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KaizenSwimmer
November 24th, 2006, 10:30 AM
Here's a link to the promised upload of my ButterFrog stroke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW_d3XpXltY
The quality on youtube is kind of grainy. Perhaps there's a better compression technology than the one we used, but it's clear enough to see the major elements.

For a funny contrast do a search for HQ Butterfrog.

some_girl
November 24th, 2006, 11:47 AM
Thanks for posting this (though it does confirm my aesthetic suspicions). How fast is the stroke, exactly? It looks terribly awkward, with that breastroke caesura thing going on. Also, what is your theory on why you think it feels better? It seems like it would be so much harder to get your arms out without using your feet.

poolraat
November 24th, 2006, 12:44 PM
Terry,
It's interesting to watch. Just out of curiosity, what is the difference in speed compared to regular fly?

For an interesting article on the evolution of the fly, check the article in the May/June 2005 "Splash" magazine.

SolarEnergy
November 24th, 2006, 02:19 PM
Beatifull. Nice execution of the stroke. Well done !

KaizenSwimmer
November 24th, 2006, 02:53 PM
Just out of curiosity, what is the difference in speed compared to regular fly?

I take the same number of strokes doing Butterfrog as I do with regular fly, but my SR must be higher, because I swim 3 to 4 seconds faster per 50 with BFR than BFL.

What I was struck by the first time I saw the underwater video was how far I travel in the extended position. That's what I'm aiming for - i.e. to get the same sort of glide-feeling in Fly that I get in Breast. To maximize that I concentrate on synchronizing the kick with my landing.

You might wonder how I can glide so far and still have a higher SR than in BFL. Well the reason it took me so long to overcome Butterstruggle is I could never get my hips to lift. So I had to compensate by sinking my chest after landing -- very patiently. I'd keep sinking until I felt that it had lifted my hips/legs to the surface.

Apparently the forward travel I get in BFR occurs faster than the sinking in BFL. And better yet, it's forward movement rather than down. Result - significantly more speed.

As far as the aesthetics of it goes, Somegirl, I think it looks kinda cool - particularly when viewed from underwater.

KaizenSwimmer
November 24th, 2006, 02:56 PM
It seems like it would be so much harder to get your arms out without using your feet.

It is marginally more difficult, but the compensation of going faster and greater ease in other aspects overcomes that. And I'll keep working to figure out how to improve that as well.

LindsayNB
November 24th, 2006, 03:57 PM
Thanks for posting that Terry!
Would it be fair to observe that it looks much more like breast stroke with an over the water recovery than butterfly with a whip kick? It seemed to me that there was essentially no undulation which seems to me to be the core of butterfly. Are you faster even in the shorter distances (50fly, 100IM) or just for distance fly? I can't imagine I could swim butterfrog faster at sprint speed, but my 200 is pretty slow so... Unfortunately, I suspect that my own butterfrog probably looked more like the HQ Butterfrog.:eek:
One problem I had was if I got my hips up high my feet came out of the water. But my real problem is my body wanted to do two kicks.
I am tempted to try to figure this out, just as something new and because I like anything kind of querky, but I fear that it will interfere with my ongoing attempt at learning to do decent regular fly.
Anyway, thanks again!

Now, Mr. Cruise, where's your video?

islandsox
November 24th, 2006, 05:01 PM
Wow, I have never seen anything quite like this, but if you think it feels better for you, then enjoy it. But I certainly hope you don't teach this to anyone just starting to learn butterfly; you know, the young ones who with practice can master fly with dolphin kick. It reminds me of a person who swims fly using only one dolphin kick instead of two; the sinking thing, and you are becoming rather vertical when you start the stroke all over again. The undulation is missing from the equation and it, at least in the video, looks like an awful lot of work; more than fly with dolphin.

But I thank you for sharing this with us all and it goes to show that there is more than just one way to swim!!! Keep us posted on your progress.

Donna

quicksilver
November 24th, 2006, 05:58 PM
Very interesting.

Our age groupers simply go with a ~one arm fly~ when the "wheels starting falling off the bus". (I'm not sure this would be the answer to a faltering fly...but it's pretty cool.)


Out of curiosity...Would the officials allow more than two dolphins kicks per arm cycle for masters swimmers? In my humble opinion...four or more dolphin kicks with a big stroke might fare better than the leap and crash of butterfrog style swimming.

You do have a very clean line on the glide phase though. ;)

Peter Cruise
November 24th, 2006, 07:47 PM
No video for me, just purple prose. When I do it (which isn't all that often), I can go faster for a 50 with my normal spastic dolphin kick, but any greater distance, no. Like Terry, I go for exploiting the streamline after my breastroke kick; I throw a little dolphin kick in to initiate the whole process each stroke, which keeps the legs from sinking too deep.

Allen Stark
November 24th, 2006, 07:59 PM
My Fly is faster than my butterfrog up to about 75 yd after that butterfrog is much faster for me.I have seen Ginger Pierson break World Records with butterfrog. I went 3:04 in the 200 Fly(55-59) with butterfrog at Worlds. Terry, I think you could go a little faster if you got in a more streamlined position in the arms forward position,added a slight dolphin kick right after the whip kick and then "ride the glide." This will greatly increase your DPS without appreciable slowing down. At least this is what works for me.

some_girl
November 24th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Terry, I think you could go a little faster if you . . . added a slight dolphin kick

Ah, look how quickly they return to the true kick of kings!

As to the aesthetics, Terry, I think I am just not the correct audience--I find pretty much everything about breaststroke ugly and overall, like Lindsay pointed out, it looks more like breastroke than fly.

Regarding speed, what are the actual numbers?

The Fortress
November 24th, 2006, 10:18 PM
When I do it (which isn't all that often), I can go faster for a 50 with my normal spastic dolphin kick, but any greater distance, no.


Now are you sure there's really any need to go more than a 50 fly?!?! Maybe a 100? If we're breaking down, shouldn't we ... just stop?

I can't do butterfrog at all, and I did try. My theory is that I'm not a breaststroker and have an atrocious breaststroke kick. I'm way faster with the dolphin. Which also confirms what Some Girl and Lindsay said -- butterfrog really is just disguised breaststroke!! Especially if you are all admittedly "riding the glide." That's breaststroke-speak. That's why Peter and Allen are doing it!

Now, I have read that real frogs don't use their arms much, only their kick. This likewise confirms that butterfrog is another form of breaststroke.

So I am one middle age "Boomer" sticking to the dolphin kick. When I break down, which I seem prone to, I'll either stop or put on fins instead. :rofl:

I will give butterfrog big points in the quirky department though. And quirky is good, makes things interesting. Thanks for the video Terry.

KaizenSwimmer
November 25th, 2006, 08:56 AM
I certainly hope you don't teach this to anyone just starting to learn butterfly;

Dec 3 I begin teaching an all-strokes camp in Coral Springs FL. This will be my first opportunity to teach it. I intend to offer every participant the opportunity to work on both styles. I wouldn't be surprised if a fairly significant portion of the adult population might find BFR easier to adapt to than BFL. In the end, they'll decide which to pursue but I want them to be aware of both options and know how to do each option effectively.

KaizenSwimmer
November 25th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Would the officials allow more than two dolphins kicks per arm cycle for masters swimmers? In my humble opinion...four or more dolphin kicks with a big stroke might fare better than the leap and crash of butterfrog style swimming.

In fact, it is legal to kick any number of times between strokes. You could legally swim in a 200 FLY taking only one stroke per length.

I did formerly avail myself of the extra-kicks option in search of some extra recovery from the exhausting nature of Fly. It was much slower for me -- and, if I tried to generate any speed, more taxing physically -- than BFR.

KaizenSwimmer
November 25th, 2006, 09:11 AM
Terry, I think you could go a little faster if you got in a more streamlined position in the arms forward position,added a slight dolphin kick right after the whip kick and then "ride the glide."

I have indeed been trying to add a bit more dolphin to the extension/glide to maintain momentum. I can do it at times, but have not been able to make that sensation consistent.

However I don't create that sensation by dolphin "kicking." Instead the feeling I seek is that I use my lower legs as a "brace" from which to press my chest down, creating the dolphin.

As for the non-streamlined position of the arms, the arms-apart position is actually what we teach. Specifically, TI teaches flyers to land "wide enough to sink your chest between them" rather than to sweep the arms until the hands almost touch. Reasons:
1) The stroke starts outside the shoulders, not in front of the head.
2) When the arms are at shoulder-width, the shoulder blades retract more freely than when the arms are closer. And shoulder blade retraction is one of the actions that facilitates lower-back release, freeing up a bit more undulation-ability.

However, cognizant of the slight decrease in streamlining in that position, we also recommend giving great attention to streamlining everything else that you can - head in line, legs extended. I think you can see that in my underwater position, and that my forward travel encounters relatively low resistance.

Somegirl asked for naked numbers. With BFL I swam the 2nd 50 in the 400 IM in 51.7 sec. With BFR that has improved to 48.1. And my next 50, the first BK 50, improved as well because I felt fresher.

The Fortress
November 25th, 2006, 09:56 AM
I'm curious. Is there any contemplation that butterfrog may be phased out at some point in masters swimming? It seems like it was retained primarily to accomodate swimmers who learned to swim butterfly with a frog kick long ago? I've never seen it taught to age groupers. But, if it might not be here forever, should it be taught to young adults? I'm not trying to rag on butterfrog (especially when it comes with Peter's awesome purple prose). I'm just wondering if we will really have 5 strokes forever.

chaos
November 25th, 2006, 10:55 AM
[QUOTE=The Fortress; I'm just wondering if we will really have 5 strokes forever.[/QUOTE]
Are you considering the double arm backstroke or the side-stroke and trudgeon variations employed by some in the freestyle catagory?

The Fortress
November 25th, 2006, 11:16 AM
Oh, you're right, Dave, there may be more than 5! I was getting carried away with the butterfrog vs. butterfly discussion. Although I guess freestyle is really "free" style. Judging by your truly monster workouts, you may just prefer 1 stroke: the modern fly. I wish I could do your workouts.

Janetswims
November 25th, 2006, 11:24 AM
I've been working on mastering "butterfrog" for the past several months, and one of my teammates suggested I have a look at this thread. I'm glad I did--thanks for posting the video, Terry. It's helped me think about how I do the stroke, and how I might make it more efficient.

My reasons for learning butterfrog are a bit different. My regular fly is perfectly serviceable--it gets me through the first quarter of my IMs, and I'm not looking to replace it. However, when I was at worlds this past summer, I was struck by seeing some swimmers do their IMs with 3 out of 4 strokes featuring breastroke kick--ie, butterfrog, then double-armed backstroke with BR kick, then regular breaststroke, and then finally crawl. I thought to myself, why not try doing BR kick on all 4 strokes of the IM? All it takes is doing the first 3 legs of the IM as described above, then adding a whip kick to the FR arm motion for the last leg (this is easier than it sounds once you get the timing down). I've been experimenting around with this, and have added the all-breastroke-kick IM to my repetoire of quirky IMs that I sometimes play around with at practice, just for fun. (For the record, all-BR-kick IMs are about 10 seconds slower for me than regular SCY 100 IMs, and about 30 sec slower for LCM 200 IMs).

The butterfrog that I do for these IMs tends to have more of a second dolphin kick than the butterfrog in the video, much as Allen suggests, and the kick that results would probably not be a legal BR kick for breaststroke itself. I don't think there are the same constraints on BR kick when done with fly, though.

I have noticed a few things when doing butterfrog that are potentially helpful for my regular fly. It definitely encourages me to correct my arm position during the gliding part of the stroke--getting my arms pointed out rather than angling slightly down, so that the momentum of each stroke goes forward rather than down. (This might be another way of thinking about the positioning Terry calls sinking the chest between the arms). It also encourages me to release from my stroke a bit earlier, so that my hands exit the water at the hipbone, with the elbows still slightly bent, instead of exiting by my thighs after my elbows have fully straightened. That's a change I've been trying to make in my regular fly, and doing it the wrong way is immediately apparent in butterfrog, as it slows down my timing and causes me to crash into the water and lose all momentum. Releasing early, on the other hand, allows me to recover my arms and get my hips high in time to actually enjoy the glide from the BR kick.

So far, my butterfrog is definitely slower than my regular fly, although the gap might close a bit as I get more efficient (I've definitely not yet reached the levels of elegance and efficiency that I recall seeing at worlds). For now, I'm finding it fun and somewhat useful to play around with a different way of swimming!

Allen Stark
November 25th, 2006, 11:38 AM
Terry, I'll try your arm position for butterfrog,but I suggest you try your arms more together for the 200 distance. I place my arms where you suggest for fly,but I think I'm faster trying to make my butterfrog streamline more like my breaststroke. I will try it your way some and if it's faster for me I'll use it.

thewookiee
November 25th, 2006, 12:10 PM
Terry,

You stated in an early post that the Butterfrog helped you get your hips up more. Do you think you can post a video of you doing modern fly, so that we may compare the differences in your hip position?
I think it would be interesting to compare the two videos.

Thanks,
John

KaizenSwimmer
November 26th, 2006, 04:40 AM
Terry, I'll try your arm position for butterfrog.

Oddly, I suspect the concern with releasing the lower back might be slightly less when I do BFR because I'm reasonably pleased with the body position I saw in the underwater video. I'm not sure how much I'll gain from further efforts to lift my hips more. After all, I've been trying for 40 years and have gotten little return for those efforts. That's why I concluded that I'd be better off focusing on overall streamline.

However another reason I've chosen to practice and teach a wide landing position is seeming Phelps do that on his DVD. His hands never come inside his shoulders until his chest moves over them.

joesflyer
November 28th, 2006, 06:54 PM
Kaizanswimmer, It's heartwarming for me to see your video. My father, Joe Kurtzman, was an avid "butterfrogger" as you say, and doing so, achieved world records. Even when I tried to get him to use the dolphin kick he refused with his traditional expression, "You can't teach an old frog new kicks". Although I use the dolphin kick I have found that I can switch to the frog kick and get a bit more of a "rest". In fact this came in handy in a 200 fly. I'm happy to see that this old kick is catching on. Your contributions to swimming technique have been an inspiration. Thanks. Andy

joesflyer
November 28th, 2006, 07:12 PM
I'm curious. Is there any contemplation that butterfrog may be phased out at some point in masters swimming? It seems like it was retained primarily to accomodate swimmers who learned to swim butterfly with a frog kick long ago? I've never seen it taught to age groupers. But, if it might not be here forever, should it be taught to young adults? I'm not trying to rag on butterfrog (especially when it comes with Peter's awesome purple prose). I'm just wondering if we will really have 5 strokes forever.

There was some contemplation about retiring the frog kick from masters swimming a few years back but there was quite a rebuttle to save it. I really think that it belongs "in the masters". As we age the frog kick can provide some relief in the longer distances. Plus, the frog kick used to be THE butterfly kick before the advent of the dolphin kick. Young adults could also experiment with it and develop a new feel for the water. It'll help maintain their form till they are refreshed enough for the dolphin kick. Try mixing it up. Long live the frog kickers. Andy

The Fortress
November 28th, 2006, 09:29 PM
There was some contemplation about retiring the frog kick from masters swimming a few years back but there was quite a rebuttle to save it. I really think that it belongs "in the masters". As we age the frog kick can provide some relief in the longer distances. Plus, the frog kick used to be THE butterfly kick before the advent of the dolphin kick. Young adults could also experiment with it and develop a new feel for the water. It'll help maintain their form till they are refreshed enough for the dolphin kick. Try mixing it up. Long live the frog kickers. Andy


Andy:

You have a true butterfrog pedigree! Are you a breaststroker too? I have thought some about this "butterfrog." I can see the possible advantages as you age. Anything that makes people happy they should do. And, since it's legal, people who are faster at it would be foolish not to use it when they race.

KaizenSwimmer
November 29th, 2006, 07:58 PM
I suggest you try your arms more together for the 200 distance. I place my arms where you suggest for fly,but I think I'm faster trying to make my butterfrog streamline more like my breaststroke.

Allen
Thanks for that suggestion. I've been working on it and it seems quite promising. I don't get into a streamline as tight as that I used in Brst, but have moved my arms closer together and am trying to make my head action (breathe-and-return-to-streamline) feel a bit more like Brst. I can sense an increase in conserved momentum and the makings of a hint of undulation. It's resulted in a drop in SPL from 9 to 8 with no loss in speed.

I'll be swimming a SCM 400 IM this weekend in Coral Springs. We'll see how it goes.

KaizenSwimmer
November 29th, 2006, 08:00 PM
My father, Joe Kurtzman, was an avid "butterfrogger" as you say, and doing so, achieved world records.

I had forgotten having done so, but now that you remind me I did watch him swim the Butterfrog, in the early 90s I believe. I shoulda emulated him way back then, instead of waiting til now. Who knows how good my BFR might be now if I had.

Allen Stark
November 29th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Terry,keep up your butterfrog and in about 44 yr. we will just need a backstroker and a freestyler for our 400-419 year old relay.

The Fortress
November 29th, 2006, 09:14 PM
Terry,keep up your butterfrog and in about 44 yr. we will just need a backstroker and a freestyler for our 400-419 year old relay.


If you're up for a mixed relay, Beth (Swimr4LIfe) and I can do back and free since we hate breaststroke and don't do butterfrog. Her free, me back. We will be far too dessicated to be doing fly at that age anyway. (I'm sure Beth won't mind me volunteering her because she does say she is a Swimr4Life.) :D

Allen Stark
November 29th, 2006, 09:24 PM
Great, Mixed relays are the best.

Frank Thompson
November 30th, 2006, 12:35 PM
I'm curious. Is there any contemplation that butterfrog may be phased out at some point in masters swimming? It seems like it was retained primarily to accomodate swimmers who learned to swim butterfly with a frog kick long ago? I've never seen it taught to age groupers. But, if it might not be here forever, should it be taught to young adults? I'm not trying to rag on butterfrog (especially when it comes with Peter's awesome purple prose). I'm just wondering if we will really have 5 strokes forever.

Leslie:

I am not sure if butterfrog will be phased out of master swimming. You are correct that it was retained to accomodate swimmers who used to swim that way. It has never been taught to age group swimmers because it has been illegal for at least 33 years and I have the AAU/USA Rule Books as evidence of this. It was not illegal in the FINA rules because there was no specific wording prohibiting it like our rule books. I had never seen anyone other than masters swim this stroke this way in the last 40 years or so. FINA made the change in there swimming rules but keep the exception for masters.

One of the reasons I believe people who did not learn to swim fly this way like the butterfrog is because they have a weak dolphin kick and cannot sustain it for 100 or 200 meters. I am a lot like Alan in that I can sustain a dolphin kick for about 125 meters and then it starts to fall apart. When swimming a 200 Fly if you do not have that kick going you will break stroke and you will not have rhythm timing and it will feel like you are swimming uphill. Your arms will be pulling and your body will start to get more verticle because your lower body will be dragging because of no or little kick. I will admit that I have used the breastroke kick as a survival means to finish a 200 fly because it will provide relief and you will be able to finish better and faster because you will finish in a horizontal and not vertical fashion.

I will add one important point to what Andy Kurtzman stated " The frog kick used to be the butterfly kick before the advent of the dolphin kick" when swimming the breastroke event. It was illegal to use the dolphin kick before 1953 and when they separated the two strokes, breastroke went back to being the orthdox breastroke and not butterfrog and butterfrog became butterfly with the dolphin kick. I think the main intent of this was get the orthdox breastroke back in competition because no one was swimming it at that time and create the butterfly stroke with a dolphin kick. People had been experimenting and using the doplhin kick for about 25 years before it was legal.

Andy I knew your dad and I used to see him at the meets wearing his tiger warm up outfit. He was on the International Committee and he and June Krauser were very instrumental in getting FINA not to change the masters rule and keep butterfrog as an option for doing the fly. One of Joe Kurtzman competitors in masters was Charlie Moss and he won the 1953 AAU 100 Yard Breast using the butterfrog style. When swimming for Michigan Masters and setting World Records, Charlie used this style always. By the way both Joe and Charlie were excellent Orthdox breastrokers and each set USMS and World Records in that stroke. I did a little research on this about a month ago for another thread and its below.

Lindsey:

I found some information regarding this last night at my home. In 1953, the butterfly stroke with the dolphin is legalized as a separate stroke for competition and thus became the 4th competitive stroke. Between 1936 and 1952, breastrokers perfect "butterfly breastroke" with butterfly arm action and breastroke kick, but the dolphin kick remains a violation of the competitive rules. A few of the breastroke competitors at the 1936 Olympics used this method and that was the earliest detection that I found out where it was discovered. It came about because swimmers found a loophole in the breastroke rules as they existed at that time in that the law made no stipulation about the need to recover the arms foward past the breast.

So this butterfly arm action with orthodox breastroke kick became very popular and the fastest method to swim than the orthodox method using traditional arm action and that method was becoming a rarity in competition and hardly ever used. The IOC did not want to add and extra event in the Olympic program to accomodate the vastly different styles. This went on for about 20 years until the 1956 Olympics and two strokes were separated and competed as butterfly and breastroke.

One of the main points to the new rule was this: "The hands had to be recovered forward from the breast, at least when swimming on the surface. While swimming underwater, the swimmer was permitted to use a full length pull through the hips." This seemed to make sense at the time and breastroke traditionalists were happy. But there was something in this rule they never would have imagined and was made popular particularly by the Japanese swimmers. Swimmers started swimming long distances underwater with the resultant long pull through to the hips. They would surface for a breath , then off they would go to continue their underwater journey for the whole race. This type of swimming didn't last long and the 1956 Olympics was the only time that breastroke was ever swam like this. In 1957, in response to this FINA made changes in the rules to allow only one underwater pull and one kick allowed at each turn and after the underwater glide after the start.

As you can see, swimmers in the future namely David Berkoff, Misty Hyman, and Dennis Pankratov did basically the same thing that the Japanese did first in that if the rules were not in place to stop underwater swimming with advanced technique. The difference was that those three swimmers along with others realized that dolphin kicking underwater with perfect streamlining of the body could result in fasters speeds than surface swimming. Of course FINA made changes and restrictions to what these three were doing and thus we have the 15 meter rule limit today for the max distance allowed.

When FINA made the changes, the rule written about the kick was as follows: "All movements of the feet must be excuted in a simultanous and symmetirical manner. Simutaneous up and down movements of the legs and feet in the vertical plane are permitted." From this it sounds like FINA has permitted a choice between the two different kicks and did not take action to change this until 2001, in which they wanted to disallow the frog kick in fly. In 2002, FINA made the exception in masters in Rule 3.10 that "a breastroke kicking movement is permitted for butterfly."

In the AAU Rules handbook that I have from 1972, under Butterfly Kick, it states " All up and down movement of the legs and feet must be simultaneous. The position of the legs and feet shall not alternate in relation to each other. The use of the scissor or Breastroke kicking movement is not permitted." The 1994 USA Swimming Rule book in rule 101.2.3 says the exact same thing to the wording. What I would like to find out is when the AAU changed the rule about the kick and what year it was. I remember in the early 1960's seeing people in the swim club leagues do this but no one else. I am wondering when the choice of the 2 kick rule was dropped and you were only permitted to use the dolphin kick. What confusing is that all along FINA allowed it but no one did it because it was against the rules in the USA. Now when masters came along we had had that rule exception built in there so we could always choose but I don't think that was the case in the old AAU days.

Another interesting historical fact is, who takes credit for inventing the Butterfly stroke? I have read many diffferent stories regarding this and it seems in dispute much like who was the first to use pace clocks. Coach Dave Armbruster in 1934 is one and used it with his swimmer Jack Sieg. Another is swimmer Henry Myers along with his coach W.W. Robertson and performed it in 1933 and used this new method in a medley race against the American medley champion, Wallace Spence and beat him. There were a lot of disputes with the officals at the meet but Robertson convinced officals that the new stroke did not contradict the rules and Myers was not disqualified and this set a precedent for the new stroke to be used in the future. In 1927, another swimmer from Germany named Erich Rademacher did double overarm recovery before he did a turn at the wall and when he touched at the end of a race and he convinced officals that he did not infringe on the rules.

Charles "Red" Silva is the first coach of an Olympic Champion when he coached Bill Yorzyk to the Olympic Gold medal in the 200 Meter Fly in 1956. He is generally credited as the first swimmer to swim the fly using two kicks to "one arm cycle" in competition.
__________________
Skip Thompson

The Fortress
November 30th, 2006, 01:30 PM
it will feel like you are swimming uphill.


I fell like I'm "swimming uphill" doing butterfrog.

Thanks, Frank, this is one long post I really enjoyed reading!

KaizenSwimmer
November 30th, 2006, 01:45 PM
I had never seen anyone other than masters swim this stroke this way in the last 40 years or so.

Skip
Excellent and informative post. You are a remarkable font of info.
When I first joined an AAU swim team in 1968, Manhasset Swim Club on Long Island, I had a teammate Mark Polan who swam butterfrog and he continued to swim it for at least a few years more, swimming at Adelphi University.
That was the last time I saw anyone use it til Masters.

Ian Smith
November 30th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Confirming the official fly date of 1953........

My MS Encarta Encyclopedia (suprising they mention this!) says for 1953 Swimming:

"Twenty-six world-record-breaking feats for speed swimming were approved in 1953 by the Federation Internationale de Natation Amateur, but it must be mentioned that quite a few of the new marks were established in events not previously on the official table, introduced solely because of the surprising action in 1952 of the FINA legislators in raising the butterfly stroke from the rank of a mere variety of the breast stroke to that of a separate, standard style of swimming. This not only necessitated the registration of world records for both strokes, but the changing of the individual and medley relays from three to four-stroke tests.

The approved standards include the following:

Men:

100-meter breast stroke - V. Minachkin, U.S.S.R., 1:11.2.

200-meter breast stroke - R. Gleie, Denmark, 2:37.4.

100-meter butterfly - G. Tumpek, Hungary, 1:04.3." (note how much faster than breast)

I assume the following included fly......(were medleys 300m before?)

"400-meter medley - M. Lusien, France, 5:35.6.

400-meter medley relay - U.S.S.R. National Team (Lopatine, Minachkin, Skriptchankov, Balandine), 4:24.8.

Women:
400-meter medley - Eva Szekely, Hungary, 5:50.4.

400-meter medley relay - Hungary National Team (Hunyadfi, Killermann, Szekely, Gyenge), 5:10.8."

Ian.

geochuck
January 9th, 2007, 05:39 PM
Just watched the butterfrog video. I had better not comment. It is not for me and I think it should be banned from masters unless you are over 70, after thought should not be allowed.

I think I will make a video of me doing the fly with the proper kick I will show you a clean arm entry not too much splash as the arms enter. I will do this after I do a little more than 1 length in practice, about 2 weeks.

I did a 2 beat dolphin in races in 1953 & 54 but only in 50s and 100s, I never swam a 200 other then 1 time

The Fortress
January 10th, 2007, 09:38 AM
I think it should be banned from masters unless you are over 70, after thought should not be allowed. I think I will make a video of me doing the fly with the proper kick I will show you a clean arm entry not too much splash as the arms enter.

George:

I think this is a great idea. You know we would all love to see you in action. Plus, I think it's helpful to know that some folks can still do butterfly as they age as well as butterfrog. I hope I can, although it may be just the 50 ...

You never swam the 200 fly in your entire life? :eek: How'd you get away with that?

geochuck
January 10th, 2007, 10:04 AM
George:

I think this is a great idea. You know we would all love to see you in action. Plus, I think it's helpful to know that some folks can still do butterfly as they age as well as butterfrog. I hope I can, although it may be just the 50 ...

You never swam the 200 fly in your entire life? :eek: How'd you get away with that?
I swam a 200m fly once when some fool (Canadian swim official) entered me in it. I never swam more then a 100 in training mostly did 25 and 50 repeats, and not many of those. Did the endless relays of 25 fly and other strokes with six swimmers to a team every day at practice. It was how we ended our workouts in our club. It ended up I was the oldest club swimmer.

geochuck
January 11th, 2007, 08:07 AM
Terry are you sure that video of the butterfrog is the one you want others to see. I like your reach and arm action but do not like the way your arms slam the water on the entry. To me it violates newtons third law or actually explains it.

KaizenSwimmer
January 11th, 2007, 05:01 PM
And what do you think the underwater view says about Newton's Third Law?

geochuck
January 11th, 2007, 05:40 PM
I did not comment on the rest of the stroke you will find however several of your kicks would have DQ'd you in a breaststroke race, you hips are low because of your slamming the water on the entry. Not as noticible in the big pool but in the endless pool I see them lower however it may be because of the endless pool current.

geochuck
January 12th, 2007, 06:51 AM
After downloading the video of butterfrog and running it through sportsmotion, there were some very good things that I noticed. I liked the glide after the hands stretched forward but did not like the big splash at entry. The whip kick which you use would cripple me, my knees are not that good. It reminds me of a demonstration in 1952 that Matt Mann's son Matt Jr gave using the one beat fish tail kick, it was a bent knee dolphin type kick feet slightly apart. It was almost identical in every aspect of your kick but no whipping action. I think if someone did this it would be much easier on the knees. This kick would also be a legal butterfly kick.

However I will stick to the two beat dolphin kicking with the whole body and if exhausted switch to a three beat dolphin kick.

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 03:13 PM
Gee I like this guys butterfly its is not butterfrog, in fact I like his swimming altogether I have posted this before http://www.amputee.ca/swimvideo.htm