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swimmerlisa
October 20th, 2006, 04:17 PM
What kind of turns are you all doing for back to breast in IM? A touch and go or the touch and then flip? Which do you feel is faster?

Jeff Commings
October 20th, 2006, 04:28 PM
The "touch and flip" is quicker. But it requires a lot of breath control, because you're underwater for about six seconds in the middle of a race. It's just as hard as doing dolphin kicks at the end of a backstroke race.

The only difficulty people have with it is doing it legally. Many turn beyond 90 degrees. But it's always a judgment call. Personally, I think the stroke judge needs to stand directly over you to determine if you're past vertical. Watching from the side is NOT an accurate viewpoint. But experienced stroke judges might think differently.

I learned how to do the IM turn in Colorado Springs, at 6,000 feet, so my lungs were prepared when I did it for the first time in a race.

I would advise you to find someone who knows how to do the turn to guide you through executing it step-by-step. There is a great process to learn it, but it would take a lot of explaining. Showing each step works better.

swimmerlisa
October 20th, 2006, 04:34 PM
Thanks Jeff - I learned that turn a few years ago my last year of club swimming. It is definitely difficult - it takes a lot of energy and breath, just like you said. It's so unlike any other flip turn.

I'm glad to know that masters swimmers are doing it. It hadn't fully caught on when I stopped swimming competitively. :-)

Jeff Commings
October 20th, 2006, 04:58 PM
I've only seen one other regular masters swimmer do it, and he's my age. When people see me do it, they want to know how it's done. I take them through the steps of learning it, and they say it's too hard to learn. Like everything else they learned in swimming, it takes time.

The Fortress
October 20th, 2006, 05:08 PM
When Karlyn Pipes-Nielson came and crashed our zone meet in VA last April, I saw her execute an absolutely perfect and very fast back-to-breast turn. She went under a minute. She is a great technician.

I think they are very difficult. So I touch and go with a few dolphin kicks. (Probably why she beat my pants off, aside from the breaststroke problem.)

Peter Cruise
October 20th, 2006, 06:58 PM
When I was in my late 30's I did that bk/brst flip all the time & it really paid off. Now that I'm in my middle fifties, I'll take that extra gasping breath, thank you very much.

The Fortress
October 20th, 2006, 07:03 PM
Karlyn was 43 at the time. I'm 45 now, but still too old to do it. P.S. Peter: She is not my nemesis natch. Too good.

Brian Stack
October 20th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Jeff Commings said:
"The only difficulty people have with it is doing it legally. Many turn beyond 90 degrees. But it's always a judgment call. Personally, I think the stroke judge needs to stand directly over you to determine if you're past vertical. Watching from the side is NOT an accurate viewpoint. But experienced stroke judges might think differently."

I watched Richard Quick and Jenny Thompson school the stroke and turn judges at Cal after the Stanford meet a while back. Jenny used that turn in the 200 IM, and the judges had some questions it seemed. Coach Quick advised the same thing you said, stand over them, it's the only way to call it.
I bet she did 20+ turns before they were finished. Took about 30 minutes. They discussed every option. Hey Mike Moore, were you there that day? My memory isn't that good.

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 20th, 2006, 08:35 PM
I see people do both the style where you touch with yur hand then breing the same leg over and then some touch with one hand & bring the opposite leg over. Isn't the second one genereally called the Nabor turn?

knelson
October 23rd, 2006, 02:27 PM
I think the spin turn, like the old backstroke "bucket turn," is pretty fast. For some reason I can only do it well when I touch with my left hand, though :)

The Fortress
October 23rd, 2006, 04:40 PM
Knelson:

Me too. I can only bucket turn with my left hand touching. And I even prefer to head into my back turn flipping to the left side. And I'm right handed. I wonder what weirdness accounts for that. (If I do a track start I put my left foot first too. Do you?)

chlorini
October 23rd, 2006, 05:05 PM
I might be wrong about this, but I think that when I watched the Pan Pacs Women's 200 IM, I noticed that Katie Hoff did the touch and Whitney Myers did the flip. I took that to mean that which is faster is an individual thing. But maybe I'm not remembering right anyway, which would make this a useless post. If so, I'm sorry!

knelson
October 23rd, 2006, 05:07 PM
(If I do a track start I put my left foot first too. Do you?)

I don't do a track start, but I would put my left foot forward. I'm left handed and footed, though.

swimmerlisa
October 23rd, 2006, 05:29 PM
I might be wrong about this, but I think that when I watched the Pan Pacs Women's 200 IM, I noticed that Katie Hoff did the touch and Whitney Myers did the flip. I took that to mean that which is faster is an individual thing. But maybe I'm not remembering right anyway, which would make this a useless post. If so, I'm sorry!

No post is a useless post! you are right, I have been watching some IM races from Pan Pacs and Athens, and it seemed that the women's preferences varied, but majority of males did the flip. It seems to just be preference.

jim clemmons
October 23rd, 2006, 07:10 PM
I think the spin turn, like the old backstroke "bucket turn," is pretty fast. For some reason I can only do it well when I touch with my left hand, though :)

I can't seem to pull off the flip turn without seemingly risking my life so I spin turn, either hand works as well as the other.

I watched Pan Pac's and there didn't seem to be much of a difference between the two turn types at least from a speed aspect. Maybe a little faster with the flip but much less AIR.:eek:

I'm right handed, right foot forward for the track start (my hips are higher for it upon entry compared to a grab start).

BillS
October 24th, 2006, 05:30 PM
There's a video showing both turns side by side at the link below. Scroll down to the "IM" section and watch "back-breast-turn-for-women". Unlike swim.ee, the server at this site is fast enough to stream them, so you don't have to download each one.

http://www.online1966.com/all.asp

FlyQueen
October 24th, 2006, 05:52 PM
I flip in the 100 and gauge it in the 200 - if I need oxygen I skip it. I actually finish back like a backstroke finish/end of the race and use the dive down to leverage myself into the backflip. (sidenote: I did gymnastics for several years so I think this helped me) I was shown it and able to do it immediately, but I think I'm the exception. I am the only one on my team that does it that way ...

swimmerlisa
October 25th, 2006, 09:32 AM
There's a video showing both turns side by side at the link below. Scroll down to the "IM" section and watch "back-breast-turn-for-women". Unlike swim.ee, the server at this site is fast enough to stream them, so you don't have to download each one.

http://www.online1966.com/all.asp

what a great site! thanks, bill! :groovy:

BillS
October 25th, 2006, 01:38 PM
I can't take any credit. Geochuck posted this site a while back.