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Peter Cruise
January 31st, 2007, 03:51 PM
I don't know if any of you have been following the new feature at the Swimming World website called "A day in the life" which has been following the daily routine (written by the subject) of various swimmers. It has been fascinating reading anyway, but now they feature a masters swimmer: Dennis Baker. We have expressed awe and admiration for his feats, now learn what he does to achieve his high level plus his life on a veritable coaching merry-go-round. And do note that most of his workouts are in meters. Day 2 has just been posted.

knelson
January 31st, 2007, 04:31 PM
This pretty much says it all:

"In Saturday's practice, my main set was 10x300's Butterfly on the 4:15, descend slightly all the way through and hold stroke and hold every other breathing pattern. I tried to stay steady on this and started at 3:45 and got down to 3:35. This is in a 25-meter pool."

If you've seen Dennis swim you'd believe he could do this, but still, wow! :eek:

scyfreestyler
January 31st, 2007, 04:34 PM
I saw him swim at Santa Clara last year in a consolation final. There was a much younger swimmer in the lane next to him swimming freestyle who had a hard time keeping up as I recall!

About the fly commentary, why the obsession with breathing every other stroke when one of the two fastest flyers in the world breathes on every stroke?

knelson
January 31st, 2007, 04:43 PM
About the fly commentary, why the obsession with breathing every other stroke when one of the two fastest flyers in the world breathes on every stroke?

That might work for Michael Phelps, but it doesn't work for everybody. My body position suffers when I breathe every stroke.

poolraat
January 31st, 2007, 04:54 PM
That might work for Michael Phelps, but it doesn't work for everybody. My body position suffers when I breathe every stroke.

I only learned fly about 3 years ago (still learning) and find that by breathing every stroke my rhythm is better. And when I try to breathe every 2nd or 3rd I lose both the rhythm and body position. Besides, I'm an air hog. I want all I can get as often as I can get it.

The Fortress
January 31st, 2007, 05:03 PM
That might work for Michael Phelps, but it doesn't work for everybody. My body position suffers when I breathe every stroke.

Me too. Breathing every stroke makes my hips drop and I feel like I'm swimming uphill. I can't get into a rhythm either.

10 x 300 fly is insane ...

some_girl
January 31st, 2007, 05:03 PM
That might work for Michael Phelps, but it doesn't work for everybody. My body position suffers when I breathe every stroke.

Ditto. The harder a set gets, the more I try to keep my head down. Though I might amend it slightly and say my energy suffers because it is harder to keep my body position. Besides, I get better breaths if I exhale for two.

CreamPuff
January 31st, 2007, 06:21 PM
10x300s fly? I could not locate where he did that.
Is there a link for that Sat workout? I could not hack that.

I found where he posted his Tuesday, January 30 practice which seemed reasonable.

knelson
January 31st, 2007, 06:29 PM
10x300s fly? I could not locate where he did that.
Is there a link for that Sat workout?

Yeah, he mentioned it in his day one writeup: http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/13563.asp

swim4me
January 31st, 2007, 08:19 PM
Me too. Breathing every stroke makes my hips drop and I feel like I'm swimming uphill. I can't get into a rhythm either.

10 x 300 fly is insane ...

That is my main challenge on my Butterfly:frustrated: . How many strokes do you take between each breath, Fortress, and do you keep the rhythm up consistently, or just take a breath when you need one?

CreamPuff
January 31st, 2007, 08:29 PM
Yeah, he mentioned it in his day one writeup: http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/13563.asp

Thanks Kirk. I missed that page.

Hmmm. . . I happily revel in my slowness rather than do that set.

The Fortress
January 31st, 2007, 08:31 PM
That is my main challenge on my Butterfly:frustrated: . How many strokes do you take between each breath, Fortress, and do you keep the rhythm up consistently, or just take a breath when you need one?

Kathy:

I think it totally depends on many factors such as whether you've been engine building, age, race distance, core strength, personal preference.

As for myself, if I'm swimming a 50, I try to breathe only 3-4 times. I'm now trying to stay underwater SDK-ing for awhile. (I can't do nearly the whole 15 meters on the second length though. Working on it.) On the 100, I would breathe every other stroke. I find I need the oxygen swimming the 100. I never do the 200 (see "whine" thread where I left you shoulder advice). That is left in my youth. In practice, I'd say unless I'm doing 25s or race pace 50s, I'm pretty much breathing every other stroke on most fly sets or IMs. But I'm sure others may be different, and they can weigh in. Good luck!

swim4me
January 31st, 2007, 08:51 PM
Kathy:

I think it totally depends on many factors such as whether you've been engine building, age, race distance, core strength, personal preference.

As for myself, if I'm swimming a 50, I try to breathe only 3-4 times. I'm now trying to stay underwater SDK-ing for awhile. (I can't do nearly the whole 15 meters on the second length though. Working on it.) On the 100, I would breathe every other stroke. I find I need the oxygen swimming the 100. I never do the 200 (see "whine" thread where I left you shoulder advice). That is left in my youth. In practice, I'd say unless I'm doing 25s or race pace 50s, I'm pretty much breathing every other stroke on most fly sets or IMs. But I'm sure others may be different, and they can weigh in. Good luck!

Fortress - Thanks for the advice and info. We are pretty much the same age. Since Fly is a struggle :laugh2: for me (oxygen-wise), I will be sticking with 50's (in competition) until I prove to myself that I have the same talent for Fly that I had at one time in breastroke (I will try to do a 100 in competition in March and see how close to my high school time I can get). I believe from what I am reading from you and others that my main emphasis needs to be on engine building for my Fly. Last Sunday I went to the pool by myself and in addition to other things, including 1 X 25yd Butterfly, did lots of SDK's (25y) all underwater with no breath. At least that was my goal and I was able to do most of them. I think if I can build my engine to only need one breath/25 of Fly I will feel much better about this stroke. My technique is good (unless I have to breathe a lot), otherwise my coach would not be pushing me in this direction. I just have to get used to using my shoulders this way. Thank for the shoulder advice on the 'Aches and Pains' thread. I will be doing some research on your suggestions. :agree:

Muppet
January 31st, 2007, 08:53 PM
Kathy:

I think it totally depends on many factors such as whether you've been engine building, age, race distance, core strength, personal preference.

As for myself, if I'm swimming a 50, I try to breathe only 3-4 times. I'm now trying to stay underwater SDK-ing for awhile. (I can't do nearly the whole 15 meters on the second length though. Working on it.) On the 100, I would breathe every other stroke. I find I need the oxygen swimming the 100. I never do the 200 (see "whine" thread where I left you shoulder advice). That is left in my youth. In practice, I'd say unless I'm doing 25s or race pace 50s, I'm pretty much breathing every other stroke on most fly sets or IMs. But I'm sure others may be different, and they can weigh in. Good luck!

Breathing in butterfly is really inefficient. Since your head is like a rudder, breathing straight ahead like we do in fly gets your whole body position out of whack and we then have to fight to quickly get back to a correct position (thats the 2nd dolphin kick of every stroke cycle).
I tend to breathe at least every other stroke until the piano starts falling. :dedhorse:
You should try a 200 once or twice for sheets and googles. Unless you are actually trying, its not really as bad as it sounds

The Fortress
January 31st, 2007, 10:09 PM
You should try a 200 once or twice for sheets and googles. Unless you are actually trying, its not really as bad as it sounds

I am not yet possessed by demons like that Barra fellow. I might possibly (in a million years) consider trying it for tricks and giggles if I actually swam in more meets and went to all my team practices. Since I can't make it to that many during the school year, I tend to be choosy, trying to swim my better events at the fast pools (and skip those obscenely early meets ;) that conflict with my kids' stuff -- good luck this weekend!). But I have a couple events that I'd like to say "I did it" about. Just not that one. I raced William in the 200 fly in practice last fall. That was enough for me. Shortly thereafter, with a bunch of 4 IMs and more fly, the achey breakies started. So, as much as I love fly, I have to restrain myself and pretend to be a sometime backstroker.

Plus, who wants to race if you're not "actually trying?" I'm sure I could dolphin dive the whole 200. But that's no fun. Much more fun to actually go fast at a meet IMHO.


:dedhorse:

Kathy:

Engine building is more for the 100 and 200 fly. You need an engine to prevent undue breakdown and cardiac arrest. Underwater SDKs are great. I love them. But they help you more with SDK-ing than building an aerobic base. I guess they help with getting used to breath holding. Anyway, for the 50 and 100, they're key. I'm glad you have good technique. It's pretty indispensible.

chaos
January 31st, 2007, 10:28 PM
try working on breathing with your chin in the water. if you do it well, some one standing behind you should not be able to tell which strokes you are breathing on.
for racing i follow:
50- breathe when necessary
100- breathe 2 or 3 strokes
200- breathe every stroke. (air is food)


in practice, the waves often dictate just how high i have to come up to breathe, but i still like to breathe every stroke. it also helps to identify potential collisions (and help avoid them) in our 6 foot wide lane pool.

Peter Cruise
February 1st, 2007, 12:49 AM
David- your latest picture perfectly illustrates the demonic possession necessary to the swimming of 200 fly.

newmastersswimmer
February 1st, 2007, 08:34 AM
David- your latest picture perfectly illustrates the demonic possession necessary to the swimming of 200 fly.
posted by That Northern Dude

I agree, I often call forth my inner demon "The Bork" (a terrifying monster that possessed my soul many years ago) every time I get ready for a 200 fly race.

Newmastersswimmer

p.s. Dennis Baker is insane!...but a clear swimming Demi-God. I read somewhere that he likes to enter the 500 free at some agegroup meets and he swims them butterfly. I think he went like 5:07 or so in one of those swims?.....

SwimStud
February 1st, 2007, 08:42 AM
All I'll say is you Fly-nuts better get in th water. The Breaststrokers are coming to play...you wouldn't want us to do 200's and show you how it's done now would you...

/flex (both arms)

:woot:


LOL

I should be careful Dave Barra is close enough to drive to my pool and psyche me out...his pictures don't scare me though ;)

Peter Cruise
February 2nd, 2007, 12:28 AM
Yeah, we could trade stories of violent, painful deaths at the 200 distance for both strokes. I feel that Leslie finds the thought of a 200 fly repulsive because of some horrendous incident as a young swimmer, however, I sense that she's on the edge of letting herself be talked into it. I'll pay to watch...

The Fortress
February 2nd, 2007, 08:27 AM
Yeah, we could trade stories of violent, painful deaths at the 200 distance for both strokes. I feel that Leslie finds the thought of a 200 fly repulsive because of some horrendous incident as a young swimmer, however, I sense that she's on the edge of letting herself be talked into it. I'll pay to watch...

No, no horrendous childhood incident, Peter. :thhbbb: Just swam it a whole lot. I preferred the 100, but the 200 was pretty fun too. (No violent painful death if your regular strategy is to loaf the first 100.) I'm sure I've swum more 200 flys in my life than many butterfroggers on the forum. ;) But I am definitely not on the verge of being talked into it, so you can save your money, Mr. Biblioman. (Besides, I don't want to give up my FAF Sista status.) I was alluding to being talked into the 200 IM someday. But my next few meets, assuming I go, are all booked up with sprints of 100 or <. No one will be watching except Muppet, who will doubtless be on pins and needles for the next 50 back rematch with SwimmieAvsFan. :D I'd pay to watch your 200 fly though or SwimStud's. :cool:
:dedhorse:

Allen Stark
February 3rd, 2007, 04:10 PM
I've been working on my SDK which is the only good thing about kick only workouts. I'm not sure how it will work in a meet,but I may swim the 3 Flys as well as the 3 breasts at our association meet(or maybe the 100 IM instead,I haven't decided.If Fort could come for the back part it would definitely be the IM.)50 Fly 0-1 breath down 1-3 breaths back, 100 Fly breath every other,200 is butterfrog.(Last 25 of the 100 is butterfrog if I go out too hard.:help: )

Peter Cruise
February 3rd, 2007, 04:45 PM
Allen- since we are back in the same age group, I'll just have to alert the stroke judges to watch for any excessive dolphin activity on your breastroke...of course, I'll have to actually get into shape and show up for a meet first, though

FlyQueen
February 5th, 2007, 06:17 PM
I gave the 200fly two valiant efforts in meets and I've retired it from the list of events I'll ever consider doing ... it's right by the 100 and 200 breast and 500 free .... BLECH!

I think the most important thing in fly is leading with the head into the water and leading with the elbows on the recovery ... at least for me ...

blainesapprentice
February 5th, 2007, 10:50 PM
The one essential lesson I have learned regarding the 200fly is to breath every other stroke, from the very beginning...even when I feel strong and full of air at the beginning I have to force my self to breath every other stroke...it makes for a much more successful swim, and much less death on the second half. Also, a HUGE thing for me is to not breath off the wall. As soon as I do that, my race is over, and my stroke goes to garbage. If I can remember to do all that, and keep my stroke long and relaxed until the end, the 200fly isn't all that bad:-d

LindsayNB
February 6th, 2007, 09:57 AM
I think the most important thing in fly is leading with the head into the water and leading with the elbows on the recovery ... at least for me ...

Can you elaborate on what you mean by leading with the elbows on recovery?

Jason Marsteller
February 8th, 2007, 01:56 PM
Hey all,

I just wanted to say thanks for keeping up with the "A Day in the Life" series on our site. It started off as more of an experiment with Kalyn Keller's first entry, and it took off. I've had a lot of fun administering the series.

I've noticed some of you had trouble finding all of the entries. We created a separate channel for them at http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/DayInTheLife_news.asp

Also, based on a few suggestions after Dennis Baker's week, we are going to have some other Masters join the discussion that do not put up as intense of times as Dennis. I apologize if we started with someone that is not even close to the norm as a Masters swimmer.

I'd like to ask if anyone else on here would be willing to do a week at some point through the upcoming year. If you are willing, please e-mail me at jasonm@swimmingworldmagazine.com.

Hope to hear from you all soon!

Jason Marsteller
Managing Editor
Swimming World Magazine

scyfreestyler
February 8th, 2007, 05:48 PM
Look forward to it Jason.

Jason Marsteller
February 17th, 2007, 08:31 PM
Just giving everyone a heads up that the next Masters A Day in the Life will start this week.

As requested, we will have a more "typical" Masters swimmer participating.

Laura Smith, a 36-year-old Masters swimmer from Denville, N.J., who trains with Garden State Masters will be our writer.

I'm looking forward to seeing what she comes up with as she prepares for a meet on Feb. 25.

Thanks for reading,

Jason Marsteller
Swimming World Magazine