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Warren
November 1st, 2006, 10:19 AM
I can't do an effective dolpin kick off of my turns. I usually do freestyle kick off my freestyle and back turns. But for 50 fly its crutial. I only do 2 or 3 kicks so that I dont slow myself down. Thats only about 5 meters. I always get beat on the turns because I am a bad under water swimmer. do you have any tips on dolphin kicking?

Jeff Commings
November 1st, 2006, 10:24 AM
Don't do dolphin kick if you can't do it. Just because lots of people are doing it doesn't mean you have to.

Jason Lezak never does dolphin kicks on his freestyle races, yet he manages to still remain the fastest 100 freestyler in the USA.

scyfreestyler
November 1st, 2006, 12:03 PM
I try to incorporate some off the wall dolphins in my practices in hopes that someday I will have the ability to use them as a weapon in a race.

Perhaps you should try swimming the race in practice with the dolphin kicks and without. Whichever one is faster would be how I swam the race in a meet. However, keep working on the dolphins in practice and you will surely improve over time.

The Fortress
November 1st, 2006, 12:38 PM
The only way to be a better underwater swimmer is to spend more time underwater. I personally like it underwater myself, so I spend a lot of time SDK-ing on my side, back and stomach. Try it with fins for awhile if that helps you get the hang of it. I always do 10 x 25 under water dolphin kick with fins almost every practice (or without fins and do easy free). But Jeff is right, not everyone likes or needs to do it. But I think it is faster...

Warren
November 1st, 2006, 12:39 PM
I just want to be able to do a fast 10 yards underwater off the turn in the 50 fly so that I can conserve some energy for the end while still going fast.

I always do freestyle kick for free and I dont plan on changing that.

geochuck
November 1st, 2006, 12:44 PM
I have for the last while been doing a few of dolphin kicks off the wall when I swim crawl. If I ever race again I will sure use them.

chlorini
November 1st, 2006, 12:54 PM
Hi Warren,

I agree that practicing your SDK with fins may be helpful. Vertical dolphin kicking can help, too. This may seem silly, but you may also want to check your streamline when you dolphin kick. Sometimes people with great free kick streamlines break them with dolphin kick. Finally, you may want to work on making sure that you connect your kicks fluidly rather than taking really separated giant kicks (if that makes any sense). I hope something here helps a little! Good luck!

ande
November 1st, 2006, 12:58 PM
Test your streamline dolphin kick (SDK) times for several fast 15 meter efforts then

Test your streamline flutter kick (SFK) times for several fast 15 meter efforts
do a few from a dive
do a few from a push

Then 3 times a week work on your streamline dolphin kick
do 3 or 4 very fast 15 meter kicks with plenty of rest

then retest every 2 or 3 weeks

then 2 or 3 months from now retest
compare your times from the first time,
what you want to find out is if
1) you responded to training and
2) which streamlined kicking style is faster

I don't know if you fall into the
1) I don't dolphin kick well, but I never trained dolphin kicking or
2) I don't dolphin kick well, I trained to improve my dolphin kick and I still don't dolphin kick well

ande




I can't do an effective dolpin kick off of my turns. I usually do freestyle kick off my freestyle and back turns. But for 50 fly its crutial. I only do 2 or 3 kicks so that I dont slow myself down. Thats only about 5 meters. I always get beat on the turns because I am a bad under water swimmer. do you have any tips on dolphin kicking?

Jeff Commings
November 1st, 2006, 03:17 PM
...keep working on the dolphins in practice and you will surely improve over time.

Tell that to my ankles.

Rob Copeland
November 2nd, 2006, 07:58 AM
Warren,

If you have a bad underwater dolphin you should work to improve it, however you should also focus on the other aspects of the turn.

Jeff nailed it when he said Jason Lezak never does dolphin kicks on his freestyle races, yet he manages to still remain the fastest 100 freestyler in the USA. Jason gets in and our quickly, he has a phenomenal push off the wall, he has a great streamline, and he has an excellent transition from breakout to stroke.

If you can look at Fred Bousquet’s 2005 NCAA 50 free (18.74). No dolphins, just a great turn (power and streamline) and an amazing transition to stroke.

Work the streamline, work the push work the transition, and if you want to work the dolphin (which every flyer should); in addition to the suggestions above, I’d suggest the following drill:
Fast vertical fly kicking – cross your arms over your chest, and kick 5X20 seconds on a minute with 2 goals, first is to generate the kick form the torso (not the hips) and second to maintain a high tempo (60+ kicks in the 20 seconds).

Warren
November 2nd, 2006, 07:32 PM
While we are on the topic of underwater swimming, today I did 75 meters underwater without taking a breath.

Rob Copeland
November 3rd, 2006, 01:10 PM
For a self proclaimed bad under water swimmer, 75M is a long way.

And on the topic of hypoxic swimming, recently a number of sports medicine specialists have strongly cautioned against extended breath hold swimming. They are reporting that their studies show no discernible benefit and the oxygen deprivation occurs mainly in the brain and not the muscles.

scyfreestyler
November 3rd, 2006, 05:46 PM
While we are on the topic of underwater swimming, today I did 75 meters underwater without taking a breath.


Huh? How do you go from being a poor underwater swimmer to accomplishing a feat such as this within a few days? Was this done with breast kick or fly?

Muppet
November 7th, 2006, 12:22 AM
This sounds a little strange but if you want to improve your dolphin kick, I recommend going to an aquarium or get a video on Dolphins. Every so often, I will hit a wall (the hypothetical one where I seemingly can't get much faster) in my fly, and will take a trip to the National Aquarium in Baltimore. There they have a huge tank for the dolphins with a huge sub-level window where you can watch them from ~15 feet under the surface.

Now granted these animals are made for swimming and dolphin kick comes pretty naturally to them, but being able to watch the kick from under water is truly amazing. Watch their tails as they move around. Watch the body undulations.

Humans are incredibly ineffecient swimmers, but here are a few notes I took from my visit to the Aquarium Summer '05 (they had a really cute 6mo old dolphin at the time!)

1 - Steamline: Dolphins were built for swimming; I was not. Stay tight and long on streamline.

2 - Body: They move their entire body to kick. A full cycle has the body in a wave motion from nose to tail. Note most noticable body movement in middle. KICK FROM THE HIPS.

3 - Tail: Tail doesn't move all that much on downward force when kicking. Forward movement probably generated mostly by the downward force coming from the hip movement. KICK FROM HIPS. small, but powerful kicks


With the help of a good fly coach - he totally advocated the short/powerful kicks - and 3 months in a cast where all I did was Kick, I had PBs in both my fly events (50,100) at SCY Nats.

May sound kinda lame, but why not learn from the best!:dedhorse:

Rob Copeland
November 7th, 2006, 08:50 AM
Dolphins were built for swimming!?!? It’s a good thing, since they usually are terrible at the bike and run in triathlons.

Also dolphins aren’t very good at front quadrant pulling and they frequently break the 15 Meter rule.

On the other hand, I admit, I can watch the dolphins, whales and fish for hours admiring there grace, flowing rhythm and power in the water. They seem so at home swimming…

And while watching dolphins can provide beautiful mental imagery, I think Jeff was spot on when he said “With the help of a good fly coach…”

geochuck
November 7th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Rob did you see the news about the dolphin that was caught in Japan it had fins near the back the then went on to say they had maybe walked on land.

Rob Copeland
November 7th, 2006, 09:23 AM
No I didn’t see the article.. However I have seen walking catfish.

So maybe with some proper cross training (Re. cross training thread) dolphins could soon be beating us humans on land as well as in the water.

geochuck
November 7th, 2006, 09:26 AM
Just found the storey http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2629683

geochuck
November 7th, 2006, 09:34 AM
The Video is here http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/?channel=Science+Nature&clipid=91093

I saw a pictue of cantwaite4bike riding a bike in a bike race so I think they can swim, bike and run

Warren
November 7th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Huh? How do you go from being a poor underwater swimmer to accomplishing a feat such as this within a few days? Was this done with breast kick or fly?

I was doing kitagima pull outs.

poolraat
November 7th, 2006, 12:47 PM
I was doing kitagima pull outs.
Educate me. As a self coached swimmer I'm not familiar with that term.

LindsayNB
November 7th, 2006, 12:52 PM
3 - Tail: Tail doesn't move all that much on downward force when kicking. Forward movement probably generated mostly by the downward force coming from the hip movement.

Can you elaborate on how you reached that conclusion? I would think the large surface area of the tail would allow a large force to be generated with relatively little slip, hence the small tail movement. Certainly humans wearing fins can generate more forward movement with less foot movement than without fins. I am fairly confident that muscular effort in dolphins would extend right to the base of the tail, not stop at "hip"/mid-body level.

Warren
November 7th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Educate me. As a self coached swimmer I'm not familiar with that term.

kitajima is a swimmer from japan who used an illegal underwater pullout to beat brenden hansen in athens. He did a butterfly kick right after his armpull. I just did this repeativly when I did 3 laps underwater.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ODJsp8NJQ

geochuck
November 7th, 2006, 07:59 PM
Is his kick now illegal???

Warren
November 7th, 2006, 10:41 PM
Is his kick now illegal???

Yeah, fina legalized it because of him.

geochuck
November 7th, 2006, 10:47 PM
It is one of the great improvements to the breaststroke rules. It was very controversial at the time it happened and I thought it was a natural movement and legal.

Warren
November 8th, 2006, 01:38 AM
It is one of the great improvements to the breaststroke rules. It was very controversial at the time it happened and I thought it was a natural movement and legal.

It was a purposly exargerated natural movement. The body natualy undulateds during the arm pull but kitajima exargerated it to gain an advantage. He also sliped a dolphin kick in right after the start before he even started his pullout. Kitijima should have been disqualified. Since it is tough to see underwater clearly for the deck, it was not caught by the official. And they cant used the video replay to dq people. I believe that they need to add a rule to allow officials to use replay to dq swimmers. Its a shame kitajima got away with that.

poolraat
November 8th, 2006, 11:01 AM
Since it is tough to see underwater clearly for the deck, it was not caught by the official. And they cant used the video replay to dq people. I believe that they need to add a rule to allow officials to use replay to dq swimmers.

Because of glare and surface turbulance, it is very difficult to see clearly underwater. As an official I know, because I have missed calls for that reason and have observed missed calls by other officials. Maybe at national and international competitions video would work but I'm not sure I would like it even then.

Muppet
November 9th, 2006, 12:37 AM
Can you elaborate on how you reached that conclusion? I would think the large surface area of the tail would allow a large force to be generated with relatively little slip, hence the small tail movement. Certainly humans wearing fins can generate more forward movement with less foot movement than without fins. I am fairly confident that muscular effort in dolphins would extend right to the base of the tail, not stop at "hip"/mid-body level.

You pretty much have the concept down. If the dolphin was just freeswimming straight across its tank in a line, I noticed that the tail itself would hardly move downward. Most of the movement was concentrated in its more rear mid-section, and aside from a slight downward motion, the flukes pretty much stayed put. Now when they want to speed up, thats when the tail gets bent toward its underside.

Its a little hard to explain - perhaps a field trip is due!

For the science geeks, check out:
http://biomechanics.bio.uci.edu/_html/nh_biomech/dolphin_spring/dolphin.htm

geochuck
November 9th, 2006, 12:54 AM
Dolphin kjck videos here
http://www.oceanfootage.com/stockfootage/Spotted_Dolphin///?DVfSESSCKIE=3f2af4e06e55091069122d82d66e70c6f343a 389

aquaFeisty
November 9th, 2006, 07:31 AM
I have a related question: anyone have any tips on transitioning from a dolphin kick into a free kick? My hubby has said that I can 'stall myself out' going from dolphin kick into flutter, particularly on starts. My underwater dolphin is lots faster than my underwater flutter, so I'd like to use it. I tend to either wuss out or just forget to use it in short races (50 and 100). Any ideas?

quicksilver
November 9th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Dolphin kjck videos here
http://www.oceanfootage.com/stockfootage/Spotted_Dolphin///?DVfSESSCKIE=3f2af4e06e55091069122d82d66e70c6f343a 389


George,

Ever thought about comedy? :yawn:

And in response to the dolphin kick question...The undulation is quick and tight. Fast kicks...with not too much up and down action. When done well...you can actually hear the 'swishing' of water coming from your toes.


They aren't always used in the 50 free. (In my opinion ...it's better to come off the wall with flutter kicks of fury.... for sprint freestyle.)

But for back and fly...it's well worth the time to learn how to do it right. Three to four kicks minimum off each wall can provide a very nice reduction in time.

geochuck
November 9th, 2006, 10:28 AM
Quicksilver the videos were actually a response to the Lindsay - Muppet talk about dolphins swimming.

Was not trying to be funny or maybe I was???

Muppet
November 9th, 2006, 10:31 AM
Thanks George - I was looking for something like that last night.

quicksilver
November 9th, 2006, 12:20 PM
Quicksilver the videos were actually a response to the Lindsay - Muppet talk about dolphins swimming.




Doh...I jumped the gun...and skipped the post by Muppet.

Great videos. and.... I do find your comments amusing. Sense of humor is very important.

The Fortress
November 9th, 2006, 12:23 PM
[quote=quicksilver;67360]They aren't always used in the 50 free. (In my opinion ...it's better to come off the wall with flutter kicks of fury.... for sprint freestyle.)

Oh, oh. :eek: I've been dolphin kicking in my 50 free off the turn. I am going to try this. Maybe I haven't hit my speed cap in this event yet.

Muppet
November 9th, 2006, 10:39 PM
Carrie, I hear you about the "stalling out" with the fly-to-free kick transition after the start. I spent a lot of last season working on the dolphin kick off the wall for the purpose of a 500 free, so I had plenty of work on this transition!

The stalling out has a lot to do with timing. For a 50/100, I tend to do two quick dolphin kicks off a turn, and then break out into the flutter. I have found that less stalling occurs when, at the end of the 2nd downward dolphin, I break out IMMEDIATELY into really strong flutter kick. I noticed that any delay in that second dolphin and the start of the flutter would cause my feet to rise, my body position to get all screwed up (like it almost wants to do one more kick), and stall.

For a workout of mostly turns, try working on this in a short pool. Also it is important to practice this when you're tired, so that when you get to that 75 turn (or 175 turn, or 475 turn) of your race, you have been through the exhausted version of these turns and can keep your momentum and form.

To Leslie's comment about bailing out on the fly kick, go for it, if you don't mind your secret nemesis taking advantage of you. ;-P

The Fortress
November 9th, 2006, 10:56 PM
Ha ha ha, Muppet.

I will not be swimming the 50 free so my secret nemesis can have it all to herself. :D I know that's her favorite event. And I would like to face her mano-a-mano, but I just swam the thing 2 weeks ago and I will be very busy doing other important stuff that Saturday. Like the 50 back -- which she never dares to swim. :rofl: She must not have hyperextended elbows....

I didn't say I would entirely "bail" on the dolphin kicks on my 50 free. I thought I might just try Quicksilver's advice out sometime. But that nice "transition" tip you just shared might be an even better solution.

aquaFeisty
November 10th, 2006, 07:47 AM
Muppet, Thank you! I will definitely work on immediately starting the flutters after a down beat. I think I am letting my body drift back up, just like you said, after that last dolphin and that might be causing some of the stalling. Very good point about practicing turns when pooped. Actually, for me it's important to practice kicking when pooped (like not letting my legs drift behind me when I get tired). I had a 100 free one time where I actually fell off the 3rd wall, there was just nothing left in my legs to push with!

Quicksilver, I had to chuckle at your description of "flutter kicks of fury". I certainly kick furiously off the wall and start in my 50 free, but my furiously fast flutterkicks don't exactly move me anywhere. :)

quicksilver
November 10th, 2006, 10:29 AM
I've been "masters swimming" for almost five years now. The experimentation with the dolphin kick on sprint free just doesn't work for me. ( I was a sprinter and a backstroker) Having seen vidoes of the world class sprint swimmers in action...it's safe to say that the majority of them come off the wall with "flutter kicks of fury".

Perhaps some take one major down beat (dolphin style)...and then they switch over flutter mode. The 8 beat kick in sprint swimming sets up the tempo for the arms. And the dolphin kick on a 50 or 100 throws that off for me.

On the other hand...my backstroke times are improving to within several seconds of what I could do in college. Dolphin kicking a third of the pool on my back has changed this stroke for me entirely.

I swim mostly all backstroke in workouts and love watching all the freestyle strokes the swimmer in the adjacent lane is taking.... whilst I wiggle down the pool...sometimes at an even faster pace.

The Fortress
November 10th, 2006, 10:38 AM
Quicksilver:

Now I like my SDKs on back too, but I'm not getting 1/3 down the pool after my turns (but my start can somtimes rock). How deep do you go on your turns to get 1/3 down the pool? Do you do this on a 50 back too?

I think my turns on the 50 free are pretty mediocre and I've been doing (I think) 2 dolphin kicks. So I am going to experiment with this.

P.S. I do a lot of backstroke on those free sets too. I hope you don't have to deal with any overbearing parents today.

quicksilver
November 10th, 2006, 11:07 AM
I get a bit of a downward arc on my push off...as if I'm pointing down to the bottom...but not quite.
Then I do the rumba kick (it's starts from the hips :yawn:)...and make the ascent back to the surface. Four kicks minimum when I'm tired...but six or so... when feeling fresh.

The biggest discipline is in getting a nice gulp of air before the flip turn...and then holding it for a slow exhale while staying under. The conditioning for staying under takes a while...and is painful at first...but it will happen over time.

I managed to do 10 x100's on a 1:15 interval (backstroke) which has been a bit of a breakthrough for me.... being in my mid-forties. (Two years ago I wouldn't have been able to do this set freestyle.) A strong dolphin kick is just as fast...if not faster than freestyle. And I would have to say that Ryan Lochte's 44 second 100 back is a good testament to this. If they gave hime more than 15 meters to kick ...he'd probably be 40 or 41.

(And the parents have been behaving by the way :cool:. Nasdaq is over 12,000 these days.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG7KToXmNTU
This is how it's done...(just hit the play tab) Notice how he goes deep ...an then comes back up.

The Fortress
November 10th, 2006, 11:18 AM
Quicksilver:

Now that darn clip finished before I could count how many kicks Piersol actually did. But I think I need a bit more downward arc on my turns. I do OK on the air gulps. I can stay under. But I can't make the intervals on that set you did ...unless I have my fins on. Sometimes I do put them on solely for the purpose and pleasure of swimming underwater on my back.

quicksilver
November 10th, 2006, 11:34 AM
...unless I have my fins on. Sometimes I do put them on solely for the purpose and pleasure of swimming underwater on my back.


Fin kicking is a great way to put "memory" into your muscles for dolphin kicking.

And Piersol seems do something like eight or nine kicks minimum.

poolraat
November 10th, 2006, 11:53 AM
The biggest discipline is in getting a nice gulp of air before the flip turn...and then holding it for a slow exhale while staying under. The conditioning for staying under takes a while...and is painful at first...but it will happen over time.

What do you do to control the exhale? I find that by the time I push off and take 2-3 kicks I am in desparate need for air, having expelled most of it through the turn.

quicksilver
November 10th, 2006, 12:58 PM
What do you do to control the exhale? I find that by the time I push off and take 2-3 kicks I am in desparate need for air, having expelled most of it through the turn.

Don't exhale too much too soon. Some people don't like water going up their nose....so they exhale through thier nostrils to prevent this from happening.

Use control...and the urge to breath will not feel so alarming. It takes time.

poolraat
November 10th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Don't exhale too much too soon. Some people don't like water going up their nose....so they exhale through thier nostrils to prevent this from happening.

I do exhale through my nose. But seem to exhale more quickly while doing the backstroke pullout. The other strokes, I can get out to around 10 yards before wanting/needing air but with backstroke it seems that I'm out of air sooner and am surfacing just past the flags. I tried the "cover the nostrils with the lip" thing to slow down the exhale...My lips don't reach that far.

Warren
November 10th, 2006, 02:14 PM
dolpin kicking off the start for 50 is the way to go. almost everyone in athens took 2 or 3 dolphin kicks off the start.

The Fortress
November 10th, 2006, 02:22 PM
Warren: Off the start? Weren't they taking a lot more off the start to get their 15 meters or so in? I think I usually try for 7-8.

Poolrat: I think I am holding my breath when I flip and not starting the gradual exhale until I'm on my back and starting to do the "rumba kick." This may be wrong though.

Warren
November 10th, 2006, 02:52 PM
Warren: Off the start? Weren't they taking a lot more off the start to get their 15 meters or so in? I think I usually try for 7-8.

Poolrat: I think I am holding my breath when I flip and not starting the gradual exhale until I'm on my back and starting to do the "rumba kick." This may be wrong though.

for the 50? no, On the video alot of people take 2. no I tried to find the video but I couldn't, I got it on my computer at home but im at college.

Ian croker is the only person I'v seen go 15 meters off the start and off the turn. its incredible to watch him do 50 yard free becasue while he is underwater, he is swimming faster than the people under water. ian croker is the best under water swimmer in the world.
http://www.texas-trio.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=224&pos=4

The Fortress
November 10th, 2006, 03:10 PM
Hmmmm... I think I'm talking about backstroke and you're talking about Crocker, who does not do the backstroke

Warren
November 10th, 2006, 04:33 PM
yeah I was talking about 50 free, sorry

Muppet
November 10th, 2006, 11:06 PM
What do you do to control the exhale? I find that by the time I push off and take 2-3 kicks I am in desparate need for air, having expelled most of it through the turn.

This is going to hurt and be uncomfortable, but do a few flip turns without exhaling at all. Let that water come up your nose if it has to. Get a feel for exactly at what point in the flip the water starts going up your nose. Get a feel for exactly at what point after the flip water stops going up your nose.

Then do a few turns, holding your breath in until just before the start point you were just researching. Exhale out your nose SLOWLY until you reach the stop point.

This way, you're only exhaling when you have to, thereby keeping air for your full 15 yards of dolphin kick. Note, this may not work so good in backstroke. Also you don't need the world's biggest gulp of air. That usually tends to expand your lungs so much it hurts and you just want to exhale it all anyways, thus defeating the purpose.

The whole water up your nose on a turn thing just takes a lot of practice (and patience).