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View Full Version : New rules=I'm dq'd for the first time ever.



blainesapprentice
January 28th, 2007, 12:26 PM
So we had a dual college meet yesterday, against a team we should have beaten (we did not). I got stuck swimming the 50 and the 100free, after having been told the day before I would be swimming the 200im and the 100fly, which I was excited about. So from the very beginning I was a little bummed, because I really wanted the chance to swim something different, but alas and alack...that is not for me.

So I anchored the 200medley relay and pulled us ahead for a win...okay cool.

I swam the 50 free and got 1st but did a pretty cruddy time which was
disappointing (27.1)

Then I had the 100 freestyle. I got up on my block and Idk if any of you have experienced this, but when the block is not square to the pool...like its a little crooked? But this block was, and I had noticed it when I was taking my mark on the 50 free, so now I was more tuned into it, and I was trying to adjust myself so that I was square to the water, even though the block was not. While I was doing this the official said take your mark, so I just moved my foot over an inch and took my mark, and then go. I swam the race, won it, did a horrific-ly bad time for me (58.5) and took my warm down lap. When I got out my coach is trying to tell me about how I have the strength I just need to get the speed, and idk my coach really was just irritating me so I said okay and walked away. I went to see my mom, and she says she thinks they're disqualifying me for a false start. So I go down to talk to my coach, who doesn't really know whats going on. Eventually he takes out the rule book and is reading over if they can do this, and he finds the rule and him and the assistant coach decide that I can not be disqualified, because it wasn't really a false start, I was moving on the blocks which should have warrented a "swimmers stand up" at which point if I had fallen in or dove in rather I would have been dq'd. By now the meet has been stopped for 10minutes while the officials are discussing this, but my coaches never approached them with their finding. During the break which was some 30minutes later, my coach goes to them and brings up the rulings and stuff, but the official says: he knows it was a bad call, but now it is after the fact and can not be revoked. So, whatever, that stinks. But what made me most angry was that later, after the meet, I asked the official about the ruling, and he said, in football, if theres a question about a ruling, the coach doesn't come over to the refs 30minutes later, they stop everything and go running over right then. Which basically, implied that if the call had been argued right from the start when it happened, it would have been overturned and we would have tied the meet. The only reason I am not super angry is because the time was horrible, so its not like I loss a really good time.

But yeah.

poolraat
January 28th, 2007, 12:35 PM
I'm sorry you got dq'd. You shouldn't have been. If the referee knew he had made a mistake it's his responsibility to correct it. And you should have been notified as soon as you left the water after your race not after 10 minutes of discussion among the officials. It is always emphasized in our officials meetings that "the benefit of the doubt goes to the swimmer". If they had to discuss it for 10 minutes, that means there was all kinds of doubt. Therefore the only discussion should not have been about disqualifying you, but how to deal with a similiar situation in the future.



I went to see my mom, and she says she thinks they're disqualifying me for a false start. So I go down to talk to my coach, who doesn't really know whats going on. Eventually he takes out the rule book and is reading over if they can do this, and he finds the rule and him and the assistant coach decide that I can not be disqualified, because it wasn't really a false start, I was moving on the blocks which should have warrented a "swimmers stand up" at which point if I had fallen in or dove in rather I would have been dq'd. By now the meet has been stopped for 10minutes while the officials are discussing this, but my coaches never approached them with their finding. During the break which was some 30minutes later, my coach goes to them and brings up the rulings and stuff, but the official says: he knows it was a bad call, but now it is after the fact and can not be revoked. So, whatever, that stinks. But what made me most angry was that later, after the meet, I asked the official about the ruling, and he said, in football, if theres a question about a ruling, the coach doesn't come over to the refs 30minutes later, they stop everything and go running over right then. Which basically, implied that if the call had been argued right from the start when it happened, it would have been overturned and we would have tied the meet. The only reason I am not super angry is because the time was horrible, so its not like I loss a really good time.

But yeah.

dorothyrde
January 28th, 2007, 01:41 PM
don't know about college, but isn't there 30 minutes in usa rules?

This is a common DQ at USA meets, false start for moving after taking your mark. Seen it many times, had my kid get deeked for it.

CreamPuff
January 28th, 2007, 01:50 PM
I'm sorry Morgan! That shouldn't have happened to you - much less in that manner.

I know exactly what you're talking about what with the cockeyed block.
We've got that here at the pools I swim at.

My understanding of the rule is that you need to come down and hold perfectly still after "take your mark." Many judges/ starters do try and give the benefit of the doubt to the swimmer and will often call, "stand" if they see someone fidgeting after "take your mark." However, (and I don't know NCAA rules - only sort of know the USS or Masters), some can run the race anyway and DQ for that fidget via "delay of meet."
Hopefully, a certified official can correct me on my thoughts here.

Ideally, the coaches should have known the ins and outs of the rule book and contested right then and there. I did that w/ one of my little swimmers and a change was actually made - but you need to call it to the attention of the officials within a certain timeframe. You gotta know the rule book well and be ready to take action. I never paid attention to the rules (my bad) until I was a coach and until I was affected by, should I say, extenuating circumstances as a swimmer.

Anyway, I feel your pain. I'm sorry it had to happen that way to you. BTW, I think your times were fast! But, I know it's hard if you were off from where you wanted to be. Great job anchoring your relay to victory! :applaud:

swimr4life
January 28th, 2007, 02:18 PM
I went to see my mom, and she says she thinks they're disqualifying me for a false start. So I go down to talk to my coach, who doesn't really know whats going on. Eventually he takes out the rule book and is reading over if they can do this, and he finds the rule and him and the assistant coach decide that I can not be disqualified, because it wasn't really a false start, I was moving on the blocks which should have warrented a "swimmers stand up" at which point if I had fallen in or dove in rather I would have been dq'd.

Hi Morgan,

In USS/High School meets, if the starter says "stand" and you fall in or false start, it is not a dq. If he does not say "stand" and you even wiggle during the "take your mark" you are dq'd. I'm so sorry you were dq'd! That rule stinks but there is a purpose behind it. Any movement on the blocks after the starter says "Take your mark" has to be deemed a false start....even if it doesn't give you an advantage! Even if you weren't intentionally "cheating". I've had to race on blocks that were "cockeyed" to the pool. I hate that!! I know exactly what you mean and how much it can mess with your concentration....especially for a 50 free where your start is sooo important!

My hat is off to stroke and turn judges! :notworthy: Its a hard, often thankless, job with WAAAYY too much gray area. Just like everything in life, you have judges that are fair and have common sense and you have others that abuse their power. If the judge KNEW it was a bad call, shame on him for not reversing his call.:shakeshead: I was a stoke and turn judge before I became a coach. It's not an easy job whatsoever!!!! It broke my heart to DQ kids....even when they were doing something blatantly wrong! I'm very tenderhearted! The only way I could deal with it was by telling myself that the rules were there to make the competition fair and equal and that I was doing the other competitors a disservice if I let a swimmer compete with an unfair advantage.

The delay of meet call is my "favorite"! Those call always end up delayinf the meet while the judges and coaches discuss it! :shakeshead:

newmastersswimmer
January 28th, 2007, 05:45 PM
Sorry to hear about what happened Morgan. Sounds like you and your team got robbed. I know I would have also been very upset about it if I was in your situation. Good luck with the rest of the season!

Newmastersswimmer

LindsayNB
January 28th, 2007, 05:52 PM
One has to stay motionless after taking one's mark, but clearly you can't stay motionless while you "take your mark"! Is there a rule that you can't move your feet after "take your mark"?

I don't know about NCAA but under USMS rules the 30 minute limit only applies to judgment calls, not questions of interpretation of the rules. If the call was due to a misinterpretation of the rules one has 10 days to protest (again, for USMS).

knelson
January 28th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Any movement on the blocks after the starter says "Take your mark" has to be deemed a false start

But doesn't everyone move after "take your mark?" I mean, you actually need to take your mark :) Maybe the rule is once you're in that position you must remain motionless until the starting signal.

edir: looks like Lindsay and I had the same thought!

FlyQueen
January 28th, 2007, 06:07 PM
But doesn't everyone move after "take your mark?" I mean, you actually need to take your mark :) Maybe the rule is once you're in that position you must remain motionless until the starting signal.

edir: looks like Lindsay and I had the same thought!

I think that's how it is worded ... I know once you "take your mark" you have to remain motionless until the gun/beep/whatever ... I think Phelps did this a meet recently, the SoCal one maybe? So at least you are in good company Morgan.

blainesapprentice
January 28th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Well you see the problem was, was that I never stopped moving on the blocks following him saying take you mark. He started the event before I had gotten into place...we're not talking about me taking 20minutes here...not even 20seconds probably... Normally I am ready to dive in when they say take your mark-in terms of being in place and everything...this time I just needed the extra 5seconds to take my mark, but he didn't give it. It was literally take your mark...beep! lol. So, I don't think I was at fault...he should have either waited 2more seconds until I was in position to go....or said stand up and "go down and hold your position", when my coach finally did go up there, the official said he was wrong and that him disqualifying me was not the correct action, but because 30minutes had passed there was nothing left to do.:frustrated:

but like I said, I dont care. because of it, my coach lost his meet.

knelson
January 28th, 2007, 11:07 PM
I agree. I think it's the starter's responsibility to make sure everyone is set and motionless before they start the race.

swimr4life
January 29th, 2007, 12:24 AM
But doesn't everyone move after "take your mark?" I mean, you actually need to take your mark :) Maybe the rule is once you're in that position you must remain motionless until the starting signal.

edir: looks like Lindsay and I had the same thought!


There's the grey area I was talking about!.....At what point does the starter consider that everyone has "taken their mark"? The starter should allow everyone to come down together. If they don't, he/she should say "stand" and remind everyone to come down to their "mark" together. I hate this rule because some officials call it when they really shouldn't. It is all up to their interpretation. You just hope they have common sense and apply it along with the rule!:shakeshead:

FindingMyInnerFish
January 29th, 2007, 07:28 AM
I'm too new to swimming to know the finer points of the rules, but it sounds as if communication has suffered here, and you were hurt by that. While I've not been in your particular situation, I know how it is to be at the receiving end of decisions made by people not communicating properly, and I'm sorry that happened to you!

Might it help if you talk with your coach? In a non-accusing, friendly way, maybe talk about your disappointment but desire to find ways to prevent the same thing from happening and especially to help your team win.

BTW, I agree with the earlier post that those times sound great to me, but I also know that when you aim high, anything short of your goals will be disappointing to you. You are accomplishing a lot, so don't forget to give yourself credit for it, even as you keep your goals in sight. Congrats on the strong performances you delivered in the meet!

CreamPuff
January 29th, 2007, 08:09 AM
There's the grey area I was talking about!.....At what point does the starter consider that everyone has "taken their mark"? The starter should allow everyone to come down together. If they don't, he/she should say "stand" and remind everyone to come down to their "mark" together. I hate this rule because some officials call it when they really shouldn't. It is all up to their interpretation. You just hope they have common sense and apply it along with the rule!:shakeshead:

Beth, I know exactly what you mean here. That rule appears to be very open to interpretation. Based on the few meets I've been to lately, Masters-run meets *appear* to be pretty lenient on the rule (I've seen people fidget after the command, the race is run and there are no DQs). And, I've seen starters be very particular (they will DQ for delay of meet or will call the heat up again) at higher level USS meets. Anyway, my comment was that I was considering (and still sort of am) training/ volunteering to be an official, but I don't know. . . seems really tough to want to actually volunteer for that position. What made you switch from being an official to being a coach? Do you officiate anymore?

I do prefer to be in the water than around it. :cool:

Cheers,
KMan

ljlete
January 29th, 2007, 09:03 AM
The duty of the starter is to start the race in a fair manner for all. Having said that, swimmers are not allowed to abuse the system. The instructions for the starter state that the starting signal is to be given when all swimmers have become motionless (I believe the NCAA rules are worded in a similar manner as USA Swimming and USMS). So if you stopped moving for a brief period of time, then the starter could have legitimately given the signal. If you kept moving then and the starter felt that it was not fair to keep the other swimmers down, then he should stand them all up. When I referee, I know that I get starters upset at me when I don't allow a false start because the swimmer never stopped. If the rules were not this way, then the starter would have the ability to esentailly disqualify anyone and everyone.

In the NCAA I beliee that they are still supposed to call the swimmers back when there is a false start. So it doesn't sound like they followed those rules either. Again, when I referee, if the officials don't follow the rules, there is no disqualification.

Leo

MegSmath
January 29th, 2007, 11:11 AM
Leo's right: you got hosed, because they should have called you back. I am an NCAA-certified official, anal enough to actually carry the rule book in my backpack, and rule 2-1-3-d states "When the starting sound has been given and an unfair advantage has been obtained by one or more swimmers, all swimmers shall be recalled at once with a pistol shot and/or electronic-sound device by the starter, recall starter or referee. The starter, recall starter and/or referee then shall indicate the swimmer(s), if any, to be chared with a false start. Swimmers not obtaining an unfair advantage, even though they have entered the water, shall not be charged with a false start." That last sentence is interesting. If you were still fidgeting, trying to get set, then you probably had a slower start than the other swimmers, and did not gain an advantage.

I don't know whether you can do anything about it at this point. The only thing I could find about appealing a disqualification was in the championship section, and it says you have 15 minutes after the final heat to turn in a written appeal.

They probably did have a legitimate call about delay if you were fidgeting for 5 seconds (rule 2-1-3-e: "A swimmer who unnecessarily delays in assuming and holding a motionless starting position after the command 'Take your mark' shall be charged with a false start.")

As to how long to give the swimmers to assume their motionless position, 2-1-1 says "... upon the starter's verbal command 'Take your mark," each swimmer, with no unnecessary noise or movement, immediately shall assume any desired starting position with at least one foot on the front edge of the starting platform. ... Sufficient time shall be allowed to enable each swimmer to assume a motionless starting position; however all swimmers are expected to take their starting positions at approximately the same time, and unnecessary noise, movement or delays shall not be permitted." If I'd been starting, I would have called everyone back up and told you to come down and assume your starting position at the same time as everyone else.

SwimStud
January 29th, 2007, 11:49 AM
At my meet this weekend there was FS at the 50 Breast. The guy jumped started falling forward adn couldn't hold his balance. Everyone felt bad as he got DQ'd but good for him he came back and swam it.

Another guy dove right out but he didn't get a DQ b/c the guy next to him was fidgetting. The fidgeter got a warning (friendly and politely of course).

Speedo Racer
January 29th, 2007, 12:04 PM
The call is up to the starter and head ref. If they made a questionable call, it was your coach's responsibility to go up and protest the DQ immediately. That is probably why they were hanging out for a while discussing the call after the race. They were giving your coach time to assess, check the rule and go up and make a protest. He didn't and as a result, lost the meet.

Let's hope he learned from his mistake. Congrats on touching first in both the 50 and the 100 free. Are we talking meters or yards?

blainesapprentice
January 29th, 2007, 01:48 PM
Swimmers not obtaining an unfair advantage, even though they have entered the water, shall not be charged with a false start." That last sentence is interesting. If you were still fidgeting, trying to get set, then you probably had a slower start than the other swimmers, and did not gain an advantage.



They probably did have a legitimate call about delay if you were fidgeting for 5 seconds (rule 2-1-3-e: "A swimmer who unnecessarily delays in assuming and holding a motionless starting position after the command 'Take your mark' shall be charged with a false start.")


Yes your right, I most certainly was the last one into the pool on the start...with more of a flop than a dive, because I was taken off guard so much, because honestly, I am not even sure it was 3seconds from take ur mark to go, and like i've said, I was not in my mark haha!

blainesapprentice
January 29th, 2007, 01:52 PM
oh an yes, they are unfortunately my times for yards. And like some of you have said, my disappointment in my times lies in the fact that I have swam faster, consistently for the past 4 or so years. This year my times have been a good second off my normal range for both events...which is frustrating, because I don't feel like I am slacking off or doing anything to hinder my performance, yet it isnt there. I am strongly considering not swimming for college next year, because I use to love swimming, but under this coaching I just dread every minute of it. But turning down $8,000 is a tough decision, but on the other hand I do not want to burn out from swimming forever by pushing myself to bear it another season. idk...any suggestions?

Muppet
January 29th, 2007, 02:32 PM
I am strongly considering not swimming for college next year, because I use to love swimming, but under this coaching I just dread every minute of it. But turning down $8,000 is a tough decision, but on the other hand I do not want to burn out from swimming forever by pushing myself to bear it another season. idk...any suggestions?
Morgan, :2cents:

I think it is a priveledge to be in your position; I never got the opportunity to swim in college. If I could go back to Freshman year of HS knowing what I know now, I could have had a pretty good HS swimming career but would probably have had to make a collegiate choice between swimming and soccer. Ended up going to school because that is where I wanted to go, and from there, it all worked out for the best.

I can also appreciate the position you are in with the coaching. I know plenty of people who had to stop swimming NCAA because of coaching (I am very thankful one person in particular had to quit - b/c of that, I now know them!). That can really make or break you (literally), but part of this is also a function of the athlete him/herself. Some people can take the crap, excel and move on. Others just don't work that way, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Bottom Line: your primary reason for being where you are now is to go to school (even though I did encourage you to skip class in lieu of swimming :p). When it comes to swimming and school, I think you should do whatever you need to do to make sure you graduate at the level you wish.
:wave:

The Fortress
January 29th, 2007, 03:46 PM
oh an yes, they are unfortunately my times for yards. And like some of you have said, my disappointment in my times lies in the fact that I have swam faster, consistently for the past 4 or so years. This year my times have been a good second off my normal range for both events...which is frustrating, because I don't feel like I am slacking off or doing anything to hinder my performance, yet it isnt there. I am strongly considering not swimming for college next year, because I use to love swimming, but under this coaching I just dread every minute of it. But turning down $8,000 is a tough decision, but on the other hand I do not want to burn out from swimming forever by pushing myself to bear it another season. idk...any suggestions?

Morgan:

I can appreciate the position you are in. I chose to go to a school that did not give athletic scholarships (Dartmouth) for academic reasons. But I nonetheless wanted to continue my swimming career, although I will admit to some burnout from some mega-yardage going in. But, I too, hated my college coach. She had a distance free background/bias and all our training was geared around that even though we had a couple sprinters on the team. I hated it. There were very few practices I enjoyed, although I did enjoy my teammates and the meets themselves. (I will say my college times improved despite the workouts; I think it was because I was lifting weights/doing drylands more.)

Unfortunately, I tore my rotator cuff at the end of the season. This caused me to miss my east coast and NCAA championships. I never swam at college after my freshman year despite pleading from teammates. I spent the next summer swimming with my AAU team, but ultimately couldn't face the prospect of going back to swimming with a coach I detested doing workouts I hated. I didn't swim any kind of "workout" whatsoever for 24 years and turned to other sports. This is obviously just one perspective. I think if my college career had ended differently and not left such a sour taste in my mouth, I might have come back to masters swimming sooner.

However, you are in a position where you have to balance financial considerations also. So that has to weigh into your analysis. I also want to caution you not to be too worried about your plateau. It could be temporary or be sort of self-fulfilling because of your current unhappiness. I plateaued for awhile too in my mid-teens, then began improving again. Sometimes, I have read, women don't improve all that much in college or very incrementally. An adjustment in your training would probably help in that regard.

Do you have a USS team you can return to in the summer? Maybe you could talk to your coach there and see if you enjoy swimming over the summer? Have you told your current coach about your doubts? If he knew how seriously unhappy you were, maybe he'd change his approach? It sounds like you are a valued member of your team and that he would want to keep you. College swimming is a great thing. But you have to enjoy it or it can dampen your enthusiasm for college in general. I hope your spirits rise soon. How is you back injury?

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 29th, 2007, 04:02 PM
I tend to think that many judges/refs are very lenient(sp). Thursday, I was at a high schol race and I would have dqed every breaststroker. They all took a full butterfly kick off of the wall. Rule interpretationis truly in the eye of the interpreter.

SwimStud
January 29th, 2007, 04:19 PM
I tend to think that many judges/refs are very lenient(sp). Thursday, I was at a high schol race and I would have dqed every breaststroker. They all took a full butterfly kick off of the wall. Rule interpretationis truly in the eye of the interpreter.

That's the most confusing part of the turn. How on earth do you only do "a single downward butterfly" kick from a streamline without raising your feet first??

And Morgan, don't get down on yourself. I think talking with your coach is the first step you should take.

Rich

MegSmath
January 29th, 2007, 04:31 PM
I tend to think that many judges/refs are very lenient(sp). Thursday, I was at a high schol race and I would have dqed every breaststroker. They all took a full butterfly kick off of the wall. Rule interpretationis truly in the eye of the interpreter.

Craig, why would this be a DQ? Is high school different from USA, USMS, and NCAA, where you are now allowed to do a dolphin kick off the wall? I will admit to not being so familiar with HS rules.

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 29th, 2007, 04:32 PM
That's the most confusing part of the turn. How on earth do you only do "a single downward butterfly" kick from a streamline without raising your feet first??

And Morgan, don't get down on yourself. I think talking with your coach is the first step you should take.

Rich

The thing is, I don't think that the Illinos Highshool Atheltic Ass't'n allows even the one part of the movement.

blainesapprentice
January 29th, 2007, 06:38 PM
My back is pretty much all better. Just a little residual tightness.

The ironic part about this whole college swimming adventure, is that I transfered to this school specifically for swimming. I loved the coach, I thought he was superb...and then I got here. My teammates all agree he has changed for the worse in the past few years, and a lot of them are discouraged as a result. I have no enjoyed a single practice in the past two years with him, he completely is against fun workouts...like stop watch workouts, or relay workouts and the likes-which is hard when your swimming with the same group, same coach 6days a week from late August to Mid February. He also is a distance freestyler, and while he has claimed to try and make more sprint oriented practices, I think when he tries that he over does it, and I am left dead and defeated because of his insane repetitions of all out sprints. I have spoken to him and discussed my concerns with the program and my participation in it, and while the team would be very limited without me, as there are only 11girls as it is, he has too much arrogant pride to change.

The loss of $8000 would stink, but it would not hurt me in any ways, it would just result in there being less money in my savings for graduate school...but...thats okay. I would actually still have a year of eligibility left if I didnt swim here next year, and could feasibly swim at my graduate school if I so desired. It's not a done deal yet, I don't live on campus--one of the sacrifices of being a transfer student to this school was no housing on campus--so i have an apartment by myself off campus. But as a result, I have not met many people on campus besides the team and my classmates. I feel if I quit the team I would be alienating myself from the team...but then again, I am often left wondering if the only reason I feel apart of the team is because it would be rude of them all to completely exclude me? :-(...

So the next few weeks will be a lot of debating I reckon. I am swimming a masters meet on my birthday actually the weekend of March3-4 and I think I will let that help me decide...because I will be training on my own or with a masters club in Albany if I can find one...and if I were to do well...that might be enough mojo to just say...forget this collegiate junk...masters is where its at!:-D