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Caped Crusader
January 17th, 2007, 05:53 PM
In another thread, the Fortress mentioned that her former coach thought that 25,000 yards or meters was a so-called "tipping point" for real aerobic conditioning/fitness in swimming. What does everyone think? It seems like a lot of yardage that is probably not necessarily for a pure sprinter. But what if you're a distance or OW geek or swimming the 400 IM or 200 fly? Is 25,000 the magic number? It seems like many forumites must be hitting that number because I have read about quite a few 5,000+ workouts. So, what is the "tipping point?"

Peter Cruise
January 17th, 2007, 06:03 PM
I don't kow about the 'tipping point' re swimming, but I do know that I've reached the 'upchucking point' once or twice. Though possibly the intensity of workout and the nature and quality of my pre-workout snack may have been the variables, not distance.

poolraat
January 17th, 2007, 06:17 PM
It's been a long time since I reached the tipping point.:drink: :drink:
I'm old and out of shape.

Larry_55
January 17th, 2007, 06:36 PM
Marriage is a relationship in which one person is always right, and the other is the husband.

You must know my wife.:rolleyes:

jim clemmons
January 17th, 2007, 06:52 PM
I think it's pretty individualized. Like you stated, a sprinter probably won't need the same endurance as a distance person.

For myself, it seems to be "around" 16-20,000yds/week. but we all need to remember that in reality it's really a heartrate/time dependent issue. You can swim leisurely for days on end, lots and lots of miles and never arrive at a "real aerobic conditioning/fitness" level.

The Fortress
January 17th, 2007, 08:25 PM
For myself, it seems to be "around" 16-20,000yds/week. but we all need to remember that in reality it's really a heartrate/time dependent issue. You can swim leisurely for days on end, lots and lots of miles and never arrive at a "real aerobic conditioning/fitness" level.

Peter: I bet you were at that tipping point during your mega-meet heyday easily! You were probably tipping and upchucking simultaneously.

Some context: My first coach was a fabulous guy who gave me lots of individual attention in an informal masters group, and is the reason I am a somewhat decent master swimmer today. He is a 27 year old former Olympic trialist who used to race Nesty and swam with Bauerle at Georgia before doubles/mega yardage resulted in shoulder surgery and ruined his college career. He was a very good 100 fly/free/back guy who was really into TI. (Note: no breaststroke) He knew his stuff. (I'm trying to get him to join my current team as a "masters" swimmer, but he's very busy at work and isn't sure he's ready to do what's necessary to get in shape.)

When he gave me the 25,000 yard "tipping point," he was trying to get me to do more yardage. I was hovering around 12,000, maybe at most 15,000 then. He thought it was fine that I seemed to be a drop dead sprinter. (He loved the 50 free.) But at the time, I wanted to try some other events, especially the 200 IM. But I didn't want to do it slowly just to do a masters PB. (Dave :thhbbb: ). So he told me if I wanted to have some really bang up 100s (especially fly) and some fast 200s, I needed to do 25,000 -- in the manner that Jim describes: real heart rate stuff, no lazing around. (I read somewhere that this is Laura Val's yardage.) Having swum for another 8 months since he moved on, I still have the sense that personally, I would need to do Jim's yardage range, maybe on the upper side to have really decent 200s. Just my sense. Not going to get there just now. One day I'll do that 200 IM.

swim4me
January 17th, 2007, 09:12 PM
We have a relatively new, small masters team. We work out three days a week for an hour. My coach (has trained olympic swimmers) says that for masters swimmers, three days a week is sufficient for practice to allow for recovery time. He works the dickens out of us on the days we swim. One or two 500's, sometimes an 800, but loads and loads and loads of 25, 50, 75 and 100 sprints. Very little rest :shakeshead: . Currently, I am the fastest swimmer on the team :rofl: (I said it was a small new team:agree: ). There are practices, where I am close to blowing chow and/or have thought about just getting out and giving up (lack of air to the brain:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ). I never have gotten out (quitting is not something I ever do with anything I do), I tell myself that it will soon be over and I'll be high on endorphines when it is over :drink: . We were going to get times this week to see how far we have come since our first meet in November (after we had been practicing for only 6 weeks). However, due to road conditions, that will be done at a later time. I am really hoping we swim on Friday :dunno:

I guess my point is, that depending on how often a swimmer gets pool time, and what kind of a swimmer you are (I'm a sprinter), it may not all be about yardage. I can tell that my intervals are faster and even though we are sprinting through the workouts, I can handle more and more yardage before I want to get out - but the coach is always pushing us to that point, so it keeps increasing. For me anyway, I will have to wait until my next meet to see what this style of workout is doing for me.

Superfly
January 18th, 2007, 07:13 AM
Hi swim4me!
We have exactly the same situation it seems. Three practices a week.

Do you do weight lifting as well?

How far do you go each practice?

Can you give examples of different series you typically do?

How do you differentiate the weeks/months before a coming event?

All info would be of interest

Cheers
/Per

swim4me
January 18th, 2007, 06:55 PM
Hi Per,

I swim M-W-F. On Tuesdays ad Thursdays, I do cardio on the stairmill, elipse, or ARC for 30 - 45 mins. Recently I have begun to lift weights on those days as well. Leg presses, leg extentions, leg curls, forward lateral pulls and pushes, rows and triceps. I always to do some yoga stretches and a short meditation at the end to prepare myself for my workday. On Friday's I take a regular Yoga class in the afternoon which really has helped with my flexibility. I am quite tall and have never been very flexible, but the yoga has me far more flexible that I ever was as a teenager!

Practices vary, but one we did was

4 X 100 (1 of each stroke)
1 X 100 IM
1 X 400 IM
10 X 75 free (I wanted to throw up on these)
5 X 50 free
1 X 100 Free cooldown

another was

1 X 500 Fr warm-up
10 X 50 FR/BR (freestyle up/breaststroke back)
10 X 25 FL
1 X 500 Free
1 X 200 Free
1 X 50 kick (cooldown)

There is not much rest with the sprints. The second 500 is a recovery. The 200 is a sprint. (we ran out of time, elite age group were waiting to swim, so we did a short cooldown - usually we do more)

We have not had a meet since stepping up our training. So I can tell you more about that after I experience it. I always push myself against whoever is next to me. (since the team is small we get our own lane) So far I have been able to stay ahead (they are all 15 to 26 years younger than me), but its good for me to think they are catching me, because I push harder to stay ahead.

Hope this helps :)

islandsox
January 19th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Fortress,

I just wanted to let you know that I think you misread that about Laura Val. I knew her personally for years and she insisted she never, ever exceeded 5,000 yds in any given workout. She said she thought she performed better doing 3,500 to 4,500 3 times a week, but within that yardage, was some pretty intense sets.

I have an opinion on this and it is: I think that swimming high yardage such as what you mentioned has a very good impact on a swimmer's cardiovascular system; it is obviously helpful. But if a swimmer is swimming multiple miles very slowly, I am not sure that is very aerobic. There may be some other health related pluses to it, but as far as improving a swimmer's aerobic capacity, I would have to think it wouldn't improve it very much if the yardage is done leisurely.

But I will let you know in the coming months as my training just started toward my 18 mile goal swim. I'll let you know from this swimmer's point of view how mass mileage benefits me.:help: Because I will be doing mass mileage.

Donna

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 19th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Marriage is a relationship in which one person is always right, and the other is the husband.

You must know my wife.:rolleyes:

My oldest sister said to me, "I don't understand why men are always right. You and (insert her husband's name) are always right. It isn't fair."

swimr4life
January 19th, 2007, 04:12 PM
Some context: My first coach was a fabulous guy who gave me lots of individual attention in an informal masters group, and is the reason I am a somewhat decent master swimmer today. He is a 27 year old former Olympic trialist who used to race Nesty and swam with Bauerle at Georgia before doubles/mega yardage resulted in shoulder surgery and ruined his college career.

What is your coach's name?!

The Fortress
January 19th, 2007, 05:22 PM
What is your coach's name?!

Hey twin. His name is Trevor Basil. Really great guy. He left Georgia after his shoulder surgery, though, and graduated elsewhere. He also coached my daughter's USS team for awhile before joining the corporate world (which he doesn't like). He couldn't do breastroke though. And my current coach hates it. I'm sunk.

What's your "tipping point" or typical season yardage wise for maximum sprinter performance, assuming no ghastly shoulder issues? (I hope you are better and in the water!!!!)

Islandsox: I read that information about Laura Val here on some thread.

Speedo Racer
January 19th, 2007, 05:27 PM
I agree with Jim. It is an individual thing.

I just checked Ernie Maglischo's Swimming Fastest, probably the most exhaustive research available on swim training. He says:


"The matter of training mileage is another issue that currently has no answer. Of course, people have opinions...[lots of conflicting statistics are listed]...The desire to outdo the successful swimmer across town or across the world has long dictated the training volume of swimmers. This motivation will probably continue to influence training volume until research provides conclusive evidence of an optimum training mileage."

geochuck
January 20th, 2007, 08:41 AM
I have done almost every variation from no swimming just dryland workouts to 105,000 yards a week and never ever found the tipping point.

Only upchucked looking at water after a 66mile race. I could not look at that lake without getting sick for 6 months or for 10 years if someone put orange juice or a package of orange Tang or glucose powder on the table instant sickness. I have over come this and finally can drink orange juice, look at a package of Tang or glucose powder.

chaos
January 20th, 2007, 09:36 AM
I think I need a minimum of 3000 yds. just to get a decent night's sleep.
Typical practices average about 4,000 yds. Six to seven days per week.

I enjoyed doing doubles (3 days per week) this past summer, but would keep the daily total to +/- 5000 yds. This included about 3000 mtrs long course in the am and 2000 yds at lake Minnewaska after work. Also raced OW almost every weekend.

swimr4life
January 20th, 2007, 10:21 AM
Hey twin. His name is Trevor Basil. Really great guy. He left Georgia after his shoulder surgery, though, and graduated elsewhere. He also coached my daughter's USS team for awhile before joining the corporate world (which he doesn't like). He couldn't do breastroke though. And my current coach hates it. I'm sunk.

What's your "tipping point" or typical season yardage wise for maximum sprinter performance, assuming no ghastly shoulder issues? (I hope you are better and in the water!!!!)

Islandsox: I read that information about Laura Val here on some thread.

Hi Sis!
Luckily, I don't let myself reach a "tipping" point. If I'm exhausted, I take a day or two off and rest!

I believe it is such an individual thing. There are so many variables!:
- how intense are your workouts?
- are you a sprinter or a distance swimmer?
- how much sleep are you getting?
- are you eating a nutritious diet?
- how stressful is your life outside the pool?

These are the things that tend to effect performance in the water. I say just listen to your body. Everyone's tipping point will be different at any given time. As a Masters swimmer I have had to change my way of thinking from the "tear down - no pain no gain" mentality to "quality not quantity".

I will never forget reaching a "tipping point" one summer when I was about 18. I was doing a 3 hour long course workout in the morning and a 2 hour short course workout in the afternoon every day. One morning we did a set of 10x800's and I was "in the zone"! I just felt amazing.....which is saying a lot for me since I was/am a sprinter! My coach kept encouraging me and I was holding amazing times! (also amazing for the same reason...) At the end of that workout, I passed out when I got out of the pool! I could not even stand up for about 30 minutes without getting woozy. Looking back, I think I probably had low blood sugar and dehydration! I never ate breakfast before I swam and we didn't drink anything during our workouts back then! After that day, I was TOAST! I struggled in workouts and stayed tired! Even with a taper, I never did a pb that long course season!

I don't EVER plan on "tipping" again!:frustrated:

The Fortress
January 20th, 2007, 11:15 AM
Hi Sis!
Luckily, I don't let myself reach a "tipping" point. If I'm exhausted, I take a day or two off and rest!

I believe it is such an individual thing. There are so many variables!:

- how intense are your workouts?
- are you a sprinter or a distance swimmer?
- how much sleep are you getting?
- are you eating a nutritious diet?
- how stressful is your life outside the pool?

I don't EVER plan on "tipping" again!:frustrated:

I do not have fond memories of summer long course training either! Ugh. What were our coaches thinking then?! Way too much face time in the water... Gotta go for quality now. How often do you try to swim on the quality sprinter "aerobic-lite" diet? Personally, I find I can't really go over 4,000 per workout without my shoulders objecting violently. I haven't done that in awhile. I'm just getting back up to 3,500 ...

I think all your variables are correct.

Somewhere there is a very funny post by GoodSmith where he postulated that you could add tenths to a 50 at a meet depending on the individual variables:

.1 fight with the wife
.1 bad night's sleep
.1 boss yelled at you
.1 big project due
.1 bad nutrition
.1 forgot to caffeinate
.1 ill-timed cold
.1 in-laws visting
.1 children on your nerves
.1 forgot to practice starts
.1 too much garbage yardage
.2 hangover

I'm sure there are others. If I could just eliminate these items, I'd be really fast. :rofl:

poolraat
January 20th, 2007, 12:03 PM
Somewhere there is a very funny post by GoodSmith where he postulated that you could add tenths to a 50 at a meet depending on the individual variables:
.....2 hangover

My 50 fly pb last month was on a hangover. A friend and I drank way too much wine the night before. The fly was 1st. Probably why the later races didn't go as well.:rofl: :rofl: