PDA

View Full Version : T30



Ion Beza
October 29th, 2002, 08:14 PM
I am notorious in my own book for producing workout times that are sometimes -not always, but frequently- faster than my competition times, no matter the tapering for competition.

Today was such an example.
One and a half months ago, I switched to a new Masters program, and today without tapering it was asked of us to do a T30 in a 50 meters pool, meaning swimming the maximum distance one can cover during 30 minutes.

I went a faster split at 800 meters than my tapered 800 meters swam in competition in Cleveland two months ago.
Today at the 800 meters mark I split 11:31.
In Cleveland it was 11:45.xx.

My distance covered today was 2,040 meter in 30 minutes, for an average of 1:28.23 per 100 meters.
In Cleveland, my 11:45.xx over the smaller 800 meters, is an average of 1:28.13, barely faster than the one during today's T30.

The fastest swimmer in the workout today, was in my lane, swimming 2,450 meters, for an average of 1:13.06 per 100 meters.

Last December, in the Masters program where I was then, in a 50 meter pool again, I swam 16 x 100 meters leaving every 1:25, so I started hoping to succeed a sub 11:00 in 800 meters in August 2002 in Cleveland.

I guess doing lots of quality swims so that the body remembers at least one of them during competition, leading a peace of mind life allowing for these swims, and tapering well -including carying a feel good sentiment into competition-, they are part of a fragile balance to achieve, and to maintain:
it is 'getting into the zone'.

Fisch
October 29th, 2002, 08:48 PM
At the risk of sounding like an idiot,
"ya gotta swim fast to swim fast".

Phil Arcuni
October 29th, 2002, 09:04 PM
Hi Ion,

I suspect you draft during your workouts, even if not intentionally. That fast swimmer in your lane passed you 4 times, if you hung at his feet for 25 m, that totals 100 m of drafting off of a fast swimmer, and will certainly improve your average time. Why don't you swim a T30 in a lane where you are the fastest swimmer and see if you get different results. My experience is that people get out of the way pretty easily and won't slow you down.

Otherwise, you need to work on your mental preparation. I read a quote by a famous swimming coach who said that if a swimmer did not go faster with a taper the cause was mental. You've asserted several times that you have done a proper taper, so I believe you.

I am the opposite extreme as you - if I take 10% off of my workout times (tapered, lots of rest, etc.) I get pretty close to my meet times. That's despite the fact that I hurt much more after the workout swim than the meet swim.

Ion Beza
October 29th, 2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Phil Arcuni
Hi Ion,

I suspect you draft during your workouts, even if not intentionally. That fast swimmer in your lane passed you 4 times, if you hung at his feet for 25 m, that totals 100 m of drafting off of a fast swimmer, and will certainly improve your average time. Why don't you swim a T30 in a lane where you are the fastest swimmer and see if you get different results. My experience is that people get out of the way pretty easily and won't slow you down.
...

I did draft today, off him.
Not as much as 25 meters, less than 20 meters each time he passed me.
Also by the time of my 800 meters, he passed me only once -and inching closer for passing me a second time-, for a drafting distance - that I got off his start and off his lapping me once- of about 35 meters total.
In the lane next to mine, people were undisciplined, jumping in and out of the T30. I didn't want to start it there.

Less than two months before Cleveland, I swam untapered a 300 meter Long Course in the midst of an workout, no drafting -as I was leading the set-, in 3:57, a 1:19 pace per 100 meters, and an untapered 600 meter Long Course in the midst of another workout, starting 10 seconds behind a fast swimmer who took off quickly and didn't lap me -so I didn't draft off him- in 8:27, a 1:24.9x pace per 100 meters.

Tapering well shoud ensure a faster pace in the 800 than in my workout 600.

cinc3100
October 29th, 2002, 11:48 PM
Ion, some swimmers are like that they sometimes do better in workouts. Anyway, I remember when I was using paddles in practice when I was 16 years old. I did 200 meter freestyles under 2:40 and I think the only 200 meter freestyle race I swam in that year I did a 2:42 and I finally swam around a 2:35 or 37 in a 400 meter swim about 2 years later. So, sometimes you do go faster in practice. These days, I don't swim faster in practice.

billwhite
October 30th, 2002, 08:03 AM
Phil,

The advantages of drafting that you pointed out to Ion also apply to the faster swimmer who is approaching and passing a slower swimmer. The only true test would be swimming alone in a lane. I can regularly beat my meet distance times in practice quite easily by swimming with people that I can pass once or twice during a distance set. Example: I swam a 5:40 500free in a meet and two weeks later in practice swam 2 back to back sub 5:30 500's just using the draft. So, don't take too much stock in times you achieve when using the draft unless the swimmers behind you are right on your tail and are never in danger of being passed.

Bill White

jim thornton
October 30th, 2002, 02:34 PM
Note To Bill White,

in an effort to help my teammate bill white reach his full swimming potential, I have decided that from here on out, I will swim right on his feet the whole practice, making sure he thus has no opportunity to draft.

bill, you might also want to mention that pull buoys can provide some assistance to practice times, though I am not sure your 500s were thusly assisted or not.

Tom Ellison
October 31st, 2002, 02:06 AM
Ion:
Keep banging away my friend...you will get the right combination down.
Fisch has a good suggestion… in that...it is essential to work on speed as well as conditioning (my understanding...and mind you...I am not a coach). Keep a balance and I bet your meet times will improve. Lastly, I’ve swam in 4 Nationals and each presented different travel and challenges for my body. Often, swimming at Nations is not a good stopwatch to judge your fastest overall times. Fatigue, unfamiliar food, sleep deprivation and other bits and pieces can negatively impact your performance at Nationals. A few years ago in Michigan where they ran a SUPER MEET, I swam the 1500 LCM free at midnight, or close to it. I was tired before I got in the water and my time reflected my fatigue. I swam 20:26 in the meet...and 20:19 in prep a few weeks before the meet.
Kindest regards,
Tom

Tom Ellison
October 31st, 2002, 02:08 AM
Hey Jim:
Are you sure Bill wasn't using flippers?:)

Paul Smith
October 31st, 2002, 11:12 AM
Ion, sounds like an im pressive work out! I've mentioned this before but will bring it up again, in many respects you must separate what you do in workout from what you do in a meet.

Let me explain (before getting beat up on!), as other posts have mentioned there are often very good workout swimmers who don't perfom all that well and very good meet swimmers that are notorious "slackers" in workouts. Why this is the case can be the subjest of debate on another thread.

The reason I say you need to separate the two has to do with ones "comfort zone". We spend a heck of a lot of time in the pool for training, how much time do you actually spend a year in comparison swimming races (ahh, a challenge for Mr. Arcuni to figure out the math!)?

If you want to improve in meets, you need to swim in a LOT of meets. You happen to be in a location (southern Cal) that happens to have some type of meet going on virtually every weekend. If your not "practicing" racing at these meets and then getting down when you swim poorly at the one or two Nationals you attend each year than you are overlooking the key problem in your preparation.

Best of Luck!

Ion Beza
October 31st, 2002, 12:27 PM
This is in response to Paul.

By my standards, I was a good meet swimmer from 1986 up to 1996.

In 1996 I went in USMS competitions 58.50 and 58.90 in 100 yards free, 2:10.xx and 2:10.xx in 200 yards free, 20:57.xx in 1500 meters free Long Course while not totally pushing myself that day in anticipation of the next day, and the next day 1:04.77 in 100 meters free Long Course.

Articles in www.swiminfo.com often mention that competing too much doesn't allow the body to train, because there is a recovery after each meet, there are efforts to travel in unfamiliar surroundings -like Tom points out-, that put swimmers doing too many races in bad physical shape.

For example in 2001 you told me that you didn't do anything hard for five weeks, prior to the Long Course Nationals.
When I told people here about this, they said five weeks for Long Course Nationals, five weeks for Short Course Nationals, that's already a lot of easy time, off a season.

So I have to find, my best balance between training, racing in and from Southern California which I am still discovering two years after I came to San Diego, tapering and working for a living.
If there were meets once every month within ten miles radius of where I live, so I wouldn't bother to travel to unfamiliar surroundings, I would train and swim through them, and only taper once a year for a big meet.

Yesterday, the coach of the new Masters program I joined, said that I might have to taper on my own, because she has an all purpose (mainly fitness) program to run.

This is an alarm in my book, because I want the coach to be as responsible as I am about tapering results, and tapering for me is a fragile balance to achieve.

Work permitting, I am considering entering the Las Vegas mid-December meet for a 25 meters competition.
I don't guarantee it, though.

Paul Smith
October 31st, 2002, 05:53 PM
Ion, I was a lot faster 10 years ago then I am now and even faster when I was in my 20s. Truth is we both are getting older and making comparisons to times swam years in the past is not really all that relevant.

As for racing to much, I think you said you swam in two meets last year (SC & LC Nationals), if you think that's to much competing I'll refrain from even debating the issue. For me, I need to swim at least two meets before nationals to prepare both mentally and physically. I also do 100% race pace work with dive starts 1-2 times a week durning mid season training.

Last but not least, you keep emphasizing finding the correct coach. I beleive Karlyn Pipes-Nielson & Caroline Krattli both train with SD and they certainly don't seem to have much of an issue with the quality of coaching. Both swam this past weekend at the ASU meet and broke multiple world records without fully resting.

PS: I actually told you that I tapered 3 weeks prior to nationals not 5. Coming from an elevation of 8000ft takes more time to rest for me than sea level (normally I would rest for two weeks).

cinc3100
October 31st, 2002, 07:44 PM
Ion, I think could attend more meets. But this season I notice that the SPMA which is north of him only had two meets listed in short course meters since one was cancelled. In the San Diego area I do not know what is available, But traveling a 100 miles or so does take some planning. I was able to change my days off so I could go up to Tempe on Friday for the short course meters meet during October the 26 and 27 and I took vacation days because I normally work on the weekends. Now Paul may be in a profession that allows him more flexiabity to travel than either Ion or myself. The next meet I'm planning on doing is a local meet in Tucson in February. I understand why my state which is even more spread out with its two population metro areas doesn't have as many meets as California or the some of the metro areas back east do which are closer together and have more people to drawed from. As for speed, I'm swimming times closer to when I was 12 or early 13 years old. And I did better in the 100 meter breastroke than last summer and did swim the 200 meter breastroke for the first time but did slower in the 50 meter breastroke this time. And my 50 meter butterfly is slower than when I was 12 years old. So, age and conditioning in my case as well are definenity factors. I was beaten by even a 83 year old but I beat some of the times of beginning or immediate level 20 and 30 something swimmers.

Phil Arcuni
October 31st, 2002, 08:48 PM
I too find it difficult to attend lots of meets. The time away from my wife and children, and all of the errands and chores that we need to do every weekend, is prohibitive, and not justifiable for a personal and somewhat selfish hobby.

I try to make 2, 3, or 4 local (pacific) meets and one national meet, but may not do that every year. My situation may change after the children leave (if they do!) but that is a few years away . . .

I don't think I really need the meets for sprints or for distance freestyle events - but I find that I could use more experience in the 200 events, especially the 200 fly. I don't like learning how to pace an event in the biggest meet of the year. Also, even in Pacific the number of meets that have 200 fly, back, or breast events is limited.

But to call a taper a rest is a mistake, I think. Sure, the yardage goes down and you get more rest, but the intensity goes up as you train your body for more speed, more sprint, and more lactic-acid toleration in short races. The endurance is pretty much maintained - I have never found that I have lost 'shape' after a taper. I may be tired and have less motivation after an intense meet, but it is not a consequence of the taper itself.

Also, as others have pointed out, you don't taper for every meet if you go to lots. In that case the meet is a high-intensity workout. Also, the performances of track and field athletes, who attend lots of competitions every year, and the solid performances recently in the SCM swim circuit, demonstrate that good quality performances can be done quite often.

Ion Beza
October 31st, 2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Paul Smith
Ion, I was a lot faster 10 years ago then I am now and even faster when I was in my 20s. Truth is we both are getting older ...
...

Exactly.

I asked you August 2001 when you did 1:58.xx in 200 meters free Long Course, what is your lifetime best 200 meters and you didn't know, but I imagine as being maybe 1:50, or 1:51, or 1:52, around and at the time of the 1984 US Olympic Trials.

So, when August 2001 I did 2:34, 7 seconds off my lifetime best, that's on the scale of a similar slow down, even with a better potential for me since in one workout in July 2001, leading in the lane, with no diving, no tapering, no pull buoy, fins or paddles, I did a 2:33, then a 2:34 and another 2:34.

It's just that a slow down from 2:27, is not as good a swim that the same slow down from 1:50.

Hence, my emphasis on training more and stronger than some others, so that I develop further a swimming VO2 Max on top of what I managed to build when beginning to swim well into adulthood.

Originally posted by Paul Smith

...
As for racing to much, I think you said you swam in two meets last year (SC & LC Nationals), if you think that's to much competing I'll refrain from even debating the issue.
...

In 2001 I swam four meets, two small, and Short Course and Long Course Nationals.

In 2002 I swam five meets, three small, and Short Course and Long Course Nationals.

Like Cynthia writes, there are some people who don't travel well, and I am one who hates it, even though as a foreigner in France, in Canada and in US, I traveled a lot to these countries, inside these countries, and to other countries.

Another condition to negotiate with in order for me to sneak a travel, is that my high-tech work is competitive in a nerdy way -unrelated to the hobby of swimming races-, and has a possessive side often requiring overtime during weekends.

One year ago, I remember you were consulting the USMS listings for places to swim, I guess since your work was making you traveling -like going to Los Angeles for a workout under Gerry Rodriguez which I recall-, and it seems to me that you travel well.

Originally posted by Paul Smith

...
I also do 100% race pace work with dive starts 1-2 times a week durning mid season training.
...

That's the kind of coaching I need:
.) race oriented, with 'Race Training' workouts, not only aerobic fitness like my T30 above, but also anaerobic, 'VO2', and 'Sprint Training';
.) tapering under a responsible coach, so that August 2001, I swim faster in competition than a 2:34 for 200 meters free, giving a 2:33 in a regular workout.

Originally posted by Paul Smith

...
Last but not least, you keep emphasizing finding the correct coach. I beleive Karlyn Pipes-Nielson & Caroline Krattli both train with SD and they certainly don't seem to have much of an issue with the quality of coaching. Both swam this past weekend at the ASU meet and broke multiple world records without fully resting.
...

Karlyn Pipes-Nielson trains with a US Swimming club in Coronado, coached by her husband Eric Nielson.
Caroline Krattli trains partly at UCSD were I trained for almost two years, and she trains elsewhere too, I don't know where.

Both have a wealth of experience and development in swimming, from their age-group swimming up until now, and they know what they choose to do in San Diego, better than me.

I came to San Diego two years ago, I don't have an age-group background, and I still discover by trial and error in competitions, what fits me here.

cinc3100
November 1st, 2002, 01:40 AM
I hate to travel too. Its that motel or hotel beds are not that comfortable for one thing. And as a kid being an A and B age group swimmer mean't that I rarely went to a meet more than 60 miles. Even in community college, I didn't have to travel that far since the California Community College league never held a meet more than 75 miles away and the two years I swam in it, there was not a state meet for women until the year after I became ineligble and I didn't have to travel to Northern California for a state meet. And as an adult,the Tempe meet was the first that I spent in a motel since the Newberry Park meet as a 18 year old at the JR Olympics way back in 1975.