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KaizenSwimmer
January 8th, 2007, 05:05 PM
In the August 2006 issue of “Scientific American” an article, The Expert Mind by Philip E. Ross (http://scientificamerican.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=00010347-101C-14C1-8F9E83414B7F4945) studied (http://scientificamerican.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=00010347-101C-14C1-8F9E83414B7F4945) studied) the mental processes of chess masters in order to draw out lessons for expertise or mastery in other fields. Because skill at chess can be easily measured – ranking points establish relative levels of mastery with a high degree of accuracy and consistency -- it has become a popular testing ground for theories on how humans learn cognitive skills.

Researchers have found that chess grandmasters rely on a vast store of knowledge of game positions which they organize in “chunks,” for quick retrieval from long-term memory and use in working memory. To accumulate this archive of functional knowledge, grandmasters typically engage in years of what Ross referred to as “effortful study,” continually seeking challenges that lie just beyond their current ability level. Top performers in music, dance, math and sports appear to gain their expertise via the same process, motivated as much by a desire for self-improvement as by outside competition.

The article’s conclusion was that intrinsic motivation and effortful practice are more important than natural ability for achieving mastery. Ross wrote that it appears to take at least 10 years of intense work to become expert in the areas he studied. He also noted that most people fail to progress beyond “average,” less because of natural shortcomings, than because they lose motivation or become satisfied and stop working at their craft far short of mastery.


Most novices engage in effortful practice at first, which is why beginners so often improve rapidly. But upon reaching a point where gains are more elusive or feeling their achievement level is acceptable– or that they’ve their potential -- most people relax. Their current skill level becomes ever more entrenched and less susceptible to further improvement.

Researchers in several studies have found that the content of practice makes far more difference than the volume. Many enthusiasts spend tens of thousands of hours playing chess, golf or a musical instrument yet remain at a middling level. A small number maintain an inclination to examine, critique and build on what they “know” and steadily bypass their peers.

Some topics for thought:
In light of the 10-year rule, what kind of swimmer might you aspire to be a decade from now?
What will it take to get there?
What will effortful practice look like for you?
What are the obstacles you might face?
Which of these can be eliminated, and which need to be worked around?
Would it help to encourage those you practice with to join you in this effort?

geochuck
January 8th, 2007, 05:10 PM
If I am lucky I will still be around. I don't want to bypass my peers I would like to just be around my peers.

meldyck
January 8th, 2007, 05:23 PM
Terry,

as a coach for a number of master's sports, I would believe the conclusions of the scientific american article. It is particularly true when the discipline is very technical.

However, for myself, I'm not sure 10 years is long enough (I'm probably on the statistical 'tail' of the study). When I started swimming in masters swimming about 15 years ago, I couldn't complete a 500 yard freestyle swim in warmup even though I was swimming 2000-3000 yards per practice. In the intervening years, I took the mechanics of the stroke I wanted to swim apart and started practicing each component separately. Now, after 15 years of effort, I feel like a freestyler (in college I was a breaststroker and that's all I ever swam in practice). I am now routinely making the top ten swims in everythiing I enter and this year for the first time, I made top ten times from two splits in longer distances.

So, I believe it is possible but that most people just don't have the patience. It really used to bug me as a swim coach that no one really wanted to learn how to swim, rather only to get in and pound out the maximum hard yardage possible in the time allotted.

Interesting article indeed.

-- mel

The Fortress
January 8th, 2007, 06:34 PM
The principle obstacle I face to getting sufficient effortful practice is my children, whom I love. So I guess I won't "eliminate" them. 10 years from now, I will only have one 16 year old left at home. So I will have a lot more time and energy to do effortful vessel/engine building. In the interim, when I'm no longer an ogre, I'm going to attempt to avoid retrenchment by focusing on more high intensity/quality workouts, weight lift more and work on my turns/streamlines. I try always to be mindful of my technique.;)

The issue of effortful practice vs. talent was also discussed in the thread "Is talent irrelevant to great success?" http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=6863&page=5&highlight=talent+irrelevant+great+success

nkfrench
January 8th, 2007, 06:37 PM
Based on the last 10 years, I will probably substitute one stroke defect for another.

In the past 10 years I have finally gotten rid of the dropped elbow and switched my timing to front quadrant swimming and a long stretch. But I have slowed my already-slow stroke rate to half what it was.

My stroke count each pool length didn't improve because my kick doesn't sustain forward momentum with the slower turnover and I am not in condition. While I am reaching out and not swimming "short", I now find myself crossing over. I am rolling more rather than swimming flat; since I am shaped like a tugboat and not like a canoe, it causes "wallowing".

I have a 1995 video and it shows me taking 7 seconds less per 25. Part of that is getting older and everything happening s-l-o-w-l-y overall.

I did train myself to tuck my ears into my cap instead of having them stick out Dumbo-style.

Uh, boss on the way, later ;)

Allen Stark
January 8th, 2007, 06:57 PM
In 10 yr I'll be 68,which just like 58 is a lousy age to be in Masters. 69(or 59) you're at the top of your age group and at least you get some sympathy("that was pretty good,next year I bet you really kick butt".) Seriously I feel I have learned so much about breaststroke in the last 5 years I have plenty to work on forever,let alone 10 yr. That's if they don't change the rules again and nobody figures a breakthrough way to swim it faster in which case I'll have even more to work on.

Muppet
January 8th, 2007, 11:00 PM
I would hope that in 10 years I am still swimming.

Should that not be the case, if it is that hockey team I am creating that is preventing me from being in the pool, I probably wouldn't be happier! :) Here's hoping that hockey team recruits a hockey mom first ;)

KaizenSwimmer
January 9th, 2007, 07:14 AM
I feel I have learned so much about breaststroke in the last 5 years I have plenty to work on forever,let alone 10 yr.

In that case you could be said to be halfway through your 10-year program. Or perhaps in a 2nd 10-year program.
Like you, I learned an incredible amount in the last five years. In fact I learned more from 50-55 than in any prior period in my swimming life. With the experiences and perspectives of that in place I've formed a new 5-year plan for 55-60 with a goal of being competitive with the best open water swimmers of my age at the World Championships.

I also have goals of recording at least one personal lifetime best time each year through age 60. To make that more achievable I'm working on all four strokes.

I also resumed practicing yoga after a 3-year layoff. I won't walk away again. For that I do have a 10-year outlook. My goal is to be much more supple at 65 than I was at 55.

And with the benefit of more free time and less work time in the next 10 years I'd like to add sculling and x-c skiing to the Masters events in which I compete. I think they'll both be complementary to swimming. Perhaps I'll give them more time and energy when I'm in the upper half of my age group, bringing my primary focus back to swimming as I enter a new age group.

geochuck
January 9th, 2007, 07:42 AM
10 year plans I had one for my stock portfolio and it worked out pretty well but there were some pretty rough times but it eventially worked out fine. Got rid of the bad ones and got onto some good investments.

The main thing is stick to a plan and be versitile. The same goes for swimming make changes in the plan as you go along for the better.

Lots of 10 year plans out there did a google search brought up 432,000,000 hits.

gull
January 9th, 2007, 10:03 AM
My goal has been to swim faster in my 50s than I have in my 40s. Within the past few months I've overhauled my stroke, and my repeat times in practice continue to improve. This year I want to begin attacking my turns (of which there are 19 in the 500, 39 in the 1000)--never one of my strengths. I don't think I can devote more time to training, but I can increase the intensity.

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 9th, 2007, 04:26 PM
This time almost 10 years ago to this date, I was told that the future looked very dim. I was very ill and I my weight was 176 lbs (I'm 6'6'tall). It had bounced from 207 to 172 at least three times for several years. My doctors told me that they were rather amazed I was doing so well. Then in June I had a colectomy. I swam every day before my operations and I swam even with a stoma and an illeostomy bag hanging from my belly. It was really interesting to look at the expressions on the faces of my fellow swimmers, especially children.

I still take hands-full of medicine every day several times a day, but some how I made it through that. I figure I'll either make it through the next ten years or I won't. Sometimes I really wonder how important worrying about strokes really is? Is it a mere distraction from the serious issues?

Warren
January 9th, 2007, 06:34 PM
I ten years hopefully Im am still swimming. I will be 29 and still in the prime of my career.

KaizenSwimmer
January 10th, 2007, 06:43 AM
Lots of 10 year plans out there did a google search brought up 432,000,000 hits.

The one that matters is yours.

KaizenSwimmer
January 10th, 2007, 06:54 AM
I don't think I can devote more time to training, but I can increase the intensity.

Some good specifics in here. Swimming faster in one's 50s is a challenging, empowering -- and probably for the majority of Masters achievable goal. The most important outcome isn't the times themselves but the experiences you have as a result of setting a galvanizing goal.

Increasing intensity raises several interesting questions.
1) Recovery will be equally important, especially in your 50s. What's the best way to promote restoration?
2) Can you do recovery training in such a way that it benefits your neural patterns as much as your physiology?
3) To what extent might the definition of "intensity" be extended to include concentration, etc.

In my 50s I've been struck by the idea that "mental endurance" can increase even as "physical endurance" may experience age-related declines. And to some extent it may be possible for mental endurance to overcompensate for those declines.

What can we do to increase "mental endurance" at the same time as physiological training is "happening?"

geochuck
January 10th, 2007, 07:02 AM
I have reached the stage in life that I look forward to tommorrow and make my plans one day at a time but do list my goals of things I want to to do. The list is never ending with 20 items on it. I do not quit any goal until it is completed. When that goal is achieved I add one more.

I may work on one goal at a time or may be all twenty in a day. But i never eliminate any until they are completed.

Some of these goals are short term and some are long term but none are set for 10 years from now.

KaizenSwimmer
January 10th, 2007, 07:05 AM
Sometimes I really wonder how important worrying about strokes really is? Is it a mere distraction from the serious issues?

Fair question. Is it?
Or is it possible to use swim goals in such a way that they enhance the more important quality of life issues?

I have a real life-and-health motivation that underlies my swim training. Three of my grandparents and three aunts/uncles died of strokes related to high blood pressure. Since my early 30s I've always been borderline hypertense. I didn't give it overly serious thought until my 50s when I realized I'd already outlived a couple of those relations.

One thing I should have done previously was lose weight, but lacked the necessary discipline -- until I set higher swim goals last year, and realized my chances would be much improved if my strength:weight ratio was improved.

Apart from that it's best for my health if I maintain a high level of motivation to be active every day. My swim goals provide some of that motivation. And the enriched experiences I have as a result of pursuing those goals make the daily journey that much sweeter.

That may not be the case for everyone, but it is for me.

KaizenSwimmer
January 10th, 2007, 07:34 AM
Would it help to encourage those you practice with to join you in this effort?

As I've mentioned numerous times on this forum, Dave Barra and I train together, with a Masters group from Sept through May, and at Lake Minnewaska from June through Sept. While our Masters team is fairly traditional in its approach, Dave and I swap ideas for how to do sets during practice and usually debrief for a few minutes after practice. My swimming and his have improved enormously in the three years since we began doing so.
As Dave's gotten faster, I've been "pulled along" by him in pool sets and by matching strokes in OW training. His performance level has been instrumental in mine.
We're also supporting and encouraging several teammates who've expressed an interest in sharing our "mental space." They're getting faster and more motivated and their improving performance is energizing several lanes. A literal ripple effect - which was taken note of in an exchange on our team's yahoo group last week.

geochuck
January 10th, 2007, 08:22 AM
Sounds a lot like drafting, only in a good way. Helping each other to attain a goal. I think we call this team work the way we helped each other in the swim club when we were kids. Even the worst swimmers (wich I was for a time) benifitted.

The Fortress
January 10th, 2007, 09:27 AM
In my 50s I've been struck by the idea that "mental endurance" can increase even as "physical endurance" may experience age-related declines. And to some extent it may be possible for mental endurance to overcompensate for those declines.

I wonder if this idea is age-based. I think "mental endurance" is something that might ebb and flow during a lifetime. For example, in my 40s, I feel pretty mentally taxed having to balance all the demands of work, home, kids, etc. So swimming is a good distraction and natural prozac for me. But if I spent literally all my time focusing on stroke technique and worrying about improving my meet times, I might find it more mentally exhausting. (My husband thinks I already do too much of this.) I also find meets, although very fun, take a lot of "mental energy" and planning just to get to them. So, I'm wondering if I will have more "mental endurance" 10 years from now. I think I will. Which will be a good thing.

As to George's comment on the 10 year plan, I think it is not a bad idea to live in the moment. One obviously has long term goals/plans in the back of one's mind. But if you are always thinking ahead, you might miss the sweetness of the moment. I have a calendar loaded with plans and events. I still try to take things one day at a time.

I think Craig's point was missed a bit. Obviously, health concerns are far more important than quibbling about stroke mechanics. I thought he was pointing out that, in the grand scheme of life, it's more important just to swim than to always dwell on how to swim.

P.S. I really hope Muppet has some members of his hockey team 10 years from now. :banana:

SwimStud
January 10th, 2007, 11:04 AM
I ten years hopefully Im am still swimming. I will be 29 and still in the prime of my career.

If you're not and there is no medical reason for it.. I'll round up the forum gang and we'll come beat you until you get back in the water... ;)

:dedhorse:

hehe

Don't ask me to plan for 10 years...10 hours is tough enough.

Caped Crusader
January 10th, 2007, 12:29 PM
Many enthusiasts spend tens of thousands of hours playing chess, golf or a musical instrument yet remain at a middling level. A small number maintain an inclination to examine, critique and build on what they “know” and steadily bypass their peers.

I suspect there are some people who don't care as much about mastering their crafts as opposed to being enthuiasts. Maybe they're happier spending hours on something they love and enjoy rather than constantly worrying about improving. Or maybe they spent their youth consumed with improvement and now have a different focus.

I would like to work less in ten years and spend more time swimming, running and on vacation.

KaizenSwimmer
January 11th, 2007, 07:18 AM
worrying about improving.

What a peculiar way to characterize a desire to improve. There seems to have been an implicit criticism in several responses to the notion of "striving," which criticism misses the point.

Those who are less motivated toward continuous improvement probably make up the majority of people who participate in any activity - chess, bridge, piano-playing, swimming. They get pleasure and other benefits from participation. This is well and good.

The article I posted as a discussion starter was a study of those whose pleasure or satisfaction comes more from continuous learning and self-improvement. They're not "worrying" or stressing. They're usually gaining intense enjoyment from the enriched experiences such goals bring.

The most valuable insight from the article was that the general impression that excellence is only for a fortunate few born with advantages the rest of us lack is mistaken.

The human organism is wired to be a powerful learning machine. Exercising our "learning muscles" is always beneficial and those who exhibit a strong tendency to learn-for-life have even been seen to age better than those who lose that desire.

There are certain attitudes and behaviors that have consistently been observed in "overachievers" in a wide variety of fields. Lessons one can draw from them can be applied in any field of endeavor. And the sense of empowerment that can result from such optimism and aspiration is invaluable.

Swimming is only one vehicle for applying these lessons. Since Masters swimmers generally value swimming more than many other activities, would this topic not be of interest?

geochuck
January 11th, 2007, 08:00 AM
Terry when you continually refer to articles written by someone else then proceed to tell us what it means I lose interest in reading.

You have referred us to theories sometimes 50 years old by Councillman, now don't get me wrong he changed swimming but many advances have been made since then. In fact many disregard the so called S stroke.

I really enjoy your writtings. But don't want to read what other people think. I want to hear and read what you think.

Several years ago I read an article in Swim Fit or Fitness Swimmer that you wrote and you motivated me to get back and swim again. Thanks for that Terry.

Everyone here has a reason to swim and none have to pass and follow your directions all of us have the right to express our own opinions.

Caped Crusader
January 11th, 2007, 08:38 AM
There are certain attitudes and behaviors that have consistently been observed in "overachievers" in a wide variety of fields. Lessons one can draw from them can be applied in any field of endeavor. And the sense of empowerment that can result from such optimism and aspiration is invaluable. Swimming is only one vehicle for applying these lessons. Since Masters swimmers generally value swimming more than many other activities, would this topic not be of interest?

I actually liked the article. I consider myself an "overachiever" in many respects. In my youth, I participated in a sport for which I was not "genentically" suited because I loved it. I know that genes and physiology play a large role in success in sports, but I likewise dislike the notion that genetics always wins the day. It's more appealing to believe that mental will can triumph also.

I was just pointing out that there are a million ways to enjoy swimming. It doesn't always have to be done in a "striving" or "mindful" way. Sometimes I swim or run to take my mind off things. Or, I mull over work or family issues while I'm exercising to sort them out. Sometimes that kind of "thinking" is more valuable to me.

The Fortress
January 11th, 2007, 08:48 AM
What a peculiar way to characterize a desire to improve. There seems to have been an implicit criticism in several responses to the notion of "striving," which criticism misses the point.

Since Masters swimmers generally value swimming more than many other activities, would this topic not be of interest?

I think the topic is of interest. Of course. It had an encouraging message. And I agree with the Caped one; as a short sprinter, I hate to think that genes alone are determinative. I generally am always seeking ways to improve, and I am an ogre when I'm thrown off course. So I'd say I'm definitely striving. I just can't do it 24/7 because of other demands in my life. But that may reflect something pointed out in a different thread: the difference between swimming as a profession and swimming done as a passionate hobby. As George points out, people swim for many different reasons and it may or may not be their most valued activity.

geochuck
January 11th, 2007, 09:39 AM
Re the Jeans I prefer Levis over GWG but have found the Kirkland Jeans at Costco are a better fit than the 2 Brand names and cost less. Although Costco Jeans do not have the same genes as the other two they better fit my needs.

Genes have been discussed for years...

Genes - heredity verses enviroment. It was the plot in Trading Places for instance once a thief always a thief.

The will to succeed sometimes out weighs the gene factor.

SwimStud
January 11th, 2007, 10:01 AM
Re the Jeans I prefer Levis over GWG but have found the Kirkland Jeans at Costco are a better fit than the 2 Brand names and cost less. Although Costco Jeans do not have the same genes as the other two they better fit my needs.

Haha George, very droll. Kirkland cashews fit my needs too. :D

And now for something serious...

Although I do love Lombardi's quote: "The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor."

It should be noted he died at 57. Over-working, over-stressing and over-indulging will surely have a negative impact on a life.
You have to be sure that the "pursuit of excellence" is not killing you internally. Balance is the key.

I also feel life is a "smorgasbord" if that's how it's spelt. You're here once, as best I know, taste little of eveything that you know won't harm you. One interest or 15...as long as you are happy to either focus on one or enjoy a smattering of experiences. Neither stance is superior.
It's only an issue if you bemoan not excelling, and you don't focus on one thing, or if you bemoan not enjoying a variety of things but only focus on one. Each to their own.
Nobody has the right to dictate to another about a personal (non-external impacting) life-choice. I am not thinking of, or critiquing anybody here in particular with my statements.

Rich

poolraat
January 11th, 2007, 11:23 AM
Re the Jeans I prefer Levis over GWG but have found the Kirkland Jeans at Costco are a better fit than the 2 Brand names and cost less. Although Costco Jeans do not have the same genes as the other two they better fit my needs.

I prefer Wranglers. There is a saying about Wranglers that I've seen on T-shirts & bumper stickers that I'd share but the censors would probably delete it.

KaizenSwimmer
January 11th, 2007, 11:30 AM
Terry when you continually refer to articles written by someone else then proceed to tell us what it means I lose interest in reading.

Do I continually do that? I'll try to be more aware if this is so, but I believe I've referenced articles perhaps a half dozen times in some 500 posts.

In this instance, the article is about eight pages long and I thought some might get just as much out of a precis of several grafs -- while also providing a link to the original for those interested in going to the original source.

Different strokes as they say. Participation is healthy. Pursuit of goals is healthy. Within reason, organizing your life around such pursuit can also be healthy. Some do that as they age up. It's nice to know that when you make such a decision there are documented behaviors that enhance one's chances of positive outcomes.

knelson
January 11th, 2007, 11:35 AM
Do I continually do that? I'll try to be more aware if this is so, but I believe I've referenced articles perhaps a half dozen times in some 500 posts.

To quote Isaac Newton: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

I see no problems using something written by someone else as a starting point for a discussion. Heck, if that wasn't the case none of us would ever reply to a post :)

The Fortress
January 11th, 2007, 12:28 PM
Do I continually do that? I'll try to be more aware if this is so, but I believe I've referenced articles perhaps a half dozen times in some 500 posts.

Different strokes as they say. Participation is healthy. Pursuit of goals is healthy. Within reason, organizing your life around such pursuit can also be healthy. Some do that as they age up. It's nice to know that when you make such a decision there are documented behaviors that enhance one's chances of positive outcomes.

No, you do not continually do that! I personally enjoy it when people post interesting and thought provoking articles that I might not run across myself. They can be great starting points for discussion or just provide good information. Besides, you did add your thoughts to it.

Not that I want to rush life along, but I am looking forward to having more free time as I "age up." I hope all my body parts stay relatively intact because I would like to be even more, not less, active as I age and do a variety of things, including "striving" in my swimming. I wouldn't mind having more time for yoga and massages as well. :D

This is a little off point, but I had a long discussion this morning with a triathlete. She is attending a TI clinic in Timonium MD this weekend. She is a fairly new swimmer and was over the moon about attending the clinic. She is definitely "striving" to improve her swimming, and I told her that I'm sure the clinic will help her. Her "Team in Training" triathlon group is looking for a TI-type swim coach and she asked if I was interested, :yawn: , because we have talked at length about drills and swimming technique. I have no time of course...

She was a little peeved, however, that lunch wasn't included in her TI clinic, because Timonium is apparently in the middle of nowhere. :rofl: I did tell her to leave her fins at home and prepare for some whole stroke swimming. ;)

I myself typically wear Seven or Citizens of Humanity jeans.


Richjb: I like it when you're philosophical in addition to being funny. Keep it up!

SwimStud
January 11th, 2007, 01:23 PM
Richjb: I like it when you're philosophical in addition to being funny. Keep it up!

Who knew so much could squeeze into a pair of Jammers eh?

nkfrench
January 11th, 2007, 02:56 PM
Although I do love Lombardi's quote: "The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor."

It should be noted he died at 57. Over-working, over-stressing and over-indulging will surely have a negative impact on a life.
You have to be sure that the "pursuit of excellence" is not killing you internally. Balance is the key.


Guess that depends on who decides the "quality of a person's life". Lombardi was "Coach of the Century" and his quotes have inspired countless numbers of people. He died of cancer in 1970. If he took the middle road maybe his life would have been easier but without significance.

geochuck
January 11th, 2007, 02:58 PM
I love documentation. It all depends whether it is complete and true. I should believe in UFOs, lots of documentation there but is it true.

I have a friend who said she was taken away in a space ship, she is one of the most truthful people I know. I accept what she says but it still must happen to me before I actually believe it.

Anyone can write anything but documentation sometimes lies to us. The guys who wrote the article must make money from there story somehow.

I read it they must have an axe to grind.

When I swam in a race accross Lake Ontario in 1964 I was taken from the water and awarded 3rd prize. No one finished the race Abou Heif was awarded 1st prize. After I was pulled from the water I had a dream that I finished 1st and I stood on the podium and collected the $25,000 prize. Was I ever happy.

When I woke up in the hospital and my wife told me everyone had been pulled out, the water was 48 degrees f. and I received third place money I did not believe her at first. When it sunk in I was unhappy that I had not won the $25,000 but glad they paid out money even though no one finished the race. They also gave me a Bulova Accutron watch now that was something I did not expect.

SwimStud
January 11th, 2007, 03:16 PM
Guess that depends on who decides the "quality of a person's life". Lombardi was "Coach of the Century" and his quotes have inspired countless numbers of people. He died of cancer in 1970. If he took the middle road maybe his life would have been easier but without significance.


I hear you Nancy, and you have a very valid point but you know what they say....nobody looks back on their death bed and wishes they spent more time at the office. It's highly likely his premature death and his stress load were connected. Also I would like to think that my Grandfather's average-man 81 years held as equal significance to Lombardi's. He inpired me far more than Vince Lombardi, all due respect.
It's something that can't be truly measured. If you don't like American Football, you probably could care less about Lombardi etc.

I wasn't knocking him or his life achievements. I like the quote. There is nothing wrong with focus and determination, but neither is stopping to smell the roses. I just used it to illustrate that there is a price for everything. For some that price is not worth paying, hence the rest of my post about neither stance being wrong...but preaching that only your stance is right might well be.

I was trying not to pick sides but illustrate that there were two (for the most part) mutually exclusive choices invovled. Apologies if it sounds argumentative, it isn't meant to be. Hope it clarifies it a bit :)

PS Yes I believe iin balance...strive but don't stress. So that bit was my opinon and can be tossed aside.

islandsox
January 11th, 2007, 03:37 PM
This is a pretty good topic. I just wanted some of my friends here to know that I have been off this board because we lost all communications last Saturday and I now have to go stand in line at one internet cafe in order to talk to my family and friends. I am only allowed limited internet use right now.

I truly believe that with my aging (I'll be 69 in 10 years), that I will be even more aware of stroke mechanics than ever before because of the aging process. My goal is for premium health, smooth swimming, and possibly even further distance goals than the long swim that will be done in August of 2008. My question to myself is always this: Why Not?

I will continue in our triathlon here and my goal is either to try to improve my mile swim time each year, or at least match it.

And if all is going well during my 69th year alive, I may actually try to swim from Roatan to mainland Honduras (43 miles). My question to myself again is this? Why not, or at least why not try?

Donna

KaizenSwimmer
January 11th, 2007, 04:58 PM
She is definitely "striving" to improve her swimming, and I told her that I'm sure the clinic will help her.

We tell attendees that developing a passion for swimming will do more to ensure their Continuous Improvement than anything we teach them about stroke mechanics. Her keen anticipation is a good start.

I wear some old pair of jeans. They're in the washing machine at the moment. Maybe Levis?

SwimStud
January 11th, 2007, 06:32 PM
I wear some old pair of jeans. They're in the washing machine at the moment. Maybe Levis?

You can't beat Levi's Terry.

geochuck
January 11th, 2007, 07:53 PM
We tell attendees that developing a passion for swimming will do more to ensure their Continuous Improvement than anything we teach them about stroke mechanics. Her keen anticipation is a good start.

I wear some old pair of jeans. They're in the washing machine at the moment. Maybe Levis?

Terry - When people use caps or initial caps it is like shouting on the internet (Continuos Improvement). But I am not the administrator so I will not push any buttons.

jaegermeister
January 11th, 2007, 10:45 PM
This is a deep, stimulating thread. Thanks, Terry. I'm glad someone has the time to read Scientific American.
Since learning is an emotional process, it would seem that our emotions will drive us either to the analysis that drives improvement and mastery, or to the experience and relationships that are pure enjoyment. I agree that these are not mutually exclusive.

I haven't worn Levi's in decades. I'll have to look for them now.

The Fortress
January 11th, 2007, 11:31 PM
This is a deep, stimulating thread. Thanks, Terry. I'm glad someone has the time to read Scientific American.
Since learning is an emotional process, it would seem that our emotions will drive us either to the analysis that drives improvement and mastery, or to the experience and relationships that are pure enjoyment. I agree that these are not mutually exclusive.

I haven't worn Levi's in decades. I'll have to look for them now.

Tom:

Then what the heck are they wearing in Rochester?!?! And you seem to be postulating a win-win situation, as distinguished from a "not mutually exclusive" situation ...

I thought Terry said that "learning" was a rational process and that he wanted to "rationalize" swimming. But then he did say that "passion" is even more important than "stroke mechanics." So we have a passionate optimistic rationalist on our hands ... usually these things don't go hand in hand. Maybe you're a conflicted philosopher at heart, Terry? If one is going to strive towards improvement, it's obviously much better not to stess or "worry" about it because there will, no doubt, be bumps along the way. But sometimes, if you're taking yourself "seriously" this can be difficult. I think, after my "vast" experience in masters competition, :rofl: , I'm getting somewhat better at not "worrying" as much. Personally, I think resiliency is an underrated trait these days. At least I did. But then I received a letter from the principal at one of my kids' schools lauding the virtue of resiliency. I think you should add that trait to your "Continuous Improvement" motto in initial caps. ;)

SwimStud
January 12th, 2007, 09:51 AM
I agree that these are not mutually exclusive.



As we now all seem to be tug-o-warring over "mutually exclusive" I will clarify. I'm not seeing this as an attack on me, so I hope I'll be afford the same emotionless reading by my audience.

Enjoyment is not mutually exclusive from dedication.
Enjoyment is not mutually exclusive from sampling everything you can.
Enjoyment is up to how you choose to find it.

Mutually exclusive is at either end of a scale (or rope), for the sake of this argument a sports activity. One end is blind dedication and obsession to one thing (Vince Lombardi) and the other is spending a few years, months, days or even just hours, trying various sports before deciding that you want to learn something of another subject (my outlook).

With perhaps a few exceptions: You cannot be totally focused to achieve the highest plane in anything unless you sacrifice variety (I had no social life while in University). You cannot enjoy variety unless you're prepared to sacrifice reaching the highest plane in any one given activity (OK I'll wait for the post about someone who does brilliant at everything LOL)


At no point do I say the dedicated do not and cannot enjoy life. My selection of Lombardi was made with much respect to the man. His quote I used inspired me to try for an A in every class in University. I think he is an example however, where a true interest becomes a life obsession and that possibly can have a negative effect on health and other aspects of one's life. I do not belittle him for his choices--it was his life to live not mine.

I do not think obsessing (within reason) about stroke mechanics, SPL, etc etc every single swimming moment is going to be detrimental to anyone--bully for you if you want to work that hard.
There is also no shame in saying--Hey I haven't swam in a race in 25 years, let me brush up a bit and do what I can and not embarrass myself, while digging into as much cake, pizza and beer as you feel inclined to.

My whole post was to tryto tell both sides of the "focus vs funseekers" (OK not a perfect comparison) that neither was right or wrong. It's up to them to keep pulling until the rope breaks or just put it down accept the others opinion, and enjoy our common interest.

Oh and Faded Levis > New Blue Levis

"All you need is love!"

Rich

geochuck
January 12th, 2007, 10:20 AM
Each life needs its own quiet place. - Mine is in the water.

Change brings freshness. - That is when I change my stroke to keep with the times.

It's the little moments that make life big. - I live my life by the day.

Caped Crusader
January 12th, 2007, 10:57 AM
I do not think obsessing (within reason) about stroke mechanics, SPL, etc etc every single swimming moment is going to be detrimental to anyone--bully for you if you want to work that hard.
There is also no shame in saying--Hey I haven't swam in a race in 25 years, let me brush up a bit and do what I can and not embarrass myself, while digging into as much cake, pizza and beer as you feel inclined to.
Rich

Well said. Either approach is equally valid. I intend to take up mountain biking when I retire. Just for a change of pace. My knees will probably be shot by then anyway.

SwimStud
January 12th, 2007, 11:04 AM
Well said. Either approach is equally valid. I intend to take up mountain biking when I retire. Just for a change of pace. My knees will probably be shot by then anyway.

At least with biking you can take your cake, pizza, and beer with you and not get it allsoggy and bleachy tasting...unless of course you drink American beer..that would be improved with some chlorine!
:rofl:

Thrashing Slug
January 12th, 2007, 01:21 PM
I'm 3 years into my 10-year plan. I started swimming 3 years ago, at age 29, with no prior experience. My improvement since then has been significant, and I'm still progressing at a pretty fast pace. Or rather, I'm still progressing - in alternating spurts of plateau/fast progression. Right now I seem to be in the midst of a noticeable progression phase. I'm on the verge of moving up a lane, if I want to suffer. Maybe 6 months more and I'll have to, to avoid traffic back-ups.

A year ago I think my fastest 100 pace was around 1:39. 2 months ago my timed 100 was 1:27, and that was after 3000 yds or so of hard practice. I think I could do a little better than that if I really went all out. I can easily swim 1:17 with fins, and my fastest 100 with fins was a 1:09. (hell, I did 5 100s kick today with fins on 1:30, varying between 1:15 and 1:25. I couldn't have done the same whole stroke. Call me fin-boy) ... What this tells me is I need to work on my kick, and of course my overall stroke technique.

For me swimming is all about mindful practice, focusing on every little detail. I try to avoid junk yardage like the plague.

It's hard to put any fixed parameters around my 10-year goal, but I definitely intend to be a better swimmer then than I am now. I'm a triathlete, and will remain one since I love open water swimming. I don't care as much about the running and biking. I tend to train only as much as necessary in those, mostly spring and summer. Swimming is by far my favorite. It's what I do all year long.

I just thought of a worthy 10-year goal. I would like to do one of those swim tour vacations, like the one where you swim the Greek isles. It may take another 7 years to convince my wife to go along with that <g>.

ensignada
January 13th, 2007, 12:04 AM
I've spent a good part of my life striving for excellence in my professional and academic endeavors. By most standards, I've succeeded, and I have to say this practice has caused me as much grief as it has brought satisfaction.

A psychologist friend reminded me once, "Barb, it doesn't have to all be 'A' work. I've embraced this philosophy for swimming. I enjoy swimming. I live for those moments when moving through the water seems effortless. I feel good when I'm headed to the pool, when I'm in the water and when I'm headed home. I don't want to ruin that feeling by thinking about how much faster, smoother or fitter I'm going to be in 10 years. I'm focusing on the now. The time I spend on technique and fitness brings me pleasure because I enjoy learning to swim well.

Ten years from now, I hope I'm enjoying swimming as much as I did when I was 20, as much as I do now. Will I be faster, stronger, more streamlined? I hope so, and that will be terrific, but it's not the reason I jump in the pool.

I certainly don't begrudge others their goals - I admire the dedication that excellence in any pursuit requires - but I'd like to be less driven and focused at this stage of my life.

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 13th, 2007, 03:03 PM
Fair question. Is it?
Or is it possible to use swim goals in such a way that they enhance the more important quality of life issues?

I have a real life-and-health motivation that underlies my swim training. Three of my grandparents and three aunts/uncles died of strokes related to high blood pressure. Since my early 30s I've always been borderline hypertense. I didn't give it overly serious thought until my 50s when I realized I'd already outlived a couple of those relations.

One thing I should have done previously was lose weight, but lacked the necessary discipline -- until I set higher swim goals last year, and realized my chances would be much improved if my strength:weight ratio was improved.

Apart from that it's best for my health if I maintain a high level of motivation to be active every day. My swim goals provide some of that motivation. And the enriched experiences I have as a result of pursuing those goals make the daily journey that much sweeter.

That may not be the case for everyone, but it is for me.

Terry,

I just ment that I'm actually very grateful to be alive but the exactness of my stroke isn't as important as is simply my swimming.

Craig

FlyQueen
January 14th, 2007, 12:34 AM
If my plan to take over the world is successful I will be supreme dictator of the world. No more 5 day work weeks, and swim meets and practices will be valid excuses for missing work either completely or being late. All pools would be 50 meters by 25 meters with moveable bulkheads. I would also be insanely rich so I'd spend the day sleeping in, swimming, playing with my children (when I have them) and watching Ohio State football.

Since that plan seems like a long shot ... I'd like to still be swimming regularly and more importantly loving swimming regularly. I'd be happy with some top ten times in sprints and fly and perhaps by then I'll learn how to swim breaststroke (are you happy rich?)

Having a good teaching job in either 1st or 2nd grade and being HAPPILY married with a few kids would be nice, too - as long ast they don't interfere with swimming ;)

dorothyrde
January 14th, 2007, 07:25 AM
If my plan to take over the world is successful I will be supreme dictator of the world. No more 5 day work weeks, and swim meets and practices will be valid excuses for missing work either completely or being late. All pools would be 50 meters by 25 meters with moveable bulkheads. I would also be insanely rich so I'd spend the day sleeping in, swimming, playing with my children (when I have them) and watching Ohio State football.;)


OK, where do I sign up to vote you in! Although I would not be watching OSU football.



Having a good teaching job in either 1st or 2nd grade and being HAPPILY married with a few kids would be nice, too - as long ast they don't interfere with swimming ;)

Kids not interfering?:rofl: I'm sorry, that is a dream world......however, they are worth it!

SwimStud
January 14th, 2007, 09:27 AM
OK, where do I sign up to vote you in! Although I would not be watching OSU football.



Kids not interfering?:rofl: I'm sorry, that is a dream world......however, they are worth it!

Agreed...not having alone time to swim isn't going to be your biggest complaint! You canat least take them to the pool to learn.

swim4me
January 14th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Kids not interfering?:rofl: I'm sorry, that is a dream world......however, they are worth it!

I also agree. It is difficult to do what you want to do 'on a regular basis' with kids in the picture. Even when kids get older, there are still teacher meetings, games, meets, and other life events for them (or her in my case) that get in the way of my plans.:2cents:

BTW - She was just accepted to the University of Texas:woot:

FlyQueen
January 14th, 2007, 10:30 AM
Congrats to your daughter Kathy!

I do realize kids will be a distraction, and a good one. That's totally okay, and at that point (many years down the road) probably a welcome distraction.

The Fortress
January 14th, 2007, 02:29 PM
I do realize kids will be a distraction, and a good one. That's totally okay, and at that point (many years down the road) probably a welcome distraction.

Well, maybe not so "welcome" as teenagers. :rofl:

I agree with Kathy though. I used to think it was tough when they were young, but the older they get, the busier you get.

When you take over the world and are ridiculously wealthy, Heather, I would appreciate it if you would remember that I'm your big sister!

Of course, after my discussions with Geek on another thread, I'm thinking of turning over a new leaf and becoming a plaintiff's lawyer. I'll represent some ridiculous client who's injured himself at a Y, cash in big time and go island hopping.

If that doesn't work out, and on a more serious note, I wonder if Terry's plan to switch his sports emphasis every few years after he "ages up" makes sense from a "mental endurance" perspective. Keeps you fresh. Don't burn out. Focusing intently on continuous improvement in only one sport for decades seems difficult.

Peter Cruise
January 14th, 2007, 02:37 PM
Heather- Ohio State football? After 'winning' their last champs through a bad call they were christened the 'Luckeyes'. After their last game, they answer to 'Suckeyes'.

poolraat
January 14th, 2007, 02:44 PM
Heather- Ohio State football? After 'winning' their last champs through a bad call they were christened the 'Luckeyes'. After their last game, they answer to 'Suckeyes'.

Careful. You don't want to incur the wrath of a Big 10 fan. I pretend to like Michigan in order to keep the peace. Although I occassionally will let slip a comment about the superiority of the PAC 10 in front of my wife.
Then it's :argue:

poolraat
January 14th, 2007, 02:46 PM
I'll represent some ridiculous client who's injured himself at a Y, cash in big time and go island hopping.

I could arrange to be that ridiculous client. I'm ready to retire and spend my days swimming and fishing.

FlyQueen
January 14th, 2007, 05:27 PM
Heather- Ohio State football? After 'winning' their last champs through a bad call they were christened the 'Luckeyes'. After their last game, they answer to 'Suckeyes'.

As for the championship 4 years ago, watch the game again. It should have ended in regulation with an Ohio State win due to a REALLY bad call against them. There was a bad call each way ... the better team won, as better teams tend to do.

As for this years game. Ohio State and Boise State were able to win every regular season game. They did not need their coach to piss and moan and whine them into the championship game. The team that played better that night won. The better team might not have. Ohio State did not deserve to win that game, they played like crap. But you can't say they suck other than their play in that game. In the past five years they've won the National Championship, played for a second national championship and made multiple BCS appearances, they also have a Heisman trophy winner ... how many teams can claim all of that? (USC and who else?) Certainly not any you would call sucky ...

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 14th, 2007, 05:40 PM
I love documentation. It all depends whether it is complete and true. I should believe in UFOs, lots of documentation there but is it true.

I have a friend who said she was taken away in a space ship, she is one of the most truthful people I know. I accept what she says but it still must happen to me before I actually believe it.

Anyone can write anything but documentation sometimes lies to us. The guys who wrote the article must make money from there story somehow.

I read it they must have an axe to grind.

When I swam in a race accross Lake Ontario in 1964 I was taken from the water and awarded 3rd prize. No one finished the race Abou Heif was awarded 1st prize. After I was pulled from the water I had a dream that I finished 1st and I stood on the podium and collected the $25,000 prize. Was I ever happy.

When I woke up in the hospital and my wife told me everyone had been pulled out, the water was 48 degrees f. and I received third place money I did not believe her at first. When it sunk in I was unhappy that I had not won the $25,000 but glad they paid out money even though no one finished the race. They also gave me a Bulova Accutron watch now that was something I did not expect.

George,

There are several psycologhical papers written about people who believe they have had encouters with aliens and their space ships. Many of the writers conclude that the individual has most likely been sexually abusd asa child. The belief that one were abducted is a mental blocking tool they have used to deny the incident or to dislocate guilt or grief.

Craig

Peter Cruise
January 14th, 2007, 07:08 PM
Heather- gotcha! Now if I can only concoct some slanderous statement combining Ohio State football and butterfly, I'll really get her going...

gull
January 15th, 2007, 12:19 PM
Of course, after my discussions with Geek on another thread, I'm thinking of turning over a new leaf and becoming a plaintiff's lawyer. I'll represent some ridiculous client who's injured himself at a Y, cash in big time and go island hopping.

Or you could run for President...

The Fortress
January 15th, 2007, 12:43 PM
Or you could run for President.

I hate politics and politicians.

So you can run instead if your malpractice insurance gets too costly.

gull
January 15th, 2007, 12:52 PM
Or you could run for President...

...as John Edwards is doing.

(One of his specialties was swimming pool injuries.)

aquageek
January 15th, 2007, 01:02 PM
...as John Edwards is doing.

(One of his specialties was swimming pool injuries.)

I actually worked on a few cases where Edwards' firm represented the plaintiff. While I didn't agree with his line of work, I will say he was honest, straightforward and well respected by both sides. Like him or not, he was also one heck of an attorney.

gull
January 15th, 2007, 01:09 PM
He also set a record in a case involving a child born with cerebral palsy, blaming it on the delivery (vaginal rather than c-section) and winning $23.5 million.

It has since been shown that there is no causal relationship.

Seems to me that an "honest" attorney wouldn't pocket 40% of the award, since he wasn't the injured party. Anyway, in ten years (back to our topic) I'll be paying higher malpractice premiums.

geochuck
January 15th, 2007, 01:12 PM
I don't know where I will be in ten years ago but I know where I was 33 years ago. I received an email this morning. It is the 8th post here http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=7344

aquageek
January 15th, 2007, 01:28 PM
Gull - I was merely commenting on working with him, not on his fees or cases. Having worked with a ton in his profession, the range of professionalism was significant. I didn't vote for the guy precisely because of cases like the one you mention.

Of course we do know that given legal hourly rates these days, a lawyer can devote most of his/her day to posting on this forum and still make a nice living.

Muppet
January 15th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Of course we do know that given legal hourly rates these days, a lawyer can devote most of his/her day to posting on this forum and still make a nice living.

A lawyer friend of mine once told me, of law school students:

the A students all end up as law professors
the B students slave away for firms the rest of their lives
the C students make all the money.

aquageek
January 15th, 2007, 02:00 PM
I have a family member graduating from law school this May. It is truly staggering what a 24 year old can pull down with that degree. More power to her!

The Fortress
January 15th, 2007, 02:07 PM
A lawyer friend of mine once told me, of law school students:

the A students all end up as law professors
the B students slave away for firms the rest of their lives
the C students make all the money.


Definitely not a fan of plaintiffs suing doctors, Gull.

As to Muppet's joke:

I have taught legal writing. But, generally, teaching law would cause me to die of boredom. Practicing it can often be dull.

I used to be billed out at much higher rates when I was still in the "slaving away" stage at my old law firm, where new associates have absolutely staggering starting salaries. (Hopefully, your family member will survive it, Geek.) Now, I have no virtually overhead, great tax deductions, and I only do whatever I'm semi-interested in and have the time for. I would like to put a new roof on my house this year and go on vacation, so I will have to continue making a nice living while posting on this forum and boring Geek.

I have never gotten a C. But Peter Angelos was one of those nasty plaintiff's lawyers with bad grades. He bought the Orioles. Many plaintiff's lawyers working on contingency fee take more than 40%. That's how they get rich.

Ten years from now, my car insurance will be outrageous.

Muppet
January 15th, 2007, 02:10 PM
Peter Angelos was one of those nasty plaintiff's lawyers with bad grades. He bought the Orioles. Many plaintiff's lawyers working on contingency fee take more than 40%. That's how they get rich.

That guy is a true Ori-hole. Didn't he make all his money on Tobacco lawsuits or something where people were dying?

gull
January 15th, 2007, 02:23 PM
What do you call the guy (or girl) who graduates at the bottom of his (or her) class in medical school?

Doctor.

(One of Dr. Debakey's colleagues, Jimmy Howell, liked to boast that he graduated at (or near) the bottom of his class. He would say this while chain smoking in the ICU.)

FlyQueen
January 15th, 2007, 02:28 PM
Gull, the other half of that is ... what does the lawyer that graduated at the bottom of their class say? "Do you want fries with that?"

The A, B, and C student thing actually makes sense to me here's why ... in law school you learn all the theory - it's abstract and boring. Those A students that really grasp it and understand it decide that they can't handle the actual application of the law so they go back to the theory. (they are too smart to be actual lawyers)

The B students get the theory they worked hard, they are more adaptable to learning the application but are not the overachievers.

The C students are the ones that learned just enough to get by and probably are less scropulous (???) then the others ...

When I did my paralegal stuff I knew far more about motions and trials, and that crap then my Ivy league educated lawyer boyfriend did ... lawyers are so helpless

No offense Fortress!!! I still love you!

The Fortress
January 15th, 2007, 02:33 PM
When I did my paralegal stuff I knew far more about motions and trials, and that crap then my Ivy league educated lawyer boyfriend did ... lawyers are so helpless

No offense Fortress!!! I still love you!

None taken. The new associates pulling in the staggeringly high salaries know absolutely nothing about the actual practice of law. Without excellent paralegals, they would easily be guilty of malpractice and screw up every major filing and document production. The one that held my ivy-educated hand (still one of my best friends) is now in charge of hundreds of paralegals in our SF office. Fortunately, her salary is now almost commensurate with her saavy, practicality, professionalism and intelligence.

Why do so many people in the medical profession (even outside of NC) smoke?

aquageek
January 15th, 2007, 02:52 PM
Why do so many people in the medical profession (even outside of NC) smoke?

It's cause they realize smoking is actually good for you.

The Fortress
January 15th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Didn't he make all his money on Tobacco lawsuits or something where people were dying?

Asbestos litigation. He is a failed politician, now busy dissing Democratic politicians.

With his last post, Geek confirms his status as forum baiter.

Maybe only smoking pot is good for you. Of course, lawyers have sworn not to engage in such flagrantly illegal conduct.

gull
January 15th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Why do so many people in the medical profession (even outside of NC) smoke?

I don't know that many who do. When I was a student twenty years ago one of my Professors, an oncologist of all things, was a chain smoker. He once said something to the effect that anyone could quit smoking, but it took a real man to laugh at death. He later died of lung cancer. So much for getting the last laugh.

swim4me
January 15th, 2007, 05:47 PM
I don't know where I will be in ten years ago but I know where I was 33 years ago. I received an email this morning. It is the 8th post here http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=7344


Doesn't something like that just make your day!!! :banana::notworthy: :banana: :woot:

geochuck
January 15th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Doesn't something like that just make your day!!! :banana::notworthy: :banana: :woot:

It was great to here from the person I asked what her name was before she married, we still have all the records of every swimming class we taught and the levels they attained. My wife who also has a photographic memory will even be able to remember her parents names.

jaegermeister
January 15th, 2007, 09:38 PM
He once said something to the effect that anyone could quit smoking, but it took a real man to laugh at death.


This gets back to where our motivations lie. Smoking is a complex behavior, with a lot of irrational motivations. It certainly has nothing to do with intellect, insight, or discipline though deficits in these areas wouldn't help if you decided you wanted to quit.
Maybe the hardest part to getting to the "wanting to" is that nicotine is a highly effective drug and cigarettes are great drug delivery systems.
For me, luckily, endorphins rule. But I still want to have some fun along the way!

Caped Crusader
January 15th, 2007, 10:26 PM
The A, B, and C student thing actually makes sense to me here's why ... in law school you learn all the theory - it's abstract and boring. Those A students that really grasp it and understand it decide that they can't handle the actual application of the law so they go back to the theory. (they are too smart to be actual lawyers)

The B students get the theory they worked hard, they are more adaptable to learning the application but are not the overachievers.

Theoretically, you could be an overachiever and dislike abstract theory. Always exceptions to every rule, except the rule that good legal assistants are invaluable.

geochuck
January 20th, 2007, 08:13 AM
One of the singing group the Mamas and Papas died yesterday at 66 years of age. He said back a few years ago - "So it's an exercise in staying in the moment."

Truer words I have never heard.

The Fortress
January 20th, 2007, 09:40 AM
I actually worked on a few cases where Edwards' firm represented the plaintiff. While I didn't agree with his line of work, I will say he was honest, straightforward and well respected by both sides. Like him or not, he was also one heck of an attorney.

Edwards just took a lot of flack in the "honesty" department in the Washington Post. Seems he sold his mega-bucks Georgetown house to a shady character under federal investigation and conveniently forgot the buyer's name.

On the smoking point, I just read an article about a big push in Mexico to persuade health care workers and doctors not to smoke. Apparently, they are behaving very irrationally down there. George, I hope you're not sucking in the second hand smoke so that you and Chuckie stay healthy while you're living in the moment.

Muppet
January 22nd, 2007, 03:19 PM
I don't know that many who do. When I was a student twenty years ago one of my Professors, an oncologist of all things, was a chain smoker. He once said something to the effect that anyone could quit smoking, but it took a real man to laugh at death. He later died of lung cancer. So much for getting the last laugh.

My pediatrician was a big smoker (had a multiple bypass/stroke thing in the last year). My sister was not a big fan of the hypocrisy of his "don't smoke" lectures he would give whenever we were in the office. He would always tell us not to smoke, its bad for you, blah blah with his smokes and matches sticking out of his pocket as I bend over and cough.