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craiglll@yahoo.com
October 10th, 2006, 06:32 PM
I wanted to make this a poll but couldn't figure out how to do it!
Do people think that the swimming finals should be moved ot the mornig so that they will be on during the evening prime time here inthe States? Many different swimming sites from other countries think that it is a lot of us in hteStates blowing & whinning.

knelson
October 11th, 2006, 12:07 PM
Is the change necessary? Of course not. Is it a big deal? No.

Major sporting events are always scheduled for maximum revenue. Day games in baseball and football used to be the norm, now night games are commonplace. Swimming will be the same story. The competitors will adjust to when they have to swim and swim fast regardless of the time of day.

I can see why other countries would be upset that the Olympics are catering to US television. The bottom line is money talks and everyone knows this.

geochuck
October 11th, 2006, 10:18 PM
Just thought I would like to make my comment in Chinese 我喜欢游泳

在小山下面的游泳

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 15th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Just thought I would like to make my comment in Chinese 我喜欢游泳

在小山下面的游泳

George, you are wonderful. I know that every time I come onto the discussion threads here, you will have something interesting, enlightening, or funny or all of them.

Thanks,
Craig

I was an Asian history major and worked in a Chinese restaurant but can't read any, only cuss. What did you write?

geochuck
October 15th, 2006, 03:48 PM
I love swimming, first phrase, second phrase, swim down hill. I used this translator http://www.freetranslation.com/

Muppet
October 18th, 2006, 11:07 PM
i voted no...

but with the mention of revenue.... it would be interesting to see the analysis on what countries have the largest percentage of viewing televisions, and what countries have the largest $ input. i bet the US has one of the lowest viewing % and the highest $

Peter Cruise
October 19th, 2006, 01:05 AM
The ironic thing is that NBC will still dick with the coverage and delay it for any old reason, including hyping a featured race, and present it as 'plausibly live' coverage anyway.

fireguard
October 19th, 2006, 01:41 AM
I love swimming, first phrase, second phrase, swim down hill. I used this translator http://www.freetranslation.com/

The translator did a bad job translating the second phrase. If I translate it from Chinese back to English, it becomes ''swim at the foot of the hill''.

geochuck
October 19th, 2006, 02:11 AM
I know the free transltor is not perfect, neither am I. May be it saw that video of Phelps swimming fly down the hill he was near the bottom of the hill when it finished. I will have a look but I may have lost that one when my computer went down hill.

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 20th, 2006, 08:42 PM
i showed it to a friend. He said it seemed rather funny to him. In college I worked inthe kitchen of family friend's reastaurant to try to learn some chinese. When the owners were trying to talk to me. they would stop everything they were doing and speak to me in English. I had known them all of my life.

Tree
October 23rd, 2006, 04:19 AM
I think it would be better if it was changed into 在小山下面游泳. :)

在小山下面的游泳[/quote]

geochuck
October 23rd, 2006, 07:48 AM
I think it would be better if it was changed into 在小山下面游泳. :)

在小山下面的游泳[/QUOTE]

I think that probably is a better way of putting it.:applaud:

USMSarah
October 23rd, 2006, 11:25 AM
Do what's best for the athletes. The US can delay coverage...

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 24th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Tonight I was talking with a New Zealand guy who is here for grad school. He said that the US is about to ruin another Olympics.

knelson
October 25th, 2006, 12:47 AM
Do what's best for the athletes. The US can delay coverage...

So what is best for the athletes? Just because finals are traditionally held in the evenings doesn't necessarily mean this is the best time for them. Having finals in the morning does guarantee the athletes will have a night's sleep since their last session, unlike having finals in the evening.

Tree
October 25th, 2006, 02:04 AM
We're not the ones busted for drugs on a regular basis. Isn't that what we suspect the Chinese are doing by holding their women swimmers out of key international competition?[/quote]

Sorry, I do not understand it. May I ask what it means?

Tree
October 25th, 2006, 02:14 AM
The translator did a bad job translating the second phrase. If I translate it from Chinese back to English, it becomes ''swim at the foot of the hill''.

Yes. 在小山下面游泳 is equivalent to swim at the foot of the hill.

By the way, George, I read your post in the FREESTYLE STROKE thread mentioning you watched a short film of Mao swimming across the Yangtze River. I was wondering what made you watch that film. :confused:

geochuck
October 25th, 2006, 10:55 AM
The freestyle stroke thread was getting a little hot and fire like, so while sitting in my lazyboy chair I remembered years ago hearing about Moa swimming Yangyze River so I seached to see if I could find it, It was a very difficult search as all the sites were in Chinese. There is an annual race there now and they invite swimmers to China to race in the race.

The film I saw was approx 20 minutes and was very interesting except all in Chinese. I think it was basiclly on the struggles of the Chinese during the Gen Chiang Kai-shek's rule. It include Moa's swim in the river. Moa was not a great swimmer but I think his swim was about the challenges of the Chinese through the ages.

My grand father was a seaman and told us when we were children that Chiang Kai-shek was very cruel and go into villages and steal the food and kill all the people. My grand father was there, he said he saw this happen. Moa tried to defend the villages.

I am not being political here...

Tree
October 26th, 2006, 03:54 AM
[quote=geochuck;65758I am not being political here...[/quote]

Politics is a rather complicated thing here. :frustrated:

Actually the starting place of Moa(finally spell it right) to cross the river was very close to my university where even a kind of monument was built. I've never been there but I heard people saying that.

Back to the swimming topic. We do not have enough swimming pools here, even in cities, not to mention rural areas. My hometown, a small town in Youngyze River area, which is full of water resource, never have any kind of pools yet so far. People have to swim in the lake, river and reservoir(not sure if it is the right word). Quite a few children are drowned each summer. I personally saw several family friends were in deep sorrow to know their young kids drowned.I was never allowed to swim when I was a kid. And also there is no swimming club or something like that at lower levels national wide like in the towns wide in which people can learn proper swimming skills, participate competitions, etc. People just self teach and self learn how to swim in these towns, exactly like Moa did in his time.

George, I hope you can travel to China to watch the Olympic games in 2008. and then trace a litte bit after your grandfather's footprint. I assure you it is quite an adventure! :applaud:

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Do what's best for the athletes. The US can delay coverage...

Well it looks like the IOC did not agree with the poll here of 84% in favor of delaying the coverage of USA TV viewing. NBC was able to convince the IOC that it would be in the best interests of the World to have morning finals for best TV coverage and more exposure of the sport. I don't know what enticed the IOC to do this and don't even want to try to guess. Here is a link to opinions from around the world of swimming.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/12286.asp

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 02:42 PM
I don't know what enticed the IOC to do this and don't even want to try to guess. Here is a link to opinions from around the world of swimming.
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/12286.asp
I think the reason is MONEY!!!

swimmerlisa
October 26th, 2006, 02:43 PM
USA Swimming statement regarding change in Olympic swimming schedule (10/26/2006)

Statement from USA Swimming Executive Director Chuck Wielgus regarding the IOC decision to change the swimming schedule in Beijing:


ďThis is a great opportunity for our sport to be showcased to the nearly one billion people in the potential television audience of the Americas during the first nine days of the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing. The live prime time exposure is something that can only benefit the sport of swimming, and enhance the public profile of our sportís top athletes.


The IOCís decision to announce this nearly two years prior to the Olympic Games ensures a level playing field for all athletes. No matter what the schedule, our athletes will be ready to swim their best when their best is needed.Ē


-------

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2006, 03:01 PM
I think the reason is MONEY!!!

George:

They are not supposed to be enticed by money. That is what Juan Antinio Samaranch said when he was President from 1980 to 2001 and had to eat his words when the scandel about the Winter Olympics happened. Actually, you have to address this man as "Your Excellency" or you will be ignored. He actually came out after the scandel and said the IOC has to have commerical interests in all its decisions or they will be bankrupt. Dick Pound of the WADA and your old swimming friend helped Samarach change to be be more commerical at the IOC. So this decision should not be surprising to anyone. Lets just hope that no one has lined up and filled there pockets to effect the decision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Antonio_Samaranch

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 03:10 PM
If Dick Pound listened to me he would allow everyone to use whatever drug they wanted to.

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2006, 03:20 PM
If Dick Pound listened to me he would allow everyone to use whatever drug they wanted to.

Well his organization and the IOC must not be listening because today the IOC announced there will increase doping tests in 2008 to 4500, a 25% increase over the amount in 2004. But do these assurances guarantee that the 2008 games will be pure and clean?

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 03:28 PM
That is my reasoning the cheats will be there and will not be caught, so let everyone use them. Then we will know the truth. We will reinstate our drug dealer coaches and Canada will reign supreme. I remember when we had 100m runners that could not be beaten, they were only beaten by a drug test. The guy who got the medal was a druggie also. I still believe Johnston did not take drugs, someone slipped it in his drinking water.

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 03:58 PM
I believed him when the story first broke and was so dissapointed when the truth came out. I try to block it out of my memmory and can still take pride that he ran faster then any others who used drugs. The cover up of Carl Lewis's drug use was well hidden as most of the US team in those same Olympics. Drugs were rampant and used by most. I still believe that most still use drugs but are not all are being caught.

Tree
October 27th, 2006, 06:15 AM
I'm just as sure the Chinese women have been taking drugs around the clock like they did in the 90s. And keeping their young kids out of international competitions so they're not caught.

Your claim is very unfair to those innocent Chinese women swimmers. Not every Chinese female champion is winning her titles by using drugs,for instance the breaststroker, Luo Xuejuan. I am not ,even the slightest,trying to defend for those Chinese women using drugs to win, which were and are always a big shame to me and my country. But you are just way too far by attacking every Chinese swimmer.

The Fortress
October 27th, 2006, 09:45 AM
Tree:

I agree. I didn't mean my comment to encompass every single woman in China. Obviously, there are swimmers who don't cheat. China has a sordid history of cheating. My point was only that I am sure there are some Chinese cheats out there right now. There was a big article (editorial, I think) on this very topic in Swimming World a few months back.

George:

Drugs are rampant, no doubt, in track and field, cycling, baseball, football, swimming, etc. I don't think there's any great distinction in being the "fastest cheater" though. Floyd Landis doesn't seem to be faring too well in the public relations department despite his previously wholesome image. And everyone hates Barry Bonds. The East German and Chinese women swimmers have been villified. The fact is that although a lot of people cheat, no one like cheaters. We prefer our heros to be clean. Like for example Michael Phelps.

geochuck
October 27th, 2006, 10:44 AM
The East German and Chinese women swimmers have been villified. our heros to be clean
If we only knew the real truth there may not be any Olympic events or maybe only a few finalists that would qualify to compete.

In the 50's doctors were handing out anabolic steroids like candy and when I heard how they were manufactured from body parts of a bull I did not want them. In 1945 they started using Pinkies (benzadrine) the little pills the pilots took during the war they kept you awake up to four hours, then Dexadrine long lasting effects, and so on. Later liquid dexadrine all you had to tell the doctor was I wet my bed and you had an endless supply. Dr please excuse the spelling errors.

Some will complete clean but some will not.

The Fortress
October 27th, 2006, 10:59 AM
Well, that's the problem, George. We don't really know who is and who isn't. So, because we prefer our heros to be clean, we are disappointed (you and Ben Johnson) when they are not. I think the swimmer who got screwed over the most, I remember watching it so clearly, was Shirley Babashoff. It was her and the roid monsters. She should have got gold instead of silver in every event. (I do remember she got gold in one relay.)

Frank Thompson
October 27th, 2006, 01:20 PM
Well, that's the problem, George. We don't really know who is and who isn't. So, because we prefer our heros to be clean, we are disappointed (you and Ben Johnson) when they are not. I think the swimmer who got screwed over the most, I remember watching it so clearly, was Shirley Babashoff. It was her and the roid monsters. She should have got gold instead of silver in every event. (I do remember she got gold in one relay.)

Fortress:

Again we are speculating as to who was using and who wasn't using plus there were other swimmers in the competition that were not using. Take 1972 for example, swimmers like Sandy Neilson, Shane Gould, and Keena Rothhammer defeated Shirly Babashoff in the 100, 200, and 400 Free events. These were not roid monsters at all so Shirley didn't and wouldn't have won a gold insead of the silver medals won in the 100 and 200 Free.

In 1976, there was a black women swimmer from Holland named Enith Brigitha that defeated Shirley in the 100 Free and was within .18 in the 200 Free. Without the East Germans there you never know what would have happened and all we can do is speculate. Again not all of the swimmers in the competition were roid monsters. But we will never know for sure and at this point all we do is speculate. The 400 and 800 are the events she got second to Petra Thumer by margins of 4 seconds over the 3rd place finisher, so yes I agree with that performance she would have won those two events, and only those two events judging from the margin of 4 seconds. But again its really pure speculation.

Frank Thompson
October 27th, 2006, 01:31 PM
Well it looks like the IOC did not agree with the poll here of 84% in favor of delaying the coverage of USA TV viewing. NBC was able to convince the IOC that it would be in the best interests of the World to have morning finals for best TV coverage and more exposure of the sport. I don't know what enticed the IOC to do this and don't even want to try to guess. Here is a link to opinions from around the world of swimming.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/12286.asp

Here are some more opinions from around the world about this decision.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/12296.asp

The Fortress
October 27th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Frank:

I wasn't thinking of the sprint events with Shirley. You are a pure encyclopedia of swimming. I wish everything in your brain was in my head. And of course you're right, it's best not to speculate. It's too bad that uncertainty creates speculation.

knelson
October 27th, 2006, 11:42 PM
Here are some more opinions from around the world about this decision.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/12296.asp

Everyone hates change. I really think people are making a mountain out of a molehill with this one. If I were Australian I'm sure I'd be a little pissed that the IOC is catering to NBC and the U.S., but is it really a big deal for Australian viewers? Sydney is two hours ahead of Beijing so it's not like finals are going to be at some oddball time for them. As far as the swimmers; I maintain it really isn't going to affect them. People swim faster in finals because they're finals--not become of the time of day they are contested.

Peter Cruise
October 28th, 2006, 12:16 AM
Kirk- to the rest of the world, it appears that the decision to pander to NBC is just a case of giving in the Americans while they don't realize that when money talks the IOC listens really well. Of course, living in Seattle you wouldn't think it would make any difference where they have 24 hr a day caffeine blowers throughout the city ensuring that everyone has enough 'edge' to face the I5 for one more morning.

Good to see you on this site while usaswimming.org is 'rebuilding' the smoking ruin that is their forum.

knelson
October 28th, 2006, 12:31 AM
Kirk- to the rest of the world, it appears that the decision to pander to NBC is just a case of giving in the Americans while they don't realize that when money talks the IOC listens really well. Of course, living in Seattle you wouldn't think it would make any difference where they have 24 hr a day caffeine blowers throughout the city ensuring that everyone has enough 'edge' to face the I5 for one more morning.

Hey, it's that or heroin. Take your pick! ;)

No, I agree about the pandering, but a lot of the responses are acting like this is such an egregious thing to do to the swimmers. My point is it ain't going to matter for the swimmers.

Peter Cruise
October 28th, 2006, 03:02 PM
NBC will still delay races to fit around commercials and profiles; 'plausibly live' has always been their mantra. Heck, if this had ever been about the athletes, we wouldn't have had boycotted olympics.

knelson
October 28th, 2006, 03:23 PM
I love their coverage of the 1500. They usually show about the first 200 meters then cut away and come back to show the final 100. They can't show a 15 minute race in its entirety? Geez, they show the entire marathon. Sure, they cut away for commercials periodically, but still...

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 29th, 2006, 05:09 PM
USA Swimming statement regarding change in Olympic swimming schedule (10/26/2006)

Statement from USA Swimming Executive Director Chuck Wielgus regarding the IOC decision to change the swimming schedule in Beijing:


ďThis is a great opportunity for our sport to be showcased to the nearly one billion people in the potential television audience of the Americas during the first nine days of the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing. The live prime time exposure is something that can only benefit the sport of swimming, and enhance the public profile of our sportís top athletes.


The IOCís decision to announce this nearly two years prior to the Olympic Games ensures a level playing field for all athletes. No matter what the schedule, our athletes will be ready to swim their best when their best is needed.Ē


-------

I am using your quote here only because it truly shows how wein the States simply have no idea about the world and how they feel about us. Is this the US being a bully again?

And Now This for George,

I have been talking to veterinarians in Canada for my job. It is great to try to guess wha tlanuage the person picking up the telephone in Canada is goinig to speak. On Friday, I had a women start talking to me in somehting I've never heard before. I asked if she spoke English or French. She started to yell at me over thetelephone. I hung up. It is great when some one speaking French won't let me speak with them in French. They keep changing to English.

Frank Thompson
November 9th, 2006, 05:32 PM
Here is some more news from around the world about this decision. I wonder if there can be pressure to change the decision?

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/12490.asp

Muppet
November 9th, 2006, 11:02 PM
Frank,

Interesting article - thanks for sharing!

As I said in an earlier post, businesses from what country are footing most of the commercial bill for the Olympics? Probably the USA. While I can't blame the IOC for wanting to cater to the hand that feeds them, if the U.S. TV audience is so important, then maybe its time to have the Games in the U.S. every 4 years, or at least a TV-friendly timezone.

Any soccer fans in the Hizzouse? The coverage of the World Cup this summer was awesome. Germany is 6 hours ahead, and while it was a little wierd watching games at work at 10am, TV showed most games live. And I think audiences were bigger than they ever were.

Bottom line - if TV was such a problem for the IOC, why did they choose China in the first place? Things like this are things that should have been considered before awarding the bid.

craiglll@yahoo.com
November 10th, 2006, 06:23 PM
I think that the iOC had no real choice.
the article is very good read.

Frank Thompson
November 13th, 2006, 03:41 PM
There is some very interesting discussion about this over at the Race Club website. I find what Gary Hall and Nick Brunelli, both National Team members and Gary being a 3 time Olympian, saying interesting things coming from an athlete competitors perspective. I will link the discusion here and see what people think.

http://www.theraceclub.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=676&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

m2tall2
November 20th, 2006, 12:22 PM
I'm sure one of the articles quoted mentions this (As I am a little too lazy to find the one I read it in but I'm pretty sure it was a swimming world article.):

That there have been studies done on the effects of morning finals vs. evening finals and the studies are pretty conclusive that swimmers just do not compete as well in morning finals as evening finals. Now, I can't vouch for the credibility of these studies but it seems pretty plausable to me. The not being able to sleep, bodies not fully functioning until later in the day, extra mental roadblocks from having to wait, not being amped-up from the earlier swim in the day, having a chance for the soreness to set in, etc.

So yes it's about the money but all the evidence currently available does seem to imply this will hurt the ability of swimmers to perform at their lifetime best. It's great that they want it to be prime time but that prime time only benefits the US - and hurts the US swimmers and everyone else in the process.
:2cents:

knelson
November 20th, 2006, 02:09 PM
What time finals are contested just seems like such a gnat's ass concern to the sport overall. I still think the main thing people are upset about is the fact a TV network more or less gets to dictate the schedule. But they've been doing this all along for the major sports. Day games are moved to night and vice versa all the time to fit better into TV schedules and no one seems to get too upset about that. If the swimming community can't deal with something as trivial as this maybe we don't even deserve to be on TV.

The Fortress
November 20th, 2006, 03:06 PM
Great link Frank. I agree with Gary Hall Jr. I don't think it's so "trivial" to be told to re-train your sleeping and competing habits for NBC's benefit. I'm also glad that the medical research helps explain my aversion to early morning exercise. I'd be just as happy watching tape delay and letting the athletes do their thing at night.

knelson
November 20th, 2006, 03:37 PM
I agree with Gary Hall Jr. I don't think it's so "trivial" to be told to re-train your sleeping and competing habits for NBC's benefit.

Since the Games are in Beijing wouldn't they have to retrain their bodies anyway? With the huge time zone difference the U.S. athletes could actually derive some benefit from the morning finals.

The Fortress
November 20th, 2006, 04:08 PM
KirK:

This may be true. But are you saying they should stay on US time or switch to Beijing time? If they re-train their bodies to Beijing time anyway, wouldn't the huge time zone difference benefit be eliminated?

knelson
November 20th, 2006, 06:13 PM
I really think they have to switch to Beijing time just because it would be too hard not to.

Here's a question for those of you out there who think swimming performance is dependent on time of day. When you set your goals for a meet--say Nationals--do you look at when the event is likely to be swum? I know I don't. I assume I'll be able to swim as fast at 8:00 a.m. as I would at 6:00 p.m. You just make the mental and physical adjustments you need to swim fast.

And I know if I can do it, Olympic athletes sure as heck can. I'm always amazed at how fast these swimmers can swim mid-season. They're in the middle of heavy training and are still able to swim incredible times. If they can do that, I really don't see how swimming finals in the morning rather than at night is much of an issue. If there's one thing that separates these people from the herd it's their ability to step up when they need to. Great athletes swim fast in the Olympic finals because they're the Olympic finals, not because they're at night.

The Fortress
November 20th, 2006, 06:41 PM
Here's a question for those of you out there who think swimming performance is dependent on time of day. When you set your goals for a meet--say Nationals--do you look at when the event is likely to be swum? I know I don't. I assume I'll be able to swim as fast at 8:00 a.m. as I would at 6:00 p.m. You just make the mental and physical adjustments you need to swim fast.

I am 100% convinced that I swim better in the afternoon or evening. I get up to go to meets that start at 8:00 am if I have to (although wasn't there a late warm up at nationals this year after the 500s and 400 IMs?). But I'm happier at afternoon meets. Much. I am not a morning person and I am groggy until I have :coffee: in the morning. I actually have tried, for years, to make physical adjustments. Doesn't work for me. So I make them mentally as best I can and swim on less sleep. Aspiring Olympians can hopefully make these adjustments. But Gary Hall Jr. did not sound thrilled about getting up at 4:30 am either.

knelson
November 20th, 2006, 06:51 PM
One other thing I forgot to mention. I think it's a little strange that swimmers are complaining about having to swim in the morning because swimmers are almost legendary for having to roll out of bed at 4:00 or 5:00 a.m. to practice. Yet, for some reason they're concerned racing at 9:00 a.m. is going to hinder their performance?

Frank Thompson
November 29th, 2006, 10:52 AM
Here is some more interesting background information as to the scheduling titled "In scheduling, time is money."

http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2006/11/28/in_scheduling_time_is_money/