the World Championships that Swimming has.

In closing Vladimir, I am sorry if I offended you in any way. That was not my intention at all. Over here especially with what happened to Kicker Vencil, people have become suspect of articles like that. And I am sorry to the Smith's if I offended them because of this confusion. I still don't agree with what you are doing on this type of arrangement and its perfectly legal by all of the masters rules of swimming. I don't agree with this because I don't feel its in line with the core objectives of building, serving, and educating the USMS membership. With that being said good luck getting as many World Records as you can.

swimgold92
July 15th, 2006, 11:28 AM
Thank you Frank!
You didn't offended me in any way!!! No worries :D

Sergei Mariniuk is not going to compete at Worlds...he is running "computer" show at Sr. and Jr. Nationals (Irvine).

P.S. You've mention something about videos...Is it possible to get a copy?

Frank Thompson
July 15th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by swimgold92
Thank you Frank!
You didn't offended me in any way!!! No worries :D

Sergei Mariniuk is not going to compete at Worlds...he is running "computer" show at Sr. and Jr. Nationals (Irvine).

P.S. You've mention something about videos...Is it possible to get a copy?

Great and thanks. And yes I will get you a copy and try to get it done before the I leave for Stanford. You will move first to the line. I have some swim footage of some other masters swimmers such as Mike Ross (Lets Race) and Jeff Commings that I plan to make for them sometime in the future.

swimgold92
July 15th, 2006, 12:26 PM
Frank,
Thank's again!!!

Thanks for bringing up those names :D
Do you know if Mike Ross trying to get Rich's WR?

Frank Thompson
July 15th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Vladimir:

Michael's seed time is 1:56 and I think Rich's record is 1:54.38 so he probably has a chance. I see that you and him are seeded 1st and 2nd in the 100 Free in the 35-39 age group and that looks like it will be an exciting race. Michael goes by Let Race on these forums and maybe he can come on here and tell us how his training is going. I have a video of him swimming a 50 Back in the 200 Medley Relay, swimming it completely underwater at the 1989 NCAA Championships. Back in those days there was no rule for getting to the surface at 15 meters. His team, the Princeton Tigers of the Ivy League won that relay 2 years in a row. I will provide a link of a discussion about him on this forum and as you can see we talk about everything here.

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5963

swimgold92
July 15th, 2006, 05:05 PM
Frank,
200 Free WR for 35-39 age group-1:54.86
100 is "lil" harder - 51.49 by Rowdy :D
Olympic Trials cut for US - 51.59

Would be really interesting!

Peter Cruise
July 15th, 2006, 05:23 PM
Hey Vlad, welcome to the forums. I was wondering about a swimmer (in a different thread) whose seed time at worlds for 200im 35-39 is a very fast 1:58.16 by name of Rustem Salikhov. Have you heard of him & if so, is the time for real? Just curious.

swimgold92
July 15th, 2006, 05:31 PM
Thank's Peter!
Nope...
Never heard that name, but 1:58 are fast time, for any ages...WOW!

Mswimming
July 15th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Vlad, your TYR team mate Rich Saeger just swam a 1:57 to lead off a world record (160+) 800 LCM free relay. He went out in a 58.X. He was by far the fastest leg of the relay that went 8:15. He swims at our pool on the weekends and is just amazing to watch. Really nice guy, too. I can't wait to see what all of team tyr does for worlds. Its inspiring to see what some folks can do as they get older.

Kevin

knelson
July 15th, 2006, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
Hey Vlad, welcome to the forums. I was wondering about a swimmer (in a different thread) whose seed time at worlds for 200im 35-39 is a very fast 1:58.16 by name of Rustem Salikhov. Have you heard of him & if so, is the time for real? Just curious.

That time would tie him with Jani Sievinen as the fourth fastest performer of all time. So the time is either bogus (maybe a short course time) or Jani changed his name :)

swimgold92
July 15th, 2006, 10:22 PM
58--59...Nice split Rich!!!
And this is before taper.
I only can dream about one second difference between first and second 100's.
About 200IM...I think it's yard time.

Peter Cruise
July 16th, 2006, 01:54 PM
Perhaps he has been training on Mars, the ultimate in high-altitude prep. I'm sure the trusty announcer will point out that he has seeded 4th fastest all time...

NotVeryFast
July 16th, 2006, 05:00 PM
For interest, this is how it works in the UK.

You can be a member of as many clubs as you want at the same time, there's no need to jump from one club to the other.

So called "conglomerates" are common here, and exist on different levels. There are people in the armed forces who may train with a local club, but then swim for the Royal Navy, say, in competitions, to have a larger pool of swimmers. At the Worlds, they are swimming as British Armed Forces, to up the numbers even more, combining Royal Navy, Royal Air Force etc.

Another example is Spencer. Spencer is a real club, with training sessions, but they have a lot of members who don't train at any of the club's sessions, and many will train with a local club as well as competing for Spencer at competitions. Spencer was the top scoring club at the GB Masters Championships this year.

Then there are some "clubs" that aren't real clubs, such as Hadrian Masters. There are no Hadrian Masters training sessions, it's a club that exists only to bring swimmers together from other clubs at competitions.

One thing that limits this at the GB Masters is that each club can only enter one team in each age group per relay event, so there is a limit to how many people can join the same club to be in a competitive relay team.

Some people in the UK get upset about conglomerates, most people don't seem to care. As has been articulated already in this thread, the people who get most upset seem to be those who belong to clubs with a large local membership and would have a chance of relay gold if it weren't for the conglomerates.

However, I do feel that it puts swimmers from some countries at a disadvantage if their national rules mean that they can't get together for relays for Worlds in the way that swimmers from other countries can.

letsrace
July 17th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Skip, since you asked, I have been training well. I would not have said so on Friday of last week, but I had a good meet this past weekend at the Bay State Games here in MA. I now recognize that I complain more than anyone I know.

Vlad, I am glad to get the chance to say "nice job" on your 100 free this past season. I only got about 1 day worth of being too big for my britches before a friend sent me the link to your swim. Congratulations on getting the USMS record.

I look forward to meeting you at Worlds. It will be fun to race.

Frank Thompson
July 17th, 2006, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
Hey Vlad, welcome to the forums. I was wondering about a swimmer (in a different thread) whose seed time at worlds for 200im 35-39 is a very fast 1:58.16 by name of Rustem Salikhov. Have you heard of him & if so, is the time for real? Just curious.

Peter:

I did a google search on this guy and this is what I found. I should probably stop doing this and learn my lesson. But then again if Rusteem sees this he can come on here and join and then he can tell us how he got those incredible seed times especially the 200 IM.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kiev88/message/502

Peter Cruise
July 17th, 2006, 03:37 PM
Frank- I think we should 'focus' on this guy really 'close-up' through a sharp 'lens'; it should be a 'snap', perhaps the answer will 'develop' in a 'flash' to the question I 'posed'...perhaps I should 'f-stop' now?

swimgold92
July 17th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Vlad, I am glad to get the chance to say "nice job" on your 100 free this past season. I only got about 1 day worth of being too big for my britches before a friend sent me the link to your swim. Congratulations on getting the USMS record.

I look forward to meeting you at Worlds. It will be fun to race.

Thanks Mike!!!
Sorry that was just one day...
We should blame everything on IL Masters Swimming:D

You said, that you swim well last weekend...tell us more!

Will be interesting to meet everyone from discussion forums :D

letsrace
July 18th, 2006, 12:59 PM
Vlad, I did a 57.8 in the 100 fly, a 24.48 in the 50 free and a 52.89 in the 100 free. I was very happy with those times.

Now, back to the controversy...

swimgold92
July 18th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Mike,
Great swims!
Too bad you are not in our team :D
With 57.8 on Fly...you should be 49 high on 100 Free...

letsrace
July 19th, 2006, 07:29 AM
You all heard it! Vlad is trying to recruit swimmers!

:D

Vlad, if you will tell me how to go under 50 in the 100 free, I am your humble student. I wouldn't mind learning how to go 1:46 in the 200 free, too, but I will take it one stroke at a time.

swimgold92
July 19th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Mike,
I wish I still know how to go 1:46 in meters...
I only go 1:46 in yards this days :D

onlyfree
July 20th, 2006, 10:32 AM
Hey Vlad, leave Mike alone! He's already on OUR team and OUR relays are needier. And we love Mike.

swimgold92
July 20th, 2006, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by onlyfree
Hey Vlad, leave Mike alone! He's already on OUR team and OUR relays are needier. And we love Mike.

Hey guys...
I'm not recruiting anybody :D
I'm just impressed with his times...ESPESIALLY with Fly times :D

CreamPuff
July 20th, 2006, 03:23 PM
I see no problem with it.

I had no idea we as masters swimmers were supposed to be committed to one particular team or LSC. Really? Shouldn't my LSC (Georgia) be pitching that to me?
I swim with lots of different teams and really enjoy mixing up my practices and seeing if I can succeed in different swim environments - it stays totally challenging and it keeps me swimming day in and day out. . .

As a kid, I remember all the slower "have nots" swimmers and parents of the "have nots" always whining and complaining about the "haves" or the swimmers who were the most talented and dedicated and setting the records.
I actually had a team mom remove some of my records and replace them with slower team swims for flimsy, made up reasons like, "the team is now called the sharks" even though the team was the same. Learn to deal with fast swimmers people! If you are slower, then either work harder or admit you are slower! To me this sounds like people crying because others are too fast - how unfair!

I see no problem with four people taking initiative and getting together to break records.

Take this thinking one step further and we may as well not even have compeititons for fear of hurting others' feelings.

Frank Thompson
July 20th, 2006, 04:32 PM
Swm4Life:

I think you missed the point entirely. This is not about haves and have nots. This is about a FINA World Championship were the rules say that you compete as Clubs and not as a Nation. Because of the nature of masters swimming, the organization, rules, clubs, coaches, swimmers, and workout schedules we have a lot more leeway when we swim in competitions compared to other swimming organizations such as USA Swimming, High School Swimming, and NCAA Swimming. This practice could never go on because of the structure, rules, coaches, clubs and swimmers in these organizations. I challenge you to name me one organization be it USA club, HS, or NCAA where this happens. You know what, you can't. Why, because the rules that govern these organizations club, schools, coaches, and swimmers would never allow it.

In these type of organizations you could never develop talent in a team environment and a coach would have a hard time building a succesful team of swimmers committed to achieving goals. The only situation that this takes place is when USA Swimming builds a National team with the express purpose of getting the fastest persons on the team to represent this country as a National Delegation and the coaches are in charge to pick relays based on the talent of the National team entry. The swimmers are picked based on the critera that is set by the organization. Usually a trials meet takes place and the National team is set. Relays are always not straight forward and the coaches set there own critera to pick those relays. This is the only instance besides what is done is now in USMS that I ever heard of a policy of forming a national team based on the fastest swimmers with the fastest times.

It has been mentioned that some in Masters swimming would like to go to a National Federation format and this policy would be ok if every FINA member delegation agreed to it and it was accepted by FINA. Right now if other nations follow the FINA policy and operate and swim relays as Clubs, they are not on a level playing field with the clubs that do not do this.

Many years ago I was asked to name one nation or governing body that practiced what some clubs were doing here in the USA. I couldn't name one and if someone can name one outside of the USA at this championship I would be interested in hearing what Club/Nation that is.

Until the rule is changed, there will always be a controversy and the teams that do it are perfectly legal to do it as long as they meet the national guidelines for timing to get all of the people to join the club in time. Even people that do this admit that its kind of like team whoring. Except in this case, I really believe the team is not doing it for financial incentives like a whore or pimp but to establish a world standard in the relays and be proud Americans doing it. I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as the FINA changed the rules and recognized this as they do in Swimming and other nations could do the same thing and be proud of there accomlishements and be playing on a level playing field.

bbpolhill
July 20th, 2006, 04:52 PM
Well said, Frank.

Any way you look at it, it seems to be a tricky situation. It would be difficult to ever make it a true World Championship unless National teams could be assembled and travel for its members funded through National organizations.

Then the question would become...what do you about all the "have nots" that comprise 90% of Masters Swimming but are unable to participate on a nationally funded team? Should they represent their country or their club? be excluded?

I would like to see some of the world swimming veterans propose some idealistic solutions on this thread, making the assumption that the governing bodies would all agree to the proposal. (a big leap - I admit).

Sincerely,

A Never Had

Mel
July 20th, 2006, 04:55 PM
I started this thread and I could not have said it better. Thanks Frank and hopefully we will have all these "super whores" on our USMS International Committee to help change the rules...but until then you said it best.

Rich Abrahams
July 20th, 2006, 05:15 PM
I like the rules just the way they are. It enabled me to swim on a relay last summer with my son, which was a highpoint of my masters' experience to date. Without the current rules, that would not have been possible.

Also, I thought someone contributed to this thread from Great Britain and discussed their conglomerate teams. The USA is not the only country that allows this freedom.

Rich

Peter Cruise
July 20th, 2006, 06:08 PM
This thread is like deja vu all over again. I admit, back in '88 in Australia for Worlds, I was quite put off by the super-team that Frank has alluded to previously. Ironically, that was back when I was consistently world top 10 level in several events, while now you would need a telescope to spot me, I feel live and let live. Certainly we can all agree that none of this is outside the current rules and if dissatisfied can lobby for change. I personally would find it a gas to see Rich swim with his son, as I would also enjoy seeing the Geek swimming with a big, ugly catfish (not a blood relative, but a close resemblance).

By the way, I nominate Frank, Matt, Lindsay & Mel as an elite forum strike-force to initiate a 'smother the fire' strategy the next time we have one of our occasional Ionic eruptions.

Frank Thompson
July 20th, 2006, 06:29 PM
Rich:

I see nothing wrong with swimming with your son and I think its great that you had the opportunity to do that. And yes that is one positive that are rules allow and I know of many instances of this being done and no one having a problem with it. I will admit that I never heard of the Conglomerate situation in Britan except I have heard of teams in the armed forces forming for championships to compete as a team. I have heard of a cottage system for teams in Britan where there is a main local club that works as a home base and they have other smaller clubs join them in competitions because they work out on there own and have no coaches and don't really have an organzied club like the large clubs or conglomerates as some have called.

As a I mentioned last year in the Recruiting thread all of this controversy came as a result of what happened in 1988 with the forming of Holmes Lumber Jax. That was the first National team that I can remember and it was not looked at favorably to the rest of the other FINA Nations that competed at the World Championships. People had there own reasons for joining and it was perfectly legal like it is today. I know you were a member of that team and you are part of a relay record from 1990 that is still on the books. At one time, Holmes pretty much dominated masters swimming as a Club at both Nationals and World Championships. They had the best team they could assemble based on the incentives that they provided to the swimmers.

To me and to the others this seemed that we were building a National Team and dominating the World Championships on an uneven playing field. The reason is because other teams were not permitted to do this and were discouraged to do this by there National Federations. Rules like swimming Unattached for a year before switching clubs and then swimming Unattached for another year when wanting to switch again really discouraged this practice. Also with USMS being the largest delegation with swimmers and most organized with meets, coaches, and clubs we have a huge advantage to field teams stronger than anyone.

If you recruit the best swimmers in the nation and form a team and relays based on those swimmers, no other FINA nation is going to have a chance at competiting on a level playing field. Thats a major point that other delegations have because even if they wanted to do what we do, they can't so there forced to compete on an unlevel playing field. This alone will always cause a controversy.

Another point is what happens to the LMSC or Club that is left behind in the process. They are forced to have to do the same practice and recruit from other Clubs and LMSC's or field slower relays because all of the faster swimmers left for superior clubs and relays. Is this really what Masters swimming is all about? This to me sounds like free agency when National or World Championships are going on. There is no sense of belonging and representing something and I will just go my own way as an individual.

Rich, you are on a great LMSC team and you guys won the 2005 USMS SCN Championships in Fort Lauderdale and many of the swimmers set National Records. Isn't that enough. Why would some leave a team like yours to go to another after building the comradely and spirt of your group as a team. I applude you for sticking with your team but in the process when you lose great talent you have to aquire great talent to replace what is lost and that seems to be what is going on judging from your roster.

Rich, you are a great swimmer in your own right and will probably always be unless some unforseen thing happens like an injury or something. All great swimmers would want to swim with you and the only way everyone in the World would except it is if we could get FINA to change that rule. There would probably be a lot of obstacles to go about doing it but if it is not tried there is always going to be controversy regarding this.

Its a slow show
July 20th, 2006, 06:45 PM
Rich- I think you ought put "the shoe on the other foot"! How would you like to lose relay records to recruited super teams???
I don't think you would like it??? If that becomes the challenge then I will go head to head with you anytime.

Rich Abrahams
July 20th, 2006, 07:13 PM
There is a 100% chance that 2 of my relay records will be broken at Worlds by a "super team". My attitude is that it's about time these records get wiped off the books.

I know you may find this hard to believe, but I care about how I perform based on my own goals, not about records. In one of my most disapointing masters meets ever I set 3 world records but did not swim as well as I had hoped and expected based on my training. These meets should be about hanging out with your friends, making new ones and swimming as well as your potential allows. Records, top 10, etc. are secondary considerations.

What is the "head to head" challenge all about? It is a very strange comment from someone who won't use his real name.

Rich

jim clemmons
July 20th, 2006, 07:29 PM
What is the "head to head" challenge all about? It is a very strange comment from someone who won't use his real name.

Yeah, it's like: C'mon let's fight after school - if I'm not there, start without me!

H'mmm, would that be a false start?

swimr4life
July 20th, 2006, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Rich Abrahams
[B I know you may find this hard to believe, but I care about how I perform based on my own goals, not about records. In one of my most disapointing masters meets ever I set 3 world records but did not swim as well as I had hoped and expected based on my training. These meets should be about hanging out with your friends, making new ones and swimming as well as your potential allows. Records, top 10, etc. are secondary considerations.

Rich [/B]

Rich, I met you on the bus at Phoenix Nationals. I was in awe of you then and I like you even more after reading your reply! You are truly an inspiration to all us Masters swimmers not only because of your dedication to personal excellence but also because you never forget what Masters is truly about!

You da man! :D

A.K.
July 20th, 2006, 10:39 PM
Why doesn't the rest or World's Master Swimmers have the same rules as the USMS?

Why haven't they been changed to match USMS?

Why haven't USMS rules been changed to match the other FINA Master rules?

If we are all following the rules.... what's the problem?

If you don't like it, change it. Either side.

I would very much like this International World meet to be played on an even field with all teams under the same rules and each Nation being able to build their best relays/teams for this World event. It can only help our exposure to Masters Swimming.

Don't you want the best against the best?

We have the club meet rivalry for National competition. It's fun and can be very competitive.

Why can't we try it all? Club competition for Local and National meets and National competition for the World and International meets.

Let the Games Begin.

swimr4life
July 20th, 2006, 10:40 PM
Whoa....I haven't posted in a long time. I just went back and read the previous posts and saw "swim4life". We are 2 different people....ironically both from Ga.! I promise... its not me!

kokkole
July 21st, 2006, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by A.K.
Why doesn't the rest or World's Master Swimmers have the same rules as the USMS?

Why haven't they been changed to match USMS?

Why haven't USMS rules been changed to match the other FINA Master rules?

I'm from Italy.

Here, you can only swim for one team in one season.

Sometimes, it's VERY DIFFICULT (if you're a good swimmer) to be "released" from your team of origin if you want to switch to another team between seasons, whatever the reason.

I'm all for elite relay teams. There will be an elite relay team from Italy in the 120 age group. They have been swimming together on the same team for years.

I think it would be fantastic to be able to represent your own country, instead of your team...

but that's just my 2 euros!! :cool:

PS: I want to compliment Vlad on his written English - perfect! WOW!!

NotVeryFast
July 21st, 2006, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
I will admit that I never heard of the Conglomerate situation in Britan except I have heard of teams in the armed forces forming for championships to compete as a team.
It's rife in GB, and it's certainly not confined to USMS and GB either, e.g. in this thread on the UK swimclub forum:
http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4711

When I was at the European Masters in Millau I swam for a Barnet Copthall men’s medley relay team, all of whom trained with the club. i.e. We were a completely legit club team. Six months earlier the very same team had touched out the GB Police team to win the national championships and set a new British record. In Millau the same four relay swimmers were comprehensively destroyed by teams including ‘Hellas Masters’ (who were basically a combined Swedish team) and ‘Dynamo Kiev’ (who were the former Ukrainian Olympic team).
So we can add Sweden and Ukraine to the list of nations that don't seem to have an issue with composite teams / conglomerates.

CreamPuff
July 21st, 2006, 11:31 AM
I can vouch for Beth McGee. It's not her.
Beth, this is Kristina, one of the gals you swim with on occasion at SAMS. I've missed swimming with you this summer!

I did not realize that your id was so close to what I chose. :) I'll see if I can change it to something a little less similar! Did not mean to embarass you with my post! Please do allow me to take the heat.

Anyway, I'm glad the FINA rules are the way they are. I always want to swim against the fastest swimmer or swimmers in relays.

I did not know that USS, High School, and NCAA were comparable to eachother much less USMS. USMS is certainly it's own separate body with completely different goals promoting the sport of swimming for it's healthy benefits along with building relationships among other swimmers regardless of where they may live. I learn something new every day and did not know relationship building was limited to your geographical location.

Why do you think top age group teams travel across the country (or even outside of it) to join other teams different from themselves in trainings? To get more experiences and benefit from different ideas and training techinques. I can't tell you how many times I've been told one thing by one coach and the complete opposite by another coach - and that's within the same "club." The weath of info we now have is massive compared to what it was in the 70s when I grew up. This issues makes me think of Walmart going overseas to keep prices as low as possible. Why not go outside your state line for the fastest team? It's a global economy and like it or not, we no longer operate in a bubble.

Who is to say that swimmers jump ship b/c of their egos? First, so what if that's the case? Clubs have egos too and are not perfect beyond reproach. Not every swimmer has a wonderful "club" experience. I've personally had mixed experiences at different clubs and am happy to have a pool to swim in.

Second, there could be many reasons as to why the swimmer jumps ship other than individual ego. It's not as if we've signed a contract with a "club" and are paid by them to swim for the team. We pay the club!

Third, it's fun to win. Winning does not happen by chance. When I was on high school, you are right, I was stuck with the team we had and I had to carry the three other slow swimmers. How do you think the fastest swimmer feels? I sure as heck would dare not say! (I will now 'cause it's been many years.)

Shouldn't masters have a lot more "leeway" anyway?
If not and we're going to be all tied down in crazy rules, then we really need to implement doping/ random drug testing which would be great b/c then I'm pretty sure I'd eliminate half my competition!

I still say it's a case of have or have nots, but if you prefer, "wahhh" vs. fast.

Always working on not being "wahhh,"
:p

swimgold92
July 21st, 2006, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by kokkole
PS: I want to compliment Vlad on his written English - perfect! WOW!!

Thank you kokkole...
I'm putting your username in my buddy list :D

kokkole
July 22nd, 2006, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by swimgold92
Thank you kokkole...
I'm putting your username in my buddy list :D

I am honored!!

TheGoodSmith
July 24th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Frank,

The relay pyche sheet is out. Take a look at it. It appears Italy has a similar approach to these national team relays. They are seated ahead of Team TYR despite our "whoring" efforts.

Hmmmmmmmmmm........... could some other country be trying to assemble the fastest relay possible at Masters World Championships?

How awful ........... :-)




John Smith

kokkole
July 24th, 2006, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Frank,

The relay pyche sheet is out. Take a look at it. It appears Italy has a similar approach to these national team relays. They are seated ahead of Team TYR despite our "whoring" efforts.

Hmmmmmmmmmm........... could some other country be trying to assemble the fastest relay possible at Masters World Championships?

How awful ........... :-)




John Smith

Thanks for the tip on the relay psyche sheet.

This Italian relay:

160-199
1 DDS "A" DDS Milano 1:47.09
1) Giuseppe, Tiano M38
2) Agostinone, Andrea M37
3) Machesi, Fabio M43
4) Savino, Metello M43

has been together for YEARS (at least 3). They swim on the same team, which is called DDS. They are NOT an elite team which has been put together for the worlds.

By the way:
Giuseppe Tiano (back) got his bachelor degree at UCLA, and swam on the Bruins team with Tom Jager as a team mate.
Metello Savino (free) was at the 1984 Olympics in LA.
It's going to be a great relay. I think they're already in LA warming up, or tapering (and shaving) down, rather....

As I already wrote in this topic, in Italy it is NOT allowed to change teams mid-season. Therefore, I can safely say that it is NOT true that "Italy has a similar approach to these national team relays."

I sort of wish we did - then we could put Marco Colombo on the team!!!


:D

Peter Cruise
July 24th, 2006, 05:01 PM
Well, I guess that will shut John up....naww

kokkole
July 24th, 2006, 05:23 PM
sorry if I sound like a lawyer or something - I just think it's funner to play when you know the rules, and you've got your facts straight.

If y'all want I'll put in a link to the Italian Swimming Federation Masters rules on relays... here you go:

!FIN Rules for Masters Relay Teams (http://www.federnuoto.it/pdf/reg_masters_05_06.pdf)

I translate:
"Article 5 - Relays
Relays must be made up of 4 athletes from the same team.
No athlete may swim for more than one team."

The rules also specify that from 1 October 2005 through 30 September 2006 you can be a member of only one team.

By the way, the DDS team (from Milan) are REALLY nice and fun people. They put on a good show...

Say "CIAO!" when you see them

Frank Thompson
July 25th, 2006, 07:53 PM
Mr Goodsmith:

I see that Kokkole did an Italian Job on your analysis of the relays. I think at this point to try to speculate who is doing this is pointless. I hope that we find other teams doing it because it will be ammunition for FINA to change the Masters MGR 3 rule to FINA General Swimming Rules GR1 and GR2. And as Paul said are we really sure everyone is pure as regard to relays and combined teams? I think the biggest difference now compared to 1988, is that masters swimming is bigger around the world then it was back then and I think there has been a change in attitudes regarding this. One of the main points of controversy back then was the financial incentives and how that was a lure to swimmers to form a team. Remember, back then swimming was not a professional sport and no one made any money off the sport that was still competiting. Today its very different with sponsors and all. I know that Team TYR did not use financial incentives and that is a big difference than what happened in 1988.

I believe something has to be explored to try to change this rule. An example would be to take a survey of the competiting nations swimmers at the World Championships and see what they think of a National Delegation entry. If there is an interest, then it should go from there. The main point of this change is, will it affect participation of the swimming population that attends the World Championship? Will it be looked at as to competitive and not in the interests of the majority of swimmers? If these areas are not adversly effected with the change then I can see a chance for this change.

There is a lot of work to do and this my not happen overnight. But if this did ever happen we would not have the controversy we have had since 1988.

LindsayNB
July 25th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Frank,

I have noticed in previous discussions here about various types of super teams at Nationals and in discussions in Canada as well that people tend to favor a setup in which "their side" is most likely to win. The big clubs that are most likely to win at Nationals if everyone else also competes on a club basis are the ones that get upset about smaller teams banding together into state teams etc. People from smaller clubs are the most likely to support being able to join up with a larger team. I wonder if the United States would benefit more from a National team approach than most countries due to its larger size? Right now a club from a small country is on a relatively even footing with a club from a larger country excepting that clubs from larger cities have an advantage. Do you think that the rest of the world will want to see nation against nation competition or will they view it sort of like people would view a California team in US national competition?

Personally I don't like unenforceable rules and I think masters swimming would suffer from trying to set up rules that would ensure "real club competition", but I don't think Masters swimming is really about nation against nation competition either. There is a whole lot of baggage that comes with national teams (selection process for example) that just doesn't jibe with the ideals of masters swimming. I think you would get more support outside the US for "open" competition where anyone can form a team than for national teams.

TheGoodSmith
July 26th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Question: Do these 4 guys live in the same city or general area in Italy?

1) Giuseppe, Tiano M38
2) Agostinone, Andrea M37
3) Machesi, Fabio M43
4) Savino, Metello M43


John Smith

Frank Thompson
July 26th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Lindsey:

You bring up some excellent points. I am not sure how the masters swimming world views this. It always sounds nice to think that we could have our own "Masters Olympics" like swimming does but then we are not set up like an Olympic sport and we don't have National Teams. Most National Teams responsibilities are for the best team performance which includes medal production, records, and being the best nation performing in the sport. I not sure how that ideal gets transfered to masters swimming and how it would effect the goals, objectives, and mission of masters swimming. Plus how would each nation manage this and set critera as to what a National team is suppose to be made of and should the meet be swam with only these caliber of swimmers.

I aways mention back to 1988 because it was so obvious as to the superteam concept that Holmes Lumber Jax had. If you go to the FINA site and look up the results of the 1988 Championship you will see that Holmes won 30 out 36 relays that were contested at the meet and in 6 of those instances they got first and second. That was where this fire started and there has not been a performance like that since. One of the big reasons why this worked was the funding that was provided by the club.

My observation about the Masters World Championships is that its takes time, committment and money to go on these swimming trips. All the people that attend these championships frequently are not necessarily swimmers that would make a national team. So unless there is funding provided by the masters delegation or a sponsor then I can't see this thing taking off.

Another point to consider is the qualifing aspect of the meet. Up until about 8 years ago FINA did not have qualifing standards for swimmers attending the meet and now they do but they are not has hard as our USMS National standards. Does this mean they don't put a great emphasis on speed but on participation. And if participation is the most important aspect of the mission, then how will incorporating the speed element of the swimmers affect that particpation. I believe that is the real key here because FINA does not want a meet of the size of our USMS Nationals.

Your point about open competition is kinda of happening right now in that clubs can take a swimmer from a different nation and he can register with anyone he wants as long as he meets the timing requirements of National registration rules.

Maybe this is a can of worms that no one wants to deal with and leaving it the way it is currently, is what is going to happen.

kokkole
July 27th, 2006, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Question: Do these 4 guys live in the same city or general area in Italy?

1) Giuseppe, Tiano M38
2) Agostinone, Andrea M37
3) Machesi, Fabio M43
4) Savino, Metello M43


John Smith

They all live in the city of Milan, and work out together regularly.

DodgyDunk
July 27th, 2006, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Frank Thompson

My observation about the Masters World Championships is that its takes time, committment and money to go on these swimming trips. All the people that attend these championships frequently are not necessarily swimmers that would make a national team. So unless there is funding provided by the masters delegation or a sponsor then I can't see this thing taking off.


Good point about the money aspect of holding a national representative world championships. "Open" Masters World Championships (and, over here, the European Masters Championships) attract several thousands of swimmers and their families. The reason cities volunteer to host these events is not solely due to the desire to see old folks swim against each other, but rather to fill up hotel rooms and get a share of the tourist dollar (or euro).

Secondly, swimming (especially masters) is not a mass-market sport, but about participation. There is no TV money to fund the events and the spectator galleries are full of the participants, not paying fans.

Finally, I'd say, the relays at Worlds are fine the way they are. You do your best and try to beat who's there. If they're too good this year, wait till the Worlds are held somewhere less attractive to visitors from North America, such as Casablanca in 1998 (the location for my only World golds).

It's just a game!

TheGoodSmith
July 27th, 2006, 11:00 AM
There's a simple solution to downgrading the aggressive level of this meet and keeping it from becoming more "tainted" as has been suggested in terms of elite performances and elite relay combinations from so called unrelated swimmers.

Just don't call it a "World Championship"...... don't have cut off times for slower swimmers and don't measure world record performances.

This will certainly keep it at a more local team and individual performance level. Note, however, it is currently not portrayed as anything but a higher end championship or "competitive" endeavor for masters swimmers......... hence the drive to swim faster with faster relays.


John smith

kokkole
July 27th, 2006, 05:55 PM
latest news from Italy (just heard from Giuseppe Tiano):

The DDS relay team may not be able to race, as Fabio Marchesi (fly) is not yet sure that he can make it.

The other 3 swimmers will be at Stanford for their individual events.

Ciao!

PS: I'm all for national, rather than team, representation for relays at the Worlds. I'm all for elite teams, too! I just love watching good swimming!
:cool:

michaelmoore
July 28th, 2006, 02:04 AM
When we came up with the idea of a relay day, it was a way to have fun; to bring out some of the swimmers who might not want to swim at Worlds, but you could get your team mates out there to swim in a 200, after all it is only a 50.

It was also a way to get all the relays in worlds. In past worlds, just the mixed medley and the mixed free were raced. Now all the 200s will have be raced. It will be a chance for swimmers to swim in great facilities and deep water. It will also be a chance to dive off of blocks that are right at the height limit - dont look down.

We also thought that it would be a short day, and give the swimmers a chance to rest, for those teams with few swimmers, they could go traveling and the out of town officials would get a chance to tour the area. I thought we would be out of the pool by 1pm-2pm.

Well there are almost 1,500 relay teams entered and it will be normal day. I have heard from many people that they are looking forward to swim in the relays and compete for their team.

FUN-FITNESS- and Competition. Lets have some fun for all. If records get broken, that is fine - there will certainly be the competition there.

Of course, with all the competion going on, it might be fun to turn on the team calculator to see which team scores the most points. Double points for relays.


michael

TheGoodSmith
July 28th, 2006, 10:24 AM
Michael,

I like the concept of "relay day". It's a different flavor from masters Nationals and meet formats that I grew up with as a kid. Should be amusing to see so many old people out there grinding up water. We will drink beers at the end of the day and complain about our aches and pains, regardless.


John Smith

kokkole
August 6th, 2006, 12:02 PM
I see that John and Rich have met Metello!

Men 40-44 100 LC Meter Freestyle
1 Saeger, Rich E 42 TYR-USA 54.00 53.45W
25.40 53.45 (28.05)
2 Savino, Metello 43 DDS-ITA 54.50 54.17M
25.83 54.17 (28.34)
3 Smith, John C 44 TYR-USA 54.50 54.27M
25.98 54.27 (28.29)

:cool:

TheGoodSmith
August 6th, 2006, 02:11 PM
Actually, I did not get to meet him. Hell, I was so delerious the last 20 meters I was almost converted to Catholocism...... uh.....I mean Italianism.

Note.... 100 m free is a middle distance event when you are over 40.

Helpful hint.... do not train SCM for a Long Course meet.

John Smith

kokkole
August 6th, 2006, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Actually, I did not get to meet him. Hell, I was so delerious the last 20 meters I was almost converted to Catholocism...... uh.....I mean Italianism.

Note.... 100 m free is a middle distance event when you are over 40.

Helpful hint.... do not train SCM for a Long Course meet.

John Smith

I would have LOVED to see your race. It must've been a good one. Compliments to all of you!

:)

Paul Smith
August 8th, 2006, 10:16 PM
Kokkole,
We had two very competitive and really funny relays today with the Italians......they we're awesome swimmers and incredible sportsman......I got a chance to talk briefly with both Metello (he anchored the free relay against me and Fabio (we went head to head on the fly legs of the medley)......both we're very nice and I wish we'd gotten to talk more!

Speaking of the Italians.....rumor has it from a very reliable soruc that they we're at a different bar than our team last night but managed to outdrink us in a BIG way.....apparently they even sold off some of their clothing to some of the gals in attendence.....now that's how you fund team travel!

swimgold92
August 8th, 2006, 11:24 PM
Paul,
Great splits on all TYR relays :D

knelson
August 8th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Some amazing relay swims all around but just glancing through the results how bout that medley relay effort by Colorado masters 200+? Oh my word 1:50.83. Are you kidding me?

1 CMS 'A-USA' 1:53.30 1:50.83W
1) Wood, Steve M46 2) Groselle, Jack R M52
3) Hedrick, Trip M52 4) Abrahams, Richard T M61
28.75 1:00.27 (31.52)
1:25.95 (25.68) 1:50.83 (24.88)

Hard to find fault with any of these splits, but Rich Abrahams anchoring in a 24.88, that's just unreal. Congrats guys!

kokkole
August 9th, 2006, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
Kokkole,
We had two very competitive and really funny relays today with the Italians......they we're awesome swimmers and incredible sportsman......I got a chance to talk briefly with both Metello (he anchored the free relay against me and Fabio (we went head to head on the fly legs of the medley)......both we're very nice and I wish we'd gotten to talk more!

Speaking of the Italians.....rumor has it from a very reliable soruc that they we're at a different bar than our team last night but managed to outdrink us in a BIG way.....apparently they even sold off some of their clothing to some of the gals in attendence.....now that's how you fund team travel!

When all the controversy is said and done, the competition is just plain a lot of fun.

:D

PS: Must the Italian Consulate make formal apologies to the gals at the bar for the Fantastic Four's (that's their nickname) behaviour? :confused:

Howard
August 9th, 2006, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by knelson
Some amazing relay swims all around but just glancing through the results how bout that medley relay effort by Colorado masters 200+? Oh my word 1:50.83. Are you kidding me?

1 CMS 'A-USA' 1:53.30 1:50.83W
1) Wood, Steve M46 2) Groselle, Jack R M52
3) Hedrick, Trip M52 4) Abrahams, Richard T M61
28.75 1:00.27 (31.52)
1:25.95 (25.68) 1:50.83 (24.88)

Hard to find fault with any of these splits, but Rich Abrahams anchoring in a 24.88, that's just unreal. Congrats guys!
That's a leadoff world record for Steve Wood who is actually from Texas and where is Trip actually from? Very good relay but I'll bet Steve thought he was going to be on the relay with the Smith boys. Looks like it all worked out.

kokkole
August 9th, 2006, 11:03 AM
To Paul and John, and the whole Team TYR,

I've just been informed that it will be my job to console the DDS relay team (Fantastic Four) for "only" getting the silver, upon their arrival in Italy.

THANKS FOR BEATING THEM!!! ;)

Paul Smith
August 9th, 2006, 11:43 AM
Kokkole,
It was actually Giuseppe that anchored the free relay that I spoke with.....Metello lead off against our "youngster" Matt.

As for the "win" in both relays.....I'm putting an asterik next to it and asking for a rematch when Fabio is healthy......showing up to swim two months after surgery was studly but he was not at 100%.....set up the meet in Italy when he's healthy & John, Rich, Greg, Matt & I will come over...and maybe see if we can sell some of our stuff to the Italian ladies!

PS: You need to tell the fantastic four to hold out for better $$#, the Baziallians we're getting $20 a suit!

kokkole
August 9th, 2006, 12:02 PM
Giuseppe is the one who got his bachelor degree at UCLA... just in case he spoke English pretty good.

We're real proud of our Fastastic Four!! Can't wait to see you in Italy for the rematch. :cool:

Ciao!

geochuck
August 13th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Congrats to all at the worlds. Especialy team TYR good job. I have arrived home from my long journey even managed a little swim in Gillette Wy, a nice little pool but very warm.

TheGoodSmith
August 15th, 2006, 01:48 PM
I'm thinking if we are going to Italy, the meet needs to be Short Course Meters........ not Long Course !

First of all, I can only concentrate for a maximum of 11 seconds. Secondly, the turn is an essential survival element for those over 40.


John Smith

Paul Smith
August 15th, 2006, 04:47 PM
John.....we need to get on the Italian training regime.

By the way....Tori told us about your 11 second concentration problem! :)

TheGoodSmith
August 16th, 2006, 02:55 PM
Hey, there's no problem.


John Smith

carcaridon
September 5th, 2006, 10:44 AM
Sorry for bringing up an old argument but I couldn't help it since we're talking about challenges here, serious stuff...:D Before I begin I will introduce myself since I am not a very active user of this forum. I am one of the swimmers on the Italian 160-200 relay team that swam against our TYR friends in Stanford.

First of all I would like to express my opinion about "cherry picking" swimmers for relays. My team mates and I live in the same town, work out together and have known each other for 25 years because we were part of the same club team since we were kids. All these years later I feel blessed from a swimming point of view because I can train and compete with my long time buddies, but I also realize that not everyone has the same luck. We lost both relays to the Smith & Smith Co. So we’re bitter from losing to four guys that don’t even work out together and that have joined forces “just” to set world records, right? Not even close. The truth is I don’t care and neither do my team mates, all that matters is that we raced and in the end lost to four incredible swimmers and we feel privileged to have had the chance to compete against them and hopefully this can be the beginning of a long distance friendly rivalry, especially since Fabio is back in business and will without doubt be at his standard level in no time.

So to make it official we accept the challenge in Italy in short course meters. Yesterday my buddies and I had our traditional "beginning of the season meeting" (lots of food and drinks... we talk swimming for all of about 2 minutes, just a tad over the time that Saeger takes to swim a 200 free...) and came across your posts and couldn't help but smile. These are the kind of things that keep us motivated to train and lead a healthy life.

So now that the challenge is set where and when? Agreed that the rematch be in Italy allow me to make the suggestion. Traditionally here in Italy masters swimmers prepare an event in the winter short course and then another cycle with culminates in the National Championship in the summer long course. Since we don't have short course Nationals we make do with a meet that takes place the last weekend of January in Desenzano (on Lake Garda for those familiar with Italian geography), most Italian masters prepare and shave down for this meet. If you have some time off after the meet it is very close to some great skiing resorts and just 90 miles away from Venice. The schedule of events does not include relays but in the past the organization has been very positive about organizing record setting attempts at the end of the days races. That’s where we DDS set the 160-200 world record short course for the 200 medley relay. The atmosphere would be great because people would hang out just to see the Americans swim against the local boys…

So, my friends, now the ball is yours, get your sh…tuff together and come and race across the Atlantic!

letsrace
September 5th, 2006, 10:52 AM
Hey, this seems very fair. The Italians have been very forgiving. You boys owe them the opportunity to defend themselves on their own turf.

:D

Jeff Commings
September 5th, 2006, 11:27 AM
Oooooooh. This sounds like fun.

Paul Smith
September 5th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Giuseppe......if I can get my teamates to join me at some point I'll gladly make the trip.....but you have to promise me the same crowds of Italian women at the bars wanting to buy my suit as rumor has it you and the Brazillians drew here!

January may however be a tough time.....John may be having shoulder surgery, Rich has a new baby on the way, Rhodenbaugh is in the heat of the college season (coaching at U of A) and thats one of my busiest times of the year.....summer long course may be an option however.....lets see what we can come up with before Perth in 2 years!

swimgold92
September 5th, 2006, 02:50 PM
Toooo bad, that I'm not OLD enough to be on those relays :D

letsrace
September 5th, 2006, 03:07 PM
So now the Smith's are recruiting... Vlad Smith. Kind of catchy. ;)

swimgold92
September 5th, 2006, 03:11 PM
I wish...:D

carcaridon
September 5th, 2006, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by swimgold92
Toooo bad, that I'm not OLD enough to be on those relays :D

THANK GOD you're not old enough to make those relays!!! :D

carcaridon
September 5th, 2006, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
Giuseppe......if I can get my teamates to join me at some point I'll gladly make the trip.....but you have to promise me the same crowds of Italian women at the bars wanting to buy my suit as rumor has it you and the Brazillians drew here!

January may however be a tough time.....John may be having shoulder surgery, Rich has a new baby on the way, Rhodenbaugh is in the heat of the college season (coaching at U of A) and thats one of my busiest times of the year.....summer long course may be an option however.....lets see what we can come up with before Perth in 2 years!

Kokkole can set you guys up with some babes but I don't think you need any help...

Another option could be our Italian National long course, usually they take place the last week of June. Normally this wouldn't be an open meet but I think that under these special circumstances we could get you guys to compete in them.

It's up to you guys, we're here anyway... ;)

TheGoodSmith
September 5th, 2006, 05:29 PM
Paul,

Any women that buys your suit can rent it out as a termite cover for a small house.

As for the Italians...... if my wife finds out about this Italy invitation, I will have ZERO dollars left in my wallet. She has been aching to go there for years.


John Smith

knelson
September 5th, 2006, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by carcaridon
THANK GOD you're not old enough to make those relays!!! :D

Sure he is. He just needs someone a little older to add on those years he's taking off. Perhaps Rich Abrahams is a good candidate! :D