View Full Version : New England SCM Challenge

October 11th, 2002, 09:02 AM
Attention all regional championship meet directors! This message comes from the capital of master racing--New England. Here in the upper right hand of the U.S. our members participate in competitons at rate of close to 50%. This year, we are putting out a challenge to all other parts of the country for this year's SCM season. We propose to score our 2002 New England Short Course Meters Competition, scheduled for December 14-15th against all other regional SCM competitions to determine regional bragging rights for SCM Regional Team Championship. SPMA has already accepted the challenge and will go head-to-head against New England.

Here's how it works: We will take results file from all participating regional USMS sanctioned SCM championship meets held from October 1st through December 31st of this year. We will treat ever participant in that meet as a member of one "regional team" and score to the 16th place by age group (relays score twice the number of points and will also be scored to the 16th place). We will include all individual events through the 1500 m and all realys through the 800m. We will present results in two different ways: 1) Virtual SCM Championship and 2) Bilateral Regional meets (NE vs SPMA, for example).

Here's how you can participate: Send me an email "registering" your regional championship in this contest. We plan to score this meet using Hy Tek so we ask that people provide appropriate Hy Tek file.

Why are we doing this?

Over the years, we've learned that getting people to participate in competition keeps them swimming masters longer. New England's membership really took off when we created large regional championship meets with LOTS OF RELAYS. This made the meet fun for everyone and first-time competitors find relays the least intimidating way of getting into the racing spirit. We believe the regional championships are the key to getting USMS membership growth up to 25% range and getting our membership retention rate over 80%- that has been our four year average rate in both categories here in New England.

More information on the New England meet can be found at:


How can you help?

I need a good list of regional SCM championship meets (I do have the list from the USMS calendar but it's not complete) and also need the email contacts for people, other than meet directors, who can help promote this in their region

Bob Seltzer
NEM Championship Meet Coordinator

October 11th, 2002, 08:20 PM
Ok Bob

We are not a regional meet, and there is NO time to get people really involved as Pacific Masters began last weekend - (the 1500 was last week) and the remainder of the events will be this weekend, but I will send you the results in an SDIF file. This will allow your swimmers to know what times they have to shoot for. :cool:

When planning this, how many events can the swimmers enter? Pacific will only allow seven events per contestant, eight if they swam the 1500 last weekend. The results of the 1500 are already posted.

Capital of Masters racing I see in total membership Pacific and New Englad share the same most significant number "1". Pacific just crossed the 10,000 member milestone. We look forward to New England having the same number of total swimmers in their LMSC as Pacific had competing last year- about 2,000:cool:

have good meet - BTW when are you going to have 2003 short course yards championships?

have a good meet

michael moore, chairman
Pacific Masters Swimming

October 11th, 2002, 11:54 PM
...and I hope that the both of you will also forward your SDIF files to me to post in the USMS database. We had a GREAT LCM season. If we can get responses from the big meets such as the two of yours represent, we can also have a GREAT SCM season of results.

Thanks in advance....

Mel Dyck

October 13th, 2002, 09:14 PM

Paul Smith
October 14th, 2002, 05:14 PM
Rumor has it that the newly slimmed down, fast swimming Bill is actually "swimer4rent" from this forum. My guess is you guys are going to need to bid on this one!

Bill Volckening
October 14th, 2002, 05:34 PM
Dan - public slap on the wrist for the bad joke ::SMACK::

October 15th, 2002, 01:29 AM
Ok the results of the 2002 Pacific Masters Championships have been posted on the Pacific Masters web site:

At the web site you can download the sdif file as well downing loading the results in a more readable format.

About 300 Pacific Masters swam at the championships (about 3% of Pacific's swimming population - but would be 20% of New Englands). There were 15 world records broken (Margery Meyer 6, Laura Val 5, Aldo Da Rosa 2 and Margery Sharpe 2), 24 National Records broken and 65 Pacific records broken. Looking forward to seeing the dual meet results.


October 15th, 2002, 10:23 AM
We're off to a pretty good start with Pacific Masters and Northwest joining SPMA and NEM. We still hope that several more regional meets will join us. (Mel Goldstein--are you out there?)

Under the rules of engagement, if Bill Volckening elects to swim in your regional meet he belongs to your team.

Michael: Congratulations on reaching the 10,000 mark. At our current growth rate of 20% we should reach 2,000 in 2003 or 2004. We are pretty much accepting different rules for different meets in terms of entries/events. For example, in NE we do allow people to enter up to five event per day for 10 events per individual. We also are not offering the 800m or 1500m this year due to time constraints.

We do hope to repeat this challenge in some form for 2003 and will initiate discussions on this topic right around the New Year.

Re 2003 NE SCY Championships: Not scheduled yet but hope to finalize in next several weeks. We might also try a virtual dual meet in real-time via the webcam. You'll note that 3 of the regional SCM meets are the same weekend this year (NEM, NW and SPMA).

October 15th, 2002, 11:32 AM

I downloaded the SDIF file with the intention of putting it into the USMS searchable database. However, there is a formatting problem with it as it now stands. The date header (the 'B11' line near the top of the file) has the meet coded with a 'Y' at the end. This is the code normally reserved for a SCY meet. Similarly, all the times are followed by a 'Y' indicating the same course distance. In both cases there should be an 'S' for short course meters. I'm nervous about loading in this file because I'm not sure how the database will interpret it. Is there any chance of getting a corrected version? Unfortunately, for me to correct the file would mean changing each one by hand -- I can't easily do a search on 'Y' and do a simple replace since some names have 'Y' in them.

Thanks for the help....

Mel Dyck

October 15th, 2002, 01:15 PM

†hanks for pointing it out. The sdif formate is pretty arcane and I am glad you are up on it.

I have emailed the person who did the computer work to ask if he made a mistake saying it was a SCY meet instead of a SCM meet. Or it could be a problem with the program. I dont know which problem it is.

In looking at the pattern, it looks like there is a time followed by "y" should be changed to time followed by s (d:dd.ddy -> d:dd.dds). If there is a grep guru out there who can give is the grep pattern match (Rich are you out there?), we can make the change.

sorry for the inconvience.


October 15th, 2002, 03:11 PM
Just a brief note to say that swimR4Rent (tm) is avaible for hire to LMSCs and regions!* Remember, that swimR4Rent (tm) is a highly trained and versatile resource for your convenience. We have recently expanded so that we serve *all* age groups and genders.** We will swim *all* events and courses!**

Contact us!

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*there is a small additional surcharge for outdoor meets in the D.C. area, until further notice.

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October 15th, 2002, 10:21 PM
A grep pattern would be difficult to come up with conclusively... because in the SDIF file, you need to check the course for the pool, and also make sure that all of the times are flagged "Y" for all of the various times (such as trials and finals, etc.).

With perl, you could probably do something like:

perl -pie 's/(:[0-9][0-9]\.[0-9][0-9])Y/$1S/g' <filename>

That would probably get you close. But as I say, there are I think codes in the meet info header that say what course the pool was, etc.

It may be easier to just get the original Hy-Tek file, and change the meet setup and the events from SCY to SCM, and just re-score each of the events. That would certainly be "safer" I think.


October 15th, 2002, 10:54 PM

Thanks for the grep expression. I brought the file into BBEdit modified the basic expression (I was not using PERL) and made the change. I also made a change in the header.

Mel, review this file, then I would back up your file then import this file and see if it works.

As the file was not generated by Hy-Tek, I could not bring it into Hy-Tek to make the corrections. I have notified the person who ran the program of the problem. I dont know if the problem was in not setting up the meet correctly or if it is a program problem.

Again Rick thanks for the basic expression.


October 15th, 2002, 11:39 PM

the changes to the file did the trick. The meet results are now in the USMS database.

Thanks very much for the help.


October 16th, 2002, 11:52 AM

do you want non-regional meets as well? Arizona annually hosts a pretty fair SCM meet & this year's meet is expected to draw some good talent from CA, although it's not a zone meet. I expect to have a copy when it's done.

Also, as a part of my responsibility for tracking down results for the USMS database, I'll get copies of others.

Let me know what is of interest.


October 16th, 2002, 01:04 PM
Aren't ALL meets, technically, "regional"? The participants come from a "region" that may be large or small. Might be an LMSC or a ZONE or a state or a neighborhood.

Until and unless the Virtual Meet Director defines what "regional" means, it would be logical to include all SCM meets in the input stream.

Question: Will the person who swims in multiple "Regional Championships" during this period end up "representing" multiple "teams"? Though, since this is an informal virtual meet there are no USMS affiliation considerations. Never mind.

Brad Biddle
October 16th, 2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by meldyck
... do you want non-regional meets as well? Arizona annually hosts a pretty fair SCM meet & this year's meet is expected to draw some good talent from CA, although it's not a zone meet. ...

One tidbit along these lines: looking at last year's results of the AZ SCM meet, in one particular event that interests me--the 30-34 mens 800 free--even the fourth place swimmer swam a USMS Top Ten time. It would be a shame not to get swims like this into the proposed virtual meet, IMHO.


October 17th, 2002, 12:37 PM
A "regional" meet includes state, regional (New England) and Zone meets. We are most interested in getting most of these meets, including AZ. AND we'll make sure that the results get submitted to Mel for the USMS database.

October 23rd, 2002, 10:13 AM
NEM proclaimed first ever "mythical" 2001 SCM Champion. In a very creative application of database technology and Hy Tek software, Ed Gendreau of NEM, with the help of Pieter Cath, Esther Lyman, and Louise Valois have created a "mythical" 2001 SCM National Championship based on top ten times.

To view the results and associated data go to:


Points were awarded based on the results of the USMS 2001 SCM National Top Ten Times. The top ten individual swims in each age group event were scored in the following sequence: 11, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Double points were awarded for relays. To view the USMS top ten times see the following link: http://www.usms.org/swimgold/tt/age/

The data analysis proves another point, easily observed at USMS Nationals, that current age group racing format eliminates some very competitive racing across age groups. For example, the mythical SCM Championship for the Women's 100 free would include swimmers from ages 23-38 and the winner would be: Tracy Moll at age 38 beating out her competitor Emily Wang who is 15 years younger.

Based on distribution of "all-in" top ten times the fastest age groups were Women 35-39 and Men 30-34 --interestingly enough there was almost an even distribution of top ten times from ages 25-39 for both genders. Wouldn't a nationally recognized "all-in" ages competition be great publicity for masters swimming?

Looking towards the close of the SCM Season, NEM will defend it's mythical SCM title on December 14-15 as well as take on all comers in the regional SCM Championship Team Competition against Pacific Masters, Southern Pacific Masters, Norwest Zone, Great Lakes Zone and Arizona State meet. Other regional meet directors are invited to participate (see above for details)

October 31st, 2002, 12:39 PM
One month down and two months to go in the NEM SCM Challenge. This is a challenge to all regional SCM championship meets to submit your results and see who can claim bragging rights to the title of "epicenter of aquatics competition for masters." Pacific Masters (LSMC), Arizona Masters (State) and GRIN (multi-LMSC) have all completed their respective regional championship meet. Pacific Northwest (Zone) and Southern Pacific Masters (Zone) and New England (LMSC) will compete the weekend of December 13-15th. Other regional SCM meets held between October 1st through December 31st can participate by sending an email to me at: seltzer@metasoft.com

Meanwhile, here in New England we are rallying the troops for victory. We know that we are badly outnumbered by Pacific Masters (10,000) Southern Pacific (2,500) and GRIN (2,600 from the combined LMSC that participate) but will strive through teamwork and organization to prevail. As a boost to our hopes, our very own Greg Shaw set 3 world records at a tune-up mini-meet at Northeastern (see related story at www.swiminfo.com) We expect to set several more world records at forthcoming mini-meet at Portsmouth on November 10th. But we will ultimately defeat our much more numerous foes not through superlative individual performance but via mass participation.

It's still not too late to participate in the excitement of a NE championship meet. For more information go to: http://www.greatbaymasters.org/gbmmeets.html

Good luck to all competitors.

November 1st, 2002, 12:41 PM
Southern Masters SCM Championship has joined our challenge. For more information on this regional SCM championship to be held weekend of December 6-8th contact John E. Roth, Jr. at: E-mail address "jerothjr@cox.net".

We now have 7 participating regional championships!

November 12th, 2002, 12:50 AM
Arizona has completed its SCM State Championships. While we are only a tenth the size of Pacific, we were able to post more records of every type with 19 World, 28 National and 83 Arizona records broken, thus making this the fastest meet of the year (so far).

Due to a bit of rain, we were only able to complete the 200 free relays, so we may have a bit of trouble completing against the many relays of New England.

Complete results of the meet are posted at www.sundevilmasters.org under results.

Good luck to the other teams yet to swim.

Mark Gill

November 12th, 2002, 04:51 PM
Congratulations to Arizona for putting on a very fast meet. Looks like they'll give Pacific Masters some pretty good competition in this first very virtual SCM championshipo.

We've also received results from the Greater Indiania Classic another participant in the NEM SCM Challenge.

Meanwhile, NEM continues to get ready for its SCM Championship in mid-December. At Sunday's mini-meet in Portsmouth, NH, NEM set 2 World and 1 USMS National record. For more information see the story at: www.swiminfo.com

Attention all SCM Championship Meet directors. There's still time to participate in the NEM SCM Challenge. Simply send me an email and we'll sign you up.

Also, it's not too late to participate in the NE 2002 SCM Championship on December 14-15th. For more information go to:


Robin Parisi
November 13th, 2002, 05:53 PM
Bob: A question about scoring for the virtual championship. If swimmers from several different LMSCs and/or differenct clubs combine to form a relay at one the the participating scm events, do the results of that relay count for scoring the virtual event (even though they would not count, for instance, for records)?

Gail Roper
November 13th, 2002, 06:23 PM
Just how do you score these meets? It seems about half the world records in the Arizona meet were set by swimmers from othr LMSC's. Do they count for Arizona? And if those same swimmers swim in their own LMSC, do they count again? Who is doing the record keeping?

November 13th, 2002, 06:37 PM
The devil is in the details.

From a technical point of view we are going to simply take all results in the correct format and score them in Hy Tek. Since everyone who participates in a regional meet will be considered from one team I believe that Hy Tek will take the relays and not check the team affiliation (this is pending my expert's input).

If regional meet directors want to massage their Hy Tek files to allow such relays (danger, danger, don't try to submit them for Top ten) then we aren't going to the trouble of eliminating them.

So, it's possible---and while not legal certainly consistent with the purpose of this challenge which is to get more people to participate in regional meets.


Inter-Club, inter-LMSC relays do not count towards world records. However, they may help in the regional bragging rights competition.

For what it's worth, 90% of the NEM relays at SCM competition will be composed of NEMs who swim at the same pool (local workout group)--that's because we also have a very intense intra-NEM competition among some 40+ local pools. All of the relays at the NE meet will be legal under USMS rules (all members belong to the same club).

We have already received the Arizona, GRIN, Walnut Creek and Dixie Zone meets and I don't believe any have such inter-Club or inter-LMSC meets.

Phil Arcuni
November 13th, 2002, 08:16 PM
It is not really a competition between regions, zones, or LMSCs, but a competition between meets. A meet that pulls many quality swimmers from all over will do better than a meet limited to local swimmers.

December 19th, 2002, 11:14 AM
Please note the following regarding the 2002 NE SCM Championships:


On the weekend of December 14th-15th at the Balfour Natatorium of Wheaton College in Norton, MA, more than 400 masters swimmers throughout the region came together for the 2003 New England Short Course Meters Championship to race and have fun . Sponsored by New England Masters (NEM), this year’s meet broke previous attendance records and was also the scene of some very fast swimming as six new USMS/FINA world records and 12 USMS national records were broken. Complete results can be found at: http://www.greatbaymasters.org/02scmchamp.html


This year, NEM instigated the first every virtual SCM national championship. We’ve been receiving meet results from around the country thanks to the effort of different meet directors and the coordinated push by Mel Dyck. We will combine all of these results into one large meet file and score, down to the 16th place, each regional meet as members of one team (e.g. New England versus Pacific Masters). Any SCM meets held from October 1st through December 31, 2001 will be eligible. So far we’ve received results from:
Pacific Masters LMSC , Arizona State Championships, Indiana and Great Lakes Zones, Dixie Zones, Southern Masters LMSC, Southern Pacific Masters Zone and hope to receive results from the Pacific Northwest Zones and Colonies Zones. We expect to process the results next month. Prospects for New England victory look good since based on the information received to date we have at least 60% more splashes than the other meets.

We hope to have the results processed in mid-January


NEM recorded 1.7 million yards in 2002. That was 25% of all yards swum by USMS teams. NEM is less than 4% of USMS membership. This year we're aiming for 2.0 million .


The 2003 SCY Championship will be held at Harvard’s Blodgett Pool in Cambridge, MA. Once again, we have the unsurpassed talents of Rick Osterberg, Stephanie Morwaski and others from Cambridge Masters running this meet. Well feature on-line results and live webcam broadcast. This year, we drew 670 participants. Next year, we expect between 700 -800 participants. We have expanded the meet into four days. Please note the following dates:

2003 SCY Championship
Saturday March 22nd 1000 and 1650 only
Fri March 28-Sun March 30 All other events

A meet information sheet and entry form will be ready next month.

Gail Roper
December 19th, 2002, 11:35 AM
What team do swimmers belong to who swim in two different regional meets?

December 19th, 2002, 11:48 AM

This will no doubt be the case given that we are including LMSC, State and Zone Championships. One proposal is to take the fastest swim (this is consistent with the approach taken in the "mythical" SCM championships based on top ten). We need to discuss the practicality of this or other proposed solutions before we report back to the group.


December 19th, 2002, 08:46 PM
Expanding on Gail's question, how do you take into account swimmers who participated in three or even more of the zone championships this year? Since one of the burning questions seems to be the total attendence count, would not such a one be counted in each?

Maybe there are other considerations. e.g., Any thought to a scoring system that did not take account of relay participants?
In addition, of course, to the system that does take relays into account.

December 20th, 2002, 08:56 AM
We'll take into account your suggestion and report back in January. Re scoring. When Ed Gendreau scored the "mythical" SCM Championship he did show the results both with and without relays. So I expect we'll do the same. You are right that the whole purpose of this exercise is not to determine which region is the "fastest" but which region is able to get more people to participate in a regional championship meet and especially to encourage people to swim lots of relays. We're trying to develop a "regional team" identity in other parts of the country. We think the team aspect of swimming provides another motivator for people to swim and have fun.

February 22nd, 2003, 06:47 PM
I am just curious, it is Washingtons Birthday, 2003, almost the END of Feburary. I thought that we were going to have the virtual 2002 SCM championship scored by now. What is happening?

Everyone wants to know the results. Maybe NEM is still adding some relays to be scored :-) .

I look forward to seeing the results of the virtual SCM championship from the mythical center of Masters Swimming. :-)


February 24th, 2003, 09:01 AM
It's been sitting on my desk. It proved to be a lot harder than I originally thought to merge everything together. I thought I could do it in Hy-Tek Meet Manager... but that proved to be impossible. And two of the participating meets didn't have Meet Manager results (only SDIF files), so it would have been impossible to merge those results in.

New England Masters recently acquired a copy of Hy-Tek Team Manager, which I think may do the job... it should at least aggregate the results. I may still need to write something to apply a scoring to those aggregates. It's still mighty cumbersome to go through and change all of the data so that each "meet" appears instead as a "team", while making sure results don't get lost or deleted, etc.

The other problem is that I'm personally running four championship meets over the next five week-ends (since the NEM SCY meet is two week-ends long), so things have been busy.... not to mention my day job.

I hope to take another stab at this next week sometime.