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EricRobinson
August 31st, 2006, 02:53 PM
I have been a competitive swimmer in Canada since 1961, and always respected the good work FINA has done to standardize the rules and regulations in competitive swimming. I now live in Costa Rica and participate as a masters swimmer.

Globally, masters swimming and aquatics is big money and FINA now recognizes this. In fact to monopolize all international competitive aquatics, FINA has now secretly given themselves the authority to punish international masters competitions held outside of the FINA umbrella, in that any federation(s) involved will be penalized and all of their athletes prevented from participating in future FINA sanctioned events, including the Olympics!

This was the case at the LatyCar Masters Championships in Sao Paulo, Brazil in 2005, when FINA dropped this bomb shell just before the competition was about to take place after two years of planning and promotion for the event. FINA's actions have effectively brought, through scare tactics, an end to a wonderful non-profit bi-annual fun international event since 1991, the LatyCar Masters Aquatics Championships covering Latin America and the Caribbean, an event originally founded by non-profit LatyCar due to the lack of enthusiasm from FINA in the first place!

Masters athletes just want to stay healthy and exercise, and enjoy the sport, and meet other masters competitors from around the world. I think it is immoral for FINA, a profit-making organization, to penalize all levels of an entire federation we are affiliated with if we compete in an international non-FINA sanctioned event. Why should the younger age group federation competitors all the way up to Olympic caliber competitors be penalized because of the actions of masters competitors within their federation? We are 'over the hill', and not involved in the intense level of competition of these younger competitors, however we do not wish to ever stand in their way. This is like apples and oranges.

Things are a bit different here in the LatyCar region than the USA, and international competitions are expensive to attend especially considering the low regional wages, and require a great deal of dedication to your sport. Yet every LatyCar competition since 1991 has had hundreds and even more than a thousand participants.

In a desperate yet bold attempt to counteract the needlessly greedy and immoral actions by FINA, the Sao Paulo Declaration in 2005 was overwhelmingly approved during the LatyCar event by the representatives of all participating countries, that the World Aquatic Masters Organization (WAMO) would be borne, and operate international events outside of FINA's control. For more info on the background of this, go to http://www.wamo.info and read about the history of the Sao Paulo Declaration. It is quite eye-opening to read about the apparent lies and deception of FINA in an attempt to monopolize international masters aquatics throughout the world, and thus all the money generated.

However, WAMO has had a difficult time getting off the ground because of the fear of unjust repercussions by FINA against our younger competitors, elite athletes, as well as those masters competitors who still wanted to attend the FINA sanctioned World Masters Aquatics Championships in Stanford this year and Perth in 2008.

If any people on the planet refuse to be bullied, and held at ransom, especially by the French, it is the Americans. FINA has tied your hands also, though you may not realize it. Our fun and exciting LatyCar Championships have been needlessly taken away from us without FINA providing an alternative event for the masters aquatics athletes in our region of the world. Americans participating in any international masters events without FINA sanctioning will be equally penalized by the immoral and greedy dictators at FINA. Just try it and see!

Would it be possible at the convention to discuss the monolopistic and economically motivated approach FINA has taken regarding international masters aquatics, and see if there is any consensus or agreement within the USMS to our plight here in Latin America and the Caribbean, and a workable solution? FINA didn't want to support masters aquatics in the LatyCar region in the beginning, now wants to take our great LatyCar away, while not providing an alternative event. FINA is like a spoiled child who has taken his ball home, so no one else can play.

FINA would begin to self-destruct under its own rules and greed if WAMO was adopted as a legitimate masters competition alternative by the USMS.

FINA's greed would also be apparent when the IOC discovers that FINA was preventing legitimate athletes from around the globe from competing, simply because of FINA's selfish attempt to keep control of all competitions and all the money ever generated through competitive international aquatics.

FINA is stepping beyond its legitimate and moral bounds, and is ruining masters aquatics on a global scale. USMS is the most powerful masters organization in the world, and would be an excellent ally to go up against the secretive FINA dictatorship.

geochuck
August 31st, 2006, 03:36 PM
Fina in control, the guys who can't control cheating judges in sports that require judges. What is the world coming to. Referees who cheat in sports like Basket Ball, Hockey and Soccer.

MPohlmann
August 31st, 2006, 04:51 PM
Are you confusing FINA with the International Olympic Committee (IOC)? Of course, they both have their problems.

FINA governs international aquatic sports only and yes all of those sports require some sort of judging. The N stands for Natation (French for swimming).

geochuck
August 31st, 2006, 05:18 PM
More than likely they are both crazy to deal with.

Rob Copeland
August 31st, 2006, 06:41 PM
Eric,

An interesting perspective…

And while I can’t speak about Masters Swimming in Costa Rica, I can assure you that FINA has NOT attempted to monopolize competitive Masters Aquatics in the USA. Every year there are hundreds of events (YMCA, State Games, Senior Games, local events, etc) that are not monopolized by FINA. And so far these have all been conducted without any of or members being threatened with expulsion or worse.

In the USA and through USMS we encourage these activities as additional avenues for our USMS members and for the population at large to participate in the greatest sport, swimming.

As for discussing Masters Swimming in the America’s at our convention… absolutely yes, our international committee will be talking about a number of international topics, this I’m sure will be raised. Our ASUA liaison will also be reporting on swimming in the Americas. And I’m sure there will be quite a few hallway conversations.

Rob Copeland
President – United States Masters Swimming

Matt S
August 31st, 2006, 08:40 PM
I seem to remember a similar discussion about this same meet a few months ago. Although I can't remember the specifics, I do recall that things did not appear to be as black and white as was first alleged.

Rob was being meticulously polite. He simply provided some counter-examples within the U.S. that indicate FINA is not pursuing some evil, monopolistic conspiracy here, and invited those who felt aggrieved to raise the issue for discussion at the USMS Convention. Please indulge me as I am less polite. I have to wonder what is the hidden aggenda behind continuing to bring up the same allegations of a rather unlikely conspiracy theory. No, pointing me to a one-sided web site which could say anything does not constitute proof.

My mind is open, but I don't find naked allegations all that persuasive.

Matt

LindsayNB
August 31st, 2006, 11:32 PM
Matt, for FINA's position on this see:

http://fina.org/master/masters_index.htm

My recollection is that in the end the dispute basically came down to a question of the meet name, once the organizers agreed to remove "All Americas" from the meet name everything settled out. Personally I do find the powers and penalties that FINA has granted itself wrt masters swimmers heavy-handed and excessive as exemplified by the above page. On the other hand do we want someone else organizing an alternate "World Masters Swimming Championship"?

I would assume that all the examples cited by Rob have sanctions from FINA affiliated bodies.

EricRobinson
September 1st, 2006, 12:22 AM
Facts are facts, we have lost our wonderful LatyCar out of fears from promised FINA repercussions. As I delve deeper into this, I am realizing that only participants and their federations in non-sanctioned international FINA events are penalized. As a result, there are no future international masters competitions planned in our huge region of some thirty six countries, and a catch basin of nearly a billion people. Even FINA isn't even making an effort to sanction an event, and prefer to just force us out of the water. How depressing, we need the USMS support to put FINA in its place.

michaelmoore
September 1st, 2006, 01:27 AM
Eric, an interesting polemic, but I thing you have a couple of your facts incorrect.

"Globally, masters swimming and aquatics is big money and FINA now recognizes this. "

Masters swimming in not big money for FINA. There is no TV revenue, there are no ad contracts that cover the Masters championships, the only FINA sponsors that has an agreement with FINA about Masters is Mikasa, where the Water Polo Balls have to be Mikasa (Mikasa suplies the balls).

FINA has now secretly given themselves the authority

And hid it in the FINA Handbook that is published and distributed to all the Federations and is sold to anyone who wants to purchase it. You have to give the gnomes of Switzerland credit for hiding it.

in 2005, when FINA dropped this bomb

Actually it was ASUA, the regional group that US Aquatic Sports belongs to.

it is immoral for FINA, a profit-making organization

FINA is a non-profit organization.

IIt is quite eye-opening to read about the lies and deception of FINA in an attempt to monopolize masters aquatics throughout the world, and thus all the money generated.

How is FINA getting all this money from Masters? Each federation pays FINA 200SF a year. The US pays the same amount as Lesotho. Where is this money being generated. I sure did not see it and I ran the XI FINA World Masters Championships.

to go up against the secretive FINA dictatorship.

I guess you dont want to hear about the FINA Congress where all federations have two votes. They will vote for the FINA Bureau, the president, the secretary, and the treasurer. Those people will chose the executive director.

As a result, there are no future international masters competitions planned in our huge region of some thirty six countries, and a catch basin of nearly a billion people.

I guess there are none if you dont include the ASUA Masters Championshps (The first one in Santo Domingo was not advertised very well and few attended. But on the other hand, I have a second place medal) and the South American Championships (last year held in Santiago, I think this year they will be held in Sao Paulo).

Even FINA isn't even making an effort to sanction an event,

It is not up to FINA, it is up to ASUA.

we need the USMS support to put FINA in its place.

Aint gonna happen. But I could be wrong.

EricRobinson
September 1st, 2006, 06:27 PM
Dear Mr.Moore,

It was an honor that you responded to my forum input. First of all let me congratulate you on the excellent results from your wonderfully orchestrated FINA World Masters Aquatic Championships at Stanford. My, and many others, hat goes off to you.

Regarding your response to my forum input, you certainly can skate circles around my lack of political experience in this. But one thing I do know is the difference between right and wrong, and Mr.Moore, I think are defending the wrong.

I can see I already made some mistakes, that FINA did sanction LatyCar until and including Barbados in 2003 (where I swam) and Sao Paulo in 2005, but then FINA/ASUA reneged on the sanctioning of Sao Paulo after LatyCar had the sanctioning documents in their hands, in a very untimely manner after registrations to compete were closed. Instead of FINA/ASUA trying to find a compromise and work with and build upon the past success of LatyCar, and the negotiations that were agreed upon between LatyCar and the late president of AUSA Jerry Olson, FINA/AUSA seemed to want it all. Their actions were for themselves and their accumulation of power, and not with heart or concern for the participants. They have left the All Americas/LatyCar and any federation or individual associated with LatyCar/All Americas, including age group children, elite athletes and masters competitors, in a state of disbelief, and scared to continue for fear of retribution in the form of international disqualification by the whims of FINA, shame on them!

Also, not many would believe a word you are saying when it comes to the future earning potential that will be generated by the four major aquatic sports, swimming (including open water), diving, water polo and synchronized, at all different age categories and skill levels, world championships, Olympics, etc. Please sir, you know that it’s a question of time and the roadwork is being prepared and that FINA is eyeing the $$$ AND it does charge for the bidding, I do believe that USMS had to fork out over $25-30,000 just to bid PLUS all first class airplane rides, five star hotels, meals, etc….!!

Sir, are you going to publish on the USMS website the entire AUDITED (independent like KPMG, etc.) balance sheet of the FINA Worlds @ Stanford Championships…? I don’t mean “just” USMS’s portion, I mean ALL of it…?

You corrected me that AUSA is not FINA but isn't ASUA the agent or representative of FINA, and isn't the president of ASUA a member of the FINA Bureau, please…! Why do you need to cloud the real issue with politics if you are defending what's right and moral?

Regardless, even when I said FINA isn't even making an effort to sanction an event, you replied that it is not up to FINA, it is up to ASUA.

You have not read the FINA Masters main page, it IS up to FINA… if FINA makes the rules THEN they are in control, not ASUA, unless of course FINA now delegates it to ASUA, however that particular president has an immense conflict of interest and obviously does NOT have athletes interest in mind simply having written that less that factual bombshell to all federations last year… heck, just ask the Canadians… the Mexicans… the Argentinians, the Brazilians, the…..

If the FINA Handbook with its intension to enforce all its rules you mention has been available for years, why did FINA wait until the last minute to completely destroy the 8th consecutive bi-annual All Americas/LatyCar Championships in Sao Paulo Brazil after the participant registration had already been closed. I'll tell you why, because your Dominican Republic event was advertised thoroughly, unlike you say, however it was up against a great event: the ALL AMERICAS/LatyCar event. After FINA saw only 135 competitors show up, they finally decided to do the EASIEST thing: ban LatyCar no-matter-what and claim it had no sanction (which it did have)… now is that a sportsmanlike thing to do…?

To my untrained eye, isn't FINA acting like a spoiled child walking home with his ball so no one else can play, what unsportsmanlike conduct from a respected sports authority and international judge of aquatics. Where is the integrity from an organization that should be emulating good and decent behavior to our younger swimmers, again, shame on FINA!

Mr.Moore, you jumped on my case when I mentioned what appeared to be a secretive FINA dictatorship saying that all federations have two votes, etc.

I was told you were present at the Congress at Stanford…???!?!
You call that ‘democracy’… motions put forth and approved ‘en block’ without any input… please sir, there were several happy attendees that were impressed with the quickness of such ‘democratic’ approvals, in fact most (if not ALL) of USMS’s motions were stomped on without even a chance for FINA to squeal in pain..!!

When I mentioned that there are no future international masters competitions planned in our huge region of some thirty six countries, and a catch basin of nearly a billion people to fill the All Americas/LatyCar void in 2007 created by FINA/AUSA, your response was that there was the (complete washout) Dominican Republic meet and the Santiago, Chile (??) event, both last year. The future isn't the same as the past. And I see no mention on the ASUA website about any future competition, Sao Paulo or elsewhere, that you weren't sure about.

I understand that LatyCar has, since 2000 been trying to make a strategic alliance with FINA for the Americas and that it ‘almost’ happened but the then president, Jerry Olson passed away and the new one has chosen the war-path route.

It’s easier and better for us all, for FINA to sit down with the experts: USMS and LatyCar and come up with a WINNING formula for everyone, not just FINA, and NOT a fight which just puts mud on us athletes…as we're not allowed in the pool to wash it off!! nor promotes forums such as this one!!

When I said we need the USMS support to put FINA in its place, your response was 'Aint gonna happen. But I could be wrong.'

Well… if USMS does come to the rescue –or arbitrate- with an example of their democratic approach and open congress and wanting to give an example of an excellent Masters “formula” including a balance of power… FABULOUS…
What can I say to you, Mr. Moore, don’t you see this benefit to all masters? How can you actually write “Aint gonna happen…” or has FINA ‘planning’ already been set into motion with you…digging their bunkers deep for the long haul?

The USMS formula is an excellent one to emulate, in fact possibly the best in the world, so applying the structure in the different scales according to need, would be super. Balance of power is necessary for good development, I’m sure you’ll agree with me.
I hope you consider it a compliment that we would like a USMS emulated system over a FINA threat system, which just keeps festering.

Respectfully yours

Eric Robinson
Canadian
Costa Rica masters swimmer
(and probably in deep do-do the next FINA event I compete in!)

mbmg3282
September 1st, 2006, 07:54 PM
It would appear that the ASUA Masters Technical Committee will be working towards hosting the Pan American Masters Championships every two years. There is a mention of this in the ASUA delegates report in the convention packet.

So, there will be future meets for the folks in the America's to participate in. Although it is not called LatyCar, it will serve the same purpose won't it? Hopefully, this will build on the fun and competition that was present in the LatyCar meets that you attended.

michaelmoore
September 2nd, 2006, 03:06 AM
FINA/ASUA reneged on the sanctioning of Sao Paulo after LatyCarIt is the BrazillianFederation that sanctions meets, not FINA or ASUA. The XI FINA World Masters Championships was sanctioned by Pacific Masters Swimming for United States Masters Swimming, which is United States Aquatic Sports National Governing Body for Masters swimming.

Also, not many would believe a word you are saying when it comes to the future earning potential that will be generated by the four major aquatic sports, swimming (including open water), diving, water polo and synchronized, Whether people believe me or not is not a concern of mine. I was giving you an informed opinion about where I the general profitability of Masters World Championships and its relationship to FINA in general. If you think it is so profitable, perhaps you can share your speculation.

do believe that USMS had to fork out over $25-30,000 just to bid PLUS all first class airplane rides, five star hotels, meals, etc It is no secret that USMS paid a bid fee of $25,000. However, if you count that the FINA Masters Technical Committee met in Palo Alto in November of last year and FINA paid for the transportation and the lodging, there goes most of the $25,000.

The Organizing Committee paid for the FINA Masters Technical Committee to come to Palo Alto, we did not pay for ANY first class tickets.

Sir, are you going to publish on the USMS website the entire AUDITED (independent like KPMG, etc.) balance sheet of the FINA Worlds @ Stanford Championships…? I don’t mean “just” USMS’s portion, I mean ALL of it…?

Thats a great idea, lets give KPMG $100,000 to audit a swim meet.

isn't the president of ASUA a member of the FINA Bureau,

Yes, he is. He was elected in Montreal at the last FINA Congress

please…! Why do you need to cloud the real issue with politics if you are defending what's right and moral?

I did not realize I was defending what is right and moral. I was just correcting your incorrect statements which leds to conclusions that do not follow if one has the facts.

You have not read the FINA Masters main page,

I stand corrected - you have more knowledge of what I have and have not read.

If the FINA Handbook with its intension to enforce all its rules , I did not realize the FINA handbook had intentions, let alone the handbook having intentions to enforce the rules.

why did FINA wait until the last minute to completely destroy the 8th consecutive bi-annual All Americas/LatyCar Championships in Sao Paulo Brazil after the participant registration had already been closed. Didnt the competition go on? Again it was not FINA it was ASUA.

Mr.Moore, you jumped on my case when I mentioned what appeared to be a secretive FINA dictatorship saying that all federations have two votes, etc. I did not realize I jumped on your case, you stated that FINA was a dictatorship. I pointed out that the FINA Bureau is elected. The model that you ascribed to FINA is in reality not true.

I was told you were present at the Congress at Stanford…???!?!

I was there for part of the Congress as an observer.

You call that ‘democracy’… motions put forth and approved ‘en block’ without any input… please sir, there were several happy attendees that were impressed with the quickness of such ‘democratic’ approvals,

Actually it reminded me of a USMS House of Delegates meeting. Most of the work takes place before the actual vote.

in fact most (if not ALL) of USMS’s motions were stomped on without even a chance for FINA to squeal in pain..!!

Why would FINA squeal in pain? Many times you have to do your work ahead of time to get your rules passed. This is not unusual. There has to be the spade work done.

When I said we need the USMS support to put FINA in its place, If this is not the perfect formula for getting things done. USMS which is a very small part of USAS going to put FINA in its place. You have the right form for working in a democracy. US has one member on the FINA bureau of 22 and we are going to tell them how to precede. I dont think that Dale Neuburger is going to go that route. To succeed at the Bureau level one has to have great diplomatic skills and to go there with the idea of putting people in their place is not going to work - you can trust me on that.

Well… if USMS does come to the rescue –or arbitrate- with an example of their democratic approach and open congress and wanting to give an example of an excellent Masters “formula” including a balance of power… FABULOUS…
What can I say to you, Mr. Moore, don’t you see this benefit to all masters?

After reading this many times. I have no idea of where you are going with this.

How can you actually write “Aint gonna happen…” or has FINA ‘planning’ already been set into motion with you…digging their bunkers deep for the long haul?

You said that USMS should put FINA in its place, that is not going to happen.

Aroma Martorell
September 2nd, 2006, 03:33 PM
I was a swimmer in Uruguay since 1970 to 1977 ,and as a athlete I participated in some international championships (south America and pan American Championships in the seventh ) and I always respected the good work FINA has done too.

In 1983 I move with my family to Brazil and in 1993 begun to participate in the masters swimmers championships as a swimmer, and later as volunteer work:

- Coordinator of Club Paineiras do Morumby SP Masters Team (1994)

- Masters Swimming Director for Clube Paineiras do Morumby SP (1995-1997) - Southamerican champions in 1997.

- Coordinator of 4x1-Fiat Milano Team (since 1998) - Paulista and Brazilian champions in 1998, 1999, 2000 &2001

- Vice-president of ABMN (1999-2000)

- President of the APMN Council (1999-2000 and 2001-2004)

- Coordinator of Water Polo clinics for women, category 83-85 (2000-2001)

- Editor of the National Masters Swimming Newspaper 2000-2006

-Director of the master department of the FAP 2004-2006

-Vice president of the APMN -2005-2009

_Director of the All Americas Latycar 2005 Sao Paulo Brasil



I have been involve in the organization of championships in the state of Sao Paulo, the largest state of Brazil since 1997 we always work hard to offer the highest standards ,well run and planed events in respect to the swimmers , working with our federation and Fina rules .


In our master World the most important is healthy , exercises , enjoy what we are doing , meet other masters friends competitors from around the world and have the freedom to participate and decided what championship we want to attend .



The first international meeting in the region of Latin America, south America and Caribe was the LatyCar held in 1991 in Venezuela, with FINA's sanctioning, and then after the first , eight successful bi-annual championships all over Latin America and the Caribbean, so Latycar was very well known to FINA, and even linked to FINA from the LatyCar website.



All the eight latycar championships was always sancionated by de federations of the countries who held the event



Since 1991 Latycar promoted and developed the masters aquatics in our region * swimming, *water polo,* OW,* diving * synchronic *postal and it has been a reference in championships organization in south America , improve other countries and masters association to work hard trying to emulate Latycar , and with this we all win , because this is a fair competition , the swimmer will attend the best .

For us international championships are very expensive to attend and require a great effort to participate, so we want the same effort for the championship organizers, promotion and dedication, and the only one who attends our expectative was always the LatyCar a non-profit organization, masters working for masters.

The ALL Americas LatyCar 2005 was the first championships in South America, Latin America and caribe who attend the five aquatics master and ´postal event and had more than a thousand of participants.




Mr. Moore said to Mr Eric that we have the South America championship organized by the Fina -consanat , but this championship is only for swimmers who lives in south America.
Swimmers who lives in Centro America and Caribe couldn´t attend this championship.
This south america championship CONSANAT –fina ,only have swimming and OW , no polo no diving, no syncro , no postal events and the pan American ASUA –Fina was only for swimmers .
This championships are not very well planned , we only have information one or two months before it , and we always have a lot to improvise :NO changing rooms -lookers rooms , bathrooms or water because the swimming pool was t ready for the event , it was under construction (2004-Peru )or we did ´t have a warm up pool and water at the looker-rooms (colombia2003) .



If FINA took away successful LatyCar and didn't replace it with any future international events what is gona happened with thousand of people from South America, Caribe, Latin America?




Latycar has the highest standards and must continue for many reasons, if any because it is a respectful and well run and planned event and always respected FINA member federations ,and had their support and permission and officials, including latycar # 5 in Hall of Fame pools.

Masters is all about friendship, fitness and fair competition, let's make sure that FINA and its family follow their own standard and that the most powerful Masters organization in the world -USMS- comes to the help of all the Americas Masters .
We can´t accept memorandums from FINA that were not true, such as last years for the Sao Paulo latycar.
USMS please stand hard and help us . We need it.

michaelmoore
September 2nd, 2006, 04:16 PM
Mr. Moore said to Mr Eric that we have the South America championship organized by the Fina -consanat , but this championship is only for swimmers who lives in south America.
Swimmers who lives in Centro America and Caribe couldn´t attend this championship.

I can only speak to one, the championships that were held in Santiago, Chile of November/December last year. I attended. I swam and won a silver medal (on the back it says VII Campeonato Sudamericano Natacion Master Santiago- Chile - 2005) . There was a warm up pool, there were also changing rooms. I had a great time down there - everyone was friendly and the competition was good.

The team I swim for was recognized in the opening ceremony. It is my understanding that only South American teams would be eligible for team awards.

I was told that the 2004 championships, norte americanos could swim, but their team could not score points.

I do not think the championships were organized by FINA, I thought there were organized by Consanat. I did not see any FINA committee people there.

Matt S
September 2nd, 2006, 04:50 PM
If I may apply a small period on the end of this exchange, it seems to me that Mr. Moore has thoroughly taken Mr. Robinson to the woodshed concerning his mistatements of fact and overly emotional language. I'm not knowledgable enough about all the specific facts to know if Mr. Robinson has a legitimate beef with how FINA handled the last Latycar meet. I think it is entirely possible he may. However, he completely lost me, and I suspect several others, with his over the top villification of FINA.

Eric, Masters swimming is a volunteer effort. The only model out there is what you and your friends have correctly described as masters serving other masters. If there is money in masters swimming, it's because you and me put it there, and just enough to have our fun little meets without anyone getting rich (or getting paid much, if anything at all, for all the volunteer hours). We do not serve our common cause well by trying to stir up (TWICE!) needless controversy with excessive rhetoric that unfairly attacks the good faith efforts of our fellow masters and volunteers. Please try to stick the core of your concerns without the character assassination.

Matt S

Aroma Martorell
September 2nd, 2006, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by michaelmoore [/i]
FINA/ASUA reneged on the sanctioning of Sao Paulo after LatyCar[/i]It is the BrazillianFederation that sanctions meets, not FINA or ASUA. The XI FINA World Masters Championships was sanctioned by Pacific Masters Swimming for United States Masters Swimming, which is United States Aquatic Sports National Governing Body for Masters swimming.

Mr. Moore, you are confuse about what happened in Sao Paulo-All Americas LatyCar, 2005.

The Brazilian federation sanction the event All Americas LatyCar 2005; you can see those letters in the web site www.latycar.org

We have the sanction of the a) APMN –Assosiaçao Paulista master de nataçao from Sao Paulo, legally recognized by the ABMN , FAP and CBDA, the sanction of the b) ABMN –Assosiação Brasileira Masters de Nataçao –accredited national master ruling body who depends on the CBDA, body federation in Brazil, and we also have the sanction of the3) FAP body federation in Sao Paulo who depends on the CBDA

On month before the event , september /05 Mr. Orban Mendoza ASUA –FINA send an e-mail to all the federation in all our American continent saying that we don’t have the sanctions of our swimming federation and also said that the latycar is a company ..

Why he did this?... I don´t know .. do you?...

There are still people supporting this UN trust..

Saudações

Rob Copeland
September 2nd, 2006, 05:57 PM
Eric, Aroma, David, et.al.

I don’t think anyone will disagree that there were some very unfortunate circumstances surrounding the ALL Americas LatyCar 2005. However, instead of fixating on past events, I would encourage all of us to look to the future to determine what we can do moving forward to enhance Masters Swimming.



Originally posted by Aroma Martorell
If FINA took away successful LatyCar and didn't replace it with any future international events what is gona happened with thousand of people from South America, Caribe, Latin America?

So how can USMS help?

Chris Smith
September 3rd, 2006, 10:33 PM
A lot of passion in this discussion, perhaps a passion we all share for swimming.

I have been aware of LatyCar since the early nineties, even though I now live in Canada, my roots are in the Caribbean and Atlantic Islands, primarily Bermuda and Barbados. Perhaps I have a different perspective on this situation, I hope it is useful to the discussion.

In the islands we have very small aquatic organizations, even smaller Masters. The national aquatic organizations have great difficulty servicing their age group clubs and national team, they have little time or resources to assist Masters. We were aware that the situation in most Latin American countries was similar through the eighties.

We learnt of the work that David Morrell was doing in Venezuela and subsequently throughout Latin America to promote Masters. David, I believe, has dual US and Venezuelan citizenship and had learnt about USMS and their programs while in the US. He was promoting these programs in Latin America. It is fair to say that no one else really was, the national aquatic organizations did not have the interest or capacity to develop Masters.

David's initiave led to the formation of LatyCar, an informal association of national Masters organizations in Latin America and the Caribbean to promote Masters aquatics. Since no one seemed interested in hosting a major Masters Aquatic competition, David agreed to do this. LatyCar has sponsored eight Championships since 1991, which David organized in Caracas. These have been the most "Masters friendly" competitions I have ever attended, fun and friendship are the most important factor. There were several inovations introduced.

From the islands point of view these LatyCar Championships were a catalyst for developing their Masters programs. This was the important competition that they worked towards, built their organizations on. There were people who pushed this, Duncan Newby in Bermuda, Angus Edgehill in Barbados and Joey Koffman in Trinidad and Tobago, to name a few, however, without LatyCar this would have been a most difficult task. I am told that the situation in many Latin American countries was similar.

LatyCar, mostly David, promoted the Championships and assisted the hosts in running them. The profits from the meet went to enhance all swimming programs in the host country. For example in Costa Rica in 2001 the profits all went to purchase that countries first electronic timing system, for use by all swimmers.

All LatyCar Championships were run under all FINA rules and with all appropriate sanctions as dictated by their national aquatic federation. They included other aquatic sports.

In 2001 David Morrell contacted Jerry Olson, then President of ASUA about the possibility of combining LatyCar with ASUA and holding an All Americas or Pan American Masters Championships. Certain terms were agreed to, unfortunately discussions terminated with Mr. Olson's sudden death. All attempts to comunicate with ASUA since then have failed.

LatyCar had considerable expertise in running major Championships and many contacts, all of which they were willing to share with ASUA. There were concerns expressed by a number of the LatyCar members, because of their prior experiences about several issues. They felt there should be an open and fair bidding system for the Championship. They felt that there should be an approprite selection process for the members of the ASUA Masters Committee, which would deal with Masters issues in the Americas and award the Championship. They felt that the members of the Committee should be selected by the national Masters organizations, with reasonable balance from the various regions of the Americas. They felt all members of the Committee should be Americas Masters. Jerry had no difficulties with these as far as we know.

In the last couple of years ASUA through its President have made several statements about LatyCar which were not factual. Two days after entries closed for the 2005 LatyCar Championships in Sao Paulo, ASUA issued a statement that was totally misleading and threatening. Although not fatal, it was certainly detrimental to those hosting and attending the Championships.

Unfortunately, FINA and a number of national aquatic organizations, even though they seemed to know the information was false, warned their masters not to attend.

This obviously generated a significant amount of discusion in Sao Paulo, which was still a most successful Championship. Two additional issues to the ones mentioned above were that Masters national bodies should be free to associate and communicate with each other for the promotion of our sport, and that international and national aquatic bodies should comply with the ethics that they required of their atheletes, clubs, etc. There was a general disatisfaction of the top down decision making process exemplified by ASUA. We are adults, we can think and we like to be involved in the decision making process in our sport. WAMO and the Sao Paulo Declaration evolved out of this, and that is what they say. Is FINA and ASUA saying that these are inappropriate statements?

A number of people have asked FINA and ASUA what it is that LatyCar did to initiate this action by ASUA's President. I am not aware of any response or any valid reasons given.

Rob has raised the fact that in the US you have the YMCA, State Games, Senior Games, etc operating outside of the FINA umbrella, this is not a problem, ASUA does not ban participants from competition for two years. In Canada last year we had the World Masters Games, over 10% of the swimmers were not registered Masters, other FINA Rules were ignored, ASUA said nothing. Organizations like IGLA, the Military games, the Police and Firemen Games, they are all outside the FINA umbrella, FINA and ASUA say nothing.

Why does LatyCar get this special treatment when their Championships are totally within the FINA umbrella?

In discussions at Stanford with members of the FINA Bureau, the FINA and ASUA Masters Technical Committees I think we all recognize we have a mess. How do we move forward? I know that several people are working behind the scenes to attempt to resolve it. I believe it will have to be a solution satisfactory to Americas Masters.

USMS is the largest and most independant Masters organization in the Americas. Is it possible that a solution can be developed at Convention that will lead to the eventual solution to this issue? I know that many hope so, some have suggestions. We are all committed to Masters aquatics, most of us are committed to all aspects of aquatics and have spent much of our life working for this cause. This is a most unfortunate situation, we need to correct it and move forward, all working together for the benifit of all aspects of our sport.

Understandably, USMS members accept USMS' status within US Aquatic Sports and the democratic control that they have over their organization as natural and normal. It isn't normal! Dale Neuburger stated several times at the FINA Masters Congress and on other occaisions at Stanford that US Aquatic Sports has five components. Masters is one of those components. Those of us from other countries hoped that our national aquatic federations were listening. This makes so much sence to those of us in other jurisdictions, but we dont have it. Masters in most cases are out of the loop as far as their national aquatic federations are concerned. We believe that the USMS/USAS model is one that would enhance Masters and most importantly enhance aquatics if it were adopted by other countries around the World.

Once we get LatyCar/ASUA sorted out, the International Committee should look at this!

Chris Smith

Sandi Rousseau
September 4th, 2006, 07:52 PM
It seems to me that our discussion needs to get back to the underlying problem that Eric points out. The actions FINA/ASUA is using are, in my opinion, discriminatory against LatyCar. I don’t see that the LatyCar organization is any different than World Masters Games, Fireman’s Games, IGLA champs, Senior Games, etc. All of these organizations provide opportunities for Masters athletes to compete and promote the same ‘swimming for life’ concept that I believe we all support.

It is factual that the threat of sanctions against participants in the 2006 LatyCar Championships in Sao Paulo, Brazil was made, was based on erroneous information about the championships not having the appropriate sanctions, and the threat did have some impact on participation (even though the monies had been collected). The threat was based on a FINA rule which does give FINA the authority to sanction a swimmer; however, I do not think that this rule was ever made with Masters athletes in mind. It seemed to be only a convenience to use it as ASUA wanted a tool to put some bite into the threat for sanctioning.

I have been told that the bureaucracy will be slow to change within FINA and ASUA, and I do not doubt this. An organization is only as effective as the individuals within that organization. An organization can also be only as destructive as the individuals within the organization. If an organization does not evaluate its own personnel and their actions, then shame on it for not being responsible.

During the time of Jerry Olson’s presidency of ASUA, a liaison was underway to draw the best from FINA/ASUA and LatyCar and merge these attributes together. With his untimely death, discussions stopped and have not resumed under the current leadership of ASUA despite attempts by LatyCar personnel.

I know that LatyCar has the best interests of Masters swimmers (as well as other aquatic Masters sports) at heart. While I was chair of the USMS Championship Committee for eight years, USMS shared with LatyCar and LatyCar borrowed/adopted many formats currently used within USMS championships. There was no reason to ‘reinvent the wheel’ and we are all in this sport to promote a healthy lifestyle and give Masters athletes opportunities to compete.

The USMS International Committee will indeed be discussing this topic at the upcoming convention, and I can’t believe that the USMS House of Delegates will not give a clear message to our leaders within USMS to assist LatyCar in some way. USMS is a leader in the Masters Swimming world, we can make a difference, and we should not tolerate threats to swimming organizations that promote the Masters swimming principles we all hold.

LatyCar can coexist with FINA/ASUA. LatyCar has offered to share its expertise in running Masters aquatic championship events in the Latin American/Caribbean/South America countries. Why would we not endorse that concept?

Sandi Rousseau
Past Chair USMS Championship Committee
Past Chair USMS International Committee

Gladys Quintero
September 5th, 2006, 12:42 AM
Hello All Masters
Reading through all the postings, I can confirm that the position assumed by Orban Mendoza (President of ASUA/UANA) last year has really started a division among masters swimmers. I think he has caused a lot of harm, because masters swimmers should be only one family and there should always exist friendship, sharing and togetherness; and this is not what we have now. This official does not show any understanding love or respect to the masters swimmers.

I would like to share a little bit about the history of the masters swimmers in Colombia. Masters Swimming exists in Colombia only because of LATYCAR, so what we are now we owe it to LATYCAR. And I think many other countries their masters swimming started or grew only because of LATYCAR. My question is why they are trying to kill LATYCAR, what wrong has LATYCAR done, that they have set a campaign to terminate this great tradition in masters swimming.

I think that all the officials who under the FINA or ASUA/UANA umbrella should assume a position in helping masters swimming, and one of the things they should do is help and promote for masters is to continue having LatyCar. That is one way in helping Master Swimming. But if they choose NOT to help Master Swimming then they keep fighting to terminate LatyCar.

LatyCar has very high standards when organizing the championships, and masters swimmers from Colombia has attended every single one since the first meet we went to, and that was in 1999 in Ft. Lauderdale. When LatyCar organizes the meets, they make sure registrations and announcement are sent with enough time, and the promotion of the event is a key part of the success of all the LatyCar and the All Americas championships.

I know that ASUA/UANA is trying to offer masters swimmers the chance to participate in international championships, but fine, so let ASUA/UANA do their meets, but also let LatyCar do their meets, and PLEASE USMS, you as an authority in masters swimming make sure FINA do not have the swimmers subject to threats of being sanctioned when participating in events organized by LatyCar. Because I understand in the USA you all have many other events that are not necessary organized by any of the FINA groups, like YMCA, State Games, Senior Games and many other local events. And the same thing happens internationally, where they have the IGLA, World Games and many others.

I also noticed you mentioned CONSANAT (Confederation of the South American Swimming), and just for your information, just a few facts to think about. What would you think of attending a meet where once the competitions started you did not have a pool for warming or cooling down? Where they would not have any locker rooms, no showers and the bathrooms were those “temporary type” of facilities? Or how about if the pool was filled out the day before, and the day of the first competition the water was so blurry it was difficult to see the walls? Also something else to think about, if you look into the date the announcement went out for the most of all the South American Championship, you all Masters swimmers would be surprised. And the same thing is happening with the next South American Championship, which will be in Colombia. Do you all know when the Meet Announcement “Convocatoria” was posted? And this championship is set for October 9, well it was only posted on the 20th of August, and so far, there is no information available about accommodations and all the other basic information. And the last meet ASUA organized was very similar to what the CONSANAT does. So, if they ask me, which are better organized the LatyCar meets or the ones run by CONSANAT, I will have to say that with no doubt LATYCAR. The same answer is obtain if we speak of its technical level.

Going against LATYCAR, is going against the progress and encouragement of masters swimming. LatyCar only has done great for Masters Swimming in the Americas. And if ASUA/UANA wants to help masters swimmers, the best solution would be to see LatyCar provide their experience and masters to masters way of working. And in that way we all masters swimmers will benefit and we all win.

It is also very strange to have FINA now not supporting LatyCar, when in previous years; they even had posted information about the success of the LatyCar events. So I ask myself, what is behind all this? It is clear that there is someone who has started to prevent LatyCar to continue offering the chance to swimmers to enjoy this great event. They should not stop an event that is successful, fun, one of the best-organized events in Latin America and the Caribbean.

Aroma Martorell
September 5th, 2006, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland



So how can USMS help? [/B]



Mr. Rob ,soon we will answer your question, and thank you very much for giving us a ray of hope.

clara e beron
September 5th, 2006, 08:48 PM
I would like to join others in acknowledging the positive impact that LATYCAR has had on Masters Swimming in Latin America.
I have been a Masters swimmer for ten years here in Florida. In 1999 a childhood friend from Colombia invited me to join her and other compatriots to represent Colombia and participate in an international meet that was going to take place in Ft. Lauderdale. We went, and that was the birth of our Colombian Masters Swim Team. It was a joyful occasion, not only because of the encounter with friends that hadn’t seen each other in years, but because the atmosphere of the meet was full of camaraderie and fun. The meet itself and the social events were very well organized, and we all made lots of new friends from other countries, who we look forward to meet again in the following LATYCAR meets.
For fifteen years LATYCAR has been offering meets in different countries in Latin America and they all have been great successes!! And FINA has had no problems with it.
Why kill something that is good, that encourages Masters Swimming by offering a great experience to newcomers and veterans alike and does a terrific job promoting the very essence of our sport? And why now?
Maybe the idea to eliminate LATYCAR began during the Barbados LATYCAR Meet in 2003. During a meeting at the end of the event, it was discussed that it would be a good idea to invite United States and Canada to future LATYCAR meets, and since the name LATYCAR (Latin America and Caribbean) did not include those two countries, the name All Americas was suggested. The next LATYCAR/All Americas was going to be held in Sao Paulo, Brazil. We were all excited, and every one started to make plans to attend. Well, Mr. Orban Mendoza, the ASUA/UANA president decided to offer the Pan American Swimming Championship in the Dominican Republic shortly before Sao Paulo. But, I am afraid that meet was a big fiasco, it was poorly attended and very badly organized, and it could never compete with the organization and high standards of the LATYCAR meets. So, therefore, LATYCAR would have to be eliminated in order to give the flailing Pan American meet a chance… and what better way to do it than to use the FINA muscle to threaten all the athletes who would participate in Sao Paulo with penalties and sanctions from FINA!! And so, the infamous communiqué comes through the internet just a few days after the registrations had been closed. Panic spread. Fortunately, we were all saved by the fantastic efforts and diplomacy of the Brazilian officials. And another LATYCAR meet came to pass and we all enjoyed the fact that we were swimmers and could swim and compete once again with friends in a very well organized and happy event.
If Mr. Mendoza wants to organize another Pan American Championship, it would be wonderful!! It can be held on even years and LATYCAR/All Americas on the odd years. That way, we, the swimmers of the American Continent can get together every year! There is room for both!
Isn’t’ there?

michaelmoore
September 6th, 2006, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by michaelmoore
FINA/ASUA reneged on the sanctioning of Sao Paulo after LatyCarIt is the BrazillianFederation that sanctions meets, not FINA or ASUA. . . .


Mr. Moore, you are confuse about what happened in Sao Paulo-All Americas LatyCar, 2005.

The Brazilian federation sanction the event All Americas LatyCar 2005;

What am I confused about? We said the same thing. It is the Brazillian Federation that sanctions meets. It is not FINA or ASUA that sanctions meets.

If there are to be successful Pan American Masters meets, then we are all going to have to work together. Personally, I do not think that it does any good to start ascribing intentions to people. There are few people who really know how much work it takes to run an international meet. Think of a large meet, then you have language problems, collecting the money (how are you going to collect the money and in what currency), getting the information out so that people can make plans to go to the meet. It takes a lot of people working together.

I dont know what good it is to write ". . .therefore, LATYCAR would have to be eliminated in order to give the flailing Pan American meet a chance. . ."; "It is clear that there is someone who has started to prevent LatyCar to continue offering the chance to swimmers to enjoy this great event. "

I think Masters should be trying to work within the system to shape the meets the way that makes sense for Masters swimmers. Sandi and Chris have interesting take on the future of hemispheric championships. I think we have to be positive about the future if we are to get a set of championships that we all can be proud of.

Just my $0.02

michael

LindsayNB
September 6th, 2006, 09:59 AM
From http://fina.org/master/masters_index.htm:

It shall be noted, that FINA neither has any relationship nor any intention to recognize the World Aquatics Masters Organization or any organization under the name of LATyCAR, which means that FINA will apply the above mentioned rules to any Member Federation, Member of a Member Federation or individual member thereof having any relationship with this organization.
It seems to me that a good first step in resolving these issues would be for FINA to reconsider the above position with respect to LATyCAR. It is difficult for people to approach the situation in a positive manner when they feel they are under threat.

If someone can explain the legitimate reasons for applying these rules to LATyCAR that would certainly help the rest of us understand FINA's position, thereby eliminating a lot of conjecture, and might lead to an amicable solution. If USMS could get an explanation then that would be a useful step forward.

breastroker
September 6th, 2006, 10:31 PM
WOW, what a year to be a member of the International Committee.

Having competed on most continents and having friends on all of them (except Antartica) this question deserves all our wisdom.

I am the most enthusiastic of people when it comes to swimming, but with age comes moderation.

This debate is just what we need BEFORE convention. Our committee was nearly disolved last year, before the best World Championship.

We can contribute as a committee with multiple voices, as sometimes it seems we are being spoken for. But our committee needs to continue to prove its worth, and there will not be a lot of time for open debate during our meetings.

So I urge everyone to get it out now, as much information and passion as you have, Now:p

Makes me wonder if I should have not turned that swim coaching job down in Costa Rica!

jerry clark
September 7th, 2006, 12:13 PM
I'm sure Sandi will lead the international committee through discussions about this, perhaps leading to some language to be considered by USMS for a suggestion to our liason to FINA and/or to Dale (or his successor) at USAS. I'm politically naive, but am confident that our board and the head of our federation will do what seems to be best with regard to this situation.

My main point however, is that no one should have to lose face in this matter. It therefore seems to me that it would be best if the key individuals would be willing to open their minds and agree to meet privately to work out a mutually acceptable solution. Hopeully both sides would come out as winners in the quest to keep Masters swimming healthy and growing throughout the western hemisphere.

Aroma Martorell
September 7th, 2006, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by michaelmoore [/i]
[FINA/ASUA reneged on the sanctioning of Sao Paulo after LatyCarIt is the BrazillianFederation that sanctions meets, not FINA or ASUA. . . .


Mr. Moore, you are confuse about what happened in Sao Paulo-All Americas LatyCar, 2005.

The Brazilian federation sanction the event All Americas LatyCar 2005;

--"What am I confused about? We said the same thing. It is the Brazillian Federation that sanctions meets. It is not FINA or ASUA that sanctions meets"

Within the structure of the aquatics world, you are technically correct, however it is FINA who dictates and mandates what each federation will do through its regional "allies" such as ASUA. FINA, through ASUA/UANA's Mendoza axed LatyCar without any explanation, justified by claiming falsely that ALL AMERICAS LatyCar had no sanctions, when in fact it had 3 two long years before the event!!


--"If there are to be successful Pan American Masters meets, then we are all going to have to work together"

We are elated and glad that we then agree on what LatyCar has done since 1991 by promoting the regional Masters aquatics program, what's more, having contacted ASUA's Jerry Olson (FINA) in 2001 and begun talks for a strategic alliance between ASUA-LatyCar... doing exactly what you have said: "... then we are all going to have to work together" !!

--"Personally, I do not think that it does any good to start ascribing intentions to people. There are few people who really know how much work it takes to run an international meet. Think of a large meet, then you have language problems, collecting the money (how are you going to collect the money and in what currency), getting the information out so that people can make plans to go to the meet. It takes a lot of people working together."

We are experts at this, you have done it recently at the XI Fina -máster Championship and I have to said to you “PARABENS ! ..it was wonderfull, we have done it 8 times... and yes with all the sports! Yes, we can assure you that between USMS and LatyCar, the experience not only in championships but in structuring, the Masters Committee for the Americas has a phenomenal potential.

However, as you so rightly point out, "... I do not think that it does any good to start ascribing intentions to people." and thus the attackers must stand down in order to charge ahead with a solid "Masters for Masters" program and a rotating Masters Committee. No one should be permanent, it's not healthy .


--"I dont know what good it is to write ". . .therefore, LATYCAR would have to be eliminated in order to give the flailing Pan American meet a chance. . ."; "It is clear that there is someone who has started to prevent LatyCar to continue offering the chance to swimmers to enjoy this great event. "

We cannot control what the many LatyCar participants think and opine... they arrive at these opinions solely on the basis of the "black e-mail" that FINA's Orban Mendoza circulated to all AMERICAS federations last year prior to the meet PLUS, more anti LatyCar material promoted through the CONSANAT Congress in Colombia earlier this year in which they publicly denounced LatyCar as enemy # 1 and any other organization that would dare put on an event for Masters in any country. They actually named LatyCar (point 8.2) and is so noted in the Congress Act that is drawn up as minutes report. This is shamefull however it does give every Master "out there" a very clear picture of duress in action and, as you so rightly point out, must NOT continue. LatyCar supports this precept.


--"I think Masters should be trying to work within the system to shape the meets the way that makes sense for Masters swimmers. "

In every single one of its' eight (8) Championships, LatyCar has done EXACTLY that... THAT is why FINA's grand injustice must NOT go unnoticed, there needs to be a balance of power in order to create and foment harmony: everyone's opinions must be heard, respected and the majority rule, not just a small conclave...
"... your intentions must be truthful, honest and teach them likewise..."


--"Sandi and Chris have interesting take on the future of hemispheric championships. I think we have to be positive about the future if we are to get a set of championships that we all can be proud of."

We herewith attach a ppt that sums up exactly every point that you have so accurately pointed to, we welcome you to the ranks of this grand Americas Masters project! We have many more and dated way before 2004 also, just let us know if you'd like to view them.

Michael, everything we have said is true. LatyCar's Constitution -actually- could easily have had, printed and centered at the very top of its first page AMDG because that's where the root started.

Regards,
Dra. Aroma Martorell
(assisted by David Morrill)

David E. Morrill
September 7th, 2006, 11:24 PM
The presentation (attachment) that Aroma refers to above is actually supposed to be this one herewith. The one she attached with her contribution above is an offer to FINA last year as a result of their claiming LatyCar did not have a sanction.

Darn... the presentation is too large, it's powerpoint and I have a zipped file at 470KB, if you'd like to receive it, pls. send me an e-mail with "Summit" written on the subject line, I will send it to you with no personal comments AND erase your address. It's a presentation which outlines all of Michaels Moore's suggested future Americas Masters drive.

Regards,
David

EricRobinson
September 8th, 2006, 01:56 PM
There seems to be a tremendous amount of momentum and support in favour of LatyCar regarding the injustices it has received over the last eleven months. Only the hardline FINA people are in opposition and it would seem, on a political agenda. Putting FINA/ASUA etc. 'in their place', was, in my opinion, going easy on them. I could have come up with something far more crude.

I hope all participants in the convention will not allow FINA/ASUA to pass the buck by blaming other affiliates, the Brazilian Federation, etc. as they have already demonstrated. They were trying to enforce FINA's rules, and the buck stops there!

FINA et.al are both legally and, more importantly, morally in the wrong. As representatives of an iconic overseeing association that is supposed to judge sportsmanship and fair play of others, they, above anyone, need to emulate these qualities as well. They made a huge tactical error in trying to destroy innocent and successful LatyCar, and should be reprimanded for doing so in the eyes of all the onlooking young age groupers, the elite athletes and masters competitors, that no one in aquatic sports is above moral and honest behavior, especially at the top.

Rob Copeland
September 8th, 2006, 04:28 PM
The leadership of USMS has ALWAYS strongly supported Masters Swimming in the USA, the Americas and the world.

As for your “hope all participants in the convention will not allow FINA/ASUA to pass the buck”, you misunderstand the nature and purpose of the United States Masters Swimming Annual Meeting. We are not a court of arbitration. Our primary objective is to set and validate our strategic and tactical programs in support of our mission and goals.

My objective is to focus our committees and House of Delegates on forward looking planning. And while we can learn from the past we can’t change it. Our success as an organization and as a sport hinges on our ability to be agents of change in developing and enhancing member programs and services.

michaelmoore
September 8th, 2006, 11:18 PM
Eric it is difficult to take you seriously.
There seems to be a tremendous amount of momentum and support in favour of LatyCar regarding the injustices it has received over the last eleven months. OK, but I have not seen much evidence of it. There are a few people who have been very vocal, but it is difficult to see if that really translates into a groundswell of support.

Only the hardline FINA people are in opposition why do you say that? Who are the FINA people. I have not seen any FINA person weigh in on this.

it would seem, on a political agenda. the whole world is political. You have a political agenda.

I hope all participants in the convention will not allow FINA/ASUA to pass the buck by blaming other affiliates, the Brazilian Federation, etc. as they have already demonstrated. They were trying to enforce FINA's rules,

My guess is that FINA as an orgaization will not be there. Dale Neuburger will be there as head of USAS. I would guess that if you belong to an organization that you do have the responsibility to enforce its rules.

FINA et.al are both legally . . . in the wrong Where were they legally in the wrong? Which laws have been broken.

FINA et.al are both . . . morally in the wrong Where are they morally wrong? Whenever I see someone saying they were morally wrong, unless it refers directly to the 10 commandments, I tend to think it as the last arguement when you dont have facts on your side.

I still have not seen here what anyone wants USMS to do about this except "to put FINA in their place" and I do not know what that means. USMS is not about to censure FINA and even if USMS did, it would not get out of USAS.

I agree with Rob Copeland, we are not a court of arbitration, our committees should focus on the future.

michael

EricRobinson
September 9th, 2006, 01:39 AM
------------------------------------------------------------
USMS Discussion Forums: Convention: FINA monopolizing Masters Swimming
------------------------------------------------------------

By michaelmoore:

Eric it is difficult to take you seriously.

{Eric} You're not the first!

There seems to be a tremendous amount of momentum and support in favour of LatyCar regarding the injustices it has received over the last eleven months. OK, but I have not seen much evidence of it. There are a few people who have been very vocal, but it is difficult to see if that really translates into a groundswell of support.

{Eric} Didn't you see the vote at the top of this forum???

Only the hardline FINA people are in opposition why do you say that? Who are the FINA people. I have not seen any FINA person weigh in on this.

{Eric}You are doing it again! FINA's rules were used as a threat, no matter what sub-division of FINA delivered the message.

it would seem, on a political agenda. the whole world is political. You have a political agenda.

{Eric} I don't have a political agenda, I just wanted to swim, which got me involved in this mess less than a month ago. From the Costa Rica point of view, there were no major events on the horizon for two years, and as I dug deeper, I discovered FINA was not playing fair.


I hope all participants in the convention will not allow FINA/ASUA to pass the buck by blaming other affiliates, the Brazilian Federation, etc. as they have already demonstrated. They were trying to enforce FINA's rules,

My guess is that FINA as an orgaization will not be there. Dale Neuburger will be there as head of USAS. I would guess that if you belong to an organization that you do have the responsibility to enforce its rules.

{Eric} I believe that's what I have been trying to say, others were just following FINA's rules and direction. FINA is where our efforts need to be directed.

FINA et.al are both legally . . . in the wrong Where were they legally in the wrong? Which laws have been broken.

{Eric} I may be wrong and wouldn't want to get into it, but I would think LatyCar has a very strong case for damages against FINA, et.al if they wanted to pursue it.

FINA et.al are both . . . morally in the wrong Where are they morally wrong? Whenever I see someone saying they were morally wrong, unless it refers directly to the 10 commandments, I tend to think it as the last arguement when you dont have facts on your side.

{Eric} I think we should leave religion out of this. Let's just stick to morals and ethics, even though you are uncomfortable with the thought.

I still have not seen here what anyone wants USMS to do about this except "to put FINA in their place" and I do not know what that means. USMS is not about to censure FINA and even if USMS did, it would not get out of USAS.

{Eric} I'm talking about the Watergate of aquatic sports, or haven't you been listening. I hope USMS works toward a balance of power at the top that may prevent future abuse and would make this whole masters thing a lot healthier. A good way to repair damages may start with an apology to the organizers and competitors of LatyCar in Sao Paulo last year from FINA (or whoever you want to pass the buck to) for their mistake, and a bi-law in the FINA constitution to either sanction LatyCar in the future, or atleast a promise to never threaten interference with federations involved in LatyCar, or any other similar organization.

I agree with Rob Copeland, we are not a court of arbitration, our committees should focus on the future.

{Eric} I am focusing on the future, to make sure the past doesn't happen again.

David E. Morrill
September 11th, 2006, 01:23 PM
9/11

September 2005

LatyCar receives a death defying blow. Understandably and in justifiable defense, during October’s ALL AMERICAS LatyCar meet, Masters from 20+ countries collectively subscribe to the Declaration of Sao Paulo, http://www.wamo.info

A lot to lose – ooddles to gain…

Eric;

Canadian living in Costa Rica! Yes, your passion and distrust exemplify most Masters not only in Latin America but in Canada and many other parts of the world. Thank you for bringing these feelings of frustration to the forefront again, there is nothing worse than apathy.
By the way, I think Wayne was hinting for a Masters Coaching Clinic in exchange for complimentary nights at your hotel…!!! Go Costa Rica…!!

George;

Control over “legal: cheating” … ahhh yes, you are so right to say “… crazy to deal with…” but then again, how do we negotiate and correct that? By dealing directly with it but on equal ground: some strong bodies only understand and measure their actions if sitting across an equally strong body.

Mary;

Hopefully this LatyCar issue, (Masters in general issue) should demonstartate the importance of the International Committee’s existence: export USMS event expertise, committee objectives, organizational structure and the fact that the “grass roots” majority rule over just a few with balance of opinions, balance of power.

Rob;

Your call of challenge to bring innovation to your Convention and to “Think outside the pool”, wow! Prophetic. What better issue than one that champions Masters interests in general…?! You know the backdrop to LatyCar’s attempted death blow…
You are correct when you point out that other organizations such as YMCA, Gay Games, Senior events, Police, Firemen, etc. have (in the USA) liberty of action. However please be advised that the March 2006 Minutes (item 8.2) of the CONSANAT (South American ASUA-FINA ‘arm’) Congress held in Colombia, contain a declaration of proactive ”no support” not only to LatyCar but to any outside organization, other than a FINA federation, for the promotion and development of any Masters aquatic sporting event. This provides credence to the precept that the noose is tightning. We have a copy if you’d like to read it.

Matt;

There is no hidden agenda on LatyCar’s side, since the onset we have openly spoken out about the whole issue, that’s in fact why you’re reading this! We intend no character assasination, however we expect the same of our detractors, no intentions of deathly harm.

Lindsay;

LatyCar was “deleted” from the meet title, not ALL AMERICAS, LatyCar was the intended recipient, however the participants responded by publishing the Sao Paulo Declaration.
Another group running a Short Course Worlds? Competition has always driven to better products and services. Who ran Worlds in NZ…? Who ran Riccione, Stanford…? You guessed it, not FINA but the local Masters… ! FINA only lent it’s acronym.
You are so correct when you write that FINA should reconsider its position regarding LatyCar !

Mark;

You are so correct to point out that LatyCar meets “were” fun filled, competetive and constructive… so… more reason to keep building on LatyCar…! Jerry Olson, past president of ASUA (FINA arm in Americas) was about to sign a Strategic Alliance with LatyCar (2002), unfortunately he passed away.

Michael;

Yes, it’s exactly that: right vs. wrong. No one is going to put FINA in “its place” however let’s help place LatyCar and all world Masters in their rightfull place! We ARE Masters after all !

Aroma;

All of our hats off to you… you put on the best of all aquatics Masters championships ever in the history of Masters south of the Rio Grande and against your topmost Confederation officials wishes and FINA ‘offers’.
Your honesty and correctness in dealing with your officials is known to all of your personal Masters friends and supporters in not only Brazil but Argentina and your home country Uruguay.
We’re only sorry that when the dust settled you were “asked” to resign from your Masters directorship in the Sao Paulo Federation.
With a little help from our friends, better times will follow.

Chris;

Yes, once again you are so correct: USMS/USAS is the model that must be exported to other federations in the Americas… Jerry Olson and LatyCar many times spoke of that concept and in fact he was doing his best to accomplish just that.
And, what better and most fitting objective and goal for the USMS International Committee!

Sandi;

Yes, LatyCar provided opportunities to Masters in all aquatic sports, in fact LatyCar in Sao Paulo had the largest Americas international polo tournament ever prior to Stanford ! And LatyCar’s “Margarita Pre-Worlds Polo Tournament” scheduled for past March already had over 24 teams from all over the world in line for registration! Yes, we should all continue with that in mind: the interest of Masters as sole objective at heart.
And, yes, we agree that USMS as world leader should assist and “… make the difference in upholding…” fair play not only inside pools but outside (as Rob aptly challenges).
Yes, we believe you are correct: USMS endorsing full cooperation is fundamental.

Gladys;

Yes, LatyCar has emulated USMS from the beginning and insisted on the highest possible championship standards and is presently the benchmark and example to all other regional events.

Clara;

On target! LatyCar has helped promote the development and promotion of aquatic Masters as exciting sport in Colombia… also in Costa Rica, also in Argentina, also in Ecuador, also in Venezuela, also in Barbados, in Panama, Uruguay, Trinidad, Bermuda, AND in…

Wayne;

Yes what an extraordinary year to be on the International Committee! Long live the I.C. the very Committee that helped be best World Masters Championship to date… the very Committee that can help provide international balance of thought, balance of opinions, balance in communications, balance all over… there’s always two sides of a coin, of a story, and this I.C. will provide the proper arena and example for this to continue under other roofs.

Jerry;

Your confidence in your Board is exactly what LatyCar is hoping and betting on. Yes private meetings to bring mutually acceptable solutions is what we have strived for since we began talks with Jerry Olson and after his untimely death but we have not succeeded.
Yes, USMS is necessary to exemplify its democratic process and spirit in order to obtain a win-win-win solution, and yes, the athletes will be the winners.

Rob;

Again you are correct in expressing that ”we cannot change the past…” however we can learn from it and help in shaping a better future.
Eric wrote to Michael: “I am focusing on the future, to make sure the past doesn’t happen again”

At this point in time, LatyCar represents all Masters interests not from the recent past alone but from the very distant past; also present and future.

Only through a FINA recognized –fearless -very healthy –democratic –strong and respected body- will these interests serve a Masters for Masters program.

Harmony can only be achieved by wise men, otherwise only through a balance of power. Masters aquatics need that balance.

Only USMS can help provide that balance, so in answer to your question as to “… what can USMS do to help <LatyCar>…?”

Lift the mantle of fear that others have had, be the leaders that you are. “Help” and broker, for LatyCar Masters, and Masters in general, to obtain fair respectfull representation (“voice and vote”) within a Masters for Masters environment in order to achieve harmony.

What an opportunity! World Masters will be the beneficiaries of this USMS action. Ooddles to gain.

Thanx, gracias, obrigado… to each of you who have contributed to the forum and the poll voting.

David E. Morrill
Latycar
President, 2005-2007

David E. Morrill
April 22nd, 2007, 12:35 PM
Goodness... here I sit in tropical weather, beautiful greenery and blue skies in the mountains surrounding Caracas WONDERING... where did all those good intentions that president Rob offered before and during the Convention to HELP good-ol-American justice prevail over an awful written statement published ASUA ...?

I also sit here wondering why FINA totally disregarded USMS's Convention mandate/request to take it's misconceived report on LatyCar...

Then I think... where is the famous panamerican meet which LatyCar DID hold (all five sports + postals) ? What has happened to the Southamerican meet that is still apparently not firm on dates and promised, now, to Venezuela... and USMS offering it's long course to LatyCar participants...

What a mess for Masters south of the Rio Grande... oh, and Canada... at least Canada Masters have held fast to the proposition that LatyCar should continue because of it's respectfull and fantastic history since 1991.

USMS - you still have the key... our friend Dale N (FINA Vice-Prez) also promised to stand forward for Masters justice and good faith... have you -USMS- reminded him...?

Yes Rob, we're still hoping for you to make true your promise to help, there's still time...

Regards to all of you. David

geochuck
April 22nd, 2007, 12:59 PM
FINA a stupid way of thinking for sure they are god they think - Canada had to make a stand with the IHF years ago and it finaly had to change to the way Canada thought.

EricRobinson
April 30th, 2007, 01:33 AM
Where does FINA get the right to threaten and prevent not only masters aquatic athletes from participating in future FINA sanctioned events if they participate in LatyCar, but in doing so, threaten whole swimming federations, including age groupers and elite international competitors, the athletes who really matter? FINA should be setting an example of sportsmanship and fair play with their own policies, but are doing just the opposite.

Most of us Master's aquatic athletes just want to swim, stay fit, and enjoy the comradary. Showing class that FINA could learn from, the last thing we want to do is chance impeding age groupers and elite athletes, so the LatyCar Championships for 2007 was effectively eliminated.

LatyCar was successful and fun, but it appears FINA became jealous (or scared) when their parallel event bombed, so they selectively decided to take their Latin American and Caribbean ball and go home, leaving us without our bi-annual event. Where is FINA's 2007 event that is to replace the successful LatyCar Championships? Not there! FINA should be ashamed of their behavior.

I don't know the politics behind what is happening, I'm a swimmer, not an organizer or politician, but I really wonder, do the Olympic people know about the highhanded, selfish and completely unreasonable treatment FINA is giving some selected aquatic federations in order to completely monopolize all levels and ages of amateur aquatics. If the Olympic people do, and permit it to continue, then many of us will lose a considerable amount of respect for amateur sport in general from the Olympics on down. I hope they don't let FINA's secret monopolistic agenda undermine the integrity and good name of the Olympics, but that's what is happening.

I, for one, will find it difficult to continue cherishing and holding in high esteem the espoused Olympic ideals, if they turn a blind eye on the LatyCar injustice by FINA.

David E. Morrill
June 19th, 2007, 10:59 PM
Why are the results of the FINA monopolizing events poll missing?

Results are historical evidence.

David E. Morrill
September 26th, 2007, 08:16 PM
Good luck to all of you attending the Convention.

I want to take this opportunity to remind all Masters Aquatic Athletes on our Americas continent, that the LATyCAR issue is still on the table... there were some good signs of harmonious intent during the recent Panamerican swim meet in PR... but time keeps ticking and we'd like to see some good ideas put forth...

We need to get a unified effort and sweeping LatyCar under the rug just won't "do"...!

USMS athletes: you can play an important role in a successfull resolution to this 2005 mess.

Regards to you all,
David

EricRobinson
September 27th, 2007, 12:24 AM
On the eve of the 2007 USMS Convention, I was wondering what was FINA's response to the request that the USMS officially made to them regarding considerations on the whole LatyCar issue (and the obvious injustices therein). Did they even make a response, or are they still avoiding it, and basically slapping the USMS in the face for questioning their activities?

A year after the last post by Gladys Quintero, it is deja vu all over again. Like last years fiascos by ASUA/UANA and CONSONAT that she mentioned, their once again last minute PanAms, I hear, had only 240 participants, of which about 200 were from PuertoRico and the Dominican Republic. Congratulations to the winners, but who did you beat?

LatyCar started Masters swimming in nearly all of Latin America and the Caribbean, and is the only organization to successfully organize Masters swimming events in our region, though jealous and selfish ASUA/UANA and CONSONAT have had numerous opportunities to prove otherwise.

In order to mitigate the damage already done, why can there not be some type of unification between ASUA/AUNA and LatyCar, so that LatyCar gets fair recognition for all it has done for Masters Aquatic Sports for nearly two decades in the Latin American and Caribbean theatre?

As a well-aged swimmer, I hope the USMS finally realizes that this whole sordid affair is bigger than any of us, and undermines the very integrity of competitive amateur sport. By allowing FINA to take a high handed, unfair and monopolistic (when it is convenient) approach over the rest of us, then offer cheapened and often disorganized last minute competition venues, it sets a precedent in motion that will be difficult to stop in the future. I hope someday that FINA does not unfairly treat the USMS the way they threatened sanctions and destroyed LatyCar, because we don't stand up to them now. If integrity doesn't rule amateur sport, especially at the highest levels, then it gives little hope for everything else occuring on the planet.

EricRobinson
September 28th, 2007, 01:29 AM
I am curious why the results of the poll asking, "Should FINA ban federations for masters involved in non-FINA events?" are no longer visible. The results were something like 97% against FINA's high handed approach, yet the results of this poll have mysteriously disappeared from the top of this thread. Also, FINA didn't answer USMS about the LatyCar question. Does anyone see a pattern here? When you are guilty, and have no integrity, you hide all the evidence, and avoid the questions. I hope the USMS has the wherewithall, integrity and desire to help LatyCar right the wrong, and show FINA that they, themselves, as the ultimate judges in this sport are not above the rules of fair conduct. It is awful that it has come to this, and a blemish on swimming that needs to be corrected, so FINA doesn't inflict its insensitive, greedy, monopolistics agenda on other victims like it did to successful, non-profit LatyCar.

David E. Morrill
September 29th, 2007, 11:43 AM
Yes, interesting you noticed, as all of us already did, that the poll results are gone... many moons ago.

I inquired about that at Nationals, and, frankly I forgot to bring it up with Prez Rob Copeland, I was told that it was HE (Rob) who ordered them off...!!!

C'mon Rob...

Regards to all at Convention!

geochuck
September 29th, 2007, 01:42 PM
We need FINA like we need a hole in the head.

David E. Morrill
September 30th, 2007, 08:40 AM
LATyCAR would like to thank President Rob Copeland for his effort:

"USMS SPECIAL APPOINTMENTS & LIAISONS ANNUAL REPORTS

UNITED STATES AQUATIC SPORTS (USAS) REPRESENTATIVE
Rob Copeland:

The rules of the Federation Internationale de Natation (FINA) require there to be only one recognized member federation of FINA in each country throughout the world. For the United States of America, that member federation is United States Aquatic Sports (USAS). USAS organizes and facilitates our annual convention and USAS speaks for the USA to FINA and ASUA. USAS deliberately attempts to play a minimal role within the United States, leaving primary responsibility for the governance of each of the aquatic sports to the members of USAS.

The 2006 House of Delegates directed the USAS Representative to approach USAS to determine what if anything could be done to assist in lifting of the sanction placed by FINA against LatyCar and WAMO. The USAS board heard our request and determined they would work with the new ASUA president, Eldon C. Godfrey, to pursue this matter.

We also hope, and will greatly appreciate, "a helping hand" from Nancy Rideout as FINA rep and Jim Miller as UANA rep during the next few months as they are direct USMS links to those organizations.

Ultimately -if FINA and UANA don't pay any attention to USMS's House of Delegates- it won't be because USMS didn't give it a try, however we're all betting on FINA and UANA demonstrating respect to a very respectable Organization which has proven through the years to only take on serious issues. Hopefully they will take the LATyCAR issue (as USMS has) and analyze it objectively and come up with a wise decision in benefit of all Masters aquatics on the America's continent.

Each and every one of the Organizations deserve a clean resolution.

Saludos to all.

EricRobinson
October 1st, 2007, 12:22 AM
Thank you to the USMS

ASUA-UANA (FINA) has repeatedly failed by replacing LatyCar masters with ill-planned, poorly attended events. Their actions of threatening sanctions against entire aquatic federations in the LatyCar arena have brought masters aquatics to a virtual stand-still.

LatyCar masters sincerely appreciate the USMS for taking the time to understand our plight and any efforts you do, as you are perhaps our best hope and our big brother. Thank you for trying to convincingly reason with the decision makers at ASUA-UANA (FINA) that they should lift the rediculous sanctions against the eight times ('91-'05) successful and non-profit LatyCar. If there is one people on the planet who stand up for the little guy, recognize injustices and put bullies in their place, it is the Americans. In spite of all the injustices ASUA-UANA (FINA) has done to LatyCar, I believe LatyCar is still prepared to work with ASUA-UANA (FINA) as in the past for the good of masters aquatics in the Americas.

Let's end the bickering but at the same time, help show ASUA-UANA (FINA) that they can indeed right a wrong. Their actions in no way bettered masters aquatics which should have been their primary goal. If, within a reasonable time, ASUA-UANA (FINA) continues to disregard the just appeal from the USMS and refuses to accept LatyCar's pioneering accomplishments, we hope that the USMS stands with us in recognizing the selfish and dangerous course FINA has chosen to take, with alterior motives (political and/or economical) that can only be harmful towards masters aquatics in all of the Americas.

Hopefully ASUA-UANA (FINA) will be reasonable, recognize their error in judgement, decide that the betterment of masters aquatics in the Americas is their priority, and all will be peaceably resolved.

Myriam
October 1st, 2007, 01:39 AM
Hello everyone, I have just attended a very nice meet at the Club Campestre in Medellin and probably more of a festival, since it was a not sanctioned meet, and we really had a lot of fun. Probably as Masters we could probably forget all the ruling that they want to impose to Masters, and just have fun in attending non sactioned meets.

But since I have the experience of attending four LatyCar championships, I think we should try to get it running again. I have been ask by many of the swimmers who attended that meet in Medellin about LatyCar. Many of them have attended, so they all know for experience of the WONDERFUL meet and they really missed it. And those who have not attended before, they have heard so much about them, that they want to be able to attend one.

So, my question is what do we have to do in order to organize a LatyCar meet, who should we ask and what kind of permission does it require. We would really need a LatyCar for next year, specially since for many of us, would be impossible to financially attend Worlds meet in Australia.

We need a LatyCar for 2008, and we need USMS, since as a group, you are strong and independent, so please let me know if you could help us.

LatyCar has been for :Latinamerica and the Caribeean the best that has ever happen to us. Please help the countries from this region to be able to have a well organized, fun and one of the best meets I have attended to be able to offer this opportunity to all masters swimmers from the Americas.

Sigamos nadando, Lets keep swimming

Myriam

Rob Copeland
October 1st, 2007, 08:59 AM
We need FINA like we need a hole in the head.George, you may not know that FINA is the world governing body responsible for the aquatics sports (Swimming, Diving, Water Polo, Synchronized Swimming and Open Water Swimming). FINA is responsible for swimming world championships and Olympic swimming. While you may need FINA, world championship and Olympic swimming “like a hole in the head”; I greatly appreciate the opportunity to view the greatest athletes competing on the world stage. So I for one would much prefer to watch Olympic swimming than have a hole in the head.

Note of clarification – I did not order the poll to be closed, I personally closed the poll. If you will take a look at organizations that were once sanctioned by FINA and later allowed to return to the FINA family; they have all accomplished this by working in cooperation with FINA. A poll questioning FINA’s legislated right to sanction will not make working for Masters in the America’s any easier with USAS or UANA. If your goal is to make it more difficult to established Masters Championships in the America’s then I will reopen the poll.

Eric, you want to end the bickering, then stop bickering!

Myriam, I missed you at the Pan-American Masters championships and our USMS annual meeting. Hopefully I’ll see you soon.

EricRobinson
October 1st, 2007, 09:51 AM
Rob,

I believe George was referring the "We" to masters aquatics, not the FINA World Championships and the Olympics.

Not only did you close the poll, but you eliminated the results.

It is hard to co-operate with someone who shuts you down and refuses to answer questions.

You are in a far stronger position and have far more experience in dealing with FINA that I ever will have. Tip toeing around FINA's corruption may possibly get LatyCar up and running, but what lessons have been learned?

geochuck
October 1st, 2007, 10:07 AM
Oh Fina and it's corruption.

Yes I was referring to Masters however now to think it over.

The judging and the politics. The joining of one group against the other or countries against others. The backroom meetings.

The little groups of judges deciding I will vote for your guys if you help us. This determines the outcome. I remember the back room guys deciding if an illegal kick is going to make a winner or a loser. Guess what it made a champion.

Noodles Romanoff
October 1st, 2007, 10:29 AM
From what I’ve heard, for most of its existence Latycar specifically banned USMS swimmers from participating in their events, even when they held a meet in Ft. Lauderdale!?!?

Is this true?

If it was true, it seems hypocritical for an organization that banned USMS from participating to come begging to USMS when they themselves are banned. Maybe turn-about is fair play? Or maybe not…hopefully not.

And pardon my ignorance… is the issue supporting Masters Swimming in the Americas or is it fighting some fina ruling about this latycar? If it is about supporting Masters Swimming then move forward and do it. Complaining and name calling is:notworking:
Eric, if you want a Masters meet in CR, then work with FINA and run it. I’ll bring the whole Romanoff clan. I’d love a trip to CR.

David E. Morrill
October 1st, 2007, 09:37 PM
Yep, Noodles, you're mistaken: USMS swimmers were not "banned" in '99 and, in fact many Latinamerican and Caribbean nationals belonging to USMS did participate. One illustrious USMS swimmer to establish a world record at the '99 LatyCar was Ron Johnson although he swam for his Mexican team! However, since you did ask to clear up your understanding of LATyCAR, here it is:

LATyCAR
September 2007 synopsis

> 1989 and 1990 The “Latin-American & Caribbean Masters Swimming Championship” conceived between Venezuelan, Puerto Rican, Cuban and Mexican Masters attending at the Woodlands LC Nationals. Announced in Venezuela a year later with the sole purpose of introducing MSI/FINA rule Masters south of the Rio Grande.

> 1991 Championship hosted by the Triple Crown Masters Foundation in Venezuela. Fully sanctioned by the FINA member federation. Meet Director later became President of the federation. Event inaugurated by the President of the Venezuelan Olympic Committee President. All officials belonged to the federation. 375 participants from 9 countries.

> 1993 Championship hosted by the Puerto Rico Masters League, fully sanctioned by the FINA member federation. Meet Director Jose de Jesus (Jr.) and meet Referee Jose de Jesus Sr. Inaugurated by the President of the PR Olympic Committee. All officials belonged to the federation. 479 participants from 11 countries.

> 1995 Championship hosted by the Casuarina Masters Club and fully sanctioned and supported by the Barbados Swim –FINA member- Association and inaugurated by its President. All officials belonged to the federation. Open waters was innovated to the event. 630+ participants from 13 countries. FINA announces the event in their newsletter.

> 1997 Championship hosted by the Nelson Vargas swim clubs, fully supported and sanctioned by the Mexican FINA member federation and inaugurated by their President. All officials belonged to the federation. Open waters in a river. 1,249 participants from 15 countries. FINA promotes meet in their newsletter.

> 1999 Championship hosted by the recently incorporated non-for-profit association, Latin-American & Caribbean Masters Swimming Championship “LATyCAR”, having obtained recognition # from USMS. The meet was officiated by USAS officials. Ocean open waters run by Randy Nutt, assisted by Stu Marvin. 1,100 participants from 19 countries. FINA promotes LATyCAR in their newsletter.

> 2001 LATyCAR and Jerry Olson representing ASUA-UANA engage in lengthy communications and meet to reach an agreement for unification of a Masters program in the Americas. Mr. Olson passes away.

> 2001 Championship hosted (and sanctioned) by the FINA member Costa Rican Swimming Federation, the meet Director was their VP and acting President. The meet Referee was the same USAS official for 1999 plus her stateside team of people, assisted by federation officials. Open waters, Water Polo and Diving were included. All relays on the same day were innovated. Over 700 participants. Announced in FINA newsletter.

> 2003 Championship hosted (and sanctioned) by the Barbados FINA member association. LATyCAR Council experiments with a “no intervention” format to see results. 375 participants from 16 countries. FINA promotes the Championship in FINA newsletter.

> 2004 LATyCAR Council members hand carry the Venezuelan FINA member federation’s letterhead recommendation to Riccione and deliver Spanish and English signed versions to FINA Masters Committee and to ASUA’s Orban Mendoza through Jose de Jesus.

> 2005 Championship hosted and sanctioned by the Sao Paulo Masters Federation fully supported and sanctioned by the Sao Paulo Swimming Federation as well as sanctioned by the Brazilian Masters Association “ABMN” the officially recognized Masters ruling body in Brazil. Named “ALL AMERICAS – LATyCAR” it was open to all countries of the continent. All sports, swimming, polo, diving, open waters, synchro and postal events. Over 800 participants (not withstanding the “situation”) from 21 countries. FINA communiqué wrongfully issued just prior to the meet after all had been set up, plane tickets bought, hotels paid for, officials organized, and claiming LATyCAR: 1.) Being a for-profit company; 2.) Not having sanctions and, 3.) Running the meet. Within 12 hours all allegations were proven incorrect with documents in hand. As all was ignored, The Sao Paulo Declaration was published and WAMO.info site created.

> 2007 Championship unlikely as LATyCAR rules stipulate a FINA member sanction is necessary. Panama, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Argentina, Mexico and Canada express interest in hosting however all were denied sanctions due to the 2005 FINA communiqué banning LATyCAR.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke.

Hope this helps you focus the issue, thanx for the opportunity and THANX for the offer to help us out at next meet!

Noodles Romanoff
October 3rd, 2007, 04:57 PM
Thanks for clearing this up. I did notice of the 1,100 participants from 19 countries in Ft. Lauderdale, almost a dozen of them were from USA clubs.:cheerleader:

David E. Morrill
October 6th, 2007, 10:42 PM
I guess the point being is that LATyCAR was always (and still is...) very observant to FINA hierarchy and structure and nevertheless the apparent goal was to eliminate "the competition" so that the panamerican meet would have a chance... the "unofficial" # 1 had 130 participants, the official # 1 had +/- 150 athletes and # 2, last month had 240 most from PR and DR... LATyCAR averages 800+ and has all the aquatic sports. It's time to harmonize together!!

We feel that a clean strategic alliance between LATyCAR and UANA would work much better and enhance a harmonious intelligent resolution... after all we originally offered them all our resignations so they could appoint freely...!!!!

We hope that our PR informal meetings will lead to that, after all, everyone seemed to be on the same wave length...!

Crossed fingers, that the next UANA Masters Committee President is enlightened to recognize the underlying positive goal.

Frank Thompson
October 31st, 2007, 04:25 PM
I don't know if this is a good place to post this but since I was a member of the House of Delegates and listened to what our past Treasurer of USMS, Tom Boak said about our involvement in the World Championships, this seemed just to much of a coincidence. By the way compared to this, USMS got off lightly.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/15988.asp

swimcoachmike
June 1st, 2008, 07:29 PM
Eric, are you still in CR? Comming down July 08 for swim surf holiday!

EricRobinson
June 3rd, 2008, 11:28 AM
Mike who?

David E. Morrill
December 31st, 2008, 10:39 AM
IGLA LIAISON
Jessica Seaton
The 2008 IGLA Championships were hosted by the District of Columbia Aquatics Club and the Washington Wetskins (waterpolo) June 18-22. It was a very successful meet. IGLA was granted Associate status by USMS. There is no final word on whether or not the results will be accepted for FINA top ten, but we’re hoping for the best. :applaud:

"... There is no final word..." Is this STILL the case...? Six months have gone by... what is the situation...? PLUS there was an ACTION point approved at Convention in Atlanta...

"... whether or not the results will be accepted for <by> FINA... hoping..." :confused:

"Hoping"...? You've GOT to pursue, not HOPE... :bolt:

Please, we'd like to read an UPDATE on this issue, it "sort of" brings back Sandi's comments to the forefront (page 1 of this forum topic) and -of course- ghostly :afraid: remembrances of our extremely successfull :censor: LatyCar... :censor:

C'm on USMS, if anyone can it's you...! :cheerleader:

pwolf66
December 31st, 2008, 04:06 PM
FINA has accepted the IGLA results.

http://www.ebar.com/columns/column.php?sec=sports

Made several of my swimming friends very happy.

David E. Morrill
December 31st, 2008, 06:50 PM
:bliss: Good news: peacefull wisdom prevailed in the upper echelon... nothing like solving issues amicably :applaud: :banana:

EricRobinson
January 1st, 2009, 02:54 PM
What fantastic news that FINA has now made a step in the right direction, recognizing world records set at the International Gay and Lesbian Aquatics (IGLA) event held six months ago.

However, those participating in previous events that were destroyed by FINA's high-handed monopolistic approach are far from celebrating a victory, only that a small battle has been won and the tide may be starting to turn. So far this step in the right direction is a very selective step on FINA's part, and I wonder if it was strictly a political move having to do with the IGLA being granted associate status by USMS, FINA's strongest master's supporter. I believe I am speaking for many of us when I say FINA is going to have to make a lot more steps in this direction, including the re-sanctioning and recognition of LatyCar that it cruely and selfishly destroyed, before truth, fairness and integrity return to global masters aquatics.

If you have to cheat to win, like a gold medal relay I saw in Perth comprised of swimmers who swim in different regions and only pay membership fees to belong to the same team, then what real pride do you have in your accomplishments? You are only cheapening a friendly sport and fooling yourself. Integrity has to start from the top down, and that means FINA. Time will tell where this is really going.