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The Fortress
October 27th, 2006, 11:12 AM
Running. Does it help your swimming or is it an interesting diversion? A lot of people here seem to cross train with running. (Some are obviously triathletes). USS teams now have their swimmers running. But does running really help swimming?

For me, I'm not so sure. I think it helps a bit on the cardio side and may build leg strength. I do it to tighten everything up, because I like being outside and it gives my shoulders a break. But I'm not sure I wouldn't be better off with more pool time if my body could take it.

swimmerlisa
October 27th, 2006, 11:16 AM
Absolutely. It increases your levels of endurance and stamina, and also builds leg strength. We ran almost every day with my club team - including stadiums - and I feel as though it has helped me tremendously in all aspects of my swimming.

geochuck
October 27th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Our coach told use anything but heavy weights, we ran, we biked, we rowed, we paddled in a canoe, we hiked and even partied.

We went to the sports field next to the pool and did execises. We would do Robert Kilputh suggested exercises - oh how I wish I had that pamphlet. Passed the heavy medicine ball, ran frontwards and backwards. Our coach told us never do the duck walk, bad for the knees.

Allen Stark
October 27th, 2006, 11:55 AM
OK I hate running so I am not unbiased,but I think your time could be better spent doing more swim specific exercises.I'll distiguish running on level ground from stadiums. Running stairs is less jarring and gives a better workout to the muscles used in breaststroke.Biking is also good for breaststroke. Regular running is hard on your hips and knees with very little swimming crossover except cardio.Cardio is of course important,but if I am cross training I want to either do something that directly helps my swimming or that I like and as I said I hate running.

geochuck
October 27th, 2006, 12:09 PM
Allen what we did has now been so perfected that we now can do everthing we did as kids in a little room or in a pool even a swim in place pool in another little room.

But are our kids too over protected. We would ride our bikes all day, never be in the house. I never watched TV until the first Admiral 21 inch Black and white TV came out when I was 20 yrs old. I bought it for my parents for Christmas.

I think we are in the inactive world and tommorrow I am going to change and get very active if I can get away from the computer.

aquageek
October 27th, 2006, 12:21 PM
I started running for the first time in my life this past January and have noticed a marked improvement in my swimming, especially distance events or high yardage sets with short rest. I also have noticed improved agility. I was a doofus out of the water. I think cross training is the way to go. Plus, it provides a nice diversity of exercise routine.

Then again, there are some who only swim and only swim the same workout over and over and over, and are at the elite level.

KaizenSwimmer
October 27th, 2006, 12:31 PM
I think your time could be better spent doing more swim specific exercises <snip> if I am cross training I want to either do something that directly helps my swimming or that I like

I'm with Allen on this. Any physiologist will tell you there is no crossover training effect from running that will directly benefit your swimming. Any leg strength you may gain is specific to running movements. Any leg endurance you may gain, ditto. There is certainly general fitness produced by running and that general fitness may help you on a level of relatively basic physiology. In other words if your general fitness level is rather low as you embark on a swim training program you will likely have a somewhat easier time adapting to that new exercise regime if you have been active (any aerobic activity) previously. But if your general fitness is already at a good level from swim training, you won't add to it by running.

This raises the question of why so many swim teams include running in their early season programs. Some do it because the coaches believe the fitness gains will help the swimming. Some because the coaches believe running may help overweight swimmers lose the excess more quickly than swimming - and because more swimming's not an option. And still others may simply be seeking to include variety to break the "monotony of following the black line." (which is a whole other topic)

Because my philosophy is that swimming has so many technical puzzles to solve that we can always find opportunities to polish our technique, I feel that time I might spend running, as a workout, would yield more payback if I spent it doing drills or turn practice, etc. in the pool.

Which is not to say I don't do other activities. I spend many hours a year cycling, roller blading, rowing or x-c skiing. I think of all of them as "training" - which is to say they help me stay fit in middle age. But I mainly do them because they're life-enriching. On a beautiful day this time of year I often skip a Masters workout to take a mtn bike ride and enjoy the foliage and crisp air.

But I don't do them with any sense that they directly impact my swim performance. That happens entirely in the water.

scyfreestyler
October 27th, 2006, 12:33 PM
I agree with TI Devil, cross training can benefit your swimming and might just prevent you from getting burned out due to monotonous swimming and clock watching.

However, everybody is different and some might be better off staying in the pool. I am not much of a runner so any cross training for me would have to come in the form of cycling I guess. Of course, that would require me to have time do perform said activity!

scyfreestyler
October 27th, 2006, 12:36 PM
But I don't do them with any sense that they directly impact my swim performance. That happens entirely in the water.

You might not be aware of the benefits while you are performing these activities but surely they are helping your swimming in some way, no? Rowing might be helping your rotator cuff muscles. Cycling will strengthen your legs. The fresh air and scenery will clear your mind.

gull
October 27th, 2006, 12:47 PM
I agree with Terry (that is not a typo). Maglischo argues that VO2max is sport-specific; it's a very interesting discussion.

Look at it this way, Geek. You'll be able to run to the locker room faster after I take you to school in the 500 next year.

aquageek
October 27th, 2006, 12:53 PM
I will continue to run, holding to my belief it has and is improving my swimming. Then again, I was in a swimming funk in 2005. I'd like to see the physiologist quotes that Terry is referring to.

Oh, and pigeon boy, I'll be in the locker room first all right, waiting for you to open your wallet and dole out the cash you owe me. And, this year, I won't look away pretending that wetness on your face is pool water when it's really your sad pitiful tears of despair!

scyfreestyler - you rock, killer.

swimmerlisa
October 27th, 2006, 01:07 PM
You might not be aware of the benefits while you are performing these activities but surely they are helping your swimming in some way, no? Rowing might be helping your rotator cuff muscles. Cycling will strengthen your legs. The fresh air and scenery will clear your mind.

I agree with scyfreestlyer and aquageek! :applaud: How can anyone say that running/cross training doesn't help? The impact that cross training has on your muscles is greatly noticeable. Why do coaches incorporate running into the swimming program? Obviously, they know from experience that it helps - they know there are great benefits to the swimmer's muscles and mind.

Cross training makes your legs stronger. Stronger legs produce better legs, stronger underwater dolphin kicks, agility, muscle endurance, and that in turn produces greater confidence in the swimmer. Good things all around.

Terry - do you think weight lifting doesn't impact a swimmer's performance?

FlyQueen
October 27th, 2006, 01:14 PM
The muscles you use in running are not the same ones that you use in swimming. That is why the benefit isn't there. You can improve over all fitness, and maybe lung capacity. However there is no direct correlation with improved swimming ability. You are much better off getting to the pool more. At least that is the research I've seen.

As someone else said, running may help with weight loss which may result in faster times, or it may result in more muscle which helps to burn more calories and makes your workouts more efficient.

The logic that running will help you in the pool makes no sense to me though ...

Not trying to rude or anything I just don't follow the logic. And I used to be a hardcore runner ...

FlyQueen
October 27th, 2006, 01:16 PM
Also, unless you work swimming specific muscles and their counter muscles (ie - upper back to balance the shoulders) then weight lifting can be pointless, too.

swimmerlisa
October 27th, 2006, 01:16 PM
But I don't do them with any sense that they directly impact my swim performance. That happens entirely in the water.

Terry - are you saying that there is nothing a swimmer can do out of the water to improve their swimming? Are all those years of dryland training of abs, medicine balls, weights, running, stadiums, push ups, etc - all of that was unncessary? It didn't help me to be a better swimmer? Or perhaps did it give me that last push to get me over any plateaus?

scyfreestyler
October 27th, 2006, 01:19 PM
I agree with Terry (that is not a typo). Maglischo argues that VO2max is sport-specific;


Does Maglischo think that mitochondria are capable of understanding what sport is being played? Does he think that atp production shuts down when a swimmer runs or when a runner swims? I would have to read the article/chapter I guess but it sounds like his theory is a bit of a reach.

scyfreestyler
October 27th, 2006, 01:23 PM
Runners use their quadriceps and hamstrings as do swimmers. It would seem to me that running would increase the production of ATP which would benefit you in the pool. Same goes for cycling, I think the same muscle groups are used in that sport as well. I have seen many a triathlete jump into the pool with piss poor form but have endurance like nobodies business. The most likely explanation is that their ability to produce ATP has been increased from the running and cycling they do.

FlyQueen
October 27th, 2006, 01:33 PM
Runners use their quadriceps and hamstrings as do swimmers. It would seem to me that running would increase the production of ATP which would benefit you in the pool. Same goes for cycling, I think the same muscle groups are used in that sport as well. I have seen many a triathlete jump into the pool with piss poor form but have endurance like nobodies business. The most likely explanation is that their ability to produce ATP has been increased from the running and cycling they do.


Yes, it is hamstrings and quads but I don't think it works like that. Those are the muscle groups, but not the individual muscles.

I think the bottom line is getting into the pool is more effective.

Lisa, you are talking about club days when you swam a lot more than we do in masters. I think for masters swimmers the benefit will be found in more pool workouts. How many track stars are getting into the pool to swim a few times a week?

FlyQueen
October 27th, 2006, 01:35 PM
SCY freestyler:

What are we using our hamstrings for in swimming besides breaststroke, which is an evil thing that I don't do? I guess there's starts and turns. Anything else?

I do start to feel my quads and hammies in fly ... and back ... they are used, but I don't think the individual muscles are the same ... I'm not an expert on this at all just going off of what I have read ... my the quads and hams are definitely used in the kick ...

EDITED TO ADD: IF you believe Gary Hall Jr. then boxing is the best cross training activity. This makes sense to me because you use your whole body. You rotate from your core to engage everything. I see the transfer for this, but not for running.

scyfreestyler
October 27th, 2006, 01:37 PM
SCY freestyler:

What are we using our hamstrings for in swimming besides breaststroke, which is an evil thing that I don't do? I guess there's starts and turns. Anything else?


SwimmerLisa;

Now, I do agree with you that core strengthening activities help your swimming. I think they've helped me, at least.


Your quadriceps propel your leg downward in a freestyle kick and the hamstring brings it back up to neutral position. I don't recall the term right now but muscles work in conjunction with each other at joints such as the hip since a muscle can only provide movement in one direction.

scyfreestyler
October 27th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Wow. Everyone is all over the map on this one.

I run a lot. That's mostly what I did during my 24 year hiatus from swimming until I gave myself a nasty stress fracture. I still run now, just shorter distances and less often. But I don't think it helps my swimming one little bit. Sorry Geek and SCY freestyler. Usually if I run before I swim later that night, I get cramps in swimming. And I never huff and puff when I run so I don't think it helps my cardio that much. My legs give out before my lungs.
But will I stop running and do endless drills in the pool? No way, and I like drills. I run because I think it increases my fitness generally. I run because I like to be outside. I run so that the rest of my family won't make fun of me for being a whimp. I run so that I can do aquathons or a 5K with my kids/husband. I run because it burns way more calories than swimming and it generally tightens everything up whereas swimming doesn't do much for flabbiness. I'm sure running has the benefit of strengthening my legs, but I think I could get that from weight lifting in lieu of running.

But if you think running is helping your swimming, keep doing it. It's great fun. (Sorry Allen).


Perhaps this is because you are using the same muscles in swimming that you used in running. After running they are already fatigued and a cramp is to be expected I would think. Maybe not though.


Also, your legs giving out is a sign that you have exceeded their ATP production level...actually the ability of mitochondria to produce ATP fast enough for you. I think you have moved into the fermentation cycle which is when your muscles will "fail".

Where is Gull? He knows all of this physiological/biological stuff like the back of his hand.

swimmerlisa
October 27th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Lisa, you are talking about club days when you swam a lot more than we do in masters. I think for masters swimmers the benefit will be found in more pool workouts. How many track stars are getting into the pool to swim a few times a week?

who knew this would turn into a debate?

I know masters swimmers who swim just as much as I did/do in my current "club days". We don't see track stars getting into the pool to swim a few times a week because they don't use their arms like we do. We use our legs like they do. Strong legs and strong kicks are what has helped me have such a succesfull underwater kick, fast turns and strong breastroke pullouts. ANY swimmer (not just club swimmers) can benefit from strenghtening of muscles. Weak swimmers are not fast swimmers. I would hope to think masters swimmers would want to get faster and not get stuck in a rut or not be strong enough to complete a 500 or a mile or a 3000 for time.

just my two cents.

FlyQueen
October 27th, 2006, 01:53 PM
who knew this would turn into a debate?

I know masters swimmers who swim just as much as I did/do in my current "club days". We don't see track stars getting into the pool to swim a few times a week because they don't use their arms like we do. We use our legs like they do. Strong legs and strong kicks are what has helped me have such a succesfull underwater kick, fast turns and strong breastroke pullouts. ANY swimmer (not just club swimmers) can benefit from strenghtening of muscles. Weak swimmers are not fast swimmers. I would hope to think masters swimmers would want to get faster and not get stuck in a rut or not be strong enough to complete a 500 or a mile or a 3000 for time.

just my two cents.


What I am getting at is just that I don't think physiologically it has benefits. I've read a few studies on this that have brought me to that belief. This isn't to say that I haven't run as cross training.

Endurance is a funny thing. When I first started swimming masters I was in phenomenal running shape. I was training for a marathon at the time, and had to stop due to injury. I died for the first month (or two) in practice because I wasn't in swimming shape. Being in swimming shape and being in running shape are so different. Now I am in great swimming shape and tried to run a measly 2 miles the other day and was hurting. I could swim a 3000 or more for time no problem. I would hate every last second of it, but I could do it. I could probably swim farther than I could run at this point.

If a masters swimmer can't finish a 500 they answer isn't running more it's more endurance work.

Now, I am also a sprinter as I know Fortress/Leslie/Alison is so I wonder if that is an issue.

Lisa, what are your events?

I still think the best way to get a better kick and a stronger underwater kick is by getting in the water and kicking and going to weight room and lifting, not running.

swimmerlisa
October 27th, 2006, 01:58 PM
Lisa, what are your events?

I still think the best way to get a better kick and a stronger underwater kick is by getting in the water and kicking and going to weight room and lifting, not running.

my events are 100/200 back....100 fly....100/200 IM. I rely heavily on my underwater work, which in turn leads to endurance so i can survive the whole event after so much underwater fly. I kick a lot during practice, but for me, and this is me personally, that extra work by running or in the weight room has helped. that's just me and my experience. to each his - or her - own. :cool:

geochuck
October 27th, 2006, 02:33 PM
You spoiled swimmers, all those pools out there lots of space to train. We had very large time constrates as to pool availability. Three lanes 1.5 hours, club with 200= swimmers open swimming in the other 4 lanes. Mon 3 lanes, Tues pool closed for wrestling matches, Wed 3 lanes, Thurs 3 lanes, Friday Lesson nite no training, Sat race out of town. Sunday no training and this was until I was 23 years of age. We had to do the cross training or you would never be fit.

Now I ride my bike and very little swimming, can't run anymore a little walking. When I head south I will swim lots see you all at the Canadian Master Races in May.

geochuck
October 27th, 2006, 02:50 PM
Sorry to repeat an old storey

My brother Thurlow and I used to go to the Municipal Swimming Pool to train. The pool was a little over two and a half miles from our house.

Thurlow and I would get street car fare from our mother to get us to and from the pool.

When we would get to the street car stop, we put the cash in our pockets and would wait for the street car to load up.

As soon as it started to move, we would start to run, and kept going for fifteen blocks. We had a pact...If we beat the street car to Sherman Ave. we could walk the next seven blocks to the pool. But, if the street car beat us to Sherman, we had to run all the rest of the way to the pool.

As it turned out, we did a lot of running. The reward... great conditioning and the french fries or milkshakes that we bought with the street car money which was burning a hole in our pockets.

When Thurlow and I were a little older we would pack a lunch, ride our bikes from the city of Hamilton Ontario to Freelton stone quarry - a 12 mile ride each way. In the summer we would leave home in the morning and stay at the quarry all day. We did this two or three times a week.

The quarry was filled with water, we called it Emerald lake. It was surrounded by limestone cliffs. We would play tag, running all over the place, diving off the 25 to 35 ft. cliffs, and racing each other across the lake.

After the day at Emerald lake was over, we headed home. We had never heard of cross training but I think this was CROSS TRAINING.

KaizenSwimmer
October 27th, 2006, 02:53 PM
Terry - are you saying that there is nothing a swimmer can do out of the water to improve their swimming? Are all those years of dryland training of abs, medicine balls, weights, running, stadiums, push ups, etc - all of that was unncessary? It didn't help me to be a better swimmer? Or perhaps did it give me that last push to get me over any plateaus?

I don't want to suggest that cross training has no benefits, but I think it's important to understand that the physiologic training adaptations that are most specific to swimming performance occur while swimming. For instance, cross training can help with muscle balancing. Swimming tends to develop the muscles that depress and internally rotate the arms, while neglecting those that raise and externally rotate the arms. Cross training can help address that imbalance.

Strength/resistance training helps develop your musculoskeletal structure in ways swimming may not. But you must do swimming movements to convert that muscular potential into swimming-specific power, mainly by training those stronger muscles to work in close coordination with each other. The coordination is more important to your swimming performance than the contractile capacity.

In middle age the best reason for doing weight training is so you can spade your garden or shovel your driveway without taking to your bed afterward. When you approach it that way, you worry less about working on "swimming muscles" and more about having a body that's strong for living.

I feel that when I kayak and x-c ski, I strengthen the muscles that rotate the core body similarly to how I may use them when swimming. That's certainly in the back of my mind as I do them, but it's not the reason I do them. Being on the river or on the trails in the Shawangunks is why I do them. But the core rotation that really helps me get through a challenging set or race is strictly from training in the water.

KaizenSwimmer
October 27th, 2006, 02:58 PM
my events are 100/200 back....100 fly....100/200 IM. I rely heavily on my underwater work,:cool:

I promise you, the most valuable thing you do for your underwater work is to practice every turn/pushoff/breakout like it was for an Olympic medal. No amount of kicking sets or weight room work will touch this for creating the adaptations that help you win the walls in races. Win every wall in training and you'll win them in races.
Which, I hope you understand, is not an argument against weight training.

geochuck
October 27th, 2006, 03:03 PM
I promise you, the most valuable thing you do for your underwater work is to practice every turn/pushoff/breakout like it was for an Olympic medal. No amount of kicking sets or weight room work will touch this for creating the adaptations that help you win the walls in races. Win every wall in training and you'll win them in races.
Which, I hope you understand, is not an argument against weight training.Good advice Terry but when the closest pool is 150 miles away. Like I had when I raced the marathon circuit what are we to do. I did the wall pulleys in the closet thing.

swimmerlisa
October 27th, 2006, 03:07 PM
I promise you, the most valuable thing you do for your underwater work is to practice every turn/pushoff/breakout like it was for an Olympic medal. .

Of course. All I was trying to say is that the added strength and agility i gain from the dryland training HELPS.

:dedhorse: :dedhorse:

the defense rests.

quicksilver
October 27th, 2006, 03:22 PM
-you can rest your swimming muscles and still get a great cardio work-out. (active recovery)

-it benefits one's leg strength... which is important for pushing off of the walls and having a good start.

-it offsets the unwanted calories associated with beer drinking and pie eating. (Tug boat shaped bodies are bad for swimming.)

-getting in a 45-60 minute run doesn't require a commute to the pool.

I am sure there are more....

chaos
October 27th, 2006, 03:54 PM
certainly, the best runners/triathletes, that i have the pleasure to swim with, loose as much of their "swimming shape" as the swimmers do when they are absent from the h2o. (no matter how much running and/or biking they do during that period)

as far as cross training... yoga addresses all the parts of my body i am prone to neglect.....in a good way!

LindsayNB
October 27th, 2006, 03:59 PM
Strong legs and strong kicks are what has helped me have such a succesfull underwater kick, fast turns and strong breastroke pullouts. ANY swimmer (not just club swimmers) can benefit from strenghtening of muscles. Weak swimmers are not fast swimmers.

I don't know if it was accurate or not but I remember reading that Michael Phelps was one of the weakest members of the olympic team. I can't remember for sure if running was part of his training regime.

SolarEnergy
October 27th, 2006, 04:02 PM
'specificity' 'specificity' 'specificity'

swimmerlisa
October 27th, 2006, 04:19 PM
from http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3871/is_200301/ai_n9234914

"In addition to water work, we religiously incorporated a "Mike Barrowman medicine ball routine" into his dryland routine, and we did a threeweek stay at altitude in Colorado Springs. He's followed his long course success with the best fall and winter he's ever had-by far."

I can't find any other info on his work outs - but it does appear dryland work is helping him. I would definitely say he is not the "weakest" member of the team - or did everyone hallucinate all those muscles? No one on that team is weak - especially not one of the fastest swimmers.

The Fortress
October 27th, 2006, 04:34 PM
In Michael Phelps' new book, his coach says that they tried to add a three mile run to his pre-Olympic training regimen, but dropped it quickly because his knees/back hurt and it produced little return. I think he was in his late teens when he started weight lifting.

Here's another quote from a great new book:

Bill Bowerman: "When they add hills to a track, I'll have my athletes run hills in practice." :D

And P.S. I can't resist. I am perfectly happy cross training with fins too from time to time. I find it does wonders for my SDKs and my backstroke starts are no longer in the neanderthal stage. Fins also builds leg strength, ankle strength and ankle flexibility. I know runners who swim for cross training when injured or resting and they like to use fins for that reason.

FlyQueen
October 27th, 2006, 07:13 PM
my events are 100/200 back....100 fly....100/200 IM. I rely heavily on my underwater work, which in turn leads to endurance so i can survive the whole event after so much underwater fly. I kick a lot during practice, but for me, and this is me personally, that extra work by running or in the weight room has helped. that's just me and my experience. to each his - or her - own. :cool:


Lisa, to each his or her own indeed! I'm glad it has worked for you personally. My point simply is that I think working on your underwater kick is going garner more benefits than running. Basically, that running is not a subsitute for swimming. I do think running helps with overall fitness, but I am not sure if has physiological gains for swimming.

All that being said, I talked to one of the Physical Therapists I work with about this and he said that it would help with cardiovascular fitness, but that any swimming gains need to be made in the pool because it is too sport specific. He also said swimming is a better cardio workout because of the use arms!

I would run as cross training simply to increase fitness levels if I could but my back can't handle it ...

scyfreestyler
October 27th, 2006, 07:20 PM
I think swimming is better cardio because it uses your arms AND your legs unlike running. Actually, I think swimming is better cardio because it does not beat up your joints, bones, and organs like running does.

gull
October 28th, 2006, 06:44 AM
All that being said, I talked to one of the Physical Therapists I work with about this and he said that it would help with cardiovascular fitness, but that any swimming gains need to be made in the pool because it is too sport specific.


Exactly what Maglischo says. He believes your time is better spent in the pool.

Kevin in MD
October 28th, 2006, 07:12 AM
I'll try to add a bit of actual science to the discussion to offset the folklore.

These guys (http://www.thieme-connect.com/ejournals/abstract/sportsmed/doi/10.1055/s-2002-19276) found no transfer between swimming and biking or swimming and running in elite triathletes. The triathletes were swimming 5 hours, bking 8 hours and running 3 hours per week on average.

On the other hand, studies in untrained inividuals have found training cross over from anything and everything, pills, strength training, running, wishful thinking (no I'm not kidding) etc. So the question becomes how trained are you? For maters swimers, that answer varies widely even within the same year. I could probably be considered untrained in January and highly trained in August, a scy swimmer would probably have the opposite profile.

Another part of this not mentioned is simply mental health. At certain times of the year a break from the black line is very helpful.

geochuck
October 28th, 2006, 09:39 AM
Those tri guys should know????

That completely tells me to break a Canadian record I only needed to train 800yards 3 x a week and race on Saturdays and not do the other stuff.

All that wall pulley stuff I did in the closet during the winter did not help when I was not able to swim in a pool. I guess I should have come out of the closet and not done it.

A physical therapist once put me back six months in a recovery with just 2 days of treatment, I hold most of their advice to be very bad.

Forget all that running I did up the ski hill in La Tuque I should have just stayed in the bar at the bottom of the hill.

KaizenSwimmer
October 28th, 2006, 10:15 AM
I'll try to add a bit of actual science to the discussion to offset the folklore.

The higher one's goals are set, the more helpful it is to rely on science rather than folklore. It seems as if you and I are in general agreement, if I can sum up my several posts succinctly:
1. Cross training can help prepare you aerobically for the physical demands of swim training when you have previously been sedentary or not swimming.
2. As your "swimming fitness" increases, x-training contributes less and less.
3. The closer you get to a personal peak performance - or when your goals tend in that direction - the more specific to activity your training must be.
4. However a completely valid rationale for x-training at any time remains - doing it purely because you enjoy it. In which case, going for a run or bike ride or hike on a beautiful fall day will aid your athletic ambitions far more than, say, sitting on a couch watching football on TV.

A personal anecdote may illustrate further. From 1993 to about 2005, my swimming goals were fitness, pleasure and stroke development not performance. I swam an average of four hours per week averaging about 14,000 yards per week. I probably did nearly as much x-training as swimming: mainly yoga, cycling, x-c skiing and rowing. These all contributed to my physical and mental health.
In a set of 500 yd training repeats I might have averaged about 6:45. Swam about 21:30 for 1650 in the few races I did.

This year, upon turning 55, I set serious competitive goals for the first time and increased my training frequency to an average of 7 hours and 24,000 yards per week. No more yoga, rowing or x-c skiing -- largely because in a packed schedule, something had to give. (I did do a 400-mile bike tour for vacation in July.) My weekly aerobic activity volume actually decreased somewhat, but my swimming got a LOT faster as that activity became swimming-specific. My 500 yard training repeats now average about 6:20 and I swim sub-20 for 1650.

KaizenSwimmer
October 28th, 2006, 10:23 AM
All that wall pulley stuff I did in the closet during the winter did not help when I was not able to swim in a pool. I guess I should have come out of the closet and not done it.

George, do you misunderstand and misinterpret on purpose or are you just in the habit of reading carelessly?


On the other hand, studies in untrained inividuals have found training cross over from anything and everything, pills, strength training, running, wishful thinking

I take slight comfort in seeing I'm not the only one whose posts seem to elude your comprehension.

geochuck
October 28th, 2006, 10:26 AM
I am sure science may prove other wise like the one who told me, you are the poorest conditioned athlete at these games. Then after the tests he gave me he said you have the 2nd strongest legs I have tested here. I am amazed how strong you are.

geochuck
October 28th, 2006, 10:29 AM
George, do you misunderstand and misinterpret on purpose or are you just in the habit of reading carelessly?



I take slight comfort in seeing I'm not the only one whose posts seem to elude your comprehension.

I read it I think it very shallow and most of it false. I understand that you may think it as proof positive.

geochuck
October 28th, 2006, 10:36 AM
You know what I think of your posts. You think everybody is stupid only you are right.

Now that is not what you said, I did not find the word stupid but you are saying that with your rude comments.

Terry do you really believe if those tri guys cut out their running and biking and did only their 5 hours of swimming a week their swimming would not suffer?

SolarEnergy
October 28th, 2006, 02:58 PM
I don't see how one's swimming performances can significantly benefit from either running or cycling, unless the subject is really 'unfit' swimming-wise.

8 years of coaching in triathlon and in swimming at elite level had lead me to this belief.

If I was was kept away from a pool for more than a week, and was given access to a gym, I would probably ergocycle for 30min and then would switch to a circuit-training mainly aimed at improving/maintaining upperbody muscular endurance.

I'd probably favor surgical rubber tubes to mimic swimming-like movements (link 1), chin ups to keep a healthy latissimus dorsi fitness (back muscles), dips and pushups for triceps and chest. I'd do abdominals and plenty of stretching too (link 2). All that at a uninterrupted rate so that a "minimal cardiovascular" activity be maintained thoughout the circuit training.

Last thing I'd do to keep swimming up to date : running.

Link 1 (tubing) : http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=227878#227878
Link 2 (stretching) : http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=235528#235528

gull
October 28th, 2006, 03:07 PM
I suspect the elite swimmers who "cross train" do so to get in some supplemental aerobic conditioning without further wear and tear on their shoulders. I doubt that they do so at the expense of pool time. My time is limited, and I hate running anyway, so I'll stick to the pool.

geochuck
October 28th, 2006, 03:08 PM
Is cross training only swimming running and cycling?

It seems that we forget the chin ups, the rowing, rope climbing, the medicine ball, kyaking and all the other sports. If you don't have water to train in you had better do something else.

I would rather do the swimming but it was not allways available.

SolarEnergy
October 28th, 2006, 06:28 PM
It seems that we forget the chin ups, the rowing, rope climbing, the medicine ball, kyaking and all the other sports. If you don't have water to train in you had better do something else.
This we use to do on top of the pool program, all year long, for what it's worth.

I don't know if it was good or not, but it was specific, demanding and fun too. Especially medicine ball. The vasa trainer can come in handy too.

What I particulary like with ropes, vasa trainer and medecine ball, is that you can use them to teach high elbow pulling.

gull
October 29th, 2006, 08:17 AM
Is cross training only swimming running and cycling?


She (The Fortress) asked specifically about running.

I use a dry land program to keep my shoulders "healthy."

geochuck
October 29th, 2006, 09:10 AM
You are right Gull

May be I should have said running only for cross training is not the way to go. I still think my running up the ski hill helped keep me fit when a pool was not available but there are other things we can do which I mentioned. The runs up the hill included a lot of scambling also and I did not just run.

I entered a race down the Saguenay River 28 miles. Came 3rd after being out of the water from November til July 1st race date July 9th or 10th. I guess my posts should not have mentioned other activities. Running was only a minor part of what I did.

I should be fined by the post police.

SolarEnergy
October 29th, 2006, 02:20 PM
I entered a race down the Saguenay River 28 miles. Came 3rd after being out of the water from November til July 1st race date July 9th or 10th. I have no doubt about your third position.

But this scenario is exceptional.

You're an exceptional swimmer. A 40k requires a lot of upper body specific muscular endurance. Most would have quit 30min into the race.

geochuck
October 29th, 2006, 02:29 PM
The main reason I did so well in that race is I used man tan all over my body. I placed it on my face with my googles on so everyone would think I had been swimming outdoors and they could see my gogle marks. I had done thousands of situps, the wall pulleys and dryland circuit training. I had lost weight and looked very fit.

Cliff Lumsden's wife told everybody look out for George he is in shape.

Howard
October 29th, 2006, 02:37 PM
The main reason I did so well in that race is I used man tan all over my body. I placed it on my face with my googles on so everyone would think I had been swimming outdoors and they could see my gogle marks. I had done thousands of situps, the wall pulleys and dryland circuit training. I had lost weight and looked very fit.

Cliff Lumsden's wife told everybody look out for George he is in shape.

You ever tire of talking about yourself. Or at least yourself 50 years ago?

geochuck
October 29th, 2006, 02:53 PM
Only when you say something intelligent.

50 years ago feels like it was yesterday.

Please tell us about something you have done I will be interested in hearing or reading it. If you don't like any off my posts it is a free world, don't tune in.

Howard
October 29th, 2006, 03:45 PM
Only when you say something intelligent.



What are you talking about?

LindsayNB
October 29th, 2006, 03:51 PM
Isn't this what private messaging is for?
:argue:

Howard
October 29th, 2006, 04:03 PM
You're right. Ramble on George.

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 29th, 2006, 05:02 PM
Only if you are runnig with scissors. It is a great movie. I think everyone should go see Running with Scissors.

geochuck
October 29th, 2006, 05:31 PM
If I remember right there was a lot of running in The Swimmer http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063663/

geochuck
October 30th, 2006, 10:17 AM
Just found this a quote from Bill Gates

The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Howard
October 30th, 2006, 10:26 AM
Does the quote relate to cross training somehow?

swimmerlisa
October 30th, 2006, 10:31 AM
cant we all just get along?

i'll tell a joke:

what did the snail say after he climbed on the turtle's back to cross the road?

geochuck
October 30th, 2006, 10:32 AM
Must I answer to you about my posts, are you the rules dictator? Swimmer lisa this note not meant for you.

Howard
October 30th, 2006, 11:19 AM
Must I answer to you about my posts, are you the rules dictator? Swimmer lisa this note not meant for you.

Let me ask a different and more civil way.

The discussion about cross-training has been a good one with lots of useful information. I want to be sure I didn't miss your point within the quote. Was it meant to relate to cross-training or did you just think it was a good quote?

geochuck
October 30th, 2006, 11:24 AM
The quote refers to the fact you must apply yourself to training whether cross training, specific training, or you will not accomplish anything. To relate to my past I did not accomplish all that I wanted but do not feel cheated.

scyfreestyler
October 30th, 2006, 11:32 AM
Only if you are runnig with scissors. It is a great movie. I think everyone should go see Running with Scissors.

Scissor Sisters? Are we talking about music now as well?


My goodness, this thread has taken some truly bizarre turns.

:laugh2:

SolarEnergy
October 30th, 2006, 11:43 AM
The problem with running as a means of improving swimming, is that ideally, one has to prepare carefully for a run training regiment.

Here are few recommendations :

- Ideally, consult a specialist. My english isn't good enough to tell you which specialist. But it should be someone specialized in shoe insole. This is in case your leg isn't in perfect alignment.
- Buy new running shoes. Don't take an old pair that you have in the basement. You need specialized shoes. The aforementioned specialist should be able to tell you if you need neutral or self-corrective shoes.
- Replace them on a regular basis
- Start a run training regiment by gradually building up the volume. You may start by as low as 15min 2 or 3 times/week. And add let's say 5min every week.
- Should you ever feel the slightest pain, lower the volume and/or perform some running in alternance with walking (http://www.jeffgalloway.com/training/marathon.html)

Bare in mind that running is biomechanically opposite to swimming. Great runners don't usually make good swimmers vice-versa. More specifically, the problem is the ankles. What you expect from them as a freestyle swimmer is totally the opposite as what you expect from them a runner.

Too many people recommend running as a means to improve fitness regardless of those important details. It's the case of most physed teachers, and poorly paid gym kinesiologists who don't hesitate to recommend it to overweight people on a treadmill, 30min in a row at the time with poor running shoes. A shame really !

poolraat
October 30th, 2006, 12:37 PM
cant we all just get along?

i'll tell a joke:

what did the snail say after he climbed on the turtle's back to cross the road?
It lools like nobody else is interested in the answer, so tell me.

As far as running for cross training, I would venture an opinion that there is some aerobic benefit but the other physical benefits are minimal. As a former runner (who quit 20 years ago after competing for the previous 20), I feel that the only real benefit to my swimming was the mental toughness I developed while a runner.

Kevin in MD
October 30th, 2006, 02:37 PM
Those tri guys should know????

That completely tells me to break a Canadian record I only needed to train 800yards 3 x a week and race on Saturdays and not do the other stuff.

All that wall pulley stuff I did in the closet during the winter did not help when I was not able to swim in a pool. I guess I should have come out of the closet and not done it.

Forget all that running I did up the ski hill in La Tuque I should have just stayed in the bar at the bottom of the hill.

It's not that the tri guys know anything at all, but rather that if you want to study whether running helps swimming, you need a population that does a fair bit of both. Triathletes are a population that does that. It's got nothing to do with how good or bad triathletes are as people.

It also doesn't show that if you can't swim you should sit on your butt and drink. It has to do with how well running transfers to swimming in trained athletes.

geochuck
October 30th, 2006, 02:47 PM
We can pick and chose scientific facts on both sides of the fence. Some are good and some not good. Which are we to believe?

swimmerlisa
October 30th, 2006, 02:51 PM
It lools like nobody else is interested in the answer, so tell me.


Thank you, for your curiousity!!

The snail goes "weeeeeeee!"

(pause for laughter)

you know, because the turtle is so fast....:rofl:

proberts
October 30th, 2006, 02:57 PM
Thats good.Tell some more.

For cross training for swimming I prefer the conept 2 rowing machine. Very low impact, increases strength and is a great aerobic workout.

proberts
October 30th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Sorry, its Concept 2.

Kevin in MD
October 30th, 2006, 03:26 PM
Yes, it's interesting that we haven't had a single post from a triathlete on this topic. There are, in fact, athletes that can swim and run.

We haven't?

poolraat
October 30th, 2006, 04:00 PM
Lisa
That's a pretty dumb joke.....and I like it!
Can't wait to tell it to my kids.

geochuck
October 30th, 2006, 04:02 PM
Yes very funny relates to cross training. Crossing the street.

swimmerlisa
October 30th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Lisa
That's a pretty dumb joke.....and I like it!
Can't wait to tell it to my kids.

:banana: make sure when you tell it you throw your hands up and say "weeee!" all high pitched. the kids will like it:-)

SolarEnergy
October 30th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Yes, it's interesting that we haven't had a single post from a triathlete on this topic. Would my post as a triathlon coach count? (even if I've never done, nor even thought of doing one single triathlon) ;)

quicksilver
October 30th, 2006, 04:46 PM
When I swam my last collegiate race in '84...I took a few years off...and re-emerged as a triathlete. :eek: After our town built a YMCA 6 years ago...the triathlon days are history.

(I still think running is a good cross training endeavor though.) There's a big difference between plopping into the pool at the start...versus entering the water at warp speed because your legs are so strong.

Kevin in MD
October 30th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Who are the tri guys/girls? I assumed you weren't because you were asking for their input. I'm not a triathlete, but I am a swimmer sprinter/LSD runner. I said earlier that I don't think running transfers to swimming much for me. However, having given up running for a week or so to get ready for a meet and then doing a couple of sub-par backstroke starts, I may rethink that. Maybe my running legs help my starts. Or maybe I'm just superstitious...

Well I am one. I didn't ask for triathletes' input, maybe you misread.

I'm a USAT certified triathlon coach and a triathlete. Triathletes are not always well respected in single sport circles so I dont run around advertising it.

chlorini
October 30th, 2006, 04:51 PM
A few years ago, I decided to train for and run a marathon. I still swam everyday, as well. My coach said that swimming would help my running because of the aerobic benefits, but that running wouldn't necessarily help my swimming. This is just personal experience and not scientific, but I found that to be true. I finished the marathon even though I was really undertrained from a purely running standpoint, and I think that was because of my swimming base. However, the running training didn't seem to affect my swimming -- except as someone mentioned, it helped a bit mentally. When I'd swim the 200 breast, I'd tell myself, "You ran 10 miles last night, so you can certainly stand less than three minutes of pain now!"

Now I run a bit for fun and to do the occasional 5K, but swimming is my focus. It's just that after swimming with my team early in the morning, I sit at a desk all day, and no matter how hard I worked in the morning, it still seems nice to move around when I get home. Running's convenient and can give a good workout in a fairly short amount of time. Anyway, this isn't really anything new from what others have said, but I thought I would share my experience. :agree:

The Fortress
October 30th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Kevin in MD:

I'm sorry. I thought from your comments that you weren't a triathlete because you spoke so generically of triathletes in the third person.

Triathletes do get a bum rap here sometimes, to be sure. I think it's mostly because it can sometimes be difficult for swimmers to train with swimmer-triathletes and vice versa. Their focus is so different. For example, I'm a stroker. I don't even like freestyle that much. But hopefully a good masters coach would separate the lanes and practices to suit the individuals.

I myself don't do triathlons because I don't like bikes or having to worry about fixing/buying/maintaining fancy expensive bikes or getting hit while on said bike. Unfortunately, I'm stuck with a triathlon/runner son, so it's headed my way.

P.S. I will admit to being a total Tour de France junkie. It's on every night at my house.

Chlorini:

I agree with you completely. I felt like swimming helped my running because my lungs were in good shape. But the reverse doesn't seem to be true for me (except strong legs for starts).

geochuck
October 30th, 2006, 05:32 PM
I am still not sure with these answers. Does cross-training with running help swimming? Is there a real answer of yes or no?

KaizenSwimmer
October 30th, 2006, 05:34 PM
I don't like bikes or "equipment" races.

I did a triathlon a few years ago. I had to leave early the next morning to drive to it, so the night before I started gathering and organizing all the gear I'd need. An hour spent getting stuff together reminded me what I like about swimming. I can gather everything I need for a practice or meet in two minutes and carry it all in a very small bag.

geochuck
October 30th, 2006, 05:59 PM
I know it hurts my knees, my last runnnig was done on the ski hills. Now I am lucky to be able to walk the knees however after my last knee replacement in February are starting to feel great, this winter in Mexico I will try a little running in the sand dunnes - maybe????

poolraat
October 30th, 2006, 06:55 PM
As a former runner who gave it up for many reasons, the main ones being that it was no longer fun and it made my feet and knees ache, I know I won't run even if there is a proven benefit. I'll stick with yoga and the weight room.

BTW Lisa,
My secretary thinks the joke was pretty good, too.

poolraat
October 30th, 2006, 07:58 PM
I'll tell it to my teenagers just to hear the groans.

Favorite runner: Billy Mills
Favorite triathlete: Dave Scott

swimmerlisa
October 30th, 2006, 08:51 PM
lol thanks, floyd and leslie, for liking the joke. i'll try to think of another silly one for another thread. :wiggle:

The Fortress
October 30th, 2006, 08:58 PM
Poolrat:

My son has a huge poster of Billy Mills winning the 10,000 at the 1964 Olympics and has watched that movie of his, Runnign Brave, a zillion times. It is an inspiring story. But Salazar is the man. Have you read Duel in the Sun? A great book!

poolraat
October 30th, 2006, 11:02 PM
Salazar is one of the greatest, but only a Native American (I am TeMoak Band of the Western Shoshone) can truely appreciate the obstacles that Billy Mills overcame to achieve success, both as a runner and as a person.

Kevin in MD
October 31st, 2006, 09:52 AM
I am still not sure with these answers. Does cross-training with running help swimming? Is there a real answer of yes or no?

The answer depends on whether you are a "trained" swimmer or not.

If you are a trained swimmer then no. So Ian Crocker, Michael Phelps, professional triathletes, running does nothing for their swimming.

On the other hand an untrained swimmer, then yes. If you are getting up from the couch, then any activity you do will improve your swimming.

The question becomes whether or not you are a "trained" athlete. Each of us has to answer that question on their own. Or do a bit of mathematical modeling to figure it out.

To expound on the theory behind it, it's a matter of central and peripheral adaptations and whether they are your limiter.

For untrained athletes your heart and lungs hold you back. You simply can't oxygenate and pump blood fast enough to supply your muscles. But after training for a while your heart and lungs are up to the task and next limiter is your muscles ability to process the oxygen that comes to it. These adaptations take longer and are more specific.

These muscle specific adaptations don't transfer from running to swimming. SO it just boils down to which stage of conditioning you are in.

geochuck
October 31st, 2006, 10:01 AM
Kevin

I must have been an untrained swimmer, who maybe had pretty good technique.

Yesterday after posting that when I go to Mexico I will run in the sand dunnes, my wife asked me to take the laundry to the washing machine. I ran out of the room down the hall all the way to the laundry room, loaded the washer and ran back to the living room.

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 10:01 AM
Sorry, Kevin. This is Ian's workout:

At the University of Texas, Crocker notched world records in the 100-meter, 50-meter butterfly, and 4x100-meter medley relay. His week mixes 18 hours of pool time with strength training.
THE PROGRAM: Three mornings a week, Crocker swims 2,000 yards, followed by an hour of sprints and stamina drills. Then he muscles through his weight training, which targets every major muscle group in his body. Tuesday and Thursday, his afternoon practice consists of a three-mile run, a series of push-ups, pull-ups, and jumping drills, and an evil exercise called "wheels." For this one, Crocker lies facedown on a rolling sled and, using his arms, pulls himself up a ramp at the football stadium. Monday through Friday, he ends his day with a repeat of his pool workout.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200408/crocker_krummenacker_blanton.html
Each athlete on this link is a professional athlete and each one cross trains. In fact, the specialist featured on the site says it is important to keep weight training up all season to maintain strength.

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 10:08 AM
It's okay, Leslie. I guess Ian Crocker is untrained too. :-)

geochuck
October 31st, 2006, 10:11 AM
After my latest tip on running do you think he will incorporate the run to the laundry and back in his training schedule.

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 10:13 AM
oh of course!

The expert on that site said (about another athlete), that "The body doesn't respond if you do the same thing all the time, so David works through a variety of training phases, which force his body to react and grow stronger and faster."

So I'm sure that laundry running constitutes as variety. :p

The Fortress
October 31st, 2006, 10:15 AM
Besides, do we have any choice in the matter? Someone's gotta wash all those towels and running shorts and whatnot. Gotta go cross train.

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 10:20 AM
Besides, do we have any choice in the matter? Someone's gotta wash all those towels and running shorts and whatnot. Gotta go cross train.

:laugh2:

i'm going to think of cleaning my condo and other such chores as cross training. it's a whole new sport! we'll call the main fitness event the "Great American Chores Games"

chaos
October 31st, 2006, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=swimmerlisa;66302]Sorry, Kevin. This is Ian's workout:

Tuesday and Thursday, his afternoon practice consists of a three-mile run, a series of push-ups, pull-ups, and jumping drills, and an evil exercise called "wheels." For this one, Crocker lies facedown on a rolling sled and, using his arms, pulls himself up a ramp at the football stadium.



Lisa, I would pose the question... Would Ian's swimming suffer if he cut the running from his program?

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 12:04 PM
i'm not his coach, so I have no idea. However, I would say if it's working for him, he should keep doing it. if he cuts all that extra stuff out, he will have to make some serious changes to his current swimming program. I am not so sure if he could gain back what's lossed from dropping the cross training.

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 12:06 PM
Do we know why he runs?

why else? for laundry. :cool:

it's a part of his dryland routine - to stay fit and for all those other reasons the pro-cross trainers have listed.

chaos
October 31st, 2006, 12:09 PM
Clearly, Ian has a well rounded training program (as i imagine most athletes of that caliber do), but running three miles a couple of days a week is one activity that i cannot identify as having specific benefits (or that are not made redundant by other activities on the list)
Am I wrong?

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 12:11 PM
You can read this entire 5 or 6 page thread - it's obvious no one can agree on whether running helps your swimming performance or not.

I think the consensus is to do what works for you.

chaos
October 31st, 2006, 12:24 PM
Lisa,
I have read the entire thread. (some of it was very painful) I'm sorry if I am taking the title a bit too literally, but i think the key word is help...as in does ct with running HELP swimming?

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 12:32 PM
if you're asking ME - i say yes. if you're asking terry laughlin, he says no. if you ask aquageek, he says yes. leslie is on the fence (i think). george says yes.

Like I said, if it works for you, do it. Obviously if you're doing it and you like it and you feel like it helps your level of fitness, your leg strength, your aerobic endurance, your heart, stamina, whatever your reason that you think you are benefiting from - do it. It's certainly not going to HURT you. How can it not help you? If you're doing anything that will benefit your endurance, stamina, strength - that will help you in the pool.

chaos
October 31st, 2006, 12:38 PM
As a controled experiment:
Take two weeks off from swimming and spend that time on the track or the road, or on trails, or on stairs. If you enter the water a better swimmer after that, I will go buy a pair of running shoes (and a singlet too).......deal?

aquageek
October 31st, 2006, 12:45 PM
Clearly, Ian has a well rounded training program (as i imagine most athletes of that caliber do), but running three miles a couple of days a week is one activity that i cannot identify as having specific benefits (or that are not made redundant by other activities on the list)
Am I wrong?

I doubt he is intentionally wasting his time. Obviously he finds it of some benefit.

aquageek
October 31st, 2006, 12:50 PM
As a controled experiment:
Take two weeks off from swimming and spend that time on the track or the road, or on trails, or on stairs. If you enter the water a better swimmer after that, I will go buy a pair of running shoes (and a singlet too).......deal?

This isn't a controlled experiement. No one would argue that taking two weeks off from swimming and doing anything else would be of value to swimming. Everyone knows that time away will be detrimental. C'mon, get real.

I think what some of us are saying is that we find swimming, in conjunction with running, is providing us value with swimming. None of us is alleging we would improve by quitting swimming and running only.

Damage Inc
October 31st, 2006, 12:52 PM
I can't say that it helps my swimming directly but it sure improves my Triathlon.

scyfreestyler
October 31st, 2006, 12:59 PM
This is one of the longest winded threads I have seen as of late!

Interesting how much time Crocker spends training out of the pool. I also found it interesting that he did his weight lifting after swimming (I recall having a debate with a few people about that last month on this website). I always say that everybody is different and the same training plan will have different effects on various people. Having said that, I happen to think that cross training can provide a real benefit to ANY swimmer; Masters or otherwise. Cross training will not bridge the gap between our own speed demon Mr. Rasmussen and WR holder Ian Crocker, but I do think that everybody would benefit in some fashion.

geochuck
October 31st, 2006, 01:20 PM
Crocker may have to double or triple his swim workouts if he did not xtrain.

scyfreestyler
October 31st, 2006, 01:20 PM
Ande's blog is pretty long but that is not really a discussion thread. I think one of the longest I have seen is the one that is now closed...if you know what I mean.

quicksilver
October 31st, 2006, 01:23 PM
The singlet ...also known as a man-kini....or man-bra ....must be worn in the water as well.

Don't ask why. Whoever invented this garment is probably still laughing at the magnitutude of a practical joke which went very very wrong.

aquageek
October 31st, 2006, 01:33 PM
The singlet ...also known as a man-kini....or man-bra ....must be worn in the water as well.

Now this really cracked me up. Unfortunately, I was on a conference call at the time.

What is the point of this man-kini? Is it a vanity thing for biking and running?

Frank Thompson
October 31st, 2006, 01:47 PM
Many years ago in Sports Illustrated I read about the new superstar swimmer that was starting to turn the swimming world upside down. His name was Michael Gross and was nicknamed "the Albatross". He set World Records that year in the 200 Fee, 400 Free, and the 200 Fly and was the Olympic Gold medalist in 1984 in the 200 Free, 100 Fly, and was upset by Jon Sieben in the 200 Fly and got the silver. They decribed his days activity and workouts. One of things that surprised me was how much running he did on the roads and trails as part of his workout. He was 6' 7" inches and weighted between 170 and 175. He had a wing span of 7 feet and 5 inches. He had the most unusal body I had ever seen for swimming until Ian Thorpe and Michael Phelps came along.

I believe the article said he ran between 10K and 15k about 3 times a week at a fairly fast pace of 6 minutes per mile or faster. I remember the explanation for this was that it was good cross training for himself just like the dryland work he did as part of his routine. He said it really didn't help his swimming technically but in ways helped his overall endurance and cut down on the massive volumes of work that he was doing in the pool. That he was able to punish his body in a different way aerobically and adapt to a different level of physical stress overload worked for him and thus increase his endurance fitness to maximize anaerobic and speed development later in the training cycle for swimming. As he got closer to his peak meets he would back off on the running and then not do it at all. That the running, just like the dryland and weights was only part of the training in the early period cycle and that they are not substitutes for swimming but complement the swimming training.

Another study that I remember reading in Swim Technique was a substiute of running for swimming during a 2 week time period. I believe the study was done by David Costill and the results of the study revealed that VO2 max may have increased but swimming performance did not compared to the swimmers that did not run but just swam. My believe here is that this makes complete sense. Because swimming not only requires training the different systems but technical water training that you would not experience in running. Another words the constant repetition of body movements contibutes to skills while you are swimming developing specificity to that particular stroke, drill, or sets that you do while developing the body to be swim specific and not just building endurance aerobically.

Damage Inc
October 31st, 2006, 01:55 PM
Ah, finally someone on this thread who owns up to being a triathlete. You didn't say who your favorite runner and triathete is though... Did you vote in the poll? If everyone votes, this thread won't be so long winded.
Voted: yes
Triathlete: yes
ManBra: no
Fav Runner: :confused:
Fav Triathlete: MarK Allen
Long Winded Posters::blah:

aquaFeisty
October 31st, 2006, 03:08 PM
Wow, I don't look at the USMS forums for a few days and then it takes me an hour just to catch up on this one thread!!

I am running now and not swimming because my team's season does not start until mid-Nov (we take the SCM season off) and I suck at swimming on my own. Actually, I suck at training any sport without a team/group.

So... the running is for a 10k I'm doing with my sister Nov 11 (running on my own, but fear of utter humiliation by baby sister keeps me going). Swim team starts back up Nov 15th. The running will help my swimming simply because if I wasn't training for the 10k I'd probably be sitting on my butt. As soon as I finish that 10k I don't plan to run again until after IL States (April). Then I'll run enough to respectably finish the local triathlon I do.

In the past, I have run before during the swim season. Didn't notice anything wrt freestyle, but running destroys my breaststroke. My legs are pooped. The breaststroke times really drop when I stop running, but I get the same effect by tapering too (50 breast dropped over 3 sec last season from in-season meets to tapered meets), so dunno if the time improvement is from running or just tapering.

Regardless, the only thing I really believe about running is QUIT RUNNING at least a week or 2 (or more) out from your big shave-and-taper meet!

aquaFeisty
October 31st, 2006, 03:10 PM
Speedo-man scares me worse than any man-kini ever could...

:laugh2:

geochuck
October 31st, 2006, 03:14 PM
The name that should never be spoken is more than likely still here using another name.

aquaFeisty
October 31st, 2006, 03:14 PM
Leslie, you should try a triathlon. They are fun! Here is how I do them:

1. All-out sprint the swim. Save nothing.
2. Savor the moment of glory exiting first in your heat on the swim.
3. Watch bikers pass you. Tell yourself it's because they have really expensive bikes.
4. Watch runners from 4 heats behind you pass you on the run. Remind yourself about 'winning' the swim.
5. Finish and hit the food tent.

:D

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 03:28 PM
The name that should never be spoken is more than likely still here using another name.

what are these allusions to other threads you guys are talking about?

did something....BAD....happen to a thread?

dun dun dun!!!

(cue corny soap opera music)

chaos
October 31st, 2006, 04:56 PM
David:

This thread isn't painful. It's funny. Now, if you want painful, there are many others that fit the bill, like the freestyle stroke question thread and one who's name must never be spoken.

please refer to the middle to end of page 3 of this thread for "painful".

i'll have you know i have a highly developed sense of humor...here goes:
i just watched a video featuring michael phelps in which he claims his favorite food is ice cream. so, i am blowing off masters tonight and RUNNING to the dairy queen instead. i wonder what flavor is good for butterfly?

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 04:58 PM
please refer to the middle to end of page 3 of this thread for "painful".

i'll have you know i have a highly developed sense of humor...here goes:
i just watched a video featuring michael phelps in which he claims his favorite food is ice cream. so, i am blowing off masters tonight and RUNNING to the dairy queen instead. i wonder what flavor is good for butterfly?


duh - BUTTERpecan of course. :joker:

geochuck
October 31st, 2006, 05:00 PM
I did not know that Dairy Queen was Ice Cream. I used to buy pineapple shakes for my wife when she was pregnant. Which seemed to be pretty freqent.

swimmerlisa
October 31st, 2006, 05:00 PM
Oh i forgot to post the link to the poll:

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=6906

chaos
October 31st, 2006, 05:02 PM
David:

Ah, the bottom of page 3 was nothing compared to some stuff I've read. Check out those TI battles.

Have fun eating ice cream.

truth is due to lactose intolerance, my wife only allows tofutti in the house:(

scyfreestyler
October 31st, 2006, 05:07 PM
David:

Ah, the bottom of page 3 was nothing compared to some stuff I've read. Check out those TI battles.



Two years ago I would have never believed that such a controversy could be stirred over swim training methods. :joker:

Peter Cruise
October 31st, 2006, 07:43 PM
We have had several threads spiral out of control over the past few years; some posts so appalling that I (and I suspect some others) grabbed spouse to share the sense of shocked incredulity by reading the thread(s). Spouse responds "But why don't you just use Ignore?" Problem was most threads started out as interesting questions but mutated into lockout material before our very eyes. We lost quite a few people who do not post here anymore and I hope we don't go that way again.

geochuck
October 31st, 2006, 07:56 PM
Peter I never let my spouse see any post I place or read she would say why can you not be more agreeable that is not being Canadian.

geochuck
October 31st, 2006, 08:06 PM
Back to point - Old school for sure don't do this don't do that it will not be good for those long smooth swimming muscles. My coach did not believe this and I do not believe it. I believe it is Ok to cross train.

LindsayNB
October 31st, 2006, 09:25 PM
One of the problems with these discussions is that you get different people talking about different things. For example, by their wording some people seem to be arguing on whether any form of cross training is helpful while others are talking specifically about whether running is useful.

Here's a possibly whacko theory. Gary Hall Jr. is on the record that he thinks swimming long "aerobic" sets is harmful to sprinters because those types of sets have an adverse effect on developing the perfect technique that is essential to top notch sprinting. Now, if the theory is that aerobic exercise is important, even for sprinters, then perhaps it is a good idea to get that aerobic exercise in ways that don't interfere with always maintaining perfect technique in the pool?

I have actually wondered why the mega metres are necessary for people who compete in such short distances. Are all those metres really about being in good enough shape to practice more so than to actually race? I know I would have to be in much better shape than I am if I wanted to do all the choice/specialty sets as good quality butterfly.

geochuck
October 31st, 2006, 09:33 PM
One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this thread Lindsay.

KaizenSwimmer
October 31st, 2006, 09:58 PM
I have actually wondered why the mega metres are necessary for people who compete in such short distances. Are all those metres really about being in good enough shape to practice more so than to actually race?

Lindsay, you ask a question that deserves to be asked more frequently. I believe, as you suggest, that a good deal of the training that's done in the higher yardage programs is designed to prepare the athletes for yet more training. And it often seems to overlook the true purpose of training - to win races.

In pure bioenergetic terms, it's hard to justify training 3 to 4 hours a day for races that last 2:00 or less. But so much of training is wasteful - between yardage done without acute attention to form to the de rigeur pulling and kicking sets. If those sets were repurposed to rigorous rehearsals of skills or tactics that relate directly to the race experience most athletes could probably swim faster on fewer hours.

Popov was known to do macrocycles in which his daily volume exceeded 20,000m for several weeks at a time. When Touretski was asked why, he replied: "More opportunities to practice correct technique." From the time I read that I made it my touchstone for all decisions on training volume.

chaos
November 1st, 2006, 08:43 AM
I have actually wondered why the mega metres are necessary for people who compete in such short distances. Are all those metres really about being in good enough shape to practice more so than to actually race? I know I would have to be in much better shape than I am if I wanted to do all the choice/specialty sets as good quality butterfly.

Lindsay, good question/point.
The ratio of training to racing (even for long distance swimmers) is huge.
I think I would burn out if I didn't look forward to some small victory in every practice session (or at least every week). Knowing that friday is stroke (swimming) day keeps me psyched all week.
I have read statistics that only 30% +/- of masters swimmers are actively participating in competition. In that regard, this forum fails to represent the usms population for whom being in good enough shape to practice/train more is a perfectly desirable end product

pickedaname
March 20th, 2010, 10:44 PM
WOW old post but I must say...
For someone who just started swimming at 38 (11 months ago), I am in need of a way to increase my cardio capacity in the pool (without having to swim 5 hrs a day) to where I can sprint with more than just a two beat kick for more than 50yds at a time without reverting back to 2 beat just to keep going. Most of my masters training is done with a 2 beat because as soon as I really engage my legs, my hr goes through the roof and fatigue sets in fast. We'll do from 3300 to 5300 yds every session and I keep up with the 2 beat.
Sets like 20 x 50y sprint are doable as long as I have enough recovery time between but it's too long. SO a few days ago I started running. I have the same problem running so I know I've found my weakness in the water, using my legs. I'm going to use running to increase stamina with my legs and improve my cardio performance on the 'between-masters' days. I'll repost here if it helps.

joshua
March 21st, 2010, 12:51 AM
My own personal experience is that running has no effect on swimming except for GPP. I also feel that running could actually have a detrimental effect as far as ankle flexibility is concerned. Why not just do kicking sessions in the pool?

In a related point, I have also found that heavy squatting in the weight room has no positive effect on my swimming. In general I now feel that the major importance of dry land training is:
1. Strengthening agonist muscles used in swimming in order to improve stroke efficiency.
2. More importantly, strengthening their antagonists in order to prevent muscular imbalance and injuries.

Stevepowell
March 21st, 2010, 05:22 PM
Joshua, Would you please detail some of the agonist muscle work you do?

Thanks in advance.

Jimbosback
March 21st, 2010, 06:16 PM
WOW old post but I must say...
For someone who just started swimming at 38 (11 months ago), I am in need of a way to increase my cardio capacity in the pool (without having to swim 5 hrs a day) to where I can sprint with more than just a two beat kick for more than 50yds at a time without reverting back to 2 beat just to keep going. Most of my masters training is done with a 2 beat because as soon as I really engage my legs, my hr goes through the roof and fatigue sets in fast. We'll do from 3300 to 5300 yds every session and I keep up with the 2 beat.
Sets like 20 x 50y sprint are doable as long as I have enough recovery time between but it's too long. SO a few days ago I started running. I have the same problem running so I know I've found my weakness in the water, using my legs. I'm going to use running to increase stamina with my legs and improve my cardio performance on the 'between-masters' days. I'll repost here if it helps.


I started swimming again last year, and I actually trained cardio for 6 months with just fast, comfortable walking (3.5-4 mph) on the treadmill (I also weight trained). I didn't have any problems associated with running - shin splints, knees, etc, but my cardio, especially recovery time, improved a lot. I'd just kept the incline to where my HR was at 80% or so (like 160 BPM) for 45 minutes, then a cool down. This was recommended to me by my 'fitness advisor' at my gym. I did it at least 3 days a week, and it made things a lot easier once I started swimming (a few months ago). I am sure it would still help if I cross-trained on the treadmill, but I don't have enough free hours to add it in now. Good luck.

FindingMyInnerFish
March 23rd, 2010, 10:10 AM
I must have a lot of endurance. I read this whole thread! :D

I'm not a contender at either running or swimming, although I enjoy both and would not want to give up either one.

My main sport is running, but I am injury-prone. If I didn't have the swimming, I'd be much more so. And when injuries keep me from running, I'm especially glad that I'm not without a means to stay fit.

Interestingly, when I first began masters swimming, I noticed improvements in my running times--also in my swimming, but that was to be expected. When I'm just running and not swimming at all, I can to some degree improve my running--but as a recent experience showed me, I do so at some cost. While training for a marathon and increasing mileage, I developed plantar fasciitis and had to cut back drastically on running.

So it was back to the pool for more swimming. And as a result I finally (don't laugh!) broke 2 mins. in the 100 freestyle). But I didn't do that well with an open water swim of 2 miles. (And I noticed that upper arm and shoulder muscles suffered in my training for that swim--but not to the degree that I needed to stop.)

Since I happen to love participating in both sports, I am less concerned about whether one helps the other as about finding the right mix of both.

Bobinator
March 23rd, 2010, 11:42 AM
Dairy Queen is not "ice cream" it's "ice milk". T

SolarEnergy
March 23rd, 2010, 04:52 PM
I got back to swimming in 2009, with a very strong cross training background. My 30-60min sustainable threshold power is very high (cycling / cross-training).

Long story short, I continued maintaining this fitness since I feared that loosing it could have a detrimental impact on my swim performances.

In other words, I am trying to answer this thread's question from the opposite perspective. Not sure it it's a good idea for a pure swimmer to start cross training in order to improve swim performances. But in the same time, when you already have a very strong fitness base built either in running or cycling or rowing (whatever), a strong base that needs minimal maintenance as opposed to optimal development, I think it's part of you. I feared (and continue to fear) that loosing this fitness base could have detrimental impact on swim performances (for longer events of course).

orca1946
March 23rd, 2010, 06:50 PM
Boy do I miss running !! Two right hip replacements :cane::cane:- no more running for me :badday::badday:. When I used to run 30 miles a week & swim , my legs never were tired in the pool . I miss it !

rtodd
March 23rd, 2010, 07:39 PM
If you run too much aerobic distance stuff, it will hurt your swimming performance becuase it will in one way or another, cut into and affect your swim training. I would stick with some interval training and plyo drills on the track. I think this would help. Maybe repeat 400's, 200's, or 100's. Maybe a hard mile a few times a week. I would stay away from plodding out 3+ mile runs.
Triathletes are not the best they can be at any individual sport, only the three put togehter. If all you want to do is swim fast, be careful about too much cross training.

The Fortress
March 23rd, 2010, 07:44 PM
As the OP, I will just note that since I have essentially given up running, I've become a better swimmer. I get more bang for my buck with core-based weights/plyos/drylands and I hammer the legs in the pool. If I attempt to add running on top of that, my legs get overtrained right away and the quality of my swimming workouts deteriorates. Plus, I am prone to ankle injuries in running, which are better avoided. Caveat: I am a sprinter. Perhaps running would be more useful for distance swimmers, though I suspect there that more swimming would be useful. I have to do some cross training though, or I would die of boredom. If I'm looking for more aerobic work, I'd probably add on cycling.

Running, however, is the flat out best thing for weight control and hard to resist in the spring and fall.

That Guy
March 23rd, 2010, 11:39 PM
Running helps me swim faster!!! Really it does. I don't know why this is true but it is. I used to think of my meet preparation as 48 hours before the meet (run 2 days before, don't run 1 day before) but now I recognize up to one week as being significant. This is not a mini-taper since my weekly volume (other than weights) is normal. Here's the current schedule for a Saturday meet:

Saturday prior: Last weight workout. No more weights or drylands until after the meet. Swim normal-length workout with a race-pace swim of the longest event that I'm going to do the following Saturday (e.g. the 500 free prior to the upcoming PNA Championships).
Sunday: Bike around 10-15 miles, run 30 minutes, do yard work (yes yard work counts! As... something! Get it out of the way early!) No swimming unless I've got an early meeting on an upcoming weekday.
Monday: Bike-commute normal miles plus a few extra to account for no biking on upcoming Saturday. Swim normal workout with race pace of second-longest event included (400 IM)
Tuesday: Bike-commute normal miles plus a few extra to account for no biking on upcoming Saturday. Swim normal workout, including race-pace third-longest upcoming event (200 fly). Run 18 minutes.
Wednesday: Bike-commute normal miles plus a few extra to account for no biking on upcoming Saturday. Swim normal workout, possibly including race-pace fourth-longest upcoming event (200 back).
Thursday: Bike-commute normal miles. Swim normal workout, possibly including race-pace fifth-longest upcoming event (100 fly). Run 12 minutes, completing normal volume of 1 hour/week (yes that's quite low, since these days I'm not training for any events that actually involve running).
Friday: Bike-commute normal miles, completing normal volume of 100 miles/week. Swim short workout (1500 yards, no main set, just some 25 fly sprints).
Saturday: Watch out. If I've done the above correctly, some fast swims are coming. All the meet warmup/warmdown more than makes up for Friday's lack of volume. Swimming volume for the week ends up a bit above normal.

david.margrave
March 24th, 2010, 12:46 AM
I wish I had a solid answer this question, but the periods in my life when I swam a lot and ran a lot are completely non-overlapping. The best 2 mile run I ever did was low 13 minutes at age 21 when I was not swimming at all. It would be nice to know what I could have swam a 1650 in at age 21, or what I could have swam a 1650 in at age 15 if I'd also been a runner at that age.

Currently I'm just running 2 miles once a week - hardly even worth mentioning compared to what most joggers do, and probably not enough to have an influence on my swimming.

aztimm
March 24th, 2010, 12:51 AM
Running helps me swim faster!!! Really it does. I don't know why this is true but it is. I used to think of my meet preparation as 48 hours before the meet (run 2 days before, don't run 1 day before) but now I recognize up to one week as being significant. This is not a mini-taper since my weekly volume (other than weights) is normal. Here's the current schedule for a Saturday meet:


Thank you for sharing this, as well as your whole routine. I know that I've gotten faster from running, but I also started and got serious with lifting around the same time. My times in practice now are faster than when I last did meets some time ago.

I really appreciate the schedule too, as someone else who also does multiple sports it helps to know what I could/should do, if I decide to swim in another meet.

The major problem I have with swimming and running at the same time is my feet + legs cramping up while swimming. this happened quite a bit last summer when I was running mornings and swimming evenings.

I used to be a half decent runner when I was in the military...they gave us a great incentive. If we scored 100% on our PT test, we were exempt from regular PT. I probably did much more on my own, but it allowed me to sleep in most of the time...except for the rare battalion, brigade, or above runs. I've accepted I'll never get back to that speed, which is why I also won't run a 2 mile for time anymore ;)

__steve__
March 24th, 2010, 07:37 AM
The only time I run is for my, twice a year, fit test with the usafr. Running tears up my legs because I'm not good at it.

That Guy
March 24th, 2010, 09:54 AM
I've accepted I'll never get back to that speed, which is why I also won't run a 2 mile for time anymore ;)

I don't run fast anymore. I used to bang out 6 minute miles but the resulting wear and tear on my knees was significant. 8 minute miles work much better for me. For now at least.

geochuck
March 24th, 2010, 10:15 AM
Swim, then swim, and then swim some more. If we were meant to run we would have been born with runnunig shoes on our feet.

ViveBene
March 24th, 2010, 11:18 AM
Swim, then swim, and then swim some more. If we were meant to run we would have been born with runnunig shoes on our feet.

Like the dorsal and pectoral fins we were born with to help us maneuver through the water? :) ;)

Good to see you back posting; did you find Allen Stark's thread on the butterfrog controversy?

We were also born with ability to run very nicely, the brain to create running shoes, the cunning to market them, and the gullibility to buy them.

Do fish swim downhill?

geochuck
March 24th, 2010, 11:33 AM
Good to be back in Canada. We do have dorsal muscles.

Saw some strange stuff on our way back home from Mexico in Mazatlan. A carlot bombing using hand grenades. They shot the carlot staff with AK47s. We passed the place a couple of minutes after it happened. The police and army were running around with rifles and guns at the ready. My wife said get out of here before the gas tanks explode.

aztimm
March 24th, 2010, 12:45 PM
I don't run fast anymore. I used to bang out 6 minute miles but the resulting wear and tear on my knees was significant. 8 minute miles work much better for me. For now at least.

I broke 11 min for the 2 mile run several times, my fastest was 10:30. Maybe it was your great Northwest air, since I was at Ft Lewis. Now sometimes it feels like it takes that long just to run 1 mile. But I'm also happy holding close to an 8 min pace now.


With proper conditioning, distance running doesn't have to poorly impact your swimming. I've seen little difference between doing a shorter/faster fartlek run or a longer run and swimming later in the day. You certainly don't want to just jump in and do a marathon out of the blue. I can see sprint/track running being as bad or worse.

shane
March 24th, 2010, 02:54 PM
Swim, then swim, and then swim some more. If we were meant to run we would have been born with runnunig shoes on our feet.

could not agree more:agree:

Lump
March 24th, 2010, 03:03 PM
Swim, then swim, and then swim some more. If we were meant to run we would have been born with runnunig shoes on our feet.

I agree for the most part, but most would run (rather swim) into burnout. Its nice to get out of the pool when the weather in nice and enjoy some other scenery. Its as good for your mental health as it is your physical!

shahboz
March 24th, 2010, 03:31 PM
In addition to targeted weights/plyo/stretching I have found running intervals/sprinting beneficial. I know my starts and turns have more power and my swimming in general feels stronger when this is part of my routine. I will say that I consider myself a sprinter so it makes sense to mirror the events I am swimming.

lefty
March 24th, 2010, 03:44 PM
As the OP, I will just note that since I have essentially given up running, I've become a better swimmer. I get more bang for my buck with core-based weights/plyos/drylands and I hammer the legs in the pool. If I attempt to add running on top of that, my legs get overtrained right away and the quality of my swimming workouts deteriorates.

I consider you a semi-expert on this Fort because I know you are in-tune with how you feel and you compete at a pretty high level. Well that and I agree with you. I have more or less changed sports to triathlon and I have lost significant speed in the pool even though I am over all in better shape. My legs are just too tired to swim well.

A specific example:

Last August I did 3 x 500's in SCM on 6:40. I averaged 6:28. I started running 18-25 miles per week in September. Last week I did the set in yards and averaged 6:04. I do not have a SCM to SCM comparison, but I am quite certain I would be in the 6:45 range now so 3-4 seconds slower per 100.

I was typically swimming 15,000 per week last year, and now I am around 12,000 but in terms of overall conditioning I am doing MORE now (I have another kid on the way, so getting the training in now).

Why does running shread your legs so much more than say kicking?

shane
March 24th, 2010, 03:44 PM
I agree for the most part, but most would run (rather swim) into burnout. Its nice to get out of the pool when the weather in nice and enjoy some other scenery. Its as good for your mental health as it is your physical!


yes but that is what bicycles are for.

aquageek
March 24th, 2010, 03:58 PM
I consider you a semi-expert on this Fort because I know you are in-tune with how you feel and you compete at a pretty high level. Well that and I agree with you. I have more or less changed sports to triathlon and I have lost significant speed in the pool even though I am over all in better shape. My legs are just too tired to swim well.

Yeah, you are a triathlete cause only a triathlete would make this statement. Within 10 seconds of speaking to a group of tris, you will hear one of the four following excuse statements:

I ran yesterday so my swimming today stinks.
I biked yesterday so my swimming stinks today.
I have to save my legs in swimming for the bike and run.
I can't swim hard today as I have a 95 mile ride this afternoon.

Go hard or go home. Stop the excuses.

lefty
March 24th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Yeah, you are a triathlete cause only a triathlete would make this statement. Within 10 seconds of speaking to a group of tris, you will hear one of the four following excuse statements:

I ran yesterday so my swimming today stinks.
I biked yesterday so my swimming stinks today.
I have to save my legs in swimming for the bike and run.
I can't swim hard today as I have a 95 mile ride this afternoon.

Go hard or go home. Stop the excuses.

For the record, I can kick your tail in every facet of a tri (and I highly disagree with the train hard or go home sentiment. I prefer to train smart, but that might be expecting too much from you!).

aquageek
March 24th, 2010, 04:15 PM
For the record, I can kick your tail in every facet of a tri (and I highly disagree with the train hard or go home sentiment. I prefer to train smart, but that might be expecting too much from you!).

Well, I have no doubt that is true. Maybe if you show up in Atlanta we can settle it in the pool, or will your widdle wunning wegs be too sore from your jogging to get to the ATL?

lefty
March 24th, 2010, 05:07 PM
Well, I have no doubt that is true. Maybe if you show up in Atlanta we can settle it in the pool, or will your widdle wunning wegs be too sore from your jogging to get to the ATL?

Oh Geek, our pecking order in the pool has long since been settled...

PS: you started it!

aquageek
March 24th, 2010, 05:10 PM
Oh Geek, our pecking order in the pool has long since been settled...

PS: you started it!

Dang, those must be chicken legs you are running on.

pwb
March 25th, 2010, 10:17 AM
I think when many people think of adding running to their swimming, they add aerobic running. What would happen, for sprinters like Fortress (for example), if sprint running (e.g., train like Usain) was added as a dryland exercise complement to the pool? My hypothesis would be that training for a 100 yard/meter run might be beneficial from a leg explosiveness for starts/turns for people training for a 50/100 yard swim.

elise526
March 25th, 2010, 11:00 AM
I think when many people think of adding running to their swimming, they add aerobic running. What would happen, for sprinters like Fortress (for example), if sprint running (e.g., train like Usain) was added as a dryland exercise complement to the pool? My hypothesis would be that training for a 100 yard/meter run might be beneficial from a leg explosiveness for starts/turns for people training for a 50/100 yard swim.

I tend to agree. I'm not on Fort's level, but I do think my HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) on the treadmill and the track help my explosiveness. These things are like weights though, so I think you have to be careful with how much you do so that you don't get too broken down.

Although I like to do it every now and then, supposedly, doing aerobic running works against keeping certain muscle fibers in fast-twitch mode. Lately, if I want to get out and enjoy the nice weather without an intense workout, I just walk.

I find that doing at least one hard run a week keeps the nerves in the legs sharp. I love to kick, but I've discovered that there is nothing like being in decent run shape to keep my legs from dying or cramping on a swim race.

My best 50 fly and 100 I.M. time in masters was in 2003. I wore a kneeskin, but had been running 17 to 25 miles a week up until 2 weeks before the meet. This certainly wasn't because I was at my lightest. My worse masters times were during a period when I was 5 pounds lighter than I was in 2003.

joshua
March 25th, 2010, 11:30 AM
Joshua, Would you please detail some of the agonist muscle work you do?

Thanks in advance.

First off, I strongly recommend "Swimming Anatomy" by Ian Mcleod. It thoroughly covers this topic for all 4 strokes along with great illustrations.

To be honest, at this time I am only swimming. The only dry land activity I do is stretching. As I have gotten older I feel that a good stretching session after swimming (10-15 minutes), with emphasis on my shoulder girdle, is of great importance.

I will eventually get back to strength training and I personally have always favored composite exercises that hit alot of musculature: various pushups, dips, pullups, squats etc. You don't even need a weight room. Try a good full body circuit at home. In 20 minutes you will be blasted.

joshua
March 25th, 2010, 11:33 AM
Boy do I miss running !! Two right hip replacements :cane::cane:- no more running for me :badday::badday:. When I used to run 30 miles a week & swim , my legs never were tired in the pool . I miss it !

Yikes, that's scary :afraid:. How old were you when you had the hip surgery?

aquageek
March 25th, 2010, 11:37 AM
On this topic, I am both completely torn and completely confused. For me, the biggest benefit of cross training is keeping my interest in swimming high by diversifying my workouts. When I focus solely on swimming, as I am now, it does get a bit boring at times. However, when I was doing a lot of cross training, my swimming clearly suffered.

I will say I think weights and yoga or other stretch and strengthening program do have value both from a flexibility and injury prevention perspective. But, will running 20 miles a week help your swimming, no way, but it will help your running. The strength and conditioning coach at our club does a lot of explosive running and sled pulls, which I think is of great value, but that's really more what PWB and Elise are referring to versus a lot of long runs.

joshua
March 25th, 2010, 11:44 AM
As an older athlete (56) I have also found that I have to consider my recovery ability more than in the past. I had trouble scheduling heavy lifting and serious swimming because it sometimes took me 48 hours to recuperate from a heavy lifting session. I decided to prioritize swimming so I dropped heavy lifting. I think that I would have the same problem juggling running with swimming, although I realize that triathletes do it. Luckily, I do not have this problem because I don't like running.

Bobinator
March 25th, 2010, 11:50 AM
My 2 cents worth:

I think running is a good cardio replacement to use if your shoulders are sore or twingy. After all an injured swimmer is pretty useless in a swimming race. A swimmer that suffers from terminally shot shoulders could even work a regular run or two into their weekly training to keep the stress off their shoulders but still maintain a good aerobic base.
With that said I will say that slogging (running long and slow ie 8:00 per mile or slower) will probably NOT enhance a swimmers aerobic capacity. (unless they are an equally slow swimmer).
Treadmill running is approximately :24 seconds per mile slower than the said pace the readout gives you. The treadmill is actually doing some of the "foot on the ground" work for you so it takes much less effort.
Okay, I know I'm going to get blasted for that.....but it is true! :afraid:

lefty
March 25th, 2010, 02:29 PM
For me, the biggest benefit of cross training is keeping my interest in swimming high by diversifying my workouts.

me too, plus you can wake up at 5:55, out the door at 6:00, have a great 45 minute run, in the shower at 6:50 out the door again at 7:05. No driving to the pool, changing in and out of a swimsuit, using public showers etc...

elise526
March 25th, 2010, 02:52 PM
Treadmill running is approximately :24 seconds per mile slower than the said pace the readout gives you. The treadmill is actually doing some of the "foot on the ground" work for you so it takes much less effort.
Okay, I know I'm going to get blasted for that.....but it is true! :afraid:

Funny you should mention this because I recently found out that my favorite treadmill at the Y was reading out a pace that was .3 mph SLOWER than what it was actually doing. Some of the diehards apparently figured this out.

I imagine the studies have been done that show the amount of time to run a certain mph on the treadmill is slower than running at the same speed on the road. The thing that can make the treadmill challenging, however, is that when you run on the road, you aren't consistently on pace. If you are looking to run say a 7:00 minute mile on the road, you will run slower than this at some time during the mile and faster than this at some time during the mile. If you plug a certain mph on the treadmill, however, you don't get the variance. Not being able to vary your speed over the course of a mile is what I find challenging.

Of course, on my HIIT workouts, I'm always varying the speed, so I'm not sure it really matters.

Frankly, I find it much easier to run 38 to 40 second 200 meter sprints (11 mph for each 200 during an 8 x 200 workout) at the track than on the treadmill. If I'm able to consistently run 10 mph on the treadmill, I can go 11 mph at the track. Not that this is fast or anything, but it gets the HR up. I'm not a big fan of going all-out on the treadmill either. My worst wipeout on land has been when I lost my footing on the treadmill while talking to somebody as I was running fast on the treadmill. Tore up my knees worse than any bike wipeout I've ever had.

Generally, I don't think long distance running and competing at short distances in the pool go together too well. I'm sure there are a variety of reasons. I ran track (800, 1 mile, 2 mile) and swam my last two years of high school. I found that the build for me to excel in running did not work well for my swimming at all. My fly really went down the tubes.

On the other hand, after running cross country in the fall my junior year of high school, I saw some pretty big drops in my 200 free and 500 free in the high school championship meet in February. What was interesting was I was spending less time in the water because of the running. I'm not sure, however, that I could attribute the drop to running. It may have been a mental thing. In other words, since I had learned to "hurt" for 2.5 miles of running, a 200 or 500 in the pool that once seemed intimidating now seemed much easier.

aquageek
March 25th, 2010, 02:54 PM
me too, plus you can wake up at 5:55, out the door at 6:00, have a great 45 minute run, in the shower at 6:50 out the door again at 7:05. No driving to the pool, changing in and out of a swimsuit, using public showers etc...

That's a good point, even though I only live 3 miles from my pool. Running is by far the best use of exercise time overall.

The Fortress
March 25th, 2010, 03:07 PM
On this topic, I am both completely torn and completely confused. For me, the biggest benefit of cross training is keeping my interest in swimming high by diversifying my workouts. When I focus solely on swimming, as I am now, it does get a bit boring at times. However, when I was doing a lot of cross training, my swimming clearly suffered.



How true. Swimming alone gets dull. I may learn to row this summer for some aerobic cross training. That would seem to have more benefits for swimming than running in any event.

I like slogging along on my occasional 5 mile zen runs. And, as Bob notes, I'm convinced that they are absolutely no good for my swimming so I keep them to a minimum. But I have no real desire to do track workouts, and for great starts and turns you can do plyos and squats. Now, sled pulls sound kinda fun.

aquageek
March 25th, 2010, 03:26 PM
How true. Swimming alone gets dull. I may learn to row this summer for some aerobic cross training. That would seem to have more benefits for swimming than running in any event.

Weird coincidence here. A swim friend got stitches the other day and asked for ideas on something to do for seven days since he couldn't swim. The only two things we could marginally come up with were the elliptical trainer and the rowing machine.

chaos
March 25th, 2010, 05:04 PM
youse guys don't swim enough for it to be dull.

aquageek
March 25th, 2010, 06:51 PM
youse guys don't swim enough for it to be dull.

Fish don't swim enough compared to you.

rtodd
March 25th, 2010, 09:27 PM
Why does running shread your legs so much more than say kicking?

There is nothing you can do in a pool to your legs that remotely comes cloose to track sprinting. The foot strike forces in sprinting are astronomical, the turnover rate astronomical, the range of leg motion astronomical, the stresses on tendons are near the breaking point.

The legs don't do this in swimming:

YouTube- 60m World Record

elise526
March 25th, 2010, 11:12 PM
It really is amazing to see the power in those guys that run the track sprints.

There was a guy who grew up here who became world class in the 60m, 100m, and 200m. When he was in high school, his dad trained him and used to bring him down to the YMCA pool to make him run in the shallow end of the pool. I think this was the secret to his success. It was pretty cool to be swimming and look over at this guy power running in the pool.

Here is a little bit about him:

Jason Smoots

Career Highlights: Two-time NCAA Division II 100m champion; Three-time NCAA Division II Indoor 60m champion; 2003 Pan Am Games 4x100m relay gold medalist; 2006 World Cup 4x100m relay gold medalist

Smoots continued his climb up the ranks of the nation’s finest sprinters with his fourth place finish at the 2006 USA Outdoor Championships and ending the campaign with his best ever year-end ranking (#5 in the U.S.) by Track & Field News. Also in 2006, he brought his 100m personal best down from 10.13 to 10.01 seconds, and ran the anchor leg on Team USA’ gold medal winning 4x100m relay team at the 2006 World Cup of Athletics, bringing the baton home in the new Championships record time of 37.59 seconds. One of the most highly decorated NCAA Division II sprinters in history, Smoots was named the 2003 NCAA Division II Male Athlete of the Year, and in 2002 and 2003 he was the NCAA Division II Southeast Regional Men's Indoor Track Athlete of the Year. In 2003, he became the first to win the indoor 60m NCAA Division II title three years in a row. Smoots, who earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Parks and Recreation in 2002 from North Carolina Central University, served as Grand Marshal at his alma mater’s 2002 Homecoming festivities.

http://www.usatf.org/athletes/bios/Smoots_Jason.asp

notsofast
March 26th, 2010, 05:57 AM
My worst wipeout on land has been when I lost my footing on the treadmill while talking to somebody as I was running fast on the treadmill. Tore up my knees worse than any bike wipeout I've ever had.

I once saw the claims list for an insurer that specialized in covering health clubs. Amazing how many injuries occur at the treadmill. More accidents and injuries by far than at any other spot in the gym - even the weight room.
(Pools had the largest claims - a typical drowning caused a payout of $500,000 to $1 million)
Treadmills are dangerous! Be careful around them.

aquageek
March 26th, 2010, 06:34 AM
There is nothing you can do in a pool to your legs that remotely comes cloose to track sprinting. The foot strike forces in sprinting are astronomical, the turnover rate astronomical, the range of leg motion astronomical, the stresses on tendons are near the breaking point.



OK, go kick a 100 meter all out and come back and make this claim. Air is 1/800th the density of water. I'd much rather run a 100 than kick it all out. I'd argue you have to work much hard in the water.

Runners, meh, yawn.

rtodd
March 26th, 2010, 06:23 PM
I've sprint kicked a 100. It makes my legs real tired and fill with lactic acid. I feel like I might puke. The only thing missing are stress fractures, achilies tendonitis, shin splints, pulled quads and ham strings.

Don't forget, the equivalent in running would be a 400m run. Go all out and tell me how that feels.

I'm not saying kicking is easy, just not nearly as stressful. That's why Jason Smoots runs in the pool, to go EASY on his legs so they can heal while still getting some cardio.

PS,

Tread mills don't go fast enough for sprinting. Most at the gym go to 10 MPH. They need to go to 20 MPH. Usain Bolt's beak speed is about 27 MPH.

geochuck
March 26th, 2010, 06:33 PM
Usain Bolt's beak speed is about 27 MPH.

He has a beak, I guess that is why he just flys when he runs.

elise526
March 26th, 2010, 06:46 PM
Tread mills don't go fast enough for sprinting. Most at the gym go to 10 MPH. They need to go to 20 MPH. Usain Bolt's beak speed is about 27 MPH.

Agreed about the sprinting on the treadmills. Ours goes up to 12 mph, but I don't like sprinting on the treadmill. My stride is long and gets messed up. My goal on the treadmill on the HIIT workouts is to simply get the HR up to an anaerobic zone after 1 minute and then drop it back down. Going 10 mph on the treadmill usually does it for me. I'm simply not that fast of a runner.

At the track, I'm not very speedy. I think the best 400 I ran in high school was a 62. It doesn't take much for something to be a sprint for me.

Edit: To real track runners, I think sprints must mean things less than 100m and all out. For me, anything faster than my one mile pace feels like a sprint.

joshua
March 27th, 2010, 01:51 AM
That's a good point, even though I only live 3 miles from my pool. Running is by far the best use of exercise time overall.

I beg to differ. IMHO, the best value for your time is circuit training with bw exercises and/or kbs., dbs., sledgehammer etc. See here for examples:

http://www.rosstraining.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19144&sid=3f7c2f2b8d885c7072c9cdddde33263f

In 20 minutes you are really wiped out and you can do it at home.

Still, even though it takes longer I love to swim.

bamueller
March 27th, 2010, 08:38 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I was recently speaking with a doctor about swimming (off topic) as he was tending to my injured hand. He said that cross training is important as we age. He has read several cases where swimmers get osteoporosis in later life because the weightless nature of swimming has not required their bones to remain tough.

http://www.spma.net/swimosteo.htm

It's good to cross-train. Running and telemark skiing for me. It's the doctor's orders.

joshua
March 27th, 2010, 10:45 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I was recently speaking with a doctor about swimming (off topic) as he was tending to my injured hand. He said that cross training is important as we age. He has read several cases where swimmers get osteoporosis in later life because the weightless nature of swimming has not required their bones to remain tough.

http://www.spma.net/swimosteo.htm

It's good to cross-train. Running and telemark skiing for me. It's the doctor's orders.

Agreed, but the running or telemark skiing (not sure what that is) will not improve your swimming (which was the original question).

geochuck
March 27th, 2010, 11:00 AM
How many doctors actually know anything about conditioning the body for swimming. Can he tell you how to get rid of runner's kick in swimming. Does the doctor recommend running backwards, this happens to be the way to eliminate runner's kick when you swim.

shahboz
March 27th, 2010, 10:39 PM
Agreed, but the running or telemark skiing (not sure what that is) will not improve your swimming (which was the original question).

Again, I disagree (on the running at least... not a lot of skiing in FL) Here is why...

1. If I drop weight from running (endurance running) and my speed increases in the water from having a lower profile, then I have improved my swimming.
2. If I increase the power of my starts/turns/kick, etc. from track sprinting and improve my times then I have improved my swimming.
3. If I can build my mental toughness from working through the pain a track sprint workout and then transfer this mental toughness to my swimming then I have improved my swimming.
4. If running keeps me from getting burned out in the water then it improves my swimming.

Bayou Dan
March 28th, 2010, 01:16 AM
Again, I disagree (on the running at least... not a lot of skiing in FL) Here is why...

1. If I drop weight from running (endurance running) and my speed increases in the water from having a lower profile, then I have improved my swimming.
2. If I increase the power of my starts/turns/kick, etc. from track sprinting and improve my times then I have improved my swimming.
3. If I can build my mental toughness from working through the pain a track sprint workout and then transfer this mental toughness to my swimming then I have improved my swimming.
4. If running keeps me from getting burned out in the water then it improves my swimming.

Agree completely (especially as to point 3; same benefit from weightlifting).

joshua
March 28th, 2010, 09:39 AM
Again, I disagree (on the running at least... not a lot of skiing in FL) Here is why...

1. If I drop weight from running (endurance running) and my speed increases in the water from having a lower profile, then I have improved my swimming.
2. If I increase the power of my starts/turns/kick, etc. from track sprinting and improve my times then I have improved my swimming.
3. If I can build my mental toughness from working through the pain a track sprint workout and then transfer this mental toughness to my swimming then I have improved my swimming.
4. If running keeps me from getting burned out in the water then it improves my swimming.

You have made 4 "if then" statements. These are also known as conditionals i.e., the conclusion is dependent on the hypothesis being correct.

In #1 there are two hypotheses: dropping weight from running, having a lower profile in the water and these resulting in increased speed (improved swimming).
Possible problems: running long distances causes muscular atrophy, particularly in the upper body, which may result in slower times. Running may tire the legs resulting in slower swimming. Spending time running usually means less time swimming which may result in less swimming proficiency. Running results in less ankle flexibility.

In #2 the hypothesis is that sprinting will positively effect starts/turns/kicks. I doubt that. The mechanics are totally different. I would propose that a more effective way of increasing push off speed is by doing exercises such as a push press, a jump squat etc.

#3: why not build mental toughness by swimming long distances?

#4: this statement has nothing to do specifically with running but with non-swimming activities. To go to a slight extreme you can say that playing chess will help your swimming because it prevents burnout. More seriously, you can say the same for basketball which, with all the jumping, would seem to me to have more carry over. At any rate, nothing here to logically support running specifically.

geochuck
March 28th, 2010, 09:44 AM
Very good Joshua, I did rowing, canoeing, cycling, and played basket ball.

The main word here is if and it should be maybe.

1, 2, 3, 4 may come true it also may not come true.


Again, I disagree (on the running at least... not a lot of skiing in FL) Here is why...

1. If I drop weight from running (endurance running) and my speed increases in the water from having a lower profile, then I have improved my swimming.
2. If I increase the power of my starts/turns/kick, etc. from track sprinting and improve my times then I have improved my swimming.
3. If I can build my mental toughness from working through the pain a track sprint workout and then transfer this mental toughness to my swimming then I have improved my swimming.
4. If running keeps me from getting burned out in the water then it improves my swimming.

shahboz
March 29th, 2010, 07:28 PM
You have made 4 "if then" statements. These are also known as conditionals i.e., the conclusion is dependent on the hypothesis being correct.

In #1 there are two hypotheses: dropping weight from running, having a lower profile in the water and these resulting in increased speed (improved swimming).
Possible problems: running long distances causes muscular atrophy, particularly in the upper body, which may result in slower times. Running may tire the legs resulting in slower swimming. Spending time running usually means less time swimming which may result in less swimming proficiency. Running results in less ankle flexibility.

In #2 the hypothesis is that sprinting will positively effect starts/turns/kicks. I doubt that. The mechanics are totally different. I would propose that a more effective way of increasing push off speed is by doing exercises such as a push press, a jump squat etc.

#3: why not build mental toughness by swimming long distances?

#4: this statement has nothing to do specifically with running but with non-swimming activities. To go to a slight extreme you can say that playing chess will help your swimming because it prevents burnout. More seriously, you can say the same for basketball which, with all the jumping, would seem to me to have more carry over. At any rate, nothing here to logically support running specifically.

You failed to notice that I qualified each statement with my/I and my conclusions are correct because based on my training I have increased my power, speed, lactate threshold, and core strength from running/sprinting.

You seem to really miss the point that targeted cross-training can be beneficial. Yes, I do box jumps/plyo, targeted weight training focusing on explosive movements to build strength, power and core stabilization, as well as strengthening regiment to keep my shoulders healthy, I do this in addition stretching and a little bit of gung fu. I have the benefit of having a CSCS/PT for a wife who is pretty well versed on the subject and keeps my training on target.

And honestly based on your statements about long-distance running its pretty obvious that you didn't read what I said about sprinting or being a sprinter. I don't think long distance running benefits swim sprinting but I do think that running sprints has benefits for sprinting swimmers.

Just to comment on a few of your statements:
1. A track start is a track start either on the block or in the blocks. You need explosive power for both.
2. Running sprints helps me to maintain fast twitch muscle fibers. It also builds core strength/abs which you need for strong turns. The arm pumping/cross motion when you run sprints also mirrors the cross motion when you pull and again builds ab/core strength. Ab/core strength has also been shown to take pressure off the shoulders... I could go on.
3. Busting out a set of 40ies with a warm-up does not take but 45 minutes or so. Not a lot of time in the big picture
4. I do stretch to maintain flexibility (personally Im not all that worried about may ankle flexibility... my feet bend almost backwards)
5. Running sprints helps build lactate threshold
6. Why would I want to swim distance to help with my sprinting? Totally different animal, totally different pain (mental toughness).
7. Yes, anything that will help with burnout is beneficial but the question mentioned running...

So no, running sprints is not the be-all-end cross-training exercise. Its just one component that can benefit your power in the water.

SwimStud
March 29th, 2010, 07:33 PM
Yes!

joshua
March 30th, 2010, 12:09 AM
Shahboz: First of all if it feels good for you, and you feel that sprinting is beneficial for you, then great. I however still feel that there is no real empirical evidence that it indeed helps. Just to avert another methodological discussion, there maybe no evidence that it doesn't help but according to the scientific method, the burden of proof is on those that claim it does.

I have two problems with your post:
1. You are trying to draw a general conclusion from your own personal experience. With all due respect, anecdotal evidence is always suspect due to subjectivity, does not necessarily prove anything and is a very common logical fallacy.
2. By your own admission, you are using various dry land methods at the same time. How can you know which method is really beneficial? In order to do that, you must isolate a method and use it exclusively in order to draw any conclusions.

shahboz
March 30th, 2010, 07:06 AM
One only needs to make a quick search on the Internet to find medical journal (or page through JSMs) articles on core stabilization, lactate threshold, building/maintaining of fast twitch muscle fibers, ect.... Running sprints helps with all of these things.

joshua
March 30th, 2010, 01:52 PM
One only needs to make a quick search on the Internet to find medical journal (or page through JSMs) articles on core stabilization, lactate threshold, building/maintaining of fast twitch muscle fibers, ect.... Running sprints helps with all of these things.

Agreed. As do various other activities such as kettlebell swings, Concept 2 Rower and my personal favorite - pounding the tire in my backyard with a sledgehammer. And all these activities fall into the category of GPP.

fatboy
March 30th, 2010, 06:22 PM
- pounding the tire in my backyard with a sledgehammer.

Video?

knelson
March 30th, 2010, 06:47 PM
my personal favorite - pounding the tire in my backyard with a sledgehammer.

A good workout and it prevents the neighbors from letting their dog poop in your yard! :)

debaru
March 30th, 2010, 07:23 PM
Yes!

I have to agree. At the beginning of March, I decided to up my between swim workouts by adding a running program. It's designed to get you to the point of running a 5K in 9 weeks. I'm at the end of the first month, and I have experienced a huge change in my stamina and speed while swimming.

I've only been back in the pool for just shy of 5 months and saw steady improvement during November through February, but March has been incredible! I'm pretty sure the running has had something to do with it.

Chris Stevenson
March 30th, 2010, 08:09 PM
One only needs to make a quick search on the Internet to find medical journal (or page through JSMs) articles on core stabilization, lactate threshold, building/maintaining of fast twitch muscle fibers, etc.... Running sprints helps with all of these things.

Perhaps, but this is a straw man argument. The thread's question is poorly worded. If you compare running (sprint or otherwise) with sitting on a couch, then the running will probably help your swim performance.

But let's say you are swimming 5X a week (or whatever). Would giving up (say) two of those practices and devoting them to running instead improve your swim performance? I say no, not if your swim training is well designed.

All of the things shahboz mention can be done in the water, and many of the resulting adaptations are sports-specific.

I can believe that sprint running will help explosiveness off the blocks and walls. I don't think it will help kicking much at all; I've seen far too many excellent runners who are poor kickers to believe that. I also don't believe it will help at all with pulling.

All in all, in my opinion, I think there are better options for cross-training to improve swimming (weights, rowing, and cycling all come to mind).

But generally I agree with Joshua: if you like it and have had success, go for it. Guarding against burnout is important: you'll train harder if you enjoy what you are doing. I hate running but I know many who love it above any other form of exercise.

And there are other reasons to cross-train: injuries or limited pool access, for example. It is probably better for overall fitness, too.

SwimStud
March 30th, 2010, 09:43 PM
I'm still going with

YES!

hawk43
March 31st, 2010, 09:27 AM
I agree with Chris. If you enjoy cross training and by adding it to your workout routine makes workouts more enjoyable, then do it.

However, one thing I consider is whether or not an injury caused by cross training is worth the risk versus the potential benefit.

So, early in my training season I bike and run to build strength in ways that are different from the pool (I lift/strength train throuhgout the year, backing off as I approach taper). Plus it takes some of the stress off my shoulders, because the season is long and the more dry leg work I do early in the season seems to help. So by this time in the winter season I am rarely running or biking because I do not want to pull a hamstring or twist an ankle on a curb, and risk being out of the pool during the final 2 months of the season.

So I enjoy cross training and add it to build strength and endurance, but the risk of injury while running, open road biking is not worth it to me. Just my 2 cents.

The Fortress
March 31st, 2010, 10:45 AM
I'm still going with

YES!

I'm still going with

NO!

because, as Chris notes, there are other ways of cross training that help swimming more: weights, core, cycling, rowing, yoga ... But, if it's the only cross training you do, than running is more beneficial than sitting on the couch as Aquaman notes.

I have 2 main issues with running (which I do really enjoy, miss greatly and is fantastic for remaining lean). First, it wreaks havoc with your ankles. Swimmers need loose flexy ankles to kick effectively; runners need strong inflexible ankles to run effectively and avoid injury. Hard to reconcile these two goals. And it's super easy to destroy your ankles running with sprains and whatnot. Second, running thrashes your legs. If all you want to do in the pool is swim and pull, this might not be so bad. However, my swimming is very kick based and I think many swimmers could benefit from kicking more. Not many masters seem to like to kick, but improving your kick can contribute hugely to faster swim times. But this is all difficult to achieve if you have leg fatigue from running (or plodding) and drylands. Having directly compared the two (running vs. drylands as cross training), I find it's decidedly better to spend your finite "leg energy" on drylands. My legs are much stronger from my dryland routine than they were from running (my fin addiction really helps build leg strength as well. :))

Stud, I also think you're improving just from more time in the water and focusing on technique. Plus, you've been hitting the ellipse machine and doing weights. So it's hard to isolate running as the source of, or significant factor in, your improvement.

aquageek
March 31st, 2010, 11:24 AM
I completely agree with Fort. While I believe running is overall the best exercise for the body (minus the risk of grave immediate injury) it really does very little for your swimming. The possible exception might be some run sprint training. Primarily, as Fort states, running destroys ankles. If you stop running and put that time to kicking, you'll be a convert.

While many things might compliment swimming training, nothing substitutes for the actual activity itself.

The one curious part of running is that if you take up serious running, you lose weight. This, in turn, probably helps your swimming. But, the weight loss helps, not the actual running, but it is sort of a chicken and egg conundrum.

shahboz
March 31st, 2010, 12:21 PM
@ Chris

Yep, I totally agree that I would not give up 2x days in the water but I would do it in addition or with a dry land routine... I mentioned this in an earlier post. Running sprints is ONE dry-land component that can help build explosive power for starts and turns as well as core strength. Since the question was about running, that was the main focus of my comments. I did mention other exercises like box jumps/plyo for the same thing. You do have to do a ton of core stab (with cross motion) with sprints so its a good bang for your buck if you are healthy enough to add them to your routine.

aztimm
March 31st, 2010, 03:38 PM
I'm still going with

YES!

+1

I've found that as I've added (not substituted) distance running, my distance swimming has improved substantially. Prior to adding running, anything over a 4/500 was really a struggle in swimming. But once I got comfortable running 12-15 miles (and pacing them), I've had huge improvements to my 800+ swimming.

aquageek
March 31st, 2010, 03:56 PM
+1

I've found that as I've added (not substituted) distance running, my distance swimming has improved substantially. Prior to adding running, anything over a 4/500 was really a struggle in swimming. But once I got comfortable running 12-15 miles (and pacing them), I've had huge improvements to my 800+ swimming.

My counter to this is the zillions of talented runners who can't swim worth a flip. As Ande likes to point out, to swim faster you have to swim faster.

aztimm
March 31st, 2010, 04:23 PM
My counter to this is the zillions of talented runners who can't swim worth a flip. As Ande likes to point out, to swim faster you have to swim faster.

I had already been swimming 5x a week and if anything was getting slower. Running helped me shed 20+ pounds and built up my aerobic conditioning so I could handle the longer swims.

I believe the question was, "Will crosstraining in running help my swimming?" Not, "are all fast runners fast swimmers?". For me it has been a huge success.

aquageek
March 31st, 2010, 04:52 PM
I had already been swimming 5x a week and if anything was getting slower. Running helped me shed 20+ pounds and built up my aerobic conditioning so I could handle the longer swims.

I believe the question was, "Will crosstraining in running help my swimming?" Not, "are all fast runners fast swimmers?". For me it has been a huge success.

If you had trained specifically for the 800 and longer with the same intensity as you trained for your running, your 800 would be faster than it is now. I'm not denying some cross over benefit but the same amount of time devoted to the actual sport will yield greater results. You don't see a bunch of swimmers taking up marathoning here two months before the meet in Atlanta.

Herb
March 31st, 2010, 10:40 PM
Running not only hurts my swimming, but running eventually hurts my running. I've found that I can run 2x a week for 2-3 months to build up the ability to run a 5k in 30 minutes, after which my knee and legs hurt so much I can no longer run at all for several weeks/months. No way I could even think about using a kickboard during those periods. Swimming is my recovery from running, along with the jacuzzi and ice on the knee.

I haven't run one step since completing a sprint triathlon last June. Now that I have spring fever, the pool swimming season is almost over, and my knee has been painless for several months I am almost dumb enough to try running again. Maybe just a 5k. If I could isolate just the weight loss benefit and return to swimming full time before injury my swimming could possibly improve. Biking would be a much better option for me though.

I am always craving to resurrect my hoops career too. But I also want to be able to walk. It sucks getting old. I envy those that run without being in complete agony every single step.

SwimStud
March 31st, 2010, 11:23 PM
Running helps.
Burns more fat...less fat means a tighter body and thus less drag...less drag means...oh my aunt Jemima...faster swimming. That said if you're squeezing a flabby bod into a B70 or the like...then no, maybe you don't need to run...

We're all different and for me running made a huge difference in anything over 200 yards. I can't get the same workout in the pool that I can on the treadmill. I am just not built that way.

geochuck
April 1st, 2010, 12:20 AM
Stud by that statement you mean that a skinny man is going to be a fast swimmer. Whales have lots of fat and they are pretty fast. But if they lost weight you mean they will be faster. I don't think so.

SwimStud
April 1st, 2010, 09:15 AM
Stud by that statement you mean that a skinny man is going to be a fast swimmer. Whales have lots of fat and they are pretty fast. But if they lost weight you mean they will be faster. I don't think so.

By that statement you think losing fat and losing weight are the same thing...I don't think so.
The average guy with flabby fat all over himself, who is not a previous age grouper, college jock, or ex olympian, or in fact just naturally damn talented at swimming, is going to find flab a hindrance. Whales have fat but it's squeezed into a Mother Nature B70 with build in aqua dynamics. Old or not so old, fat guys that have a long pedigree of swimming are not the average flabby guy.
Or is this forum just for ex age groupers, NCAA champs and Ex Olympians?
I'm going to go away from this forum again until the elitist crap stops.

Anyway Running helps me.

aquageek
April 1st, 2010, 09:22 AM
I have no idea what the discussion about running and swimming has to do with elitism, no one has even brought up the elite swimmers.

SwimStud
April 1st, 2010, 09:30 AM
I have no idea what the discussion about running and swimming has to do with elitism, no one has even brought up the elite swimmers.
Not directly Geek, no. However, when someone (average) states that something works for them...there's a lot of backlash from folks who either: have done better in swimming with a full life of participation, or from the white, fluffy, baaa-ing masses that can't look at anything other than the top swimmers.

Absolutely there are lessons to learn from the top placed group...but sometimes the other guy who is as fat, skinny, asthmatic, bronchial, gluten intolerant, one legged, blind, deaf, suffering from MS as someone else reading it, may have some insight that relates more.
Maybe land based cardio will do them more aerobic good than 20 x 100 on a 1:40 interval if they cannot hold the intensity.

That and a silly whale analogy...:cane:

...now I am leaving before Carlos Fernandez comes back on....

That Guy
April 1st, 2010, 10:08 AM
Not directly Geek, no. However, when someone (average) states that something works for them...there's a lot of backlash from folks who either: have done better in swimming with a full life of participation, or from the white, fluffy, baaa-ing masses that can't look at anything other than the top swimmers.

Absolutely there are lessons to learn from the top placed group...but sometimes the other guy who is as fat, skinny, asthmatic, bronchial, gluten intolerant, one legged, blind, deaf, suffering from MS as someone else reading it, may have some insight that relates more.
Maybe land based cardio will do them more aerobic good than 20 x 100 on a 1:40 interval if they cannot hold the intensity.

That and a silly whale analogy...:cane:

...now I am leaving before Carlos Fernandez comes back on....

I can't decide if that was an April Fool's post or not.

Stevepowell
April 1st, 2010, 10:09 AM
Well the converse isn't true: I've been swimming for a year and a half now and I can't run (trot) more than a few hundred yards. But my swimming has gotten faster and I can swim longer that when I started.

Although.... from working on kicking my bird legs are showing some slight sign of
muscle.


Re; George's post, by my read he says you can go fast even if heavy.

The Fortress
April 1st, 2010, 10:17 AM
Not directly Geek, no. However, when someone (average) states that something works for them...there's a lot of backlash from folks who either: have done better in swimming with a full life of participation, or from the white, fluffy, baaa-ing masses that can't look at anything other than the top swimmers.

Absolutely there are lessons to learn from the top placed group...but sometimes the other guy who is as fat, skinny, asthmatic, bronchial, gluten intolerant, one legged, blind, deaf, suffering from MS as someone else reading it, may have some insight that relates more.
Maybe land based cardio will do them more aerobic good than 20 x 100 on a 1:40 interval if they cannot hold the intensity.

That and a silly whale analogy...:cane:

...now I am leaving before Carlos Fernandez comes back on....

I get backlash all the time.

I have gotten great gluten free advice from PMs and on my blog and listen to it.

I think running is the best for burning off unwanted fat.

I don't want fat and I don't want to look like a whale.

Nor do I want to do 20 x 100 @ 1:40.

Land based training is very individual. Vlad Pleshenko runs 5 miles a day and think it helps; if I did that, I'd break down right away. Everyone has to find the right balance.

And there are loads of newbie postings on this forum.

Now, if I write than I've done 20 x 100 and no land based work on my blog, you'll know that's April Fools! I agree that CF and his "I won't listen to anyone who isn't FINA Top 5" attitude is offensive.

aquageek
April 1st, 2010, 10:34 AM
This is an interesting coversation. What seems to jump out from the proponents of running is that they lose weight and their swimming improves. I contend the weight loss is more valuable than the running. There is absolutely nothing about running specifically that improves swimming, zip, zero, nada. The same amount of time dedicated to swimming training will yield better results. If you want proof, stop swimming for 4 months and run only and then see how your swimming is. This isn't to say running isn't enjoyable.

The elitist point is a good one, however. Swimming at a club with a Team Elite (Olympic hopefuls, Olympians and pro swimmers) I have adopted the point of view that they tend to know what they are doing and talking about. So, why not adopt what I can of theirs versus doing something else less efficient for the same amount of time? They are elite for a reason, learn from the best.

I agree with Fort, do what you want and what makes your workouts most enjoyable.

Lump
April 1st, 2010, 10:43 AM
I think running is the best for burning off unwanted fat.

I don't want fat and I don't want to look like a whale.



:agree: This is the ONLY reason I've added running to my workouts.

SwimStud
April 1st, 2010, 11:13 AM
OK some of these responses echo exactly my point. You have do do what works for you!
I'd love to do Phelps' workouts and training regime but I can't. I have time, and physical limitations and then a lack of previous experience tells me I will be on the ortho's table with shoulder injuries in no time.

Adopting training ethics and habits of top swimmers absolutely. Only swimming 50% of what they do and using dry-land to work the rest for your health...even more so.

My thought: Top swimmers with the golden 12-21 age period development years can do more than me, who from 8-12 swam...coming back at 37. I am fortunate, I had good coaching as a kid, I had some ability in BR, I had the basics, I had an above average aerobic capacity, and still had to re-wire myself. That said I don't have all the development years that the top swimmers had...in general. I'm not getting :22 on a 50 :24 maybe...with a lot of work. Even so running won't impact a 50 at least aerobically.

In my youth I danced, I ran, I lifted, I did martial arts, I played badminton, so maybe my "golden development" is in my legs...hence I can go for hours on land and get more for my aerobic base there. Sure it won't lead to a better stroke but my view is that my stroke holds together better for longer now...and you don't have to believe me, but it jumped up after doing cardio.

Other points, Tim and I have more in common on sporting terms than me and Chris Stevenson for example. I can learn much from Chris' blog about ideas and behaviors, but I can't swim like him. Tim and I can read our blogs and see what is working for each other and think "Hmm he's a pretty good approximation of me...maybe I should try that...or see what he did to improve."

Lastly, yeah there are plenty of older, fatter swimmers that can beat me...it isn't about size...it's about "tone."
I am not into suits but having tried it, I know it makes a compressed, flab-wobble free body shape. I'm trying to get as close to that in my own skin as possible.

From that POV, running helps swimming. Not the technical stroke work or feel, but the ability to maximise those elements which I have right now--while I still train and work on them.

joshua
April 1st, 2010, 11:36 AM
This is my idea of an effective all-around conditioning circuit. Now remember guys, look at the exercises:bump:....

YouTube- Fitness - Killer 550 Rep Workout

aquageek
April 1st, 2010, 11:41 AM
Good post, Stud!

geochuck
April 1st, 2010, 01:51 PM
What is good for one is not necessarily good for another.

I was a very high floater even when I was younger. I did a lot of cross training. I ran, cycled, rowed, paddled, lifted weights, land drills that were proposed by the swim coach at Yale University, and lots of swimming.

As I got older my knees gave me trouble so cut out the running. Then after I switched to long distance swimming I eliminated everthing else except the land drills that Kipuith disigned and massive amounts of paced swimming, scattered in with sprint swim workouts. The sprint workouts were timed so I could swim fast when needed. I would throw in 25s, 50s and 100s as fast as I had ever competed in when I was a sprinter. I would start my training weighing in as high as 255lbs and when ready to swim my first race at about 225lbs. By the end of a distance swimming season I would weigh in at about 215. One year I ended up weighing 187, I looked like a skeliton with muscles. I had to eat very large meals to keep my weight up. During the marathon swim season.

Lump
April 1st, 2010, 02:05 PM
This is my idea of an effective all-around conditioning circuit. Now remember guys, look at the exercises:bump:....

YouTube- Fitness - Killer 550 Rep Workout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw_ZR86hNQI)

Thank you for that, I think I need to close my office door now....