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ande
September 19th, 2006, 02:42 PM
why doesn't masters apply the same age rule for short course as it does for long course?

In long course meets a persons age is determined by their age by the end of the year.

so at worlds there were 24, 29 , 34, 39, 44, ... year olds
who competed in the next age group up because they aged up later in the year.

In short course competitions a persons age is determined by their age at either the end or beginning of the competition.

I encourage USMS to be consistent and
consider adopting the same rules for short course competitions

Ande

scyfreestyler
September 19th, 2006, 02:50 PM
Probably because USMS rules are different from FINA rules. Why not consolidate? Who knows. Probably because not enough people have complained I guess.

Good luck in your venture. :)

Peter Cruise
September 19th, 2006, 02:53 PM
Ande- you are trying to apply logic and common sense to an issue that is very sensitive: we foreigners trying to take away your precious...yards. To change the birthdate would be yet another of the insidious, perhaps even invidious steps along the long slippery slope of sameness that the world wants to impose upon the ruggedly individualistic American swimmer...

knelson
September 19th, 2006, 03:04 PM
Actually it's only SCY where your age as of the meet is used, correct? I believe SCM uses the same convention as LCM (age on 12/31).

jim clemmons
September 19th, 2006, 05:55 PM
Actually it's only SCY where your age as of the meet is used, correct?

For the most part, yes.

SCM, LCM and the vast majority of open water competitions all use the "age as of the last day of the year" rule.

strong440
September 19th, 2006, 06:45 PM
A quote from 301 Long DistanceSwimming:
301.4 "...will be determined by the age as of the day of the swim".
Thus, if you really want to compete in two 5K or 10K meter races, etc. the same year you can if your birthday is between May 16th and Sept.15. (and if you could find the venues).

Sam Perry
September 19th, 2006, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
Ande- you are trying to apply logic and common sense to an issue that is very sensitive: we foreigners trying to take away your precious...yards. To change the birthdate would be yet another of the insidious, perhaps even invidious steps along the long slippery slope of sameness that the world wants to impose upon the ruggedly individualistic American swimmer...

Next thing I know, is that you'll want me to buy gas (or petrol as you foreigners refer to it) by the litre and with Euros or some other currency just so I have NO IDEA how much it costs now!

newmastersswimmer
September 19th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Ande- you are trying to apply logic and common sense to an issue that is very sensitive: we foreigners trying to take away your precious...yards. To change the birthdate would be yet another of the insidious, perhaps even invidious steps along the long slippery slope of sameness that the world wants to impose upon the ruggedly individualistic American swimmer...

originally posted by the Northern Bookman


Uh....yaeh...whatever he said!

Peter Cruise
September 19th, 2006, 11:40 PM
Oh say, can you see...Jim, it may be florid, but of course my opinion agrees with Ande's, namely, that the dates should agree. However, I cannot now be referred to as the Bookman; the proper term now is the Unemployed Man <sob>.

ande
September 20th, 2006, 10:37 AM
my reason for posting this is selfish
I turn 45 on May 21 2008
Austin Nats in 2008 are likely to happen the month before my BD

I'd like to see USMS apply consistent rules to determine age

how does one go about proposing the to the USMS rule making body?

I'd also like to see USMS allow backstrokers to curl their toes over the edge of the pool on starts.

ande


Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
Ande- you are trying to apply logic and common sense to an issue that is very sensitive: we foreigners trying to take away your precious...yards. To change the birthdate would be yet another of the insidious, perhaps even invidious steps along the long slippery slope of sameness that the world wants to impose upon the ruggedly individualistic American swimmer...

originally posted by the Northern Bookman


Uh....yaeh...whatever he said!

nkfrench
September 20th, 2006, 02:23 PM
That's how horses are aged up. Maybe FINA uses that because a furlong is approx 200m, not 200y, and horses race in furlongs ? It's an imperial measurement that translates nicely to metric. :)

The rule would be bad if you were a developmental swimmer whose birthday was on Dec 31. You would always be the youngest in your age group. For Masters, that would be the best situation. For Senior events not conducted by age group, seems like it wouldn't matter so much.

At any rate you would have people only aging up once a year on the same day so you wouldn't have to keep track of people changing age groups within a competition year. In the old days that would make it a lot easier -- and even now, since birthdate can be considered private information but age is not.

About the others, it would be great if the same rules were followed by everyone when possible and practical. It sure would make it easier when the kids who swim both club and HS knew what rules they were officiated on and didn't goof up. Even when they go by the same rulebook, the implementation date for rule changes isn't the same. I've seen more than a few kids DQed when their coach didn't realize the rule change was in effect for one organization but not the other.

Steve Ruiter
September 20th, 2006, 03:32 PM
OK, so the US uses exact age and FINA uses a Year of Birth rule.

The US system is clearly more "fair" if you agree that it matters whether you are 44 years 364 days or 45 years old on a given performance date. I do, but I was raised that way, except for my childhood summer swim league.

FINA is easier to implement (all you need is YOB). Arguably the calendar effect at Masters ages is irrelevant, but I don't like it. You are always in the same age group as people born in the same year.

We only use the FINA rule for meters as they don't recognize yards events.

I think we are stuck with both.

Hugh
September 20th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Ande,

how does one go about proposing the to the USMS rule making body?


You may propose any rule changes through your LMSC. Check http://www.usms.org/rules/part6.pdf for specifics. Since Rules were considered this year at convention, they won't be considered again until 2008, with the exception of "emergencies." It's been a number of years since we have had a rule proposal dealing with age determination dates. We used to be consistent for all meets with age determined by the date of the swim like we currently use in yards. However, once FINA went with age as of December 31st, we needed to change our rules for meters to be consistent with FINA rules or else jeopardize records for many of our swimmers. Since FINA does not keep records in yards, there has been no compelling reason to change our rules for yards.

gull
September 20th, 2006, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by ande
I turn 45 on May 21 2008...


Another reason I am excited about turning 50 (February 9, 2008) and getting out of this age group (not that 50-54 will be that much easier).

swimkim
September 20th, 2006, 09:03 PM
maybe dates are too tricky for fina - is it mm/dd/yyyy or dd/mm/yyyy? i like the fina rule - i have a november birthday and got to swim up at worlds this year. i'd like to swim up in scy too!

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 21st, 2006, 02:11 PM
I wonder if itis because so many nonwestern cultures don't mark individual birthdays but birthyears. That is everyone bvorn in 1975 is considered the same age regardless of where their actual birthday falls with in that year. thisis the same way horses' ages are tracked.