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swimmerlisa
October 25th, 2006, 11:00 AM
Who is your fave swimmer? If yours isn't listed, please write in...

Allen Stark
October 25th, 2006, 11:11 AM
All of these are current swimmers except Spitz. Some times we have short memories in swimming. My favorite male swimmer is Weismuller. Female its a threeway tie:Dawn Frasier,Tracy Caulkins, and Shirley Babashoff.

Allen Stark
October 25th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Also Lisa are you one of those anti-breaststroke people,if not where is Brendan Hansen on your list?

swimmerlisa
October 25th, 2006, 11:15 AM
I just tried to think of "decorated" swimmers that I know from my generation. :-) LOL I'm not an anti breastroker. The poll was supposed to spark some debate! :-) It worked! I was going to just start a thread "who is your favorite swimmer?" but thought this might get more interest... :cool:

geochuck
October 25th, 2006, 11:53 AM
I was disappointed you left off the very best
Windmill Willy the 100 stroke a minute marathon swimmer
The Black Shark - Ernest Verkotter
The Crocodile of The Nile - Latif Abou Heif
Ben Gazzell
Corky Kellum one of the first guys to swim the Mississipi River
Tarzan - Johnny W
Marilyn Bell - first woman to swim accross lake Ontario. A true Canadian she sang OH Canada when she was swimming...

USMSarah
October 25th, 2006, 12:17 PM
... where is Brendan Hansen on your list?

I vote for Brendan Hansen, he's my avatar.:agree:

Frank Thompson
October 25th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Who is your fave swimmer? If yours isn't listed, please write in...

Lisa:

Here is another thread on this subject. Because of the vast differences in age, experience, and memory you are sure to get people that will say "how could you have left out so-and-so." I suggest people write in there thread there favorite swimmer of all time because you might not have room for all of the names on the poll.

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=6505&highlight=dawn+fraser

jim clemmons
October 25th, 2006, 12:37 PM
Tom Dolan.

500 free and 400 IM record holder for eons (swimming time).

knelson
October 25th, 2006, 12:57 PM
Hard to pick a favorite. I'll add Mary T., Steve Lundquist and Brian Goodell to the list.

jean sterling
October 25th, 2006, 01:04 PM
Janet Evans

swimr4life
October 25th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Tracy Caulkins, Mary T and Steve Lundquist!

thewookiee
October 25th, 2006, 01:50 PM
I second the vote of Tom Dolan. I had the pleasure of watching him practice a number of times, the year before the 2000 Olympics.

He may not have the best looking strokes but there was no one that trained any harder.

geochuck
October 25th, 2006, 02:00 PM
Still

Burwell Bumpy Jones.

swimmerlisa
October 25th, 2006, 03:42 PM
Thought you guys might get a kick out of this. I was searching for swim videos from past olympics on youtube - and a series came up from the 64 Olympics and others. This video is at the National Gymnasium swimming pool. It features the races of Don Schollande (awarded gold meda), Dawn Fraser of Australia wins 3rd medal; backstroke race won by 3 Americans.
It was so interesting to see how different starts, turns are - but the swimming seems not to have changed much. Here's the link to that video, and other links are featured there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj-N0BGoLmo

Maybe you'll see some of your faves in those videos...let me know what ya think!

chaos
October 25th, 2006, 03:46 PM
i remember the 72 olympics like it was yesterday. the first time i ever saw anyone swimming butterfly was one of mark spitzs' gold medal swims.
my brothers and i immeadiately began thrashing in our backyard pool attempting to fly through the water.

those posters of spitz with the 7 golds and the stars and stripes speedo are hard to come by these days, but if i find one for my wife, she might let me hang up my vintage farrah faucet i've held on to!

geochuck
October 25th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Dawn Fraser and a few other Aussie's including the Konrads were at a party with a few of us Canadian swimmers in 1958. Dawn was a great swimmer who was a renegade as far as the Aussie Swim Federation was concerned.

I have a wonderful Photo with her and Lorraine Crapp taken in 1956 at the Olympics in Melbourne. We even kissed once, very nice.

Dawn was almost barred by their association because she went out with a USA basketball player in 1956. Now that would have been a terrible thing for swimming.

Dawn the rebel http://www.womenaustralia.info/biogs/IMP0178b.htm

KaizenSwimmer
October 25th, 2006, 06:40 PM
I'll join Beth McGee and Allan Stark in voting for Tracy Caulkins. :bow:

I had the great pleasure of coaching in VA when she was swimming for Nashville Aquatic Club and attended at least one a meet a year at which she swam. When she was there I would give my swimmers warmup instructions and sit by the lane in which she was warming up to just watch her. Picked her coach, Paul Bergen's brain often too, learning something priceless each time. That was a fortuitous combination of a special swimmer with exactly the right coach.
Tracy was the most lyrically beautiful 4-stroke swimmer I've ever seen and the only person in history to set World and/or American records in all five disciplines, each stroke plus the IM.
I still have the Aquaforums videos produced around 1980, featuring her on all four strokes. The other featured swimmers were on one video only.

KaizenSwimmer
October 25th, 2006, 06:48 PM
i remember the 72 olympics like it was yesterday. the first time i ever saw anyone swimming butterfly was one of mark spitzs' gold medal swims.

I attended the 1972 NCAA championships at West Point with a competitor's pass cadged from a teammate (I was a spectator.) I walked on deck at the pool Friday night just as they were about to start the 200 Fly final. Spitz was on the block in lane 3, about 12 yards away. He touched the wall in 1:45 with the 2nd place swimmer a good 8 yards behind when Spitz finished. Insane margin in an NCAA final.

Next morning I got on the elevator at the Thayer Hotel to go down to breakfast. Spitz was the only other occupant. He was carrying a box of Uncle Sam cereal (flax seeds and other laxatives - we call them fiber now). I bought a box as soon as I got home.

FlyQueen
October 25th, 2006, 07:00 PM
Jenny Thompson, Katie Hoff, Kaitlin Sandeno, and Dara Torres for women
Aaron Peirsol, Ian Crocker, Grant Hackett, and Gary Hall Jr for men

globuggie
October 25th, 2006, 08:28 PM
I'm a fan of Natalie Coughlin - her underwater dolphin kick, especially in backstroke, is gorgeous.

Warren
October 25th, 2006, 10:39 PM
I'm a big fan of gary hall jr.

Muppet
October 25th, 2006, 11:51 PM
Praise you Heather for mentioning Dara Torres!

I had the fortune of meeting her several years ago at the FINA world cups at UMD, and I was so nervous when I went to ask for her autograph... She was incredibly friendly, and even stopped to ask me a couple questions about MY swimming! The kicker is when she was passing through the media room, even if I wasn't looking, she'd say a "Hi Jeff" as she passed through.

I am glad to see her still swimming, even if it is only on relays!

Peter Cruise
October 25th, 2006, 11:52 PM
Grant Hackett: he paces 800/1500 in a fashion no other human is close to.

fanstone
October 26th, 2006, 09:51 AM
Mark Spitz. Because he ''looks" normal (nothing agains Phelps and others, just my opinion), because of his record, because he became a poster boy and advanced swimming all over the world, because I believe he is around my age (1951), because in 1968 I actually saw a movie at my high school of him with underwater shots swimming in California, at his high school. Weissmuller, I am glad they got a good swimmer to do some of the Tarzan movies because in the late 50s that is what we had to ty and emulate. On this forum? How about George, who gets up early to answer any questions, has a history from way back and still swims. Besides, he doesn't offend any nationalities, as Canada only became partly independent in 1981 and is still part of the British Empire, with the Queen as head of state. Cheers, billy fanstone

EyeoreSAM
October 26th, 2006, 10:27 AM
Matt Biondi!!

newmastersswimmer
October 26th, 2006, 10:59 AM
For women I am going with Janet Evans, Tracy Caulkins, Natalie Caughlin, and Katie Hoff as my top 4.....For Men I am going with Steve Lundquist (for his unbeleivable versatility and overall partying skills) ...followed by Micheal Phelps (6 gold medals in an Olympics at this day and age is beyond comprehension), Ian Thorpe, and Matt Biondi (5 gold medals in an Olympics is also pretty amazing!).

Newmastersswimmer

newmastersswimmer
October 26th, 2006, 11:06 AM
On this forum? How about George, who gets up early to answer any questions, has a history from way back and still swims. Besides, he doesn't offend any nationalities, as Canada only became partly independent in 1981 and is still part of the British Empire, with the Queen as head of state. Cheers, billy fanstone

posted by fanstone

I will second that vote for the most impressive regular poster on this forum. George certainly has a very impressive swimming background. I think Frank Thompson comes in second for his overall knowledge of the sport.....he's mind is a freakin encyclopedia of swimming related information.

Newmastersswimmer

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 11:19 AM
Thanks for the vote.

But you must realize I am a bad guy.

I became a free spirit in 1933 the day I was born. Have very seldom followed rules. When I was in high school they sent me home because I wore Jeans and a Fleecy T shirt to school. They told me not to come back until I followed the dress code, they sent me home the rest of the week. The next week I went back dressed the same they did not send me home.

After that a girl in my class asked me - Why don't you tuck your shirt into your pants? I asked her - Why don't you shave your legs.

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2006, 12:39 PM
I'll join Beth McGee and Allan Stark in voting for Tracy Caulkins. :bow:

I had the great pleasure of coaching in VA when she was swimming for Nashville Aquatic Club and attended at least one a meet a year at which she swam. When she was there I would give my swimmers warmup instructions and sit by the lane in which she was warming up to just watch her. Picked her coach, Paul Bergen's brain often too, learning something priceless each time. That was a fortuitous combination of a special swimmer with exactly the right coach.
Tracy was the most lyrically beautiful 4-stroke swimmer I've ever seen and the only person in history to set World and/or American records in all five disciplines, each stroke plus the IM.
I still have the Aquaforums videos produced around 1980, featuring her on all four strokes. The other featured swimmers were on one video only.

Terry:

Agreement with Tracy Caukins. However there has never been anybody that has had a FINA World Record in all 5 disciplines. Tracy had American Records in all 5 disciplines but had World Records in the Fly and IM events just like Michael Phelps has. FINA did not start giving credit for World Records for Short Course Meters until the early 1990's and I think the date was in 1993 at the first FINA World Short Course Championships in Spain. Up to that point they were called World Bests and Tracy had World Bests in both breastroke and IM events. This is always a trick question in swimming trivia because people think that Tracy or one of the Spence brothers have had all available records in all of the disciplines. I know the Spences had all of the available records in all of the disciplines but they were different brothers and that is where the confusion is.

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2006, 01:08 PM
I attended the 1972 NCAA championships at West Point with a competitor's pass cadged from a teammate (I was a spectator.) I walked on deck at the pool Friday night just as they were about to start the 200 Fly final. Spitz was on the block in lane 3, about 12 yards away. He touched the wall in 1:45 with the 2nd place swimmer a good 8 yards behind when Spitz finished. Insane margin in an NCAA final.

Next morning I got on the elevator at the Thayer Hotel to go down to breakfast. Spitz was the only other occupant. He was carrying a box of Uncle Sam cereal (flax seeds and other laxatives - we call them fiber now). I bought a box as soon as I got home.

Terry:

The actual time that Mark Spitz did for the 200 Yard Fly was 1:46.89, which broke the American Record that was held by Gary Hall at 1:48.44 in 1971. You are correct that he did win by about 3 seconds. What was significant about that swim is that he skipped thru the 1:47's and dropped some major time. However, I believe that the :47.98 time in the 100 Yard Fly from the same meet was just as impressive if not more so. That time stood as an NCAA/American record until Joe Bottom broke it at the 1977 NCAA meet in Cleveland with a :47.77 and this was the same meet that Joe went under :20 for the 50 Yard Free. A lot of people thought the swim by Spitz in the 100 was long over due because he set the American Record in HS at Santa Clara in 1967 at :49.1 and that time was not bettered until this meet.

Another reason why I think the 100 Fly was more impressive is because in 1974 at the NCAA Championships Robin Backhaus went 1:47.04 in the 200 Fly and missed the record by .15 and the next year in 1975 he missed it again going 1:47.16 and I remember this well because at the 1974 meet people were chanting "Fly Robin Fly" which was a popular song during that era when it was announced that he was going for the record. Steve Gregg missed the record in 1976 going 1:47.00 and finally in 1977 Mike Bruner broke the record at 1:45.24 at the NCAA meet. In fact Mike broke both of the Short Course and Lon Course records of Mark Spitz in the 200 Fly.

The first two people to go under 1:45 in the 200 Yard Fly is either Craig Beardsley or Par Ardvidsson and I am not sure which one it was but it was around the 1980 time period. Par could only get credit for the US Open Record and not the American Record because he was from Sweden.

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2006, 01:20 PM
On this forum? How about George, who gets up early to answer any questions, has a history from way back and still swims. Besides, he doesn't offend any nationalities, as Canada only became partly independent in 1981 and is still part of the British Empire, with the Queen as head of state. Cheers, billy fanstone

posted by fanstone

I will second that vote for the most impressive regular poster on this forum. George certainly has a very impressive swimming background. I think Frank Thompson comes in second for his overall knowledge of the sport.....he's mind is a freakin encyclopedia of swimming related information.

Newmastersswimmer

Newswimmer:

Thanks for the compliment and George certainly does have an impressive background. I have had the pleasure of meeting three people in my lifetime that would blow away almost everyone when it comes to impressive swimming background and knowing the history of the sport. I would put all three of these people on equal status as contributors to our great sport. They are Cecil Colwin, Peter Daland, and Buck Dawson. Two of the three have written books on the subject and Peter is working on writting two books and I believe one is about the history of swimming. You talk to these guys and you will just be blown away on what they know and remember about all facets of swimming.

TRYM_Swimmer
October 26th, 2006, 01:25 PM
Chet Jastremski!

He gave us the whip kick and finally made the "new" Breaststroke, as opposed to the "Butterfly Breaststroke" a powerful, dare one say, sexy, stroke!

PS For you oldies, what was the name used for Breaststroke to distinguish it from Butterfly?

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Chet a great swimmer, I met him at a swim meet in Buffalo NY. He wore his nose plugs.

Buck Dawson has some funny true stories that he brought up last time I talked to him. He was at Camp Ak-o-Mak when I phoned there a few years ago. If you talk to him mention my name, ask about my favorite drug story that I told the reporter at the Camp doing a story for Life magazine on Marty Simm.

The reporter later wrote a book on a drug addict and I was his leading character. When I talked to the reporter I showed him a buch of pills that I was taking I told him these pills are the ones that make me go. The pills and capsules I showed him, wheat germ oil capsules, beautiful three colored sleeping pills, yellow pills vitamin B omplex with c fortis, orange colored asprin.

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2006, 01:46 PM
I read somewhere recently that Biondi was a doper and experimented with creatine.

Alison Fortress:

Are you sure it was Matt Biondi doing this. The reason I say this is because he was one of the athelte leader/supporters of all world drug testing that was not being done back in the middle 1980's. In fact I believe it was Michael Gross that took up this initiative in Europe and asked Matt to do the same in the Amercia's to have on the spot testing and the athletes fully support this measure regardless of the lack of privacy issues in the swimmers lives. Matt and everyone else sign petitons to FINA and got behind this measure because they really wanted to clean up the sport of swimming because at that time it was tainted and was moving slowly to solve this world problem.

When I saw Matt Biondi talk in 1994 at the USAS convention he said this was one of his most proud moments because he got behind this initiative and there was worldwide support for this even in countries like East Germany and Soviet bloc nations. Eventually FINA did adopt worldwide unannounced drug testing but it was nice that the swimmers stood up and fought for this along with coaches and administrators in the world of swimming.

Now about the use of creatine, I don't know about that. I don't even know if its on the banned list today or in the past. I know as a master swimmer I use to get information mailed to me on how to order it and use it to get advantages in athletic performance, but I never used the stuff. Mr. Goodsmith has stated he has used it and found some disadvantages with its use. Now, don't get me wrong I am not making this up because I read it here on the discussion forums a couple of weeks ago. I don't think its illegal but maybe I am wrong because I have not been keeping up with the drug scene lately in swimming. Meaning I don't know what is banned and what is not and whats legal on therapeutic use forms submitted to the NGB and FINA.

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 02:03 PM
Breaststroke was the name for both then butterly became the name for the breakaway stroke. The butterfly stroke was called breaststroke and the kick was a frog kick or you would be DQ'd, arms for breastroke were allowed to be recovered above water. I had leg problems and could not frog kick so did not race breaststroke except for the team relays or an IM.

The first time I saw butterfly with a new kick was 1952, Matt Mann jr. did it in London Ontario he used what was called one beat fish tail kick. Hence 2 beats and name changed to dolphin kick.

Buck Dawson married Rosemary, Matt Manns daughter.

knelson
October 26th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Another reason why I think the 100 Fly was more impressive is because in 1974 at the NCAA Championships Robin Backhaus went 1:47.04 in the 200 Fly and missed the record by .15 and the next year in 1975 he missed it again going 1:47.16

That 1:47.04 time is still the men's record at the University of Washington, by the way. Backhaus also still holds the record in the 500 free with a 4:22.91.

TRYM_Swimmer
October 26th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Fish tail! It's been a long time since I heard that term, but that's what it was in the mid-fifties when I started swimming. One of my early swim meet friends was a master of fish-tail: Carl Roby, who won the 200 meter fly at the 68 games, at the then advanced age of 23.

When I started, we referred to the new Breaststroke as Orthodox Breaststroke. Anyone else heard of that term, or is it just the delusion of an aging frog-kicker!

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 02:40 PM
Orthodox Breaststroke was not an official name I believe, but yes it was a term used by the true breaststrokers they did not like the flyers swimming with the over the water recovery in their race.

Backstroke was sometimes swum with a two arm recovery and a frog kick the first time I saw it thet tried to DQ the swimmer, but he did not get DQ'd

Allen Stark
October 26th, 2006, 06:29 PM
Tracy Caulkins didn't hold world records in all 4 strokes and IM only because the East German women were roided-up. On a level playing field she would have been unbeatable. If the 1980 Olympics weren't boycotted and the E. Germans didn't cheat who knows how many golds she would have gotten.

poolraat
October 26th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Mark Spitz. Ever wonder how much faster if his times would have been if he had worn a cap over that bushy hair?

geochuck
October 26th, 2006, 08:19 PM
I think he had a moustache at that time too.

poolraat
October 26th, 2006, 08:36 PM
It was about as bushy as his hair.

The Fortress
October 26th, 2006, 10:19 PM
Frank:

No, I'm not sure about Biondi. I just read somewhere fairly recently that he had used creatine. I can't recall the source, I read a lot, but it might have been the book I read on the Balco investigation and Barry Bonds. (I'm a baseball fan.) As I recall, Biondi's name was mentioned in connection with creatine, but no other drugs. I think it was also mentioned that he was an anti-drug crusader. I doubt creatine was illegal when he was swimming. I believe it is on the NCAA list now (that list is really long and includes things like ginseng, if I recall correctly). However, I doubt creatine is particularly performance enhancing in swimming except possibly for sprinters, which of course Biondi was. If I find the reference again, I'll let you know. I just remember reading it and being a bit disillusioned.

Frank Thompson
October 27th, 2006, 12:29 PM
Tracy Caulkins didn't hold world records in all 4 strokes and IM only because the East German women were roided-up. On a level playing field she would have been unbeatable. If the 1980 Olympics weren't boycotted and the E. Germans didn't cheat who knows how many golds she would have gotten.

Allen:

Not all records during this time period were by East German swimmers. In fact the Russians went 1-2-3 in the 200 Breast at the 1980 Olympic Games and we really don't know if they were on drugs during this time and I am completely against speculation on this subject. The times of the first two swimmers were 3.5 seconds ahead of Tracy and other American swimmers. I say other American swimmers because you don't know if they would have won and its pointless to speculate. Tracy tied for 1st in the Olympic Trials with Terry Baxter in the 200 Breast so you don't know who would have won and I believe other American swimmers were not roided up so we will never know what would have happened.

Now there is one event that I know Tracy Caukins would not have won even though she had the World Record from the 1978 World Championships. Mary T Meager did a 2:06.37 in the 200 Fly and was more than 3.5 seconds ahead of the 2:09.87 from 1978. We will never know what would have happened in 1980, but judging by the swims and performances of Mary T in this event during this time period in which she had not lost to an American in LCM it would be pretty hard to say she would not be unbeatable.

The same thing could be said for the other breastroke races. In fact, I believe Americans Baxter, Susan Rapp, and Kim Rhodenbaugh all had legitmate shots for medals at Moscow but its pure speculation as to who would have done better. These three along with Tracy were the some of the fastest times in the breast events in 1984 and there really was no clear favorite, so again its speculation has to who would win and if any of the 1984 Olympic swimmers from other countries were on drugs.

shark
October 27th, 2006, 02:33 PM
David Edgar - Spitz never beat him in a NCAA 50 or 100 freestyle.

Allen Stark
October 28th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Spitz said about Edgar something like:he's the best turner,I'm the best swimmer.

SolarEnergy
October 28th, 2006, 06:10 PM
Mine isn't even a poll choice sorry :(

Mine has to be Mark Tewksbury. He has given me the best sports event I've ever seen in my (short) life, all sports included : The 100 backstroke gold medal in '92 Barcelona, one hair in front of Jeff Rouse.

(Plus we were there having a female finishing 8th at the 200 breaststroke final on top of that).

Euhh let me think.

Mark gave me the best sports event, but Shelley Tailor-Smith has to be my favorite swimmer. Every year we raced against her, in every event she won and was in top5 overall.

She won 7 Openwater World Championships, probably in a row (I'm not sure). I've seen her performing a 60x100m off 1:15 touching 1:10 in our pool one summer, that was amazing.

geochuck
October 28th, 2006, 06:12 PM
No I better not say that.

SolarEnergy
October 28th, 2006, 06:22 PM
I agree with this quote here
On this forum? How about George, who gets up early to answer any questions, has a history from way back and still swims. Cheers to George who does know the taste of waters all around the World, cold warm dirty or salty.


No I better not say that. Oups... did I say anything that you didn't like maty? Was certainly not on purpose.

Sorry and congratulations again for the career that you've had and the sound advices that you give.

Cheers !

geochuck
October 28th, 2006, 06:44 PM
No it was my reply to Tewksbury, not nice and rather rude so removed it. But he surely was a great swimmer and defender of Canadian swimming when the brothers were in charge of Swim Canada. I believe it was he alone who got those guys out of control.

breastroker
October 28th, 2006, 07:02 PM
Dawn Fraser would have won in 1968 for her 4th in a row, but the powers that be at the time did not allow her to swim. Her book is great reading, so much truth in it.

Dara Torres was certainly the most beautiful.

Tracy the most talented

Frank,
The Russians were on a steroid that only existed in the Russian army. It was finally detected I think in 1988, and they did NOT disqualify the Russian breaststroker!

My favorite swimmer was John Moffet. He coached masters and did a couple of videos. Easy to talk to, although he said I would never get what he was telling me to do. I actually did learn a huge amount from John.

KaizenSwimmer
October 28th, 2006, 07:10 PM
there has never been anybody that has had a FINA World Record in all 5 disciplines.

That's why I said World and/or American. I don't think anyone else has ever done that in all five disciplines.

KaizenSwimmer
October 28th, 2006, 07:18 PM
[quote=Frank Thompson;65895]The actual time that Mark Spitz did for the 200 Yard Fly was 1:46.89, which broke the American Record that was held by Gary Hall at 1:48.44 in 1971...I believe that the :47.98 time in the 100 Yard Fly from the same meet was just as impressive if not more so. [quote]

Your recall is impressive, far better than mine - especially considering that record of 1:46.89 is still the pool record at Army and I spent about 6 years looking at it nearly every day, while coaching the club team for two years and for four years as an assistant with the varsity.

I remember the 200 Fly so well simply because I walked on the pool deck for my first experience watching an NCAA championship and about a minute later got to watch that swim. I also recall that Ken ? from Michigan State (and Shore Aquatic Club in NJ) was 2nd in 1:51.

These swims were mindblowing to me because I had just completed my college career and my 200 Free was 10 seconds behind Spitz's 200 Fly.

Also saw Jim McConica in that meet and now get to race him at Masters Nats - actually I get to swim in the same event as him. Saying that I race him would be stretching it to the breaking point.

Frank Thompson
October 29th, 2006, 07:47 PM
[quote=Frank Thompson;65895]The actual time that Mark Spitz did for the 200 Yard Fly was 1:46.89, which broke the American Record that was held by Gary Hall at 1:48.44 in 1971...I believe that the :47.98 time in the 100 Yard Fly from the same meet was just as impressive if not more so. [quote]

Your recall is impressive, far better than mine - especially considering that record of 1:46.89 is still the pool record at Army and I spent about 6 years looking at it nearly every day, while coaching the club team for two years and for four years as an assistant with the varsity.

I remember the 200 Fly so well simply because I walked on the pool deck for my first experience watching an NCAA championship and about a minute later got to watch that swim. I also recall that Ken ? from Michigan State (and Shore Aquatic Club in NJ) was 2nd in 1:51.

These swims were mindblowing to me because I had just completed my college career and my 200 Free was 10 seconds behind Spitz's 200 Fly.

Also saw Jim McConica in that meet and now get to race him at Masters Nats - actually I get to swim in the same event as him. Saying that I race him would be stretching it to the breaking point.

Terry:

Actually the guy that got second with a 1:51 was a teamate of Mark Spitz at Indiana named Bob Alsfelder who I remember because he swam AAU meets in Ohio and he was from the Cincinnatti area. He was 4th at the 1972 Olympic Trials losing the 3rd place spot to Gary Hall by .25 seconds. Spitz, Hall, and Backhaus went 1-2-3 in the 200 Fly at the 1972 Olympics. I have attached a link to the stories and what Bob Alsfelder is up to today.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/9274.asp

http://www.cincypost.com/sports/2000/furman011400.html

Frank Thompson
October 29th, 2006, 08:19 PM
[QUOTE=breastroker;66124

Frank,
The Russians were on a steroid that only existed in the Russian army. It was finally detected I think in 1988, and they did NOT disqualify the Russian breaststroker!

Wayne:

I heard about rumors to this effect many years ago but its never been proven and I think its pointless to speculate. The swimmer in the Russian army that some accused of steriod use was Vladimir Salnikov, the first man to go under 15 minutes in the 1500 Free and was a member of the Russian Army while he was training. He along with Roland Matthes and Nikolai Pankin have been accused and all of them have never tested positive in a drug test while they were competition. These swimmers are some of the greatest swimmers that have ever lived and if they or anyone else have never been tested positive of a drug test, than all it is speculation.

Some people have accused every swimmer that has ever competed for an Eastern Bloc nation from 1992 on back. I not saying everyone was clean but by no means do we know for certain who was clean and who wasn't and I think its totally unfair to base judgements without proof. The only way to get rid of the speculation is for the IOC to have a trial and prove the use of drug taking and they have already said they are not going to do this.

breastroker
October 29th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Frank,
I am talking about a breaststroker. Not Salnikov.

Frank Thompson
October 29th, 2006, 08:31 PM
May I ask who the swimmer was that was accused? Was it Pankin, Kossinsky, or someone else?

geochuck
October 29th, 2006, 08:35 PM
Was it Dimitri Volkov, who won the Olympic 100 breast in Seoul.

breastroker
October 29th, 2006, 08:50 PM
Everyone is on line while I am scurring through past issues of Swimming World.

You are right on Volkov, but I think he finished third. He badly cut his foot a month before the Olympics. But he was a body length ahead at the 20 meter mark, after the start and underwater stroke.

1988
1. Adrian Moorhouse, Great Britain, 1:02.04
2. Karoly Guttler, Hungary, 1:02.05
3. Dmitri Volkov, Soviet Union, 1:02.20

Frank Thompson
October 29th, 2006, 08:55 PM
Was it Dimitri Volkov, who won the Olympic 100 breast in Seoul, perhaps the best start and underwater stroke in history.

Hi George:

Not to be nit pickey but Dimitri Volkov got the bronze. Adrian Moorhouse of England won the 100 Breast in Seoul and Karoly Guttler from Hungary won the silver. I happen to remember this because England had ony two Men's Olympic Champions since Henry Taylor won the 1500 Free in 1908 and that would be Moorhouse and David Wilkie in the 200 Breast, in 1976 and the only Olympic Gold medal winner in men's swimming events who was not from the USA.

breastroker
October 29th, 2006, 09:05 PM
The story broke in 1996
Atlanta Games using bromantan, although classified as a stimulant, bromantan is believed to be capable of hiding the abuse of more serious drugs such as steroids and other related substances.


The International Olympic Committee (IOC) has described the effect of bromantan as equivalent to that of mesocarb.

Mesocarb is known to possess anti-depressant and anti-psychotic properties and is already in the list of banned drugs. The IOC has also described bromantan as a dangerous cocktail of steroids, stimulants and masking agents.

According to an Olympic official, bromantan was first manufactured by the Russian army to increase their soldiers' physical endurance during long and strenuous military exercises. Then Russian athletes got hold for it. It was reported that those who were on bromantan could compete to their maximum capacity without feeling exhausted.

It was alleged that the drug was abused for years by athletes of the former Soviet Union. Russian officials were quoted as saying that Soviet athletes used bromantan at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul

geochuck
October 29th, 2006, 09:06 PM
Right I am a goof

100m Brst
Adrian Moorhouse, GBR 1:02.04

Károly Guttler, HUN 1:02.05

Dimitri Volkov, USSR 1:02.20

breastroker
October 29th, 2006, 09:10 PM
David Wilkie will always be of a Scot! And proud of it. If it hadnot been for Don Scholandar, McGregor would have won in 1964. I swam with him in the 90's in Scotland. Most beautiful fly stroke I have seen.

ShinobDood
October 30th, 2006, 11:07 AM
The Duke.. Duke Kahanamoku. A true water man lifestyle. Thats what I like about Duke, he did many other water activities in addition to swimming. Also...Matt Biondi, Brad Schumacher. Water Polo + Swimming is a great combination!

Also.. the Indian Chief from the place called "Washington State." In 1924 he drove his model T, all the way to Indianapolis to compete in the Olympic trials. The Chief never entered any forms, didnt have registration #'s or anything. The officials were going to disqualify him, but the other swimmers (Which Duke was in attendance) talked them out of this, and the Chief got to compete in the meet. He's one of favorite swimmers and I dont even know his name.

Shinob Dood - agwaajiing.

TomBrooklyn
October 20th, 2007, 08:05 PM
I got on the elevator at the Thayer Hotel to go down to breakfast. Spitz was the only other occupant. He was carrying a box of Uncle Sam cereal/ I bought a box as soon as I got
home.
Did it do any good for your swimming? I've never seen that brand, but I'll look for it in particular now.

FindingMyInnerFish
October 20th, 2007, 08:52 PM
All great swimmers, but there's also Don Schollander (http://www.bashof.org/inducteebios/dschollander.htm)... Goes back a ways, but first American swimmer to win 4 golds... then a 5th in Mexico City in 1968. First swimmer I noticed and followed.

Janet Evans not only b/c of her record, but just I admire her the way I've admired Joan Benoit Samuelson as a runner--strong woman athletic role model, class act!

pwolf66
October 21st, 2007, 10:12 AM
Janet Evans. I know someone must have mentioned her already but in an era dominated by taller swimmers, she proved that just because you don't fit the profile, doesn't mean you can't be the best.

Paul

orca1946
October 22nd, 2007, 03:12 PM
Many after ,but Spitz was the 1st to grab USA & get us thinking of a whole new world :applaud:

JimRude
October 22nd, 2007, 04:45 PM
Even though I was a breastroker in the mid 1980s - and therefore had a chance to swim with/against some of the best breastroke swimmers of all time (Moffet, Lundquist, Gill, Moorhouse, Davis, Schroeder, etc, etc) - I would say Vladimir Salnikov. Salnikov was an absolute beast.

Close second - Tracy Caulkins, Sippy Woodhead, Mary T., Michael Gross, Matt Biondi (SCY), and Goodell.

Just my $0.02...

Sabretooth Tiger
October 22nd, 2007, 06:16 PM
Summer Sanders . . .

pwolf66
October 22nd, 2007, 07:01 PM
Summer Sanders . . .


/Homer
mmmmmmmmmmmmm Summer
/Homer

Then again, what WAS she thinking hosting Nick's Figure it Out? Whoops.

Paul

Ian
October 24th, 2007, 07:36 AM
These are all great choices but let us not forget from where we came...Duke Kahanamoku, Johnny Weissmuller, Adolph Kiefer, Alan Ford, Chet Jastremski, Katie Ball, Mary T Meagher and Donna DeVarona.

geochuck
October 24th, 2007, 09:22 AM
These are all great choices but let us not forget from where we came...Duke Kahanamoku, Johnny Weissmuller, Adolph Kiefer, Alan Ford, Chet Jastremski, Katie Ball, Mary T Meagher and Donna DeVarona.

I knew all the guys you mention personally great picks. The women I did not know personally.

Treebox
October 24th, 2007, 11:03 AM
Men: Rowdy Gaines - Tough as nails. One of the first to come back to swimming post college and compete at the international level. A class act who might have won numerous Gold medals in the 80 Olympics that Carter rediculously boycotted. Continues to represent our sport in the best of manners.

Women: Shirley Babashoff - The victim of East German cheating in the 70's who was cast out of swimming for bringing the steroids issue to the forefront. Two Olympics, 2 World championships accounting 13 Silver medals all lost to the East Germans. All this time and she was correct all along.