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Caped Crusader
December 7th, 2006, 01:46 PM
In running, front running is a perfectly acceptable racing tactic. It could actually be utilizing a strength. Is it the same in swimming? It seems like I've read a lot about negative splitting and pacing. Does anyone here front run? (I think I've seen Kate Zeigler employ that strategy ...) Do we have to commit to hurt or is it better to commit to pace? (Sorry if that sounded like a Sex & The City question.)

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 02:28 PM
In running, front running is a perfectly acceptable racing tactic. It could actually be utilizing a strength. Is it the same in swimming? It seems like I've read a lot about negative splitting and pacing. Does anyone here front run? (I think I've seen Kate Zeigler employ that strategy ...) Do we have to commit to hurt or is it better to commit to pace? (Sorry if that sounded like a Sex & The City question.)

Very sexy, some guy. Why don't you have a new name yet? I think you must be speaking of long distance swimming, which I do not partake in, although I agree that Coe, Clark, Bayi, Prefontaine & company were front runners.

In my IMs, I commit to hurt. I always go out as fast as possible because I don't want to let those breaststrokers catch me. It's my only chance.

Frank Thompson
December 7th, 2006, 02:55 PM
I think it depends on the swimmer, the experience level, sprinting speed event vs distance endurance event, and the ability of a swimmer to incorporate race strategy and change the tactics of that strategy as the race dictates. Janet Evans in the distance free events had some of the greatest race strategies swimming the 400, 800, and 1500 Free. Basically if I recall the old 400 Free World Record of 4:03.85 was split 2:02 and high 1:01 for a negative split. The 800 Free Record of 8:16.22 was split evenly at 4:08 each way. I believe that most successful distance swimmers swim like this where as most sprinters amost never negative split.

There is ususally a drop off rate in races of 50, 100, and 200 distances. Ernie Maglischo made reference to this in his 3 excellent books that have been published in the last 25 years in Swimming Faster, Swimming Even Faster, and the newest Swimming Fastest. In each of those books he discussed the splits, race tactics, and strategies of the best American and World Swimmers of the time. A lot of the swimmers drop off rates were similar but depending on the event, stroke, and distance could be very different.

Also a lot of psychlogical things can happen effecting race strategy and tactics in a race. Some swimmers race an opponent and some race the clock and that could be a difference if they are a front runner or a back half racer.

FlyQueen
December 7th, 2006, 03:04 PM
I think it depends on the swimmer, the experience level, sprinting speed event vs distance endurance event, and the ability of a swimmer to incorporate race strategy and change the tactics of that strategy as the race dictates. Janet Evans in the distance free events had some of the greatest race strategies swimming the 400, 800, and 1500 Free. Basically if I recall the old 400 Free World Record of 4:03.85 was split 2:02 and high 1:01 for a negative split. The 800 Free Record of 8:16.22 was split evenly at 4:08 each way. I believe that most successful distance swimmers swim like this where as most sprinters amost never negative split.

There is ususally a drop off rate in races of 50, 100, and 200 distances. Ernie Maglischo made reference to this in his 3 excellent books that have been published in the last 25 years in Swimming Faster, Swimming Even Faster, and the newest Swimming Fastest. In each of those books he discussed the splits, race tactics, and strategies of the best American and World Swimmers of the time. A lot of the swimmers drop off rates were similar but depending on the event, stroke, and distance could be very different.

Also a lot of psychlogical things can happen effecting race strategy and tactics in a race. Some swimmers race an opponent and some race the clock and that could be a difference if they are a front runner or a back half racer.

I think it depends on the swimmer too. I think Chris Thompson said he tried positive spliting, even spliting, and negative spliting through out his career. All have pros and cons. I'm a sprinter so I go out hard and die ... sometimes I recover enough to have a final surge, but I don't swim distance except in practice. OR when sufficiently bribed.

Kate Zeigler is obviously in phenomenal shape. I tend to think to be able to go out like she does you have to be in riddiculous shape. Try positive splitting long sets in workout and see how you feel ...

Edited to add: You should/will hurt some in every and any race if you do it right, you should be able to get out of the pool, and certainly should not push yourself so hard you cause yourself a heartattack or anything similar but you should be out of breath and have some burn ...

islandsox
December 7th, 2006, 03:26 PM
This is another great topic for thought and discussion. A swimmer who trains with race-pacing and/or negative splitting, usually can accomplish it in a race because they have conditioned their bodies to achieve this.

Even though I always took the 400 or 800 out pretty hard, my next 100 always fell off and I think it also has to do with the advantage of the start from the blocks. So, the 2nd 100 became my baseline and normally I could maintain the race-pace and on many occasions, would negative split the remaining 100s.

And, it is thrilling to do this when your overall time for that swim becomes your new personal best.

But I don't think I will be able to negative split each mile of the 18 mile swim coming up in a year or so; I think completion is my goal :rofl:.

Donna

FlyQueen
December 7th, 2006, 04:06 PM
This is another great topic for thought and discussion. A swimmer who trains with race-pacing and/or negative splitting, usually can accomplish it in a race because they have conditioned their bodies to achieve this.

Even though I always took the 400 or 800 out pretty hard, my next 100 always fell off and I think it also has to do with the advantage of the start from the blocks. So, the 2nd 100 became my baseline and normally I could maintain the race-pace and on many occasions, would negative split the remaining 100s.

And, it is thrilling to do this when your overall time for that swim becomes your new personal best.

But I don't think I will be able to negative split each mile of the 18 mile swim coming up in a year or so; I think completion is my goal :rofl:.

Donna


I'd say finishing would be the goal ... 18 miles is SUPER impressive. I won't even do the 500 ... so hats off to you ..:notworthy: :applaud: :bow:

okoban
December 7th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Some guy, hi. I think you like both running and swimming. So do I.
I think you can do the negative splitting in swimming too (theoretically).
In runnung you can/ in swimming you cannot
see all of your opponents throughout the race
touch them, hear their breath
feel they are exhausted or not
do team tactics (even tricks)
change your pace dramatically
so, in swimming the best swimmer (nearly) always gets the gold.
justice for all swimmers!!!

rtodd
December 7th, 2006, 04:19 PM
If you are racing to win, another factor is knowing the field. When you know how your competitors pace, you can react to it.

If you are racing for a record (or PB in my case), you have to swim within yourself and know your pace. This is where time trials are important in practice.

islandsox
December 7th, 2006, 04:24 PM
Thank you, Heather, but I certainly hope that at about mile number 10, I dont ask myself this question:

WHAT WAS I THINKING? or constantly asking people, ARE WE THERE YET?

In all seriousness, I will be more than able to swim 14 miles straight before this swim takes place. I have already started. I am consistently doing 3 miles every other day right now to get used to 3 miles; then will add on a mile a month.

And, anyone can truly do distance; it is just a different training and outlook and not being in a great hurry to see progress. Patience may be the right word.

Donna

FlyQueen
December 7th, 2006, 04:41 PM
The race itself isn't the hard part, it's the training. I ran a marathon about 6 years ago, absolutely pathetic time (I blame all my fast twitch muscles). I just have loads and loads of respect for anyone who would chose to swim 18 miles straight ... Keep us updated on the training and watch out for sharks!

The Fortress
December 7th, 2006, 06:28 PM
The race itself isn't the hard part, it's the training. I ran a marathon about 6 years ago, absolutely pathetic time (I blame all my fast twitch muscles). I just have loads and loads of respect for anyone who would chose to swim 18 miles straight ... Keep us updated on the training and watch out for sharks!

Now, you are creeping me out. (Beth creeped me out earlier when I found we were almost the same age, had "anatomical problems" with our shoulders and similar fly times.) I did that marathon thing for awhile too. I refer to my running as "LSD" running. But I still love it. Maybe its good for short sprinter ex-gymnasts/flyers to give their fast twitch muscles a rest by running slowly.

Donna is a true (S)he-Man for attempting this marathon swim. :banana:

poolraat
December 7th, 2006, 06:59 PM
In my IMs, I commit to hurt. I always go out as fast as possible because I don't want to let those breaststrokers catch me. It's my only chance.

I had to chuckle when I read this because it sounded just like my son just before he did the 400 IM in his last meet.

FlyQueen
December 8th, 2006, 09:14 AM
Now, you are creeping me out. (Beth creeped me out earlier when I found we were almost the same age, had "anatomical problems" with our shoulders and similar fly times.) I did that marathon thing for awhile too. I refer to my running as "LSD" running. But I still love it. Maybe its good for short sprinter ex-gymnasts/flyers to give their fast twitch muscles a rest by running slowly.

Donna is a true (S)he-Man for attempting this marathon swim. :banana:



hahah ... I haven't even mentioned my shoulder issues either ... (which sadly I do actually have) ....

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 09:21 AM
From what I've read, they're probably due to technique.:rofl:

Caped Crusader
December 8th, 2006, 09:23 AM
Swimming Fastest. In each of those books he discussed the splits, race tactics, and strategies of the best American and World Swimmers of the time. A lot of the swimmers drop off rates were similar but depending on the event, stroke, and distance could be very different. .

I'm racing my opponent. But thanks Frank. I'm putting this book on my Christmas list.