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breastroker
August 29th, 2006, 10:24 PM
Lets start the ball rolling again, only two weeks until convention. I know I am getting excited.

Here is a great opportunity to discuss the rule changes before convention.

Anthony Thompson
August 30th, 2006, 10:48 AM
I really like the idea of creating "25 yard" events for our 75+ participants. I not sure what FINA would think about "25 meter" events, but since the USA is the only country will a lot of 25-yard pools; we should take advantage of our difference to create opportunities for our senior swimmers !

It will create a new opportunity for records at the LMSC, zone and national level !

Why stop at 25-yard individual races, why not allow 100-yd relay events for 75+ swimmers ?

Anthony Thompson
MOVY LMSC Chair

breastroker
August 30th, 2006, 12:19 PM
I agree with Anthony.

First this gives them a way to start masters competition, to enjoy the fun without worring if they will finish a 200 fly, or worring that they will hold up the heats.

I believe Australia already has 25 meter events, as well as 400 meter events!

It is really all about bringing FUN to everyone.

Anthony Thompson
August 30th, 2006, 12:34 PM
You are correct ! According the the AUSSI MASTERS RULE book dated Oct 2005, they do already have 25m races (Rule SW 19.3) and 400m & 800m stroke/IM events(Rule SW 19.2 & 19.3), and 1500m Back & Breastroke (Rules SW 19.2 & 19.3) as well as 4x25m relay events (Rule SW 19.4.2), but no 1500m Butterfly race.

http://www.home.aussimasters.com.au/Rules.pdf

I'm not sure I'm ready for an 800 or 1500m breaststroke, but would venture that others might be interested in a 1500m butterfly ! We all have a different sense of FUN - 25 yd as well as 1500m !

Wonder why the USMS rules proposal is limited to only 75+ aged swimmers for 25 yd races?

breastroker
August 30th, 2006, 12:54 PM
Anthony, remember the 18 year old rule. We start small, get something accomplished and when the naysayers see the world did not end, get the rest the following years.

I have always said I would love to have a 25 yard breast, and in fact one of our meets we have had 25 meter events. Always FUN.

They theme for this convention should be FUN!!!!

meldyck
August 31st, 2006, 04:08 PM
Anthony and Wayne:

I'm dead set against this proposed rule change for the addition of 25-yard/meter events in USMS meets. As one who is approaching the 75-year point (ahead of either of you, I believe), I'm offended by the notion that older swimmers need to swim shorter distances. How many of us can keep up with Graham Johnston, who just turned 75? He certainly doesn't need the 25's to help him along, just because he's older than we are.

This is something that I see in many sports that I do, the worst being competitive cross-country skiing where older skiers are REQUIRED to ski shorter events in order to compete for national titles.

There is already a venue for the 25-yard/meter event, by the way. It is the Senior Games, where one does not need to wait until he turns 75. Any 50+ swimmer can swim a 25 in the local Senior Games, including sidestroke. I appreciate that we would like to attract new, older competitors to our USMS ranks. But, let's encourage them to try out the Senior Games first to whet their appetites. Some will never want to leave the comfort of those Games but others will crave more. And that's what USMS should offer them.

I hope this proposed rule change is voted down.

-- mel

MPohlmann
August 31st, 2006, 05:16 PM
I tend to agree with Mel Dyck regarding not adding 25 yard events for 75+ age groups, but I'd like to clarify some of his points.

We already have the freedom to include 25 yard or meter events in USMS sanctioned events: Article 202.1.1 F (3). However, USMS records are not maintained for "nonconforming" events, nor are they included in National Championships.

The National Senior Games does not include 25 yard events. Some, but not all, state or local Senior Games may include 25 yard events.

mbmg3282
August 31st, 2006, 05:27 PM
Mel, while I enjoy insulting you on a regular basis, I don't think that was the intended purpose of this rule. I am not the backer of the rule, but as I understand it, the logic is as follows.

In some cases, our more senior athletes take longer to swim the 50. For these athletes, the race lasts beyond what would be consider a sprint. It is hard to consider a race that goes for over a minute a pure sprint. Thus, for these athletes, a 25 still gives them the opportunity to still sprint.

As I think the 100 is a distance race, I could see needed this long before I am 75.

Peter Cruise
August 31st, 2006, 06:15 PM
If you can forgive getting Canadian input (Wayne I don't know why you're not setting everyone straight on the track start thread), we have 25m races available at our annual local meet for novice master swimmers. They are incredibly popular and encourage newbies (whether once competitive or not) to dip their toes into meets. As long as high-altitude rugged guys like Mel are still presented the opportunity to enter 200fly & 400IM whatever their age, I don't see the harm.

meldyck
August 31st, 2006, 10:21 PM
Mary, thanks for the reminder about 25s already being allowed. I knew that, because we have had such meets here in CO, but I just forgot. My point was landed on by Mark Gill, namely that it is insulting, in my view, to single out the 75+ age group. If we want to add a 25 y/m super sprint event at nationals for ALL age groups, then that would be a different matter. However, whether or not it was the intention of the crafters of the measure, it can certainly be interpreted as 'dumbing down' swimming for us oldsters. I have heard numerous complaints from my swim colleagues about how slow the older swimmers are and how, perhaps, we should find a way to deal with it. I don't like that at all. We are in this for life, according to our slogans and we should be willing to embrace someone who swims a 50 at nationals even if it is 10 times slower than we can do it. If we don't like it, then why don't we join USA Swimming & see who compains about the slower swimmers?

And Mark, as for your needing to drop those horrible long distance 100s soon in favor of the 25s, you might consider adopting a training program that lasts more than two weeks a season. My guess is that you might even be able to complete a 200 FR with a little bit more training. Also, if you would follow the Smith Bros advice & shave down, you might not hold up those fast folks who want to have you finish so they can swim.

By the way, I'm ready to take up the challenge issued earlier in this thread to do a 1500 fly. Last spring I swam the 1000 fly at the COMSA state meet & might just use that opportunity to do the 1650 next spring. Anyone want to join me?

-- mel

Frank Thompson
September 1st, 2006, 02:37 PM
I have been to several meets that offer 25 sprints. In fact one of the biggest meets in the midwest (Great Lakes Zone Meet) the Indy Fall Classic offers this event every year. It does not count of course for Top Ten but everyone seems to enjoy it regardless of age. The only issue I have with this rule is making it specific with age. Either open it up to all or don't have it at all. The way its written now I think it will be voted down.

Peter Cruise
September 1st, 2006, 03:15 PM
Mel- Please have someone videotape your 1650 or 1500 (should be long-course for true grit) & share it with all of us forum regulars. That will be as close as we come to actually doing it.

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 1st, 2006, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by mbmg3282
Mel, while I enjoy insulting you on a regular basis, I don't think that was the intended purpose of this rule. I am not the backer of the rule, but as I understand it, the logic is as follows.

In some cases, our more senior athletes take longer to swim the 50. For these athletes, the race lasts beyond what would be consider a sprint. It is hard to consider a race that goes for over a minute a pure sprint. Thus, for these athletes, a 25 still gives them the opportunity to still sprint.

As I think the 100 is a distance race, I could see needed this long before I am 75.

People rarely realize when they have offended or discriminated against some one.

mbmg3282
September 1st, 2006, 07:27 PM
Mel,

I don't think the intention of offering 25's was to speed up people that are taking too long to swim their races. Rather it recognized that for some, a 20 - 40 second race (sprint distance race) no longer gets you to the wall. If we allow 25's, more athletes can complete the race and it still be a sprint.

However, I agree that we shouldn't single out certain age groups. I think Skip is right. If we do this, we allow it for everyone.

By the way, the intention was not to add this to the program at nationals right away, but rather recognize records and top 10 times for 25's.

breastroker
September 4th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Come on, there must be some other rules we can discuss.

The long distance committee has come up with one rule, Watches, that should be discussed.

SPMA sanctions as many LD events as any, we feel it is up to the event provider to tell the swimmers the water temperature. It is up to the provider to provide for safety.

We do not feel there is any reason at all to be klunked in the head with a watch!

So no on LD4 - 303.61.1

How come the LD committee doesn't come up with good ideas like suit optional?

David E. Morrill
September 4th, 2006, 03:44 PM
Back in the 'good 'ol days' when 5 year age increments/categories were determined, did they take into consideration that soooo many Masters would get involved?

Why not begin to consider 2 or 3 year categories...? It would certainly get a new wave of enthusiasts going...!

Championships and general competition would increase in population don't you think ?

Paul Smith
September 4th, 2006, 04:03 PM
Why 75+? Mel....not sure why you'd be offended.....I'm the one feeling left out here not having a chance to swim 25's!

I'd love to see the 25's offered in all age groups.

And bring in the 400/800 IM's and stroke events.

And although it wouldn't need to be anything plugged into our rules....I'd like to see more meet directors offering kicking events. I wasn't there, but still here people talk about Tim Garton winning a 50 kick held at Indy years back.

Open it up folks, create some more interesting things for people to get excited about!

Frank Thompson
September 19th, 2006, 04:28 PM
I hope everyone enjoyed the convention and I hope people enjoyed there stay here in Michigan. Here are some of things I will remember as doing double duty as being a delegate and a host of this convention.

Having a Long Course pool available for workouts in the dark. Having people get lost going to the pool when the bus didn't show up on Friday at 5:00 in the morning and having delegates bummed out and either going back to bed or trying to find a ride to the pool. The positive out of this is the pool was available for the whole week so early delegates could swim workouts before the big meeting crush.

Hospitality suite is the place to be after the banquet on Saturday. Sally Dillion (2006 Ransom Authur Award winner) is presiding over the annual festivities that we in USMS do annually at our convention. I am not going to tell you what it is because I will spoil the excitement that this entertainment creates. Also if any of you in the future come to this convention as a new delegate I will spoil this surprise that we have in store for you.

Exciting and new entrants include, besides new delegates, the 2006 USA Swimmer of the Year and the only man in history to win the NCAA Div I 100 and 200 Breastroke 4 straight years and that is Brenden Hansen. With him as a partner in crime in the 2006 USA Diving Athlete of the Year and the only man to win 4 straight NCAA Div I Diving titles and that is Troy Dumais. And last but not least entrant to the contest is the 2006 Master of Cermonies of the USAS banquet and that is Rowdy Gaines.

The excitment and noise level that was created from these guys in the contest was such that Security was called to break up this gathering. It was true the dB level was high but it toned down after the competition. The Security people were looking at the evidence of this contest and looked at us like we were crazy. Victor and myself tried to reason with them but were not having very good success.

Mark Gill, in the only way he knows how negotiated, reasoned, and convinced Security that if they broke up this gathering that people would be leaving and causing havok around the hotel. They didn't want that and left because they were called to another mishap of noise in the hotel. Everyone was quite and the party went on until 3:45 AM.

I will let other people talk about real convention business and other activities that may have happened on Saturday night or for that matter any of the nights during there stay.

mbmg3282
September 19th, 2006, 04:38 PM
Thanks to Skip and all the rest of the Michigan volunteers for being such great hosts. I ate most of my meals in hospitality thanks to the plentiful food and beverages that you provided. You set a high standard for the folks in CA to meet next year.

breastroker
September 19th, 2006, 08:42 PM
So many times in past conventions we would go the the hospitality suite during the day, only to find a sign saying closed.

But not in Dearborn. There was always good people manning the room and good food. They even thought of the plastic boxes to take a sandwich and chips to one of those noon meetings.

Kudos to EVERYONE involved.

Now Skip was certainly not one of the quietest people in the room, it was great competition. I managed to beat the greatest breaststroker of all times, and Brendan is just as nice as he appears on TV. I was seated next to his father every day at the 2004 Olympic Trials. His dad was most proud that he had raised such a great person, not just a great swimmer. The whole family has class.

All in all a good convention. Now back to work everyone:cool:

Frank Thompson
September 22nd, 2006, 01:41 PM
Thanks Mark and Wayne for your feedback. We had a trivia contest every morning except Friday when there was no bus service. The winner of the contest was Tom Bliss and the runner up was CJ Rushman. I will be getting with them in the future for there prizes.

And I agree with Wayne about Brendan Hansen. He came back to our hospitality suite with Troy Dumais at about 2:00 AM. They seemed to be having fun with the masters swimmers. Brendan said his next big competition will be the US Open in December and his future goal is to go 07 in 07, meaning 2:07 in 2007. With that people said he should try to go 58 in 08, meaning :58 in 2008. Those would be two excellent goals to shoot for in the future.

MegSmath
September 23rd, 2006, 08:45 PM
Skip, I have to say it was definitely a first for me, getting thrown out of the hospitality suite for being loud and rowdy! I left when the security people first showed up, and didn't know that negotiations allowed the party to continue. But at least I had the satisfaction of having won my heat in the, um, competition going on just before we were busted!

This was definitely the best-stocked, best-manned hospitality suite I've ever seen, and that is not an easy thing to do. When we had the rescheduled convention in Louisville in 2001, I did the hospitality shopping, and had my minivan completely full of snacks and supplies. I didn't expect it to last the entire convention, but I thought it would last longer than one day, which is all it did last! So I know what a logistical success you Michigan people had!

Meg