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Warren
January 16th, 2007, 03:14 AM
when I swim at a middle distance race pace, like if im doing 5 x 100 on a quick interval my muscles get tired faster than my heart. I wont even be breathing hard but my arms are tired and causes my stroke techinque to go bad quick. Does anyone else have this problem.

KaizenSwimmer
January 16th, 2007, 07:56 AM
This is localized muscle fatigue. Indicates you're swimming "with your arms and legs" rather than "with your body."
When I was in college -- 35+ years ago and doing far more endurance training -- my arms and legs would fatigue during races and I'd have a hell of a time holding things together at the end. My focus at the time was on moving forward by pulling and kicking -- hard.
Now I can swim much greater distances (longest race then was 1650 yds; now I swim 5Ks, 10Ks and even two marathons around Manhattan) train about half the weekly volume, and am even swimming faster than I did as a college freshman, but I never experience that kind of localized muscle fatigue. Instead I feel as if my body fatigues at an even rate, and with the work/fatigue distributed over far more muscles, it has minimal effect on my pace-holding ability and I recover from races far more quickly than I used to.
The difference is that I now swim "with my body" instead of using my arms and legs to drag it through the water. A few tips on how:
1) Use your hands and arms more to "hold your place" in the water, rather than to push water toward your feet.
2) Focus on sending your energy forward rather than back. Best way to do this is to finish your stroke to the front rather than the rear.
3) Focus on synchronizing and integrating movement as much as possible.
4) Check your stroke count regularly -- integrated strokes will yield a lower count than dis-integrated strokes.
5) Listen to your stroke. Integrated strokes are quieter and make less splash than dis-integrated.

These adjustments to technique and emphasis require hours and hours of patient and Mindful practice.

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 09:31 AM
I see some very controversial stuff here. #1, #2, #3 of Terry's reply I disagree with. I believe the holding on is fine but hold on with great effort. You should not pierce the water infront and the finish is very important.

blainesapprentice
January 16th, 2007, 09:50 AM
I actually have the same exact problem as Warren. In practice, I feel like I can hold 120 pace 100s for hours and hours, but if I go up to a 115, I can not make them, because even though I am making the 120 pace easily (hitting the wall around 110-112), I can not move any faster...my heartrate will be low, and my breathing will be fine, but I just can not make my arms and legs be any more productive.

and what did my coach do when I told him that? Threw me Total Immersion and told me to read it. So...thats where I am at. haha.

scyfreestyler
January 16th, 2007, 11:50 AM
I actually have the same exact problem as Warren. In practice, I feel like I can hold 120 pace 100s for hours and hours, but if I go up to a 115, I can not make them, because even though I am making the 120 pace easily (hitting the wall around 110-112), I can not move any faster...my heartrate will be low, and my breathing will be fine, but I just can not make my arms and legs be any more productive.

and what did my coach do when I told him that? Threw me Total Immersion and told me to read it. So...thats where I am at. haha.


Now that is something I was not expecting at the end of your post!

Let us know what benefits you garner from your reading.

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 12:21 PM
blainesapprentice

Was it the first book or the revised edition?

My suggestion is to add a little Max V02

swimr4life
January 16th, 2007, 12:22 PM
[QUOTE=KaizenSwimmer;74516]
2) Focus on sending your energy forward rather than back. Best way to do this is to finish your stroke to the front rather than the rear.

How do you send "your energy forward" and move forward? How can you finish your stroke in front? Please explain what this means.:dunno:

The Fortress
January 16th, 2007, 12:33 PM
I see some very controversial stuff here. #1, #2, #3 of Terry's reply I disagree with. I believe the holding on is fine but hold on with great effort. You should not pierce the water infront and the finish is very important.

This "finish" stuff does seem somewhat controversial. Surely sprinters should "finish" their stroke? Maybe front quadrant swimming and early exit is more applicable to longer events? If we "finish" in front, however that is accomplished, do we risk gliding or catching too much and thereby stress the shoulders? Even "holding your place" would seem to do that.... And do we swim/finish the same way all the time and for all events?

chaos
January 16th, 2007, 12:49 PM
This "finish" stuff does seem somewhat controversial. Surely sprinters should "finish" their stroke? Maybe front quadrant swimming and early exit is more applicable to longer events? If we "finish" in front, however that is accomplished, do we risk gliding or catching too much and thereby stress the shoulders? Even "holding your place" would seem to do that.... And do we swim/finish the same way all the time and for all events?

i type really slow, so 10 others will probably address this before my paragraph is ready.

everyone needs to finish their stroke, the difference here is how, and where you think about it.
terry and george will both correct me if i am off track here but this is how i see it:
george: stroke finishes at the hip or waiste or ribs.
this suggests "pushing oneself forward"

terry: stroke finishes at that place just before the catch.
this suggests "darting oneself forward"

blainesapprentice
January 16th, 2007, 01:15 PM
I'm reading the revised one actually...he gave me the original, but I was at the bookstore and saw the revised one so I thought I'd get that for my own library.

And actually in terms of finishing in the front, my coach has been changing my stroke around for the past few weeks, because I had still been under the impression that I should do the underwater "s" pull, and finish my underwater portion back by my hip...however, apparently thats very old school, and now I am working hard to unteach myself the s pull, and finish my stroke earlier, closer to my last rib...and it definatly has increase my stroke rate, which, for sprinting purposes was the point I suppose, because my arm rate had been ridiculously slow this season for whatever reason. I also feel more efficient with this stroke, finishing more towards the front:-D woot!

ande
January 16th, 2007, 01:32 PM
I suggest you go at easier paces and work your way up
you're probably attempting paces that you think you should be able to do
but they might actually be too difficult

find the pace where you
hold the same time on each 100
do 10 reps and
get 5 - 10 seconds rest

save your legs



when I swim at a middle distance race pace, like if im doing 5 x 100 on a quick interval my muscles get tired faster than my heart. I wont even be breathing hard but my arms are tired and causes my stroke techinque to go bad quick. Does anyone else have this problem.

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 02:29 PM
i type really slow, so 10 others will probably address this before my paragraph is ready.

everyone needs to finish their stroke, the difference here is how, and where you think about it.
terry and george will both correct me if i am off track here but this is how i see it:
george: stroke finishes at the hip or waiste or ribs.
this suggests "pushing oneself forward"

terry: stroke finishes at that place just before the catch.
this suggests "darting oneself forward"
Pretty good assement however I like the finish to happen quite low almost even with the groin but l like the hand to roll out to be closer to mid thigh, now does it make any differrence for a sprinter or a distance swimmer? I was a sprinter, a mid distance and a marathon swimmer my stroke has changed very slightly over the years. I teach the finish probably more than any other thing when doing stroke correction. Once the client has a good finish I then start getting the effort to stop just below the waist but insisist on a complete roll out at the thigh.

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 02:33 PM
I'm reading the revised one actually...he gave me the original, but I was at the bookstore and saw the revised one so I thought I'd get that for my own library.

And actually in terms of finishing in the front, my coach has been changing my stroke around for the past few weeks, because I had still been under the impression that I should do the underwater "s" pull, and finish my underwater portion back by my hip...however, apparently thats very old school, and now I am working hard to unteach myself the s pull, and finish my stroke earlier, closer to my last rib...and it definatly has increase my stroke rate, which, for sprinting purposes was the point I suppose, because my arm rate had been ridiculously slow this season for whatever reason. I also feel more efficient with this stroke, finishing more towards the front:-D woot!
If I had a coach who handed me a book to read I would find a new coach, you can see he knows nothing about swimming, I think he has been reading the wrong books.

scyfreestyler
January 16th, 2007, 03:46 PM
If I had a coach who handed me a book to read I would find a new coach, you can see he knows nothing about swimming, I think he has been reading the wrong books.

I don't think that is a fair assesment. Perhaps the coach wants him to be familiar with the concepts before he begins making the alterations to his stroke. It would seem that this would make the most of their time in the water. Just my opinion.

blainesapprentice
January 16th, 2007, 04:08 PM
My coach trains me just fine while I am in the pool, and makes a lot of comments and criticisms, but he knows I like to read and understand why I am making the changes I am making. My coach is responsible for 43 swimmers across both the mens and womens teams, and just doesn't have the time to take 20minutes out of a practice to devote to one person.

I am plenty fine with the fact that he is having me read the book.

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 04:38 PM
My fault - I have never handed any one a book I like to do stroke corrections on anyone I am with.

Does he not have an assistant coach so he can do stroke improvement.

I am glad you are happy with the way things are going.

When I had large groups I would spend time with a lane at a time doing stroke corrections, 5 minutes does wonders.

I guess it would be easier to give everyone a book I only wish I could find one that I would have confidence in.

Maybe I should write one? I just remembered I started one thirty years ago, it was called Power Swimming from the Start.

scyfreestyler
January 16th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Why not use the TI book?

okoban
January 16th, 2007, 04:41 PM
Hi blainesapprentice,
my coach Sean Fowler suggested the following a couple of weeks ago and I am working on it (I used to finishing my strokes early):

first, if you can't feel your pull at the end of your stroke, be sure that you are, in fact, finishing your pull before pulling up your elbows. many swimmers will pull up their elbows at 7 or 8 'o' clock. Be sure that your elbows don't come up before your hand points to 9 'o' clock.

second, be careful with hand paddles. they are good at strengthening hand pulls, but more focus these days is on the hand and forearm as a single unit. be careful not to adapt your stroke to emphasize the hand pulls to the detriment of the hand and forearm synchronous pull.

Check out the following video (particularly around 3:08)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnSDw373gMc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnSDw373gMc)

Now, Dr. Haljand seems to be advocating the I-Pull to the S-Pull in this video, and that's the way I'd swim it. But, more importantly, note that he has her press with her palm AND elbow (which is the end of the forearm). Also notice that he always keeps the hand and forearm inline. He deliberately worked to ensure that she kept her hand and forearm working as one tool. Hand paddles are good tools, but just be careful that they don't teach you to move your hands and forearms as separate units.

Good luck,:applaud:

Warren you said I wont even be breathing hard but my arms are tired. I think both are correlated; if you do not breath hard enough, your muscles will be tired because of lack of oxygen. (just look who's talking, I'm swiming like a locomotive in the water and giving advice to Warren) :rofl:

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Why not use the TI book? Are you trying to get me in trouble with the administrator. I like lots of pros written in some books but not all. Eg. darting the hand forward the Japanesse swimmers did that in 1956 but Councillman came and squashed that idea but now some do say that again, but I do not like that one.

blainesapprentice
January 16th, 2007, 04:57 PM
Not gonna lie, my coach is by no means superb or even good. He does the best that he's willing to put forth basically, which is why I have come to this forum and joined masters, because I needed to kinda distance myself from purely the collegiate realm of things. My coach was ONLY a distance freestyler, and really is not good at any stroke and has little knowledge in terms of sprinting. We have an assistant coach who is good, but he can only be there so often because he has another job (our school does not give us funds for an assistant). We spend the first 2 weeks of the season--way back in September "relearning" how to swim, but it feels over generalized and not really efficient, because his knowledge of swimming comes from what he did as a swimmer, and from books that he read, but has not taken much time to attend coaching clinics or swimming clinics and learn new thoughts and aspects of teaching swimming and tweaking ones stroke.

Then...following that 2 week period, he gets into his yardage thing, and from there we lose a lot of our stroke, because we are all of a sudden asked to jump from very easy 2 weeks of floating around--learning how to swim, into a 5000 yard regime with intervals and all that. I have made countless suggestions as to how he could make sure everyone got individual time with him for positive criticism--such as rotating from lane to lane each day (we only have 4 lanes) so every 4 days everyone would have had some individualized feedback from him, but he's totally ADD and hardly watches us at all while we're in practice. He's a very frustrating coach, and if it weren't for my scholarship, I most likely would have quit and just moved onto swimming with a USS team up here, that is well known and respected. I don't feel like I have improved at all since coming to my college, and thats just frustrating--because I am putting in so much more time and effort then ever before, yet my times don't compare. But, what are you gonna do? Read a book apparently, and hope it helps:-P...

--sorry. that was really long.--
Morgan

The Fortress
January 16th, 2007, 05:44 PM
Dr. Haljand seems to be advocating the I-Pull to the S-Pull in this video, and that's the way I'd swim it.

I seem to recall that George advocated the I-pull in a recent thread. The S-pull is really old school.

I frankly don't think it's ideal to learn swimming only from a book either. DVDs or video clips here could help if the coaching situation is sub-par. Try some GoSwim DVDs. Get all the advice you can. I think Terry's coming out with a new book on Endurance swimming too. I feel for you on the college coach situation. My coach was a distance freestyler too, and that's all we were subjected to. I hated it, and had some arguments with her over what sets I should have been doing. So, it may be your training, not just your technique, that needs adjusting. You could do some searches on this forum too. There's a lot of stuff on freestyle stroke questions and technique. But remember, I still think sprinters show up most at taper time.

Hey, Morgan, I thought you just had a good meet?

blainesapprentice
January 16th, 2007, 05:56 PM
yeah I did just have a meet...two actually...one sunday and a double dual meet on monday.

We lost on Sunday, and we lost to the team that we wanted to beat on Sunday and killed the other team that was at that meet, so essentially, we lost all our meets.--well the women's squad did...the men won all three.

I won all my events, and I am athlete of the week for the college, and I was noted as the mvp-female of both meets...so that was good I guess, but my times are still subpar from where I would like to be.

On Sunday I swam: 50fly in the medley relay (27.5)
200 free (2:05.20)
100 fly (1:04.4)
On Monday I swam: 50 free (26.6)
100free (58.1)
100free anchor on the 400 free relay (58.4)

so yeah, I guess I am most disappointed with my 100free times, I haven't swam a 58 in like 3 years, and now I am stuck on it, last year during taper and shave I went a 55.0...I had been hoping that would drop even more this year, but...I just don't know, since I am now swimming slower than I had all season last year. My 200 time is also kinda disheartening, because I know I can go a 2:00.00 I really wanted to be under 2minutes this season...but that too...I just can't seem to move any faster...

boo.

Paul Smith
January 16th, 2007, 06:01 PM
I guess I have a bit of a different approach.....I'd like to consider myself a "life long learner"......and a fan of the sport.

Having said that.....I'll read just about anything, try just about anything, listen to just about anyone.....and make my decisions based on trial and error and a belief that no matter what....I can be better.

Except of course when it comes to tolerance for my wifes spoiling of our dog, eating salmon, drinking gin, and EVER losing to evil-goodsmith at anything!

Rich Abrahams
January 16th, 2007, 06:19 PM
The original question was about muscular endurance. I'd like to take a different approach to answer Warren other than stroke technique. People's muscular endurance is very individualized, but in general natural sprinters will have much lower muscular endurance than distance types.

An aquaintance who is a college strength and conditioning coach recently did this experiment. He tested everyone on the team for maximum bench press (one rep). The sprinters, on average, could lift substantially more weight than the distance swimmers. On another day, when everyone was rested, he asked all his swimmers to see how many reps they could do at 70% of their maximum. No sprinter could do over 10 reps, while the distance folks averaged over 20 reps.

This tells me that there is a large component to muscular endurance that is somewhat predetermined by your natural physiology. I feel a lot of it cannot be overcome by adjusting your technique or training. Maybe I'm just rationalizing my own pathetic workout performances, but I cannot stay anywhere near swimmers in workout who I am much faster than in a one time race. This is not for lack of trying, focusing on technique, etc.

So Warren, based on some earlier posts where you mentioned some of your times, I'm afraid you may have to suffer through many a workout and have your confidence shaken by those who can come within 10% of their PR's while doing 10 X 100 with 10 seconds rest. All will be redeemed on race day... assuming you don't do anything stupid like race a 200 or, heaven forbid, a 500.

Rich

scyfreestyler
January 16th, 2007, 06:24 PM
The original question was about muscular endurance. I'd like to take a different approach to answer Warren other than stroke technique. People's muscular endurance is very individualized, but in general natural sprinters will have much lower muscular endurance than distance types.

An aquaintance who is a college strength and conditioning coach recently did this experiment. He tested everyone on the team for maximum bench press (one rep). The sprinters, on average, could lift substantially more weight than the distance swimmers. On another day, when everyone was rested, he asked all his swimmers to see how many reps they could do at 70% of their maximum. No sprinter could do over 10 reps, while the distance folks averaged over 20 reps.

This tells me that there is a large component to muscular endurance that is somewhat predetermined by your natural physiology. I feel a lot of it cannot be overcome by adjusting your technique or training. Maybe I'm just rationalizing my own pathetic workout performances, but I cannot stay anywhere near swimmers in workout who I am much faster than in a one time race. This is not for lack of trying, focusing on technique, etc.

So Warren, based on some earlier posts where you mentioned some of your times, I'm afraid you may have to suffer through many a workout and have your confidence shaken by those who can come within 10% of their PR's while doing 10 X 100 with 10 seconds rest. All will be redeemed on race day... assuming you don't do anything stupid like race a 200 or, heaven forbid, a 500.

Rich

That was some valuable information. Thanks. :wave:

The Fortress
January 16th, 2007, 06:24 PM
This tells me that there is a large component to muscular endurance that is somewhat predetermined by your natural physiology. I feel a lot of it cannot be overcome by adjusting your technique or training. Maybe I'm just rationalizing my own pathetic workout performances, but I cannot stay anywhere near swimmers in workout who I am much faster than in a one time race. This is not for lack of trying, focusing on technique, etc.

So Warren, based on some earlier posts where you mentioned some of your times, I'm afraid you may have to suffer through many a workout and have your confidence shaken by those who can come within 10% of their PR's while doing 10 X 100 with 10 seconds rest. All will be redeemed on race day... assuming you don't do anything stupid like race a 200 or, heaven forbid, a 500. Rich

Thanks so much for this good advice and practical fresh perspective. :banana: I will sleep much better tonight knowing this. And I won't feel so bad at my next practice if (or when) I lapse into the realm of pathetic. Hope Morgan and Warren feel the same. I see our other "nothing over a 200 free guy" scyfreestyler also feels this way.

Rich Abrahams
January 16th, 2007, 06:31 PM
The original question was about muscular endurance. I'd like to take a different approach to answer Warren other than stroke technique. People's muscular endurance is very individualized, but in general natural sprinters will have much lower muscular endurance than distance types.

An aquaintance who is a college strength and conditioning coach recently did this experiment. He tested everyone on the team for maximum bench press (one rep). The sprinters, on average, could lift substantially more weight than the distance swimmers. On another day, when everyone was rested, he asked all his swimmers to see how many reps they could do at 70% of their maximum. No sprinter could do over 10 reps, while the distance folks averaged over 20 reps.

This tells me that there is a large component to muscular endurance that is somewhat predetermined by your natural physiology. I feel a lot of it cannot be overcome by adjusting your technique or training. Maybe I'm just rationalizing my own pathetic workout performances, but I cannot stay anywhere near swimmers in workout who I am much faster than in a one time race. This is not for lack of trying, focusing on technique, etc. Also, in contrast to Terry, I get incredible localized muscle fatigue (and pain) after an extremely hard effort, to the point that it is hard to walk for 5 or 10 minutes after an all out 100 M free.

So Warren, based on some earlier posts where you mentioned some of your times, I'm afraid you may have to suffer through many a workout and have your confidence shaken by those who can come within 10% of their PR's while doing 10 X 100 with 10 seconds rest. All will be redeemed on race day... assuming you don't do anything stupid like race a 200 or, heaven forbid, a 500.

Rich

swim4me
January 16th, 2007, 06:35 PM
An aquaintance who is a college strength and conditioning coach recently did this experiment. He tested everyone on the team for maximum bench press (one rep). The sprinters, on average, could lift substantially more weight than the distance swimmers. On another day, when everyone was rested, he asked all his swimmers to see how many reps they could do at 70% of their maximum. No sprinter could do over 10 reps, while the distance folks averaged over 20 reps.
Rich

This explains things for me as well. In the weight room, the men that use a machine after me usually lift much lighter weights than I do. I have always found this suprising, because though I can lift a good amount, I just thought guys should be able to outlift me. Also my muscles tend to tire more easily when swimming distance than when swimming sprints which leave me more winded (as they should). I always thought I was a sprinter because of my A-type personality, but your words have me thinking that it is just the way I am made.:)

Peter Cruise
January 16th, 2007, 06:54 PM
Rich- pathetic? Oh, come now! You could wear a full-body cast and still not be pathetic in a pool.

blainesapprentice
January 16th, 2007, 07:15 PM
I really like what you're saying Rich, it makes a lot of sense. I've heard a lot of similar info since coming to this forum, and it's given me more confidence and patience in practice...when I can't keep up with these distance swimmers who are holding times better than I can.

I am most certainly a sprinter--I can not float to save my life...according to my coach...thats a sign of a sprinter...? Whatever, I sometimes wish I could perform better at distance events, because sprinting kinda gets old--esp. when your in a rut, and you just want to mix up your events a little bit...I can hold my own in the 500 but, I am def. not nearly as valuable there as I am in the 50 or 100 or 200.

Well this forum really has been helpful!:applaud:

Allen Stark
January 16th, 2007, 07:44 PM
Because swimmers are horizontal,blood perfusion is less of a problem and cardiac output is rarely the rate limiting step in reasonably trained swimmers. Issues of technique are important,but not what I'll discuss now. If your muscles are burning you are producing lactic acid faster than it can be removed. This means you are training at faster than your anaerobic threshhold. That is a good thing if you are a sprinter as that is where you will be in your racesIMHO. As a sprinter I believe that in some workouts you should press on as long as your stroke doen't get too ragged to build up lactic acid tolerance. Other days you should lengthen your rest interval so you can do more racepace work.
Morgan,not to question your coach too much,but as I noted in another thread I don't know of any world class sprinter who doesn't pull past their waist. That seems to be a technique more popular with distance swimmers.

swim4me
January 16th, 2007, 07:49 PM
What is 'IMHO'?

SwimStud
January 16th, 2007, 07:51 PM
What is 'IMHO'?

In My Humble Opinion

:D

blainesapprentice
January 16th, 2007, 07:52 PM
Hmm...I guess I should talk to my coaches again then...I don't feel as strong or as powerful of a propulsion forward when i don't pull to the hip.

swim4me
January 16th, 2007, 07:58 PM
In My Humble Opinion

:D

Thanks Rich. And look.....You even have a Studly dog!!!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

poolraat
January 16th, 2007, 07:59 PM
What is 'IMHO'?

I'm glad you asked this. I was about to.

swim4me
January 16th, 2007, 08:02 PM
I'm glad you asked this. I was about to.
I like your dog too, but I am guessing by her pink kercheif that she is a little girl.:wiggle:

ande
January 16th, 2007, 08:27 PM
warren

with your speed why would you want to do ANY middle distance training
you are a sprinter
if you're 21.8 in the 50 and 50.0 in the 100
you're likely to be a drop dead sprinter

stick with drills, speed work, splitting, racing, and strength training
you don't need to be doing much aerobic work
if you feel the need to do aerobic work
do gentle aerobic work
stay on easy paces
you don't need to be falling apart and swimming with bad form

ande


when I swim at a middle distance race pace, like if im doing 5 x 100 on a quick interval my muscles get tired faster than my heart. I wont even be breathing hard but my arms are tired and causes my stroke techinque to go bad quick. Does anyone else have this problem.

The Fortress
January 16th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Morgan, not to question your coach too much,but as I noted in another thread I don't know of any world class sprinter who doesn't pull past their waist. That seems to be a technique more popular with distance swimmers.

This is what I thought too, even though I've been told to early exit for shoulder reasons. But then I always agree with Allen. :rofl:

Warren:

I agree with Ande too. As always. He gives great advice. We sprinters don't need no stinking 200s and 500s! At least you don't have to worry about having a coach to make you do all that aerobic stuff. Were you at the Mason Sprint Classic where we got to do 25s? Weren't those the best?

Morgan:

I don't float at all either. You must be a sprinter. Try not to be too disheartened. I really think Rich is right. I think your 100 and 200 times will drop a lot when you taper. I guess they should be a little faster based on your 50 times, and I don't blame you for being disappointed. Everyone is sometimes. Try talking to your coach about the issue and how your body is feeling. Are there other sprinters on your team? You really should have separate workouts for sprinters/strokers/distance swimmers. Those long distance workouts will just make you feel beat up. But, at least if he believes in a taper, you'll have some really fast times later. But remember, sprinters need to taper more. Personally, I started loafing some sets in college a little earlier than everyone else because I knew I needed more rest. Hopefully, your coach will see that too.

I'm really allergic to dogs guys. Those avatars are killing me here in cyber space.

swim4me
January 16th, 2007, 08:39 PM
I'm really allergic to dogs guys. Those avatars are killing me here in cyber space.

Fort, mine is bathed regularly and very well behaved.

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 08:50 PM
My dog is prettier than any other dog I have seen.

I changed to an I stroke before it was called an I stroke. I called it an Isometric stroke.

swim4me
January 16th, 2007, 08:53 PM
My dog is prettier than any I other dog I have seen.


He is 'special' :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

SwimStud
January 16th, 2007, 09:01 PM
My dog is prettier than any other dog I have seen.



Damn that dog is fugly! Sorry George . Didn't that pooch go to the big Kennel in the sky recently?

If he reincarnates he's gonna be one smooth looking Great Dane or the like!
:rofl:

geochuck
January 16th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Just watched Hackett swimming again he does finish his stroke well it is not finishing at his rib cage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwvtuHya40g

Just watched Inge sprinting her finish is way down the thigh http://www.wa.swimming.org.au/coaching/videos/video.asp?videoID=74

Warren
January 16th, 2007, 11:17 PM
warren

with your speed why would you want to do ANY middle distance training
you are a sprinter
if you're 21.8 in the 50 and 50.0 in the 100
you're likely to be a drop dead sprinter

stick with drills, speed work, splitting, racing, and strength training
you don't need to be doing much aerobic work
if you feel the need to do aerobic work
do gentle aerobic work
stay on easy paces
you don't need to be falling apart and swimming with bad form

ande


I'm just trying to get a little more endurance to bring my hundred time down. David Marsh says in his sprinting video say that when you step up on the block to do a 50 or 100 you should have the mentality that I could go a good 200 today.

ande
January 17th, 2007, 11:01 AM
start doing fast 100's, 150's and 200's in practice
work on splitting
though for the 100 speed is most important

you've got to be able to get out fast

also focus on your 2nd 50
train to finish it fast
figure out how you need to swim it to have a 1.0 - 1.5 second difference between your first and 2nd 50

how did you split your 100 when you went 50.0?

ande



I'm just trying to get a little more endurance to bring my hundred time down. David Marsh says in his sprinting video say that when you step up on the block to do a 50 or 100 you should have the mentality that I could go a good 200 today.

Warren
January 17th, 2007, 11:29 AM
start doing fast 100's, 150's and 200's in practice
work on splitting
though for the 100 speed is most important

you've got to be able to get out fast

also focus on your 2nd 50
train to finish it fast
figure out how you need to swim it to have a 1.0 - 1.5 second difference between your first and 2nd 50

how did you split your 100 when you went 50.0?

ande


24.03 25.97

went out to slow because I was pacing with the guy next to me then I just went as fast as I could on the last 25

I want to be able to go 23 24.99

Larry_55
January 17th, 2007, 12:37 PM
oops wrong thread

Larry_55
January 17th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Okoban,
I enjoyed the video clip and saved the link. Thanks.

okoban
January 17th, 2007, 02:38 PM
Larry, I'm glad you liked it.
George, thanks for the links. Hackett's right hand entry is as faulty as mine:banana: :banana: :banana:

geochuck
January 17th, 2007, 05:07 PM
Larry, I'm glad you liked it.
George, thanks for the links. Hackett's right hand entry is as faulty as mine:banana: :banana: :banana:

Give me any faults that Hackett has I would be proud to make any errors in my stroke that he has.

blainesapprentice
January 17th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Before someone mentioned the "s" pull vs an "i" pull...so I have been thinking about this while swimming, and while I realize the s pull is old fashioned...what does the "I" pull consist of? I am assuming that by i pull we are talking about just a straight line pull? If I am correct in assuming that I will have some further questions for you all:-p...

funkyfish
January 17th, 2007, 11:17 PM
I too would like to know the difference between "I" pulls and "S" pulls. Don't want to be "old school."

The Fortress
January 18th, 2007, 10:18 AM
Morgan and Colin:

I am not a swim coach and typically only swim the 50 free at meets, so I'm not the best to answer this question. Maybe Ande, George,Terry or Paul will come back to this thread and explain it more precisely. George describes the "I" pull on the "freestyle stroke question" thread, I seem to recall. That thread is chock full of all sorts of stuff. So take a look at that.

Since I mentioned the I vs. S pull, here's my very limited :2cents: on the I stroke. My hand enters sort of like a "mail slot" pretty much directly in front of my shoulder. It drifts out a tad and then I pull in a bit (but not past the center line so you don't cross over) and then pretty much pull straight down trying for an EVF. (If you let your hand drift too far to the side on the entry and catch and ride the glide too long, you might have too much of a "weighted" catch, which could cause shoulder issues.) You either finish past the hips or early exit depending on whether you're sprinting or doing mid-to-distance free. When beginning to exit, your hand goes slightly to the right at the bottom of the I and then you recover. The problem with the "S," I believe, is that it is inefficient and less powerful to have your hand sculling back and forth on the pull.

I must emphasize that I'm a sprinter like Warren, so others may do it differently. (I am short and generally have a high SR and rather straight arm recovery when sprinting. I swim it differently when doing longer sets.) Freestyle technique seems to vary widely, and is definitely a different strokes for different folks sort of thing. Some have a straight arm recovery, others have a high elbow. (Dave Denniston says this is OK, Jonty Skinner says no. There are other threads on this particular issue, I think.) Some (or most) do front quadrant swimming and use an early exit. Wouldn't do this for a sprint. Most people enter fingers first, but I know people that do a thumb entry without shoulder issues. (I think even Klete Keller does this.) Not one size fits all.

I'm sure someone else can describe this more eloquently than me.

OK, I looked. Here is what George said about the "I" stroke on the other thread:

"I put my hand in on the centerline as I extend the arm, the hand drifts out slightly and down, about 8" off center then the forearm rotates to get the little finger almost directly below the thumb and press back to the center. When I reach the catch I max it, I keep the hand on the center of the line making sure the hand and fore arm precedes (do not let the elbow precede the forearm) the elbow but the elbow is locked, the hand comes close to the body, until I get to the crotch there it extends naturally as the elbow lifts and the hand rolls out."

mattson
January 22nd, 2007, 05:40 AM
Looking back at the first page, George mentioned that he disagreed with points 1-3. But I get the impression that George is a naturally talented swimmer. As a less talented swimmer, when I'm swimming better, points 1-3 are part of the difference.

For instance, points 1 and 2 have to do with the nature of water: it flows under pressure. For a newer swimmer, if they think about pushing water backwards (often pushing too hard), then there will be wasted energy going into turbulence. By concentrating more on applying just the right amount of pressure ("gripping" the water), more of your effort will go into forward motion.


This is localized muscle fatigue. Indicates you're swimming "with your arms and legs" rather than "with your body."


For most of this season, a specific muscle group in my arms (or legs) would be the limitation in practice, so my heart rate didn't get high either. A week ago, my coach mentioned that my arm was crossing over during my pull. This made me realize that I was pulling with my hand too deep. When I started to make my pull more like a lat pull-down (and kept my elbows a lot closer to the surface of the water), that allowed more of my effort to be transferred to muscle groups that can take it. At the end of practice, I was tired from the fingers all the way to my back, and I could feel it in my abs too.

That also made me think about the "S-pull". Between the "lat pull-down" sort of motion and body roll, I naturally did a S-pull. When I *thought* about doing an S-pull, I was less efficient. I got caught up with where my hand was in the water, and would let my elbow drop, didn't use my back muscles, etc.

When people are talking about the arm postion during the pull, they are not mentioning if their comments are from the viewpoint of the coach (stationary on deck), or compared to your body (which is rolling side-to-side during the pull).

geochuck
January 23rd, 2007, 08:36 AM
I have looked for that mail slot, it is not there. The best thing you have done is having your coach tell you about the cross over. The body sets up a bow wave get your hands into it and take advantage of the water you are pushing forward. Make your hand follow the black line on the bottom of the pool, don't drop your elbow from the catch phase to the finish. Use your hand, forearm, elbow and your large back muscles will come into play, it is using the fulcrum effect (levers). The kick is your balancer. Sorry for being so late but computer is acting crazy here in Melaque Mexico.

KaizenSwimmer
January 23rd, 2007, 09:24 AM
I'm just trying to get a little more endurance to bring my hundred time down.

Consider the possibility that your approach or strategy may yield as much or more improvement in the race as trying to effect modifications to biochemistry (i.e. muscular endurance or lactate tolerance) through training.

Some time ago I posted an account of how John Smith, when he was coaching Maurice Green to becoming the dominant 100m sprinter in the track world, focused Maurice's training very heavily on solving the problem of deceleration at 75 to 85m. I.E. all the world's top sprinters were slowing down noticeably at that point. Smith saw an opportunity to beat them by training Maurice to reach top speed later and hold it longer.

They focused on such details as staying low longer and becoming upright later after the start, staying in "build" mode through 50m, rather than reaching top speed at 25-35m, etc. Such changes in approach allowed Maurice to hold his top speed nearly to the finish line, passing his rivals as they decelerated in the final 15 to 25m. That was the point where he won his races.

I read that article just as I began coaching the sprinters at West Point and thought it would be interesting to apply the same thinking. If the disadvantages of deceleration -- and the rewards for solving it -- are so significant in a race that lasts less than 10 seconds, how significant might they be in a race that lasts 40 sec to a minute or more? In essence we decided on a race plan in which they would "set up" the race in the first 25, build to top speed through the middle 50 and try to hold top speed for as much of the final 25 as possible.

Once we decided on that strategy for racing a 100, I sought every possible way to rehearse and imprint that strategy in training. As we trained in "rehearsal mode", the energy system got all the stimulus it needed to be race-ready as well. At least no one ever complained of feeling physically unprepared in a race.

Postscript on S-stroke vs. I-stroke. A swim stroke is relatively closely related to ballistic actions like throwing a punch and throwing or hitting a ball. Ballistic actions cannot be guided to completion. Therefore one is advised to give great attention to initiating them properly.

If you give a lot of attention to the position and pitch of your hand as you set up for your catch, keeping the water there "quiet," and how well-controlled (minimize slip or turbulence) the first few degrees of movement are, you'll usually end up with a much more effective stroke. Trying to tweak it beyond that point will often occupy a lot of brainpower without necessarily producing significant change in technique. If you're not focused on guiding the middle and end of the ongoing stroke, then you're free to focus on the setup/catch/initiation of the next stroke.

geochuck
January 23rd, 2007, 10:04 AM
If you are swimming a 50 or a 100 don't take too much time setting up to get into the catch phase or you will be left in the dust, or the wash. When I watch the great sprinters I do notice little bubbles and turbulance during the catch phase. But if you are swimming a mile in 23 plus you do not have to worry about turbulance during the catch phase.

The "I" stroke would have never come about if there was not what Councillman described as the "S" stroke a very slight change in how we pull.

Paul Smith
January 23rd, 2007, 12:06 PM
George.....sorry to disagree.....but I really think that thru a lot of technique work you can and should dial in your catch to be successful in a 50/100....so the "thinking" part is done during practice until it becomes something that you are not thinking about during the race....its "natural".

Three years ago I had a chance to focus on the 50 for the first time in years, John had coerced Rowdy into going to nationals with us in an attempt to have a 35+ relay beat the national high school record (yes....he thinks of these things). Training with John & Rowdy I noticed that I had indeed gotten sloppy on my entry/catch.....and put 3 months into changing it.....and it worked....20.95 flat start and 20.5 relay split.....vs. 21.5 range the prior few years.

As for swimming longer distances....I also disagree...if you are creating turbulence and slipping when it can be reduced by technique corrections its going to have an even more pronounced effect on time improvement.

geochuck
January 23rd, 2007, 12:52 PM
All I am saying is I have watched thousands of videos and you know I don't like slippage. But we do have to put some real effort to be fast and we cannot take forever to hook it into the groove. It is all technique but do not waste your time in getting to the catch get there then use it. There is slippage but slippage should be limited as much as possible.

Just to add if there is no slippage at all you will not swim fast.

Distance swimmers have less slippage then sprinters.

Paul Smith
January 23rd, 2007, 01:26 PM
Fair enough George......

Interesting idea that (all things being equal) you feel distance swimmers have less slippage....I need to think about that a bit.....my first impression would be that because of the increased turnover that may seem to be the case....however.....it would also sem to be that the amount of power being generated is also far greater for the sprinter...which means faster times/less slippage.....so...I'm not sure about that?

LindsayNB
January 23rd, 2007, 03:56 PM
The basic laws of hydrodynamics tell us that as you apply more force (as sprinters do) the water will give way faster, i.e. more slippage will occur. If there were a way for sprinters to swim more efficiently/with less slippage than distance swimmers the distance swimmers would adopt the same changes as efficiency is "more important" in distance swimming - because sprinters can trade some efficiency for more speed over a shorter distance.

KaizenSwimmer
January 23rd, 2007, 05:31 PM
if you are swimming a mile in 23 plus you do not have to worry about turbulance during the catch phase.

Turbulence and slippage is possible at all speeds. I've seen literally thousands of triathletes swimming 35 and 45 minute miles, with a significant source of their ineffectiveness being that they spend a vast amount of energy creating turbulence.

The best 100m sprinters generally have more "leisurely" catches than less successful sprinters. Those with a rushed catch gain less traction and have to turn over more to compensate. Those who take a millisecond extra to trap water and rotate the upper arm into the most advantageous position hold water better and are better connected to core power. The effect of the mechanical advantage they gain is the ability to use a lower stroke rate, the result of which is being able to maintain maximum speed for longer before the almost inevitable deceleration sets in. Voila - more muscular endurance.

KaizenSwimmer
January 23rd, 2007, 05:38 PM
as efficiency is "more important" in distance swimming - because sprinters can trade some efficiency for more speed over a shorter distance.

Certainly true in the sense that multiplying basic inefficiency by hundreds of strokes will amount to huge waste. But also worth considering in sprinting are:
1) Higher speeds mean much greater resistance. It's more efficient to reduce resistance to a minimum before raising speed to maximum.
2) Maintaining efficiency at higher stroke rates is a far greater challenge to coordination.
3) Unlike in a race that lasts 20 minutes (or even 5 minutes) there's no time to "tweak" a detected stroke flaw during a race that lasts 20 to 45 seconds. Efficiency has to be reduced to an automatic response.

geochuck
January 23rd, 2007, 06:03 PM
Not only is slippage possible it happens even in the very best swimmers. It happens no matter how fast you swim or slow you swim but a swimmer using proper tech has less slippage. I have watched several videos of you Terry and have found very little slippage in your slow tempo swims but I have watched some of you swimming faster and did detect slippage. So to say we have to set and wait to feel the water really does not hold water. We have to get there as fast as we can get set and go. I think you will find that us big guys look like it is leisurely but it is not.

It is easy to say "The best 100m sprinters generally have more "leisurely" catches than less successful sprinters" but do they generally have leisurely catches??? I have seen very few sprint swimmers who have leisurely catches.


Turbulence and slippage is possible at all speeds. I've seen literally thousands of triathletes swimming 35 and 45 minute miles, with a significant source of their ineffectiveness being that they spend a vast amount of energy creating turbulence.

The best 100m sprinters generally have more "leisurely" catches than less successful sprinters. Those with a rushed catch gain less traction and have to turn over more to compensate. Those who take a millisecond extra to trap water and rotate the upper arm into the most advantageous position hold water better and are better connected to core power. The effect of the mechanical advantage they gain is the ability to use a lower stroke rate, the result of which is being able to maintain maximum speed for longer before the almost inevitable deceleration sets in. Voila - more muscular endurance.

KaizenSwimmer
January 24th, 2007, 07:18 AM
Not only is slippage possible it happens even in the very best swimmers. It happens no matter how fast you swim or slow you swim .

So which is it? "You don't have to worry about turbulence and slippage in a 23-minute mile" OR "Slippage happens now matter how fast or slow you swim?"

Or do you simply feel compelled to take a contrary position to anything I post, even if that requires you to contradict yourself?

Yes, slippage is possible at any speed, given that water offers such poor traction -- which is precisely why I talked about the benefits of taking "an extra millisecond" to set up an effective catch...but a few sentences further on you disagreed that that might happen in the 100m.

Slippage in your consistency?

geochuck
January 24th, 2007, 08:50 AM
Terry I was reffering to your 23+ minute mile you were telling us you did and not anyone else that cannot swim effortlessly like you.

I have to use effort to swim even one length of the pool and I am sure I move a lot of water everytime I swim and I surely cause waves.

If you don't want comments don't post. You are welcome to comment on anything I say.

The Fortress
January 24th, 2007, 09:01 AM
It is easy to say "The best 100m sprinters generally have more "leisurely" catches than less successful sprinters" but do they generally have leisurely catches??? I have seen very few sprint swimmers who have leisurely catches.

Gee, I wish I had a "leisurely" catch, but I don't think I really do. At least not in a sprint, although I'm sure my catch could be improved. The catch is the trickiest part of freestyle for me.

I think this is a bit of linguistics again. No sprinter is really "leisurely" just as swimming is not "effortless." Both are Effortful, as Terry has said elsewhere although everyone is striving for that perfect efficient speed.

Rob Copeland
January 24th, 2007, 09:11 AM
Or do you simply feel compelled to take a contrary position to anything I post, even if that requires you to contradict yourself?


If you don't want comments don't post. You are welcome to comment on anything I say.

Now boys… this keep this civil and get back to the thread at hand.

poolraat
January 24th, 2007, 10:54 AM
Gee, I wish I had a "leisurely" catch, but I don't think I really do. At least not in a sprint, although I'm sure my catch could be improved. The catch is the trickiest part of freestyle for me.

Is it that we are striving for the appearance of "leisurely and/or "effortless" when we swim rather than swimming in that manner?
I've been told that I look effortless, but this is coming from lap swimmers who thrash their way up and down the pool.
Effortless, it is not! Or is there another reason I am breathing so hard?


A question, Terry. I just learned how to use the kick the "TI way". I do fine on freestyle but on backstroke I seem to have a problem with the timing and actually end up kicking against my rotation instead of with it. Any suggestions?

lefty
January 24th, 2007, 12:48 PM
An aquaintance who is a college strength and conditioning coach recently did this experiment. He tested everyone on the team for maximum bench press (one rep). The sprinters, on average, could lift substantially more weight than the distance swimmers. On another day, when everyone was rested, he asked all his swimmers to see how many reps they could do at 70% of their maximum. No sprinter could do over 10 reps, while the distance folks averaged over 20 reps.

This is interesting. Personally, I max out at 255 or 260 (I only do this once or twice per year). 70% of that is around 180. I can do that 12-14 times fresh. Unsurprisingly, I am a sprinter.

As others have more sensibly pointed out, to Warren's original question, the reason you are experiences the muscle fatigue is because that is the way you were designed! You should feel blessed (Warren). You are a pure sprinter!

Muppet
January 24th, 2007, 01:20 PM
An aquaintance who is a college strength and conditioning coach recently did this experiment. He tested everyone on the team for maximum bench press (one rep). The sprinters, on average, could lift substantially more weight than the distance swimmers. On another day, when everyone was rested, he asked all his swimmers to see how many reps they could do at 70% of their maximum. No sprinter could do over 10 reps, while the distance folks averaged over 20 reps.

Just more evidence that distance swimmers do it longer. :banana: :banana:
(we need an energizer bunny smiley)

Allen Stark
January 24th, 2007, 05:26 PM
Distance swimmers may do it longer,but when they do it it's BORING.

Caped Crusader
January 24th, 2007, 05:51 PM
Distance swimmers may do it longer,but when they do it it's BORING.

Endurance is underrated. Sprinting is boring. Who wants it to be over so fast?

Muppet is right. :banana: :dedhorse:

At the risk of pissing off la bella Fortresse, SCY is a bunch of turns and streamlining whether you're sprinting or swimming the 1650.

SwimStud
January 24th, 2007, 05:56 PM
Endurance is underrated. Sprinting is boring. Who wants it to be over so fast?

Muppet is right. :banana: :dedhorse:

At the risk of pissing off la bella Fortresse, SCY is a bunch of turns and streamlining whether you're sprinting or swimming the 1650.


I can endure and I can sprint... but then again...I am the SwimStud...
*insert bicep flexing smiley here*

gull
January 24th, 2007, 05:57 PM
By "leisurely" I think Terry is saying the same thing as "Don't rush the catch," which I've read elsewhere. But when sprinting, how do you determine the proper trade-off between stroke rate and stroke length? Does not rushing the catch still apply?

Caped Crusader
January 24th, 2007, 06:01 PM
I can endure and I can sprint... but then again...I am the SwimStud...
*insert bicep flexing smiley here*

But are you doing it leisurely or effortfully? Or just making it appear that way? It seems that, ideally, it would be best if it at least felt somewhat smooth while your muscles are burning and that it also appeared smooth.

Is there slippage on breaststroke?

SwimStud
January 24th, 2007, 06:07 PM
But are you doing it leisurely or effortfully? Or just making it appear that way? It seems that, ideally, it would be best if it at least felt somewhat smooth while your muscles are burning and that it also appeared smooth.

Is there slippage on breaststroke?

I guess there must be but I'm not smart enough to know. I am trying to do 2 things. Keep my chin tucked and get my arse into the kick...
It's OK but more work to go.
My muscles burned pretty darn good in workout the other night. My lungs were burning a bit too does that count?

Caped Crusader
January 24th, 2007, 06:14 PM
I guess there must be but I'm not smart enough to know. I am trying to do 2 things. Keep my chin tucked and get my arse into the kick...
It's OK but more work to go.
My muscles burned pretty darn good in workout the other night. My lungs were burning a bit too does that count?

I think it means it's effortful. Sounds like some engine building going on too.

Gull:

It seems like "not rushing the catch" may apply in sprinting -- I wouldn't know, not a sprinter, but it seems that Terry was saying you may want to wait an extra millisecond or too to avoid slippage. Determinnig the proper 'tradeoff" sounds like a trick question. It's probably different for everyone.

swimr4life
January 24th, 2007, 06:27 PM
Distance swimmers may do it longer,but when they do it it's BORING.


Quality not Quantity! ;)

chaos
January 24th, 2007, 06:51 PM
But when sprinting, how do you determine the proper trade-off between stroke rate and stroke length?

golf.
if by adding a stroke you can't swim any faster then i would say that stroke is wasted effort.

LindsayNB
January 24th, 2007, 07:22 PM
golf.
if by adding a stroke you can't swim any faster then i would say that stroke is wasted effort.

Shouldn't that be:

Time.
If by adding a stroke you can't swim any faster then I would say that stroke is wasted effort.

? ;)

I.e. if I add one stroke to my 50 and swim 0.5s faster is that a wasted effort?

chaos
January 24th, 2007, 07:24 PM
Shouldn't that be:

Time.
If by adding a stroke you can't swim any faster then I would say that stroke is wasted effort.

? ;)

I.e. if I add one stroke to my 50 and swim 0.5s faster is that a wasted effort?
true.
thanks for keeping me honest.

LindsayNB
January 24th, 2007, 07:51 PM
The basic laws of hydrodynamics tell us that as you apply more force (as sprinters do) the water will give way faster, i.e. more slippage will occur. If there were a way for sprinters to swim more efficiently/with less slippage than distance swimmers the distance swimmers would adopt the same changes as efficiency is "more important" in distance swimming - because sprinters can trade some efficiency for more speed over a shorter distance.

At Terry pointed out, I botched the wording of this, efficiency should always be used with respect to some measure, in this case I used it with respect to slippage, as indicated by the / in the sentence. This meaning was completely lost when Terry only quoted half the sentence. I meant to say:

If sprinters found a way to reduce their slippage, despite the greater force they apply, the distance swimmers would adopt the same technique.

But I should have qualified it even further to restrict the discussion to changes in the pull, as we know sprinters will use a very strong kick, despite it's energy cost, because speed, not total energy used or minimal slippage, is the goal. With a strong enough kick one can reduce slippage to zero, although with a very likely loss of speed as zero slippage will occur at the point where zero force is applied.

blainesapprentice
January 24th, 2007, 07:53 PM
My coach calls that golf too though.

Actually we do a serious of "swolfs" We swim a 50, with the lowest stroke count we can get...and get our time for the 50. You add your # of strokes to your time..thats your swolf score. Then you try to increase your speed (lower your time), which generally will mean increasing your stroke rate...but you want to maintain your original swolf score, or better it.

This is really hard for me, because I tend to take a zillion strokes and swim really fast. So I can get a really good swolf score, but only because I can do the 50 in a relatively quick time. But, I have been working on taking less strokes as I increase my stroke rate...rotating more and more and more--thats all I ever hear!

FlyQueen
January 24th, 2007, 08:01 PM
Hi Morgan. I've heard that sprinters should swim flatter than distance swimmers. If you look at Cullen Jones, Natalie Coughlin, Jodie Henry, Gary Hall Jr., Neil Walker, etc. they do not rotate a lot. The TREND seems to be to swim flatter when you sprint and rotate more on distance ... just my 2 cents ... or as my first graders would spell it sents ... :2cents:

LindsayNB
January 24th, 2007, 08:51 PM
I wonder if this swimming flatter requires recovering with a straighter arm because in my personal experience swimming flatter with a high elbow recovery is a recipe for shoulder problems.

KaizenSwimmer
January 24th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Gee, I wish I had a "leisurely" catch, but I don't think I really do.

I hope you understand that's a relative term. I've attended 10 or 12 NCAA championships and four Olympic Trials. I noticed in the heats of the 100 Free that some swimmers seemed to have "all the time in the world" to make the catch compared to others. Those swimmers, in significant numbers, qualified for finals, while those who didn't seem to have this "extra time" fell by the wayside.

Think of it as being akin to the remarkable leisure a Michael Jordan seemed to have with the "hang time" in an otherwise incredibly fast paced game to seemingly look around, ponder several options, and then make a remarkable shot.

KaizenSwimmer
January 24th, 2007, 10:06 PM
I just learned how to use the kick the "TI way".

I have to confess to being unsure what the "TI way" to kick is. Except that we really emphasize "tuning" the kick so it blends seamlessly with the overall body motion. I.E. We prefer that no particular aspect of the stroke be more noticeable or apparent than any other.

What's your definition?

blainesapprentice
January 24th, 2007, 10:15 PM
Well...I am certainly faster with more rotation. Flat swimming was really hurting my stroke rate and my cut through the water.

KaizenSwimmer
January 24th, 2007, 10:16 PM
But when sprinting, how do you determine the proper trade-off between stroke rate and stroke length?

I've always thought of it as more art than science. I can't think of a way to quantify that tradeoff.
When coaching sprinters, I want them to work pretty tirelessly on developing a fluent, economical, relaxed, integrated (every way I can think of to define "effective) stroke at low speed and low rate. And then we work on raising both speed and rate progressively.

As both increase, there are inevitably times when they "trade" Stroke Length (or leisure) for speed ineffectively. We make note of that and try again. And again. And again. Recognizing that perfection is unattainable, we just keep working on it until we run out of time -- that day or that season.

One of the items I had them do pretty regularly was "speed bursts" of three to six full cycles at max speed. While doing these speed bursts, they were trying to achieve the best possible combination of length, rate and power. When you first do them, you generally don't do them well. Either too slow, or too rough. So you keep practicing and gradually hone your ability to strike an effective balance among them.

This is an example of the kind of emphasis I give to nervous system tuning. Physiology "happens" during these sprints (alactic or something - not even sure) but I'm less interested in that than in the nervous system adaptations.

I see swim golf was mentioned in several of these posts, but I'll comment on that separately.

KaizenSwimmer
January 24th, 2007, 10:23 PM
golf.
if by adding a stroke you can't swim any faster then i would say that stroke is wasted effort.

This isn't a simple question.
Swim Golf scores infer that strokes and seconds have equal value. But the closer you get to your max speed, the more value you give to seconds. While you might aim to "trade" one stroke for at least one second at 70% of max speed, you'd probably be happy to "trade" one stroke for a half or quarter second as you get near and above 90% of max speed.

Which suggest that some increase in slippage is inevitable as you swim faster and faster. However, that's not to say that you just accept it. The Continuous Improvement swimmer is always trying to be a bit more stingy in trading strokes for seconds. Or more importantly to feel a bit more control and ease as they near top speed.

To get the most accurate sense of how good a golf score is you should also factor in HR or RPE. A score of let's say 48 (20 strokes and 28 seconds) is worth far more at a HR of 140 than at a HR of 170. Or you may find that a different combination of strokes and seconds - yielding the same score - allows for a lower HR.

The Fortress
January 24th, 2007, 10:30 PM
I hope you understand that's a relative term.

I do, that's why I said it was just linguistics.

I find freestyle to be confounding except in a 50 where I don't think, I just turn on the remote control. Sometimes it's as confounding as breaststroke, although somehow I go relatively much faster.

I also think you need to have efficient speed. Since sprints are decided by such small margins, I'm quite sure that the efficiency of every stroke and every turn makes a difference (as does proper training, having fast twitch muscles and weight lifting). I don't count myself as particularly efficient on freestyle. That's why I read all these freestyle threads. I think I'm still at the high SR end when sprinting and getting by on strength as opposed to feel. Still think it's not the worst strategy ever for the 50. But definitely still trying to work on the other stuff. Just gotta keep at it. After reading this thread, I think I need to be more Mindful of my rotation on the catch.

I think I may be flat swimming the sprints. But FlyQueen says that's the trend. Blainesapprentice seems to be rotating on sprints for more speed? I would think you'd have to reduce rotation while you're increasing SR. What's the thinking on that?

Also, what do you think of that "finish" issue mentioned earlier in this thread?

I think I need to do more of those "speed bursts" you're talking about. My to do list is getting really long. It's hard to prioritize sometimes. I'm going to be a "serial" swimmer tomorrow morning. I love, love, love "serial" swimming. I'm doing Ande's 10 x 75 set (fff, ffb, fbb, etc.)

P.S. I hope you're going to comment on that straight arms vs. flex elbow thread. I'd love to hear what you think. Another point I'm somewhat confounded on.

KaizenSwimmer
January 24th, 2007, 10:30 PM
I tend to take a zillion strokes and swim really fast. So I can get a really good swolf score, but only because I can do the 50 in a relatively quick time.

Morgan, what's your best golf score and what combo of strokes and seconds did you use?
My best is 57 which was 32 sec at 25 strokes. I'm a distance swimmer.
When I coached the Army sprinters, my best male swimmer had a best golf score of 41 - 16 strokes and 25 seconds. He went 44.1 for the 100 Free.
My two best women both scored 48 - 18 strokes and 30 seconds. They both went 52 for the 100.
These scores were all from pushoff.

poolraat
January 24th, 2007, 10:58 PM
I have to confess to being unsure what the "TI way" to kick is. Except that we really emphasize "tuning" the kick so it blends seamlessly with the overall body motion. I.E. We prefer that no particular aspect of the stroke be more noticeable or apparent than any other.

What's your definition?

Timing the kick with the rotation and hand entry rather than just a random "thrashing" of the legs. I try to time the kick to drive the rotation with the hand entry so that as I reach full extension my hips have reached the point of max. rotation. It's hard to put into words, it's more of a "feel" thing. I believe you have alluded to this elsewhere on the forum.

blainesapprentice
January 24th, 2007, 11:07 PM
Morgan, what's your best golf score and what combo of strokes and seconds did you use?
My best is 57 which was 32 sec at 25 strokes. I'm a distance swimmer.
When I coached the Army sprinters, my best male swimmer had a best golf score of 41 - 16 strokes and 25 seconds. He went 44.1 for the 100 Free.
My two best women both scored 48 - 18 strokes and 30 seconds. They both went 52 for the 100.
These scores were all from pushoff.

My best score is a 44. 26 seconds 18 strokes but I have no idea how I did that.

Normally, I average more around 48 as well...swimming a 27 and taking 21 strokes.

But even that takes a great deal of effort and concentration and I can only do one at a time, with a good deal of rest if I have to do it again...otherwise it gets ugly.

My best 100time is a 55.1 but I have been swimming disgusting 58s this season and I do not know what I am doing wrong:shakeshead::confused:

Muppet
January 25th, 2007, 12:46 AM
Endurance is underrated. Sprinting is boring. Who wants it to be over so fast?

Muppet is right. :banana: :dedhorse:

At the risk of pissing off la bella Fortresse, SCY is a bunch of turns and streamlining whether you're sprinting or swimming the 1650.

I love the use of :banana: :dedhorse: in there... well placed!

geochuck
January 25th, 2007, 08:56 AM
Please everyone when you give your golf scores, could you tell us whether your scores are for meters or yards? It does make a difference.

Is the TI kick somewhat like the GP kick? Or is it exclusive that only TI swimmers use it.

Are leisurely catches truly leisurely or just look that way?

blainesapprentice
January 25th, 2007, 10:33 AM
sorry my scores were for yards with a push off.

Muppet
January 25th, 2007, 10:49 AM
I do not know what I am doing wrong:shakeshead::confused:

You need to stop going to class and concentrate less time on education and more time on swimming ;) ;) :joker:

Dont worry, though, Morgan. I have similar issues in-season as well. With the 100 fly, I have yet to break :60 when it is not zones or nationals. In 05-06, swam 1:01's all year, then bust out a 56.13 (PB) at Nationals. Go figure. Just train hard and it will come!

lefty
January 25th, 2007, 12:37 PM
Hi Morgan. I've heard that sprinters should swim flatter than distance swimmers. If you look at Cullen Jones, Natalie Coughlin, Jodie Henry, Gary Hall Jr., Neil Walker, etc. they do not rotate a lot. The TREND seems to be to swim flatter when you sprint and rotate more on distance ... just my 2 cents ... or as my first graders would spell it sents ... :2cents:

Power and speed in a 50 comes from your legs. If you are not exceptionally strong you will have difficulty rotating your body and integrating your pull while kicking at 100% effort. But even if you are exceptionally strong, your 50 body position will be flatter than your mile (or atleast should be). KaizenSwimmer is right on, the best sprinters are the ones who can kick like mad, but strong enough to maintain some sort of reasonable stroke.

gull
January 25th, 2007, 12:41 PM
When I coached the Army sprinters, my best male swimmer had a best golf score of 41 - 16 strokes and 25 seconds. He went 44.1 for the 100 Free. My two best women both scored 48 - 18 strokes and 30 seconds. They both went 52 for the 100.

Even so, that isn't true race pace. What did they change, if anything, in a race? My point is that sprinting, for me at least, seems like a completely different stroke. Perhaps it's because I trained for middle distance and, lacking sprinting ability, never properly learned how to sprint.

The Fortress
January 25th, 2007, 01:08 PM
Even so, that isn't true race pace. What did they change, if anything, in a race? My point is that sprinting, for me at least, seems like a completely different stroke. Perhaps it's because I trained for middle distance and, lacking sprinting ability, never properly learned how to sprint.

I think Gull has a point here. I swim freestyle completely differently depending on whether I'm drop dead sprinting or swimming any kind of 200+ freestyle set. And I learned how to sprint. Still feels really different.

scyfreestyler
January 25th, 2007, 01:15 PM
Different as in you kick harder and catch/pull with less/no delay? That is different but I would not call it a whole other stroke. I think it is a variation of freestyle that is adjusted to yield a faster turnover rate in the arms and a kick at maximum effort.

The Fortress
January 25th, 2007, 01:22 PM
Different as in you kick harder and catch/pull with less/no delay? That is different but I would not call it a whole other stroke. I think it is a variation of freestyle that is adjusted to yield a faster turnover rate in the arms and a kick at maximum effort.

I guess that's accurate. Plus, I have straighter arms when I sprint. It's basically,

Sprint: straight arms, finish, kick hard, high SR, catch/pull with less/no delay

or

Everything else: flexed elbow, more front quadrant, more rotatation, less kicking, delay on catch, more breathing, lower SPL

So, its seems different.

LindsayNB
January 25th, 2007, 01:38 PM
I also have the sensation that my sprint freestyle is quite different from my longer distance freestyle. Clearly both are "freestyle" so it isn't a different stroke in that sense but it feels like sprinting is not just the same thing done faster. I have been wondering if this is just because I don't have the skill to maintain the timing and technique I use in middle distance at higher speed, or whether there are real concrete differences in timing. I know that with butterfly I swim "distance fly" very differently than "sprint fly" and while they are both butterfly I think that minimizing the differences to a few differences in timing would be to miss the point because the difference between poor swimming and good swimming is often a matter of timing. For example look at the effort Terry puts into synchronizing his kick and hand entry.

geochuck
January 25th, 2007, 02:00 PM
There is too much thinking and not enough doing.

If I had to think of the differrence between sprinting and distance swimming I would not try do do anything. I just breathe less and swim harder for a sprint and slow down the pace for distance.

Warren
January 25th, 2007, 02:14 PM
the stroke doesnt change, only the stroke rate does.

scyfreestyler
January 25th, 2007, 02:43 PM
I am actually with George on this one. Just get in and do it. There are no careers or multi million dollar advertising contracts on the line here so far as I know.

Of course, if investigation and critique of stroke are as much fun as the swimming itself then have at it.

Paul Smith
January 25th, 2007, 05:37 PM
When "shifting" into sprint mode (50/100), your turnover will increase, your kick will pick up and your body position should naturally flatten out.....very little rotation is occuring.

I also agree that the successful sprinters these days (USS & Masters) all have incredible kicks.....Ian Crocker actually used an underwater dolphin kick 15m off his start and all 3 turns several years ago when he went 42+ and won the 100 free at NCAA's....

The Fortress
January 25th, 2007, 08:43 PM
I am actually with George on this one. Just get in and do it. There are no careers or multi million dollar advertising contracts on the line here so far as I know.

You and George are right of course. But, I don't know, George seems to do pretty well $-wise in his swimming profession!

When my "to do" list gets too long in my mind, I hit erase and just swim or only think about one thing. Too much thinking in the water can be counter-productive. Happy to read the on-line debates though! I think investigation of stroke is pretty interesting.

Matt, since you have a 7 year old swimmer, you probably get Splash magazine. There was a blurb in the last issue about not thinking when racing. A coach dubbed it, "Unconscious Competence." We all need a little of that sometime.

Glad Paul weighed in too. At least I know I'm sprinting right. Thanks!

blainesapprentice
January 25th, 2007, 09:54 PM
I definately have a kick haha. I kick like a bat out of hell pretty much...so much so that when we do lactic sets, my coach often has us swim a few and then kick one and swim some more, and I often average only 3 seconds slower on the kick than the swim. I could be a professional kicker. Unfortunatly, being a kicker has led me to...wear a size 10 or 12 jeans for my thighs and need a size 7 for my waist. It's cool. Thunder Thighs.

KaizenSwimmer
January 26th, 2007, 07:31 AM
Timing the kick with the rotation and hand entry rather than just a random "thrashing" of the legs. I try to time the kick to drive the rotation with the hand entry so that as I reach full extension my hips have reached the point of max. rotation.

Okay, that's optimized timing for a 2-beat kick. I wouldn't claim credit for it as a "TI" way of kicking. I simply observed that's how the best 2-beat swimmers time it then examined my own stroke and realized mine was rather shapeless in comparison. I could feel a fair number of mini-flutters between major beats, inconsistency in the strength of the beat, sideways drifts of my legs, etc. That came from not paying attention to it and I realized that the leg actions I was using were consuming energy but not adding much to my stroke.

My process for correcting it has included more attention to my balance and symmetry. All those non-propulsive leg actions were compensating for something in my stroke; I needed to become aware of what that was and patiently reprogram my stroke (those errors were burned in by countless millions of inefficient strokes over 40 years). It's been ongoing for 18 months now and I feel myself making tiny advances over time. I can do it very consistently at up to about 70% of max effort but consistency at race speed still eludes me. If there's a TI aspect to this it's that we teach a process-oriented way of practice that emphasizes focus on mindful imprinting of the sort described.

To get a sense of what the coordination looks like -- while also understanding how elusive that coordination can be, check out this short video of Hannah Stockbauer. Because it's slow-motion, you can really observe the "diagonal" timing of right-foot-drive with left-hand-entry and vice versa. You might also notice that while her left foot coordinates exactly with her right hand, her right foot is often slightly behind the entry of her left hand, slightly reducing the effect of each kick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmEAuEoXkoI

And this clip of Laure Manaudou is longer, but harder to study. There's a bit of underwater, but you can't observe the coordination quite as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O84yqGoeAF4

Both are examples of a "pure" 2-beat with none of the energy-dissipating extraneous movements I've been trying to eliminate from my own kick.

Anyway, this'll give you an idea why I don't feel I can afford to waste time doing kickboard sets which neither mimic the movement I'm trying to achieve, nor do anything to help me improve my coordination.

KaizenSwimmer
January 26th, 2007, 07:41 AM
My best score is a 44. 26 seconds 18 strokes but I have no idea how I did that.

Normally, I average more around 48 as well...swimming a 27 and taking 21 strokes.

Those are hugely impressive scores. Unless you're counting stroke cycles rather than strokes. Just to clarify, your 18 strokes for 50 yards was 18 hand hits, not 36 hand hits? If the latter, then your golf score would actually be 62. The scores I cited were for 18 hand hits (or armstrokes) per 50 yards

If your scores are indeed 44 to 48, it's very hard to understand why you have only been able to swim a 58. That would be more congruent with a score around 60 or above.

KaizenSwimmer
January 26th, 2007, 07:50 AM
Even so, that isn't true race pace. What did they change, if anything, in a race? My point is that sprinting, for me at least, seems like a completely different stroke. Perhaps it's because I trained for middle distance and, lacking sprinting ability, never properly learned how to sprint.

True. The point I was making about golf scores is that your best golf score -- because it gives equal value to strokes and seconds -- will require enough care and patience in stroking that it will inhibit your ability to swim fast.
Thus it's helpful to track your best score at different stroke counts and at different speeds.
What's your best possible score at, say 27, 29 or 31 strokes per 50.

Or conversely what's the lowest stroke count you can achieve at 36, 34 or 32 seconds?

And what RPE do you sense at each combination?

We used the super-low scores for the Army swimmers as one end of the spectrum of stroke tuning we did. Low speed, low rate and high stroke length swimming allowed them to examine and refine small details in the stroke.

The speed bursts were the other end of that spectrum. Trying to hold on to as much as possible of what they'd imprinted at low speed, while maximizing rate, speed and power.

What your best score could be of great value in is for imprinting how you'd like to feel and swim during the first quarter of that 500 race with Geek. That will allow you to begin with decent speed, establish good position, yet still come home like gangbusters because your SR and HR are well-controlled at the beginning.

KaizenSwimmer
January 26th, 2007, 07:54 AM
There is too much thinking and not enough doing.

This sentiment is a consistent refrain in your posts. Does this mean that when you teach a lesson, your instruction consists of "Just do it."

Or do you consider that thinking and doing are mutually exclusive?

KaizenSwimmer
January 26th, 2007, 07:57 AM
I hope you're going to comment on that straight arms vs. flex elbow thread. I'd love to hear what you think. Another point I'm somewhat confounded on.

Haven't seen that thread. I teach and practice a relaxed, compact recovery. Detail on why/how in the March-April issue of USMS Swimmer mag.

geochuck
January 26th, 2007, 08:04 AM
Thanks Terry those are two great videos of 2 beat kicks, I had never seen the one of Hanah. I have a better one of Laurie but it is in the computer at home. I will post it in April when I get back to Vancouver.

I do prefer the 6 beat kick for myself - it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

Be nice Terry I have made this my be nice to Terry week - The just do it is about a race. I am not going to think about my every move during competition. Actions do become automatic if you have the tech down (not saying my tech is as perfect as yours Terry) and do not have to be thought about at all times. After a race I will figure out if anything went wrong. I do my plan and thinking before a race.

The Fortress
January 26th, 2007, 10:19 AM
Both are examples of a "pure" 2-beat with none of the energy-dissipating extraneous movements I've been trying to eliminate from my own kick.

Anyway, this'll give you an idea why I don't feel I can afford to waste time doing kickboard sets which neither mimic the movement I'm trying to achieve, nor do anything to help me improve my coordination.

I still think this "waste time" sentiment only applies to the non sprint distances you prefer. For those, I'm quite sure that kick is very efficient. But no one can sprint with a two beat kick. Because my "to do" list can get long with respect to freestyle when I'm at practice, I have not put the TI 2-beat kick on my list. I never swim anything over a 100 free in a meet and don't plan to, so I have other priorities. As for sprinting, I think Paul, Ande and George are correct. So I'll keep doing kick sets. But not with a kickboard. It's not wasted time for me.

swimr4life
January 26th, 2007, 10:33 AM
I still think this "waste time" sentiment only applies to the non sprint distances you prefer. For those, I'm quite sure that kick is very efficient. But no one can sprint with a two beat kick. Because my "to do" list can get long with respect to freestyle when I'm at practice, I have not put the TI 2-beat kick on my list. I never swim anything over a 100 free in a meet and don't plan to, so I have other priorities. As for sprinting, I think Paul, Ande and George are correct. So I'll keep doing kick sets. But not with a kickboard. It's not wasted time for me.

I agree Fort! I'm a sprinter and my kick is definitely my strength. I have no idea how many beats it has but I KNOW it is more like 6-8! I kick with and without a kick board. With and without fins. It works for me. I do not use paddles at all. I rarely do pull sets and when I do, I concentrate on breathing patterns and lengthening my stroke, not speed. I think everyone has to experiment and see what is best for them personally and there is no "right" or "wrong" way to train. You can try things suggested on the forum but, if they don't work for YOU, don't do it! I've tried doing a 2 beat kick for longer races.....didn't work for me. I felt like I was dragging an anchor. If I get into trying to time my kick with a certain part of my stroke, I get discombobulated! Its kind of like asking a golfer, "Do you inhale or exhale on your swing?" You start thinking too much. I think that is what George was trying to say in his "just do it" statement. Yes, try it in practice. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it because it is the new trend!

Paul Smith
January 26th, 2007, 10:56 AM
Ms. Fortress..........this is "masters" as I always say so far be it for me to tell you or anyone what they should do......if you want to kick with a board go fo it.

However........IF I was your coach I'd be on you big time for that and ask that you use it selectively. Instead I'd have you doing some of the sets enjoy:

Power Kick: 25 or 50.....push off in good streamline and kick (any stroke) for as long and hard as you can underwater....when you need to surface swim smooth and easy (free or back) to the wall (if its a 50, go right into the second lap as you did on the first).

Power sprints: This is actually something I posted from Nick Brunellis blog but love it: 6 x 25s (or 50's) all from a dive, 3 without fins, 3 with. Focus on technique but also really think about turns and finish. Best wit shorter fins like zoomers.

Paniful kicks: with your board, 25's all out but the board is used as a "block" with theface of the board vertical (like a wall).

Swim kicks: 100s or 200s; easy free or back but extend your kick off the turns with an attempt to dolphin 10-15 yards before surfacing. maintain perfect stroke on the swim portion, but it is a partial recovery.

By the way.....evil john HATES any of these sets...mosly because he has little weeny sz 10 feet (I'm a 15).

The Fortress
January 26th, 2007, 11:01 AM
Ms. Fortress..........this is "masters" as I always say so far be it for me to tell you or anyone what they should do......if you want to kick with a board go fo it..

Mr. Smith ... I think you did not read my post!!! I said that I do NOT use a kickboard. It hurts my shoulders and I like kicking without one better anyway. When I kick, I pretty much try to do the things you listed (those are great sets and I will have to try the specific ones!), except for the "painful" kick one that involves a board. I also do a lot of monofin "shooters," which I love. Then, I take it off and SDK, as Ande suggested. I think my SDKs are improving.

I have read that Mr. GoodSmith hate fins. I didn't realize he hated kicking too.

I have somewhat small feet too. And I'm short. Trying to make up for it with a strong core.

ande
January 26th, 2007, 11:03 AM
excellent sets paul,
thanks for the sets education

ande


Ms. Fortress..........this is "masters" as I always say so far be it for me to tell you or anyone what they should do......if you want to kick with a board go fo it.

However........IF I was your coach I'd be on you big time for that and ask that you use it selectively. Instead I'd have you doing some of the sets enjoy:

Power Kick: 25 or 50.....push off in good streamline and kick (any stroke) for as long and hard as you can underwater....when you need to surface swim smooth and easy (free or back) to the wall (if its a 50, go right into the second lap as you did on the first).

Power sprints: This is actually something I posted from Nick Brunellis blog but love it: 6 x 25s (or 50's) all from a dive, 3 without fins, 3 with. Focus on technique but also really think about turns and finish. Best wit shorter fins like zoomers.

Paniful kicks: with your board, 25's all out but the board is used as a "block" with theface of the board vertical (like a wall).

Swim kicks: 100s or 200s; easy free or back but extend your kick off the turns with an attempt to dolphin 10-15 yards before surfacing. maintain perfect stroke on the swim portion, but it is a partial recovery.

By the way.....evil john HATES any of these sets...mosly because he has little weeny sz 10 feet (I'm a 15).

poolraat
January 26th, 2007, 11:31 AM
To get a sense of what the coordination looks like -- while also understanding how elusive that coordination can be, check out this short video of Hannah Stockbauer. Because it's slow-motion, you can really observe the "diagonal" timing of right-foot-drive with left-hand-entry and vice versa. You might also notice that while her left foot coordinates exactly with her right hand, her right foot is often slightly behind the entry of her left hand, slightly reducing the effect of each kick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmEAuEoXkoI

And this clip of Laure Manaudou is longer, but harder to study. There's a bit of underwater, but you can't observe the coordination quite as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O84yqGoeAF4

Both are examples of a "pure" 2-beat with none of the energy-dissipating extraneous movements I've been trying to eliminate from my own kick.


Thanks Terry. Those are great examples of the kick. And just is this last week I am starting to get a feel for the drive the kick adds when the timing is right. Now back to my original question regarding the backstroke kick and optimal timing. I use a 6 beat on backstroke but find that I am sometimes kicking against the rotation instead of timing the kick with the rotation. Do you have any good video examples and can you recommend any drills that will help optimise the timing?

Paul Smith
January 26th, 2007, 12:21 PM
Mr. Smith ... I think you did not read my post!!! I said that I do NOT use a kickboard. It hurts my shoulders and I like kicking without one better anyway. When I kick, I pretty much try to do the things you listed (those are great sets and I will have to try the specific ones!), except for the "painful" kick one that involves a board. I also do a lot of monofin "shooters," which I love. Then, I take it off and SDK, as Ande suggested. I think my SDKs are improving.

I have read that Mr. GoodSmith hate fins. I didn't realize he hated kicking too.

I have somewhat small feet too. And I'm short. Trying to make up for it with a strong core.

Ms. Fortress......I already have a wife, a bunch of coaches, a dog and a bunch of staff that tell me I don't listen so I don't need you jumping on the band wagon!! :lolup:

By the way...another set that I saw that Cal uses to practice "race pace" technique is to run a short distance down the side of the pool and dive in just out side the flags and go into your turn at speed....

Gary Hall has done variations of this as well that would include then getting back out and doing addtional dryland (push ups, boxing, etc.), then back into some other type of full speed swim.....

The Fortress
January 26th, 2007, 12:37 PM
Ms. Fortress......I already have a wife, a bunch of coaches, a dog and a bunch of staff that tell me I don't listen so I don't need you jumping on the band wagon!! :lolup:

I have a bunch of those too, but I had to jump anyway.:lolup: I forgive you for not reading carefully and for the :lolup: because of the great kicking advice you provided!

I just didn't want Terry to think I was being UnMindful or using unnecessary equipment. ;) If I used a kickboard, he'd jump on me too.

Paul Smith
January 26th, 2007, 01:04 PM
A couple more very interesrting workouts from Nick. I like what he does because so there is so much emphasis on technique and race pace.....also he's does use all the "toys"; board, fins, paddles & snorkel as well as a real mix between speed work and endurance training even though he will only focus on the 50 & 100 for 2008.....the major differance being he's young enough to be my son....so I have to adapt and instead of doing this type of training 3-4x a week for me its one a days between 2000-3000yds with speed work 1-2x and the others recovery days.

__________________________________________________ __
Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject:
Wednesday morning's set:

10 times through the following:
1 x 50 easy on 1 min
1 x 50 at 200 pace on 1 min
1 x 50 all out on 1 min

The idea of this simple set is to not lose sight of the stroke you race! in the 50 easy don’t be sloppy. In the 50 at 200 pace work your stroke not tempo to get your goal time. And in the all out 50, try to put it all together and go faster with a perfect stroke. I feel like this set helps me set my stroke up while working hard. Sometimes when we do sets that are say 10 x 50's all out, my stroke becomes a mess after number 4 and then I try to just go as fast as I can. Most people can relate to this in the sense that you just want to race and beat the person next to you and if that involves not thinking about your stroke then so be it. BUT that won't make you the best swimmer you can be. Its all about swimming smart AND working hard at the same time!

-Nick Brunelli
__________________________________________________ __

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:48 am Post subject:
wednesday jan 24th:

AM yards about 5,000
2500 warm up about
30 x 50 on 1 min
5x #1 - #3 desc to 200 pace :25s
#4 - #5 easy
#6 all out(95%) :22.8's

1000 warm down

PM yards about 6,000
500 warm up

3 times through the following:
2 x 150 kick desc. 1-2 on 2:45
2 x 100 free swim overkick 1st and 3rd 25's on 1:30
2 x 75 free pull on 1:05

2 times through the following with fins:
4 x 50's free drill on 1min
4 x 125 free desc from 85% to 95% 1-4 on 1:45
4 x 50 stroke drill on 1min
4 x 75 fly/bk/br by 25 on 1:10


20 x 25s working mid pool turn and finishing with a turn on :40

4 x 15's from the blocks on about 3:00 working start to breakout

KaizenSwimmer
January 26th, 2007, 02:41 PM
The just do it is about a race. I am not going to think about my every move during competition.

We agree on this. Overthinking a race can lead to loss of flow and inhibition, if not paralysis.
I usually recommend one focal point for shorter races. Even more useful is to pinpoint a particular kinesthetic "memory" you can associate with your best races or training swims. When I concentrate as keenly as I can on that kind of sense memory before a race, it helps me "find the groove" more quickly.

In a mile or longer race, I usually feel like I have the time to sequence through three or more focal points. I will have tested and rehearsed them many times in training before using them in a race.

There's been a proven linkage between focus on process, rather than outcomes, in high performance in many disciplines. Successful athletes mentally divide competitions into tasks that lead to peak performance, then focus on executing each task, rather than on whether they'll win. That's thinking and doing.

KaizenSwimmer
January 26th, 2007, 02:50 PM
Power Kick: 25 or 50.....push off in good streamline and kick (any stroke) for as long and hard as you can underwater....when you need to surface swim smooth and easy (free or back) to the wall (if its a 50, go right into the second lap as you did on the first).

Swim kicks: 100s or 200s; easy free or back but extend your kick off the turns with an attempt to dolphin 10-15 yards before surfacing. maintain perfect stroke on the swim portion, but it is a partial recovery.

These are examples of sets similar to those I'd give sprinters. As I've said we didn't do a single lap of kickboard work while I coached the Army sprinters. No one ever complained that their legs felt unprepared for fast swimming in races.

But we did many exercises intended to give them a keener sense of how to optimally integrate the kick with the whole stroke. Paul's sets would promote that, as well as promote a better sense of how to kick underwater on the pushoff.

The benefit of extended underwater "overkicking" followed by breakout and "maintenance" of the kick in a slowed-down whole stroke is that the extra resistance experienced underwater heightens awareness of how to kick effectively, rather than just whipping the water into a froth -- which I've seen occur in far too many kickboard sets.

Muppet
January 26th, 2007, 04:49 PM
One thing my team has been doing a considerable amount of in the last year or so is the 4-position kick. Back, left side, front, right side. No board involved. It has been pretty effective I think in focusing on good leg technique.

The Fortress
January 27th, 2007, 05:40 PM
A couple more very interesrting workouts from Nick. I like what he does because so there is so much emphasis on technique and race pace.....also he's does use all the "toys"; board, fins, paddles & snorkel as well as a real mix between speed work and endurance

Mr. Smith ....

Thanks! Those sets look pretty fun. How far out from shoulder surgery is Nick now? What is he doing with that snorkle? I have a "dorkle" too, but haven't used it much. Have trouble flipping with it. Does it just allow him to think about his stroke without worrying about breathing?

Mr Kaizen ...

I sometimes focus on one "particular kinesthetic memory or sensation" or "keenly focus" or "sequence or process through" things awhile before a race, just not in those words and definitely not minutes before I step on the blocks. I find it's generally better not to overthink right before racing. If I do, I think positive thoughts and block out anything potentially negative, like, I "hope" I hit the flags right on my backstroke turn. I'm also not averse to listening to my ipod before races. I obviously do a lot of thinking in practice and on this forum, so I'd rather not be too cerebral at race time.

I don't mind thinking about winning either. Swimming is not only about the clock or the process. Sometimes it's about agression and winning your race, even if you don't do a PB. The last race I swam I did exactly that. My only goal was to beat my secret nemesis a couple lanes over from me (and grab a Top 10 time). Did it. No kinesthetic feeling before hand. Just blocked out the shoulder pain with a little biofreeze and caffeine and swam with a lot of desire. Splits were awful, but I didn't really care (breaststroke was involved).

geochuck
January 27th, 2007, 06:14 PM
Terry you make it sound as if everything is sooo complicated. Why don't you explain this simply. I think it better to use words that are simple and straight forward. Something like think what your strategy for the race is then just do it.

None of this stuff for me (Even more useful is to pinpoint a particular kinesthetic "memory" you can associate with your best races or training swims.)

I once had an English professor who said it is too wordy, when I wrote an article in school. He said George keep it simple. That is what I try to do.

KaizenSwimmer
January 28th, 2007, 07:42 AM
Terry you make it sound as if everything is sooo complicated. Why don't you explain this simply.

George,
What is "sooo complicated" about recalling the best you've ever felt in a race and then concentrating on that feeling so keenly that you're almost reliving it? Are you certain you never did that, even if subconsciously?

And what is "sooo complicated" about using that mental tool in practice as well to reinforce it and increase the likelihood that you can "find your groove" quickly and dependably when it's important?

What other guidance system is available to a swimmer during a race? Unlike runners, swimmers can't glance at a watch or HR monitor to gauge pace or effort. Unlike cyclists we can't check our speedometer or cadence meter. The primary thing that's left is kinesthetic awareness.

Further there's well documented science which supports that approach. It's well known that the same pattern of brain activity happens when we think about an action intensely as when we actually do it and that sort of thinking has always been found to increase the accuracy and consistency of the actions associated with it.

What you don't ever seem to consider is that what came naturally and instinctively to you 50 years ago, doesn't come naturally to most people.

So here's a challenge to do more than belittle or dismiss with a couple of quickly-typed sentences. Please advocate an alternative and present arguments in support of your own position, which counter those I've presented above in support of mine.

geochuck
January 28th, 2007, 07:48 AM
Sorry Terry I should not have commented like that I have removed that. I realize you are quoting documented facts. But rather than what others have to say I want to hear what you have to say.

Many publshed facts are not true and the assumption that everything printed is true is a mistake.

I myself never rethought bad races I always looked forward to better myself.

KaizenSwimmer
January 28th, 2007, 08:24 AM
My only goal was to beat my secret nemesis a couple lanes over from me (and grab a Top 10 time). Did it. No kinesthetic feeling before hand. Just blocked out the shoulder pain with a little biofreeze and caffeine and swam with a lot of desire. Splits were awful, but I didn't really care (breaststroke was involved).

Congratulations. You had a goal for the race -- to beat a rival -- and it worked. That's outcome-oriented thinking and is indeed the way most people do most things. So long as you're happy with the results there's no reason to change or seek to improve on your approach...

...But your example is anecdotal -- one person, one race -- and there's a tremendous amount of of human-behavior study (dating back 70 years to
Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs) which documents that excellent performers and over-achievers in all sorts of fields, are process-oriented rather than outcome-oriented.

Here's an anecdote of my own that illustrates the process-oriented approach.
I swam the 1000 in a meet yesterday. I've felt weak and tired for about 10 days. Thursday night in practice I was as exhausted - while swimming slowly -- as I can recall feeling in ages.

Still I wanted to give a good account in my 1000 and knew that "being aggressive" would likely lead to failure. So I decided on a series of focal points for each 250, rehearsed those physically in warmup, then while waiting out the 1000 heat prior to mine, concentrated on the feeling I wanted to achieve in the first 250.

While swimming I felt relatively weak, became significantly more tired than usual and actually felt as if I was falling apart progressively during the final 500. And yet my splits say I swam very well and I easily beat a couple of people in the heat who swam much more "aggressively" than I did.
My series of focal points and splits:
1st 250 3:08 "Marionette Arms" and Soft Hands
2nd 250 3:09 Spear hands more strongly to my "targets" (SPL increased by 1)
3rd 250 3:07 Synchronize opposite-leg drive with that spearing action.
4th 250 3:03 Increase pressure on hands/forearms without losing the hand/forearm/elbow/upperarm position I'd established on the 1st 250 (SPL increased by 1 again)

Final time of 12:27 not terribly impressive but a seasonal best by four seconds.

Is this "overthinking?" Certainly didn't feel that way, as I had over 3 minutes to work out each of those focal points, but also I've practiced that kind of thinking on every training set.

Would I be able to think like that in a 50 or 100 -- or advocate it to someone I was training? No, but I have taught my swimmers to do appropriate mental rehearsal for shorter races and, without exception, they've said that shifting from outcome-oriented approach (which they had all employed previously) to a process-oriented approach reduced anxiety, increased focus and confidence, and helped them perform better, with more consistency. Dozens of swimmers, hundreds of races.

Other than your single anecdote can you present a persuasive argument in favor of the outcome-oriented approach?

KaizenSwimmer
January 28th, 2007, 08:37 AM
I myself never rethought bad races I always looked forward to better myself.

George, you're up early!

I do think there's an unconscious instinct among most people to do "mental training" of a sort. What I'm trying to do with some of these posts is explain some of the techniques that exist which have the potential to help you swim better and enjoy the experience more, so they can do mental training in a more thoughtful way.

I've increasingly come to feel that the most helpful thing I can do for swimmers isn't teaching better stroke mechanics but giving people the tools to reach their full potential. As I saw that some of my students managed to progress MUCH farther than others -- and not because they had greater physical gifts -- I became much more interested in the behaviors and attitudes that characterize "overachievers" and have been excited to see how much study there has been on this phenomenon and how well documented and codified those behaviors are.

Psychologists are convinced that overachievement -- just like a firmer catch -- is a skill that can be learned.

After thinking and writing about and teaching and practicing stroke technique so intensively for 17 years, there's not as much remaining for me to discover and describe, so my attention has been increasingly on describing and teaching the "habits of mastery." Unlike endurance or power, for which we are all experiencing our limits, there's almost limitless upside for most people in pursing mastery and our capacity for doing so should only increase with age.

geochuck
January 28th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Always up early 4:30 am for my 3 or 4 mugs of coffee. Have to do some Video analysis stuff early each day while the fight for internet connection is not too hard.

Then 7 minutes per video and to send back replies. And occasionally look at this forum and give my short statements.

I swam my first race at 5 years of age 68 years ago, my coach Jimmy Thompson had us pulling down the center line of the body way before any other coach did. He said the strength is in the center. You do not see mountain climbers using two ropes, the both hands are lifting the body by one rope with the hands close to the body.

As time went by I worked on refining my stroke to a point that I found to be easy. I had may problems getting in pool time when younger as our club only had access to the pool 1.5 hours 3 days a week and the club had 200 members. As I became older I did lots of work swim training playing water polo until 18, When I got sick with Infectious Mono Nucleousis after that it was weakness and fatigue for several years. I continued to workout very lightly and play waterpolo until 1958. It was difficult for me to compete with these guys who were training 5,000 to 10,000 yards a day but I stayed at it did well - rated in the top 10 sprinters in the world. My stroke was better suited for distance swimming but was not able to workout enough to race those kind of races.

I had always taught swimming as a child our club used to teach lessons on Friday nights, The Friday night swim club, kids paid $1.00 to have lessons for 26 weeks (pretty cheap even in those days).

In 1962 someone asked me if I would help him get ready to train for a 15 mile race and found that I no longer felt tired when pacing him so started to train for marathon swims.

I still get swelling of the lympth glands when I work out but it has not been like when I was 18.

Wow I am becoming long winded.

chaos
January 28th, 2007, 10:26 AM
He said the strength is in the center. You do not see mountain climbers using two ropes, the both hands are lifting the body by one rope with the hands close to the body.


I don't know that i would agree with this analogy. Certainly while carrying heavy objects (ie:600 lb. granite counter tops) the only possible way to do this is to engage both arms in the task and center the load as to distribute it evenly. chin ups and pull ups are typically done with a shoulder width or wider grip. double ropes are often employed in climbing sports (rock, ice etc). Using a rope to ascend is usually reserved for situations when a more aesthetic option (free climbing) is not possible. in a perfect situation (climbing a ladder) the arms would follow a shoulder width "track" naturally.

poolraat
January 28th, 2007, 11:26 AM
I myself never rethought bad races I always looked forward to better myself.

I've been brooding over how lousy I did yesterday in the 1 hour swim. I'm glad you said this. After seeing this comment, I'm going to try and forget about it and move forward. Now it's time to forget the distance stuff and concentrate on sprinting.

The Fortress
January 28th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Congratulations. You had a goal for the race -- to beat a rival -- and it worked. That's outcome-oriented thinking and is indeed the way most people do most things. So long as you're happy with the results there's no reason to change or seek to improve on your approach.

Congratulations on your race. It sounds like you accomplished what you set out to do -- very outcome oriented. Obviously, the aggression factor is different for sprinters and distance folk. I was actually speaking in my post, however, of mental aggression, not physical aggression. Most sprinters seem to agree that you have to have it -- particularly with a little caffeine thrown in. I specifically remember GoodSmith and Wayne remarking on this in a thread on sprinting.

And I think you've mischaracterized my last post and my general thinking on the process/outcome issue. In fact, anyone who's read my posts could readily tell that I do quite a lot of thinking about swim techniques and training. (I think several pages ago George and Matt said I was over-thinking.) So, I do not just engage in outcome-based racing or training, and I would never advocate it exclusively. In fact, I very often visualize a race beforehand and focus on a past good race and remember how that felt, so I'm a "processor" too. All I said was that I try not to process too much minutes before stepping on the starting blocks. It should all be pre-rehearsed when you step on the blocks, as you yourself have stated. I guess the difference between us is precisely WHEN we each turn off the brain. Maybe I turn mine off earlier than you. And maybe that simply reflects the difference in our race distances.

The mental part of swimming is critical. In fact, much of what you mention as your new focus on the "habits of mastery" is found in the book Mind Gym, one I've referenced in some other thread. Obviously, the mental side is important, but then racing with the prior "imprinting" has to take over.

As for the particular race I referred to, I wasn't in the best shape that day with what I now know is a frayed labrum, poor training and sinus issues. I just showed up at the meet to do a couple of races as well as I could and have fun. That day, for that race only, not every day, the strategy was simply to win. Racing is a competition after all. I make no apologies for liking to win. So, yes, I was happy with the outcome. Pretty happy with my time too, all things considered. But I think I'll go faster next time I attempt the same race because I will have done a lot of processing and imprinting before then, which hopefully will pay off. So I don't think my mental game is in the gutter yet. In general, I'm always trying to improve and be Mindful. I'm sure there are many ways in which I can.

The Fortress
January 28th, 2007, 12:20 PM
I myself never rethought bad races I always looked forward to better myself.

The last issue of Splash magazine was devoted to analyzing the "X factor" in kids, i.e., what traits differentiate the real champions from the pretty good swimmers. This trait you mention here, George, was highly valued. Swimmers that bounced back quickly from sub-par races or found something positive about the race and moved on generally did better in the long run. I can't recall the entire article, but I believe other traits of a champion (besides obvious physical gifts) included how well they responded to adversity and plateaus, how well they bounced back from injuries, hard work, confidence, tenancity, desire to learn, desire to study and analyze other elite swimmers, etc. That same issue, as I mentioned above, also stressed that, after having done all the imprinting, the strategy of "Unconscious Competence" before stepping on the blocks was the best, i.e., do all the thinking and analysis in practice and then just race. I believe that's what I was speaking of above.

The Fortress
January 28th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Other than your single anecdote can you present a persuasive argument in favor of the outcome-oriented approach?

I don't use a purely outcome-oriented approach, as I've just described above.

I'm not a coach, just a swimmer. And I don't have much masters experience. So, it's a safe assumption, and one you've certainly advocated, that everyone should take your advice. OK with me. As Matt said, I don't have a million dollar swimming contract. I'm just a masters swimmer trying to improve.

geochuck
January 28th, 2007, 02:11 PM
I don't know that i would agree with this analogy. Certainly while carrying heavy objects (ie:600 lb. granite counter tops) the only possible way to do this is to engage both arms in the task and center the load as to distribute it evenly. chin ups and pull ups are typically done with a shoulder width or wider grip. double ropes are often employed in climbing sports (rock, ice etc). Using a rope to ascend is usually reserved for situations when a more aesthetic option (free climbing) is not possible. in a perfect situation (climbing a ladder) the arms would follow a shoulder width "track" naturally.

Dave for one thing I would not expect that you would think this plausible but what he was actually talking about is the perfect "I" stroke today, he also taught us to roll the shoulders but this was in the mid 40s and most coaches wanted no shoulder roll.

You had better try to climb up two ropes not a stationary ladder, two different things you will find. He also realized the center line of the body changes when the body rolls. It is still the center but for people who think the center as being the nose and belly button it will not work for them.

I have never found a ladder in the water to grab onto and if there was one I would like the rungs to be on the center line of my lane and not 18" apart.

geochuck
January 28th, 2007, 02:45 PM
Fortress my friend Mike who swam for U of Michigan always said you have to have heart and what he meant was no matter the adversity it's you guts that count.

I looked at a race that was upcoming at McGill University Montreal some great swimmers from the USA all boasting times of 47and 48 seconds for the hundred. I told them that this is the slowest pool in Canada and I would beat them in by doing a 52 second 100yds they laughed and they started their preperation trances. I joked around and told them I was going to warmup in the shower, that the water was to cold to warmup in. I wrapped my legs in hot towels and I told them I let 2 miles of water pass over me and that was all I had to do. I dove in and did a 52 second flat 100 and won.

KaizenSwimmer
January 28th, 2007, 02:47 PM
As Matt said, I don't have a million dollar swimming contract. I'm just a masters swimmer trying to improve.

Wouldn't you expect that Katie Hoff and Michael Phelps are still intrinsically motivated -- like all of us Masters -- and their lucrative Speedo contracts are mainly very rich gravy?

Similarly the absence of a million dollar contract doesn't lessen the pleasure many people get from pursuing mastery and self-understanding through swimming.

chaos
January 28th, 2007, 02:50 PM
Dave for one thing I would not expect that you would think this plausible but what he was actually talking about is the perfect "I" stroke today, he also taught us to roll the shoulders but this was in the mid 40s and most coaches wanted no shoulder roll.

You had better try to climb up two ropes not a stationary ladder, two different things you will find. He also realized the center line of the body changes when the body rolls. It is still the center but for people who think the center as being the nose and belly button it will not work for them.

I have never found a ladder in the water to grab onto and if there was one I would like the rungs to be on the center line of my lane and not 18" apart.

george, i understand the center line you are describing is relitive to the width of the lane and not the nose to navel. my comment was based on my own climbing experience. with an axe in each hand the ideal place to plant (conditions permiting) would be in line with the shoulders. i think anyone who climbs would have a hard time relating the rope analogy to stroke technique.(as do i)

The Fortress
January 28th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Similarly the absence of a million dollar contract doesn't lessen the pleasure many people get from pursuing mastery and self-understanding through swimming.

Not at all. That's why I'm swimming and continuing to try and improve. In my post, I was just responding to your post in which you asserted you've coached "dozens of swimmers, hundreds of races" and, in contrast, I gave only a single anecdote. The suggestion was quite clear. I could give a lot of anecdotes too, but why bother?

Allen Stark
January 28th, 2007, 06:04 PM
Congrats to Terry and Fort on their swims.
Re: looking back at your swims,I find I replay swims in my mind.If I swim well I enjoy the replay. If Iam not satisfied with my swim I feel compelled to find out why. Once I do I can then move on and look forward to doing better.

FlyQueen
January 28th, 2007, 06:10 PM
The last issue of Splash magazine was devoted to analyzing the "X factor" in kids, i.e., what traits differentiate the real champions from the pretty good swimmers. This trait you mention here, George, was highly valued. Swimmers that bounced back quickly from sub-par races or found something positive about the race and moved on generally did better in the long run. I can't recall the entire article, but I believe other traits of a champion (besides obvious physical gifts) included how well they responded to adversity and plateaus, how well they bounced back from injuries, hard work, confidence, tenancity, desire to learn, desire to study and analyze other elite swimmers, etc. That same issue, as I mentioned above, also stressed that, after having done all the imprinting, the strategy of "Unconscious Competence" before stepping on the blocks was the best, i.e., do all the thinking and analysis in practice and then just race. I believe that's what I was speaking of above.


Fort, I know both Hansen and Coughlin have talked about this. They don't let their bad races have a negative effect. Hansen in particular used his disappointments at 2000 trials (3rd in both breasts) to fuel him for the next 4 years to world records in both. He now uses his 2nd and 3rd place finishes in Athens to motivate him.

FlyQueen
January 28th, 2007, 06:48 PM
Wouldn't you expect that Katie Hoff and Michael Phelps are still intrinsically motivated -- like all of us Masters -- and their lucrative Speedo contracts are mainly very rich gravy?

Similarly the absence of a million dollar contract doesn't lessen the pleasure many people get from pursuing mastery and self-understanding through swimming.

I think they are only motivated by $$$ they are simple one dimensional people and can only be motivated by one factor ...


Do you ever take anything in context?:dunno:

Warren
January 28th, 2007, 08:48 PM
Fortress my friend Mike who swam for U of Michigan always said you have to have heart and what he meant was no matter the adversity it's you guts that count.

I looked at a race that was upcoming at McGill University Montreal some great swimmers from the USA all boasting times of 47and 48 seconds for the hundred. I told them that this is the slowest pool in Canada and I would beat them in by doing a 52 second 100yds they laughed and they started their preperation trances. I joked around and told them I was going to warmup in the shower, that the water was to cold to warmup in. I wrapped my legs in hot towels and I told them I let 2 miles of water pass over me and that was all I had to do. I dove in and did a 52 second flat 100 and won.

Does heating your muscles before the race give any advatage?

Muppet
January 29th, 2007, 08:51 AM
Does heating your muscles before the race give any advatage?

I do rub my hands up and down my thighs, calfs and hammies while I am waiting behind the blocks. It helps me "warm up," getting the muscles warm so they're ready to go, plus the quick rubbing gets my heartrate up slightly and the excitement builds, and then up on the blocks and GO GO GO!!! :dedhorse:

SwimStud
January 29th, 2007, 09:04 AM
...the quick rubbing gets my heartrate up slightly and the excitement builds...

Dude...you can't tee me up like this! It isn't fair when I have to be PG. :eek:

Seriously though heat works, provided you don't overdo it to the point of inducing sleepiness. I think I've said I do hot shower and stretch out a bit then cool the water down over 30 seconds so that I don't get a shock when I enter the pool. Works for me.

geochuck
January 29th, 2007, 02:45 PM
Dave did your coach ever put a rope infront of you with knots in it to do isometric contractions, we did this because we had very little pool time. A great thing to develop muscle structure in the arms and back. Now I use a ladder with the palm, fore arm and elbow to do dryland when I cannot get to the pool, pressing on the each step for seven seconds.

Warren warm muscles are better than cold muscles I never warmed up in the pool, only in the warm shower. It may be the wrong way to go it may not.

Allen Stark
January 29th, 2007, 10:20 PM
I've posted this before,but I can't find it. In the late 60s they did an evaluation of regular warmup vs. long hot shower. The long hot shower group did statistically better,although many were surprized as the felt weak standing on the blocks. Of course this was back in the dark ages before we knew how to do a real warmup:dunno:

chaos
January 29th, 2007, 10:33 PM
I've posted this before,but I can't find it. In the late 60s they did an evaluation of regular warmup vs. long hot shower. The long hot shower group did statistically better,although many were surprized as the felt weak standing on the blocks. Of course this was back in the dark ages before we knew how to do a real warmup:dunno:

at goerge mason, they have a sauna near the deep pool. one of my team mates discovered the simple pleasure of heating up the old g-maximus by leaning against the window before diving in.
i have to admit...i followed suit though i don't know that it made me swim any faster.

geochuck
January 30th, 2007, 02:19 PM
You may have noticed I said warm shower - not a hot shower however did use hot towels on my calf muscles and thigh muscles.

Muppet
January 31st, 2007, 12:54 PM
at goerge mason, they have a sauna near the deep pool. one of my team mates discovered the simple pleasure of heating up the old g-maximus by leaning against the window before diving in.
i have to admit...i followed suit though i don't know that it made me swim any faster.

They were out of commission at both SCY, LCM zones' and the sprint meet this fall. UMD has a sauna too - not sure if they have it open during meets;
However, this sounds like a pretty good idea. I will be trying that out next time...:banana:

islandsox
February 1st, 2007, 03:27 PM
I know this topic was about muscular weakness in the arms and without the person feeling anaerobic, but it sure has grown from there. To me, if a swimmer is not as strong as they need to be for whatever distance they are swimming, and they feel it, they need to strength train and/or get into better condition. I think this is a no-brainer. Or, maybe they are trying to swim a distance that they are not accustomed to so they will feel weakness and fatigue on that event.

As swimmers, most of us all know what our weaknesses and strengths are. I know I am aware of this because I am always aware of how I feel when swimming; swimming is sensory for me and it is a total, complete waste of time for me to think about swimming; I almost think that some people here are over-analyzing swimming to death and are missing the point of swimming with fluid movements. And fluid movements are developed with lots of swim time, some slow sets to continue correcting poor technique, race pace sets (I do these more than anything else) to have the stamina to continue correct technique. A beginner swimmer of course must think more about technique and coordination, but as a swimmer progresses, I have seen more good technique than poor and I think it downright foolish to "constantly think" about it. What fun is this and once a swimmer starts thinking about it, will they ever be able to stop this process and let their training take over? And, the swimmer will take a long time to ever "feel" the feel of water if their brain is going 9-0.

And I think all swim devices have their place in swimming; sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't. I do a lot of Under/Over drills for kicking which require no board; other times I use one.

I just re-started swimming two weeks ago; swim M-W-F so far each week. Going only about a mile or mile and a half right now, but within my designed training, Wednesday is distance day. Wednesdays are a 1 mile ocean swim followed by half-mile of sprints. On the other 2 days, I am doing timed swims that are all 325 yds followed by breathing patterns and half-mile sprints. Times are a falling fast and stamina is being developed. Next week, will start swimming 4 days a week, etc. Will be adding another mile to each workout next week.

My point is: constantly thinking about each little component of swimming may actually defeat the purpose especially on race day. On race day, I have gone through all possibilities in my head for weeks before, and when the buzzer goes off, I let my training take over and swim the event.

I guess I trust my training enough to let my body follow what it worked hard towards. Maybe some of you should at least think about the training you have done and trust it also.

Donna

SwimStud
February 1st, 2007, 03:28 PM
"something"


Finally, yay! :smooch:

The Fortress
February 1st, 2007, 04:03 PM
And fluid movements are developed with lots of swim time, some slow sets to continue correcting poor technique, race pace sets (I do these more than anything else) to have the stamina to continue correct technique.

And I think all swim devices have their place in swimming; sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't. I do a lot of Under/Over drills for kicking which require no board; other times I use one.

Donna

I don't know how you are living without power! Insane. Being a night owl, I would have to buy scads of flashlights.

With all the drilling and thinking and asking of ande that I've done, I'm sure my strokes are all perfectly fluid now. :rofl: I "work" on technique a lot actually, using my new ande-inspired aerobic-lite training plan. I never count strokes though. (Oh, wait, I did today when I was doing 25 flys. I kicked under water the max distance and then took 3-4 strokes to the wall. LOL.) I think, but then I race without thinking or at least without thinking about technique. I might think "go faster," "don't breathe," "how'm I doing?", etc.

There is a difference, I think, between thinking and analyzing everything 24/7. But to each his own, as everyone seems to agree. I'm all for Unconscious Competence too, especially when racing. It's gotta be automatic or natural by then.

I'm glad your shoulder is better and that you are getting in shape for your upcoming triathlon. We wouldn't want any nasty cliques beating you!

Also wanted you to know that I am enjoying my new monofin toy. :D
Go forth and build endurance!!!:banana: Miss you here. You should really live in a more civilized place.


FlyQueen:

I am very one dimensional and shallow. I only think about beating my secret nemesis and SwimStud and some other unnamed person. I should think more about making $$$$$.

geochuck
February 1st, 2007, 04:54 PM
Donna you have hit the nail on the head. Even when I raced I thought of everthing under the sun and not technique. I thought a lot about where I was placed in a race, who was still in the water, who was out of the water, I would visulize my children. The only thing I wanted to know occassionaly is how many strokes a minute was I doing, when should I pick up my stroke pace when should I slow my stroke pace. My technique was put on automatic. In rough water should I roll more so I can breathe, not once did I think about the feel of the water, sometimes the water was so cold you could not feel anything. When it came down to the finish how far did I have to sprint or could I just swim in.

FlyQueen
February 1st, 2007, 11:36 PM
Didn't the super talented Ian Thorpe say, when asked what he thought about while he swam say, something like the last song he hears on the radio gets stuck in his head and that's what he sings during practice. I think I've heard this from Phelps, too. Thorpie also said that when he raced he didn't know what he thought about he was on autopilot.

During my brief races I just think go like hell, don't breathe, and kick. Sometimes I like to back off of the kick too much.

I think there is a time and place to think about technique, like when you are tired and it falls apart, during warm-up or drills, otherwise, BORING! I also think Donna is right on with race pace sets.

I HATE E1 sets they make me want to gouge out my eyes, let's swim easily then rest for 30 seconds, I don't see the point at all ... unless it's recovery ...

Fort, I think constantly about my billion dollar endorsements and nothing more ...

Muppet
February 2nd, 2007, 12:01 AM
Fort, I think constantly about my billion dollar endorsements and nothing more ...

Sounds like you need to hit up the downtown Chitown clubs where all the rich banker sugar daddies are hanging out after work. :groovy: at the very least, they may be able to sponsor your beverage consumption that evening.
:drink:

geochuck
February 2nd, 2007, 03:45 PM
Don't be like me and get a beer sponsor, then 16 people die from drinking their beer. That was the end of my being sponsored by Dow Beer.

Peter Cruise
February 2nd, 2007, 05:45 PM
But George, think of the slogans possible...'The beer that really kills your thirst!'...

Warren
February 2nd, 2007, 07:17 PM
That would be awsome to be sponsored by a beer. If I could have a beer sponsor it would be the Anheuser Busch company and I would wear a custom Natural Light fastskin.

poolraat
February 2nd, 2007, 07:24 PM
Don't be like me and get a beer sponsor, then 16 people die from drinking their beer. That was the end of my being sponsored by Dow Beer.

With a name like Dow, the first thing that came to mind was the chemical company and the pesticides we used on the ranch.

islandsox
February 6th, 2007, 11:38 AM
To George, Fortress, and others:

I am glad to know that I am not the only one who trusts my training and apply it without thinking about it to a race; I let myself totally go and let my body do what I have taught it to do on race day. I think if I had to remember a time when I was thinking about my swimming during a race, it would have to be a thought when I realized I had taken the race out way too fast and had the beginning thoughts of realizing I was in the process of "dying" before the end and getting ticked off that I did such a thing.

But even in the example above, I learned from it and spent more time on race pace sets and I have never had such a thing happen again.

I miss all of you; our electrical power is a bit better this week; but internet is worse because everyone is using the same company and they have added no band width; I almost have another birthday everytime I try to log on. We are working on trying to get internet restored in our home. I sure miss you all.

I am training more for the Utila swim than the triathlon swim because my relay has fallen apart twice already. Will wait and see what we put together at the last minute.

Your friend,
Donna

geochuck
February 7th, 2007, 06:30 PM
We don't have electrical problems here just the computer crashes all the time here in Melaque Mexico. So i post when I can.

I donated 5 - 40 min swim lessons to help raise money for children with special needs here. They bid on all kinds of items. The guy who won the bid cannot swim he starts his lessons tomorrow. They raised a little over 120,000 pesos on the auction. I have no idea what he bid for the lessons. What a great cause.