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Racer X
August 29th, 2006, 03:06 PM
Hi again,

I watched the Pan Pacs last weekend and noticed most everyone is using the track start now. Does anyone know who gets credit for introducing the track start to the swimming world? If so, when was it introduced? As a starting point, I will admit switching to the track start in my sophomore year in college- way back in nineteen hundred and eighty four.

I also noticed everyone, including the sprinters, is putting the underwater butterfly kick to good effect. I was pretty surprised to see the 50m folks using it as well. It appeared that they were doing about 3 dophin kicks and then exploding to the top with a freestyle kick. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Racer X

lefty
August 29th, 2006, 04:42 PM
I first used a track start in 1986. I stopped using it in 1986.

You have to have incredible toe strength to do a track start, otherwise the power you give up will not be worth the added speed off the block.

geochuck
August 29th, 2006, 04:47 PM
If you check the video 17 up from the bottom Thorpe take a look at his dolphin kicks http://www.online1966.com/all.asp I think I counted 7 dolphin kicks.

aquaFeisty
August 29th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Wow, that was a cool clip. I like how it shows how seemlessly Thorpe goes from dolphins into flutter. Thanks, Geochuck.

Jeff Commings
August 29th, 2006, 07:19 PM
I feel I have to tell people that the track start does not give much of an advantage over the grab start.

The track start is praised because it allows for a faster reaction from the block.

The grab start allows more power, but because of the position of the body the reaction is about three-tenths of a second slower. You gain that disadvantage back within the first five seconds of the race because you've entered the water with more power, which means more speed carried through greater distance.

If you're trying to decide which start you want to use, have someone standing at the 15-meter mark timing you on track starts and grab starts. Do two of each.

letsrace
August 29th, 2006, 08:56 PM
I am glad Jeff posted on this topic. I completely agree with him. The track start may be better from some, but I don't think it is better for all. The fact that so many use a track start does not make it the better start technique.

All swimmers should experiment with both start techniques and determine which is faster.

Personally, I like the stability, consistency and trajectory that I gain from a grab start.

This article (http://www.breaststroke.info/Is%20the%20Grab%20Start%20Dead%20rev2.htm) gives some interesting background and data on the two starts (it also gives a pitch for a new Trademarked start).

knelson
August 30th, 2006, 01:22 AM
I'm with Jeff and Mike on this. By all means experiment with both starts, but don't just assume the track start is faster because lots of fast swimmers are using it.

It seems to me the track start first starting getting popular about the same time when the rules changed to one false start = DQ. I'm sure many here remember the days when in short course swimming you were allowed one false start and in long course the first two false starts were charged to the field. When the rules changed coaches started teaching their swimmers the track start since it's a little more stable on the blocks.

geochuck
August 30th, 2006, 06:18 AM
What if you cannot bend over enough to do the gab start or the track start. I still use the hands behind the butt spring release dive the Aussies did in the 50s.

Racer X
August 30th, 2006, 08:34 AM
Kirk,

Do you know when the rules regarding false starts were changed? In the 80's, when I swam in college, we still were allowed two false starts.

It makes some sense that coaches and swimmers switched to it because of this. I switched to it in 1984 because it felt much more stable, gave me a quicker start than anyone on my team, and it made some sense to me that sprinters should try to emulate the world's fastest humans-100m dash guys. My coach saw the light and tried to get other teammates to switch. However, few actually did.

It does take some getting used to. In fact, I was the only one using it in my entire league for a while. Not knowing the rules, I was worried the ref might DQ me the first time I used it in a meet.

Hoosier
August 30th, 2006, 10:24 AM
That video is awesome!!! Thanks George...I could watch that over and over again.

Anthony Thompson
August 30th, 2006, 10:43 AM
I think Rowdy Gaines and Dara Torres take some credit for introducing the track start to swimming.

geochuck
August 30th, 2006, 10:54 AM
The first inclings of a track start came in 1956 the Aussies did the hands clasped behind their backs, no wind up. I don't remember how they got to the track start.

knelson
August 30th, 2006, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Racer X
Do you know when the rules regarding false starts were changed? In the 80's, when I swam in college, we still were allowed two false starts.

I'm not exactly sure, but it may have varied some between NCAA and USS. My recollection is USS adopted the new rule in the mid '80s. I never false started so it didn't affect me much.

The "track start" in track makes more sense to me because they are using starting blocks so the back foot has something to push off against. I'm sure people with a good track start in swimming are able to get a good push with the back leg, but whenever I do it it seems like my back leg is just sort of along for the ride.

Also, I've noticed on TV when they show starts head-on it is very difficult to push off perfectly straight with a track start. People using a track start always look a little bent in the air and that's got to cause extra drag when they hit the water.

letsrace
August 30th, 2006, 11:43 AM
George's point about flexibility is a good illustration of why you should be open to various start techniques. I had one kid who insisted on doing a track start. I insisted that he do a grab start. After 3 grab starts, I yielded, seeing that he did not have the flexibility or proportions to get into a comfortable ready position with the grab start. That incident opened my mind a bit to the track start.

Having said that, I still don't like it very much.

Four reasons:
1. Kirk's point - cockeyed starts.
2. Back foot slippage
3. Poor entry angle.
4. Reduced power.

Any good stories about a bloodied or otherwise injured foot caused by a back foot slip with the track start?

aquaFeisty
August 30th, 2006, 11:44 AM
I know that the 'you get one false start' rule was still in effect when I swam (briefly) USS in 1986-88, but was gone by my senior year in high school (1992-93). I didn't swim in the years in between - lots of moving around.

My view on the grab start vs. track start is that intuitively, the grab start has got to be a lot more powerful. Think about your vertical leap on land: would you rather test it jumping off one foot or off two? That said, I do the track start because you do need decent hamstring flexibility to get your butt high enough for the grab start. I look like I'm squatting if I attempt a grab start - it's not pretty. With some serious stretching, I want to get to the point where I can try out the grab start.

Racer X
August 30th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Everyone is making excellent points regarding the track start. From my perspective, I had been doing the standard grab start from age 9 to age 19. I changed to the track start and used it effectively in college for 2 1/2 years. I never felt the need to go back to the grab start.

Once you get rolling on a grab start-look out. That just doesn't happen with a track start. I saw several poor folks DQ at this year's Masters Worlds in Stanford because of this. Imagine training for months, flying to another country, paying for a hotel, and then not even swimming cause ya deeked at the start. WC or Olympics? I wouldn't take the chance.

Anthony Thompson states that Rowdy Gaines and Dara torres had a hand in introducing the track start to the world. Does anyone know when they began to use it? Rowdy is 3 years older than me and Dara is 3 years younger. I doubt Dara did it before I did in 1984. Rowdy may be the answer, although I'm a bit sceptical, if my memory serves.

The false start rule had to have changed after I got out of college in 1986. I stopped paying much attention to swimming after that. Hence the questions. This board is a great source for historical info with all the diversity that seems to be here.

Jeff Commings
August 30th, 2006, 02:56 PM
There were lots of false starts at the 1996 Olympics. The first one was charged to the field, then the second to the swimmer causing it.

So internationally, it wasn't changed until after that. Nationally, I think USA Swimming made the no-false start rule shortly before that.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 30th, 2006, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
If you check the video 17 up from the bottom Thorpe take a look at his dolphin kicks http://www.online1966.com/all.asp I think I counted 7 dolphin kicks.

Taks meka, George.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 30th, 2006, 04:35 PM
when I see the track start, I notice tht everyone first pulls back then foward. That doesn't happen with the grad start so often. I don't like to see the track start. It unnerves me.

patrick
August 30th, 2006, 04:50 PM
I don't recall the beginning of the track start yet to my best recollection it would have to be in the mid 80s, and that being post 1984 Olympics. The inception would have been after a USS or FINA rule change because for years a swimmer had to have both heels on the block. I remember a referee charging a false start to a swimmer just because he lifted one heel up.

To Jeff's point: you get alot more power and drive from a grab start. Also, you are able to grab the block with one hand over the other and go off the block in a streamline position. It's also the most efficient start and one I teach to all Master's swimmers.

Remember the fastest you will go in a race is when you enter the water off the start and throw a glide in during the streamline.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 30th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Look at the last video clip, see how thorpe pushes backward then forward. This to me looks very bad and time consuming. No coach would ever allow that with the old grab start. I remember in high school being told to push off with myhands and then my toes & roll out with the push.

These are great videos george. I wonder why I haven't found them in the past.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 30th, 2006, 04:56 PM
does anyone know what "ovenfra" means? One of these videos is a woman doing a back start. It says ovenfra. I've never heard of that.

I wish more people from Europe responded to this board. I have recommended it to cousins and they don't like it because they say it is hard ot read. They both speak perfect English.

jim clemmons
August 30th, 2006, 05:49 PM
does anyone know what "ovenfra" means?

Apparently "from above" as in "a view ovenfra" (a view from above).

jim clemmons
August 30th, 2006, 05:52 PM
http://www.phoons.com/dk/fromabove.html

Some photos set "ovenfra".

geochuck
August 30th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
These are great videos george. I wonder why I haven't found them in the past. I teach some swimmers on the net, Belgians, Dutch, Indians, Germans and some South Africans I found these quite a while ago and use them to help teach. On that site there are 10 others you may want to watch. They are on this page listed here - Sidste 10 uploads http://www.online1966.com/last10.asp

I am supposed to go to Belgium and Germany for the month of September to teach four one week clinics.

geochuck
August 30th, 2006, 06:08 PM
Thanks for clearing that up Jim, I was going to say the woman who cooks.

jim clemmons
August 30th, 2006, 08:43 PM
I was going to say the woman who cooks

and is probably barefoot as well.

Only one question remains.....Is she heading towards the kitchen?

letsrace
August 31st, 2006, 06:29 AM
If you are going to do a grab start, then I ask, "should you pull back into position? or lean forward over your front leg?"

I believe the traditional view is to pull back, but I this article gives an argument against: http://coachesinfo.com/category/swimming/321/

They argue that reaction time might be slowed by tensing.

Racer X
August 31st, 2006, 08:24 AM
Craig,

I disagree with your statement about most that use the track start use the slingshot approach that is described very well in Mike's article above. I think most use the standard track start in which you center your weight over the block and simply move everything forward at the beep. Slinging back and then forward makes no sense to me and I would not recommend it. Keeping your weight centered on the track start is what helps prevent false starts.


Mike,

It sounds like you are asking about a track start, not a grab start, when you ask if people are putting their weight over their forward foot. That guy in the video has some amazing quad tone.

I'm not sure I should admit this or not, but in the 50, I used to be able to pull guys off the block who were really leaning forward on the grab start, by moving a little just before the gun. I got that from watching QB's who drew the defense offsides by changing their cadence. Remember, this is still when you were allowed one false start! All it did was get them wet and more cautious. I never deeked anyone doing this. You found out real quick who was trying to roll.

Rich Abrahams
August 31st, 2006, 10:30 AM
Mike,

Thanks for the link to that start article. I'm not sure I understand most of it, but it was instructional to watch each video 4 or 5 times in in a row. Check out where the swimmers feet leave the frame in each of the videos. Very interesting.

Personally I prefer the grab start because that is what I'm used to, but also because I feel my angle of entry and the immediate feel of acceleration is better. With the grab start I sometimes enter slightly crooked and seem to hit the water too soon.

One thing I did learn from the article was to use your arms on the start. I've never done that. I just threw them forward at the starting signal. As soon as I get back in the water (knee operation yesterday) I'm going to work on it.

Rich

letsrace
August 31st, 2006, 11:22 AM
Yes, I meant on the track start. I actually have a video somewhere that I took from US Open 2005 of 50 freestylers. My recollection is that most were doing track starts and the fast guys were centering there weight closer to their front foot (meaning, not pulling back).

I will keep looking for that video. Racer X, you can admit that dirty little secret. I exerienced that tactic at a big meet once. A slow 200 flyer, purposely false started in the 100 fly. The outcome was decisive. The final times were remarkably slow and the 200 flyer, got second... to make the 1992 Olympic Team.

Rich, sorry to hear about your knee. I hope you weren't doing something stupid like... breaststroke.

:D

Rich Abrahams
August 31st, 2006, 11:58 AM
Would hopping up the benches at Red Rocks Ampitheater one leg at a time qualify as stupid for a 60 year old? I've attached a picture of my runnning up the benches (much more sensible) from last fall to add some perspective.

Pushing the envelope has some drawbacks

thewookiee
August 31st, 2006, 12:16 PM
Now, just because Mel did it at the trials and the olympic finals, doesn't mean he did it on purpose. LOL

letsrace
August 31st, 2006, 12:17 PM
I am not about to tell Rich Abrahams what is stupid and what is not. If Mr. Abrahams says "you must run benches to swim faster", I will run benches.

If Rich tells me I must swim breastroke to... well, maybe there are limits to my blind faith. ;)

geochuck
August 31st, 2006, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Rich Abrahams
Would hopping up the benches at Red Rocks Ampitheater one leg at a time qualify as stupid for a 60 year old? I've attached a picture of my runnning up the benches (much more sensible) from last fall to add some perspective.

Pushing the envelope has some drawbacks Where is the picture ?

Racer X
August 31st, 2006, 01:50 PM
So Mike,

I googled ya and read that you were one of "those underwater, kick butterfly on your back the whole way" back strokers. Did you come up with that or was it someone else? I understand they had to change the rules because of guys like you; ) I remember reading about all the hub bub at the time. I can't remember who it was about.

knelson
August 31st, 2006, 02:26 PM
Not to say Mike isn't famous :), but you're probably thinking of David Berkoff.

Rich Abrahams
August 31st, 2006, 02:54 PM
George,

I'm assuming the picture file was too big to post (2+MB) but it is just as likely to be an IBM problem (Idiot Behind Machine)

Rich

Racer X
August 31st, 2006, 03:16 PM
Yep, Berkoff is the guy I was thinking of.

The Princeton article on Mike stated he only took two strokes during the entire 50 back in his record breaking relay. The rest was underwater.

Rich,

I went back and reviewed Mike's video link. It does appear that the guy gets increased hang time/distance from his grab start when compared to his track start. However, the article does go to state that swimmers do better with starts that they are familiar with and practice at. That guy in the video may have had a preference/bias toward the grab start.

letsrace
August 31st, 2006, 09:07 PM
It was the famed David Berkoff of whom you were thinking.

I did not come up with the underwater kick nor did David, as I understand it. David was an inspiration for me, but I can't give him full credit for my underwater kick. The less-famous, Richard Hughes, inspired me to become a better underwater kicker than backstroker.

Even so, competition is a powerful force and the rivalry between Princeton and Harvard did a lot to encourage Richard, and I suspect, David, to innovate.

Racer X
September 1st, 2006, 08:16 AM
Mike,

Do you recall my friend, former Harvard sprinter, Mark Shagena? Mark was the Michigan High School State Champ in the 50 or 100 free, back in the day. You may have gone up against him in a relay.

Prior to Harvard, Mark trained under the great Andover High School coach- Mike Lane. Mike trained several state champs in the 50 and 100 free. He was also a great age group coach. His summer teams were league champs, several years in a row.

Was Richard Hughes the underwater backstroke kick originator? This is what I'm getting at with my original post. The famous people popularize a new technique, but who was the true innovator?

knelson
September 1st, 2006, 10:08 AM
Are you from Michigan Racer X? Andover was pretty dominant when I was in high school. I believe they won states my senior year (1988).

ande
September 1st, 2006, 11:37 AM
rich

only if you injure yourself

ande



Originally posted by Rich Abrahams
Would hopping up the benches at Red Rocks Ampitheater one leg at a time qualify as stupid for a 60 year old? I've attached a picture of my runnning up the benches (much more sensible) from last fall to add some perspective.

Pushing the envelope has some drawbacks

Racer X
September 1st, 2006, 11:50 AM
Yes I am from Michigan.

I swam for Birmingham Brother Rice from 1980-82. Ann Arbor Pioneer was the big daddy back in my day. They won the state something like seven years in a row. Our highest rank was 4th my senior year, but Rice did very well in the late 80's early 90's. I think they won the state several times. My team captain was the a guy named Rob Mackle. That guy was a true animal. he went on to full scholarship at IU and then turned into a pro triathlete. I saw him on tv years ago, winning the swimming portion of the Hawaii Iron Man. No one could keep up with Rob in practice. Our coach had to come up with whole new sets just for him. In the off season, he would lift free weights with the two toughest guys on our football team and we had some good football teams.

letsrace
September 1st, 2006, 11:58 AM
I do recall Mark, but I can't say that I knew him.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that Richard originated the underwater kick either. I have heard reports that Jesse Vassallo was using a dolphin kick off starts and/or turns. I am not a very good swimming historian, unfortunately, so I can not confirm or deny this report.

But the dolphin kick itself was not the innovation, I would argue. The innovation was pushing the underwater kick to its limits. The innovation can be attributed to David and Richard. At least for me, this is true.

It would be good to get David's input on this before some Princetonian rewrites history. ;)

knelson
September 1st, 2006, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Racer X
Yes I am from Michigan.

I swam for Birmingham Brother Rice from 1980-82. Ann Arbor Pioneer was the big daddy back in my day. They won the state something like seven years in a row.

AAP has been consistently good, and I think a lot of that has to do with coach Denny Hill. Speaking of Pioneer, the most impressive Michigan high school record is Dave Chernek's 100 breaststroke time of 55.66 from 1981. That time has withstood a lot of great swimmers--not to mention rule changes--in the last 25 years!

Frank Thompson
September 1st, 2006, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Racer X
Yes I am from Michigan.

I swam for Birmingham Brother Rice from 1980-82. Ann Arbor Pioneer was the big daddy back in my day. They won the state something like seven years in a row. Our highest rank was 4th my senior year, but Rice did very well in the late 80's early 90's. I think they won the state several times. My team captain was the a guy named Rob Mackle. That guy was a true animal. he went on to full scholarship at IU and then turned into a pro triathlete. I saw him on tv years ago, winning the swimming portion of the Hawaii Iron Man. No one could keep up with Rob in practice. Our coach had to come up with whole new sets just for him. In the off season, he would lift free weights with the two toughest guys on our football team and we had some good football teams.

Racer X:

I went to your same HS about 10 years before you did. I know Rob Mackle very well. I believe he is living in Jupitar Florida. I also know Coach George O'Brien and we were on the same AAU team the Maple Swim Club. Speaking of Andover, the best sprinter that ever graduated from that HS is starting to practice and maybe he will swim some masters meets. He showed up at a couple of our practices last year. His name is Raffi Karapetian. He is the only swimmer in Michigan HS history to ever win the 50 Free four years in a row.

Frank Thompson
September 1st, 2006, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by knelson
AAP has been consistently good, and I think a lot of that has to do with coach Denny Hill. Speaking of Pioneer, the most impressive Michigan high school record is Dave Chernek's 100 breaststroke time of 55.66 from 1981. That time has withstood a lot of great swimmers--not to mention rule changes--in the last 25 years!

Kirk:

Denny is still coaching and he is a legend in Michigan HS swimming. In fact next month you will see his team on the cover of Swimming World magazine. He has been coaching at least 38 years because he was when I was swimming in HS.

David Chernek's 100 Breast time was a National HS record for 1 day until Glenn Mills broke that time at the Ohio HS State Championship meet. He was 3rd in the country that year behind Mills and Olympian John Moffat. He never really went much faster in the 100 at UCLA but I believe did place in the 200 Breast. I think he may have been on the UCLA's NCAA Championship team. That record still stands in Michigan and its the oldest HS record for now. I heard that he never went faster than :56.5 before he did that swim. That record might last over 30 years.

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 1st, 2006, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by letsrace
It was the famed David Berkoff of whom you were thinking.

I did not come up with the underwater kick nor did David, as I understand it. David was an inspiration for me, but I can't give him full credit for my underwater kick. The less-famous, Richard Hughes, inspired me to become a better underwater kicker than backstroker.

Even so, competition is a powerful force and the rivalry between Princeton and Harvard did a lot to encourage Richard, and I suspect, David, to innovate.

I was going to write who I was under the impression was the inventer of the underwater kick but it slipped my mind. He wsa Chzeck. His student came to the US & coached at American (U?) Wasn't his name something like Nagy. The originators name is........ sorry I can't remember. Somehow I've bcome terrible with names. I remember reading an article about it and thinking how could htat be fair.

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 1st, 2006, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by letsrace
It was the famed David Berkoff of whom you were thinking.

I did not come up with the underwater kick nor did David, as I understand it. David was an inspiration for me, but I can't give him full credit for my underwater kick. The less-famous, Richard Hughes, inspired me to become a better underwater kicker than backstroker.

Even so, competition is a powerful force and the rivalry between Princeton and Harvard did a lot to encourage Richard, and I suspect, David, to innovate.

I was going to write who I was under the impression was the inventer of the underwater kick but it slipped my mind. He wsa Chzeck. His student came to the US & coached at American (U?) Wasn't his name something like Nagy. The originators name is........ sorry I can't remember. Somehow I've bcome terrible with names. I remember reading an article about it and thinking how could htat be fair.

letsrace
September 1st, 2006, 03:14 PM
Josef Nagy is often called the "father of the modern breast stroke", I believe. I had never heard him refered to as "the father of underwater dolphin".

ande
September 1st, 2006, 03:26 PM
when I swam for texas around 1982 there was a backstroker from texas tech who used to SDK 20 or so yards off his start but he only went around 50 point or 51 in the 100 back. can recall his name

in 1984 when rowdy gaines trained in texas with richard quick, Rowdy's girlfriend came with him, she was a backstroker who had arm injuries so she dolphin kicked her 50 back and went around 26 low.

Berkoff was first to perfect streamlined dolphin kicking and break American and World records using it.

I wish I worked on SDK's in my younger years, I did a lot of dolphin kicking and stupid as it sounds there was a 70's TV show called "Man from Atlantis," when he dolphin kicked his arms were at his side, so I did most of my dolphin kicking with arms at my side when I was in college, SDK felt funny to me.

Around 1991 I started working on SDK

I'd love it if masters had a 50 SDK race
wouldn't that be fun?

for people who are strong streamlined Dolphin kickers,
it's their 2nd fastest stroke

1) freestyle
2) SDK
3) fly
4) back
5) breastroke

what's also interesting are the differences in time where you compare records in

100 yard back 44.6 vs 100 meter back 53.1
and
100 yard fly 44.7 vs 100 meter Fly 50.4

fly is faster but in short course backstrokers get to flip their turns and dolphin kick further

Ande



Originally posted by letsrace
It was the famed David Berkoff of whom you were thinking.

I did not come up with the underwater kick nor did David, as I understand it. David was an inspiration for me, but I can't give him full credit for my underwater kick. The less-famous, Richard Hughes, inspired me to become a better underwater kicker than backstroker.

Even so, competition is a powerful force and the rivalry between Princeton and Harvard did a lot to encourage Richard, and I suspect, David, to innovate.

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 1st, 2006, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by letsrace
Josef Nagy is often called the "father of the modern breast stroke", I believe. I had never heard him refered to as "the father of underwater dolphin". \

I remeber reading the article. I think it was in the Washigton Post or one of ht ecity papers. It was talking about the wonders of sports at AU. I think there were several eastern Europeans at AU then and they were trying to create a program.

I don't really think it is all that important though.

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 1st, 2006, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
If you check the video 17 up from the bottom Thorpe take a look at his dolphin kicks http://www.online1966.com/all.asp I think I counted 7 dolphin kicks.

On this site is a really great video of how badly Grant Hacket kicks. It is near the bottom of the list. It is him thorpe swimming together. It is amazing that it can be so bad yet he can be so good. I have tried to count how many strokes he takes and the coordination with the kick. I wonder if it could have caused all of his shoulder problems.

geochuck
September 1st, 2006, 03:53 PM
I have this in my swim stroke analysis program and he kicks 4 times but sometimes it almost looks like three beat.

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 1st, 2006, 03:59 PM
George,

I think hte kick is really weird. I ownderhow he learned to do this. I wonder if a coach just wasn't paying attention when Hacket was a kid or what.

Craig

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 1st, 2006, 03:59 PM
George,

I think hte kick is really weird. I ownderhow he learned to do this. I wonder if a coach just wasn't paying attention when Hacket was a kid or what.

Craig

geochuck
September 1st, 2006, 04:07 PM
I looked again it is really strange It must be efficient.

You can I belive get a free download from sport motion and you can slow it down realy slow.

http://www.sportsmotion.com/
https://id309.securedata.net/sports-motion.com/merchantmanager/specials.php it will work for about 14 days then you have to pay.

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 1st, 2006, 04:14 PM
George,

I could watch swimming videos for hours. I know I'm really weird. I find that they do help so much. There is a back to breast of an unidentified woman. She has a small dolphin kick in each stroke. You can see her kick and the water bubbles following the kick. I would bet this video is way before hte rule change.

Craig

geochuck
September 1st, 2006, 04:48 PM
Craig

I love videos, I make most of my retired income from stroke annalysis by videos. They send me the videos I do my thing and send them back. I do it with the Sports motion program.

Racer X
September 1st, 2006, 05:23 PM
Hi Frank,

We met at the Worlds. You were marshaling the 50 free. I got your e mail off the Michigan masters and dropped you a line, but the e mail came back to me as undeliverable. It was very nice to meet you. We had a great time at the meet. I couldn't find our Michigan masters area though. Oh well.

I followed Raffi's times and they were great. What ever happened to him in college?

Chernek even impressed Rob Mackle, if you can believe that. I saw him swim a couple times.

I didn't know you swam at Rice. George O'brien was a true old school task master. 1980 New Year's morning, 8 am practice-"OK guys, warm up will be 10 x 1000"!

letsrace
September 1st, 2006, 07:29 PM
George, I recall one overhead shot of Hackett, which I suspect is a different perspective of this same race. In the video that I recall, Hacket is on the top of the screen, though (someone might have flipped the video). I ask, because there is something funny from that video as I recall, like Hacket completely changes his stroke at the midpoint of a lap for some reason. It is only a vague recollection.

Do you know of which video I am referring? I will look around for it if not.

geochuck
September 1st, 2006, 07:42 PM
I have a little over 200 videos of Hacket swimming Iwill do a quick browse and check it out. Is it from a recent or longtime ago.

letsrace
September 1st, 2006, 07:52 PM
I think I just found it in my collection. The finals of the 400 free from the Olympics 2004. It is not the same race as the one to which you pointed.

I was watching his kick. It is nothing remarkable to those who don't kick with a six beat kick, I suppose. He just looks like he varies his kick rhythm so often in his race. Do my eyes deceive me or does he DO that?

geochuck
September 1st, 2006, 08:00 PM
I would have to see it and I just remmebered they are in my cumputer that was attacked by a virus if you have it send it and I can put it in sports motion program

geochuck
September 1st, 2006, 08:50 PM
It looks like a very rythmic kick at times then it changes to 1,2,3, plop and the one leg comes to almost a full stop. His stroke is very rythmic most of the time and then it seems like it comes to a full stop pause then goes again.

lefty
September 2nd, 2006, 12:45 AM
Racer X: Raffi swam only swam for one or two meets as a freshmen at (cannot remember) and ended up transferring to Oakland University. He only swam for 1 year at Oakland. In 1996 or 1997 he swam a 20.08 @ the Eastern MIchigan invitational ( in December). In the locker room he was talking about how that was the fastest he had been since he was a junior in high school. I think he holds the pool record at EMU still with that swim. Anyhow, he just missed nationals that year, but don't think it mattered because by the end of the year he was not really swimming much.

Michael Heather
September 2nd, 2006, 03:03 AM
Remember the title of this thread? I'll pick it back up. The first time I saw the track start was by a UCLA swimmer in about 1969. I do not know if it started there, but I had to do this start because it looked so cool. I used it through HS and JC, and even at Arizona State in the mid 70s, but was not allowed to use it by a grumpy starter in Utah in 1976 at the WAC championships.

It was very stable, being a modified three point stance, and had an effect on your competitors in that you could enter the water so very fast after the gun. As a sprinter, the mind game was often effective for giving advantage where it would otherwise not exist.

valhallan
September 2nd, 2006, 08:35 AM
I agree with this Michael...about the mind game factor (especially in the sprints). Everyone is tense...holding position...waiting for the signal.

Invariably the starter won't send the field off until everyone is still. And the trackers always seem to be the last ones in motion. (For the grabber...waiting for the gun while teetering on the edge is very nerve wracking...while trying to anticiapte a signal.)

I've seen races though where the trackers are off the blocks first...yet the grabbers pop up after a powerful pike and they're all even at the first stroke. The track start is fast, but tends to be flatter in my opinion.

mattson
September 5th, 2006, 08:37 AM
A guy on my high school swim team went to the U of Rochester in the late '80s. At the time, he said Coach Boomer originated the track start. Whether he meant that the coach was the first to mention it to him, the first to try it on a team-wide basis, or that the coach was THE first, I didn't think to ask at the time. (He also mentioned that Boomer was having them try a lot of different things, to see which would work and which wouldn't.)

Racer X
September 7th, 2006, 08:24 AM
Michael Heather,

Thanks for your post. Your dates mesh well with the two published papers I found referenced in some online articles. One paper was published in 1973 and the other in 1975. They compared the track start to the grab and one or two others. So, someone had to be using the track start before they were published. Too bad we don't know who the guy was from UCLA.

It seems as though the track start was first used in 1969. Michael Heather adopted it and used it until 1976. It then fell out of favor, but reappeared with me in 1984. I used it in 84, 85, and 86.

Mr Mattson has posted that Coach Boomer from University of Rochester was promoting the track start in the late 1980's. The track start seems to have been widely adopted during the late 80's and 90's due, perhaps, to the move to the no false start rule. It is now the start of choice at the World Class level.

Michael Heather
September 7th, 2006, 11:57 PM
Although I reference one guy from UCLA using the track start, most, if not all of the UCLA swimmers were using the start at this particular meet. You can credit coach Bob Horne if you like, since he would have had the most influence on the swimmers at the time.