Stroke length question

[fireguard]

How much does a swimmer's kick affect his/her stroke length? Should a weak kicker use long stroke style? I am a WEAK kiker and 5.58 feet (170 cm) tall, what is my optimal stroke count for 25 yard?

[SolarEnergy]

How much does a swimmer's kick affect his/her stroke length? Should a weak kicker use long stroke style? I am a WEAK kiker and 5.58 feet (170 cm) tall, what is my optimal stroke count for 25 yard?

Without being able to take a look at your technique, it's hard to set an realistic stroke count target. What's your actual stroke count at the moment?

As for the weak kicker aspect. Well that depends. Is it weak or bad?

A bad kicking action will have a negative impact on drag. It increases drag resistance. Which in turn will have a negative impact on stroke length.

In fact it's a good question that you're asking. Most technical flaws can fit into two categories. Those who have a bad impact on stroke rate, and those who have a bad impact on stroke length. A poor kicking action may have a bad impact on both.

That being said, if you kicking action and overall balance are good but weak as a result of poor ankle flexibility for instance, that may not increase drag per se. And in such a case, it may not affect stroke length negatively.

[KaizenSwimmer]

Leiming
Please check out the thread http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=6732.

There's no single "right" count for you. For instance, I train with a range from 12-15 SPL in scy freestyle training (which has improved from the 17-22SPL I used in college 1968-72.) I use every count in the range in every practice -- sometimes within a single repeat. Each count produces a slightly different neuromuscular imprint. What I seek by using multiple counts is to have the equivalent of "gears" for my swimming -- the ability to achieve the most economical combination of Stroke Length and Stroke Rate for any speed or any situation I might encounter in a distance race.

My SPL range is highly efficient by nearly any measure, except for world class freestylers who are 6-3 or taller. Yet if you saw me swim, you'd wonder "where's the kick." My efficiency is 90% the product of drag reduction, not of a powerful kick -- or anything else that's powerful.

[KaizenSwimmer]

[QUOTE=SolarEnergy;64430]A bad kicking action will have a negative impact on drag. It increases drag resistance. Which in turn will have a negative impact on stroke length.QUOTE]

Great point, but my interpretation of inefficient kicking action would focus less on flexibility and more on kicking too far outside the body line as a result of poor balance or instability.

[SolarEnergy]

[QUOTE=SolarEnergy;64430]A bad kicking action will have a negative impact on drag. It increases drag resistance. Which in turn will have a negative impact on stroke length.QUOTE]

Great point, but my interpretation of inefficient kicking action would focus less on flexibility and more on kicking too far outside the body line as a result of poor balance or instability. Absolutely Terry. That's one very commun mistake.

[TheGoodSmith]

Depends if you are kicking for a 50 free sprint or a 500 free middle or distance event. Tempo and power in your legs is relative to the event you are swimming.

Sprinter's strokes inevitably give up a small amount of efficieny for increased turnover and raw speed. There is a trade off... balancing this trade off is the key. Your optimal stroke count per length will fluctuate depending on the type of race you are swimming.

Answer: It depends.


John Smith

[fireguard]

Without being able to take a look at your technique, it's hard to set an realistic stroke count target. What's your actual stroke count at the moment?

As for the weak kicker aspect. Well that depends. Is it weak or bad?

A bad kicking action will have a negative impact on drag. It increases drag resistance. Which in turn will have a negative impact on stroke length.

In fact it's a good question that you're asking. Most technical flaws can fit into two categories. Those who have a bad impact on stroke rate, and those who have a bad impact on stroke length. A poor kicking action may have a bad impact on both.

That being said, if you kicking action and overall balance are good but weak as a result of poor ankle flexibility for instance, that may not increase drag per se. And in such a case, it may not affect stroke length negatively.
Thank you for your opinion.
My current count is 19, which I can maintain for hundreds of yards. I can decrease it to 17 or 18, but that puts lots of pressure on my shoulder. I thought my kick was weak but not bad because of my poor ankle flexibility. Now I am not sure after terry's post. I tried both the 4 beat and 2 beat style, and I have the same troke count for both. However, when I wear a pair of F size zoomers, I feel my speed and stroke count improve significantly even when I use a 2 beat, especially I sense less deceleration during my catch.

[fireguard]

Depends if you are kicking for a 50 free sprint or a 500 free middle or distance event. Tempo and power in your legs is relative to the event you are swimming.

Sprinter's strokes inevitably give up a small amount of efficieny for increased turnover and raw speed. There is a trade off... balancing this trade off is the key. Your optimal stroke count per length will fluctuate depending on the type of race you are swimming.

Answer: It depends.


John Smith

I am more intrested in distance longer than 500 yards. However, in my case my comfortable stroke count seems always 19 no matter the distance. For short distance I kick faster and pull hard; for long distance I kick less vigorously and pull gently.

[fireguard]

[QUOTE=SolarEnergy;64430]A bad kicking action will have a negative impact on drag. It increases drag resistance. Which in turn will have a negative impact on stroke length.QUOTE]

Great point, but my interpretation of inefficient kicking action would focus less on flexibility and more on kicking too far outside the body line as a result of poor balance or instability.

Actually I am aware of that, so I also tried no kick (If I sense my legs sink I kick one or two). Seems it doesn't affect stroke length either.

[SolarEnergy]

Thank you for your opinion.
My current count is 19, which I can maintain for hundreds of yards. I can decrease it to 17 or 18, but that puts lots of pressure on my shoulder. I thought my kick was weak but not bad because of my poor ankle flexibility. Now I am not sure after terry's post. I tried both the 4 beat and 2 beat style, and I have the same troke count for both. However, when I wear a pair of F size zoomers, I feel my speed and stroke count improve significantly even when I use a 2 beat, especially I sense less deceleration during my catch. Typically, how do you train stroke per length? How much volume? what type of exercise?

[fireguard]

Typically, how do you train stroke per length? How much volume? what type of exercise?
I don't actually train stroke per length. I do many different tries with same amount of effort (the effort I can maintain for hundreds of yards) to see which one has the best combination of stroke length and speed, and then I take the stroke length of that one as my stroke length.

[KaizenSwimmer]

I can decrease it to 17 or 18, but that puts lots of pressure on my shoulder.

Leiming
The pressure on your shoulder probably results because you are trying to improve stroke length by pushing water towards your feet more forcefully, which I think is a common instinct.

That instinct results from thinking that stroke length is "how far you can push water back." It's not.

Stroke length is "how far your body travels from one right (or left) hand entry to the next." And the distance your body travels in each stroke cycle will be influenced most by reducing drag and working WITH the water.

Try this as an experiment in your next practice. Swim more quietly than usual. At all speeds. It will be easier at slower speeds and will require intense concentration at higher speeds. Compare your stroke count -- as well as other factors like sense of effort, pressure on your shoulder, how well you feel the water -- when swimming "silently" with that when you pay no attention to how much noise you make. Please let us know if anything changes as a result.

[SolarEnergy]

I don't actually train stroke per length. I do many different tries with same amount of effort (the effort I can maintain for hundreds of yards) to see which one has the best combination of stroke length and speed, and then I take the stroke length of that one as my stroke length.
Is there a chance that we could look at you swimming? Can you use a site such as iTube (or something like that) to maybe post a footage?

The reasons I am asking :

Given your size (170cm), you should be able to swim 17strokes without any problem whatsoever. If you can't (without feeling pain in the shoulders), that's probably because of some major technical flaws such as a very wide kick (like Terry have suggested already).

You know, I'm not saying you're a bad swimmer. Pardon me if I use the expression "major technical flaw". English is a second language therefore I sometimes lack those important "shades of gray" when comes the time to find qualificative attributes.

But yeah. Bottom line, if we could take a look it seems that things would become much more clear

[aquaFeisty]

Hi Leiming,

One thing to watch for with shoulder pain is that you're not letting your leading arm drift back up towards the surface at the beginning of each stroke. When your hand drifts up, your elbow drops down and that puts your shoulder in a very vulnerable position for the start of each pull cycle.

I don't have much background in competitive swimming as a kid, but I did swim for my high school team my senior year and my coach emphasized long strokes and a low stroke count. Unfortunately, the coach did not provide any useful info on how to actually achieve a low stroke count. In trying to stretch out my stroke, I started letting my hand slide up to try and 'ride' the glide a bit more. Looking back, this action caused a very sore right shoulder. I find now if I focus on keeping the elbow up (and the hand down), and not overwork the catch, I can keep my shoulders from hurting.

Hope this makes sense and good luck.
Carrie

[fireguard]

You know, I'm not saying you're a bad swimmer. Pardon me if I use the expression "major technical flaw". English is a second language therefore I sometimes lack those important "shades of gray" when comes the time to find qualificative attributes.

That's fine, I always think I am a bad swimmer :( .
I wish somebody could take a vedio for me. Unfortunately, I swim all by myself and the pool is very busy. I have a vedio taken long time ago; however, I have changed a lot since then.

[fireguard]

Leiming
The pressure on your shoulder probably results because you are trying to improve stroke length by pushing water towards your feet more forcefully, which I think is a common instinct.

That instinct results from thinking that stroke length is "how far you can push water back." It's not.

Stroke length is "how far your body travels from one right (or left) hand entry to the next." And the distance your body travels in each stroke cycle will be influenced most by reducing drag and working WITH the water.

Try this as an experiment in your next practice. Swim more quietly than usual. At all speeds. It will be easier at slower speeds and will require intense concentration at higher speeds. Compare your stroke count -- as well as other factors like sense of effort, pressure on your shoulder, how well you feel the water -- when swimming "silently" with that when you pay no attention to how much noise you make. Please let us know if anything changes as a result.

Thanks Terry, I will try that today. Now I wonder how I can stroke fast, yet quietly.

[fireguard]

Hi Leiming,

One thing to watch for with shoulder pain is that you're not letting your leading arm drift back up towards the surface at the beginning of each stroke. When your hand drifts up, your elbow drops down and that puts your shoulder in a very vulnerable position for the start of each pull cycle.

I don't have much background in competitive swimming as a kid, but I did swim for my high school team my senior year and my coach emphasized long strokes and a low stroke count. Unfortunately, the coach did not provide any useful info on how to actually achieve a low stroke count. In trying to stretch out my stroke, I started letting my hand slide up to try and 'ride' the glide a bit more. Looking back, this action caused a very sore right shoulder. I find now if I focus on keeping the elbow up (and the hand down), and not overwork the catch, I can keep my shoulders from hurting.

Hope this makes sense and good luck.
Carrie

You are definitely right. I strech out and my right hand is less patient than my left. Since I breath to my right side, I start my right pull eagerly to aviod the deceleration. But if I wait my elbow up, wouldn't that hurt speend during that waiting period?

[KaizenSwimmer]

One thing to watch for with shoulder pain is that you're not letting your leading arm drift back up towards the surface at the beginning of each stroke. When your hand drifts up, your elbow drops down and that puts your shoulder in a very vulnerable position for the start of each pull cycle.


Very good point. Pay close attention to keeping your fingers pointing down from the moment your hand enters the water.
One way to do so is visualize a "Mail Slot" 12 inches forward of each shoulder and slip both hand and forearm through that slot on each entry. This will reinforce the "silent swimming" focal point.