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Michael Heather
October 11th, 2006, 09:59 AM
Perhaps I am just a mouth breathing, knuckle dragging neanderthal, but I fail to discern any particular value in the set I was given this morning.

10 times through: 25, 50, 75, 100 on 1:05. Odd sets freestyle, even sets stroke (25 fly, 50 breast, 75 back, 100 free) on 1:15.

There is no connecting thread of interest or challenge in any of the components here, other than to make a 100 free on 1:05 five times, spaced out by a bunch of filler. Kind of a weak argument in a 2500 yd set.

I got out after 4 sets, disgusted or frustrated, I'm not sure which.

Coaches, is this what you are giving because you are afraid people will be too bored with 10 x 100s? Or would you rather they get out early, knowing that you will not change because the "book" says this is a good workout?

osterber
October 11th, 2006, 10:27 AM
10 times through: 25, 50, 75, 100 on 1:05. Odd sets freestyle, even sets stroke (25 fly, 50 breast, 75 back, 100 free) on 1:15.


I'm not a coach, but that sounds like a set that you could have done a lot of different things with.

Sure, you end up doing 5 x 100 on 1:05. That's a challenge.

But, say, for the 50's... if you sprinted each of them and kept them under 30 seconds, that makes for a very different than if you did the 50's holding 45 seconds and floated. If done with that intensity, you'll end up with a lot of lactic acid, and you'll be forced to deal with that lactic acid while trying to get a 100 under 1:05.

-Rick

Paul Smith
October 11th, 2006, 10:52 AM
I agree with Rick.....lots to do with that type of set and very simlar to what John and I did last week.....he however hated it and wanted to go with the 10 x 100s route...

We adapted by doing it as a breath control set; 25's non breath, 50's 2 breaths, 75's & 100's one breath per lap.

I would also have considered making the 25's underwater kick, the 50's drill, the 75's build and the 100 race pace.

Jeff Commings
October 11th, 2006, 11:07 AM
Sometimes, you have to do garbage yardage.

TheGoodSmith
October 11th, 2006, 11:18 AM
I agree Jeff...... sometimes garbage yardage is unavoidable. Even ridiculous yardage in the end is better than sitting on the couch holding the remote... :-) I just tell myself its good I showed up. Maybe one of the sets will be worth a small amount of value. If not, I burned a few calories. Keep in mind the cardinal rule of Master Swimming........ It's not how FAST your are.... its how FAT you are.


John Smith

knelson
October 11th, 2006, 11:21 AM
That set involves a little more standing around than I'd like, but as Rick said it's probably useful if you concentrate on different things for the different distances. We sometimes do a somewhat similar kind of set only we do repeats of, say, a 175 a 200 and a 225 all on the same interval. The interval should be fast enough so the 225 is a real challenge. I think this is a good set. The 175 can be used for recovery, the 200 shouldn't be too challenging, but you won't get a whole lot of rest, and the 225 you'll have to swim fast just to make the interval.

swimr4life
October 11th, 2006, 03:57 PM
I did a similar set yesterday.
It was 100's but they were varied speed.

6X100's descend 1-3 on 1:30 w/the 3rd and 6th for time
400 pull
12X100's descend 1-3 on 1:30 w/ #3,6,9 and 12 for time

Yeah, the #1 of each was not smoking fast but served as a recovery.

The #2 was contolled speed.

The #3 was "controlled bizerk" - "ALL OUT-Feel like you're going to hurl":woot: fast!

It was a GREAT workout for a sprinter like me!

Peter Cruise
October 11th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Michael- while you may have been correct in your self-accusatory preface, the real culprit would be the coach in not giving a task focus to the set; in my experience most will 'buy in' to the set, no matter if difficult, as long as they know where the effort should be. Otherwise, being highly social beasts, we'll fill the abundant rests with chit-chat.

Donna
October 11th, 2006, 08:43 PM
You can make any workout useful or a waist of time, the difference is your attitude and what you put into it. When you are not given much direction or focus, select something you will focus on to make it feel worth while. Set yourself a goal those types of workouts and they can become just as useful as any other one.

Donna:applaud:

Michael Heather
October 12th, 2006, 01:23 AM
Peter is on the right track. The coach puts these sets on a white board and walks away. I have tried to engage him in a dialogue about what is important or what is to be stressed, to which the reply is usually,"it's all important".

Jeff, I know there is plenty of garbage yardage out there and I'm accustomed to doing my share. I just don't want to get stuck with junk because the coach is too lazy or uncommunicative. That is what he gets paid for.

Rick O., I'm not a coach either. I don't think I should be put into that position when I am in the water by the guy who is on the deck.

I am not afraid of doing a hard set, I just don't get the point of some like today, and it is very hard to stay in the water when motivation has been removed by lack of communication.

Paul, I have many times modified sets that don't suit me, but tend to consolidate. I would have turned this into a set of 250s, most likely. But not on the 4:20.

Paul Smith
October 12th, 2006, 09:47 AM
Michael,
The sad truth about masters swimming in my opinion (based on traveling to over 20 states and swimming with dozens of different programs the last few years) is that there are very few coaches truly "engaged" in the program or theyre swimmers needs.

There are exceptions....and these coaches are doing some incredible things: DU, Sun Devil Masters, WCM, Indy, etc. etc are just a few but look at th membership they have built, the nukber of coaches on deck and the variety of wokouts and it becomes very clear.

I will sympathize however with most masters coaches as I also see a very apathetic group of athletes in oir sport as well. The majority of swimmers are there for fitness and reaally only care about getting in theryre yardage....at the expense of learning/changing things that would take them outside theyre comfort zone. I can see why a coach would simply back off on trying to coach when confronted with type of attitude every day.

Last point.....I put the responsibility of being coached on the swimmer...at least in masters. If you are not getting what you want have a discussion with fellow swimmers and see if the feel the same and have a talk with the coach and ask for changes.

newmastersswimmer
October 12th, 2006, 10:20 AM
It's not how FAST your are.... its how FAT you are.

originally posted by the evil one

Ouch John! That one hits a little to close to home for me. How can a guy like you in his mid 40's maintain this sleek 185 pound build anyway? Haven't you ever heard of MMD?? (Middle-Aged Midsection Disease) Why am I soooo afflicted by this disease while guys like you can sit back and pound beer after beer and never gain a pound? ...And a sprinter at that!!....Its simply not fair!!

Newmastersswimmer

Paul Smith
October 12th, 2006, 11:09 AM
Jim, Jim, Jim.....you sooooo have the wrong impression of evil-goodsmith.

First....he canot hold one beer let alone "pounding" of said beverage. :drink:

Second......John is far more concerned with his figure than most 16 year old wanna be anorexic models in NY :rofl:

Third....If you we're married to a beautiful ex Olympian swimmer with 3 gorgeous kids all almost as tall as you before hitting puberty and rail thin and great atheletes....you may feel some "pressure" :hug:

Last.....he's a friggin twitchy jack rabbit who burns calories by the boatload worrying everyday about how he's going to get John Kerry to run for Prez again, get foreigners out of college swimming, and ultmately track the geek down and brand him with a Texas Longhorn tattoo....you'd be thin to carrying these burdens! :dunno: :help:

scyfreestyler
October 12th, 2006, 12:07 PM
about how he's going to get John Kerry to run for Prez again,:


In an effort to benefit the Republican Party? :joker:

MommyCoach
October 12th, 2006, 12:21 PM
Peter is on the right track. The coach puts these sets on a white board and walks away. I have tried to engage him in a dialogue about what is important or what is to be stressed, to which the reply is usually,"it's all important".


That's really sad to hear. I always go over each part of the set with my swimmers! I think they're just used to it by now. New swimmers to the team, if they came from a team where the coach just put up a set and then walked away, boy do they like me! They say, "wow, you explain the set and tell us where we should go hard, and where to go easy and where to work on technique -- THANKS! Your explanations make the swim workout so much more fun and meaningful!"

I like the sound of that set. But I'd never put up a set like that on my workout without first explaining that the emphasis was on the 100 -- and yeah, I agree, I think I'd be more inclined to make the 25 an underwater kick or a no-breather, the 50 a drill, and the 75 a build-to-fast.

But that's not to say that I don't give traditional sets of 10 X 100 -- those are good, too!

Don't get discouraged if your coach doesn't communicate. Just make up your own focus or emphasis - we're adults and in the end, we can decide what we want to do.

TheGoodSmith
October 12th, 2006, 01:27 PM
Hey ! I resemble that remark !

Jim, I have been fighting the same 5 lbs of fat on my gut for the last 8 years. Every time I take it off, it comes right back on.

Note, Bobby Patten will tell you how much beer I can "hold".

John Smith
TheGoodSmith

Peter Cruise
October 12th, 2006, 04:00 PM
If you dig at the coaches who just post & walk, chances are they experienced exactly the same thing while age group swimming. Good role model coaches have a lasting effect: both on future coaches & swimmers who return to masters swimming with a good knowledge of both the technical & physiological objectives of various sets, drills and intensities.

Since I quit swimming at 14 and returned at age 34 (& quickly became addicted) I have learned to assertively question a seemingly unforthcoming coach about the set(s) we have been assigned & sometimes 'trained' them to offer the info without being asked. Occasionally, you find someone who just needs that expression of interest to blossom as a coach.

Donna
October 12th, 2006, 06:45 PM
There are some of us who are very lucky to have the coach that we do. I my case Walt is always working with us on stroke if we are willing to listen. There are those who are there for the yardage and those who are there for fitness.

He tries to give the triathletes what they want, and has given up one lane on Tuesday nights (for sprint, starts and turns) to those of us who are actually competing and setting goals (I am glad not to go to meets by myself any more!) and Walt is really enjoying coaching this core group.

We have even started swimming with his kids team for a few USA meets. Yes I'm the 44 year old who resently swam a relay with 2 14 year olds and a 13 year old and loved it!

Of course when he gives us those IM sets with lots of fly he prefaces his coments with "The kids just love this" and we just have to laugh as we struggle thru but we are getting better every day.

Donna :wave:

newmastersswimmer
October 13th, 2006, 03:45 PM
Jim, Jim, Jim.....you sooooo have the wrong impression of
evil-goodsmith.

originally posted by Paul Smith

Thanks for clarifying all of those points for me Paul...LOL!! I remember an earlier post from John in another thread about Worlds where he said that he was so jacked up on caffiene before one of his races that one of his teammates compared him to the ground hog from the movie "Over The Hedge"....Now it is all making more sense to me...LOL!!


Jim, I have been fighting the same 5 lbs of fat on my gut for the last 8 years. Every time I take it off, it comes right back on.

originally posted by the evil one

Now I know you are truelly pure evil john! 5 pounds eh? Give me a friggin break here!!....I can gain 5 pounds in a day just by thinking about food...LOL!! And you get to be married to some gorgeous babe eh? You really do suk John you know that! (just j/k of course....or not?...LOL!)

Newmastersswimmer

TheGoodSmith
October 13th, 2006, 03:55 PM
I said the "squirrel" not "ground hog" !


John Smith

hofffam
October 13th, 2006, 04:06 PM
Perhaps I am just a mouth breathing, knuckle dragging neanderthal, but I fail to discern any particular value in the set I was given this morning.

10 times through: 25, 50, 75, 100 on 1:05. Odd sets freestyle, even sets stroke (25 fly, 50 breast, 75 back, 100 free) on 1:15.

There is no connecting thread of interest or challenge in any of the components here, other than to make a 100 free on 1:05 five times, spaced out by a bunch of filler. Kind of a weak argument in a 2500 yd set.

I got out after 4 sets, disgusted or frustrated, I'm not sure which.

Coaches, is this what you are giving because you are afraid people will be too bored with 10 x 100s? Or would you rather they get out early, knowing that you will not change because the "book" says this is a good workout?


I was trying to figure out what physiologically this set is supposed to do. This looks almost like a race pace (depending on how hard it is for you to do that 1:05) set with lots of rest broken into 25, 50, and 75. The evens sets are weirder since it is sort of a broken IM but in an sequence that arbitrarily emphasizes backstroke.

If I were given this set I'd ask my coach "why, what's it do?" I know yours wasn't interested in answering that question.

I think the broken IM set could be useful if the strokes were sequenced to stress your weakest, or your favorite stroke.

Sam Perry
October 13th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Pretty mindless set. We get our share here, so I have to improvise.

If I were in that situation, I would try do each swim in under a :55 pace on freestyle and flip over to be under 1:00 pace for backstroke. I would think after the 100 to go right away and do a 25 in under 15 seconds that would make it very difficult.

It really depends on the swimmer and what they can do for themselves. We have some good workouts and some very bad workouts. As little as I get to swim on a weekly basis, I have to make the best out of every practice and not mindlessly do what is written on the board.

The creative thinking does make it fun though.

nkfrench
October 13th, 2006, 06:17 PM
I used to have a coach that would write workouts I didn't understand. At first, I would ask "Can you tell me what we're trying to accomplish so I know how to swim it" but did get a few replies of "Oh, I'm just trying to mix it up to keep it interesting". Then I complained to our program director since he hired the guy.

Once he hired a coach known to be less-than-competant just because he was trash-talking our team on his other coaching gigs and causing us a lot of undeserved bad press in the community. The idea was to hire him so he would quit the talk even if it was at the expense of my group. It seemed to work although it was a rough time.