2 more universities ditch swimming

[The Fortress]

I just heard that two more universities, Rutgers and James Madison, are ditching men's swimming while spending zillions on football and golf. My own alma mater almost cut women's swimming several years ago. They were saved by alumni fundraising, but not until the swim team put itself up for sale on ebay. Endurance sports get no respect. It makes no sense. I thought open water swimming and triathlons and road racing were on the rise even among young kids. If so, why cut all those sports in college? I guess it's still just a miniscule percentage that participate compared to other sports, like my least favorite youth sport -- travel soccer.

[ljlete]

Leslie,

It is true that Rutgers is going to drop Men's Swimming after this year (along with 4 other mens sports and one womens sport). My daughter just started there as a freshman and she didn't consider any schools that didn't have a men's team for a number of reasons including the desire to train with them. She is quite upset. There is additional information at http://www.saverutgersswimming.org/

For all those living in NJ, please let your opinion be known. The Board of Governors will meet tomorrow but it is not clear who, if anyone, will be able to speak. The NJ Assembly Committee on Higher Education will meet next week to discuss the issue. So go to their website: http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/committees/Assembly.asp and let the members of the committee know what you think. Also let your own representative know. Remember that a number of members of the Board of Governors are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the legislature to represent YOU!

I have to be careful here since I am an officer of USMS and I believe that I can't turn this forum into a political vehicle to advocate for something that may turn political. You can guess where I stand, especially after I heard that the AD said that wrestling would be spared because wrestling is a much bigger sport in NJ!

Leo

[Muppet]

2 more examples of how Title IX needs to be updated - How old is that law anyways?! This is truly an unintended byproduct of compliance, and hopefully the NCAA will soon come up with some better compliance measures that do not have adverse effects on the rest of a University's athletic program.

Also, think of this from the perspective of a male athlete at a small school... If you dont play football, basketball has room for only 12 players. After that, sport selection is slim pickings - maybe 1 or 2 others per season - and getting smaller.

If only there were folks hanging around the NCAA Compliance dept who realized that swimming is one of the few sports where most of these collegiate athletes have a successful, popular, widely known amateur arena in which they may continue to showcase their skills for the remainder of their lives.

[ljlete]

Jeff,

Even though the AD claims that Title IX was a factor, Rutgers has never been close to having a Title IX problem. BTW the NCAA doesn't define compliance WRT Title IX. It is the federal government. Now, the NCAA is looking at graduation rates and penalizing those that are not making the grade by taking away scholarships, coaches, post-season appearances amoung other things.

There was mention of "revenue sports". Be careful of how one uses the term. Revenue sports generate income but many do not generate a profit. I believe the Rutgers football team lost a million dollars last year. That amount is greater than the "savings" the dropped sports will provide.

Leo

[TheGoodSmith]

Geek,

I keep tellin' yah.... mens swimming in the US is under attack all the way from the youngest age groupers to the NCAA level. Enrollment is not impressive for males at all levels (especially when compared to the overall population growth since 1970s when you and I grew up). Here's a couple more programs shot out of the sky. Hell, the Big 12 is a joke at the conference meet each year. There's only a few teams left participating.

I find it interesting how the US prides itself every 4 years on the total gold medal count at the Games. Swimming consistently wins more medals than other sports. Yet we have little interest in funding it compared to the Big 3.


John Smith

[The Fortress]

Are there really fewer male age group swimmers nowadays? The swim meets seem to be getting longer where I live... which suggests that enrollment is up. If you're right, it's because those boys are too busy playing the myriad team sports where by age 10 you must practice year round 24/7. Life is just not complete anymore unless you play travel soccer, from what I can tell.

[TheGoodSmith]

Geek and I have argued this point. It may be a regional phenomenon. Here in Colorado the ratio of boys to girls in most of the events can be very lop sided. Sometimes there are as many as 30% more girls in a single event compared to boys. Geek denies there's any problem. Then again, Geek won't come to USMS nationals and face Paul and I for a man to man, beer to beer argument.

John Smith

[aquageek]

In my experience, I definitely agree with GoodSmith or BadSmith above, I can never tell them apart. I do see more girls than boys at meets these days.

I think where SmithAlpha or Beta and I disagree is in the "sky is falling" concern about US swimming.

I will eventually go to a national meet and take my beating like the half man that I am. My last Nationals experience left me humbled and dejected. At least I now know what I'm up against and can prepare better.

[The Fortress]

Geek:

You can always use my "it's too far to travel excuse" or my "I don't like 3 hour time changes" excuse.

I agree that there are more girls than boys at meets especially in the younger age groups. But I still think interest is up in the sport where I live (outside DC). I had to wait 5 years to get into my own neighborhood summer league swim club!

From my observations, if there are fewer boys, it is because boys in elementary school just don't like swimming very much. It's tedious. They swim up and down the lanes. It's mostly indoors. It requires hard work and inflicts pain. I've had many boys tell my 6th grade daughter that they just don't like USS swimming very much. They'd rather play travel soccer, the only sport that seems to matter here.

[aquageek]

This game called soccer is very popular with the boys, or the boys around here anyway. But, let me tell you, you want to see some grumpy parents, ask a soccer parent about the time committment required. I think I'll shoot myself if soccer ever comes up at my house.

I have a secret theory on soccer, which I will make public. Basically, all kids can run around in a pack and flail wildly at a ball, from day one. Swimming, like some other skill based sports, requires a good deal of practice. You can't just jump in and go for it, unlike soccer.

Now, before all the mini van drivin' crazy soccer moms start getting on my case, I'm only talking about base skill, not advanced skills. I realize it takes a lot of work to be good at soccer, but not as much as is required with swimming, sorry.

[The Fortress]

I am, whoops WAS, a travel soccer parent. But I refuse to drive a mini-van.

There are some parents that grumble about the time commitment. I wasn't particularly fond of it myself. But, in my experience, I have found parents love travel soccer, they clamor around to get their kids on the best teams even if they have to drive forever. They know every team's record, how many goals have been scored against them the last calendar year and the team's national ranking. (I ask you, how can you meaningfully rank a soccer team with 10-11 year old girls?!).

But to be good at soccer, you do have to practice a lot. The girls on my daughter's FORMER team are up to 4-5 practices a week and mandatory away camps in the summer. They now have mandatory Sat. morning video sessions where they review tapes and talk strategy. Daily juggling is not negotiable. I could go on. Suffice it to say, this year we reached the breaking point and my daughter picked swimming. My younger daughter will never play travel soccer as a result of the torture inflicted on me from that sport. I'm sure I'll be in trouble with other soccer moms too.

[aquageek]

All I have to do is read your post a few more times the next time I complain about a 4 hour swim meet for my kids. Thanks for the information, must be the same all over.

With soccer, at what age do they teach the kids to act like they were shot by a cannon and whine to the refs every time an opposing team player gets within 2 feet of them?

[dorothyrde]

I am, whoops WAS, a travel soccer parent. But I refuse to drive a mini-van.

There are some parents that grumble about the time commitment. I wasn't particularly fond of it myself. But, in my experience, I have found parents love travel soccer, they clamor around to get their kids on the best teams even if they have to drive forever. They know every team's record, how many goals have been scored against them the last calendar year and the team's national ranking. (I ask you, how can you meaningfully rank a soccer team with 10-11 year old girls?!).

But to be good at soccer, you do have to practice a lot. The girls on my daughter's FORMER team are up to 4-5 practices a week and mandatory away camps in the summer. They now have mandatory Sat. morning video sessions where they review tapes and talk strategy. Daily juggling is not negotiable. I could go on. Suffice it to say, this year we reached the breaking point and my daughter picked swimming. My younger daughter will never play travel soccer as a result of the torture inflicted on me from that sport. I'm sure I'll be in trouble with other soccer moms too.

Not a soccer mom, although my son played 3 years in HS(the bus took him to away meets, not me), but the time commitment for swimming is just as deep. Driving in from out of town 4-5 days a week, 3 day swim meets, with a minimum drive of 2 hours, because there just are not a lot of meets close, except our own. Spending 12 hours *3 days running our own meets. From what I see of soccer clubs and swimming clubs, pretty comparable on the time spent. And there are the swim moms, who know every competitor in their child's age group too, so again comparable.

And to the subject at hand, one reason my son quit swimming was because the Universities he considered did not have men's swimming, so he did not see the point to continue the hard work, and chose other things to occupy his time. I hope someday he will do masters and swim a relay with me, because he would be quite good in Masters.

[hofffam]

I have no axe to grind for soccer. My kids all played it for several years. My two boys followed the typical path for swimmers - summer league for two years, start year round, now in high school. In general I favor any active sports for our otherwise fat population.

I think the bigger problem is inactivity. We're not losing male swimmers to soccer or basketball. We're losing them to TV, video games, etc.

My sons' high school swim team has 14 boys, 23 girls. One interesting thing is that there are more "fast" boys than girls based on swimming ability. Many of the girls are mediocre swimmers and seem to be on the team as much for the social aspects as the athletics. At least one or two are swimming to keep their weight down.

Back to boys - I think USA Swimming is naive if they think they don't have a problem attracting boys to the sport. I'm not sure they think that. But I think we need to do much much more. We need more visibility for the sport. Phelps, Crocker, Peirsol, Cullen Jones, are all great for the sport. We need to do more to promote how fantastic swimming is - you CAN become rich and famous as a swimmer.

This is a possibly politically incorrect statement - but I think they should find a nice way to highlight how nice it is to train with attractive girls wearing lycra. Keep more older boys in the sport! Just an example of things they can do....

These swimmers, and their parents, are the ones who will stay fans of swimming and give colleges a reason to think twice before they cancel another men's program.

[dorothyrde]

This is a possibly politically incorrect statement - but I think they should find a nice way to highlight how nice it is to train with attractive girls wearing lycra. Keep more older boys in the sport! Just an example of things they can do....

.

This was one of the pluses my son gave for staying with the sport, when he was weighing his options!

Leslie, I never was around the year round soccer parents, and the High School soccer parents were very nice. Most swim parents are nice, but there are always a few nuts in any sport.

[dorothyrde]

Yeah, I was thinking Michael Phelps attracts the female swimmer more than the male. There are quite a few really cute swimming girls. I think the boys would have to be blind not to notice them!

[hofffam]

Dorothy:

I'm so glad your son likes swimmer-girls! I have actually heard some teenage boys say they don't find female athletes attractive, particularly female swimmers with their big ole shoulders. Disgraceful.

Unfortunately, I think Hoffam is right for another reason. "Rich and famous" and "on TV" seems to be the standard for sport popularity. Maybe Michael Phelps will help. Although I still see more girls reading his new book than boys....


I helped indoctrinate my boys about swimmer girls! I always liked them, even with broad shoulders. Not the 70s-era East Germans though.

No muffin tops on the girls my boys seem to like.....

I do think many girls like the looks of swimmer boys. They like lean bodies with broad shoulders and bleached out hair.

[dorothyrde]

I helped indoctrinate my boys about swimmer girls! I always liked them, even with broad shoulders. Not the 70s-era East Germans though.

No muffin tops on the girls my boys seem to like.....

I do think many girls like the looks of swimmer boys. They like lean bodies with broad shoulders and bleached out hair.

That was my boy, now his hair is a lot darker, it was white blonde.

[The Fortress]

What's a "muffin top?"

More importantly, as to John Smith's point, why is it that everyone in the US loves and watches swimming during the Olympics, but is utterly disinterested in it any other time?

P.S. Swimmer boys are very cute. So are crew jocks (my husband).

[dorothyrde]

What's a "muffin top?"

More importantly, as to John Smith's point, why is it that everyone in the US loves and watches swimming during the Olympics, but is utterly disinterested in it any other time?

P.S. Swimmer boys are very cute. So are crew jocks (my husband).

Muffin top - think low waisted jeans that are too tight and blub hanging over like the top of a muffin over the tin.:D

[lapswimmr]

I get it and don't get it. The schools must have swim facilities a capitol investment. They must have guards and a swim coach. I guess they will not dump all that ,there still will be swim classes and exercise. You must mean they will not support travel and expenses to swim meets with other schools to compete. I can understand that theres a lot of money on football /basketball in college sports because there are lots of sports gamblers and the media coverage is what generates the money. I understand that there are lots of people who watch televised sports that just love the game but to tell you the truth if it were not for sports gambling in all the ways it exists (football pools ect) there probably would be no great intrest in sports in this country after high school. Think of all the attention to beepers/cell phones/ ect that can provide game scores..like its a big deal. I could care less for all that but it is big in this country and lots of people have money riding on a game, thats why they watch and the media gives such attention. Swimming is not a betting sports game.. now think about that a minute and you know it could be except it would be a betting game that would be too easy to "throw" (payback to swim slow example) so there no betting intrest. Now to prove what I am saying look at this. Football stadiums are pretty full on game days, football is in a sense todays "Americas Sport" so there are today lots of people who enjoy a day at the stadium to cheer on the home team, ..basketball stadiums may look full but how many people do they actually hold.. the fans there are real and enjoy the game, but a much smaller crowd then the football stadium..I mean how big is a basketball court in size? And a coiuple thousand people there will look huge on TV. Now the baseball stadium is big like a football stadium and look at the games on TV and... see a few people there..lots of empty seats, thats ok..the gamblers can still get their scores from the web/TV / radio ect..and thats where the money is.
Now maybe you can understand why some colleges are dropping swimming as a team sport. No sports gambler intrest.. no media coverage.. no money to be made. Hey .. maybe theres a way to turn that around.... Lane 1 is off a tenth lane two is closing, lane 6 is ...just like the horse races.. cept like I said, Its too easy to "throw".. but keep thinking..theres got to be a way.

[dorothyrde]

Peggy, at the University of Illinois and at Illinois State where my son goes, the pool facilities are owned and run by the campus recreation departments. The swim teams have to rent for this department. So if the swim team is discontinued, it just means the rec department rents it out to some one else, or sells more lap swim and swim lesson time to others. So when they discontinue the program, the school does not blink twice.

[lapswimmr]

I thought they would not close the pools. Thats a strange budget they have. Renting the college pool to the to the colleges own swim team. I see why you are upset with them. The swim team should be a part of their standard sports program.

I did see that the US passed a law over internet gambling today outlawing it and making banks responsible for the oversight.. Thats a 6 billion dollar a year "business" and a lot of it is sports related. I dont know what impact that will be having on some non mainstream sports because as I have said without the gambling the intrest to see the sport will not be as great. football/baseball/basketball/Nascar racing/golf will all be fine I predict.

Leslie the Olympics are only every 4 years and its natiolnal pride to see the USA win the gold in every kind of sport. Other then the Olympics your right not much intreast by the media in swimming for reasons I gave and some other reasons.

[dorothyrde]

What is really bad right now is the U of I has their big 50 meter pool closed for 2 years, renovating it. So the women's team had to rent outside the U of I to get pool time. The pool they rented had a fire in July so it is closed waiting for a part. They are driving to another town 45 minutes away to practice. In September, they practiced outdoors at a local country club, and it was one of the coldest Septembers we have had in a long while.

[hofffam]

lapswimmr - I think your assocation of gambling as a driver to keep football (etc.) going is simply wrong. Yes there is gambling, both legal and not for football, basketball, but the vast majority of college football fans are simply students, alumni, and parents of students, and very few gamble. What keeps football going is ticket sales and TV. The University of Texas athletic department has a $95M annual budget, second only to Ohio State. The stadium seats 80,000+ and it is sold out for every game at ~ $70 per seat. Two-thirds of their games are televised. They have luxury suites (I've been in them) at more than $20,000 per year plus the cost of tickets.

There is a ton of money unrelated to gambling in these sports. UT's very successful swimming program is probably a huge money-loser. Eddie Reese is justifiably one of the best paid coaches around, but he probably earns no more than $150-$200K plus what he makes running swimming camps. That wonderful pool costs a bunch to keep running.

People will bet on anything - elections, academy awards, and it doesn't keep these activities going. I bet the UT athletic director doesn't care what Las Vegas is doing.

UT can afford to keep men's swimming because of the huge cash flow from football and basketball. If UT decided to charge admission to swim meets, attendance would drop from a few hundred to a few dozen.

I'm not picking on UT or praising them. I just happen to live in Austin and am forced to read and hear about them constantly.

[craiglll@yahoo.com]

First, when I was a sophamore, at the time thats when I hometown started high school, I took my life guard training. We were paired boy-girl. I was assigned to a senior who was tall & blond and very intelligent and a great swimmer. I was skinny, frightened and was sure it would end horribly. It did.

Secondly, back to the topic. The editor's message this month in Swimming World is about Rutgers. One of my brothers in law's family mostly went to Rutgers. There is a dorm with their last name on it. He didn't go there though.

I wonder what effect closing all of these university swimming programs will have on swimming in about 5 to 10 years. Will we go the way of Australia and have some swimming in colleges but mostly clubs? We seem to be moving that way with so many top level college swimmers staying in swimming now after they graduate. Or will private universities and small liberal arts colleges take it over? Already I know many high school guys who had parents who swam in college who have never swam.

[geochuck]

Those East German girls were genetically guys and should have been swimming in mens events. Like the guys who are genetically female can now compete in womens events. I am wondering would could they compete as both.

[lapswimmr]

As my post stated football is "Americas Sport" , yes theres gambling there, and as I stated lots of people who love the game who are not gamblers. My main point is there is no gambling intrest in swimming , so little media coverage . Its great that colleges fund swimming teams because as you point out they make no money like the football team. We all know they give a lot of college students a chance to compete in a team sport, it is unfortunate that some colleges are dropping the swim team sponsership. It does not add up to a well rounded athletic program and takes away from the colleges stature.

[hofffam]

lapswimmr - gambling doesn't drive media interest in football! I think you are wrong. Gambling drives SOME interest in many sports. But I think media is both a leader and a follower with coverage of any particular sport. If fans (and advertisers) get interested, the media will follow. When the media covers a sport well, fan interest will grow.

Most major college athletic departments are treated as independent organizations with their own finances. They sell tickets, advertising, share TV revenue, raise alumni donor money, etc. and spend money as they see fit. They have to abide by many rules including the NCAA, the federal government, etc.

The Title IX "problem" isn't really a budget problem for many football schools. It is a scholarship problem. Football programs generally have up to 85 athletes on scholarships - and they are full scholarships. Add basketball, baseball, etc. and the school must have more women's sports to balance the scholarship count. Most swimmers earn partial scholarships. That's why a team with 9.9 scholarships has 20 or more on the roster.

I'm a football AND swimming fan and hate to see men's swimming suffer. I've believed for some time that football would not suffer significantly if the number of scholarships was reduced from 85. I think the revenue side of football really wouldn't change.

[Matt S]

Why do people watch swimmming during the Olympics, but not the other three years? Because it is well produced.

First, swimming is part of the Olympic package of nation versus nation, and counting the medals, that we all find so compelling. If there was a tiddlewinks competition with an American having a chance to medal, we'd all care about tiddlewinks. In contrast, some of us wouldn't give a rat's rear-end about basketball, except in the Olympics.

Second, the coverage is way more interesting than the meet because it is edited to show only the dramatic parts. Forget about slogging through all those prelim heats, or seeing uninterrupted coverage of the 1500 final. Moreover, we don't get 2 mind-numbing hours of swimming. Instead we get 5-10 minutes of the 100 fly, then an hour of the other sports, then 5-10 more minutes of the 200 back, etc. (In fact, it's a dirty little network trick to NOT tell you exactly when each sport will be up, so we have to sit still for the tiddlewinks competition if we don't want to miss our favorite sport.)

The first step of building interest and popularity in swimming as a spectator sport would start with how to make coverage of it more compelling and watchable.

Matt

[Muppet]

Most of Olympic sports dont see much action the other 3 years. But who really cares about curling?

Aside from the massive drama, most of the races in the Olympics are over too fast - same for swimming. Hold on - what about those distance events! Here's raising a glass to the 400s and 800/1500 free!!