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islandsox
December 2nd, 2006, 02:38 PM
I am interested in knowing what swimming theory you use and why you use it. I hear much about Total Immersion and not just from this forum. I hear much about swimming high on the water slightly looking forward, and I hear much about people developing their own swimming theory best suited for them but using guidelines that help them maintain a technical stroke.

Given all these different theories, it is no wonder that swimmers new to the sport are confused as to whom to listen to.

I borrowed the TI book from a friend a year or so ago, and found several things I agreed with, but more that I didn’t. I am not close-minded, I just cannot find a reason to swim so low in the water with the head looking down. The rolling of the shoulders really concerned me and the fact that so much of the body is low-parallel to the water, this has to increase drag, especially on the shoulders. One thing I will say is most people who swim using TI have beautiful strokes. But, and there is a but, they just don’t swim fast. Maybe I have just been so isolated here on this island that I have not heard of any, but are there any Olympians using TI? Or, will the young-uns using it be our next generation?

There is a USMS club in Fort Worth who advocated TI. Sadly, now they are deconstructing all those methods because no matter what the workout and intensity, their swimmers’ speeds could never develop. I get to speak to many triathlete swimmers here every March. The Elite (professional) swimmers swim high on top of the water looking forward and they use hip rotation, not shoulder rolling. Many of the age-groupers in this event just don’t understand why they are not swimming faster using TI. Now, we all know that most of the triathletes who were swimmers first, and runners and bikers second, always fare better in the swim portion.

I have said this before and I will say it again, there is more than one way to swim. I swim higher on top of the water looking forward, about a yard or two and use hip rotation. The reason for this is picture a person throwing a rock that skims the lake. The rock is flying on top of the water and not in it, so it moves much faster until its momentum ceases. Now, I know people are not rocks, but the principle is founded. Swimming on top of the water generates power and the swimmer can truly feel it. I swim slightly “planed” outward and upward and skim over the water, not in it.

Nowadays, because I am older and carry more weight, I swim not quite as high on the water and this has evolved over the last ten years or so. So even though I started out swimming “high” on the water looking forward, my stroke has become my own personal one that suits me very well. I also want to mention that I am referring to only freestyle here even though with all of my backstroke days, I, again, swam rather “planed” upward because I could get more rotation on top of the water rather than “in” the water.

I am not trying to cause a brou-ha-ha. I am just curious about the swimming theories and why people select them. And after swimming with any specific theory, are you happy with it?


Donna

Allen Stark
December 2nd, 2006, 10:36 PM
as far as I know the idea of head down swimming did not come from TI. The idea behind it I believe is that if you arch your neck to look forward you will of necessity move your center of bouyancy backward. This causes many people to hve their hips drop slightly.which is less streamlined.My theory is you want to be as streamlined as possible as much as possible,except for the movements that are propulsive. Then the issue of propulsion gets into lift vs drag vs vortices vs we don't know. I think TI is great to learn to swim. Much better than what I was taught by the Red Cross 50 yr. ago,most of which I had to unlearn. If you learn the TI method I suspect you don't need to totally unlearn things,but you may need to tweak them to go faster. You are right that the best way to swim faster is to watch people who swim fast and try to swim like them. This was Doc Councilman's real genius. He tried to study what the best swimmers were doing and then fit the theory to the swimmers.

dorothyrde
December 3rd, 2006, 08:04 AM
Donna, I think what some swimmers who have swum for eons forget is how hard it is to learn as an adult. What TI taught me is that position. My legs sink very fast in a straight float without a kick. Even before I lost weight, they did, so it is not about body fat. TI got me into a better position for that, to utilize my kick better. I have strong legs from a lot of cycling, and have a very good kick. If my legs are scraping the bottom, it does no good.

However, I have a friend who also is a beginner from adulthood. I suggested TI to him because he was so frustrated, and in viewing his swimming, I thought it might help. So he "dove" in and applied it, and it helped his form tremendously. He got fanatactical about how many strokes he was taking, and he was getting down to fewer and fewer. He would excitely tell me what he did that day in number of strokes. Personally,I don't do a lot of stroke counting, because once I got my balance, I went on to improving endurance and speed, and stroke count every once in a while.

Anyway, after doing the stroke counting thing for a while he came to me in frustration one day and told me he stroke count was wonderful, but his speed was not getting any faster. That was when I told him to take a couple days of his swimming and start doing intervals and speed work and not do the stroke count stuff on that day. I told him his stroke count would likely increase, but now he was working on building speed. I told him not to give up the stroke count days entirely, to keep the muscle memory stuff going. That seem to work for him and his speed started to increase. He was just spending too much time on technique and no time on speed.

In watching the age groupers for 11 years, and learning to swim myself the last 6 years, I think swimming is not a once size fits all. You need to apply a theory, a technique, and tweak it for your own body's limitations.

islandsox
December 3rd, 2006, 12:52 PM
Thank you both so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences. This type of discussion is what I was looking for: people's experiences because from listening to people's experiences, it helps us to keep an open mind and to continue our own learning.

I truly get excited when a person who swam badly or not at all has found a way, TI or otherwise, to get them into the water and continue swimming.

Donna

tomtopo
December 3rd, 2006, 02:52 PM
Donna,
The "Science of Swimming" by Dr. James Councilman, in my opinion, is the best book on the theories and physics of swimming. If you haven't read it, please do.
I know that there seem to be some factual commonalities in regards to swimming fast and few coaches would dispute them. First, the most important component of swimming is propulsion, the pull, the kick, and then the streamlining that accentuates both.
As a coach for over thirty years, I've found that an Early Vertical Forearm (EVF) position is the most difficult but one of the most important fundamentals differentiating every swimmer from beginner to World Record holder. The EVF has been often called the "catch". The speed of a swimmer can be directly associated with a combination of many things but an EVF, in my opinion, is the most crucial. Think of the most streamlined swimmer, with a great kick but an ineffective EVF. If seeing is believing then please look at the following underwater videos of the best swimmers in the world an tell yourself what you see as a common thread to their speed ---
A wonderful collection of underwater videos that support the importance of an Early Vertical Forearm Position for every competitive stroke. Start swimming faster!!!
tap://wy.wy.com/CrawlAnalysis
tap://wy.swimmingcyclingrunning.com/Videos/HackettBrilliant.mpeg
tap://wy.svl.ch/ElbowsHigh/
tap://wy.svl.ch/CrawlAnalysis/
tap://swimdownhill.com/_wsn/page3.html
tap://youtube.com/watch?v=ub-_LlqR23g&search=ian%20thorpe
tap://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1387883746453817821
tap://youtube.com/watch?v=ub-_LlqR23g&search=ian%20thorpe
tap://youtube.com/watch?v=rjbQp5fjBO0&search=ian%20thorpe
tap://youtube.com/watch?v=P31XJ16C4Ag
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-TomDolan400IMHeat6Sydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-VDH200mHeat6Sydney2000.mpg
tap: tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-Davis&VDHGoldWR200mSydney2000.mpg//wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-IanThorpeFront.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-GrantHackett1500mGoldSydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-Bennett&Poll400mHeat3Sydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-BennettGold&PollBronze400mSydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-KrayzelburgGoldOR&WelshSilver100m19-22Sydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-NakamuraSilver&MocanuGoldOR100mSydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/BackstrokeTurn-SwimcityMediaCentre-Theloke&Krayzelburg100mSemiSydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-NeilWalker100mHeat5Sydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-KrisztinaEgerszegiTraining.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-BethBotsfordGold100m19Atlanta1996.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-NakamuraSilver&MocanuGoldOR100mSydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Butterfly-SwimcityMediaCentre-AngelaKennedyTrainingwithCommentary.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Butterfly-SwimcityMediaCentre-TomMalchow200mSemiSydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Butterfly-SwimcityMediaCentre-Sydney2000-unknown01.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Butterfly-SwimcityMediaCentre-O'Neill&Hyman200mPerth1998.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Breaststroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-QuannGold,Poewe&Kovacs100mSydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Breaststroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-Fioravanti200mSydney2000.mpg
tap://wy.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Breaststroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-AlessioBoggiattoSydney2000.mpg
tap://finisinc.blogspot.com/atom.xml

All the competitive strokes show that an EVF is critical to speed and more importantly to effective and efficient swimming.

I teach my swimmers to concentrate all their effort in attaining an EVF. I talk about it constantly. My dryland exercises revolve around developing shoulder-cuff strength that will allow them to maintain an EVF. *** Think about it, for 40 years we've revolved our training around strength of our pulling muscles but very little to develop the shoulder strength necessary to create and maintain an effective and efficient EVF. I don't neglect the importance of streamlining (on the contrary) or developing flexible feet that will improve a swimmer's kick, but make no mistake, my theory is, "An EVF is vital for swimming improvement".

Type in Early Vertical Forearm + swimming and do some research on an old theory that is coming to the forefront of swimming. Good luck, Coach T.

chaos
December 3rd, 2006, 03:08 PM
Anyway, after doing the stroke counting thing for a while he came to me in frustration one day and told me he stroke count was wonderful, but his speed was not getting any faster. That was when I told him to take a couple days of his swimming and start doing intervals and speed work and not do the stroke count stuff on that day. I told him his stroke count would likely increase, but now he was working on building speed. .

I count strokes all the time. Every length, every set. This is not to say that I don't focus on speed, quite the contrary. I consider it imperative to know what stroke count I am hitting at every speed, only then do I have enough data to plan a race.

Regarding a low position in the water: for me, this becomes more critical as conditions worsen (chop, head wind, etc.) I also find it causes less fatigue in my lower back and hamstrings.

The Fortress
December 3rd, 2006, 04:22 PM
I count strokes all the time. Every length, every set.

If I counted every stroke every length, I'd lose count of how many lengths I'd swum. I find it difficult to think about stroke count, pace, splitting, speed, survival and flying breaststroke kicks all at the same time. I wanna know what your stroke count was for those 67 x 50 fly!

dorothyrde
December 3rd, 2006, 04:29 PM
For me, I just get bored with counting strokes, and do it every now and again. I also get very bored with all freestyle workouts, they make me crazy.:banana:

The EVF thing is interesting. When first starting, I had a coach keep telling me I had no "catch", but not having swum before, I said great, how to I get it. Sounds like for good reason it has been hard for me to develop. That is my thing to work on constantly. Nadine also noticed it, only she said I was "slipping" on my right side. Since I don't have anyone to watch and tell me I am doing it wrong, I am probably doing it wrong, sigh.

tomtopo
December 3rd, 2006, 04:55 PM
I take a proactive approach by performing many shoulder cuff exercises and in the almost ten years, following strength training exercises, I haven't had a notable shoulder problem from a single swimmer (High school or age group, girl or boy)
Shoulder problems are caused by the lack of attention to strength development of the shoulder cuff and the surrounding muscle that incapsulates it. Strength training exercises that are static and isometric do not in and of themselves contribute to shoulder problems. Shoulder problems for the most part are caused by swimming and the impingement and/or trauma of soft-tissue around the shoulder.

The following causes are expounded and can be found at the website following this paragraph.
* faulty stroke mechanics
* sudden increases in training loads or intensity
* repetitive micro traumas related to overuse
* training errors (such as unbalanced strength development)
* use of training devices like hand paddles
* higher levels of swimming experience
* high percentage of freestyle swum in practices
* weaknesses in the upper trapezius and serratus anterior
* weakness or tightness of the posterior cuff muscles (infraspinatus and teres minor) or a hyper mobile or very lax shoulder

joint.http://swimming.about.com/cs/shoulderinjury/a/endswimshoulder_3.htm

Another great article on Shoulder Injury Prevention was Presented by USA Swimming and the Network Task Force on Injury Prevention. (April 2002)
Introduction by Scott Rodeo, MD // Chair of the USA Swimming Sports Medicine/Science Committee and Team Physician for the NFL’s NY Giants
Please go to the following website for the article, it was great.

I encourage every swimmer and coach to follow the strength training exercises for the shoulder and not to think for one minute that properly performed exercises for the shoulder or entire body should be avoided.

tomtopo
December 3rd, 2006, 04:58 PM
Here is the website for the article on Preventing Shoulder Injuries
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=445&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US&mid=702&ItemId=700

tomtopo
December 3rd, 2006, 05:05 PM
Donna,
Have someone video tape you (side view and front view) and underwater if possible but on top will do for now. Then compare it to the follwing swimmers and analyze a bit. It'll be fun.

http://www.limmatsharks.com/CrawlAnalysis
http://www.swimmingcyclingrunning.com/Videos/HackettBrilliant.mpeg
http://www.svl.ch/ElbowsHigh/
http://www.svl.ch/CrawlAnalysis/
http://swimdownhill.com/_wsn/page3.html
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ub-_LlqR23g&search=ian%20thorpe
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1387883746453817821
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ub-_LlqR23g&search=ian%20thorpe
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rjbQp5fjBO0&search=ian%20thorpe
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P31XJ16C4Ag
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-TomDolan400IMHeat6Sydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-VDH200mHeat6Sydney2000.mpg
http: http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-Davis&VDHGoldWR200mSydney2000.mpg//www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-IanThorpeFront.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-GrantHackett1500mGoldSydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-Bennett&Poll400mHeat3Sydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Crawl-SwimcityMediaCentre-BennettGold&PollBronze400mSydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-KrayzelburgGoldOR&WelshSilver100m19-22Sydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-NakamuraSilver&MocanuGoldOR100mSydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/BackstrokeTurn-SwimcityMediaCentre-Theloke&Krayzelburg100mSemiSydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-NeilWalker100mHeat5Sydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-KrisztinaEgerszegiTraining.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-BethBotsfordGold100m19Atlanta1996.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Backstroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-NakamuraSilver&MocanuGoldOR100mSydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Butterfly-SwimcityMediaCentre-AngelaKennedyTrainingwithCommentary.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Butterfly-SwimcityMediaCentre-TomMalchow200mSemiSydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Butterfly-SwimcityMediaCentre-Sydney2000-unknown01.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Butterfly-SwimcityMediaCentre-O'Neill&Hyman200mPerth1998.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Breaststroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-QuannGold,Poewe&Kovacs100mSydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Breaststroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-Fioravanti200mSydney2000.mpg
http://www.nyhoff.net/swimcity/Breaststroke-SwimcityMediaCentre-AlessioBoggiattoSydney2000.mpg
http://finisinc.blogspot.com/atom.xml


Good luck, Coach T.

tomtopo
December 3rd, 2006, 05:25 PM
To the Fortress,

This is an interesting article on types of shoulder exercises and which one is better. Shoulder pain injuries: rotator cuff muscles strengthening exercises compared?

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/shoulder-pain-injuries.html

I know you got this article but the pictures that show a person how to perform the exercises, is worth duplicating. Good luck, Coach T.

islandsox
December 3rd, 2006, 06:14 PM
Coach T,

I am thrilled with all of your responses to my thread. I am so happy you have shared them here so many people will have more resources and more to think about to better themselves.

I have had (sadly) two shoulder surgeries: rotator repair and impingement and this was caused by 40 years of just too much rotation (backstroke). Now, I only swim distance freestyle and it is imperative that I know as much as possible about prevention now that my shoulder has been repaired. I will research the websites you offered to make sure I am properly strengthening all the muscles/tendons around my affected shoulder as I will begin training this spring for an 18 mile open water swim.

I, too, have been a fan of Councilman. But the two coaches who took me all the way were George Haines and Don Easterling. I understand fully what you are writing about EVF, I think it was just called something else years ago. But it is so nice to hear a veteran coach's viewpoints on this subject. I cannot thank you enough for sharing.

I live on a remote island in the western Caribbean. No videos here, but it would be interesting to have myself taped and do some comparison. That probably won't happen though.

Thank you so much for sharing your years of experience.

Donna

tomtopo
December 3rd, 2006, 06:30 PM
Donna,
I think anyone who looks at the website videos and then watches you will help you critique yourself. Good luck and stay in touch. Don't forget, type in Early Vertical Forearm + swimming and you'll get loads of information that will get you posititve results (drops in time). And remember to stay religious about those shoulder rehab exerciese, ---- Very important so you don't relapse.

Caribbean Ehhh, --- Well???? - I give clinics on EVF training and I'll forgo my fee for air fare and a place to crash as long as I can go fishing and scuba diving.
Stay well, Coach T.

chaos
December 3rd, 2006, 06:39 PM
If I counted every stroke every length, I'd lose count of how many lengths I'd swum. I find it difficult to think about stroke count, pace, splitting, speed, survival and flying breaststroke kicks all at the same time. I wanna know what your stroke count was for those 67 x 50 fly!

thats an easy one...8 spl (25 yd)

we did a set tonight:
3 x 300 descend on 4:30 (breathe every 3 on the first, 2 right/2 left on the second and 3 right/3 left on the third)

200 recovery

3 x 300 descend on 4:30 (13 spl on the first, 14 spl on the second, 15 spl on the third)

200 recovery

1000 negative split (for time using any combination of breathing pattern and stroke count to facilitate the neg split)

the more data available: the better!

chaos
December 3rd, 2006, 06:43 PM
coach t
great video links!
thanks

SolarEnergy
December 3rd, 2006, 07:57 PM
I count strokes all the time. Every length, every set. This is not to say that I don't focus on speed, quite the contrary. I consider it imperative to know what stroke count I am hitting at every speed, only then do I have enough data to plan a race.

Regarding a low position in the water: for me, this becomes more critical as conditions worsen (chop, head wind, etc.) I also find it causes less fatigue in my lower back and hamstrings. Do you really have to count? I'm asking that because I share this philosophy as well. In fact, I evaluate the quality of a length by the time lost during the glide before tumble flipping. And I reajust stroke rate and stroke length based on that.

If I end up gliding too much before flipping, and if I can't reajust the technique (simply too tired), then I add a stroke and increase the rate. Most of the time, last arm having pulled tells me how many strokes. I mean right arm means odd number. It can only be 15 or 17 (for me at least). 15 feels very different than 17. So I always distinguish these two. And 90% of the time, left arm means 16 strokes.

As for head position, I don't care as long as buoyancy is fine at low kicking costs.

tomtopo
December 3rd, 2006, 08:37 PM
Dave,
Good luck, and keep me posted as to your progress or lack of progress. Coach T.

chaos
December 3rd, 2006, 08:46 PM
Do you really have to count? I'm asking that because I share this philosophy as well. In fact, I evaluate the quality of a length by the time lost during the glide before tumble flipping. And I reajust stroke rate and stroke length based on that.

If I end up gliding too much before flipping, and if I can't reajust the technique (simply too tired), then I add a stroke and increase the rate. Most of the time, last arm having pulled tells me how many strokes. I mean right arm means odd number. It can only be 15 or 17 (for me at least). 15 feels very different than 17. So I always distinguish these two. And 90% of the time, left arm means 16 strokes.

As for head position, I don't care as long as buoyancy is fine at low kicking costs.

I would agree that I don't have to actively count each length to know what my spl is, but I do (habit at this point). I like to be able to adjust my breathing pattern early in a length that would otherwise terminate in an awkward "to breathe or not to breathe" flip turn situation.
I use my spl to address many different challenges during a given workout.
One example: On "build" sets I might choose to accomplish the objective by increasing spl during each rep(25@12spl 25@13spl 25@14spl 25@15spl for a 100). Building the set while holding a given spl is quite a different task. I consider both useful.

The Fortress
December 3rd, 2006, 09:42 PM
Putting aside EVF, TI and stroke counts, which all you swim coaches know better than me, my new "theory" is that I'm going to lift weights more. (We all know we have to do those boring RC exercises religiously.) I had a long chat with Clay Britt today. He set three world records at our meet this weekend. He had been gunning for these records and just missed in April. He got them convincingly this weekend. I asked him what happened between April and November. He said that he had spent a great deal of time in the weight room this fall. His backstroke looks technically quite nice, of course, but he also looked very, very strong in the water.

dorothyrde
December 3rd, 2006, 09:57 PM
Putting aside EVF, TI and stroke counts, which all you swim coaches know better than me, my new "theory" is that I'm going to lift weights more. (We all know we have to do those boring RC exercises religiously.) I had a long chat with Clay Britt today. He set three world records at our meet this weekend. He had been gunning for these records and just missed in April. He got them convincingly this weekend. I asked him what happened between April and November. He said that he had spent a great deal of time in the weight room this fall. His backstroke looks technically quite nice, of course, but he also looked very, very strong in the water.

I am a strong believer of weight training, been doing it for 25 years. Just be careful about form, because poor form years ago is probably what started my shoulder issues. Of course, weight training is also what as helped my shoulders remain strong enough to swim. I do many of the exercises on that USA website listed above, and have been doing them for almost 20 years.

tomtopo
December 4th, 2006, 02:14 PM
Strength Training is indeed critical. An article published in Swimming Technique a long time ago was called "Strength Training Tips for Swimmers and Coaches". The article has some good points and I'd like to stress that the training opposite muscle groups encourages flexibility and a full-range of muscle movement. So, balanced strength gains are a great idea. Good luck.

sdswimmer
December 4th, 2006, 05:50 PM
just a few thoughts on head position.
I think where you are swimming matters. Swimming head forward in a pool seems to drop my hips a little, in the pool I concetrate on getting my head a little more striaght down but in the ocean the salt helps buoy me up and its eaier to swim head forward.
In the ocean I'm also looking forward to see what I'm goign to swim into. I wonder if either position has an impact on the shoudlers, I would think it would have more to do with having the shoulder always floow the body in either position. THat is using body rotation to clear the water rather than levering the body over with the shoulder..

tomtopo
December 4th, 2006, 08:30 PM
I'm confessing, I wrote the article "Strength training Tips for Coaches and Swimmers" that appeared in Swimming Technique about twenty years ago. Something I didn't talk about in the article were EVF exercises.

Anyone who wants some pictures of a few EVF exercises please email me and I'll download them to you. If you're a swimmer or a coach, beginner or elite, EVF exercises must be on your plate. If they're already on your plate, add more.

I had a reply that said one of the swimmers "knew what she was doing" as far as EVF was concerned and this tid-bit will show you how wrong that assumption can be. Driving Josh Davis from the airport to somewhere?, - he told me that he spends conscious time working on his EVF and when he loses it, he'll work hard for weeks to get it back. EVF isn't new but it's not emphasized nearly enough and knowing how to effectively train to improve it, isn't easy.

Good luck and keep in touch, Coach T.

Caped Crusader
December 4th, 2006, 10:12 PM
Coach T: Awesome video clips. Thanks!

Now, I have a TI comment that shouldn't be that controversial. I know some people love TI and other don't. I personally think TI is great for beginner to intermediate swimmers. But once you get beyond basic stroke mechanics, you've got to do some quality sets and endurance for maximum speed (depending on your target distance). Most triathletes I know that are mesmerized with TI have no speed. They think it's a quick fix, but it doesn't fix their swim leg all that much. They do look prettier in the pool.

Technique is obviously important. My problem with TI is the "all or nothing" "take it or leave it" mindset. There has to be more than one way to swim fast or with "great pleasure." I'm also not real crazy about phrases like "mindful swimming," "examined swimming," or "effortless swimming." You gotta think about things. But what about busting your ass in a tough workout or getting a massive endorphin rush? And what's the harm in blazing through a set even though your technique may erode a bit at the end? So what if one forgets to breath bilaterally or count strokes on the final lap?

I also don't think TI is "revolutionary." The debate about technique vs. volume has been ongoing for years. TI just takes the technique side of things and dresses it up with a "zen" mindset. I think I read somewhere in a thread that maybe TI was a "set" mind instead of a "mindset."

Does TI have any application to open water swimming? I'm assuming it does since Terry is swimming open water. But does not making a single splash matter when you're battling monster waves?

KaizenSwimmer
December 4th, 2006, 10:24 PM
we did a set tonight:
3 x 300 descend on 4:30 (breathe every 3 on the first, 2 right/2 left on the second and 3 right/3 left on the third)

200 recovery

3 x 300 descend on 4:30 (13 spl on the first, 14 spl on the second, 15 spl on the third)

200 recovery

1000 negative split (for time using any combination of breathing pattern and stroke count to facilitate the neg split)

the more data available: the better!

Dave and I train together so, as you might expect, our thinking is very similar. I'll get to that in a bit, but first let me back up to the original question.

Reading the original TI book is a good way to get started on a different paradigm of swimming, but unfortunately a poor way to understand in any detail what TI teaches today. Even so I think it provides a lotta bang for 13 bucks.

I cannot keep that book updated simply because it's not worth my time to do so. I make 7 cents on each one sold, under my contract with S&S, while TI earns up to full cover price on those we sell under our own imprint. So that's where my energy and attention goes. The original TI book is a good tool for a relatively new swimmer with modest initial goals and it draws many people into our orbit who are extremely pleased with how much better their formerly inefficient swimming feels and how it makes them feel empowered to control their own destiny as swimmers. Those who are most motivated to continue their progress update to our more current self-help tools -- or get direct instruction.

I'm spending this week in Coral Springs FL with 20 swimmers and 10 coaches. The coaches are here to be updated in our teaching approach for all four strokes all of which have been modified during this calendar year.

Why does it change? Partly because I have ADD and chafe over stasis. Partly because I'm a slow learner, but a continuous (Kaizen) one.

Don't ask me for a "TI swimming theory" because I really don't like theory. I much prefer solving problems. But here's the most succinct summary I can give of what might pass for an organizing principle of TI:

The non-TI swimming world mostly believes in developing the aerobic system. We believe in making swimming aerobic. (And the aerobic system gets some stimulus while you work on that.) I see that as the key distinction.

I spent about 10 years (89-99) making my own swimming aerobic. I focused primarily on body position and alignment and stroke timing and coordinated whole-body movements. Unsurprisingly, during that time, TI instruction was mainly focused on that. I didn't focus much on propulsion - yet I continued improving my effectiveness -- and kept my times steady throughout.

Around 2000 I began to focus on turning my stroke into a "perpetual motion machine" i.e. being able to stay aerobic for longer distances and slightly higher speeds. I felt as if the stuff I'd worked on previously was solidly imprinted and turned my focus to issues relating to propulsion: establishing a firm grip, learning to propel myself past that grip with well-synchronized hip/leg drive, and adding a bit of power and rate without sacrificing what I'd established. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it kept me occupied for 3+ years. And our instruction began to reflect where my own swimming was headed.

In the past 2+ years I've put more emphasis on generating more speed - thinking about better sustaining a relaxed state at higher effort levels, power levels and stroke rates. Not getting anaerobic, but certainly exploring my "red line." I find myself improving my understanding of how to do that effectively pretty continuously. As I do, I begin to update our teaching materials on what I feel I understand well enough to train our instructors to teach in a consistent repeatable manner.

The original TI book reflects my understanding of only that initial stage. A book we are releasing this week has the most complete representation of what we are teaching and will be teaching. It doesn't make obsolete what we've taught in the past. It adds to it.

My practice today with the Coral Springs Masters:

Warmup - 600 IM drills and stroke counting

Main Set (all short course meters)
100-200-300-400-300-200-100 on 1:45/100 base
Hold SPL and pace/100 going up the pyramid and increase SPL and pace/100 coming down. SPL range was from 13-16.

4 rounds of 4 x 100 FR
1-4 on 1:45 Descend at 56 strokes/100
5-8 on 1:40 Descend at 60 strokes/100
9-12 on 1:35 Descend at 64 strokes/100
13-16 on 1:30 Hold best possible average at 64 strokes/100

For quite a few years, I counted strokes on everything I swam because I was focused on increasing my efficiency and it was the best "real-time" measure of what I was working on.

I am no longer focused on increasing my efficiency, but on staying efficient as I gain speed. So now counting strokes is my "canary in a coal mine." It alerts me immediately when I'm not staying efficient and helps me make choices about how to respond and how to develop racing strategies.

Something's working. Saturday I swam the fastest 400 and 800m races I've done since I was 19.

chaos
December 4th, 2006, 11:07 PM
[QUOTE=some guy;69202]

I personally think TI is great for beginner to intermediate swimmers. But once you get beyond basic stroke mechanics, you've got to do some quality sets and endurance for maximum speed (depending on your target distance).
Technique is obviously important. My problem with TI is the "all or nothing" "take it or leave it" mindset. There has to be more than one way to swim fast or with "great pleasure." QUOTE]



I did a set last week (one often repeated with my masters group)
5x 100 on 1:20
5x 100 on 1:15
5x 100 on 1:10
The "TI discipline" I imposed on the set is this: 1st round held 1:13's at 13spl, 2nd round held 1:10's at 14spl, 3rd round held 1:08's for four 1:09 on the last. This is the first time ever I have made this set at these intervals. I state this to demonstrate that TI certainly does not suggest the idea that "basic stroke mechanics" are "the" long term goal, but rather a place to begin. (though, there is nothing wrong if your long term goal is to swim a perfect 10 strokes, or if your goal is to have no goal...wow thats really zen)Good technique can be applied to any set,any speed and any distance.

Caped Crusader
December 5th, 2006, 09:05 AM
though, there is nothing wrong if your long term goal is to swim a perfect 10 strokes, or if your goal is to have no goal...wow thats really zen)Good technique can be applied to any set,any speed and any distance.


That is pretty zen. I'm not so zen. I need to have some goals to get somewhere and not just be some (fat) guy. I think too many peole find excuses not to exercise. Plus, I like to be fit, which requires more than just swimming 10 strokes real pretty.

But what about the open water? Does swimming pretty help you in the waves?

Caped Crusader
December 5th, 2006, 09:11 AM
Don't ask me for a "TI swimming theory" because I really don't like theory. I much prefer solving problems. But here's the most succinct summary I can give of what might pass for an organizing principle of TI:

The non-TI swimming world mostly believes in developing the aerobic system. We believe in making swimming aerobic. (And the aerobic system gets some stimulus while you work on that.) I see that as the key distinction.

The original TI book reflects my understanding of only that initial stage. A book we are releasing this week has the most complete representation of what we are teaching and will be teaching. It doesn't make obsolete what we've taught in the past. It adds to it.

I always thought TI was a theory. That "zen" "mindset" stuff sounds like one to me. Glad you're ditching/de-emphasizing the first book because I think it had some reference to the "beauty" of Barry Bonds. What's the name of your new book and does it focus on speed and propulsion? (Can everyone put marketing jibes aside so we can have an answer to this question?) I hope you are not using the word "effortless" when you're talking about swimming fast.

chaos
December 5th, 2006, 09:32 AM
But what about the open water? Does swimming pretty help you in the waves?
I like it rough!
The hardest thing for me (i'm not prone to motion sickness) about swimming in waves is sighting. Once I have a bearing, my focus is to get stable (lower in the water) and breathe carefully. Nothing is as disruptive as taking in the brine.

gull
December 5th, 2006, 09:44 AM
I did a set last week (one often repeated with my masters group)
5x 100 on 1:20
5x 100 on 1:15
5x 100 on 1:10

Great set. Is there a break or do you swim it straight through?

chaos
December 5th, 2006, 09:47 AM
Great set. Is there a break or do you swim it straight through?

50 easy between each round

Leonard Jansen
December 5th, 2006, 09:48 AM
But what about the open water? Does swimming pretty help you in the waves?

I can only speak for myself, but swimming "pretty" doesn't help in the waves, but swimming "efficiently" does, especially on longer swims. Three things I've discovered about this:
1) Good: The TI emphasis on balance gives me confidence in big waves, since even if I get "buried" I pop right back up to the top. In 2002 I was in the Little Red Lighthouse race, doing it as a "tourist" when I got clobbered by the largest waves I've ever been in. I actually stopped to enjoy it, rather than panic, and was laughing like a loon as I rode a few monsters floating down the Hudson.
2) Bad: When the waves/current are roughly perpendicular to my direction, I shorten my stroke/glide, otherwise being that stretched out seems to get me pushed in the current's direction too much. I didn't realize this until the 2004 Boston Light Swim, when I got nuked by a cross-current.
3) Good: When the current/waves are with me or directly against me, my TI-type stroke is a distinct advantage. In this year's MIMS race, I started slow and once we reached the Harlem River really started working my efficiency. Until an unknown (non-swimming) health problem surfaced, forcing me out of the race, I was passing people and relay teams pretty regularly. My official observer told my brother that she had never seen anyone swim so relaxed and smooth.

Keep in mind that TI is a theory; not a religion. Take what seems good to you from it and what looks good from elsewhere and then move on.

-LBJ

The Fortress
December 5th, 2006, 09:54 AM
laughing like a loon

LBJ: You're not a "loon," you're a racoon.

gull
December 5th, 2006, 10:04 AM
Good technique can be applied to any set,any speed and any distance.


I agree with that statement. But let me ask you--at the end of that set, how did you feel? Be honest.

gull
December 5th, 2006, 10:56 AM
I'll withdraw the question.

Anyway, my "theory" is that you have to get outside of your comfort zone in practice if you want to swim faster in meets (assuming that's your goal, of course).

Leonard Jansen
December 5th, 2006, 02:08 PM
LBJ: You're not a "loon," you're a racoon.

Actually, that raccoon is "Fred." Fred and two of his buddies live in our lower woods and raid the birdfeeders for sunflower seeds and steal the suet baskets if I don't lock them. Like most raccoons, he's probably a strong, albeit a slow, swimmer - like me.

-LBJ

chaos
December 5th, 2006, 05:04 PM
I agree with that statement. But let me ask you--at the end of that set, how did you feel? Be honest.

honestly, i felt elated. i had trouble sleeping that night i was so jazzed.

physically, after a couple of hundred recovery yards i felt great!

SolarEnergy
December 5th, 2006, 07:50 PM
I cannot keep that book updated simply because it's not worth my time to do so. I make 7 cents on each one sold Then why not sell it 14 bucks and make a dollar 7 cents instead?

See. This is something I never quite understood. Every author is complaining about making too few cents on retail book sales, why not increase the price of all books by 1 buck, so you authors can finally put some butter on your bread?

How on earth can an author only make 7cent on a book he wrote anyway. Publishers are the worst thieves.

Write a new one and please, sell it through your website only. You don't need them anymore.

islandsox
December 5th, 2006, 08:14 PM
These responses are just truly amazing and worth so much to all of us. I have been an EVF swimmer my entire life and to make it easier on my shoulders, I swim a little higher in the water so I can get on top of that motion.

I also believe in weight training, how could one not? And I believe in aerobic and anaerobic sets for our two systems need to experience it in order to train our systems for when this must occur during a swim. They aid us aerobically and lower our heartrates overall, as well as train ourselves that we can throw in sprints during open water swims and go into our recovery race pace with no problems whatsoever.

And I also believe in swimming aids such as fins and pull buoys. Fins helped to develop my hamstring strength, stretch my ankles, and keep my body in proper body position during intense kicking sets. Hand paddles can be more suspect as many people may use the bigger ones and the torque on the shoulder area can be a big problem for many. I use the smaller ones.

Maybe there are several swimming theories for different types of swimming; I really don't know. But I will tell you this from my experience: Swimming low in the water during high ocean wave action can present great stress to that particular swimmer. If an open water swimmer is swimming higher in the water, it is easier to ride a wave and skip a breath than if you are low. I don't even count sighting and navigation as an issue at all here, it is the ability to see and feel the wave is coming, stay high, and realize what must be done at that last moment. If a swimmer is low in the water, the ability to do this decreases.

But I will now speak of open water swimming since this is what I do. When I do the one mile swim here in the triathlon every March, I outswim every single person who uses TI. I always feel bad for them because most of them are swimming 32-40 minute miles which is very slow. And they have this older fat woman who swims the mile in 22 minutes and they don't understand why. The only difference I can think of is I don't swim low, I swim high in the water. Their fitness level probably supersedes mine. Now having said that, I do not know if they are just a poor swimmer, do not work on swimming aerobic/anerobic sets, or a combination thereof. No one will truly know for sure if they are not working on their swimming as much as their biking and running.

But the most sad thing of all is they were under the impression that TI would be the quick fix. I always tell them there is no quick fix in anything; it takes months/years/decades to develop a stroke that will help them with speed.

What has bothered me is after the swim, they come up to me and want to know how I swim that kind of time because of how I "look." I tell them it is 40 years of swimming high in the water and EVF and the fact that I look at that 1,760 yards as 400s, not a mile. And that I train aerobically and a whole lot anaerobically. There is great, great benefit in the conditioning that training these two systems of our bodies will bring to us.

I truly am not knocking TI, I truly am not, but I have heard much from swimmers who were promised from their TI coaches that this was a fix-all. I am not sure there is such a thing and it hurts me to think people may be passing a swimming theory off as a quick fix.

The only way I learned to swim well was by doing it for YEARS, not months nor weeks with coaches who praised me, yelled at me, challenged me, and rewarded me. But the thing that really got my attention was when I, I knew I was doing it correctly because I could feel it; I didn't need anyone to tell me I was doing it right. And this comes with experience.

I got my first charity donation tonight from a company here in Roatan, not the States, for my 18 mile swim coming up in 2008. It was a small donation, only $1,000, but it will go toward one of the three charities I will be swimming the Roatan-Utila channel for. I am elated that people think this old lady can do such a thing.

Joke: now if my husband just won't "chum" off the back of the boat for sharks for an insurance policy :rofl:

Donna

KaizenSwimmer
December 5th, 2006, 09:13 PM
What's the name of your new book and does it focus on speed and propulsion?

"Extraordinary Swimming for Every Body" It will be available for order on our web site this week. I wrote it to update our approach to all four strokes -- developing them, making them faster and racing them. Last spring I began working on a revision of our previous all-strokes book "Swimming Made Easy" for three foreign publishers. By the time I got two chapters into the revision, I realized I'd scrapped the old chapters completely and recognized I needed to write a completely new book and take the old one out of print. That project took me six months.

If you go to the TI web site later this week, you'll find a link to read the introduction on-line. I'm not certain what we're selling it for - $14 or $15 I think.

KaizenSwimmer
December 5th, 2006, 09:25 PM
Does swimming pretty help you in the waves?

My wife swims pretty but not very fast. My aim is to swim fast - relatively speaking (i.e. 3K, 5K, 10K, not 100m) -- and I've had relatively more success in OW than in the pool. Two USMS LD records this past summer.

Dave and I have swum quite few races together. On one, the 2004 USMS 10K championship in Long Island Sound, there was a lengthy leg into heavy windchop and against an outgoing tide. Dave and I swam that leg shoulder to shoulder, focused on being as technically perfect as we could in very challenging conditions.
After the race, our paddler commented on how many people we had both passed on that leg. His exact words were "All those people were swimming so hard and you two looked so relaxed, but you smoked them."

Dave won the 35-39 national championship that day.

KaizenSwimmer
December 5th, 2006, 09:29 PM
Then why not sell it 14 bucks and make a dollar 7 cents instead?

If they charged another dollar, I'd gain 5.5 cents. I actually misstated the amount I receive per book. It's 7.5% of the cover price, standard for trade paperbacks, of which I share 25% with my co-author.

And that's why I began self-publishing after the first book.

KaizenSwimmer
December 5th, 2006, 09:50 PM
I do the one mile swim here in the triathlon every March, I outswim every single person who uses TI. I always feel bad for them because most of them are swimming 32-40 minute miles which is very slow.

Did they know they'd be measured by whether you beat them?

Do you know how they did relative to their personal standard?
There are a good number of folks swimming 32-minute miles as a result of TI practice who are exceptionally -- and deservedly -- proud of that accomplishment, given where they were pre-TI. They're ecstatic because they can do it. because the experience was enjoyable and empowering and most importantly because they now love swimming deeply, where before it might have even terrified them.

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 12:20 PM
No, Terry, "they did not know they'd be measured by whether I beat them" because I was not measuring them, they were measuring me before the race because they were rather rude in their comments about my age (placed on my leg, of course), and what I physically look like. I only swim against myself, not other people. I have never criticized another swimmer in any situation nor would I because I don't believe in it. I believe in constructive discussion and advice when needed.

I am very quiet about giving verbal advice about swimming because there are too many out there who claim to be experts, and I have seen what they have done. I in no way am criticizing any swimmer and/or their time for the mile or any distance. My point is: a 32 minute to 40 minute mile is just not very fast and swimmers in triathlons comlain about how hard it is to go under 30 minutes. If a person is just happy to complete it, then time is of little importance. Just as completing my 18 mile swim will be important, not necessarily the time.

To comment on time, these TI gals knew they would swim under 30 minutes and were very disappointed that day. Maybe they are just very impatient with their speed taking so long to come about, but hopefully they will be back this March and will have improved their times.

We all know how exciting it is to better our times: it is the personal accomplishment that continues to drive many to better themselves and we all know how thrilling it is to achieve speed goals. And if the TI method is helping millions of swimmers, then my hat is off to this "theory." The bottom line is to get people swimming, remove their fear of drowning, and perfect a stroke that they can be happy with for years. And if they can compete along the way, it will open up new avenues of personal friendships and accomplishments thus enriching their lives.

And I do consider TI a swimming theory even if you don't. And I think this because it is an acronym for what so many people refer to: Total Immersion. And it is obviously designed more for style than speed at this point in time. But I am sure that as time goes by, we may start seeing faster swim times for those TI swimmers lucky enough to have found it.

I believe in my swimming theory or style as much as you do yours, and this is why we are both still swimming today. We found a way to enjoy the water, challenge ourselves, better our times, and help others. I don't think life can get any better than this.

And I really do appreciate your point of view even though I am not in total agreement with it. We can respect one another but agree to disagree.

Donna
:groovy:

gull
December 6th, 2006, 12:47 PM
honestly, i felt elated. i had trouble sleeping that night i was so jazzed.

physically, after a couple of hundred recovery yards i felt great!

I know the feeling. My point was that this is a fairly intense and demanding set, not what many of us would associate with TI. So perhaps we have misunderstood what a TI practice really entails. I have found that I fare better on a set like that when I really focus on technique (particularly toward the end) instead of just flailing away.

KaizenSwimmer
December 6th, 2006, 02:03 PM
they were measuring me before the race because they were rather rude in their comments about my age (placed on my leg, of course), and what I physically look like.

Okay, let me make sure I have this right. You go to a triathlon each year and there's this catty claque of "TI Mean Girls" - let's call them the Queen Bees of Triathlon. And they single you out as the object of their derision. But you pay them back by beating them, allowing you to later "feel sorry for them."

Is this an experience that other clydesdale and athena or "mature" athletes are familiar with or am I off base in thinking it one of the less likely tales I've ever heard?

The Fortress
December 6th, 2006, 02:07 PM
Okay, let me make sure I have this right. You go to a triathlon each year and there's this catty claque of "TI Mean Girls" - let's call them the Queen Bees of Triathlon. And they single you out as the object of their derision. But you pay them back by beating them, allowing you to later "feel sorry for them."

Is this an experience that other clydesdale and athena or "mature" athletes are familiar with or am I off base in thinking it one of the less likely tales I've ever heard?


Terry:

Yikes. There was just a little debate about nasty insults on the "USMS Threadies Award" thread. I don't think you want to go there.... PM.

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 02:29 PM
Wow. I will continue to be a very gracious person in lieu of the degrading adjectives used. And, Terry, you are, indeed, again way off base. I only tell the truth and I am sorry if I struck a nerve. I had hoped that we could agree to disagree. I have never paid anyone back for anything in my life, ever. Let's you and I not discuss swimming theories anymore because so many people have gotten so much from it to this point. Let's let them continue with their experiences, questions, and the gaining of knowledge that this thread has given them. There are so many people here on this forum with great knowledge, not just one or two.

Donna

swimr4life
December 6th, 2006, 02:36 PM
Donna,
You win the grace under pressure award. You have a lot of class and we appreciate your input. Don't let a few negative comments get you down. Some posters are very opinionated on this forum. While they are entitled to their opinion, they need to learn to be accepting of other's opinions too. :2cents:

Caped Crusader
December 6th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Okay, let me make sure I have this right. You go to a triathlon each year and there's this catty claque of "TI Mean Girls" - let's call them the Queen Bees of Triathlon. And they single you out as the object of their derision. But you pay them back by beating them, allowing you to later "feel sorry for them."

Is this an experience that other clydesdale and athena or "mature" athletes are familiar with or am I off base in thinking it one of the less likely tales I've ever heard?


Are you actually making fun of clydesdales and mature swimmers?! Should have hit the delete button on this one, that's for sure. Geez, quite a day on the forum. I'm glad Donna is gracious. Not so sure I could have been ....

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 02:51 PM
Beth,

I am so okay with this. I have sparred with the best of them when I used to work in the Supreme Court of California for years and years. I've heard it all and seen it all. It takes a lot more than some insults to take me down. I find it all a little humorous to tell you the truth. But I thank you for your concern but I am used to being around big fish in big ponds, not big fish in little ponds.

Thank you for caring. No problem here. And I will continue to add my comments to this thread if I think they could be helpful.

Donna

The Fortress
December 6th, 2006, 02:54 PM
Now, I know you're not slamming lawyers here, right?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: If so, I want a kiss. I don't care if I'm disbarred. I just doled out some really important advice today on easements amidst all this frolic and banter, and I'm ready to retire (or go swim).



Beth,

I am so okay with this. I have sparred with the best of them when I used to work in the Supreme Court of California for years and years. I've heard it all and seen it all. It takes a lot more than some insults to take me down. I find it all a little humorous to tell you the truth. But I thank you for your concern but I am used to being around big fish in big ponds, not big fish in little ponds.

Thank you for caring. No problem here. And I will continue to add my comments to this thread if I think they could be helpful.

Donna

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 03:25 PM
Fortress,

Believe it or not, it wasn't the lawyers. Go a little higher up in position; it was THEM. But, again, I can't kiss :hug: and then tell.

Donna

The Fortress
December 6th, 2006, 03:30 PM
Fortress, Believe it or not, it wasn't the lawyers. Go a little higher up in position; it was THEM. But, again, I can't kiss :hug: and then tell.Donna

You were already told on. I read it somewhere. Not here. :rofl:

chaos
December 6th, 2006, 06:28 PM
I know the feeling. My point was that this is a fairly intense and demanding set, not what many of us would associate with TI. So perhaps we have misunderstood what a TI practice really entails. I have found that I fare better on a set like that when I really focus on technique (particularly toward the end) instead of just flailing away.

I think many swimmers assume that a TI practice is just drilling at a slow pace. My approach is almost always to swim a set with a discipline and at a rate that challanges me. (unless of course its a recovery or warm up set) If a given set feels too easy, I can adjust in a number of ways: reduce spl, change breathing pattern, extend streamlines. Many of my team mates would only consider dropping the interval.

Before I began masters swimming I participated in several martial arts and yoga. (still do yoga) These activities helped instill in me a desire to seek quality in movement at all levels of intensity. TI swimming satisfies that for me.

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 06:45 PM
Dave,

I am so happy that you have found the swimming method that suits you. I never even thought of TI as a drilling or ez swimming feat. Skillful swimming and conditioning do go hand-in-hand and maybe those gals that came down to our triathlon here just did not spend enough time on sets and intensity. They seemed to be under the impression that stroke alone would take care of the speed and we all know that is not true.

I have a friend here who was a poor swimmer and she is now a bit above average in both technique and speed. She has recently added Yoga and is finding that it helps her swimming tremendously. And once again, I am getting advice and will heed it. I will see if Yoga can help me with overall body balance, strength, and not using more oxygen. I'm game for new ideas.

It is never too late to learn nor try something new to benefit these bodies we were given.

And I do believe that a person is as good of a swimmer as what they give to the training.

There is no easy way to perform to the best of our abilities; it takes commitment and work. I lost that for awhile, but I have regained it again. And I absolutely love hearing from other swimmers here and what they are doing to better themselves.

Donna

poolraat
December 6th, 2006, 07:09 PM
I think we all need to find that method that suits us and our abilities. I've seen triathletes who (incorrectly) use the TI drills and in most cases their swimming has improved very little, if at all. After reading the TI books, I could see where my former coach was applying some of the methods to her own coaching philosophy and during the 2 years she was my coach, I experienced a significant improvement in my swimming. Over the last 3 years, my swimming has improved to the point that I now swim my intervals (100's - 400's) at a pace that is faster than my best times for those distances 3 years ago.

I also believe that if my coach had followed the principles of another method, I probably would have improved in a like manner.

I think the key is in correctly applying the methods and drills, otherwise it's just junk yards.

KaizenSwimmer
December 6th, 2006, 07:19 PM
Are you actually making fun of clydesdales and mature swimmers?!

Not at all. I've been been well above ideal weight for a significant portion of my adult athletic life. I swam for several years weighing 224 lbs, as compared to the 155 I weighed in college. Attended a triathlon too.
Yet I never became a magnet for the kind of belittling attention Donna has several times reported -- most recently from a claque of "TI girls" she reports meeting at a triathlon.
As well at most masters meets and triathlons one will see many people who are not ideal weight and are well beyond their prime years. They all seem to be treated with courtesy and acceptance. Which is why her report of being treated this way -- and by a group somehow easily identifiable as "TI swimmers" -- strains credulity. At least for me.

Indeed it was a thread about swimming theory. I didn't change the subject. I responded when the subject was changed. I'm still not sure why it was changed.

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 08:17 PM
Terry,

I am really glad you came back to offer an explanation to the words that may have bothered some people. People are complex and those of us who believe in something deeply, can become very animated and defensive. I, in no way, am attacking the method of TI swimming because I hear too many wonderful things about it. I may question this or that, but it does not mean I am against it. What I stand for is this: swimming. Period.

I know you find it a stretch to believe my "story" about the arrogance of this group of women TI swimmers, but arrogance is in a lot of people, TI or not. What I reported was very true. Many times, woman can be very petty. Some can view a person's looks vs what they truly stand for. But this particular group of women needed a class in charm. It was missing. They thought because they had been swimming TI, that they were going to fare well and they just didn't; not last year anyway. It worried me that they may have been sold a set of goods without putting in the effort. I think this is a good thing; learning humility is a part of participating in a sport. Their disappointment with their performances truly made me sad because I have been there; you know, high expectations and not being able to deliver. More times than not.

And I didn't change the thread, I was relaying a story that I felt important in that people need to train hard as well as learn stroke development. And I was a tad worried that it was possible that many TI coaches were selling TI as a stroke development without the work of yardage. And many, many people are succeeding with TI's methods and I won't argue with that. There are many avenues to get us in a place of greatness.

You are a fine man and have helped many. You have spent your life in the swimming world, as I have, so we really are on the same page here. Any criticism needs to be taken as constructive criticism, please.

Donna

Caped Crusader
December 6th, 2006, 08:29 PM
I think many swimmers assume that a TI practice is just drilling at a slow pace.

I think people make this fairly reasonable assumption because that's the typical pitch. What exactly is a "TI workout anyway?" I don't think I've heard of one. Are "TI workouts" given in the new book?

I though that TI was expressly called a revolutionary "mindset" or "philosophy" that incorporated drills, whole body swimming, stroke mechanics and discouraged kicking and use of swim aids/devices. Isn't "TI" distinct from other "swimming," i.e., doing a tough workout and thinking critically about technique because that's just part of swimming? If it's not distinct, why does it have that label? :dunno:

chaos
December 6th, 2006, 08:43 PM
[QUOTE=some guy;69553]I think people make this fairly reasonable assumption because that's the typical pitch. What exactly is a "TI workout anyway?" I don't think I've heard of one. QUOTE]

I have posted several sets that I have done with my masters team (not written by a TI coach) in this thread and others to illustrate how I use TI to make my practices more challanging and rewarding. Post your favorite workout and I will be happy to note how I would approach it.

Caped Crusader
December 6th, 2006, 08:45 PM
Not at all. I've been been well above ideal weight for a significant portion of my adult athletic life. Yet I never became a magnet for the kind of belittling attention Donna has several times reported -- most recently from a claque of "TI girls" she reports meeting at a triathlon. Her report of being treated this way -- and by a group somehow easily identifiable as "TI swimmers" -- strains credulity. At least for me.

I had to take my daughter to see "Mean Girls." It does not seem all that unlikely to me that there are some "Queen Bees," TI Bees or regular Bees, "belittling" others. I think there might be an Alpha male on this forum doing the same thing when his swimming ideas are not embraced with great gusto. I would say there are no words to describe how implicitly insulting your prior post was, but I'd likely be told that I had never learned them. You just shoulda hit the delete button on that one.

Are there any other swimming theories? Otherwise, I'm going back to multi-sporting.

Caped Crusader
December 6th, 2006, 08:54 PM
we did a set tonight:
3 x 300 descend on 4:30 (breathe every 3 on the first, 2 right/2 left on the second and 3 right/3 left on the third)

200 recovery

3 x 300 descend on 4:30 (13 spl on the first, 14 spl on the second, 15 spl on the third)

200 recovery

1000 negative split (for time using any combination of breathing pattern and stroke count to facilitate the neg split)

the more data available: the better!

I'm a distance kind of guy so I like this one best of the couple I saw posted. I'm not sure what my personal "favorite" workout is off the top of my head. (Probably that nice 10K I'm going to run tomorrow morning before work.) I don't think I'm as fast as you, so that freestyle set would be tough for me. But, I'm confused. are you swimming with a non-TI coach or a TI coach? Doing a non-TI workout with TI discipline? Isn't that the same thing as swimming hard and thinking about technique?

chaos
December 6th, 2006, 09:19 PM
I'm a distance kind of guy so I like this one best of the couple I saw posted. I'm not sure what my personal "favorite" workout is off the top of my head. (Probably that nice 10K I'm going to run tomorrow morning before work.) I don't think I'm as fast as you, so that freestyle set would be tough for me. But, I'm confused. are you swimming with a non-TI coach or a TI coach? Doing a non-TI workout with TI discipline? Isn't that the same thing as swimming hard and thinking about technique?

Funny you should pick that one. Coach was absent that day I wrote that one.

The idea of this set was to explore a couple of different ways to descend a 300, and then apply it to a 1000 fast (negative split).

The first set of 300's was to descend by changing the breathing pattern (adding air). The second set was to descend by adding strokes.
My non-TI team mates, found the breathing patterns too confusing and so descended without that added discipline. As for the stroke count, one team mate remarked that he never counts strokes and has always relied on the coach to tell him when his stroke was getting shabby and needed to tighten it up.

To prepare an age group swimmer for a 1650 last year we did a similar set:
3x 600 descend on 12spl (change breathing pattern to descend)
200 easy breast stroke (he's a breaststroker)
3x 600 descend on 13spl (change breathing pattern to descend)
etc etc for a total of 12 600's
each set had to descend yet they got easier as the stroke count relaxed.

I swam this set with him sans the breast stroke.

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 09:45 PM
Geez, Dave, this sounds like it could be brutal. Can you post some more TI workouts that you have experienced; say one or two that your brain and body got to experience but wished it didn't?

Donna

Caped Crusader
December 6th, 2006, 10:09 PM
Funny you should pick that one. Coach was absent that day I wrote that one. 3x 600 descend on 12spl (change breathing pattern to descend)
200 easy breast stroke (he's a breaststroker)
3x 600 descend on 13spl (change breathing pattern to descend)
etc etc for a total of 12 600's
each set had to descend yet they got easier as the stroke count relaxed.
I swam this set with him sans the breast stroke.

Dave:

I swim alone like many tris. But if I didn't, I'd want you for my coach. Awesome workouts! Although I have to admit I'm not good at stroke counting... I don't do breaststroke either...

To add a note of levity, please go to www.boreme.com (http://www.boreme.com) and type in "the hoff man of many talents" in the search engine. That's me, swimming in the ocean on top of the water. :D

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 10:17 PM
I am cracking up after watching that. Boy, I will swim that 18 miles to Utila in an hour or two if I had that capability :rofl::rofl:

Donna

KaizenSwimmer
December 6th, 2006, 10:17 PM
I know you find it a stretch to believe my "story" about the arrogance of this group of women TI swimmers

I apologize for doubting your account of being treated rudely. I'm not inclined to doubt that people are capable of insensitivity. My inclination in answering criticisms directed at what we teach is to respond objectively and factually. You could look it up, as they say.

What provoked my response was two mentions in your post of (1) rude treatment from a group of TI swimmers and (2) TI coaches who you have knowledge of "promising fix-alls" to possibly naive swimmers.

Neither comment was germane in any way to the topic of the thread. As well both are, well, peculiar. I do encounter many TI swimmers at meets and triathlons, but they approach me as individuals, not seeming to travel in groups, and until they identify themselves to me as TI swimmers, I'd have no way of identifying them as such, unless I saw them doing our drills. And I know all of our coaches very well. None have the sort of personalities that would incline them to grandiose and careless promises; in fact they're all rather modest folks. So I sort of can't help but end up wondering how you had encounters such as that in Honduras and why you would include such comments in a post about swimming theories.

I appreciate your otherwise generous sentiments.

Caped Crusader
December 6th, 2006, 10:45 PM
My inclination in answering criticisms directed at what we teach is to respond objectively and factually. You could look it up, as they say.

I looked it up. Is this an "objective and factual" description of the prevailing "swimming culture" of which many of us are a small part:

"mass delusion and sickness."

swimr4life
December 6th, 2006, 10:58 PM
Neither comment was germane in any way to the topic of the thread.

In the memorial words of Buford T. Justus...."The Germans aint got nothing to do with this!" ......Sorry...I couldn't resist! I love that line in Smokey and the Bandit....now back to your regularly scheduled post. :rofl:

islandsox
December 6th, 2006, 10:59 PM
Terry,

Both comments were very germane to the topic. The topic was Swimming Theories and in a discussion of this kind, many elements of swimming and its people need to be included to identify any and all correctness of a theory, the drills being done, the drills not being done, and the people teaching it.

I am happy that you encounter TI swimmers without knowing they are such, but it is obvious they know who you are: you are their leader, you are famous to them. In no way whatsoever would they ever cross you or challenge you.

The group of women who made the comments that TI's main teaching point was stroke development and little work on conditioning, got my attention. Their rudeness toward another person who, to them, did not look athletic, just emphasized the arrogance with which they had been taught. At least they found out they didn't do too well and, hopefully, they will put in the work necessary and perform better and create better sportsmanship in the future. I am disappointed that even today, adults needs to be taught sportsmanship. A coach can certainly help with this, a coach needs to be aware of this. No one likes a know-it-all; it leads to bad club harmony.

Now, with that said, this group of women, and I sat with them for several hours at a large table at the Mayan Princess in West Bay, had no clue that anything beyond stroke development was important. So, either they totally misunderstood their coach or heard what they wanted to hear, or the coach misinformed them. I have no way of knowing for sure what they understood or didn't. They only said conditioning was not necessary for TI.

I included the comments about these things because it seemed so faulty to me and negligent on the part of anyone who calls themself a coach. You and I know there is no such thing as a quick fix for anything. At least I hope you know this.

There are always people who either misunderstand instruction or make it up as they go along. I have no way of knowing for sure about the people I had the misfortune of sitting with. But maybe, just maybe, it is time to really have a talk with your coaches. They may not even be aware they are coming across differently than what you envision.

I have said about all I can on this.

Donna

KaizenSwimmer
December 6th, 2006, 11:03 PM
this sounds like it could be brutal.

For some, a practice that required that much thinking, awareness and on-the-fly adjustment might be brutal in a sense. We prefer to use the term "rigorous."
Where conventional workouts might be physically taxing, TI practices are designed to challenge every possible faculty that might come into play in a race. We aim to train swimmers to be resourceful and adaptable, as those are qualities that can be of great value in races -- particularly open water races. The swimmers we coach consider them more challenging to complete in a satisfactory manner than the higher volume/intensity workouts they had done previously.

When I coached the sprinters at West Point, their reaction to being given sets like this was difficulty in adjustment at first. They literally admitted that the swim training they were used to had conditioned them to just tune out to get through it. But they later said that they came to value that mode of training because it helped them with the kind of on-the-fly decision making that West Point expects of their officer corps.

Here's the LCM practice I did this morning at Coral Springs, where I'm leading a 4-stroke camp for adults.

200 Back - count strokes to establish SPL - average 41

6 x 50 Back
Odd: Fist closed with index finger extended 43 SPL
Even: Swim with "big" hands (fingers spread) 41-40-39 SPL

This average count (40 SPL) becomes "N" for the next set.

3 x 50 BK @ N (actual 40-39-39)
2 x 100 BK @ N (actual 39+41 strokes)
1 x 200 BK @ N (actually 30+40+40+41 strokes)
Repeat 2 x 100 at same count
Repeat 3 x 50 at same count.

I swam the first 2 x 100 at 2:04 then aimed for 4:08 on the 200 at the same SPL.
I did swim 4:08 on the 200 so I then aimed to swim faster on the 2nd set of 2 x 100 without exceeding my earlier SPL. Result 1:56 & 1:53.
I did the final 3 x 50 at a recovery pace and dropped to 38 SPL.

The point of this set was to challenge myself to maintain a challenging SPL (my SPL for LCM BK was 44-45 five years ago) as repeat distance increases -- requiring me to give more care to each stroke -- then explore how much speed I can wring out of that SPL as repeat distance decreases allowing me to swim more aggressively. Swimming a 2:04 100 BK at 40 SPL wasn't especially easy so I was very encouraged to be able to swim as much as 11 seconds faster without adding a stroke. This kind of control and effectiveness helps me when I hit the 2nd 100 of a 400 IM.

Next set
6 x 50 FR on 1:00 @ 33-35-37-37-35-33 SPL. This was untimed.
Object was to tune up my ability to add then subtract strokes in a controlled pre-selected way.

Final set
2 rounds of 6 x 50 FR on 1:00
50 "Perfect"
50 "Cruise"
50 "Perfect"
50 "Brisk"
50 "Perfect"
50 "Fast"

In this case, I pre-set the effort/emphasis level but not the SPL.
The "Perfect" 50s increased from 31 to 33 in SPL, but descended in time from 51 to 49.
The "Cruise" "Brisk" and "Fast" 50s went
:47 @ 34 SPL
:45 @ 35 SPL
:43 @ 37 SPL
and same times at 34-35-36 SPL on 3nd round.

I evaluated that as an effective "trade" of SPL for seconds. This is the kind of set design that would be pretty typical of TI.

This is also typical:
In the afternoon I gave a few "Mindful Swimming Sets" to our campers.

One set included
6 x 50 Free.
Focus on firm catch with elbow up and fingers down and avoid slipping toward the midline. Pay attention only to right hand on odd 50s and only to left hand on even 50s. Breathe to right on first pair of 50s. Breathe to left on 2nd pair of 50s. Breathe 1/3 on third pair.
Reason? It's much more challenging to execute that subtle maneuver when breathing on the same side (i.e. breathing right when focused on right hand catch) than when breathing on the opposite side.

2nd set 2 x 150
1st 150 - Focus on "patient" right hand catch with slightly exaggerated left-hand overlap. Breathe to right on 1st 50, breathe 1/3 on 2nd 50, breathe to left on 3rd 50.
Reverse that pattern on the second 150.
Reason? When breathing to right side it's much easier to have right hand catch be "patient" (i.e. no slippage/collapse or elbow drop) waiting for left hand to reach optimal point in recovery. So you use the first 50 to "set the standard" and try to match it on the next two 50s when the breathing pattern makes it more challenging.

A bit different than the "10 x 100 on 1:30. Ready, Go." that prevails in most workouts.

You wanted to know how we train. That's how we train.

By the way, this morning while I was swimming that practice with several other TI coaches, a college team was in the adjacent five lanes. Four of the lanes were swimming, one was kicking with fins. I asked them why they had been sentenced to kicking. They replied "We're the injury lane."
20% of the team in an "injury lane."

Did I mention something in another thread about an unfortunate epidemic of shoulder injury among swimmers who train the conventional way?

KaizenSwimmer
December 6th, 2006, 11:07 PM
"mass delusion and sickness."


I believe this comment was in regard to acceptance of widespread shoulder injury as "normal."

See my post immediately above.

I'll stand by that comment.

swimr4life
December 6th, 2006, 11:10 PM
Did I mention something in another thread about an unfortunate epidemic of shoulder injury among swimmers who train the conventional way?

:dedhorse: Oh no.....not again.

KaizenSwimmer
December 6th, 2006, 11:19 PM
either they totally misunderstood their coach or heard what they wanted to hear, or the coach misinformed them.

There are fewer than 50 people in the US who have qualified to advertise themselves as TI Coaches. I have trained every single one personally. None would ever infer such a thing to any swimmer.

There are probably 5 to 10 times as many people who may claim to be TI coaches who I have never met and who have no connection to our organization. Unfortunately I can't control what untrained and misinformed imposters say or the perceptions they create.

The Fortress
December 6th, 2006, 11:28 PM
By the way, this morning while I was swimming that practice with several other TI coaches, a college team was in the adjacent five lanes. Four of the lanes were swimming, one was kicking with fins. I asked them why they had been sentenced to kicking. They replied "We're the injury lane."20% of the team in an "injury lane."
Did I mention something in another thread about an unfortunate epidemic of shoulder injury among swimmers who train the conventional way?


Now, why did you have to go and do that?! I'm quite sure that I (and perhaps many others here) are being "baited" by that "BTW" comment in the post above. I read earlier that "baiting" or thinly disguised personal insults were uncivil. It somehow seems unfair that you always get the last word or get away with incivility. See, e.g., supra, Clydesdale insult.

Yes, you are quite right, you did mention a little something about that "unfortunate epidemic." :blah: :blah: I thought we had finished that discussion for just a little while with a bunch of :smooch: :smooch: :smooch: . (I know I kissed a doctor and you said all was "sweetness and light.") I thought we were going to argue about baseball. Mets suck.

As I recall, you finally admitted that technique was a "mitigating" factor, something like it "can mitigate other causative factors better than anything else you can do." (My memory of your quote from the "shoulder clicking" thread; I haven't "looked it up." It's ingrained in my shoulder.) So we had reduced technique, at least for middle agers as I later found out, from "mainly" to a "primary causative factor" to "mitigating" factor. It's just a factor or mitigating factor. No more. No less. Possible identified factors: volume, overuse, aging, anatomy, poor technique, fly, paddles, etc. I somehow don't think GoodSmith's shoulder injury is due primarily to technique as Geek wrly observed elsewhere.

Then, you told Some Guy on that "shoulder problems" thread that elite youth/college swimmers -- as opposed to us middle age dessicated flyers -- had problems because of great big paddles, volume training, etc. So again, you're on record as crediting other factors for shoulder issues. I agree that endurance training may be overrated for some. But I don't think Michael Phelps or any decent college swimmer is minimizing "volume" to swim a 400 IM. I do think many of us should throw out giant paddles, but I don't want to offend KNelson because I know he likes them. I'm sure others do too.

I'm generally an unconventional person and willing to listen to many swimming theories, which is why I logged on to this thread, but the sport of belittling everyone's shoulder woes is really getting on my nerves. Shoulder injuries are not due mainly or solely or primarily to that hated stuff known as "conventional swimming technique." In fact, I recently spoke to several swimmers who said their shoulders were better using non-TI techniques in free. Can't you give it up? :dedhorse: :dedhorse: :dedhorse: :dedhorse: :dedhorse:

P.S. Kicking is NOT a "sentence." Try sprinting without it. Oh, yes, you're not a sprinter. But some of us are.

KaizenSwimmer
December 7th, 2006, 05:54 AM
I'm quite sure that I (and perhaps many others here) are being "baited" by that "BTW" comment in the post above. I read earlier that "baiting" or thinly disguised personal insults were uncivil..

You and others can choose to be "baited" or to characterize an objective observation that was pertinent to the topic as uncivil or an insult. It's not unprecedented.

Dave and I were both asked to describe examples of what a TI practice is about, as a way of illustrating the difference between TI and mainstream approaches. We both gave detailed examples of the level of examination and rigor that are characteristic.

In contrast to the stroke tuning and challenging SPL/speed puzzles we spent our time solving (both of which have a thoroughly documented relevance to racing success) there was a college team sharing the pool with us, that represented the more conventional way of training. Lengthy bouts of paddles and kickboards, and even swimming LCM fly repeats with parachutes attached to their legs -- an obvious concentration on power development. That team -- characteristic of so many others in college and senior swimming -- had a signficant portion of the team unable to train because of shoulder injury. You may see that observation as an "insult" and others as a "dead horse." I think it's entirely pertinent if one genuinely wants to understand how and why we are motivated to train as we do, rather than seeking an opportunity to "debunk" what they believe we stand for.


P.S. Kicking is NOT a "sentence." Try sprinting without it. Oh, yes, you're not a sprinter. But some of us are.

Plodding up and down for two hours holding a kickboard, while I and others get to experience the pleasure of using the whole body to flow through the water? Sure sounds like a sentence to me. If it's your idea of a fun time, go for it.

You also conveniently overlook the many mentions I've made here of training sprinters to a very high level without kickboard sets. I may not be a sprinter, but I sometimes play a sprint coach on the pool deck.

Three years coaching the West Point sprint group. Not a single lap with kickboards, buoys or paddles in that time.
100% personal best times from the group, quite a few of them far ahead of the curve for typical college improvement trends. (Nary an ice bag in evidence at any time.)
5 of 6 Patriot League Outstanding Swimmer awards (3 men, 2 women) during that period from a group representing about 10% of all the swimmers in the league - and which group has not won a single such award since I left seven years ago.

Does one tire of the evident futility of answering the same criticisms on this forum over and over and have those responses ignored, forgotten, or misrepresented the next time the topic comes up? A bit.

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 08:53 AM
It's not unprecedented... In contrast to the stroke tuning and challenging SPL/speed puzzles we spent our time solving ... Plodding up and down for two hours holding a kickboard, while I and others get to experience the pleasure of using the whole body to flow through the water? Sure sounds like a sentence to me. If it's your idea of a fun time, go for it. Does one tire of the evident futility of answering the same criticisms on this forum over and over and have those responses ignored, forgotten, or misrepresented the next time the topic comes up? A bit.


That's it. I'm taking you off my Christmas card list. :thhbbb: You mischaracterized my post again and your reply is non-responsive. As you say, "it's not unprecedented" and can get very "tire[some]." Re-read.

I did not "criticize" TI workouts. My post had nothing whatsoever to do with TI workouts. It had little to do with TI, except I did say I like to kick. In fact, I'd much rather do the workout you described in the last post than the college one you witnessed. I've said it before. I agree with much of TI and tend to train that way. I never use a kickboard, paddles, parachutes or even VASA machines -- a product I recall you no longer endorse. I do many of the drills you recommend. I do not "plod" unless I am suffering from "sickness." Why are you trying to offend someone who agrees with you about all this? I am not one of the people that you should find so "tiresomely" critical of TI. Man, I'm sounding like a TI groupie right now ... :eek: So we better, ever so briefly in one more paragraph so Geek doesn't get on my case for overtyping with my non-typing hand, get down to it...

I'm talking shoulders, Alpha Dude. Shoulders only. My post was solely and primarily and mostly about the causation of shoulder injuries. That is the one way we seem to part polite company. I know you are on a "crusade" about this epidemic. I understand that you want to protect your swimmers from this epidemic. I sincerely hope my kids' coaches do the same (although I'm worried for them about hyperflexibility). But shoulder injuries are NOT caused primarily or mostly by bad technique. I am standing on my posts in the other threads which do not contain the words "mass delusion" or "sickness" in them. Why don't don't you let someone else have the last word just one little time?:woot: :thhbbb: :frustrated:

P.S. I think you should use smilies in your posts to lighten things up. Mets suck.

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 09:02 AM
I apologize

Do it more often. It can be fun. :agree:

P.S. Swimming is fun too.

islandsox
December 7th, 2006, 09:03 AM
Terry,

I think that this statement you made is the most important one you have ever written since I joined this forum:

"Where conventional workouts might be physically taxing, TI practices are designed to challenge every possible faculty that might come into play in a race. We aim to train swimmers to be resourceful and adaptable, as those are qualities that can be of great value in races."

The swim coaches (conventional theory) that I have had the honor of being in their presence also believed this. Fluidity in the water was paramount; body balance, timing of breathing patterns with stroke (breathing too early or too late), smooth swimming that appeared effortless, as little water splashing as possible, no bubbles coming from the hands, hand pitch, hip rotation, EVF, no sculling, and the list goes on and on. These examples lead me to make the point that without my coaches, I would not have been a great swimmer with as many records as I held. They gave me the technique, I gave my heart and energy to the sport.

One problem I have is you continually refer to conventional swimming theory as not a good thing, and I don't see how you have the right to say that given that conventional swimming theory has produced hundreds of elite swimmers and Olympic champions. Maybe you just don't want to be mainstream and are hunting for a niche to be different without foundation. You don't have to want to teach it, but you cannot say it does not, or did not, work. It has worked. History says so.

Much time was spent on our swimming design for it had to be second-nature to us before the intensity of training came about. One difference in theory is we swam on top of the water, not deep in it and I am still pondering why speed has not come about for most TI swimmers yet. But I am leaning toward believing that TI may be a very good thing for beginner swimmers, as long as conditioning runs parallel to it. And from a couple of workouts posted above, it looks as such, and those TI coaches who are the "true" TI coaches believe this because of your personal involvement with them.

I will feel more comfortable with considering endorsing TI when I see people swimming faster using this theory. If speed cannot be developed, then is TI a true swimming theory or is it a learn-to-swim program only.

There are always people in this world who put a title with their name and have not earned it.

Our triathlon is March 18th this year if anyone is interested and we are a 2-1/2 hour flight from Houston or Atlanta, or 2 hours from Miami. It is a beautiful swim but the biking hills are murder, or so I have been told. And I will do what I always do, enter the swim, keep my mouth shut, and swim my heart out as the experience is one more to add to my bank of memories.



Donna

LindsayNB
December 7th, 2006, 09:16 AM
Leslie, what I took away from the shoulder injury thread was that what was at issue was more than just technique in the sense of the mechanics of swimming a length, there is how one goes about training in general. If shoulder issues are being caused by volume than one can argue that is too much volume for that swimmer at that time, if it being caused by using paddles then that swimmer should not use paddles, etc.. My take on Terry's point is that if the training regimen a swimmer is using causes injuries then it is the wrong training regimen for that swimmer and that "icing" and pain killers are not the way to solve the problem. In the current thread Terry didn't specify that those swimmers were in the injured lane because of bad technique, just training methods that weren't right for them.

To me it is self-evident that if 20% of your team is in the kick-only lane due to injuries that something is wrong with how they are training.

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 09:37 AM
Leslie, what I took away from the shoulder injury thread was that what was at issue was more than just technique in the sense of the mechanics of swimming a length, there is how one goes about training in general. If shoulder issues are being caused by volume than one can argue that is too much volume for that swimmer at that time, if it being caused by using paddles then that swimmer should not use paddles, etc.. My take on Terry's point is that if the training regimen a swimmer is using causes injuries then it is the wrong training regimen for that swimmer and that "icing" and pain killers are not the way to solve the problem. In the current thread Terry didn't specify that those swimmers were in the injured lane because of bad technique, just training methods that weren't right for them.

To me it is self-evident that if 20% of your team is in the kick-only lane due to injuries that something is wrong with how they are training.


Wait, is this a straw man? ;) I think we've shifted from technique origins to training origins.

What I took away from the previous two shoulder threads was that Terry was fairly insistent that technique was the main/primary culprit. Now, here, you and and maybe Terry have broadened the initial inquiry by suggesting that perhaps both technique and training are the culprits. It is self-evident that such a position is eminently more defensible than the prior one.

Training is a very broad category. I was just focusing on the technique argument in my post, as I was in the two other threads. Obviously, training encompasses many things, including the things that I said could cause shoulder injuries. So some people in that group of 20% who were "sentenced" at the guillotine to kicking could, in addition to having lousy or sub-par technique, have been using paddles, swimming excessive volume, had anatomical issues, hurt themselves weight training, falling off a bike, sleeping wrong or whatever. :frustrated: :frustrated: :frustrated:

No doubt, that college coach was a bad guy while everyone in Terry's camp was a speed demon. I said it before: I'd like to be a speed demon too. :groovy: Since I'm doing a lot of TI-ing, I hope I can be.

LindsayNB
December 7th, 2006, 10:22 AM
3x 600 descend on 12spl (change breathing pattern to descend)
200 easy breast stroke (he's a breaststroker)
3x 600 descend on 13spl (change breathing pattern to descend)
etc etc for a total of 12 600's
each set had to descend yet they got easier as the stroke count relaxed.

Can someone explain the theory behind descending sets? I don't entirely understand the logic behind starting with some sort of handicap like a breathing pattern that makes you slower, or a stroke count that makes you slower, or as I often see in practice just plain swimming slower so that you can descend. I had thought the idea was to swim at a slower pace with better technique and try to maintain good form as you swam faster, but many of the descending sets I see described seem to start with some sort of deliberate handicap, so I suspect I am missing something.

Thanks in advance!

Rob Copeland
December 7th, 2006, 10:51 AM
I will feel more comfortable with considering endorsing TI when I see people swimming faster using this theory. If speed cannot be developed, then is TI a true swimming theory or is it a learn-to-swim program only.
Terry please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you coach Joe Novak?

Joe swam 20.1 in the 50, 44.1 in the 100. These are pretty fast, at least by my standards.

As for endorsing TI, I wouldn’t endorse or reject it based on just a few good or bas swimmers. However what I do endorse is anyone who is providing products and services to enhance the masters swimming experience and helping adults to be swimming for life. Terry is one of a handful of people who has dedicated his career to providing these programs and services. Just imagine how many more better swimmers we would have if we had 100 such people.




Our triathlon is March 18th this year if anyone is interested and we are a 2-1/2 hour flight from Houston or Atlanta, or 2 hours from Miami. It is a beautiful swim but the biking hills are murder, or so I have been told. And I will do what I always do, enter the swim, keep my mouth shut, and swim my heart out as the experience is one more to add to my bank of memories.
Any chance that you could get hooked up with Randy Nutt and get an open water swim tied into the triathlon?

Caped Crusader
December 7th, 2006, 11:01 AM
However what I do endorse is anyone who is providing products and services to enhance the masters swimming experience and helping adults to be swimming for life. Terry is one of a handful of people who has dedicated his career to providing these programs and services. Just imagine how many more better swimmers we would have if we had 100 such people.

Well said! :applaud: Maybe we'd get more young boys in the pool or ocean too. Now, it would be even better if those 100 new folks were not accusing other dedicated swimming folk of suffering from "mass delusion and sickness." I think he should take that back.

poolraat
December 7th, 2006, 11:22 AM
Our triathlon is March 18th this year if anyone is interested and we are a 2-1/2 hour flight from Houston or Atlanta, or 2 hours from Miami. It is a beautiful swim but the biking hills are murder, or so I have been told. And I will do what I always do, enter the swim, keep my mouth shut, and swim my heart out as the experience is one more to add to my bank of memories.


How far is the swim? I would love to do an ocean swim. It would be a first for me. All of my open water experience has been in small lakes & reservoirs.

swimr4life
December 7th, 2006, 11:25 AM
Terry,
I want to tell you we all appreciate your passion for teaching swimming. Like Rob said, we need more coaches like you that are PASSIONATE about teaching good technique. I have seen programs that don't stress technique and yes they do seem to have more injuries. My only problem with your posts is how you respond to anyone questioning TI and some of your statements about shoulder injuries. I understand how it is when you passionately believe your way is the best way. You've been coaching for years and have seen what works for your athletes so you want to share it with others. :applaud: But, I think you need to be more objective some times and listen to other's opinions without taking it personally or as an afront to TI. Maybe you could learn something from us old swimmers too? Just my :2cents:

Caped Crusader
December 7th, 2006, 11:33 AM
Terry,
I want to tell you we all appreciate your passion for teaching swimming. Like Rob said, we need more coaches like you that are PASSIONATE about teaching good technique. I have seen programs that don't stress technique and yes they do seem to have more injuries. My only problem with your posts is how you respond to anyone questioning TI and some of your statements about shoulder injuries. I understand how it is when you passionately believe your way is the best way. You've been coaching for years and have seen what works for your athletes so you want to share it with others. :applaud: But, I think you need to be more objective some times and listen to other's opinions without taking it personally or as an afront to TI. Maybe you could learn something from us old swimmers too? Just my :2cents:


Well said, and in such a civil way. I think the song "My Way Or The Highway" is on my kid's ipod. That's where it should stay. :cool:

Your post illustrates why I just nominated you for "Best Swim Coach" on that award thread. :bow:

islandsox
December 7th, 2006, 11:35 AM
Rob,

Thank you for your insights. I wasn't aware that Joe was coached by Terry all along the way. I thought Joe was coached by Terry after he had become a rather great swimmer utilizing other coaches. But if this is so and I am mistaken, then cudos to Terry for developing a swimmer and taking him to the big leagues.

I truly believe that Terry wants to better his swimmers, thus the reason he is so dedicated.

But you are wrong, there are a lot of other people who have devoted their lives to bettering swimmers. They are not normally mentioned here because this apppears to be a Terry Laughlin Fan Club. What about Bill Stuart, what about Linda Gilchrist, what about the now deceased Ray and Zada Taft? Now maybe the difference is two of these people devoted over 50 years of their lives to the swimming world, but they are now no longer living and this may be considered the end of an era. And also the Rinconada Masters Coach who trained one of their swimmers and he swam the English Channel; this was about 3 years ago.

And even Don Easterling who produced Doug Russell is in his 80s now and still running swimming camps. He taught swimmers from early age group all the way through collegiate swimming; I believe it was in North Carolina. He also trained Dashelle Maines in breastroke. But he now lives back in Texas. And Don Easterling took me to the 68 Olympics, I have to mention this one more time and the last time, but I was an alternate and proud of it.

Maybe the difference is these people who devoted their lives and still do, are not popular anymore because they are old-timers and even though they produced elite swimmers, they have not produced any recently. Maybe this is the distinction. But there are people, and more than a handful, who are still giving of themselves to better people who enter the swimming world. It's just that their names are not mentioned on this forum because maybe it is a conflict with Terry's status. This is why I am mentioning them; there are a lot of people doing the same kind of good work that Terry is doing and deserve credit also. And someone coached Terry, it would be nice to see if any credit could be given to that person or persons.

I have thought about Randy and an open water swimming event here, but our triathlon is sanctioned by the ITC and any other open water swim would have to be separate from the triathlon. Seeing people go under 2 hours for the entire thing blows my mind, especially with our hills here. But I am trying to get interest for the 18 mile swim from Roatan to Utila, the one I will attempt in 2008. Randy might just be the fellow to contact for that one.

Thank you Rob for your words.

Donna

Caped Crusader
December 7th, 2006, 11:40 AM
there are people, and more than a handful, who are still giving of themselves to better people who enter the swimming world.

I give up a lot to haul my kids to swim practices and meets and they better not get shoulder injuries or I will be really pissed. :yawn: They better also grow up to be better people than if they hadn't competed in endurance sports.

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 12:00 PM
Terry,
I want to tell you we all appreciate your passion for teaching swimming. Like Rob said, we need more coaches like you that are PASSIONATE about teaching good technique. I have seen programs that don't stress technique and yes they do seem to have more injuries. My only problem with your posts is how you respond to anyone questioning TI and some of your statements about shoulder injuries. I understand how it is when you passionately believe your way is the best way. You've been coaching for years and have seen what works for your athletes so you want to share it with others. :applaud: But, I think you need to be more objective some times and listen to other's opinions without taking it personally or as an afront to TI. Maybe you could learn something from us old swimmers too? Just my :2cents:

At least someone gets the very narrow point I was trying to make.
:smooch: :smooch: :smooch: :smooch: :smooch:

islandsox
December 7th, 2006, 12:04 PM
Poolrat,

Our triathlon will be two distances; Olympic and Sprint. You can either swim the 1500K or the 750K. You can register online. Type in Bay Islands 2007 Triathlon and the website pops up. There is a race cap of 250.

This thread is evolving but I think it is so very important to all.

Donna

gull
December 7th, 2006, 12:12 PM
Can someone explain the theory behind descending sets?

Descending a set reinforces pacing and negative splitting. Also, you can address more than one energy system in the same set.

islandsox
December 7th, 2006, 12:39 PM
Gull,

That is a great set of few words to explain it. I wanted to also but was trying to not make it wordy.

But I will add one thing for Lindsay: I don't really start with a handicap, I usually start at about 75% and increase the effort for each of the swims, thus trying to maintain or negative split them. This is a wonderful tool; it helps a person to be able to swim their entire event at about the same speed all the way through it. Training this way may be that magic bullet we are all looking for; at least for me it is. Great aerobic training and usually on my last one, it starts to be anaerobic and I am in favor of both of these types of "systems" training.

Donna

SwimStud
December 7th, 2006, 12:42 PM
At least someone gets the very narrow point I was trying to make.
:smooch: :smooch: :smooch: :smooch: :smooch:

Beth, check your pockets for a busines card! :rofl:

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 12:52 PM
Beth, check your pockets for a busines card! :rofl:

That's it, I'm giving up the practice of law. I'm just going to run and swim and kick and go to PTs and go to TI clinics and, because I'm doing the latter, do fly all the time with Beth. (Besides, we can wear fins together and get them caught in our duvet covers.) I know for a fact that she's an elite masters swimmer. I don't know who her coach is though. She's probably going to that SC Champs meet in Texas she's so darn fast ... even with that shoulder problem.

If you're not careful, Rich, I'll take you off my Christmas card list too. :rofl:

SwimStud
December 7th, 2006, 12:55 PM
If you're not careful, Rich, I'll take you off my Christmas card list too. :rofl:

<----Look at the pic...where will I put the card anyhow? :banana:

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 12:57 PM
Right under that blue stuff.

swimr4life
December 7th, 2006, 02:49 PM
That's it, I'm giving up the practice of law. I'm just going to run and swim and kick and go to PTs and go to TI clinics and, because I'm doing the latter, do fly all the time with Beth. (Besides, we can wear fins together and get them caught in our duvet covers.) I know for a fact that she's an elite masters swimmer. I don't know who her coach is though. She's probably going to that SC Champs meet in Texas she's so darn fast ... even with that shoulder problem.

If you're not careful, Rich, I'll take you off my Christmas card list too. :rofl:

Thanks for the compliment Fortress. You are so kind! :smooch: I'm definitely not going to that meet in Texas. You have to be smokin' fast to swim in that meet! My training this past year has not exactly been consistent. Too many family things and illnesses going on! I'm swimming a meet this weekend and it's gonna be "do the best you can and don't worry about your times". We'll see! My coach is Kim Hurst and she is the most awesome coach I could ever ask for! I'm very blessed! Her theory is to give us lots of variety! We do sprint, middle distance, distance, aerobic and anaerobic workouts. She incorporates free, IM and stroke sets. She keeps it interesting and challenging. We use kickboards and sometimes fins for kicking sets and pull buoys for pulling sets (I only do if my shoulder is healthy!... and I NEVER use paddles!).I like her theory because I never get bored or in a rut.

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 04:00 PM
My coach is Kim Hurst and she is the most awesome coach I could ever ask for! I'm very blessed! Her theory is to give us lots of variety! We do sprint, middle distance, distance, aerobic and anaerobic workouts. She incorporates free, IM and stroke sets. She keeps it interesting and challenging. We use kickboards and sometimes fins for kicking sets and pull buoys for pulling sets (I only do if my shoulder is healthy!... and I NEVER use paddles!).I like her theory because I never get bored or in a rut.

I hate to get bored at practice as well. It's that sprinter short attention span. This does not sound very TI though. She must be quite "conventional." You are actually using some swimming devices and doing kick sets .... How did you get to be so fast?! Or maybe that's why you did? :rofl: With so many swimming theories, who can tell? ;)

FlyQueen
December 7th, 2006, 04:46 PM
I hate to get bored at practice as well. It's that sprinter short attention span. This does not sound very TI though. She must be quite "conventional." You are actually using some swimming devices and doing kick sets .... How did you get to be so fast?! Or maybe that's why you did? :rofl: With so many swimming theories, who can tell? ;)


I think you need to do what works best for you ... the key is finding that and you probably need a coach that can give some individualized attention. My old coach was fabulous with this. Individualized sets, intervals, and drills. He understood that since I am shorter than most other swimmers I was going to take more strokes and have a wider recovery, blah, blah, blah ....

KaizenSwimmer
December 7th, 2006, 10:15 PM
Terry please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you coach Joe Novak?

Joe swam 20.1 in the 50, 44.1 in the 100. These are pretty fast, at least by my standards.

Rob
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I've referred several times on this forum to things we did while I coached the sprinters at Army. Joe was certainly the star performer in that group, all of whom improved strikingly. As a plebe, Joe went 21.9 for 50 and 49.1 for the 100. That was with "conventional" training. (I'm not sure why that word choice should raise hackles but if anyone wants to suggest a better one, go ahead.)

What that means is that his training was mostly about how hard he could go for how long. And his race plan was go as hard as you can for as long as you can. The "unconventional" training plan we followed was based on deconstructing the 100 race, starting with a goal of being able to remain at maximum speed on the final 25 when other sprinters typically are decelerating.

We didn't pursue that by training more or harder, nor by doing anything special in the weight room, but by breaking the 100 race into three phases - groove your stroke (1st 25), build to max velocity (middle 50), hold max velocity (final 25). Every minute of training was devoted to developing stroke efficiency, start/turn/breakout efficiency or rehearsing some aspect of each racing phase. As I told them repeatedly, "You're not here to get in shape; you're here to practice the skills that win races."

Joe improved over the next three seasons to 20.0 and 44.1.

That was seven years ago. I haven't focused much on high-performance swimming since then. I volunteered for the position at Army for one reason. There was so much skepticism about TI at the time that "TI is fine for slow swimmers or unskilled swimmers, but it won't make you fast."

I thought the best way to address that was to coach some already fairly accomplished swimmers "the TI way" and demonstrate that the principles we were teaching adults on weekends were simply sound hydrodynamics for any human body in the water, regardless of speed or ambition. I asked Ray Bosse to give me the most underperforming group on the team. That was the sprinters.

Over the next three seasons that group became, by a significant margin, the most overachieving group in the conference. There was also the usual sprinkling of shoulder problems in the group when I became their coach. Over the next three seasons, no one in that group needed so much as an ice pack or an ibuprofen. Why? Because we were absolutely unswerving in practicing sound body mechanics on every stroke.

As has been made evident on this thread, my effort to mollify the skeptics at that time didn't gain much traction.

And the college program I referred to earlier isn't coached by a "bad person." He's a very nice and well-meaning person with whom I'm friendly and who wants the best for his swimmers and is coaching them similarly to how most of his peers coach. But at least on the evidence of the number of swimmers unable to train fully, their training practices aren't as healthy as they could be. Applying power to unsound movements (that's technique) isn't good for a joint as vulnerable as the shoulder.

When a situation like that is widespread and ongoing, it's a sign that something's amiss. I'll continue this "crusade" - even at the risk of being thought tiresome - until I see improvement.

KaizenSwimmer
December 7th, 2006, 10:26 PM
And someone coached Terry, it would be nice to see if any credit could be given to that person or persons.

Bill Irwin at Manhasset Swim Club 1967-1972 and Dick Krempecki at St John's University 1968-1972. I dedicated my first book to both gentlemen - and to Bill Boomer - as follows:

"Dedicated to Dick Krempecki for inspiring me to be a swimming coach, to Bill Irwin for motivating me to be a coach who teaches, and to Bill Boomer for sharing his insights on what to teach."

I hope to train a thousand other coaches in my lifetime.

KaizenSwimmer
December 7th, 2006, 10:36 PM
My only problem with your posts is how you respond to anyone questioning TI

If only you knew how much time I have spent answering those questions, only to have the same questions crop up again and again and again, regardless.

I honestly don't have a problem with being challenged on any statement. If it's not capable of being defended or substantiated, I can't in good faith continue to make it. It's the frequent and persistent mischaracterizing of what we advocate that gets frustrating.

While I am unreluctant to admit that my goal is one that would in most cases be grounds for diagnosis of a grandiosity complex -- to change the world, at least the way the world practices and teaches swimming -- I feel unbelievably fortunate that after 34 years of coaching I can still wake up every morning passionate about what I do.

LindsayNB
December 7th, 2006, 11:55 PM
I am amazed, and grateful, that Terry sticks around here. I don't agree with everything he says, and he could probably offend less people by generalizing less about other coach's approaches, but he posts a lot of interesting and thought provoking stuff. If he gets a little defensive on occasion I think you only need to read what some people say about him to understand why. In any case, I encourage everyone to refrain from comments of a personal nature, there are plenty of interesting topics to discuss without needing to get personal, discuss the issues not the personalities and all that. :2cents:

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 12:24 AM
If only you knew how much time I have spent answering those questions, only to have the same questions crop up again and again and again, regardless.

I honestly don't have a problem with being challenged on any statement. If it's not capable of being defended or substantiated, I can't in good faith continue to make it. It's the frequent and persistent mischaracterizing of what we advocate that gets frustrating.

While I am unreluctant to admit that my goal is one that would in most cases be grounds for diagnosis of a grandiosity complex -- to change the world, at least the way the world practices and teaches swimming -- I feel unbelievably fortunate that after 34 years of coaching I can still wake up every morning passionate about what I do.

Terry:

Do not spend time on defending yourself. Let your results speak for themselves. Defending yourself with insults is never the best answer. (I know you said some stuff about objectivity, but to quote KNelson, I'm not "buying" that you are strictly "objective" and rational after reading some of your posts.) I may be wrong (don't tell me if I am), but I also think that most people just don't like being called "delusional." Now, everyone would do best to heed Miss Manner's advice, and ignore insults. But she's kinda girly. So here's my take.

I actually think it's fine to have a grandiosity complex. Most people in this world are sitting on their you-know-what doing nothing. Not only do they not have meaningful goals, they have no goals whatsoever beyond their immediate trivials need. (Like right now, I'm tired and I'm pretty sure my youngest is going to wake me up again with her cold and that will piss me off.) But the best way to achieve those goals is to make people think that you are great. You've already got a good platform; you might just need an attitude adjustment on this forum.

For example, from the threads I've perused, you're rocking with the newbies and the intermediates. You're their idol. You are changing their world and they love you. Mission accomplished. Where you're taking it on the chin is with the masters swimmer who were former age group stars. They just don't want to be told that their shoulder injuries can only and inevitably be caused by awful technique or that TI is the only way to swim fast. So maybe it would behoove (I hated when my father used this word) you to listen up a bit. Most of these feisty masters (women mostly, it seems, where are the men? are they less feisty than the women?) seem to be nationally and/or world ranked or former Olympians from what I've read or researched or heard via PM. Do you really have to rag on them? Don't their results speak for themselves too? I actually think most of them were trying to agree with you on the technique stuff. But you wouldn't give them even a little "mollification." Dude, where are your people skills? This works well with women. Sorry gals, although I will take mollification too, especially if I'm sick.

Look, go forth and conquer. Like I said somewhere before, I don't remember where, no need for kids to get injured. I already do too much driving. I don't want to drive to PT or ART or massage therapists. It's bad enough kids are demanding fastskins at such a young age. (I'm drawing the line on wesuits. If it isn't below 70 degrees, go swim in the cold water. You'll warm up fast and not waste time transitioning.) But you better co-opt everyone if you want world change. And be willing to take your licks too. It ain't easy being the top dog, particularly if you're going to say you're "revolutionary." That's a bit of a stretch. Maybe you should just say you're the top technique guy and leave it at that. Or maybe now with your new book, which hopefully will contain some heart stopping, make you fast "TI workouts" you can be the technique plus speed guy. All I purport to know is this:

Greatness + Modesty + Results + Proper Maketing = World Change

The Fortress
December 8th, 2006, 08:31 AM
I am amazed, and grateful, that Terry sticks around here. I don't agree with everything he says, and he could probably offend less people by generalizing less about other coach's approaches, but he posts a lot of interesting and thought provoking stuff. If he gets a little defensive on occasion I think you only need to read what some people say about him to understand why. In any case, I encourage everyone to refrain from comments of a personal nature, there are plenty of interesting topics to discuss without needing to get personal, discuss the issues not the personalities and all that. :2cents:

To be sure, Terry has been completely ragged on in those old closed anti-TI posts. He shows guts to stick around. He does post a lot of interesting and thought provoking stuff. But provoking thoughts sometimes means provoking disagreement. And sometimes he's a bit of a terrier in defending the "thought" he provoked. No doubt, the forum is way better off with him. Just like it's better off with you because you are a rocket scientist. But civility works both ways. As you said, "everyone" should refrain from nastiness. :2cents: I have noticed you yourself like to tweek people on occasion with logic and the spot on acerbic comment. ;) But it's OK, that's the entertainment value of the forum. We don't need to be snoozin' here.

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 09:18 AM
I am amazed, and grateful, that Terry sticks around here. I don't agree with everything he says, and he could probably offend less people by generalizing less about other coach's approaches, but he posts a lot of interesting and thought provoking stuff. If he gets a little defensive on occasion I think you only need to read what some people say about him to understand why. In any case, I encourage everyone to refrain from comments of a personal nature, there are plenty of interesting topics to discuss without needing to get personal, discuss the issues not the personalities and all that. :2cents:

This is all well and good, but don't be spoiling our fun. Levity is good. A little personality spices things up as well. :groovy: I personally get a bit of a laugh when Geek swooshes in like Batman and zings someone. I'm sure he'll be zinging me at some point.

islandsox
December 8th, 2006, 09:32 AM
This thread has been one of the most informative, challenging, and rewarding experiences since I have joined this forum. I am not only grateful for everyone's comments, I am learning much from the posts.

And even though I am a "clydesdale", at least I am one because that means I am still swimming. And now that I am older and less fit, I find it important to be here because as my body is aging, I do find, from time-to-time, that swimming like I used to is differently difficult, so I do search for those new methods to adjust my technique. This is why I was asking so much about TI and the fact that this may be the new "wave" of swimming theory. I would never bash a swimmer's choice of technique; I would just disagree with it if it wasn't working for them.

I guess I am also guilty of a cop-out. I choose distance because it is now easier than trying to swim a 1:12 100 meter back. Not possible anymore, nor would I want to try. But I have paid my dues and enjoyed some degree of glory along the way. But, like the saying goes: we all get knocked off our pedestals at some point because there is always someone faster. And even when we age-up, they follow us.

I have respect for Terry; his passion is unparalleled. But I would prefer that he talk with me, not at me and keep his insults at a minimum. Anyone who slings insults does not have the kind of character that I would want to be associated with and this goes for anyone who does this. It reminds me of "negative management."

After all that has been written, believe it or not, I still have questions about the use of TI. And please correct me if I am wrong:

TI swimmers swim more low in the water, or downhill

TI swimmers do not endorse swim aids

TI swimmers do not utilize high-intensity training

Would TI technique methods help me with my upcoming 18 mile swim? Can small adjustments be made since I only have about a year & half to the swim? I have no intention of swiming this thing fast; the objective is to complete it.

I will continue to remain open-minded.

Donna;)

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 09:38 AM
I guess I am also guilty of a cop-out. I choose distance because it is now easier than trying to swim a 1:12 100 meter back. Donna;)

Distance is no cop-out, Donna. I said it before .. somewhere. I've been a little wordy lately. Go long or go home. :groovy:

Leonard Jansen
December 8th, 2006, 09:57 AM
That's it, I'm giving up the practice of law.

I believe there is a verse in the Christian bible to the effect that "Heaven shall rejoice more at the repentence of one sinner than in the deliverance of all the righteous." Or something to that effect.

Now we just have to get you into open water races as well.

-LBJ

The Fortress
December 8th, 2006, 10:51 AM
This is all well and good, but don't be spoiling our fun. Levity is good. A little personality spices things up as well. :groovy: I personally get a bit of a laugh when Geek swooshes in like Batman and zings someone. I'm sure he'll be zinging me at some point.


Are you afraid that Geek will steal your cape? :rofl:

SwimStud
December 8th, 2006, 10:52 AM
Are you afraid that Geek will steal your cape? :rofl:

Just pray it's the cape and not the tights! :joker:

The Fortress
December 8th, 2006, 10:55 AM
I believe there is a verse in the Christian bible to the effect that "Heaven shall rejoice more at the repentence of one sinner than in the deliverance of all the righteous." Or something to that effect.

Now we just have to get you into open water races as well.

-LBJ


Leonard:

I thought the topic of religion was taboo on this forum. :rofl:

Plus, if I really quit the law altogether, I won't be able to buy expensive fastskins or give free advice to my master swimmer friends or pay the outrageous USS fees for my kids' coaches. Plus, Terry couldn't call me "counselor." :D

I said it before, I put my toe in that blue stuff occasionally. :agree: Apparently not nearly as much as you and Donna and Batman and the other distance junkies here.

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 11:05 AM
But not this weekend. This weekend I am going to the Tom Dolan meet at GMU where I will watch some amazing age groupers and a couple masters swimmers. (Go Wally!!! :woot: ) Last year, Kate Zeigler broke Janet Evan's record in, I think, the 800 free at this meet. I will be watching to see who has the best technique and enjoying the close races. I will even get to watch my flying/breaststroking/IM-ing daughter in action and I don't have to officiate! So I will not have a lot of time to be posting this weekend. I need a rest.:D.

Fortress, I hope your daughter beats the pants off you in the 50 fly.:lolup:

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 11:06 AM
I believe there is a verse in the Christian bible to the effect that "Heaven shall rejoice more at the repentence of one sinner than in the deliverance of all the righteous." Or something to that effect.

Now we just have to get you into open water races as well.

-LBJ

LBJ: You're pretty good at swooping in like Batman too.

The Fortress
December 8th, 2006, 11:09 AM
Fortress, I hope your daughter beats the pants off you in the 50 fly.:lolup:

She has informed me, not so civily, that she will. But she ain't got me in backstroke yet Batman. :rofl:

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 11:11 AM
She has informed me, not so civily, that she will. But she ain't got me in backstroke yet Batman. :rofl:

I see that almost no one has got you in the 50 back Fortress, but I think there are a few of us who will be kicking your butt in the pretty blue stuff ... and in breaststroke (not me of course).

The Fortress
December 8th, 2006, 11:27 AM
LBJ: You're pretty good at swooping in like Batman too.

But LBJ is way too nice to steal your cape Batman. :rofl:

LindsayNB
December 8th, 2006, 12:47 PM
After all that has been written, believe it or not, I still have questions about the use of TI. And please correct me if I am wrong:

TI swimmers swim more low in the water, or downhill

TI swimmers do not endorse swim aids

TI swimmers do not utilize high-intensity training


I believe the final point is incorrect. My impression is that a TI coach probably would not advocate high-intensity training for a raw beginner, but Terry's posts here seem to advocate a lot of race pace work, for distances that you can hold form for, once you have ingrained your technique. Indeed he has talked about approaching demanding sets and working on ways to maintain form as he approaches his limits.

On the first point, I have seen swimmers that swam very low in the water competing at the international level as well as people who swim quite high in the water, this leads me to believe that this is a matter of style rather than one approach or the other being "correct".

Lastly, I think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to give advice that applies to everyone, from raw beginner to international competitor, and that it is too easy to take advice that a coach gives one swimmer in one context and criticize that advice as not applying to another swimmer in another context. It makes perfect sense to tell a raw beginner to concentrate on technique while telling an accomplished competitor that they need to work on race pace work.

I do think that it is unfortunate that there are a lot of swimmers out there who are doing nothing but "super-slow" swimming that think they are following TI principles. I don't know what the solution to that is.

Again, just my :2cents:

gull
December 8th, 2006, 12:56 PM
Lastly, I think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to give advice that applies to everyone...

Apparently not.

LindsayNB
December 8th, 2006, 04:12 PM
Apparently not.

:D

Zing! Good one.

Peter Cruise
December 8th, 2006, 05:20 PM
Good gracious! I go away for awhile and the slings and arrows come out.
Leslie, if I needed a lawyer, I'd hire you (unless you get corrupted by LBJ and take up racewalking). I would like someday to meet everyone in these forums in person and I bet that we would get along famously face to face where you get immediate feedback via body language, facial reactions in a discussion to possible excesses in use of the language. In the forums, via the typed word, it is all too easy (I am as prone as anyone) to admire one's own well-turned zinger and fire it off, then realize that you have napalm in trying to illuminate your point, rather than Diogene's lantern.

KaizenSwimmer
December 8th, 2006, 05:25 PM
after we had explicitly agreed otherwise, that shoulder injuries are caused mainly by technique. It is indisputable that there are many other causes.

I've stipulated the latter numerous times. I continue to maintain that the prima facie cause is unsound movements (i.e. technique). Thus far no swimming orthopedists (i.e. those who are or were swimmers) with whom I have discussed it -- possibly as many as 20 -- have disagreed.


The world is not, however, better off with misplaced arrogance.
Strong conviction can sometimes be seen that way by others. I'm deeply dismayed by what I see happening to too many swimmers. It would not be overstating things to say that "Swimming eats its young."

Not just the injuries but the staggering burnout/turnoff rate. How many good swimmers of yore are running or playing golf today because they can't conceive of swimming as fulfilling, enjoyable, interesting? Until very recently only two of the 50+ guys I swam with in college were doing Masters swimming. In the last few years, as they entered their 50s, a few more have semi-reluctantly returned to the pool as their knees break down or mortality tugs on their sleeve. Since swimming is what we all did best in our youth, why would we not continue doing it as our primary exercise in adulthood, particularly as nothing else can match it for promoting overall well-being?

That's why my other mission is to show ways of making swim training more thoughtful, creative and focused -- and improving performance at the same time.


As to the issue of weights, well, as GoodSmith observed in another thread, there were a lot of buff men in the sprint lanes at Worlds. I found that as well on the female side.

I do dryland training and advocate it as well. Not just for performance but because the American College of Sports Medicine advocates twice-weekly resistance training for health, and so I can shovel the driveway without paying for it the next day.

However, I'm also mindful that elite swimmers are often found to be weaker than many of their peers in power tests. Michael Phelps and Natalie Coughlin were both the weakest members of their teams in the weight room. I'll bet this is also true internationally. The finalists in the Mens 100M Free in (I believe) the 92 Olympic Trials, as a group, showed 20% lower stroking power than the non-finalists in a study I read some 10 years ago. That really got my attention.

That's why I emphasize finesse far more than power in training and believe that the most functional stroking power comes from synchronization not hypertrophy or max effort. Water, as a medium, simply doesn't offer the opportunity to exert max power. It's a highly unstable platform (how much weight can you lift standing on one leg vs. both, or on a Swiss ball vs a bench) and at a certain force level all you do is create turbulence.

KaizenSwimmer
December 8th, 2006, 05:41 PM
They just don't want to be told that their shoulder injuries can only and inevitably be caused by awful technique or that TI is the only way to swim fast.

Check the record - anywhere. I've never, ever, claimed the latter. Not surprisingly though I'll always advocate for what I believe and not advocate for something I don't.

And we advocate nothing that we have not already tested -- first in my own swimming and teaching, and then with, usually, a dozen or more TI coaches and hundreds of swimmers.

But my books consciously include the message: "This is what we've been studying and testing. This is what we have learned from those tests. Give it a try if you think it makes sense, and please give us feedback either way."

If you check posts I've made here suggesting drills or focal points I think you'll see that I asked for feedback, after a trial, in virtually every instance. I'm interested in real world experience...which is why I have resisted seeing TI labeled as a "theory." TI is, more than anything, a problem-solving and rigorous testing culture, not inclined to theorizing.

And I think the pushback we get from some in the mainstream swimming culture is, more broadly, because the results of these tests we do often suggest that a good number of the sacred cows of traditional swimming beliefs might be hamburger.

okoban
December 8th, 2006, 05:42 PM
I used to swim freestyle with a technique I learned in 70s. Then I started reading and applying Terry's and Hines's books 8-9 years ago. I worked hard about this technique over nearly 6 months and I managed to change my technique (or I think I did, because I am self-coached and there is noone teaching this technique in İstanbul). I can say that my stroke count decreased from 20-21 to 15-16 per 25 m. I am so happy with it. I had no injuries although I did a few dryland exercises. But when it comes to speed, ...... :help: . No improvement. OK, my swimming golf result is far better than before and my friends love my strokes, but in swimming races, they don't care about swimming golf score. I am happy with my new technique, but speed speed speed.:dunno:

bud
December 8th, 2006, 06:24 PM
My theory on swimming is pretty much just this: If it feels good, do it.

I’ve never used props (except to give them a try), and almost never do drills, kick sets, etc.

I mostly pay attention to how I feel moving through the water.

I’ve never been coached except to get some pointers now and again.

My theory has always been to concentrate on technique, and speed will follow.

I’ve never been the fastest fish in the pond (but I have been fastest in a few puddles).

While conditioning is important in swimming, it is mostly mental (... as is just about everything else).

I look and feel great. I get plenty of compliments on my swimming form.

I saw my rheumatologist just yesterday and he said if it were not for my swimming practice I could very well be in a wheelchair now. So while I rarely beat anyone at the USMS meets I’ve attended, I have beat a few, so I’m pretty confident you’d be hard pressed to find anyone with a health condition similar to mine that could beat me. But I’m not nearly as concerned with speed as I am with staying healthy, mobile, and injury free.

I recently tried to increase my practice (over a period of several months) to 2400yds in about 1.5hrs., 5x/wk (M-F). It was too much, so I’m back to about 1700 in 1hr., 3-5x/wk (generally every other day). I basically do 3 sets of 300IM (back, breast, free), with two of those followed by 6x50 kick/fly (dolphin kick on back out, fly back). I throw in a few other 50’s here and there of this and that. I’ve always practiced in a SCY pool (simply because that is what was there).

I generally don't watch the clock except to see when I start and end my practice for the distance covered. I rest until I’ve caught my breath, and am confident I can take off again w/o risking an injury. I’m extremely goal oriented, and always try to push myself, while still remaining kind to myself.

I have a lot of study and practice experience in Yoga as well. I’m amazed at the number of similarities between the two.

Are my ideas right for everyone? I hardly think so. But I firmly believe anyone could reach very close to their own personal top potential using my “theories”. (The amount of effort it takes to go from being really good to being the best just does not seem worth it to me.)

So I say:
Be patient. Pay attention to how you feel going through the water. Listen, watch, and talk to others (the web has been fantastic for these). And last, but certainly not least, have fun with it!

KaizenSwimmer
December 8th, 2006, 06:37 PM
please correct me if I am wrong:

TI swimmers swim more low in the water, or downhill

TI swimmers do not endorse swim aids

TI swimmers do not utilize high-intensity training

Would TI technique methods help me with my upcoming 18 mile swim? Can small adjustments be made since I only have about a year & half to the swim?

Body Position. High or low isn't something we have control over. Hydroplaning doesn't occur until a vessel reaches approx 33mph. Max human swimming speed is approx 5mph.
When you see a sprinter who appears to be swimming "high on the water" (i.e. back mostly visible) you are really seeing a deep bow wave being cut, which requires the expenditure of unsustainable amounts of energy. Attempting to swim "high on the water" is a waste of precious energy which will mainly result in movements that fight the body's natural tendency to sink, more than moving you forward.
The body's natural tendency to sink is a physical fact. Human body composition results in the body coming to rest with only 5% of body mass above the surface -- this is typical, not those with greater than average specific gravity.
Added to this is how our body composition is distributed. The only part of the body with natural buoyancy is the chest cavity. The force of buoyancy pushes up at the chest while gravity pulls down at your hips. Thus an "uphill" position will be natural unless you take conscious steps to counter that. That uphill position not only adds significant frontal resistance. In a less-skilled and less confident swimmer it's often interpreted by the brain as a threat to one's well-being, resulting in "survival stroking" which, over time, becomes imprinted as a habit.
Why? Because when they get tired after one lap, as they will, they become convinced they need to "get in shape," which means laps. They'd be better off learning to displace water cleverly through balance drills.

And as a side point, EVF -- and many other skills - are out of reach until you master balance, because your arms are too busy "bracing" (fingers up, elbow down) to do anything else.

Swim Aids Far too large a topic to cover briefly. Suffice to say we think most are poorly conceived (though exceptionally well marketed), don't actually do what they're advertised to do, and are used to substitute for real thoughtfulness and creativity in attempting to add "variety" to workouts. I think there's an essential experience one has when truly in tune with the water ("feel of the water") and that training aids "contaminate" that experience.
ONE example. Many swimmers love using buoys because it's easier to swim with them and they can go faster easier. Pulling sets are supposed to strengthen the arms, but in fact putting on a buoy underloads the stroke by raising the hips. Once you really learn balance wearing a buoy feels awful. It raises your hips to an unnatural position and inhibits natural rotation -- both long and short axis.

High Intensity Training We believe strongly in its value for swimmers with appropriate goals. Not for triathletes for instance since the most advantageous thing most can do (excepting the podium-aspirant in a draft-legal Olympic distance race) is exit the water with a very low HR. That being the case, training to be able to swim as fast as possible with a LOW HR is the best use of their time.

But I don't believe in training whose sole focus is to endure discomfort or "buffer lactates." Too often the result of "lactate tolerance sets" is the practice of progressive inefficiency. Which means the muscles for ragged swimming are the ones getting trained to buffer lactates and metabolize energy.

When training the sprinters at West Point our primary training discipline was the highest possible level of efficiency at all effort levels. We did an amount of low speed training you would likely not believe in order to imprint much higher efficiency levels than prevailed when I began coaching there. Over time, through much experimentation, we identified an optimal "racing SPL for each swimmer." Joe Novak's racing SPL for 100 yards was 12. We "saved" that SPL for races and did all training at SPL's below that level, sometimes WAY below that level as a way of forcing them to learn to wring out every millisecond of possible speed from a low SPL (and a low HR) before progressing to a higher one.

(I got this idea after reading -- in 1994 -- of how Touretski required Popov to train much of the time at 24 SPL LCM in order to be able to race easily at 33SPL in the 50LCM -- a stroke count 10% lower than Biondi who had previously been thought the world paragon for efficiency.)

Joe Novak, for instance, routinely did sets of 100 yd Free repeats at 24-28 strokes (i.e. 6 to 7 SPL). He even did a set with Fistgloves at 28 strokes, averaging 1:01.

As an illustration of how we did the higher intensity stuff, every Tuesday it was a long standing West Point tradition to do 5 x 100 dive start and record and post the times. In the sprint group, I gave each swimmer a maximum stroke "allowance" (48 to 56 total in most cases) and a maximum split differential of .5 second. Only those 100s within those parameters would count toward the tally. They couldn't do dive starts until they could meet the parameters from a pushoff.

The first week we did that set, their times were pitiful because they hadn't figured out how to solve the "puzzle" of swimming fast that way. Each week they got better.

By later in the season they were swimming these sets at rather fast times. And when they did, they were probably "buffering lactates" etc. during those repeats. All that energy training stuff is mainly incidental to me. What I'm interested in is whether my swimmers are emulating the physical behaviors I've observed in the world's best swimmers - fluent, efficient esthetically pleasing movement at high speed, and great pace control. If I see that happen, I presume the conditioning necessary to swim the race well is also "happening."

I think that sums up the TI difference. Mainstream approaches to training prioritize energy system considerations and movement quality is often incidental.

We are unswervingly disciplined in training movement quality -- I really want every swimmer I coach to look like (as much as possible) Phelps, Thorpe, Beard, Hansen, Coughlin, Kitajima, etc. etc.
And considerations of repeat distance, work:rest ratio, speed, HR, overall volume, etc. are driven by their esthetic development.

Having said that much I should add that because my swimmers -- and myself -- are not as talented as those we are emulating, I even set higher standards for our movement quality.

I often hear it said that, for instance Ian Thorpe shows a bit of asymmetry in his stroke -- more FQS overlap on his non-breathing side than on his breathing side. I don't look at that and think "I ought to be asymmetrical too." I think I can't get away with things he may get away with.

These answers are probably far longer than you were looking for. The new book is 15 bucks. Not a bad investment to satisfy deeper curiosity.

Allen Stark
December 8th, 2006, 07:09 PM
I agree with Terry that swimming eats it's young. High volume is good for the people it's good for,the others get out. Notice that Rowdy Gaines is one of the few Olympic Champions swimming Masters. I wonder if that's because he started swimming late and so didn't burn out. Gary Hall Jr.wrote an interesting article(quoted elsewhere in this Forum) about how swimming doesn't have to be a one size fits all sport. In track,if you had someone who was a natural shotputter,would you say"great,we will work on your shotput as soon as you warm up with a 10 mi. run and then do 880s on the 2:00 for an hour first. That's what too many swim coaches do,IMHO

islandsox
December 8th, 2006, 09:03 PM
Okay, that's it.

Swimming high or low IS something that we have control over; maybe you can't do it so you convince others it is a waste of time. And hydroplaning does occur under speeds of 33mph. You are not telling the entire story here. A vessel has to be defined first for its length, width, height, volume, displacement and weight. You are completely categorizing because you think no one is listening closely enough. Swimming high on the water is not a waste of energy; it moves you forward faster than the TI method. You know this and you won't fess up. And let's suppose you are right about the extra energy thing here it takes to swim high on the water, are you saying your swimmers are not strong enough to swim on top of the water? I would suggest you train your swimmers to be stronger. Instead, are you putting thoughts into them that these things are not necessary? I think everyone would disagree with this including Michael Phelps.

And the experiments you run only give you the results you want to put in your book to make money and not in an honest way. And the human body composition rests with not 5%, but 19%. Who are you talking to? Yourself?

Now, I may give you some leadway on the swim aids, but I know for a fact that short Zoomer fins increased my leg strength for backstroke. And pull buoys do have a purpose for many. Maybe the problem is you have found no benefit from these things so you dispell them to everyone. But since you are against them, it would be of little value to even tell you why I think they are important. But just because you have never had any success with swim aids, doesn't mean they are without benefit. Give your swimmers options, Terry, not just what you think based on the fact that you could not make them successful for you. I have body balance with or without a buoy; most of the swimmers I know do also. You are speaking as if no one is an experienced swimmer and they are so much of a stepford-wife that they just go along with what you say.

Somebody is giving you really bad information.

The EVF thing is another problem I have. I also have a huge problem with the high intensity training. You are totally misleading people about these things because, for some reason, you couldn't do it yourself. This is the only thing I can think of as to why you would not encourage these two other things.

You can speak of West Point and the Army, and Novak, and whomever else you want to name-drop. But what I am listening to is what you are telling people now and you are misleading them. Stroke technique is crucial, but so is high-intensity training and some of the swim aids help with the inner-body training we all need. But if you want to swim slow, go for it.

I am really sorry that you have not been successful in your swimming career and I think because of this, you are trying to invent a revolutionary new way of swimming to get the pats on the back. You know, the something new thing.

And, you almost had me in your corner until you started quoting things that are absolutely untrue but figments of your imagination to be "different" and to try to sell it as so. Now, I totally disagree with you. But this will mean nothing to you because I am that "clydesdale" with no merit. Ha!

I'm done here. Your ego supersedes your talent.

The Clydesdale from Honduras

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 09:07 PM
Why don't don't you let someone else have the last word just one little time?.

Terry: I guess you just couldn't do it. What a shame. And I thought I gave you some constuctive advice....

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 09:10 PM
I do dryland training and advocate it as well. Not just for performance but because the American College of Sports Medicine advocates twice-weekly resistance training for health, and so I can shovel the driveway without paying for it the next day.

I do weights so I can look great and get hot chicks. Glad you're saving money on that driveway.

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 09:21 PM
And I think the pushback we get from some in the mainstream swimming culture is, more broadly, because the results of these tests we do often suggest that a good number of the sacred cows of traditional swimming beliefs might be hamburger.

As usual, your post did not address a key point I tried to make. It made a cheap shot and then proceeded to expound on your own theories ... again. (Sorry Linday, I like to hear theories too, but I also would like a responsive comment.) One thing I said was that you were dismissing world class masters swimmers and former Olympians. I said you should perhaps consider their results and, given those results, possibly think that what they said might make some sense. Or you could add them to you "study and analysis" material. This post just called Beth and her coach "hamburger." Since you disagree with the Fortress on shoulders and weights, I guess she is "hamburger" too. They women are not slackers. Fortress even said that she's doing TI training.

As EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS THREAD HAS SAID technique is extremely important and our kids should grow up with that emphasis. So why are you attacking them and calling them "hamburger" if they tweek your theory a bit, adapt it to their individual needs and suggest that maybe its OK to life weights or kick sometimes. Your last post was to long for me to read, but it looks like maybe Islandsox did....

Like I said before, "It's My Way Or The Highway" belongs on a ipod.

Rob Copeland
December 8th, 2006, 10:03 PM
Okay, that's it.
I agree these personal attacks against another member and coaching techniques are not appropriate for this forum. If you have a problem with another forum member, please use private messages or email.